np: SS UU Stage 8.2 - Cherry (Latias BANNED)

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TDK

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:latias:

hello all, the UU metagame has calmed down a lot since the rapid fire tier shifts immediately following our latest DLC expansion, but there are still of multitude of potential problems with the tier. The UU Council has decided that the biggest and probable one is Latias.

Latias is no new face to being top tier in UU. During multiple points throughout the generation in SM, Latias was called for to be banned, largely due to its power backed by Z Moves. Latias ultimately would always struggle with Pursuit, however, and mandated a vast majority of teams carry it. However, this generation does not have Pursuit. Latias can run wild with no fear of being trapped, leading to safely clicking attacks with a virtually unwallable moveset at its disposal. Despite losing the ability to use Z Moves and Hidden Power, Latias makes due thanks to Mystical Fire granting it superb coverage. Latias is incredibly fast, strong, and bulky enough to make it a huge nuisance to take on.

Within this metagame, there's very limited counterplay. Steel-types like Celesteela and Jirachi struggle to be reliable, both due to Mystical Fire and their relative lack of a way to immediately subdue Latias. Dark and Fairy-types both are nailed by Latias' other STAB coverage, both of which blow away everything other than very bulky counterplay, such as Moltres-Galar and Hatterene. Bulky pivots, such as Slowking, are very reliable at shrugging off attacks from the Life Orb + 3 Attacks + Recover / Roost set, but sacrifice all counterplay against a Calm Mind set. Slowking will take too much damage to comfortably regenerate it off, and will only work to come in once. Choice Scarf Pokemon, while capable of OHKOing Latias, will not be able to switch into it without some risky predictions.

Latias has all the tools necessary to run rampant and be a very low risk Pokemon. Draco Meteor + Psychic / Psyshock + Mystical Fire has incredible coverage in this metagame, and with Latias' speed tier, it makes incredible use of it. Latias can opt for Calm Mind or Recover / Roost depending upon what the user decides they value more, or even opt to drop one of the three big moves in favor of being walled by something relevant for a greater threat in the long run.

Even with all this in mind, Latias is not perfect. It does not have the immediate power to sufficiently OHKO a lot of things it really wants to. Most notably, Latias faces a challenge with its item of choice, due to a lack of Z Moves. Life Orb is the all around best item for Latias, as it boosts all three of its very important moves, but at a great cost. The recoil comes into play at multiple junctures during games, and can force the Latias user to sacrifice momentum, as Latias is frequently found being used for defensive utility, thanks to its speed tier. Soul Dew is an alternative, but the lessened power on Mystical Fire is incredibly relevant and turns non-Scizor Steel-types into great short term answers.

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430


Other than that, the test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UU8L (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UU8L TDK to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

Participants will have until Wednesday, February 3rd at 8:59 PM GMT -5 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. PLEASE DO NOT POST YOUR CONFIRMED SUSPECT RESULTS HERE - there is a dedicated thread for identifying your suspect results. Happy laddering!



 
2386B9C1-AA0A-41DB-ADA4-4F68484A21EF.jpeg

(Sorry if my phone makes the picture look huge)

I’m at work right now so I’ll give my quick thoughts on Latias: it’s broken and unhealthy. The best Latias counterplay we currently have (realistically) in the tier consists of slapping a Slowking on your team, eating a Draco, then teleporting out to something that can offensively check it. Flame Orb + Stored Power sets always do more on paper than in practice, until you forget to account for it & actually run into it then realize how annoying it is if given free turns. CM sets are still very hard to deal with given that most faster threats don’t wanna switch into it and most slower ones get nuked. All our Fairy-types barely check it because of how strong LO Psychic is - I’ve even tried (and enjoyed) using Diancie and SpDef Togekiss, who can only really afford to switch in once if at full health. The things that actually counter it easily, like Stakataka, have shown in tours to be bad for other reasons.

The most compelling argument for keeping it that I’ve heard from chatting around has been how good of a “splashable” check it is to a lot of other offensive mons, i.e. but not limited to Keldeo, Terrakion, Bulu, Victini, you get the point. Base 110 Speed + Electric resist + Water resist + Ground immune for offensive teams is unheard of and this could lead to other mons getting out of hand real quick. But as some of you may know, I tend to be a little more strict than most on the teambuilding aspect of judging whether a mon is healthy for the tier or not.

In the current state of the tier, I believe Latias offers way too much offensive utility with no drawbacks. If you don’t have bulky Psychics on your team (Slowking, Hatterene, and.. AV Reuni??) and/or faster things like Zeraora/Scarf Krook that can actually threaten it out, you’ll be weak to it. At least in SM we had Pursuit to punish it. If banning it means we have to suspect Terrakion or whatever else, then so be it, but I firmly believe no Latias eventually means a better tier. For these reasons I’ll be voting to ban it after I get reqs.
 
So I've already talked about my stance on latias, and I'm pretty much going to repeat that but also add things unto it.

I don't think Latias should be S tier and this isn't because they aren't a really good Pokemon, because they are. I think Latias-especially it's specs set-is quite difficult to switch into and should be taken seriously. VERY seriously. That being said...

Latias has to eternally deal with the fact that both of it's stabs are resisted by one type-those being the omnipresent steels-and this can be quite frustrating for pretty much every set. Mystical Fire is neat but not very good without a solid boost. For example:

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 190-226 (47 - 55.9%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Jirachi can u-turn out, or thunder wave, or wish, or any combo of the two.

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 138-164 (34.7 - 41.3%) -- 67.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Heavy slam 2hkos Latias on average and it has leech seed to fuck you up plenty for even attempting this.

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 208-247 (74 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO . Pretty decent but then you take a flash cannon and are forced to roost. Alternatively, they could steel beam and do 86% minimum.

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stakataka: 95-112 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 3% chance to 3HKO. Pretty bad considering this is the offensive variant with trick room and gyro ball.

Contrary to popular belief, draco meteor also has a lot of surprisingly solid switchins. These include Jirachi, Celesteela, Staka, fairy types (bar Azumarill), Chansey, etc. If you want to include really nice stuff, there's also incineroar and registeel. Calm Mind + Recover isn't enough to beat these mons since they either threaten status, or just straight up 2hko you with stabs.

Then there is the specs set, which actually does fix these problems as most of the abovementioned calcs get irrelevant when coming from choice specs latias-but choice specs itself actually introduces a few problems of it's own. There is the mandatory Draco Meteor and Psychic, but trick is also great, you still want mystical fire to at least be able to hit steels, but you still like recover and even defog. Specs Latias solves it's power issues but then adds another problem in the form of severe 4mss.

Defensively, latias also has some struggles. Knockoff's omnipresence in the tier means it always has to fear losing an item and being forced out in the same turn. It's also quite vulnerable to being toxic'd, which is a death sentence for the cm set and forces latias to recover a lot more than it should. It definitely has it's merits (beating azumarill if not severely chipped, beating nihilego if it has psyshock/is faster) and offers a lot more on defense than most offensive Pokemon, and I don't want to downplay this mon too badly so I'll stop there...
As far as I can tell, Latias can be a very difficult pokemon to switch into-but I don't see it as overwhelmingly unhealthy, at least compared to some of the other monsters in UU. Case in point: Terrakion and Zeraora.

Band Terrakion has two less points of speed than latias, and this doesn't really change much for it. In fact, the only bad thing about this is that it loses to other Latias. In return, however, Band Terrakion has no realistic counterplay that isn't in RU. Observe:

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 408-480 (103.8 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (ain't nobody running max phys def slowking with latias around)
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (megahorn also does sixty minimum if you need extra power)
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 220-259 (50.9 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory: 177-208 (52.9 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Kommo-o: 195-229 (55 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 292-345 (72.2 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With just it's stab combo, Terrakion beats the vast majority of physical walls in the tier. And it is considered a fine mon with plenty of counterplay despite practically being just as fast. ~~Now add future sight into the equation~~.

Then you have Zeraora practically forcing every single team in the tier to run a ground type, lest they get pivoted on to hell and back. It has perfect coverage, the best speed in the tier, and a massive offensive presence. A team isn't really considered viable if it has no volt switch switchin.

Admittedly, there are quite a lot of good ground types in the tier, but the exact same thing can be said for Latias. Hell, most of latias's switchins are pretty good if not outright great (slowking, jirachi, celesteela, chansey-which wasn't even mentioned in the above post despite being the most consistent answer to every set), so I find Latias's answers relatively splashable in comparison to Zeraora's answers (ground types that lose an item and become far less effective) and terrakion's answers (a really sturdy combination of mons/prayer).


All this being said, there's no guarantee that terrakion won't get sent to the shadow realm after the Latias ban. On it's own I still don't think it's too unhealthy but it becomes a lot easier to justify banning latias when other similarly ridiculous mons are gone.
 
Just wanted to clarify some points that Err0r Mobutt made on their post.
With just it's stab combo, Terrakion beats the vast majority of physical walls in the tier. And it is considered a fine mon with plenty of counterplay despite practically being just as fast. ~~Now add future sight into the equation~~.
Some of us on the council, myself included, have brought up Terrakion multiple times as potentially unhealthy, so I wouldn’t say that it’s considered fine and is just as fast. Two Speed points is a lot, and avoiding ties vs opposing Terrak, Keldeo, and getting outsped by Lycanroc is pretty big. On top of that, Terrak has worse bulk, worse resistances, and no recovery when compared to Latias, which is huge for offensive teams. It’s much harder to bring Terrakion in and you have to play rather aggressively for it to get free turns. Regardless, I don’t think that comparing Terrakion vs Zeraora vs Latias is the point here, and I think you also downplayed some of Latias’s answers quite a bit.

Admittedly, there are quite a lot of good ground types in the tier, but the exact same thing can be said for Latias. Hell, most of latias's switchins are pretty good if not outright great (slowking, jirachi, celesteela, chansey-which wasn't even mentioned in the above post despite being the most consistent answer to every set), so I find Latias's answers relatively splashable in comparison to Zeraora's answers (ground types that lose an item and become far less effective) and terrakion's answers (a really sturdy combination of mons/prayer).
As I stated in my post, Slowking is a decent answer for what we have right now, but even that can struggle to switch into two Dracos if it’s not at full or if Lati CMs. Jirachi is shaky considering that non SpDef sets take 70 from Mystical Fire, and if you make it SpDef you miss out on a lot of important things (Kyurem being one for example) that you’d normally want to outspeed and still can’t switch in more than once without being stuck in endless Wish loops. Defensive Celesteela also gets chipped throughout the game easily and the metagame has adapted to it a lot, and with Mystical Fire + SR + it being Knocked and/or Leech recovery blocked by Grasses, I wouldn’t even consider it an amazing answer. Chansey is a good answer until you notice it only really viably fits on stall and still loses to Flame Orb sets.
 
Suspect tests are always exciting :),
and now about Latias

There is no denying that latias is an incredibly powerful force that isnt only strong and bulky but also splashable however I do not feel that it is overpowering the tier to the point it needs to be banned, the counterplay that we have is not only viable but also fairly common as the people who already mentioned it slowking (and chansey) can pivot effectively into latias and bring in on of the many mons that can outspeed and kill it, this not including the counters like reuniclus and hatterenne, it is not an unwallable force.
while latias offers a great variety of sets they can be dealt with using similar strategies, which means we do not have an aegislash situation on our hands.

When we are talking about a mon that needs to get banned we need to consider that we are banning it because it is broken/uncompetitive/unhealthy for the meta.
With latias going will we have a more competitive and skilled based meta? not really since latias needs skillful play and a well thought out plan to overcome its checks/counters (and isnt just clicky clacky)
Does almost every mon benefits from its removal from the tier? I guess...? removing one of the top dogs will benefit the other lesser top dogs however I personally think latias holds down a bunch of other mons from going rampant forcing us to go into a big series of bans

I do see the arguments of the pro-ban side and it wouldnt be THAT detrimental to ban it but for the moment I will vote not ban.
 
Hatterene is a someone that I feel is underused and should be used more and is actually checks Latias really well.

Being a fairy that beats Scizor is so incredibly good.

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hatterene: 240-284 (75.4 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hatterene: 211-250 (66.3 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Offensive Trick Room may not be as good but its still a roll against lo Scizor

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hatterene: 291-346 (91.5 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

And Mystical Fire always OHKOS

0 SpA Hatterene Mystical Fire vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 340-404 (109.3 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Hatterene Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 340-404 (98.8 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Like I said in the beginng, this thing checks, maybe even counters Latias. It's not even that passive as Offensive Trick Room can be a huge threat to dragons, and Calm Mind being hard to beat. (Has anyone tried CM Kee Berry?)

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 94-110 (29.5 - 34.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 82-97 (25.7 - 30.5%) -- 4.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Draining Kiss 37.8 - 44.5% (27 - 31.7% recovered)

Even a max roll Mystical Fire, the best thing it can do to Hat, still gets it back to full. Now this is really good until your tricked, but countering the set that makes Latias broken is very good.
 

vivalospride

what you eat dont make me shit
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got my reqs


here is team it felt v good

will edit opinion on lati at some point but p sure it's busted

[05:35] uu8l ramo: did u
[05:35] uu8l ramo: shared that sticky team
[05:36] %vivalospride: ye
[05:36] %vivalospride: put it in np thread
[05:36] uu8l ramo: why.
[05:36] uu8l ramo: i lost to it.
 
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Alright so i got reqs with some turbo fat semi stall godsquad w sub kyurem + subseed celesteela and honestly even tho i ain't play this tier outside that latias never really felt overbearing for me. I know its a balance killer and all that, but truthfully when i laddered it underperformed. It never felt like i saw latias on the opposing team and went "bro im terrified god save the queen" but maybe thats because i had celesteela and scarf krook. I will say though that i definitely did some merry little dances around Latias each time it entered but truthfully it never really felt broken atall. However, i feel like it can definitely become broken as with the way OU is right now, all if its members feel locked in besides like Dragonite, so i don't think we'll see any drops back down to change up the meta much to make latias easier to handle. I personally don't know which i'll be voting but this is just what i feel. If someone wants to convince me to either side go right ahead but personally i'm like split.
 
I got recently reqs with Moltracer ' stall team (which gave me two reqs until now). After 30-4, I just can say that I did not feel Latias overwhelming. It is true that can run many different sets and if you are not prepared it can create big holes in your bench. However, there are enough Pokémon that can stop it as Chansey is totally splashed in the tier and other sp def Pokémon (i.e. Porygon2). Dark type Pokémon are also abundant and they can check it offensively. I would like to see more discussion but, a priori, I would bote do not ban.

SS UU Latias Suspect Reqs.JPG

Tl;dr; Latias is an amazing Pokémon with several functions. However, there is enough counterplay in spdef Pokémon and Dark type Pokémon to check it.
 

Lilburr

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I will be voting ban on Latias and I really, really urge people to do the same. I explained why last week but to reiterate in simpler terms, here are the main issues I have with Latias in UU.

Latias does have decentish counterplay - most of this revolves around using either Celesteela to switch into it and praying they don't have something that can block your Leech Seed, or using Slowking to pivot in and then using Teleport to bring in something like Zeraora or Scarf Krook or whatever. Beyond that though there really isn't much. Jirachi is just forced into awkward Wish cycles and can't rlly do anything back, Sylveon and Diancie are okay answers but generally poor Pokemon, and other Steels like Scizor or w/e aren't very useful against it. Consider that you need at least two checks and then you see why teambuilding is so constricted at the moment, you're forced to use something like Slowking + Zera/Krook or Celesteela + Zera/Krook on literally every team, which in turn forces Grasses on every team to deal with Zera/Krook... you get the idea. Every team looks pretty much the same these days outside of cheese, and people don't like it, which is why you see so much cheese.

The list of offensive checks it has is pretty low, limited to essentially the aforementioned Zera and Krook, CB Sciz, Mamoswine, uhhh Zydog??? Bisharp??? it's rlly small. And these offensive checks aren't even consistent. They're beaten up by sets like Flame Orb or CM Colbur (or even Yache!). Keep in mind that this list of like, 8 mons that can maybe check it, is only for the 3atks + Roost set. It doesn't even begin to factor in Offensive CM, CM Colbur, Flame Orb, Weakness Policy, Grassy Seed, Scarf, Specs, like there's just way too much this thing can do. I don't think it's impossible to handle but I feel the term would be better off long-term if it were gone.

On the Terrak/Zera/whatever else discussion - you're totally free to feel like those mons are unhealthy. I think Terrak is unhealthy too! And while this is the metagame discussion thread and you're free to speak your mind here, keep in mind that the ongoing suspect test is for Latias and nothing else - the statement "we should be testing something else instead of lati" doesn't really help much. Give your opinion on other stuff of course but be sure to keep things on topic at the same time. If we feel there's enough demand for a test for something else later on down the line then we'll definitely get one out.
 
requirements UU suspect.png


My opinions on Latias:

Latias, yeah, the red eon Pokemon, begging to be as good as its twin brother that remained OU. In gen 7, Latias was manageable in the UU tier. Lack of coverage bar Hidden Power Fire to hit steel types effectively, Pursuit existance, and Mega Stones/Z moves blocking its attempt to Trick, all of that meant that Latias was not too much for the tier. It was very good, but not broken. Here comes gen 8. So sure Latias lost Z crystals that helped it muscle past a lot of would be checks such as Slowking and AV Primarina, but it also highly benefited from Pursuit's removal and Z crystal/Mega stones removal as well. Scizor can no longer Pursuit trap it to punish Latias for going for Draco Meteor, nar can Krookodile. Latias also gained new devastating tools in Mystical Fire and Aura Sphere, the former giving it the coverage it seeked for so long to hit Steel types, and most notably letting it roast Scizor properly, whereas the second let it hit Dark Types without dropping its Special Attack with Draco Meteor, while hitting Grimmsnarl harder than Mystical Fire, giving it more consistency in sweeping. But you are going to say, "well ok, but Slowking and Primarina can still check it right? so can Chansey with its absurd bulk and Eviolite right? Well you are not wrong, but Chansey needs to be careful of not letting its Eviolite get Knocked Off, can be wear down by entry hazards, to the point it is in range of +1 Psyshock from Life Orb variants. Concerning Slowking and Primarina, here what makes in my opinion Latias broken in the tier: Trick.

To explain my thoughts, last gen Trick was manageable and could be played around by switching in your Z cristal user or a Mega Pokemon, so that would spell doom for Latias especially in Mega Aerodactyl's case, as it could Pursuit trap it after it switched into Trick. But with all that stuff removed from the game, Trick became a risk free move, especially against defensive teams. Afraid of Slowking switching into you and clicking teleport to pivot? Just trick it a Choice Scarf. Even deadlier against defensive teams and with a little of team support, some Latias sets could run even Trick+Calm Mind sets, with just two attacking moves. If you trick the right Pokemon that annoy you, you could sweep late game. Trick also help Latias teammates immensely, Trick the opposing Celesteela and your Kyurem will have fun. Trick the Chansey? Nihilego might sweep late game. And Latias also had one last tool for its Hyper offensive teammates to benefit: Healing Wish. Having Latias with healing wish in the back mean that you can play very aggressively with your wallbreakers even in case you get burned or Toxic, cause Latias is there to fully heal them at the cost of her life.

But Latias is also a defensive behemoth. 80/90/130 is great bulk by UU standards, and its typing lets it wall the likes of Volcanion, Tapu Bulu, the Rotom forms, Slowking, and Thundurus lacking Dark Pulse or Ice type Weather ball. It has also access to Recover and Defog, which allows it to consistenly remove entry hazards. Mystical Fire's effect of dropping Special Attack could even let Latias fair well against Calm Mind users that doesn't pack anything to touch it super effectively such as Galarian Slowbro or just wear down slow special attackers too. Cause yes, Latias is fast for a defensive Pokemon. 110 speed, faster than things like Kyurem and Krookodile. Faster than Nihilego. One of the fastest Pokemon in the tier.

But, there's also some things that Latias is needed for. It's probably the best go to check to Nasty Plot Thundurus T, being faster than it and being able to threaten it with Ice Beams or Draco Meteors and can check Terrakion decently. Without Latias in the tier, some Pokemon would become much stronger, such as Thundurus T, Swords Dance Terrakion, and Tapu Bulu.

But what i said above doesn't change my mind at all. And i'm voting towards a BAN for the red Eon Pokemon from Pokemon Sapphire (plus it would be another BL Knight for blunder and PokeaimMD to play so i can't complain about that)
 

Ramolost

parfum quartier
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been busy but i'll post quick thoughts :
tias is overwhelming and broken. its basically what ip said but this guy is so dumb so i wont quote him. its a pain to check all i do is slapping slowking spdef w twave + a scarfed dark to be safe and even w that i lose to it. there is no really counterplay beside revenge killing it with something faster and even that can be problematic against things like seed tias. no steel realisticly check tias, chansey struggle to do it. the best fairy to do so is spdef girmmsnarl which is something i wont use or hatt but hatt lose the 1v1 against some tias. the mon is just dumb and while it definitly add something to the metagame i still dont think its healthy to keep it, and getting rid of latias means getting rids of other things but then so be it, the broken shouldnt check the broken. i'll obviously vote ban.
vivalospride im so proud of you well done chief one day you will be a great player maybe as good as Juno
 

BigFatMantis

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Got reqs - took 45 games for me. In all 45 games I never once felt any pressure from Latias whatsoever. So if I were to just base my vote on what I experienced in laddering for reqs, which is what I think is supposed to happen, I would obviously vote no ban.

But I will take it a step further to discuss some other points:

:ss/Latias:

In the past month or so of laddering, I have never thought that Latias was really that bad. I've seen almost all the sets - Grassy Seed, Flame Orb, Specs, Scarf, and the LO 3 attacks which is clearly the best. I've also used Latias on some teams - Seed/Calm Mind, Scarf, and LO 3 attack sets. I felt that only the LO 3 attack set was particularly overpowering. The other sets were ok, but had too much counterplay to them.

Since LO 3 attack set is the most threatening imo, I think it's important to list potential checks to it:

:Chansey: Chansey totally stops it. In fact, Chansey totally stops almost every Latias set except for Flame Orb set. But the Flame Orb set is kind of not good? So, if you're using that, then you're not really using the best Latias and now you aren't quite doing enough damage to things like Slowking and Hatterne or even basic stuff like Mew.

:Hatterene: Hatterene also stops most Latias sets entirely. Yes Mystical Fire will lower your Special Attack, but after a few Calm Minds there's not much Latias is going to be able to do at all to it (and Calm Mind has double the PP of MFire). In a Calm Mind war, after both are +6, Draining Kiss will deal ~38 at +5 and then ~30 at +4 and then Latias is forced to start roosting while you boost again or keep pressuring it OR switch out to an offensive check. BUT, again, CM is not the best Latias set, and the other LO set is easier for Hatterne to check. CM set is pretty good though so worth mentioning here.

:Slowking: Slowking also pivots into almost every set, and then pivots out. It takes like 50% from Draco, but then Latias has to switch out so you can just slack off or teleport out to something to check it offensively. Which, there are PLENTY of things that offensively check it:

OFFENSIVE CHECKS: Zeraora, Scarf Krook, Alakazam, Zygarde-10%, Scarf Zarude, Bisharp, even AZELF (Knock does like 80%), and then you have Lycanroc that speed ties it. There's also less used things like Scarf Chandelure. And those are just things that are faster - you can also use Azumarill, Mimikyu, Moltres-G, Primarina, AV Tangrowth, which are all slower but won't be KO'd by Latias and can do big damage or KO it back. That is A LOT of things that offensively pressure it.

Sure it can use Grassy Seed to offset SOME of these checks (Azelf and Scarf Krook most notably), but that set is not that great tbh and there was an entire Research Week done on it which showed that it really was only good situationally. Again, if you're using a suboptimal set like Grassy Seed set to offset some of these offensive checks, then you are really leaving yourself open to many other standard checks and Chansey or anything that uses Toxic just ruins it entirely. Something like Reuiniclus is a better Grassy Seed abuser for this reason. The argument about how some sets overcome some checks doesn't really fly imo when those sets are not optimal. You don't even need to consider these sets when building usually because you will almost certainly have something to check as long as you build a decent team (e.g. you will likely have something with toxic for this grassy seed set).

And, on top everything else, all of this only applies to balance teams. If you are building an HO team you don't even really need to take Latias into account because most things you have are just going to destroy it once set up (Gmolt, Zera, Mimikyu, even the Demon Mew stops all sets). For Stall, it seems most Stall teams have built-in checks already for Latias or any special attacker really since Chansey is on all stall teams basically. Again, the argument that the Flame Orb set overcomes thee Stall doesn't mean much to me because that's not a great set and then you will have much more trouble against more standard non-stall teams. And even still, that set is not a guarantee win against Stall, it just helps to not lose to Chansey.

Basically, if you run a balance team, you probably need to use one of the three defensive Latias checks (Chansey, Hatterne, or Slowking), but that's fine. Three is a decent amount of mons for one tier to defensively check one mon. More importantly, you have PLENTY of options to offensively check it (like 12+ things).

So, if I were basing it just on my experience in my 45 games laddering for reqs, it's a no brainer no ban vote. But even if I based it more generally on how I thought Latias was in the metagamae based on what I've seen and what I've experienced in the past month+, I would still vote an easy NO BAN.
 
No ban

Latias has more sets than I have outfits.

I think offensive teams don't allow it to come in for free as some might think. On paper yeah, LO Latias is an absolute demon but if you're using full on stall you can handle it and if you're using HO offense you really rack up so much steam its hard for it to just come in. Latias is realllllly good BUT I havent struggled vs it once (mainly faced LO) when using HO so cant really speak about if you used BO or Balance.

Choice scarf is my favourite set and I can see from the tons of set up sweepers and the prevelance of screens offense, it is very nice to have a fast trick mon who can also hit pretty hard and SE on alot of set up mons. Having a bulky check to fighting and water types is also nice, I feel from my very limited experience that without Latias alot of set up mons would become way more dangerous and I'd rather avoid always behing in scenarios were one slight crit or flinch decides the game whereas with Latias youd have a secondary backup mon. Other fast mons suck using a Choice scarf.

Please keep Latias, PLEASE!
 

Moutemoute

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'sup there, I managed to got my reqs, that wasn't fun at all because the ladder is filled of HO (mine.. sorry about that, other variants with Nihilego and Scizor or Sticky Webs HO like viv one) so this wasn't a great run overall. I'm not gonna lie that I'm on the fence on Latias. I will not reirate what pro-ban people said but Latias is for sure one of the best, if not the best Pokemon in the tier and it's always tough to switch into this Pokemon mostly because it's able to bypass almost all of its checks. I've been messing on the ladder for reqs with Stall and even this type of teams need to be careful vs Latias which is able to pressure even its most solid checks such as SpD Wish Rachi or Chansey. But on the other hand I trully think we have answers to Latias.. either offensive such as Zeraora, Choice Scarf Krookodile, Zarude, Jirachi, Bisharp, Moltres-Galar or defensive ones like Slowking, Hatterene, Chansey, SpD Jirachi which are quite easy to fit on most teams (either Balanced, HO or Stall) since they're not only acting as Latias checks. Zeraora brings a ton of speed to a squad and is overall a great revenge killer like Krookodile. Bisharp and Moltres-Galar are insanely common in HO and the ones without any of them are quite rare because they naturally fit in them. The same applies to things such as Slowking, Chansey or SpD Jirachi which can be found in most bulky/defensive builds. I firmly believe most team are naturally able to deal with most variants of Latias and while it's true that some sets are quite insane (like Grassy Seed or Flame Orb) and can catch out of guard people if you didn't take them into account, they're still quite rare which "prevents" in my opinion Latias to be considered over the edge. It's a S-rank Pokemon for sure, and a incredible one but for me it's some too much for UU, at least for now. With that in mind, I will most likely vote Keep UU on this vote.
 
I talked about this in the UU discord but I’m genuinely curious and confused for the reasons people have stated for voting DNB on Latias?

There’s been offensive checks listed, all of which get nuked by Draco Meteor (see the post above, for example, where every offensive switch-in bar Jirachi is taking 50% from me brainlessly clicking LO Draco), or four defensive switch-ins: Chansey, Hatterene, SpDef Jirachi, and Slowking. Chansey really only fits on stall (and don’t say otherwise unless you have a build to show bc I’ve only seen one decent Chansey BO yet while playing). Hatterene really only wins the 1v1 vs CM Lati if it’s Nuzzle since CM loses as it switches in lol. As much as I’ve tried using bulky Jirachi I don’t get how people enjoy using it? It gets Mystical Fired then is force to Wish or lets Guss/Tang/Scizor/Victini/endless list of mons come in for free bc it’s so passive and you’re forced to give up a lot of Speed so gl if you run into a Kyurem lol. And lastly we have a decent check in Slowking that prays it stays near 100% for +1 Draco unless you’re very SpDef. And out of all of these, I regularly only see Slowking and Chansey bc ladder is full of stall rn. How do people consider this decent counterplay?

Then on top of this, have people actually tried teambuilding, and if so do you mind sharing some builds you’ve been enjoying lately that do well vs Latias? Ever since a couple weeks before the suspect, every other game I’m running into screens / stall / some type of ho, and somehow I’m supposed to find this enjoyable? Whenever I build I’m just having to accept losing to 5 different mons on preview regardless of how pleased I am with my team.

I really don’t mean this in an offensive way to anyone, but I’ve been asking everyone I’ve chatted with before that’s leaning DNB rn to see what types of teams they’re using that don’t struggle with Latias bc hey, maybe I’m just wrong or have hit builder’s block. 4/4 of the responses I’ve gotten today alone have been: Screens, Stall, HO, HO, and I can’t really say I liked any of the 4 that I saw at all, for reasons like 6-0’d by Zera, 6-0’d by SD Sciz, etc. Do you guys genuinely enjoy using these teams nonstop bc of the way the meta is right now? And if you don’t want to ban Latias, is there something else you’d wanna do, or are you just satisfied with the way the meta is?
 

brewfasa

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haven’t finished reqs yet but hope to have it done by today, definitely echoing IPs sentiment thus far though. latias is too powerful to just simply be a good glue mon for the tier. it mixes its glue ability (checking a bunch of shit) with easy recovery, amazing speed tier, and powerful stabs. it simply has everything going for it. there’s not a team you could run other than pure HO right that doesn’t become better with latias on it. it has some solid switchins in jirachi, celesteela, and hatmon, but these are all just “ok” at checking lati. rachi and celeste don’t like taking mystical fire and hatmon is pretty niche altho usable. I really don’t get why people keep bringing up slowking as a counter, it literally does nothing back and only kicks the can down the road. for example on a mag team lati could easily run cm non mystical fire and there you go your best switch in is fucked lol. this isn’t even factoring in trick sets, healing wish, and other cm shenanigans I’m sure people can come up with. as alluded to earlier, without pursuit lati has the bulk, recovery, and power to easily be a threat all match and we simply don’t have the counterplay for that. I love latias and think it brings a ton to each team, but that might also be exactly why we need to get rid of it. you get the best mon in the tier with no consequences. one more thing too, if people are actually basing their opinions on the ladder run im a bit worried. pretty sure I’ve played an HO 70% of the time as well as using my own.
 
haven’t finished reqs yet but hope to have it done by today, definitely echoing IPs sentiment thus far though. latias is too powerful to just simply be a good glue mon for the tier. it mixes its glue ability (checking a bunch of shit) with easy recovery, amazing speed tier, and powerful stabs. it simply has everything going for it. there’s not a team you could run other than pure HO right that doesn’t become better with latias on it. it has some solid switchins in jirachi, celesteela, and hatmon, but these are all just “ok” at checking lati. rachi and celeste don’t like taking mystical fire and hatmon is pretty niche altho usable. I really don’t get why people keep bringing up slowking as a counter, it literally does nothing back and only kicks the can down the road. for example on a mag team lati could easily run cm non mystical fire and there you go your best switch in is fucked lol. this isn’t even factoring in trick sets, healing wish, and other cm shenanigans I’m sure people can come up with. as alluded to earlier, without pursuit lati has the bulk, recovery, and power to easily be a threat all match and we simply don’t have the counterplay for that. I love latias and think it brings a ton to each team, but that might also be exactly why we need to get rid of it. you get the best mon in the tier with no consequences. one more thing too, if people are actually basing their opinions on the ladder run im a bit worried. pretty sure I’ve played an HO 70% of the time as well as using my own.
The people that dont want to ban latias do not have strong argument. G-moltres, Zarude, bisharp and krok are poor checks, (especially bisharp). Jirachi needs to be spe def to switch, and that set is very vulnerable to phys attacker like krok. Haterrene has to watch for the special atack drop on the switch, chansey doesn't like taking psychock or trick. slowking doesnt fight back. running offensive team is dangerous if dont have a good switching or at least revnge killer that gets dented by its teamates. Dramag is nasty because it remove mainly celesteela, a pokemon that can annoy latias teamates, making it a more reliable check to lati. Talknig about that team style, mag comes with the benefit that it destroys slowking and the pixies, and allowing mence (A pokemon that might become broken if lati gets banned) to sweep. Latias doesnt always needs support but it cant beat everything it wants at the same time which no ban players use as an argument. Common even Zacian has no way of beating torkoal on its own.
 

Moutemoute

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Latias doesnt always needs support but it cant beat everything it wants at the same time which no ban players use as an argument.
Don't know if you're serious on this one or if it's linked to the joke on Zacian and Torkoal but this statement is 100% false. There isn't a set of Latias which can bypass all its checks. From CM + Recover to Choice Scarf, including LO 3 attacks or Grassy Seed / Flame Orb, there isn't a set of Latias which can claim to be able to bypass the whole metagame. I agree with the fact that with the right moves and set, Latias is able to "pick" its checks but it clearly cannot beat all of them at once..
 
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