★ np: SS UU Stage 8.4 - Spellbound (Aegislash Unbanned, Victini Banned)

[Amane Misa]

I just got reqs and I am not gonna post the picture in the np thread because it's cringe. I will, however, post some thoughts I had.

The timing of the test
The timing of the suspect test is disappointing. After using Aegislash throughout my entire run I know I am going to vote Keep UUBL, which is a shame because I could genuinely see a metagame in which Aegislash isn't broken with Terrakion, Victini and Latias.

I am not arguing that banning them all was necessarily a mistake, but instead I am presenting an alternative solution that probably could have worked well. That alternative solution also would've made it so the prophecy of BigFatMantis, in which UU will be Amoonguss vs Celesteela, won't come true, but at this point I'm genuinely afraid it will :(

EDIT: just to make it clear because it can be understood wrong, I'm not talking about a meta in which broken checks broken. Because all 4 have been generally only borderline broken with all having some counterplay to an extent but not reliable enough for them to stay and because some of them check each other (for example, Terrakion checking Victini and Latias checking Terrakion and Victini) I'm arguing that there could be a potential metagame with all 4 and have them as the top tier Pokemon but also have them not being broken. This is just a speculation, however, and you may view its impact differently than I do and it's completely fine!

As usual, webs is strong right now as a playstyle, especially with Aegislash now being available in the ladder. Under webs it can outspeed Keldeo and friends which is cool.

You can use the team I made until vivalospride posts his webs team, idrc. It's pretty fun and effective.

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Shuckle @ Red Card
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Encore
- Infestation

Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Knock Off

Aegislash @ Air Balloon
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak

Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Swords Dance
- Quick Attack

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Focus Blast

Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Counter

 

[KarliTheFrenshie]

Ok bois, so i just got REQS. I used Aegislash in an Screen HO. Aegi allowed me to weaken and kill a lot of mons on ennemy side. I really wasnt excpecting a suspect on it. I was more excpecting an Hydreigon or something ( and i hope it will come next) . Whatever, i will for sure vote ban and keep it UUBL. This mon is too versatile and can be run with too much set. Teambuilding is already annoying in GEN8UU so Aegi will just make it more hard and i will have a brain choke before i can finish a build that can handle it and be not so defensive at the same time.

If Terrak would have stay obviously it would have been questionnable but terrak is gone. So i tested it in the physical way because its imo the best to play in UU right now.

I got REQS with this team feel free to use it to climb ladder now and got the right to make your own opinion about it :

https://pokepast.es/003d2231e63b31ec

I Gave Infos in the past on the team but even if u almost never play showdown u will know how to use it. My brain is composed of 2 neurons fighting together and i can use it so...

Here are some facts :

-SD life orb iron head can one shot amoongus full defense after rock damage ( 82.3 - 97.2% )
-Salamence is an OK Physical check cause he got access to Intimidate + flamethrower/Fire Blast but he can still loose the 1V1 vs Aegi
-If u switch in Rotom H/W and thinkin "hell y i come on that iron head ". And unfortunatly he clicked Shadow claw band u will take a sweet ( 61.7 - 73.2% )
-If u think u are facing a physical Aegi and he he Spec. If u also think u can bring salamence on it (no) , u will take ( 81.8 - 96.9% ) on a shadow ball or flash cannon.
-Krookodile is not a check to the spec even if he click Shadow ball u take ( 46.2 - 54.3% ). Which mean even if u tank that u cant come twice on it.
-Skarmory can come in easily and take every physical hit but what can he do in return? He can only click whirlwind.

OFC there might be more Facts u can add too ! So feel free to give your opinion about Aegi or somethin. Have a good day and take care

 

[Lily]

I'm honestly very surprised at the fact that so many posters in this thread have found Aegislash even remotely overwhelming, that really has not been the case in my experience at all. I used the Mixed Spell Tag set (Shadow Ball/Flash Cannon/CC/Sneak), SD (SD/CC/Shadow Claw/Shadow Sneak) and SubTox (Sub/Toxic/King's Shield/Shadow Ball) and they all kinda sucked tbh. It faced a lot of issues, primarily (and I apologise for how scattered this is, I'm sleepy and ill:

- It's honestly super easy to pivot around and scout
Something like Amoonguss or AV tang is on basically every good balance or bo team atm and they both scout Aegi with ease. A special shoutout to Zarude which can also invalidate SubTox thanks to Jungle Healing. Once you figure out Aegis set it's super easy to play around - for instance, SD sets struggle hard with breaking through Amoonguss without a life orb (rly bad don't run it, its longevity sucks ass), while Specs sets get screwed over by Gmolt, Milotic, Zarude, even Krookodile, Kommo-o etc all can pivot in and threaten it easily. Mixed spell tag is somewhat better off here and owns fat teams but it's quite terrible against offense and lacks immediate power.

- It's got a lot of competition
It genuinely does feel worse than Chandelure to me as a breaker. It's so slow, weaker, lacks a really high powered stab move, and it's secondary stab isn't very useful relative to Chandys. SD sets on HO compete with the currently very potent Polteageist and I ended up dropping my Aegislash for one of those because it was just way more lethal.

- it's slow as shit
Very major issue. It's outsped by scizor and can't check it, it's outsped or tied by virtually every other breaker in the tier minus Crawdaunt or Azu, and they often carry moves to sting it really hard too. Krookodile owns it, Salamence owns it, Kommo-o owns it, all of these guys were faster even with their defensive sets and carry SE coverage so the meta is very naturally prepared for its poor speed tier.

I think the best set is SubTox but it's nothing this meta can't prepare for. We've got great tools to at least limit it like good Spikers, omnipresent Knock Off to remove Boots from other things, a bunch of Dark types - three of which (Zarude, Gmolt, Bisharp) counter it! and perfectly fine scouting pivots like Amoonguss, Primarina Tangrowth and more that I feel makes it perfectly palatable. I don't like the kneejerk reaction in this thread exhibited by many and I encourage those who want to give their opinion to actually hit the ladder and realise that the spooky sword isn't actually that bad.

 

[KSt3ve]

- It's honestly super easy to pivot around and scout
Something like Amoonguss or AV tang is on basically every good balance or bo team atm and they both scout Aegi with ease.

i don't get it...

It's the same problem again, Aegislash forces us to play a passive plant type in our teams so that we don't lose a pokemon every time it enters the field. It's like with Latias, but with slowking as the "in".
You said yourself that you're tired of always having to play a plant type to check zeraora ... Well, it's likely to be the same with Aegislash, except that he can 2hko Tangrowth and Ohko Amoonguss.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Amoonguss: 457-538 (105.7 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In an offensive team, you will not have any more this problem of losing against zeraora, you will just have to lose one or several pokemon on Aegislash because its bulk allows him to hold the blows well and the number of pokemon which does not touch it is more numerous than you think (the most popular set of scizor does not touch Aegislash: sd roost uturn bullet) and on top of that, if you face aegi's set sub, it's complicated for the offensive teams.

Zarude gets deleted by close combat + sneak, Krookodile by CC and choice specs, bisharp by cc. Only moltres-galar doesn't get destroyed by an Aegislash set thanks to its bulk and rest, but haven't seen many moltres on the ladder and even less this set, most being double dance.
The problem is that Aegislash has so many sets that can all destroy a team, no team can be 100% armed against the sub toxic set, the sd set, the choice specs set, the choice band set, the mixed set...

I totally agree on the fact that Aegislash is slow and therefore easy to revenge kill.
But why keep in the tier a pokemon that can ohko / 2hko every pokemon in the tier ??
Look at the calc, you will always find a way to ohko/2hko all the pokemons in the tier with an Aegislash set

 

[Adaam]

i don't get it...

View attachment 322448

It's the same problem again, Aegislash forces us to play a passive plant type in our teams so that we don't lose a pokemon every time it enters the field. It's like with Latias, but with slowking as the "in".
You said yourself that you're tired of always having to play a plant type to check zeraora ... Well, it's likely to be the same with Aegislash, except that he can 2hko Tangrowth and Ohko Amoonguss.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Amoonguss: 457-538 (105.7 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In an offensive team, you will not have any more this problem of losing against zeraora, you will just have to lose one or several pokemon on Aegislash because its bulk allows him to hold the blows well and the number of pokemon which does not touch it is more numerous than you think (the most popular set of scizor does not touch Aegislash: sd roost uturn bullet) and on top of that, if you face aegi's set sub, it's complicated for the offensive teams.

Zarude gets deleted by close combat + sneak, Krookodile by CC and choice specs, bisharp by cc. Only moltres-galar doesn't get destroyed by an Aegislash set thanks to its bulk and rest, but haven't seen many moltres on the ladder and even less this set, most being double dance.
The problem is that Aegislash has so many sets that can all destroy a team, no team can be 100% armed against the sub toxic set, the sd set, the choice specs set, the choice band set, the mixed set...

I totally agree on the fact that Aegislash is slow and therefore easy to revenge kill.
But why keep in the tier a pokemon that can ohko / 2hko every pokemon in the tier ??
Look at the calc, you will always find a way to ohko/2hko all the pokemons in the tier with an Aegislash set

She gives a list of Pokémon and you cherry pick the Amoong/Tang to make some sort of “gotcha” about Grass-types? Come on now

Strong disagree that “most offensive Pokémon cannot touch it.” Forgive me if I don’t lose sleep over “the most common Scizor set” having to run the unviable move Knock Off. From top to bottom on the VR: Zera has knock, Scizor has knock, Kommo has bulletproof + EQ/Flame, Amoonguss foul play, Krook is self-explanatory, Azu Knock, Prim has a strong Water Stab, Keldeo strong water stab, Celesteela flamethrower; Rotom Overheat, Mamoswine + Nido are obvious, Bisharp is obvious, Bulu has Lariat, Goltres is obvious so really where are these offense mons that are hard walled by Aegislash?

I understand it can 2HKO the whole meta with perfect prediction and the right set, but I’m unimpressed. How are you generating these turns to attack with its poor speed? Ghost/Steel is not as crazy as it once was. And you said it yourself, most of these are 2hkos at best and prediction is often against the Aegi user. A simple core of Kommo + Rotom and suddenly you have no clue what to click. Shadow ball the Rotom?Great! You did 60 and are forced out. Shadow ball the clanger! Awesome! You did no damage whatsoever and are forced out .

Oh and there’s literally 1 Pokémon in the tier not 2HKOd by Keldeo so let’s ban it too. Bonus points cause it has real speed.

 

[vivalospride]

I'll write a more in-depth post when I finish getting reqs but ngl I'm using a team that feels blatantly weak to aegi and I still haven't found it overwhelming enough to actually fix the team so that it's not weak to it LMAO, I don't entirely understand where the "aegi is broken" narrative is coming from.

 

[Twilight]

After a fair amount of testing, I don't think Aegislash is that 'broken' and I think it could be perfectly fine in the UU tier. Its versatility is definitely an issue because you will never be able to check each set defensively, so a lot of counterplay stems from scouting or just not letting it in for free. In fairness, this isn't difficult to do when it has such a low-Speed tier, and certain checks span across all of its sets like Amoonguss, Celesteela, and Galarian Moltres. SubToxic is the one that primarily requires more unique counterplay and is definitely the most obnoxious set to run into.

After more thought, I do think I would have preferred this suspect to have happened at any other point down the line because I find this tier to be pretty bad right now. There are things that need to change that are already in the current metagame so adding Aegislash to the mix does definitely make me feel a little skeptical about freeing it but fck it.

SubToxic

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Toxic
- Substitute
- King's Shield

Checks

Counters

I'll focus on SubToxic primarily because I think it is the set that is most obnoxious to play around against, and as a result more people complain about it. Counterplay to it isn't too hard to slap onto a team. Defensive Scizor, Amoonguss, Celesteela are pretty common/good defensive Pokemon in the metagame and so they fit on teams rather easily. Offense has Bisharp and Galarian Moltres, which are more or less staples in their respective elements, so them handling Aegislash is a bonus. I've been using Nihilego a lot more lately because it does a great job luring shit with Knock Off, Aegislash is one of them. Obstagoon actually feels pretty good to use with Terrakion banned, as it was one of the few mons that resisted both STABs. HDB Jungle Healing Zarude is a bit easier to put on teams with Scarf sets not being as significant, though ofc it is still nice for Zeraora. Defensive Stakataka is for sure niche but I listed it anyway. I may have missed some Pokemon but I focused primarily on the Pokemon that don't care about Toxic + take Shadow Ball. This doesn't even cover the offensive Pokemon that can pressure it before it gets the chance to start spiraling out of control.

As for its other sets, I think the mixed one can be pretty scary, though we aren't necessarily short on pivots to scout it. Just like every other set it has to deal with being slower than a majority of the metagame. Swords Dance isn't bad, but it's honestly piss weak when it has to rely on Shadow Sneak to beat faster foes. This usually restricts it to stomaching a hit in the Shield form to net one KO or it has to be kept in the back to sweep late game. I think it works pretty similarly to Mimikyu, except Aegislash is 10x better! The reliance on Shadow Sneak can always be offset through screens and webs just like any offensive Pokemon ofc. I think Choice Specs is pretty good despite the number of people I've seen dislike it. The immediate power definitely makes it harder to scout for but once you know it is Choice Specs you can usually play around it decently well and being Choice-locked opens up opportunities to be taken advantage of.

If we solely look at Aegislash in a vacuum I believe it's not broken and so if I get reqs I would probably vote to free it. I am rather swamped with work so ideally, I get them sometime next week. I am still wary of how the state of the tier is going to end up because building feels lame as fck right now to me. The top 5 mons in usage for Week 1 UUPL can basically be a team, just add X breaker and you're good to go '-'

Overall, I think most reactions about Aegislash are knee-jerk ones, especially when most complaining here didn't even wait for it to be legal on ladder before sharing their opinion. Give things a chance for a few days, if your opinion doesn't change after that then you should post about why this is a waste of time or whatever other reasoning one may have. At the end of the day it's your own opinion whether you believe something is broken or not but making assumptions or basing it off past experienced is never a good way to solely come to that conclusion.

 

[Monky25]

Hey everyone, Monky here. Its been a few days since Aegi dropped and now I feel I am ready to post my thoughts on it. To put it bluntly, I believe Aegislash should be UNBANNED AND REMAIN LEGAL IN SS UU. Aegi is a very good Pokemon, but my experiences with it have always been mid and it doesn't feel overbearing at all. This post will debunk the common pro-ban aegi thoughts as well as provide checks and counters to Aegislash as well.

First, we must address the versatility argument. Aegislash has a lot of versatile sets yes, but that doesn't mean it is broken. Also, it's multitude of sets are overestimated. It has 4 viable sets: SubToxic, Mixed, Specs, and SD LO (band is unviable). Out of these sets, 2 of them are outclassed by other Pokemon, with Specs being a worse chandelure due to its weaker STAB combo and lower speed while SD LO having longevity issues (and power if you drop LO) and just ends up being a worse Scizor on Hyper offense teams. This leaves aegi with essentially 2 sets that give it a main niche: SubToxic and Mixed, and both are very good but neither are broken. Now, people say its hard to predict what set Aegislash is running, but we have nearly a dozen defensive options that can take a hit from at least 3 of the 4 good sets and with one trip to the damage calculator, you find out what it is and can deal with it easier.

- bulky Goltres is a great defensive counter to aegi, countering sub toxic and being able to take a hit from any of its sets due to its high natural bulk. A good Pokemon to use after the Terrak ban, this Pokemon is able to effectively neuter aegislash as the possible best answer to it in the tier, while also handling things like Chandelure and Alakazam.

- Assault Vest Tangrowth is another good Pokemon to deal with Aegi. Getting better after the previous two bans, AV Tang can stomach a solid hit from the specs set as well as take hits from a physicals set due to its high physicals bulk and can retaliate with a knock and overall can pretty easily scout what set Aegi is running and deal with it from there.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

- not gonna go too much in depth, but these are all other defensive Pokemon that are able to live a hit, find out what Aegislash's set is, and deal with it from there. Clanger can take physical hits as well as shadow ball and hit it super effectively, amoonguss eats any hit and can just heal back up with regenerator, steela's high natural bulk sets it take any hit, chansey abuses choice locked variants (watch out for CC) Skarm can wall physical sets, rhyperior eats a hit and KOs back, heattom eats a hit an KOs back, incin can outspeed and pivot with parting shot or damage it, quag eats any physical hit and some special, and miltoic is a new rising star that can check aegi alongside checking other threats like chandelure and alakazam. This is like a DOZEN defensive answers to Aegislash, so there is more than enough counterplay as these Pokemon deal with at least 3 of its sets.

Now, down below are offensive counterplay to Aegislash. While they cannot take a hit, they all outspeed and hit it for heavy or super effective damage, sometimes both!

That's a lot of Pokemon, all of them being able to pressure the offensive sets due to Aegislah's low speed. Zydog has thousand arrows, goon has knock AND counters the subtoxic set, volcanion has fire moves, both thundurus forms pressure it with powerful electric attacks, chandelure threatens it (watch out for +2 shadow sneak) Bisharp, mamo, nidoqueen, and krook all hit it super effectively, keldeo hits it hard, zera knocks, scizor knocks, and salamence uses fire coverage. Aegislash's main issue is its speed leaving it to be revenge killed by so many threats as seen above. These are all Pokemon in the S through B ranks of the Viability Rankings btw, so its not like any of them are unviable trash that can't beat it.

Overall, Aegislash is simply not banworthy. We have tons of defensive counter play to scout its sets and even more offensive Pokemon who can outspeed it and hit it for super effective damage as well. Aegislash is NOT broken, literally all of the people saying ban automatically assumed it was broken before even using it on the ladder, this is not the way we should be thinking. Don't let previous bias cloud your views, Aegislash is perfectly fine in the tier and even if it doesn't add much it is not broken, therefore we should free it.

One final thing, you should TOTALLY check out victim of the week, this week featuring subtoxic aegislash. Twilight literally made a post above this showing off tons of checks and counters to it, so you dont even need to think! Just plug one in and you get to compete!
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...subtoxic-aegislash-submissions.3677671/page-5

 

[kino]

Alright I messed up a fair bit w/ Aegislash now, and I'd like to share some thoughts on it, and on a few other mons as well.

I've tried what I consider to be the more interesting sets for aegi, and each one have been more or less underwhelming compared to what I expected.

• (click the sprites, more optimal spreads prolly exist I just got lazy). Those two did quite well, but not quite as well as I expected. Shadow Ball spell tag/specs hits hard, but not hard enough to prevent regen pivots like AV Tang or Amoonguss to come in and check your set and the move you're locked in if that's the case. Spell Tag was probably the funniest cause it caught checks to the specs locked into sball off guard, but specs was a fun nuke as well. It did well, but getting free hits wasn't that easy and it wasn't properly unstoppable either. Those were prolly the most effective out of the bunch, but not exactly broken either.

• Honestly this is mostly matchup fishy. Sub Tox Tect Shenanigans is obviously a pain to deal with, especially on a mon so scary on paper. Losing only one turn to figure out its set means you can get vortexed in the sub tox hell, and that can for sure be annoying. This being said, counterplays have been mentioned higher, and this is by no means the scariest set offensively. The only way it really got out of control when I played or faced it was when it got the SpD drops it needed. That can be a pain for sure, but it's not like mons we already know about, like sub tox Jirachi aren't doing (kinda) the same thing already, fishing for rng + abusing status. It's definitely annoying but I didnt find myself struggling to find checks when building, and it rarely clutched a game on its own.

• any HO sets, mostly SD/Autotomize mixed. Those have prolly been the most inconsistent, and were again kinda matchup fishy. While they got a few wins on their own, it was mostly out of luck for having the good item/4th move in one matchup. Without Life Orb Iron Head on SD you have no way to OHKO Guss but that makes you easily chippable, without items like Balloon you find less opportunities to setup, but without spell tag your priority is significantly weaker. Any win I got with SD was pretty much against unprepared or lucky matchups. Mixed Autotomized came in clutch a few times and worked as a decent cleaner, but rly hates facing regen cores w/o great help from hazards. I found both being great offensive partners for Zera in Offense tho, the two of them were often able to power through the grasses (and that one fat clanger) with the right coverage.

In short, I don't think this is broken. It's a potent, unpredictable threat that has multiple ways of surprising its checks but every set is limited and not without checks or counters. On the other hand, I really fail to see how his presence will make the tier better whatsoever. The only defensive utility it had was revenge killing Zam in a few games (and that only works against non boosted, or with sneak on non sash) and denying a few very bad clanger sets. It has proper offensive utility and can pressure regen cores with the right sets, that's a good thing but we already have a few mons capable of this. I'm also not sure what impact it would've on the tier in the long run, and I'm a bit scared of that. Like Twi, I feel like the tier has a few other issues, and I don't see this solving any major one, but I wouldn't mind if it got freed.

Short thoughts on two other things
Mantis pointed it out, this is annoying. It has to win quite a few 50/50s against some of our top meta mons, and is kinda forced to click shadow ball (if non np) when facing a Slowking, but that means it forces unhealthy 50/50s for the player facing zam, where a wrong play can lead to lose a Scizor/Slowking/Jirachi, opening big holes in the team for cheap. I'm not entierly sure this is broken but the more I see it, the more I feel it can grow unhealthy.
This is just bonkers. Having a mon that can get free pivoting on most of the tier without taking chip is scary on it's own, but it can even defeat most of its checks in the long run. Amoonguss&Tang often end up being knocked super early, meaning you can't punish physical moves like blaze kick, which is able to power through you in the long run. Rhyp isnt all that reliable either since it'll just get chipped to death if it loses its leftovers. The only thing that sounds like a fully reliable counter (to non grass knot variants but kek.) is heavy duty boots Sticky Hold Gastrodon, a fat unmon outside of that. And that's only talking about pivot sets for BO/Balanced, when it has options for more offensive sets in HO (BU + Acro/Lum or Life Orb/Blaze kick), which are insanely tough to handle.

 

[Adaam]

I finally got reqs after 45 games (LOL). Aegislash was extremely underwhelming. Despite the cries of 2HKOing the entire tier, not only did I fail to destroy teams as promised, but I also easily handled all forms of Aegi with a bunch of "shaky" checks.

Nothing lets Aegislash in besides maybe Alakazam, and I had Kommo + Rotom + Krook to fall back on if need be. These are all "2HKOd" but like who cares? I outspeed and KO back so its forced out and doesn't come back in. As for my own Aegi, I was using mixed with King's Shield and often wish I had a Sciz instead. Aegislash is great at forcing trades early on stuff like Keldeo or Specs Kyurem, but that's about it. I struggled with hard switching it on Pokemon because as mentioned before, a loooot of stuff hit it hard. I even got smacked by a faster CB Scizor (yep, believe it or not they do run Knock Off). When I did find a free turn, what usually happened was:

• I did 60% to something like Rotom and switched out.
• I did no damage on the incoming Dark-type, or chipped it with CC and got forced out after scouting with King's Shield
• I got walled by Celesteela
• I killed something and got forced out by a faster breaker

Never did I get the allured 2HKO the whole team and win. In fact I was often forced out by slower mons I did 2HKO like Slowking cause they eat Shadow Ball and smash me back. I think SubTox might be the best set after all, but there are a lot of things that invalidate it to call it broken. Imagine being walled by Chansey as a Ghost-type immune to Toxic lol...

I also lost 6-0 to CM Prim like 3 times but what's new

 

[haunted paper]

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpD / 216 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball
- Spite
- Substitute

Spite is a cool tech for stall and bulky teams. Bulky Rotom-Heat's volt switch only deals 16-19.4% dmg to this EV spread. So it has to go for overheat to get rid of the sub, and the aegi user could go for King's Shield first then spite to get rid of 6 PP while, rotom-heat's spatk drops by 2. The second over heat does 30.2-35.8%, so you can live it comfortably and go for another sub. Spite + King's Shield can also be very useful against Choice Keldeo's Hydro Pump. And if Tang isn't running earthquake then you can mess with it pretty easily. Spite can also be useful against opposing stall mons going for recovery. So now Aegi can mess with special and physical attackers in 1 set. It's pretty beautiful.

 

[vivalospride]

Hello I have secured reqs with prolly my worst record in years and I recorded some of it because I enjoy rambling, mons, and the sound of my own voice. If you want more lmk and I will give more as well as like building/informative stuff if any of you care at all :)

 

[Fusion Flare]

I have been fucking around with Aegislash being in the tier, and I want to give my thoughts, since I’m definitely not getting reqs anytime soon LOL.


Aegislash, is to put it bluntly, pretty mediocre from my experience. It’s slow as shit so it can’t keep up with offensive squads and gets forced out, and it can be stopped rather easily by defensive cores as well. Despite its incredible coverage, its rather lacking in that 2HKO margin unless it’s the right set, which either they can just switch out to a check to force you out, of which there are plenty, or they’ve already scouted the set beforehand, with something like the regen grasses or even Kommo-o + Rotom-H/W. The only set I found good-ish was like mixeThe claims of it being an unstoppable beast were, needless to say, way off. I see no reason why it SHOUDLNT be unbanned.
EDIT: just got reqs we win these!!

 

[ramolost]

Hello I have secured reqs with prolly my worst record in years and I recorded some of it because I enjoy rambling, mons, and the sound of my own voice. If you want more lmk and I will give more as well as like building/informative stuff if any of you care at all :)

great vid this was a great lesson about strategy pokemon and it helped me a lot thank you i thank you. you are now my favorite poketuber with adaam. love you.

 

[Totomon]

So got reqs and I can say with confidence that Aegislash isnt broken.
People are definetively trying to oversell Aegisalsh's versatility and breaking potential, when we have so many one-time switchins that scout and prevent aegisalsh from taking KO's (Chople Krook, Kommo, Celesteela, Av tang, to name a few) which by its own take away the majority of the keep ban arguments.
While Aegislash doesnt really have a really HARD counter and it can deal damage to every mon, every mon can also mess up aegislash even the ones that it should be winning against. (Not literally every mon but like a big majority of them)

Other small arguments on why Aegi is a fine mon and voting unban is the way:
1.- It doesnt overcentralize the meta around itself, as said a lot of popular mons can mess up aegi and it isnt the kind of mon that you'll lose to if you dont have x or y mon.

2.- A lot of the sets are very MU fishy, even the good ones like sub tox are relegated to sitting on the back when you see celesteela or teleport chansey. while yes it can eventually break through steela and it can bait double switches with chansey those arent really the qualities of a broken mon. Like if you have 3 layers of spikes and get some little chip krook can break through amoonguss but that isnt because krook is broken, thats because you managed to outplay your opponent in the course of the game.

3.-Aegi adds a healthy amount of pressure to this "brainless double regen cores" that the UU tier has been plaged with for the past couple of months, Aegi with good play can break those cores however is not like the archetype is dead since they can dent dent Aegislash and the offensive parts of the teams deal with it easily, by not having a TRUE hard counter while also having a bunch of checks it helps to create a more active tier and changes this game of mindless switching that a lot of people do not enjoy.
If you have been trying to deal with aegi the same way you deal with zeraora then you are playing against it the wrong way, keeping the momentum against it, applying offensive pressure and knowing WHEN to take KO's is the way you deal with Aegislash, Aegislash is not only NOT BROKEN but it also significantly betters the state of the tier.

4.Cool mon


#FREETHESHIELD

 

[BigFatMantis]

Just want to post my thoughts in Aegislash since I've been experimenting with it a bit after I got reqs:

First, I did not use Aegislash while getting reqs. I used Pyukumuku screens HO team that I posted in the reqs thread that was built just to counter the ladder. Never really had any issues while I was using that team. But to make sure I got a good idea of how Aegislash was, I used it on my own team afterwards:



^This was the team I used with Aegislash. Looks like a dream team of UU's most wanted right? WRONG it's actually not a perfect team, but it's good enough for me to test how well Aegislash plays out.

I used a mixed set first w/ Shadow Sneak, Close Combat, Shadow Ball, and King's Shield. It certainly wasn't bad, but it wasn't really winning me any games. There were suddenly a million defensive Celesteelas on the ladder when I started using this. It's good to threaten things like Hatterene since MFire doesn't do much in shield form and you can usually predict a Psyshock/Draining Kiss, Sneak is good for Zam, and it's good against Chansey that can't do anything to it. But it's so slow and even something like Nidoqueen is too threatening to it, so I never really felt like I was in a super advantageous situation while using it.

I switched over to a sub/toxic set w/ Shadow Ball, but with the same team, to see if that was better. I had previously used a sub/tox set on a stall team that was alright, but I wanted to try it here on a non-stall team. It was pretty good actually here - a lot of times games would be very cancery seeing my opponent trying to play around it. But whenever there was a team with Celesteela I couldn't do much, and one time I ran into a team with Taunt Kommo-o which totally shuts this thing down. I think most of the success I had with it was due to the fact that many ladder players just don't prepare for it, as I had a hard time breaking through teams that obviously thought it through to have checks to it.

Finally, I tested the same team, but replaced Aegislash completely with SD/Roost Scizor. Scizor performed much much better than Aegislash did and was many times more valuable on my team.

So, while it's of no surprise to anyone that I'm voting unban on Aegislash, I wanted to share and also point out that, we should really try to re-test other mons once April shifts come along. Every single mon in UUBL should, at the very least get looked at individually to see if there's a chance it may be ok. Obviously this would need some time first after this re-test plus new shifts, but it's possible to fix and enhance the meta more decisively through unbans than bans.

 

[Freeroamer]

After using Aegislash a ton on a different account after getting requirements, I really don't think it's broken at all and will be voting unban unless someone comes up with a ridiculous set or something that starts slaying. Views on each set below, links to sets and spreads I used:

- SubTox: Aegi's strongest niche in theory imo, when I was using this I was finding that in 1/5 matchups it would go nuts, usually when I was against a slower paced team with no Ghost resist or something, but when I played against faster paced stuff it wasn't really allowed to start getting into the cycles it wants to and would usually just get a shadow ball or toxic off against something and be sacked/traded for damage.

- Mixed: The other niche Aegi really has imo, I enjoyed this set more because it's actually proactive and when you trade as Aegi is often forced to do, you trade for real damage or KOes instead of like 40% or a Toxic. A decently strong sneak is nice too for picking off stuff, but compared to Scizor's BP you'll find yourself needing significantly more chip vs most things not named Alakazam. I still don't think this set is all that though, there's a remarkably low number of defensive pokemon used in this tier that you come in and really threaten without significant chip, and almost all offensive pokemon have some manner of hitting it hard which means again, it's forced to trade a lot. The only matchups where I can remember this coming in a significant number of times in a game were against stall and TR.

- Specs: Very similar to mixed in that you'll often be forced to make trades, with this set you need less chip on defensive stuff to force them out or KO without trading, but you lose some power behind Sneak and the ability to follow up an attack with Sneak. This honestly feels a bit like a budget Chandelure to me, where both offensively check Scizor but Chandelure has the ability to actually OHKO Amoonguss without needing Steel Beam, sits in a much better speed tier and can trick away it's Specs in a matchup against Chansey. All Aegi offers in return is weak priority and that it resists rocks instead of being weak to them which is important with how ass removal is in this tier but otherwise the chandelier seems superior.

- Band/SD: Haven't tried either of these yet because I just cannot see why I would use them over Scizor or Bisharp. On my reqs run I played against a Weakness Policy Aegislash on a screens build that got to +4 and it still couldn't OHKO a bulkless Nidoqueen after rocks with Sneak, which was enough to dissuade me from even testing it. Interested to see if others have had different experiences but these just seem bad.

I genuinely promise that I didn't read laevin's post until I started writing this bit despite them looking almost the exact same LOL but the fact that our experiences with these sets is pretty much identical reaffirms my belief that Aegislash is fine in this tier and should be unbanned. Will Aegislash nab kills from time to time if it comes in against something it scares out and clicks the right move to hit your switchin? Of course it will, but that doesn't make it broken. It's relatively slow, has very few safe entry opportunities and is often forced to make trades to achieve damage or kills which makes it more than manageable both from the teambuilder and in practice. Given that ladder doesn't seem to know it's legal, I just hope people actually play with it to come to their own conclusions (even if that makes you want to vote ban) instead of seeing former Uber Aegislash and voting ban with no experience of it.

 

[Moutemoute]

Well I didn't miss a UU suspect since 3.5 years but I'll not be able to get reqs this time. I don’t have a lot of free time and ladder is pure aids. It's kinda insane because whenever there’s a suspect test and I'm laddering, I'm tolding myself that the ladder is even worst than the previous time and god damn I think we're reaching the climax of the bullshit. Ladder is basically half cheese, half random shits so yeah, I definitively don't have enough time, patience and motivation to get those reqs in a such filthy ladder. However, I still would like to give my thoughts on the current Pokemon suspected, aka Aegislash.

I'll be honest, I trully hated this suspect test when it was announced and I thought Aegislash would be absolutely disgusting in UU but the fact is that it's kinda meh (so yeah fuck me I was wrong and Lilburr was right.. I hate to admit it). The current metagame is quite offensive which doesn't let a lot of space to Aegislash to shine. If it's not able to pick a KO, it's fucked up for it. However, I'd like to highlight that Aegislash is super nasty vs more passive and defensive builds, especially Stalls which have to run specific checks/counters in order to play around it. I've been using a bit Stall on the ladder with spe def Pyukumuku & Umbreon and another one with Goltres and even with those solid checks, it was tough when Aegislash was played well (especially Mixed variants). I don't think this issue is that big considering Stall isn't that great at the moment because there is too much shits running around which are able to fuck up with Stalls. Overall even tho I hate to admit it, I don't think Aegislash is too good or unbearable for the tier but like other players said, I don't think it brings a lot of utility to the tier either bar being able to revenge kill Alakazam (which is absolutely nuts atm wtf).

That's all for me, thanks for reading, palico to your all !

 

[vivalospride]

Hello children, I've been uploading to YouTube recently if you guys wanna support me on there. I have come to this thread to advertise but more importantly drop a squadron for you all to ladder with if you haven't yet received Aegislash reqs, or even if you have and you just wanna ladder now or in the future.

https://pokepast.es/81aee9bbfd4e71df

Definitely gonna be voting unban on Aegi, it pressures the common regen core and doesn't feel impossible to answer offensively and defensively, moreso offensively. The defensive switch ins aren't extremely plentiful but honestly this whole tier is running either a dark type to rkill or dark coverage in general w knock spam and fp on amoonguss n shit like that.

 

[Lily]

Aegislash has been unbanned! Thanks to all who voted!

 

[Monky25]

 

[BigFatMantis]

An unban you say???? Well looks like this is headed in a different direction.....

 

[CheesyBrie]

So I know there's only one week left until April, but I feel like things have been a little quieter lately (maybe it's just that I'm checking the forum more often than usual haha). So I wanted to ask the following to stir up conversation just for fun:

1. What Pokemon have you enjoyed using most in the current UU meta?

2. What Pokemon has disappointed you the most (i.e. what has been underwhelming for you)?

3. What Pokemon are you most afraid to see on the opposing team?

4. Have you had any successes lately with Pokemon from RU or NU that you think could find a niche in UU?

5. What Pokemon do you miss being viable in UU? (RIP Noivern and Heliolisk)

Hope everyone is having fun playing and has a wonderful day!

 

[romanji]

1. Kommo-o. I love the different sets you can run on it. Defensive is my personal favorite, as it is a great Scizor check with Body Press and Flamethrower.

2. Probably Conkeldurr. It feels super underwhelming due to being very slow and it being easily revenge killed by Pokemon such as Azumarill.

3. Definitely Zeraora, mainly due to not knowing what the 4th move would be. Is it Play Rough, Close Combat, or Blaze Kick?

4. Obstagoon has definitely had a real defensive niche as a counter to SubToxic Aegislash. Even before, I have found it great as a fast Guts user with a great STAB combination.

5. Sirfetch'd was so fun because you could brainlessly click Close Combat.

 

[Totomon]

Fun questions to kill time :)

1. Mence is just so good, defog is very consistent, full special attacking sets dont have a lot of switchins and while I haven't used DD it can be genuinly terryifing in the right setting

2. Celesteela just doesnt do that much, it gets threatened left and right and the payoff it gives isnt that much as switching around it is easy, nothing more than a little annoyance. Metagame trends arent kind to it.

3. Alakazam doesnt let me sleep, it breaks everything and not in a fun way like chandelure or aegislash.

4. I would say chandelure but thats a UU mon that just so happens to be usable in RU and no one can tell me otherwise, so I would say that Rhyperior is just very cool, it a zera and mence check that can trade with scizor.

5. R.I.P. Sirfetch'd it was such a fun mon :(