★ np: SS UU Stage 5: Change is Gonna Come (Diggersby & Venusaur BANNED)

[HydreigonTheChild]

Its not as shit of a terrakion because it has tough claws boosted CC, crunch, psychic fangs, accelerock, and it is fast with a decent attack stat of 117



252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 282-333 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 304-359 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

terrakion is marginally stronger but it has more coverage and is able to outspeed terrakion and kill it, while accelerock has the ability to revenge kill other faster foes unlike terrakion

 

[Pluim]

Accelerock and Taunt are the only real reasons to use it over Terrakion, but it is at a very nice speed tier. The only thing faster than it outside of Scarfers is Talonflame who you just Accelerock to death.

Terrakion gets Taunt.
Lycanroc is just worse. Terrak was suspected because of its sheer power, while Lycanroc hits for lesser damage. Terrakion has a Fighting type, which is better, and provides additional STAB for CC. Justified is worse that Tough Claws but is still good.

 

[Monky25]

Now that the metagame has settled down for the most part, I feel we should approach the cases with the top dogs in the tier (Jirachi, Terrakion, slowking, lycanroc-dusk) in the form of suspect tests rather than a vote. I know charizard is still being looked at, but I feel that it's more along the lines of a council vote to determine if it's good or not rather than a full fledged suspect test. As for the suspect worthy mons, Jirachi is definitely the first priority. I liken jirachi to magearna in OU, who is already undergoing it's own suspect. Both are strong pokemon who have a vast amount of viable sets and excel at their jobs. I'd vote ban if a jirachi test occurred just due to the sheer amount of viable sets it has, the roles it can play, and it's great coverage which can beat all of it's checks. There was someone who mentioned something called the Schrodinger greninja theory, where you cannot assume which set jirachi is running due to the vast amount of viable sets (in his example it was magearna) so you have to assume it's running every set at once, meaning it can do some serious damage before you figure out what set it has. You could think it's physical so you switch into your rocky helmet skarm only to be screwed by thunder. It's ability, serene grace, which causes para and flinch hax a lot, doesnt help keeping jirachi either. Slowking I feel is manageable , we have many strong physical breakers who carry dark coverage while slowking is a good partner to them, I feel it's the least suspect worthy out of the 4 that are being talked about.

As for the Terrakion vs Lycanroc-dusk discussion, I find terrakion to be more problematic and lycanroc-dusk not to be suspect worthy. Lycanroc has a better ability in tough claws, accelrock priority, and better coverage like crunch, physic fangs, and endeavor. However, terrakion has a better attack stat, slightly lower speed, secondary fighting stab, and better bulk. Lycanroc dusk is also prone to being worn down due to it commonly using a life orb to boost it's damage, while terrakion can just slap on a choice band and do work. Overall, terrakions better bulk, secondary stab, and not needing to be reliant on life orb makes it much better to handle in the long run, while lycanroc's weak bulk and prone to being worn down allows it to fall to a neutral scarfer's attack much easier than terrakion does.

That's it on the suspect worthy mons, in my opinion. Jirachi should be the first one, terrakion should be next. Both lycanroc-dusk and slowking i feel dont need to be suspected and are fine as is. Charizard is a different case and i feel a vote would be better to determine the whole ending to the drought debate.

 

[kumiko]

okay guys let's chill out a bit.

1. this thread has been super lax on moderation and I think that's fine, but let's chill a bit with these types of super short & minimal content posts. short replies are generally fine but a couple posts here are a little too much and normally would just be deleted

2. Diggersby wasn't only banned because it hit too hard. It was an overwhelming presence in the tier and frankly something totally unhealthy. A few people on Council have expressed that they believe Diggersby didn't really get a fair shout because of Venusaur and Sun in general running the metagame, which is fair and something I agree with to an extent, which is why I'll give it a little more attention between now and when DLC drops in November, but we aren't immediately gonna vote on it again.

3. We are not voting on any of the Pokemon that are currently UUBL for a while. We voted on every single current UUBL Pokemon this month, whether it be just now banning it or voting to test it down again. Please don't suggest we vote on them again. The only exception would be if something that is OU by usage now drops back to UUBL, like Chansey.

4. You are underselling the shit out of Lycanroc-Dusk. If anything, it might just be better than Terrakion at running SD. Priority Accelrock + boosted Crunch cover a ton of things that Terrakion can't and is not really much weaker. If you don't have a Choice Scarf Krookodile, Jirachi, or Terrakion, you're in a lot of trouble against it after a boost. Lycanroc also has an insanely useful tool that Terrakion doesn't; the ability to revenge Terrakion reliably. Terrakion is probably better overall, but acting like it completely outclasses Lycanroc is just wrong and ill-informed. I'd recommend you try it out some more.

5. With that said, we'll be getting drops today so maybe we'll have bigger things to worry about

 

[Moutemoute]

Shifts for august are finally here, Sun take a big hit tho and one of our best staple is gone... the queen is dead long live the queen..

Blissey moved from UU to OU

Crawdaunt moved from UU to OU

Torkoal moved from RU to OU

Bisharp moved from OU to UU

 

[Jade]

Shifts for August are now out! Here are the changes that effect us:


Blissey moved from UU to OU
Crawdaunt moved from UU to OU
Torkoal moved from RU to OU

Bisharp moved from OU to UU

>free Venusaur
>people contemplate banning zard
>ban Venusaur bc sun was broken
>Venusaur rises from UUBL to OU, Torkoal rises to OU, essentially making sun a non issue

 

[Fusion Flare]

please sir...a crumb of techinician BP

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

Now, now, shifts certainly brought the Broken Teleport Blob out but we did just have a post from the TL about one-liners...

Any further one-liners, memes, and posts without informed substance will be deleted.

In terms of the tier, though, I'm really glad Blissey is gone. It did the same thing Slowking does in enabling the tier's wallbreakers as an excellent pivot on offense, except unlike Slowking it could come in on pretty much any passive Mon or special attackers thanks to its bulk and Natural Cure. Without it, and with Slowking potentially on the chopping block, I think the tier will be in a better place. I'm of the opinion that exceedingly bulky teleporters are inherently unhealthy and enable offense too much.

 

[Seucra Lockhart]

With blissey gone special attackers in general have recieved a huge buff in the UU tier but i'd like to focus on two that i think benefit the most from this.

Porygon-Z: While admittedly it could cripple blissey with trick with it's choice specs/scarf set it didn't appreciate being walled by every other set like double dance and life orb(also the opponent could just scout what set you were running).Porygon-Z is now free to run thoose sets as well.The life orb one in particular I think will be it's best set now.Adaptability +2 tri attack is nothing to scoff at and especially hard too almost impossible to switch in since ghosts falls too dark pulse/shadow ball.

Kyurem:I think this one is self explanatory but before DLC 1 kyurem was a top tier threat in ou with nothing being able to switch into it.Buuut then chansey came and completely laughed in it's face as it fell to UU.In UU however even with blissey still in the tier it could easily wall than pivot but still, in the tier kyurem remained a solid offensive threat.Now that blissey is gone kyurem's wallbreaking potential has been upped to 11 and may even be suspect test worthy now.(Although of course it's too early to tell)

 

[okispokis]

I have to keep this quick, but between the tier shift and the rebans I had a few thoughts.

Kyurem
So, Blissey is no longer available and pretty much every other Rem defensive check has fallen off a cliff in terms of usage. Tyranitar is pretty much the only defensive answer left in UU, as the free SpD boost allows it to blank anything bar a rare Focus Miss. I think we’ll see more Ttar just to counteract Specs Rem. Now, I know I’ve said before that Rem struggles against a lot of fast offensive mons, but even that only goes so far when only one mon can safely switch in anymore.

Sun
Sun just lost both its best setter and its best abuser; nevertheless, I still think Sun is good in UU, just not as good. We still have the power of SP Specs Zard and a decent setter in Ninetales, which recently got buffed with the new addition of Scorching Sands. Sun still has plenty of players to use such as Shiftry (who is now the de facto Chloro cleaner), Darmanitan with nuclear Flare Blitz, and even a backup SP attacker in Heliolisk. Comparatively, the biggest weakness of Sun now is that you now need to dedicate a slot to hazard removal; my preferred option is Defog Skarm, if only because it’s Skarm and I prefer not stacking more Rock or Ground weaknesses.

Screens
Offensive teams recently lost a fantastic pivot in Teleport Blissey, as negative priority means not having to hard switch in your frail wall breakers and sweepers. As such, I think Screens are naturally poised to surge in popularity as they’re the next best thing for safe switch ins. Grimmsnarl is pretty much already a guaranteed on HO, but he’s probably looking to see a rise in popularity on less hyper offensive teams.

Slowking
Between the loss of Bliss and other Specially Defensive mons dropping off, Slowking is basically the only reliable SpD wall with recovery. I know people are talking about a suspect, but honestly I think we need some defensive glue right now. Or maybe this need for SpD is what finally lets Goodra be proper UU (although Rem won’t make it easy).

Bisharp
The only new drop this month, I’m not sure what the deal with this guy will be. Sure, he’s got muscle, but the faster paced meta and Fighting abundance mean Sharp may have an uphill battle in finding a place in UU. Still, STAB Knock Off and Sucker Punch, solid attack + SD, and a good ability in Defiant are definitely something.

That’s all for now. Let’s see how this next week goes.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

I think sub roost kyurem is even more busted, cuz the only thing that could stop it from clicking buttons was blissey, and its gone... so what counters are left to sub roost kyurem.... which to that I only find sylveon and magnet rise klefki with play rough + t wave/toxic. Kyurem is very good and its offensively checked by a shit ton of things but behind a sub that goes down to a couple who can tank a hit and still retaliate

 

[BigFatMantis]

I think sub roost kyurem is even more busted, cuz the only thing that could stop it from clicking buttons was blissey, and its gone... so what counters are left to sub roost kyurem.... which to that I only find sylveon and magnet rise klefki with play rough + t wave/toxic. Kyurem is very good and its offensively checked by a shit ton of things but behind a sub that goes down to a couple who can tank a hit and still retaliate

Tyranitar handles subroost Kyurem pretty easily, since it doesn't have room for Focus Blast. There's still some decent counters for specs set too (Sylveon with SpD invest), especially if you protect scout it. It's pretty good, but I don't really see it taking over the tier, at least not from what I saw today. Jirachi also counters all Kyurem sets pretty easily as long as you don't switch in to Earth Power. Diggersby was much more of a guessing game problem.

Speaking of which, re-iterating my stance on a Jirachi suspect sometime in the future. I don't see anything else that's really that upsetting/problematic compared to it.

 

[mashonem]

Jirachi also counters all Kyurem sets pretty easily as long as you don't switch in to Earth Power.

that would make it a "check", not a counter

also, as much as I hate fat/tele mons, suspecting slowking doesn't feel like the thing to do, especially now that we lost blissey. i'm just hoping those people calling for it are just ladder frustrated as opposed to being serious.

 

[Empress Mobile]

Actually, there is a line, but it's really hard to pinpoint. Banning Drought to preserve Venusaur and Charizard was done for abilities like Moody and Shadow Tag and even moves like Baton Pass.

It's not as simple as "two Pokémon becomes banworthy with Drought, so Drought is the problem". Why don't we just ban Hustle to preserve Durant and Dracozolt when those two are proven to be bamworthy only with Hustle? This logic also carries on to moves and items.

I don't really support a Drought ban at this time, but I think this is a misrepresentation. Shadow Tag, Moody and Baton Pass were banned because they were considered uncompetitive regardless of user. Also, the difference between Drought and Hustle is that Hustle only benefits its users whereas Drought enables a playstyle with many abusers. It's why Drought was banned in previous generations. I don't necessarily agree with the approach, especially now, but it's not about "preserving" Pokemon of questionable non-Sun viability in the tier but rather about maintaining the simplicity of tier rules until it is no longer reasonable to do so. It is a bit of a gray area since Drought is potentially competitive within the tier given the correct surroundings and list of abusers within the tier. Ninetales is also, imo, a decent standalone wallbreaker, though generally outclassed by the abusers it enables in such a role.

 

[The Amphy]

A bit late to the party but I can't be the only one relieved that TeleportBliss+BandDaunt is gone. OU plz keep them. To not make this a one liner I'm gonna drop my thoughts on some mons.

This thing is lowkey really good. I've been using the standard defensive CM set (CM, psyshock, draining kiss, mystical fire) and have had a lot of success with it. It annoys hazard setters (especially Skarm), breaks bulkier teams and checks fightings/dragons. I can't tell you the number of times this thing has just ended games. It also has great coverage and 308 special attack even when uninvested which allows it hit decently hard when non boosted. I also think Nuzzle is a pretty underutilized tech which allows it to punish switch ins such as Jirachi. Been pairing it with Wish support which helps it play a bit more aggressive against hazard setters.

This may just be me but I think the washing machine is at a all time high. It's just so splashable and always manages to pull its weight either by getting momentum, spreading status, checking annoying mons, sweeping/breaking with NP or defoging. I've been using a bulkier set with Rocky Helmet which is great at punishing scarf Jirachi and other physical attackers.

I haven't seen a lot of people talk about this thing which is surprising as it's really good. I've personally been using Hurricane Noivern to keep it in check which is pretty shaky as it can get overpowered by specs, Icy Wind or Hurricane misses. Other than Specs I've seen a lot of sub+CM which is great at abusing most Jirachi. Just a really solid mon right now which doesn't get enough praise.

This may just be me but I haven't found this thing to be broken yet. Perhaps I haven't been flinched enough? Although it's extremely flexible I haven't once built specifically for it and most checks fit naturally onto teams. In my latest team I've been using physdef Rotom-W and spdef Rachi which checks most if not all sets and pivots on it. Not saying it doesn't deserve to get looked at but I'm not convinced it's broken or too flexible yet.

 

[BigFatMantis]

View attachment 266816 This may just be me but I haven't found this thing to be broken yet. Perhaps I haven't been flinched enough? Although it's extremely flexible I haven't once built specifically for it and most checks fit naturally onto teams. In my latest team I've been using physdef Rotom-W and spdef Rachi which checks most if not all sets and pivots on it. Not saying it doesn't deserve to get looked at but I'm not convinced it's broken or too flexible yet.

I don't think Jirachi is totally overpowering - I just think a large number of people abuse the uncompetitive strategy it allows. It also has a lot of different viable sets, so you can't even reliably send in Skarm anymore because you don't know if it's going to use Thunder.

Without Serene Grace abuse, it's actually still a very good mon for UU and checks a lot of things. With Serene Grace abuse though, it is just really frustrating to lose solely because of a flinch, or two, or three, or eight, when you otherwise had it handled.

 

[Schpoonman]

I don't think Jirachi is totally overpowering - I just think a large number of people abuse the uncompetitive strategy it allows. It also has a lot of different viable sets, so you can't even reliably send in Skarm anymore because you don't know if it's going to use Thunder.

Without Serene Grace abuse, it's actually still a very good mon for UU and checks a lot of things. With Serene Grace abuse though, it is just really frustrating to lose solely because of a flinch, or two, or three, or eight, when you otherwise had it handled.

This is a great way to put it. It's a solid Steel-type with very wide coverage and decent stats and fantastic role compression that lets it pressure both bulky and offensive builds, but Serene Grace with its movepool pushes it to overbearing. Thunderbolt would almost certainly see exclusive usage over Thunder if it weren't for the 60% chance to paralyze.

 

[BigFatMantis]

What does everyone think about Zarude for UU? I think it has no chance of staying in OU past a month, since so many things there counter it and Urshifu is just generally better. So I think we should expect it dropping down to UU next month or the month after once the New Mon Syndrome wears off from it.

I think it might even be too weak for UU personally with so much Skarmory around. It doesn't get Knock Off, which is a huge blow since it can't punish a switch-out. Its speed tier, while good, is also the same as Scyther and Mienshao, both of which effectively OHKOs it (without a boost). Then you have all the U-Turners besides those two like Flygon, Jirachi, Darmanitan, even Noivern, etc, that do 4x damage to it. I can't see any way that this thing stays viable in UU play. I almost feel like it's worse in UU than in OU. Any other thoughts?

 

[ViZar]

What does everyone think about Zarude for UU? I think it has no chance of staying in OU past a month, since so many things there counter it and Urshifu is just generally better. So I think we should expect it dropping down to UU next month or the month after once the New Mon Syndrome wears off from it.

I think it might even be too weak for UU personally with so much Skarmory around. It doesn't get Knock Off, which is a huge blow since it can't punish a switch-out. Its speed tier, while good, is also the same as Scyther and Mienshao, both of which effectively OHKOs it (without a boost). Then you have all the U-Turners besides those two like Flygon, Jirachi, Darmanitan, even Noivern, etc, that do 4x damage to it. I can't see any way that this thing stays viable in UU play. I almost feel like it's worse in UU than in OU. Any other thoughts?

I think it wil have dark type competition in Bisharp, Krook, Incin, Ttar and Obstagoon, but I think it will be viable due to its decent bulk and good offensive typing.
But I also think, that it is going to be RU or RUBL.

 

[Moutemoute]

I think we are the 6th august so talking about the next shifts when we just got july ones is kinda meh.
While it appears at first that Zarude isn't great in OU, it has been only a few hours since it has been released so I don't think it's really relevant to theorizing on a Pokemon like that since we have no idea if it will drop or not. Let's focus on our own tier which has already changed since a few days because of shifts.

edit

happy 1111 posts to myself

 

[KSt3ve]

Hello There !

With new drops arriving recently, many viable dark pokemons have arrived in the tier. So I'd like to propose you a new set of Bronzong, an anti dark type set :

Bronzong @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish / Bold Nature
- Body Press
- Heavy Slam / Psychic
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

colbur berry allows you to 1v1 most of the dark pokemons in the tier. heavy slam allows you to pass fairy pokemons like sylveon, weezing-galar, Hatterene ... While psychic allows you to rather do a lot of damage to pokemon combat like keldeo, mienshao but also on weezing-galar, toxtricity ...

DMG CALC

252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Bronzong: 133-157 (39.3 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Def Bronzong Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 356-420 (131.3 - 154.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Bronzong: 144-169 (42.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Def Bronzong Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 328-388 (96.1 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 188-224 (55.6 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Incineroar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Bronzong: 76-91 (22.4 - 26.9%) -- 37.1% chance to 4HKO

252+ Def Bronzong Body Press vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Incineroar: 172-204 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Bronzong: 96-114 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 128-152 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Def Bronzong Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Krookodile: 107-126 (32.3 - 38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Def Bronzong Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 214-252 (64.6 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 162-192 (47.9 - 56.8%) -- 86.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Def Bronzong Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Obstagoon: 352-416 (107.6 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 218-260 (64.4 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Def Bronzong Body Press vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 218-258 (65.6 - 77.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes

Some replays :

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1164889701-ff6guxqz6fhu76517fny5decuue5x4zpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1164889701-ff6guxqz6fhu76517fny5decuue5x4zpw

 

[Bad feeling]

Here to say. Shedinja is viable.

SS gifts HDB for Shedinja. Sand stream's users don't dominate the metagame because fighting, ground and steel pokemons are hegemonic. Top threads like Keldeo, Slowking, Jirachi, Rotom-, Celebi, Cobalion, Kyurem, Toxtricity and Starmie are stopped by Shedinja if they have not the good movepool, most of the time, they don't. So, the metagame trends to be favorable for Shed'.
Extension Pack gives a nice stab in Poltergeist, even if it lacks synergy with knock off spam (one of the best defensive tactics), poltergeist hits hard enough to 3HKO bisharp and scouts your opponent item.
Shedinja gives a tool for defensive teams to keep momentum against volturn and a way to deal with NP Celebi and CM Reuniclus.

I'm #6 with a shedstall. The cursed bug has potential in UU.

 

[Liquidocelot]

Here to say. Shedinja is viable.

SS gifts HDB for Shedinja. Sand stream's users don't dominate the metagame because fighting, ground and steel pokemons are hegemonic. Top threads like Keldeo, Slowking, Jirachi, Rotom-, Celebi, Cobalion, Kyurem, Toxtricity and Starmie are stopped by Shedinja if they have not the good movepool, most of the time, they don't. So, the metagame trends to be favorable for Shed'.
Extension Pack gives a nice stab in Poltergeist, even if it lacks synergy with knock off spam (one of the best defensive tactics), poltergeist hits hard enough to 3HKO bisharp and scouts your opponent item.
Shedinja gives a tool for defensive teams to keep momentum against volturn and a way to deal with NP Celebi and CM Reuniclus.

I'm #6 with a shedstall. The cursed bug has potential in UU.

You're the Shedninja guy! Gg's man, that team is fucking wicked and despite making me incredibly angry, it just floored me and made me reconsider my entire team I'm running.

I can definitely vouch, Shedninja with good teammates and HDB destroys volt turn like it's nothing.

 

[BigFatMantis]

I noticed a rise in Magneton usage earlier this month to combat Skarmory. Skarmory is such an important mon in this new meta, and Magneton almost totally invalidates it (as long as it's faster).

Now, I am seeing much less Skarmory than I saw last month. I think this may be a reaction to the Magneton threat? I wouldn't be surprised if Magneton jumps from NU to UU next month.

I've tried using Magneton myself, mostly to try to trap the unfortunate/cheap scarfhead Jirachis. While it works on scarfhead Jirachi, it doesn't work on most other variants because of U-Turn. Jirachi is still, to me, the most problematic mon in the tier right now. No matter which set it runs, it always has a backup Iron Head flinch chance to lean on that can switch the momentum very quickly.

 

[Pabloaram]

I noticed a rise in Magneton usage earlier this month to combat Skarmory. Skarmory is such an important mon in this new meta, and Magneton almost totally invalidates it (as long as it's faster).

Now, I am seeing much less Skarmory than I saw last month. I think this may be a reaction to the Magneton threat? I wouldn't be surprised if Magneton jumps from NU to UU next month.

Magneton + "mon walled by Skarmory" was a thing in the last meta. The set i runed mostly was Chopple Berry Magneton bc you can hard switch into Skarmory without having the risk of Body Press having a chance of ohko if Skarm was 252+def...