np: SS UU Stage 9.1 - King of the Clouds (Thundurus Banned)

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Lily

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:ss/thundurus:

Hi again all, it's been a bit since our last one of these. As many of you have expressed recently, the tier is generally well-balanced and enjoyable, but there is one outlier in the otherwise solid state the metagame is in - that outlier is Thundurus.

Thundurus has been in the tier for a long time at this stage but for a while it took a back seat - it had to compete with the extremely omnipresent Zeraora for a teamslot, a fight it usually ended up losing. This mean that it wasn't really seen and dropped to RU as a result, but once Zeraora left for OU, Thundurus came roaring back with a vengeance and established itself as one of the premier offensive Pokemon in UU.

Thundurus has two main sets. The first is its pivot set, usually running Thunderbolt, Psychic, Knock Off and U-turn, but it has other options like Grass Knot and Focus Blast if it wants. This set has no counters outside of the niche Gastrodon; it will force progress against everything else, and is incredibly punishing against the tier's standard Electric resists in Amoonguss, Tangrowth and Zarude. This makes it a bit of a headache to prepare for because it also has a strong matchup against most of the tier's Ground-types - Krookodile just gives it a Defiant boost and takes a ton from U-turn, the Nidos can't take Psychic, Mamoswine can't take any of its attacks bar Thunderbolt, Rhyperior can check it for some time but all of these hate losing their item more than anything else and they're just U-turn fodder until they're in range.

Thundurus is also faster than most offensive Pokemon - it blazes past the likes of Keldeo, Mienshao, and Salamence, making it quite difficult to check offensively. The few Pokemon that naturally outspeed it in Starmie, Noivern, and Zygarde-10% are niche options due to them facing competition from things like Primarina, Salamence, and Krookodile, while priority from the likes of Lycanroc-D and Mamoswine is helpful but nothing Thundurus can't outlast thanks to its hazard immunity and their reliance on Life Orb to do damage. It's even capable of EVing itself to live their attacks as we've seen recently. This means that dealing with Thundurus both offensively and defensively is a very tall task.

This is all just the pivot set as well; Thundurus happens to have access to Nasty Plot, which it can run to turn matchups against typical checks like SpDef Amoonguss and Gastrodon on their heads while also being an insanely difficult breaker to deal with on offense teams, with utility as something that can resist revenge killing attempts from the likes of Choice Scarf Jirachi and Mienshao thanks to its great typing while also providing an immunity to Ground.

With all that said, Thundurus is no OHKO machine - it hardly knocks out anything in one shot at all. It's very possible for Pokemon like Kommo-o, Salamence, and Nihilego to trade blows with it in worst case scenarios, though Thundurus can simply U-turn out of the matchup to put them in range later. While they're very, very niche, we've seen some innovations on bulkier teams like Gastrodon and Flygon which can outlast Thundurus for most of a game. In addition, threats like Lycanroc-D and Mamoswine are in good positions in the meta at the moment, and their strong priority makes it possible to keep Thundurus at bay for a while. Thundurus is certainly an extremely powerful Pokemon, and community outcry for a suspect test has been growing, so here it is!

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430


Other than that, the test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UU9T (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UU9T Lily to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

Participants will have until Saturday, September 4th at 7:00 PM GMT -4 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. PLEASE DO NOT POST YOUR CONFIRMED SUSPECT RESULTS HERE - there is a dedicated thread for identifying your suspect results. Happy laddering!

 

Indigo Plateau

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C/Ping from the previous NP thread since my timing was bad & it’s locked now:

I’m all for a Thundy suspect but I’m going to play devil’s advocate and say that I really don’t think it’s broken, at least from my personal experience. I’ve enjoyed reading everyone’s posts so far but the only instance I’ve seen of someone actually mentioning Thundy’s flaws (and not extensively) has been Roamer re: bringing it in. I talked about this in council chat but want to bring up some issues I have from using it; and please realize this might just be my experience:

1) It’s a phenomenal progress maker when it comes in. I got the sentiment from most, if not all, posts here that Thundy is consistenly coming in and making progress. That hasn’t been my experience at all. Thundy’s not frail but its typing makes it so that it can’t really come in on anything safely - look at most BO builds, and ask yourself when you can afford to actually switch it into something. This leads to most instances of it coming in being via a double or to revenge kill something, since I don’t think that most other things that can use pivoting moves flow well alongside it.

2) Thundy isn’t really splashable for me. I talked to rob about this in council chat and know that he has an easier time building with it that I do. I ended up looking at the ~14 post shift teams I had, and only 3 had a Thundy, while 6 had other Electric-types. The issue for me is that unless I’m committing to full offense (usually through the Thundy-Keld-Guss route or a variation), it doesn’t provide any defensive utility at all. The Rotoms have arguably better pivoting capabilities, and I’ve found success here & there with some more niche stuff like Raikou too (since I can run Lefties).

I’ve struggled more than I thought to come up with consistent Thundy builds. I heavily disagree with KM’s sentiment of it not stacking weaknesses or not constraining in the builder. Things like Mamo, Lycan, Zydog, are rare, but potentially dealing with them when these builds are already strapped for slots can be a major detriment. I’ve also found it hard to find builds with it that can deal with stuff just like Aegi and Buzzwole (might not be the best example but its the first physical attacker that came to mind lol) too, since fitting a Goltres, Salamence, or other mons that I would use to answer these feels so awkward alongside Thundy. All around it’s just been something that’s been way more awkward than I thought it would be to build with.

3) Thundy is more threatening on paper than in practice. Especially for a mostly offense user like myself, I’ve had a lot of instances where I’ve seen a team & been like, “well fuck, I can’t switch into Thundy at all without getting knocked/pivoted on.” Yet when I play against it, it has very limited opportunities to come in & do stuff. I don’t want to downplay its ability to run different sets but I’ve seen zero NP sets outside of rain just bc of all the utility it gives up. TBolt is good stab & it’s decently strong but it’s not some unswitchable force either, often trading a lot of health vs stuff like Mence, Rotom, Guss, Kommo, etc. We don’t have a lot of Ground-types but I’m not sure why people are quick to write off stuff like Rhyp/Gastro/Mamo/Bunny or just assume that Krook is the only relevant one. GKnot has been mentioned too & tbf I haven’t used it at all (only used Superpower once as last move), but dropping U-turn has obvious drawbacks too. The two premier glues of the tier in Guss and Tang get knocked and pivoted on but if they were really that easy to abuse, then they wouldn’t be as popular as they are. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t want people slapping some niche mon to answer just Thundy, but that it’s totally feasible to use some things like Gastro, Zydog, etc on certain builds for more reasons than just Thundy or just limit when Thundy can come in, because most of my teams rely on that.

Phew that was a longer post than expected. Again, I’m playing devil’s advocate because it hasn’t been nearly as bad in practice for me as has been stated in the thread. I also really can’t remember seeing a Thundy team or replay that I’ve been overly impressed with despite how broken it’s being made out to be. By all means, I highly encourage people to post teams and/or replays to change my mind. I do support a suspect before SCL since most people seem to want one, but at the moment, I think the utility that Thundy offers for a top tier offensive mon is perfect alongside its drawbacks.
 

Estarossa

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Agree heavily with IPs post here. He nicely covers why Thundurus struggles to find as many opportunities into a more offensive BO build as you might think it would. I wanted to cover in my post why I also don't think its particularly problematic towards balance builds, to round this off nicely, as somone who is well known for having a fair amount of experience building these builds atm. Will also provide some general comments on BO too after and my general stance here.

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So immediately off the bat you start realising that like, Thundurus doesn't really like get free opportunities versus very much? Were we to take the current fat sample team for instance, I've been using a Heal Bell Chansey > Togekiss version too which has improved matchups on this front and versus Speces Prim / Modest King at the cost of a second win con, Thundurus is forced to risk taking Toxic's from anything like Chansey/Aegislash if it wants to pressure them with a Knock, which is a trade the fat player can consider because it makes Thundurus much easier to deal with afterwards, and these Pokemon are usually prepared to take Knocks on these builds from Nihilego anyway in the building department so this isn't something thundy exclusive at all, and cannot force out Nihilego until its around half health. This limits thundy to like forcing out starmie or togekiss on the non chansey version at max, as anythin else it struggles to pressure, other than like potentially again trading a knock on umbreon for toxic which is also poor for thundy.

You then come to how Thundy can honestly be not the most punishing thing when it does U-turn though? On fatter teams like this Phys def tang is defo a mainstay, phys def tang in general has been taking a large rise lately and there's no real huge value loss to being knocked here unlike with AV. Thundy doesn't really have any way of actually pressuring it, but at the same time practically everything that threatens these Tangs afterwards like Starmie, Nihilego, Mence, Kommo-o etc doesn't actually have any way of pivoting, so Thundurus vortex's aren't really a reality in these situations, unless you are facing some double electric core with rotom-h, which would obviously still have issues with some rising popularity options like Seismitoad. This is kind of the reality for me that if you really want Thundurus to vortex you have to start type stacking with stuff like Thundy + Rotom-H/Moltres, and it definitely leaves you struggling to stack with other useful glues like IP talks about.

In reality this ends up with situations that while Thundurus is certainly providing value as an offensive pivot and support to your opponents threatening mons, I never really feel like its the issue for balance teams compared to the teammates its supporting instead? This really lends credence to the idea that if you can handle Thundies teammates, the balance team shouldn't really have issues with the thundy itself. Thundurus will also if it wants to come back in again have to then keep playing the game of I don't really get a huge amount of easy entry points every single time, and there's plenty of other strong pivoting options that do much the same in terms of providing strong entry points to teammates but are actually in reality a lot more practical in terms of entry points like Zarude in particular.

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From a BO and more offensive build standpoint, I definitely think its one of the most threatening Pokemon. Honestly its pretty hard to fit stuff thats faster than it other than scarfers, none of which would directly switch in for fear of Knock Off, while probably my fav one atm in Jirachi can't even rly revenge it well anyway with Ice Punch, and thats assuming it doesn't need Thunder Punch to handle Gyara too on these builds. Some options like offensive Starmie are honestly solid in my mind right now, and fairly underrated, but its basically the only fast option that i genuinely consider on teams thats naturally aster than thundy.

Speaking of all of that though, I still feel the same sentiment that it doesn't really get as many entry points as you'd like though with these builds, its just not really swapping into anything with its not amazing defences, and Amoonguss/Tangrowth arent necessarilly the most abusable Pokemon, although without the backbone provided on a balance team its certainly a lot more feasible for thundies teammates to really put in the devastating work here. I definitely find that thundy feels at its most limiting when building with zarude atm, but honestly zarude's limitations atm come more down to how awkward of a rain matchup it produces, adding stuff like Seismitoad is just a fairly natural choice with zarude for me atm because of that anyway, and I just haven't really seen the Gknot thundy usage at all when using this stuff.

While I do think its a very strong anti-offensive option, I don't honestly feel that ive ever had a bad matchup against it feel unplayable at all in pracitce, and it does often feel a lot scarier on paper. I also agree in general that its properties as a really fast pivot are something that provides a lot of benefit to the tier right now, considering how poor scarfers are atm and how it sits above the threatening speed tiers containing stuff like Mienshao / Keldeo. Its downsides are definitely noticeable too with the lack of free entry points, not really properly vortexing with teammates amazingly since stuff like zarude/mienshao aren't pressuring stuff like tang/amoong fresh off of a direct u-turn without an attack first unless they are heavily chipped, and just generally not being super splashable, rotom-w especially definitely directly competes with it a fair amount as an electric, ground immune pivot on a lot of builds and is certainly a hugely appealing option right now, pairs better with stuff like mence/molt especially and has actual ability to use its ground immunity etc.

I'm leaning towards DNB cause of this, as I don't really see it breaching past annoyance to actuallly being broken right now in my mind.
 

Lily

can you feel the tension rising?
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SCL happened. Thundurus isn't something that just randomly popped up out of nowhere like rain, and UUWC has overstayed its welcome quite significantly due to endless tiebreakers and qualifiers. The official tournament was prioritised over waiting 3 weeks for an inevitable suspect test anyway considering there was not a single post that was against a suspect test and the council was in unanimous agreement.
 

pokemonisfun

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Not like Aegislash appeared out of nowhere

-_-
Guess I’m too late - oppose having the test, I’ll be open minded for this ban though as a good UU member...
laevin posted somewhere in the forums recent about optimal Thunduruss sets (when to run grass knot and volt) and would like to hear more from him if possible as this is something important I didn’t think of before imo...
 

Twilight

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I personally have not found Thundurus to be as broken or problematic as some people have stated. I agree with all the points in IPs post so I'm not going to bother reiterating them. Instead, I will focus on the fact that some people consider some of its defensive checks to be too niche or how it shows how broken the Pokemon is.

There are no absolute hard counters to Thundurus because one coverage option can change what can answer it but it only has so much room for all of these options before giving up another matchup. SpD/AV Amoonguss has been brought up and personally I don't see this as an argument to show how strong Thundurus is because it has other beneficial uses than just covering this Pokemon. It helps with rain matchups against Keldeo and scouting Kingdra, you are more reliable against Aegislash, it lets you beat out opposing Amoonguss, you can afford to make trades against stuff like Salamence. If you are using Tangrowth as your Thundurus check then you are better off running a Phys Def set with minor SpD investment to take it on. AV Tang in general is kinda ass rn imo and half the time I run mixed EVs anyway because I want it to deal with stuff like Lycanroc-D better. I personally run bulk on my Rotom-W because I consider Jolly Mamoswine and the Nidos to be fake as fuck so I have no problem sacrificing Speed to run some SpD bulk. This is also perfectly fine because it lets you take hits from Salamence and Hydro's from Keldeo better so there are other benefits to a spread like this. Not related to Thundurus but you could also go the other way with more Phys Def sets. Tapu Bulu is probably the only other really consistent response, which I agree is niche but if a bulkier team needs it then it is a viable option.

I think these four are the main ones that in most cases can shrug off most of what Thundurus can do and have forms of recovery to attempt to keep doing so. Ofc it's Pokemon so there are other factors not being taken into account like whether you can't keep hazards off etc. Now there are plenty of other Pokemon that check it like Rhyperior, Rotom-H, AV Glowbro, bulky Nidoqueen, Kommo-o etc. All of these hate taking a potential super effective hit or Knock Off. However, in most cases like with Nidoqueen and Kommo-o if Thundurus does not predict correctly the turn they come in then it is not successfully OHKOing them the next turn. It is forced to pivot or you trade health on both sides. Sure it has made progress wearing that Pokemon down but you are also now in a position to do so back or you've brought it into range of something else.

This only covers the defensive stuff because there are more than enough means to force it out or revenge kill it with priority, scarfers, or naturally faster Pokemon. Perhaps this is just engraved into me but I don't make teams without one or even two of these things and it isn't like we are devoid of options to choose from. While it does live some of these options listed in the last thread at full I don't think it is unreasonable to believe you can't get any form of chip onto this Pokemon whether it be trading health or Helmet damage. As mentioned in other posts there aren't many things where it just gets to come in and click buttons without being punished or the Pokemon in front of it being weakened.

Now I have predominantly been focusing on the pivot set for this because while Nasty Plot does exist it is definitely rarer and nowhere near as good or consistent as the pivot set. The checks for this do vary defensively but it also has to find that opportunity to set up because otherwise, it isn't breaking anything and can't make up for this otherwise through pivoting or Knock Off support. Overall I think Thundurus is way scarier in the builder than in practice. Thundurus is just a good Pokemon and I don't see it as anything more than this. If I do go for reqs I'll be voting DnB and probably will not change my standpoint on this.
 

Lyss

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Ever since Zeraora left the tier i found thundurus to be a problematic element in UU, and I think that the meta recently adapted to make it shine even more, and probably put it over the line even if i already considered it to be.

The main issue i have with Thundurus is how much it affects teambuilding, infact I don't think there is a single mon that can switch into it without getting punished hard outside of Tangrowth, which still doesn't like getting U-turned on at all. Going through the topic i've seen mentions to other defensive checks that can technically switch into thundurus, but half of them get ohko'd by knock off and the other half either can get 2hko'd or are mons that I don't consider very good in the current metagame. Stuff like an adapted Spdef washtom can work as a one time switch in, but once you get hit by knock+uturn you're put on a timer and can't really use it anymore. Once Thundurus gets an opportunity, it's guaranteed to make progress with very little punish, which means that the usual plan you end up going for is trying to limit it and check it offensively, but i found that to be very hard. I disagree with the argument that Thundurus is not problematic because it doesn't get many opporunities during the game, because i think it doesn't need more than 2 or 3 to open up holes for something else on your team to go off really hard, and while I don't think that Thundurus is as splashable as other high ranks mons like aegislash, I don't think it's hard to put on teams either, because it pairs really well with a lot of current trends and generally good mons. In reality, I don't think it's hard for thundurus to get many opportunities either. Current meta is extremely slow, I can't think of a mon faster than Thundurus that i consider to be decent outside of noivern and maybe crobat, and there aren't common mons outside of Lycanroc that are currently running priorities (and you can ev for this without losing too much btw 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 72 Def Thundurus: 250-296 (83.6 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ). Being faster than the whole meta while also having 0 real counterplay is the reason why i've been finding it so oppressive, it's really hard to check it offensively during the game since it can get many opportunities through pivoting.

Thundurus just reminds me of Zeraora in infinite ways and i find it even better than Zera was during that meta even if slightly less splashable. I don't think Thundurus by itself can sweep through an entire team, but the support it offers+being able to be a really good and reliable late game clean upper make it oppressive paired with a lot of other stuff. Considering ways to deal with it while also not giving other mons opportunities to go insane while building has been a headache and forced me into similar schemes a lot recently, and I don't think that keeping an element as restrictive as Thundurus while it offers nothing to the tier is something i want to do.

tl;dr i'm gonna vote ban
 
just finished getting reqs and I believe my thoughts are pretty clear. Ima be honest Thundurus isn't broken and doesn't deserve a ban, the way I see it its just a top tier presence that actually rewards good play (both when playing it and against it)

The points raised before me are ones that I agree so much with, a lot of the threat of Thundurus is based on teammates knocking things and bringing stuff in as Thundurus itself is not hard to wall. And just like Esta said if you can handle the teammates of thundy, thundy itself wont be much of a problem. This leads to Thundurus as a progress maker, if it is excessively effective at what it does it should be banned right? Well even at that role Thundurus still has its flaws, Thundy thrives when it gets in a position of forcing 50/50's that it is bound to winning whatever u do. However neutralizing thundy in the early game so that it doesn't get in that position can be rather easy, there really isn't a lot of things that Thundy immediately scares out and taking early game trades with it isn't most of the times in favor of the thundy user, which can make it much more easy to outplay.

Whenever Thundurus comes out it doesn't really have a "wrong move" that leaves it severely punished (unless u tbolt into a mamo or scarf krook) however against common team compositions like Rhyperior + RestTalk Primarina or Amoong + Krook + smth weak to electric thundy can definitively get stuck in U-Turn loops which halt progress for its team, the need to catch the rhyp with the koff or the moongus with the psychic can leave it vulnerable on doing the safest move which leads to it being chipped and overrelying in its teammates, this progress-making game goes both ways and the thundy user can end up losing before getting the conditions they need. This imo adds a healthy amount of prediction and care in the builder for the thundy user.

Now for thundy itself as a mon, I really don't feel that its very constraining in the builder especially cus its a very "outplayable mon" and it also has very neutral matchups across the board, I feel that thundy doesn't really invalidate any playstyles (or even mons) for this exact reason even with a blistering speed thundy needs to be careful around a bunch of mons thanks to its low bulk and just regular attacking stats. Even other pivots like washtom or U-Turn Moltres have better defensive profiles and are better at luring specific mons limiting the splashability of cloud boi.

NP sets are honestly not that good? this narrative that NP can beat a bunch of what pivot can't is very bare bones and kind of a stretch, Np can actually lose to AV Tang and struggles more against chansey which both are switching into you either way, even spdef amoonguss puts it to sleep (gastro is kind of a lost case tho I'll admit that)

TLDR: I'll be voting Do Not Ban. Thundy is just a strong force which sometimes relies on teammates, can be conditioned and outplayed.
 

KM

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however against common team compositions like Rhyperior + RestTalk Primarina or Amoong + Krook + smth weak to electric thundy can definitively get stuck in U-Turn loops which halt progress for its team,
this type of interaction is actually exactly what I think pushes thund over the edge. as you said, both of these defensive cores should in theory be able to handle pivot thund -- and they generally can provided it doesn't click the right moves every turn. but both of these cores also contain one similarity -- they both hard lose to standard NP thundurus. this to me is the crux of the difficulty with thundurus. most of the "reasonable" counterplay to pivot thundurus (e.g., not niche mons like flygon or togedemaru or strange sets) RELIES on switching several times -- whether it's absorbing a knock with krook and going into amoonguss on the u-turn, or pivoting between rhyperior and primarina, etc. this is the exact opposite of counterplay to the np sets, which require (obviously) hitting it hard while it's trying to set up, or harding into something like scarf krook that can revenge it as it nps.

it's not just that "things that check pivot lose to NP" -- it's that the actual playstyle and moves required to check pivot thundurus gives free turns for NP, and vice versa. to compare it to a different mon with two distinct sets, one of which is a set-up set, we can look to salamence. While DD mence and special mence have some distinct checks (nihilego checks special and loses hard to dd), they also have quite a few shared checks (primarina, togekiss, diancie) and a number of other soft checks to both sets that can generally scout either one and not be too punished (celesteela). thundurus is a special case in that trying to check one often means rolling a dice before you even get to the "hope they don't click the right moves" dice to avoid being punished by NP.
 
while i agree with many of the points that ip and twilight stated against the thundurus ban, and i personally do not believe that thundurus is more problematic and constricting than aegislash, i would like to point out a couple things that i disagree with in their posts. many people have been saying that the pivot set is the most problematic and while i agree that the set is very good, i also think that they are vastly underrating the potential of the np set and how dangerous it can be. depending on your team, it can pick and choose which pokemon it wants to beat and beats those pokemon with relative ease. i have been using the np/thunderbolt/knock/focus blast set as well as interchangeably the grass knot/psychic/sludge wave variants of these mons, and i believe those sets are very hard to deal with long term. against ill-prepared or unlucky match-up balance structures i have definitely run into some extremely favorable match-ups, although i usually do have to make predictions to secure the win. the teams that instantly lose 6-0 to the set are usually poorly built, and have many other flaws other than being 6-0'd by thundurus. having a hard check + soft check to top tier threats is not uncommon in most metas, but stuff like av amoonguss is quite easy to take advantage of given that it doesn't have access to its most broken move, and tangrowth, while being a bit harder to switch-in to due to its increased flexibility, fails to beat many of thundurus sets as well. tangrowth and amoonguss cannot 2hko thundurus and your best bet most of the time is either chipping it and sacking then trying to revenge with whatever revenge killer, or fishing for a lucky sludge bomb poison then attempting to stall out the set. it is also possible to sack pokemon in order to get regen with the av grasses in order to eventually beat the thundurus, but often times this scenario is not a 1v1 situation or ends up costing the game in order to defeat the genie. the most convincing argument to me and why i personally believe it isn't broken is the main point that ip mentioned, that it lacks sufficient amount of opportunities to come in and make progress. he also talks about balance more so having to deal with thundurus' teammates than thundurus itself, but i disagree in that thundurus can completely change its role on a team whether its a pivot set or a breaker set. this sometimes can be hard to perceive from preview and in my opinion is the main argument that the ban side has for wanting it gone.

however, i do not agree with the arguments that there are splashable long-term defensive checks to the thundy in the tier, pretty much everything that claims to check thundurus loses to one set or the other, which does not define a good check in my book. pretty much none of the grounds beat any good thundurus set other than checking in once or twice at best. as i mentioned above, it can pick and choose the pokemon that wants it to beat, which is very dangerous when paired with the multitude of other offensive threats in the tier. the way to deal with thundurus in this tier is through compound checks on teams, i.e. some sort of av grass + ground and/or speed control (your ground can be speed control in zydog/krook's case), or more niche checks like tapu bulu. it is admittedly not that bad to achieve this goal in the builder. i've found it easier to build balances and bos that can deal with thundurus and limit it to one kill max, and even in that kill i am still usually able to force a trade. it is also very possible to build teams that do not provide free switch-ins to thundurus, and pressure it offensively so that it cannot do what it seemingly is meant to do on paper. thundurus looks tougher in the builder to deal with than in reality.

the main question: is thundurus too constricting on teambuilding or too threatening in game? just because it has few hard checks and zero counters to all of its sets does not necessarily mean its constricting on the builder or broken. many of the other threats in the tier, such as rain as mentioned in other posts, give justification for pokemon that are natural checks to many of thundurus' sets. it is not difficult to work in natural checks to many of its sets without being overbearing to the rest of the team. while uturn/pivoting are the most broken move(s) in the game, any solid balance in my experience should be able to handle voltturn cores unless they are just built wrong. while it can win lots of games with strong, aggressive play, many other top ranked pokemon in the tier can boast the same feat. in this regard it is not especially broken compared to many of the other strong threats in this tier.

so where do i stand? i am in support of the suspect test, but i would most likely vote do not ban. i would rather ban aegislash instead as i've found it much more restricting in the builder to deal with, and almost mandatory on many balance and bo structures in order to be competitive. this post is a ramble, but twilight and ip articulated many of the do not ban arguments better than i did, and although i do not agree with a minority of their points, i agree with their general do not ban sentiment.
 
I think this suspect test happened way too soon. Everyone's minds are on Rain, Amoongus/Tangrowth, Aegislash, set-up sweepers (like pif's Gyarados), and Keldeo. Almost no one cares about Thundurus, and that sucks because it actually is overwhelming. Problem is, there are better mons to worry about. I think council messed up here and they should've gave into the demands of the people.

If people choose "Do Not Ban" on Thundurus now, they'll regret it later. But how would they know? They technically aren't wrong with thinking rain, aegislash, and keldeo are way more threatening. Keldeo is way more threatening off the bat. Aegislash is a little more unpredictable and a lot more splashable on teams. Rain is just scary. So, naturally people are going to think "Thundurus ain't even that good. It's more manageable than all this other stuff." And although that's true, it's a bit unfair. As, even in their own posts they can't help but admit Thundurus is very threatening.

The metagame has pretty much become = Rain vs Regen Grass + Rotom-W or Aegislash vs Bulky Offense or Keldeo takes on the world. Thundurus doesn't even hit the radar. Yet, it still manages to put in work and sweep from time to time. This would become more consistent if some of this other stuff just didn't exist. Thundurus is capable of crippling counters, maintaining constant momentum, OHKO-2HKO the vast majority of the tier with whatever set it runs. That's really scary. Problem is, other mons / rain do it better.

Rain is very fast and hits hard as soon as Pelipper hits the field. Sometimes sooner if you're running Keldeo. Bulky Offense Rain isn't as fast of a playstyle but it is more consistent and harder to deal with. Fast Rain can run whatever swift swimmer it wants to beat whatever team that stands in its way. All of this sounds scary and people talk about it A LOT.

Keldeo can run a myriad of sets, fits on any playstyle (most notably rain), and can even pick and choose what it wants to beat. With specs, it hits stupidly hard right off the bat (especially in rain), and very little handles it. It has great bulk, one of the fastest non-scarfers in the tier, and has access to flip turn.

Aegislash is a bulky, annoying tank that is the best at weakening or finishing off teams. It's very splashable and it can optimize to go HO, Stall, Mixed Offense, mixed bulk, mixed attacker, or whatever else. It can even do good on rain.

Thundurus doesn't have a lot of these qualities... It relies heavily on boots and it's not bulky at all (though it does have immunity to EQ/EP).

But! Thundurus is still a menace. In a slower paced game (especially with no Aegislash), Thundurus goes ham. Without rain sweepers, Thundurus is back to being too fast. Without Keldeo, it's back to being a glass cannon that everyone needs to watch out for. Without Aegislash, the game will change in Thundurus' favor.

So, I do hope Thundurus gets banned. It's very unhealthy and doesn't provide much good. Just, try not to think about other stuff in this suspect. Thundurus is kind of like Terrakion, try not to think about the other stuff and focus on how threatening it is.
 

Amane Misa

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I don't have anything smart to say about Thundurus because I've barely used/seen it yet but I want to introduce a relatively old playstyle.

It caught my eye when I saw ABR using Trick Room in the high ladder OU for OLT and it urged me to try it here in UU.

Before the suspect test, I used this team to maintain a ladder rating of 1600-1700 with ease. I decided that using this team exclusively for my suspect test run is a good idea to test how worthy it is to make a post about and since I almost went undefeated (30-2, 84.1% GXE) it undoubtedly is worthy.

1629715399311.png




Golurk TR with Stakataka (pokepast.es)

This is almost a copy of the version ABR used in OU, which had Melmetal > Stakataka and relatively different sets for other Pokemon, but why break something that's working.

Hatterene is your go-to lead most of the time because it will take almost every hit and proceed to use Trick Room into Healing Wish or Misty Explosion. One habit I gained through experience with the team is if the opponent has Jirachi it's okay to lead with Hatterene in order to bait the Iron Head and hard switch to Alolan Marowak on it to get a free turn. Deciding between Healing Wish, Misty Explosion or Mystical Fire is very situation but it becomes intuitive with experience. What I generally do is use Healing Wish against anything that isn't HO, Misty Explosion against HO, and Mystical Fire if my opponent decides to throw away their Aegislash for no reason. If opponents try to set up on Hatterene and you're feeling threatened you should use Misty Explosion and/or Mystical Fire regardless of the opposing team's playstyle.

The rest of the team is very straightforward; because Trick Room has limited turns, you should focus on dealing as much damage, as fast as possible. Your main breaker should be Alolan Marowak because it beats almost every UU Pokemon I can think of under Trick Room.

The two most threatening Pokemon to this team are Substitute Aegislash and SubCM Primarina. Aegislash can easily stall Trick Room turns via Substitute and King's Shield and it has the coverage to hit the entire team super effectively. Foul Play on Porygon2 is to lure it, Bonemerang on Alolan Marowak is to hit it even if it's hiding behind a Substitute, and again, some people throw their Aegislash turn 1 to Hatterene so that's nice. Also, while dealing with Aegislash, remember that Poltergeist isn't a contact move so King's Shield won't lower your Attack. As for Primarina - ever since I've used Psych Up + Psyshock Cresselia I haven't lost to it but I very much hate to sacrifise two moveslots just to handle Primarina so if anyone has a creative idea on how to deal with it please hit me up.

As for alternative options, Swords Dance > Stealth Rock on Alolan Marowak is definitely viable and good. If using that, I'd consider trying Magic Coat on Cresselia or Porygon2 to bounce Stealth Rock because breaking Focus Sash is important (it also bounces Taunt which is cool). I also used Primarina > Stakataka in the high ladder because I found the team easily threatened by Dark-types but for the low- to mid-ladder Stakataka is definitely your go-to cleaner because most of the people either use HO teams which get obliterated by Stakataka or they just don't know how to play around it. Crawdaunt was another option I tried over Golurk but its moves aren't as spammable as Golurk's and it offered nothing defensively to the team. From conversations I've had with Lily and Hogg about it, Lily told me she used Vikavolt > Golurk and Hogg told me he used Rhyperior > Stakataka. I haven't used either of the options yet but I will definitely try them in the very near future.

I hope more people try and experiment with this playstyle as it's really fun and imo has the potential to be further explored. I am feeling like since Light Clay was banned and Screens HO has fallen apart this has the potential to be the next best option for HO.
 

KM

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I don't have anything smart to say about Thundurus because I've barely used/seen it yet but I want to introduce a relatively old playstyle.

It caught my eye when I saw ABR using Trick Room in the high ladder OU for OLT and it urged me to try it here in UU.

Before the suspect test, I used this team to maintain a ladder rating of 1600-1700 with ease. I decided that using this team exclusively for my suspect test run is a good idea to test how worthy it is to make a post about and since I almost went undefeated (30-2, 84.1% GXE) it undoubtedly is worthy.

View attachment 366948



Golurk TR with Stakataka (pokepast.es)

This is almost a copy of the version ABR used in OU, which had Melmetal > Stakataka and relatively different sets for other Pokemon, but why break something that's working.

Hatterene is your go-to lead most of the time because it will take almost every hit and proceed to use Trick Room into Healing Wish or Misty Explosion. One habit I gained through experience with the team is if the opponent has Jirachi it's okay to lead with Hatterene in order to bait the Iron Head and hard switch to Alolan Marowak on it to get a free turn. Deciding between Healing Wish, Misty Explosion or Mystical Fire is very situation but it becomes intuitive with experience. What I generally do is use Healing Wish against anything that isn't HO, Misty Explosion against HO, and Mystical Fire if my opponent decides to throw away their Aegislash for no reason. If opponents try to set up on Hatterene and you're feeling threatened you should use Misty Explosion and/or Mystical Fire regardless of the opposing team's playstyle.

The rest of the team is very straightforward; because Trick Room has limited turns, you should focus on dealing as much damage, as fast as possible. Your main breaker should be Alolan Marowak because it beats almost every UU Pokemon I can think of under Trick Room.

The two most threatening Pokemon to this team are Substitute Aegislash and SubCM Primarina. Aegislash can easily stall Trick Room turns via Substitute and King's Shield and it has the coverage to hit the entire team super effectively. Foul Play on Porygon2 is to lure it, Bonemerang on Alolan Marowak is to hit it even if it's hiding behind a Substitute, and again, some people throw their Aegislash turn 1 to Hatterene so that's nice. Also, while dealing with Aegislash, remember that Poltergeist isn't a contact move so King's Shield won't lower your Attack. As for Primarina - ever since I've used Psych Up + Psyshock Cresselia I haven't lost to it but I very much hate to sacrifise two moveslots just to handle Primarina so if anyone has a creative idea on how to deal with it please hit me up.

As for alternative options, Swords Dance > Stealth Rock on Alolan Marowak is definitely viable and good. If using that, I'd consider trying Magic Coat on Cresselia or Porygon2 to bounce Stealth Rock because breaking Focus Sash is important (it also bounces Taunt which is cool). I also used Primarina > Stakataka in the high ladder because I found the team easily threatened by Dark-types but for the low- to mid-ladder Stakataka is definitely your go-to cleaner because most of the people either use HO teams which get obliterated by Stakataka or they just don't know how to play around it. Crawdaunt was another option I tried over Golurk but its moves aren't as spammable as Golurk's and it offered nothing defensively to the team. From conversations I've had with Lily and Hogg about it, Lily told me she used Vikavolt > Golurk and Hogg told me he used Rhyperior > Stakataka. I haven't used either of the options yet but I will definitely try them in the very near future.

I hope more people try and experiment with this playstyle as it's really fun and imo has the potential to be further explored. I am feeling like since Light Clay was banned and Screens HO has fallen apart this has the potential to be the next best option for HO.
This is a super cool team and I'm always happy to see more TR usage -- as you said, Aegislash is one of the main things holding it back in UU but it's still possible to make a successful team (clearly). I also used TR for my reqs, but I used a different style that I've really fallen in love with over the last few weeks, so I'm going to hop on your bandwagon and share it as well.

:ss/krookodile: :ss/tornadus: :ss/stakataka: :ss/keldeo: :ss/amoonguss: :ss/hatterene:
https://pokepast.es/0291b7378c35ba3f

Balance ft Trick Room / OTR Staka balance is a team comp i've tried a number of times over the last year, but this version of it has been the most successful. The idea is generally pretty simple -- use high-damage, high momentum mons that can rip holes in the opponent team in the early game like pivot Tornadus (please try him if you haven't already I promise he's excellent), specs Keldeo, and LO krook -- all of which allow for Stakataka to come in late game and easily finish the job. Another way to play this out is to use Stakataka's health as a resource and utilize it early game to kill a few things or break major holes in the team, and then use Hatterene to give it a second life later on with Healing Wish. Kasib Hatterene is a really cool tool for luring Aegislash without relying on CM, and 3 attacks + healingwish gives you plenty of utility without sacrificing too much in damage output. Eject Amoong is here to ease the keldeo / thund matchup, manipulate momentum, and fuck with rotom washes (i had at least 5 games that started something like this -- tornadus lead against something that felt threatened by it -> switch to rotom-wash to get acro'd and u-turned into amoonguss, which triggers eject button on the volt switch denying momentum -> LO krook for the surprise kill with knock).

In a more general sense, I think people should absolutely be exploring TR mons and teams right now. They're a really cool way to reimagine the speed metagame and neuter a lot of the threat of things like rain.
 

:ss/thundurus:

Hi again all, it's been a bit since our last one of these. As many of you have expressed recently, the tier is generally well-balanced and enjoyable, but there is one outlier in the otherwise solid state the metagame is in - that outlier is Thundurus.

Thundurus has been in the tier for a long time at this stage but for a while it took a back seat - it had to compete with the extremely omnipresent Zeraora for a teamslot, a fight it usually ended up losing. This mean that it wasn't really seen and dropped to RU as a result, but once Zeraora left for OU, Thundurus came roaring back with a vengeance and established itself as one of the premier offensive Pokemon in UU.

Thundurus has two main sets. The first is its pivot set, usually running Thunderbolt, Psychic, Knock Off and U-turn, but it has other options like Grass Knot and Focus Blast if it wants. This set has no counters outside of the niche Gastrodon; it will force progress against everything else, and is incredibly punishing against the tier's standard Electric resists in Amoonguss, Tangrowth and Zarude. This makes it a bit of a headache to prepare for because it also has a strong matchup against most of the tier's Ground-types - Krookodile just gives it a Defiant boost and takes a ton from U-turn, the Nidos can't take Psychic, Mamoswine can't take any of its attacks bar Thunderbolt, Rhyperior can check it for some time but all of these hate losing their item more than anything else and they're just U-turn fodder until they're in range.

Thundurus is also faster than most offensive Pokemon - it blazes past the likes of Keldeo, Mienshao, and Salamence, making it quite difficult to check offensively. The few Pokemon that naturally outspeed it in Starmie, Noivern, and Zygarde-10% are niche options due to them facing competition from things like Primarina, Salamence, and Krookodile, while priority from the likes of Lycanroc-D and Mamoswine is helpful but nothing Thundurus can't outlast thanks to its hazard immunity and their reliance on Life Orb to do damage. It's even capable of EVing itself to live their attacks as we've seen recently. This means that dealing with Thundurus both offensively and defensively is a very tall task.

This is all just the pivot set as well; Thundurus happens to have access to Nasty Plot, which it can run to turn matchups against typical checks like SpDef Amoonguss and Gastrodon on their heads while also being an insanely difficult breaker to deal with on offense teams, with utility as something that can resist revenge killing attempts from the likes of Choice Scarf Jirachi and Mienshao thanks to its great typing while also providing an immunity to Ground.

With all that said, Thundurus is no OHKO machine - it hardly knocks out anything in one shot at all. It's very possible for Pokemon like Kommo-o, Salamence, and Nihilego to trade blows with it in worst case scenarios, though Thundurus can simply U-turn out of the matchup to put them in range later. While they're very, very niche, we've seen some innovations on bulkier teams like Gastrodon and Flygon which can outlast Thundurus for most of a game. In addition, threats like Lycanroc-D and Mamoswine are in good positions in the meta at the moment, and their strong priority makes it possible to keep Thundurus at bay for a while. Thundurus is certainly an extremely powerful Pokemon, and community outcry for a suspect test has been growing, so here it is!

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430


Other than that, the test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UU9T (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UU9T Lily to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

Participants will have until Saturday, September 4th at 7:00 PM GMT -4 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. PLEASE DO NOT POST YOUR CONFIRMED SUSPECT RESULTS HERE - there is a dedicated thread for identifying your suspect results. Happy laddering!

At first, I didn't even consider thundurus for a ban. I considered nothing for a ban. however the thing that I'm replying to has convinced me. Seriously, just take a look at the UU tier and see the combination of Thunderbolt, Psychic, Knock Off, and U-turn. Nothing likes that except Mamoswine and Lycanroc who are both destroyed by the occasional Focus Blast. Plus Not even Lycanroc-Dusk's Tough Claws Accelrock can always do the job.

252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 276-328 (92.3 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lycanroc-Dusk: 202-238 (69.4 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, Rain is more common than ever thanks to Pelipper and Thundurus can easily rip those teams apart barring Tangrowth and either Thundurus-T or Eleki. And that's just the mixed set since it can also effectively use Nasty Plot. It's main advantage over NP Thundurus-T is that it's higher speed makes it harder to revenge kill. However like the post at the top says, Thundurus is barely a OHKO machine failing to OHKO even 0 sp def 0 HP Lycanroc-Dusk with a STAB Thunderbolt and unlike Thundurus-T, it fails to always 2HKO Chansey after a NP with Focus Blast.

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 326-384 (46.3 - 54.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 362-426 (51.4 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It also isn't that hard to revenge kill thanks to it's mediocre defenses. Nevertheless, I think Thundurus is a Pokemon that is really powerful for UU. So I'm voting to Ban it.
 

Lily

can you feel the tension rising?
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Thundurus constrains building in this tier to such an overwhelmingly unhealthy extent that I will absolutely be voting ban on it.

Anyone who talked to me back during the Zeraora meta knows how much I despised its presence in the tier. I called for its ban multiple times, knowing full well that it probably wouldn't happen because people were convinced that slapping a Tangrowth or Amoonguss on every single team they built was good enough to deal with it, so eventually I conceded and just complained about it to myself instead. Lo and behold we lost Zeraora and the metagame stabilised to a point that was significantly less contingent on being stuck together with dried-up gum and a prayer.

That was that case until Thundurus rose in popularity. It's not as good as Zeraora was but it's still so stupid. Truly look at your teams and tell me which ones you have a confident Thundurus MU with - 4 of our 5 sample teams get railed by it, I haven't been able to build anything with a safe route against it, it's just not really consistently possible at all. Thundurus constricts you into using a very specific subset of walls and speed control - its presence dictates what checks Electrics in this tier because it cripples all the checks significantly with Knock + U-turn and that eliminates options like Chansey and Zarude entirely.

I made the significant majority of my argument in the OP and don't really feel like regurgitating it; this thing has no truly consistent counterplay and the effect it has on the tier both in play and in the builder is so gross. It's no different to how Zeraora was and I truly do hope people learn from their mistakes in that situation this time around. The anti-ban sentiment so far troubles me a bit but only time will tell how this one goes I suppose.
 

pokemonisfun

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If I read the ban arguments correctly, we're being told we should ban Thundurus because it forces progress with it's significantly above average speed tier and momentum moves (U-Turn + Knock Off).

Two things have to be true for this argument to hold weight: 1) Thundurus indeed forces progress and 2) it's disruptive/strong enough to be ban worthy. I suppose a fast Knock Off basically always forces progress but that's not a particularly high bar. Scarf Krookodile by this metric always forces progress. We shouldn't be banning things on this argument unless it's obscene. Let me analyze four UUWC games briefly featuring Thundurus:

So in this UUWC tiebreaker game: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-574358 - you can see Thundurus forces some progress. But clearly you need to predict with it, in this case, it just basically got owned by a Suicune because of it's low bulk and inability to threaten Suicune with an OHKO. It Knocks Suicune off which actually positions for it to be KOd later, but clearly only because of a hax critical hit from another team member. Thundurus does basically nothing else during the game.


In another UUWC game, a pool one, you can see this is a slightly different Thundurus set, opting for Volt Switch for a stronger pivoting move and Grass Knot to handle Krookodile which blocks Volt Switch: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-574445. To say Thundurus is effective would be an understatement, it has the perfect coverage to deconstruct the enemy team and a perfect switch in opportunity in Air Slash only Togekiss. You could argue that Rob's team should have had a better Thundy counter considering Togekiss sets up a gaping hole. But Amoong and Krookodile should handle Electric types, right?

Eh, maybe, but I'm not convinced yet. A simple Sub CM Raikou would have done the exact same thing once it received an opening on Togekiss. I think it just so happens that Rob's team was surprisingly weak to Electric types.


In this UUWC pool game, both sides are using Thundurus: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-576001. It's rather clear that Lily's team is unsound defensively, but that stems from using the niche hail style / Ice types, I wouldn't blame Thundurus for that except to say Thundurus doesn't really contribute much for the team. Sabella's team fortunately for him had an Entei which pretty much roasted his opponent, without much need for Thundurus. It's a rather forgettable game for both Thunduruses.


In this UUWC game, the Thundurus doesn't do much except Knock Off turn one: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-575845. I'm not sure how to evaluate this - user error? (in which case the erroneous play shouldn't be a factor in the vote). No Electric weak mons as well.


It's just 4 games; hopefully someone else will start to look at more of them. I'm convinced of the ban side's internal logic, i.e., it makes sense to me if what they're saying is true, but so far, nothing has shown me that Thundurus forces significant progress in a large majority of games it appears in.
 

Adaam

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I'm fairly close to reqs and admit after laddering for UUWC and reqs, and reading the posts here, my stance on Thundurus has changed since my initial post pushing for a test. Indigo Plateau in particular has a (surprisingly :bloblul: ) eloquent post detailing all its flaws, and have seen those flaws in action both in recent UUWC games and on ladder. I am still slightly in favor of ban, but am open to more persuasion to change my stance. The rest of my post will attempt to explain why I am currently pro-ban and offer examples of its strengths in real games.

  1. Thundurus has a near unmatched speed tier, making it difficult to revenge kill. In terms of natural revenge killers, we have Starmie, Zygarde-10%, and Noivern. Of these, only Zygarde is not total dogshit. The burden for revenge killing Thundy thus lies in either Scarfers (which are not too common) or priority (Lycanroc or Mamoswine). Neither of the latter two are particularly splashable, and Scarfers are a lot common this gen due to the tier's overall slower pace and lack of Pursuit, in Krookodile's case. The result is Thundurus-I has near-free reign to fire off attacks with impunity. Here is a good replay showing the consequences of this: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1365899618.

    This is just UU trio tour, but observe how both players have fastest mon Thundurus. Teams that forego scarfers will all have this problem: the only way to revenge kill Thundurus is to take a hit and KO it back, which is easier said than done. Turns 5-8 show Accel making great progress with his Thundy, and pokemonisfun is forced to go into his own Thundy to revenge kill. He ends up getting a near max roll to kill it, and if he didn't he'd have to deal with a 3% or so Thundy sticking around to cause big problems for the rest of the game.

    Here is another replay from UULT where Thundy just obliterates another team that didn't use a scarfer https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-567772. Even if you do use one, it has to be one of Krookodile, Zarude, or Mienshao (somewhat revenge kills)

    You can argue that it is the builder's choice to forego a Scarfer, and therefore they deserve to be Thundy weak, but Thundy is unique in being an offensive pivot that outspeeds nearly everything AND has few defensive counters. Lycanroc is the closest Pokemon to it, although Lycan is a breaker and not a pivot. However, it's forced to run LO to effectively break, so it takes LO and hazards. Furthermore, it suffers from Helmet chip, can be weakig via King's Shield, and has an even harder time switching in. Thundurus's superior bulk, typing, and ability to wear Boots circumvents this, which brings my next point.

  2. Thundurus is damn hard to take down with passive damage. In addition, its bulk and typing are totally usable and I am unconvinced it's as hard to bring in as some users claim. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-574445 In this replay, we see Thundurus take advantage of Togekiss to come in many times to continue to break. This particular set uses Grass Knot too, so even fat Grounds like Rhyperior or Seismitoad would be useless here. You can argue Togekiss is pretty niche, and you'd be right. But consider other, more relevant mons it can come in on. Being a Flying-type, it makes you think twice before clicking EQ on Krook, or EP with Nidos. It can take a Secret Sword or Close Combat in a pinch. Hell, it can even 1v1 a passive Grass-type, because they at best hit it back for mid 30% chip.

  3. It pigeonholes you in building. What I mean by this is if, for example, you decide to run non-Scarf Krookodile, then you need to make up for the speed control somewhere. If you use Scarf Jirachi, then you will essentially forego the Thundy matchup unless you use something like Tapu Bulu or Tang (shaky check btw), because you added a Ground-type and a Scarfer that lose to Thundy. If you use Boots Zarude, the same thing applies. If you use Amoonguss, same thing applies. Your Grass-type fails to handle Thundurus, so you need to ensure your Ground-type is rock solid against it. Which is fine, but damn is that a hard task to fill. Pair them with Rhyp? Better hope it isnt GK + Volt switch like this replay https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-576082. Zygarde or Scarf Diggersby? Okay offensive checks, but cannot switch into Knock Off without being totally crippled.
However, I concede it is a lot easier to take on in practice than in the builder. It's pretty weak, so anything that can take a neutral hit well can scare it off well, such as Rotom, Entei, Salamence, Nihilego etc. None of these switch in, but in 1v1 scenarios they will likely force a U-Turn/Volt Switch out. Mid and late game, however, when mons take damage and when Thundy comes in on the Water-types and Fighting-types, that's when it's most deadly.

In conclusion, I am open to be persuaded further, but for now, I will be voting ban. Also, Nasty Plot sets are seriously underwhelming and will I will not factor them in at all in my decision.

edit: Forgot Azelf also outspeeds it oops
 
Last edited:
I decided to conduct some research on The Thundurus Dilemma to see if it really is too overbearing for the tier. I am obviously very historically anti-ban on most things, but I hadn't been too bothered lately to form an opinion on Thundurus and decided to do the following:

I got reqs with the following Thundurus team that I had been using for a bit:

1630216123903.png


The Thundurus is pretty standard that I used here:

:bw/Thundurus:
Thundurus (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic

After using this team exclusively for reqs, I ended up with the following record:

1630216209948.png


Then, I thought "gee, there's this magical lake pokemon called AZELF that seems to have all the same things Thundurus has going for it."
Azelf uses almost exactly the same pivot set: Knock Off, U-Turn, Psychic. Only difference is Flamethrower over Thunderbolt. Additionally, Azelf has slightly higher Attack so it can hit harder in most instances with Knock/U-Turn (though Thundurus does have Defiant to boost its Attack).

To be more specific, the grand majority of the pro-ban arguments on Thundurus actually apply to Azelf as well:

  • Azelf is, in fact, in a better Speed tier than Thundurus, and will Speed-tie Starmie and Zydog (Noivern is garbage and is faster than both Thundurus and Azelf). So, as Adaam mentioned in his post related to Thundurus, Azelf has basically free reign to fire off attacks with Impunity.
  • Azelf is certainly by no means "bulky", but you can hard Azelf in just about as much as you can do it with Thundurus, as their bulk is comparable. The main difference is Thundurus has some better resists (resisting Flying and Steel allows you to hard in Thundurus against Celesteela sometimes), while Azelf is not weak to priority from Lycanroc or Mamoswine (and no it doesn't take a million from Accelerock anyways, it actually only takes like 50%). Levitate gives it the same argument as Thundurus on bringing it in against Grounds, etc. And it can certainly handle the Grass-types better with STAB Psychic and Flamethrower.
  • Azelf forces progress just as much as Thundurus does with Knock and U-Turn. The main perk Thundurus has over it in this regard is you can't keep Azelf in against a Scarf U-Turn mon like Jirachi/Zarude like you could Thundurus, but that doesn't seem to stop it from making significant progress on the majority of the enemy team. In fact, it makes better progress in certain situations where you need a STAB Psychic to take down Amoonguss, etc., that Thundy could not do.
  • In Teambuilder, Azelf is probably not as constraining as Thundurus, but it might just be a mindset people have atm. While preparing for Thundurus you are also prepping for Azelf simultaneously, and you may not realize it until Thundurus is gone.

However, all of this is just talk with no data to back it up. Theorymon only takes you so far. So, I took the exact same team I had made for Thundurus and swapped Thundurus with Azelf to see what happened.

1630217110513.png


Azelf used:

:bw/Azelf:
Azelf @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Psychic
- Flamethrower

After 31 games, this was my record:

1630217063204.png


30-5 with Thundurus, 26-5 with Azelf (I couldn't be bothered to do the last 4 games). Here are some replays I saved for both teams:

Thundurus game (vs standard Mareanie UU Offensive Balance): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1401386709-tt9sryeo1y0x23h5fnbkmmzr937toyupw
Thundurus game (vs Rain balance): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1403341650-bs2jslu2yvxx2pphqakayoc0pdrwzlqpw
Thundurus game (vs Zarude balance): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1401914148-myf04wr0pz2ws363266h7mbjns3eoy9pw

Azelf game (vs rain): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1405676460-vey1a1h5dtc1h2d2u9bc1qg2cxx0lqkpw
Azelf game (vs semistall): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1405710753-086yuwtcv85mjj6h6mrhj6pbjqlqg0hpw
Azelf game (vs spikes HO): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1405954037-sq244uv8lwi2eirz9jj3881t0t3fghvpw
Azelf game (vs generic UU regen balance): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1405354430


Admittedly I didn't click Save Replay on enough Thundurus games as I was more focused on getting reqs (it was my reqs account after all).

To be clear, I am not trying to say that Azelf is better than Thundurus, or even that it is just as good. In fact, I am not really trying to say much at all and am just presenting the data that I found so that you can use it however you wish. I can say pretty confidently that I do not think my team with Thundurus was significantly better than the team with Azelf and they both performed fairly equally. There are obviously matchups where I thought "A Thundurus would have been better here", and vice versa for Azelf. Thundurus was the better pick mostly when things like Primarina and Celesteela are on the enemy side. However, Azelf seemed to make better progress against teams that relied on passive Grass-types for their defensive backbone.

It seems to me that, at the very least, Azelf seems to be able to accomplish almost as much as Thundurus can in the same manner (it also has a better NP set). I cannot imagine anyone is thinking of banning Azelf though, but I could be mistaken!

Cheers, and happy weekend.
 

KM

slayification
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I decided to conduct some research on The Thundurus Dilemma to see if it really is too overbearing for the tier. I am obviously very historically anti-ban on most things, but I hadn't been too bothered lately to form an opinion on Thundurus and decided to do the following:

I got reqs with the following Thundurus team that I had been using for a bit:

View attachment 368155

The Thundurus is pretty standard that I used here:

:bw/Thundurus:
Thundurus (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic

After using this team exclusively for reqs, I ended up with the following record:

View attachment 368156

Then, I thought "gee, there's this magical lake pokemon called AZELF that seems to have all the same things Thundurus has going for it."
Azelf uses almost exactly the same pivot set: Knock Off, U-Turn, Psychic. Only difference is Flamethrower over Thunderbolt. Additionally, Azelf has slightly higher Attack so it can hit harder in most instances with Knock/U-Turn (though Thundurus does have Defiant to boost its Attack).

To be more specific, the grand majority of the pro-ban arguments on Thundurus actually apply to Azelf as well:

  • Azelf is, in fact, in a better Speed tier than Thundurus, and will Speed-tie Starmie and Zydog (Noivern is garbage and is faster than both Thundurus and Azelf). So, as Adaam mentioned in his post related to Thundurus, Azelf has basically free reign to fire off attacks with Impunity.
  • Azelf is certainly by no means "bulky", but you can hard Azelf in just about as much as you can do it with Thundurus, as their bulk is comparable. The main difference is Thundurus has some better resists (resisting Flying and Steel allows you to hard in Thundurus against Celesteela sometimes), while Azelf is not weak to priority from Lycanroc or Mamoswine (and no it doesn't take a million from Accelerock anyways, it actually only takes like 50%). Levitate gives it the same argument as Thundurus on bringing it in against Grounds, etc. And it can certainly handle the Grass-types better with STAB Psychic and Flamethrower.
  • Azelf forces progress just as much as Thundurus does with Knock and U-Turn. The main perk Thundurus has over it in this regard is you can't keep Azelf in against a Scarf U-Turn mon like Jirachi/Zarude like you could Thundurus, but that doesn't seem to stop it from making significant progress on the majority of the enemy team. In fact, it makes better progress in certain situations where you need a STAB Psychic to take down Amoonguss, etc., that Thundy could not do.
  • In Teambuilder, Azelf is probably not as constraining as Thundurus, but it might just be a mindset people have atm. While preparing for Thundurus you are also prepping for Azelf simultaneously, and you may not realize it until Thundurus is gone.

However, all of this is just talk with no data to back it up. Theorymon only takes you so far. So, I took the exact same team I had made for Thundurus and swapped Thundurus with Azelf to see what happened.

View attachment 368162

Azelf used:

:bw/Azelf:
Azelf @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Psychic
- Flamethrower

After 31 games, this was my record:

View attachment 368161

30-5 with Thundurus, 26-5 with Azelf (I couldn't be bothered to do the last 4 games). Here are some replays I saved for both teams:

Thundurus game (vs standard Mareanie UU Offensive Balance): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1401386709-tt9sryeo1y0x23h5fnbkmmzr937toyupw
Thundurus game (vs Rain balance): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1403341650-bs2jslu2yvxx2pphqakayoc0pdrwzlqpw
Thundurus game (vs Zarude balance): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1401914148-myf04wr0pz2ws363266h7mbjns3eoy9pw

Azelf game (vs rain): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1405676460-vey1a1h5dtc1h2d2u9bc1qg2cxx0lqkpw
Azelf game (vs semistall): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1405710753-086yuwtcv85mjj6h6mrhj6pbjqlqg0hpw
Azelf game (vs spikes HO): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1405954037-sq244uv8lwi2eirz9jj3881t0t3fghvpw
Azelf game (vs generic UU regen balance): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1405354430


Admittedly I didn't click Save Replay on enough Thundurus games as I was more focused on getting reqs (it was my reqs account after all).

To be clear, I am not trying to say that Azelf is better than Thundurus, or even that it is just as good. In fact, I am not really trying to say much at all and am just presenting the data that I found so that you can use it however you wish. I can say pretty confidently that I do not think my team with Thundurus was significantly better than the team with Azelf and they both performed fairly equally. There are obviously matchups where I thought "A Thundurus would have been better here", and vice versa for Azelf. Thundurus was the better pick mostly when things like Primarina and Celesteela are on the enemy side. However, Azelf seemed to make better progress against teams that relied on passive Grass-types for their defensive backbone.

It seems to me that, at the very least, Azelf seems to be able to accomplish almost as much as Thundurus can in the same manner (it also has a better NP set). I cannot imagine anyone is thinking of banning Azelf though, but I could be mistaken!

Cheers, and happy weekend.
(though Thundurus does have Defiant to boost its Attack)

i get the point but this is not a parenthetical you can just slap on, it's pretty much the crux of what makes pivot thund overbearing. it's infinitely easier to pivot around azelf than it is thundurus because your physical walls with intimidate (krook, mence (2 and 3 usage in the tier), incineroar for the one person running it) actively buff thundurus. taking parallel scenarios --

+1 0 Atk Thundurus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 70-83 (21.1 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
+1 0 Atk Thundurus U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 204-242 (61.6 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 0 Atk Azelf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 34-40 (10.2 - 12%) -- possible 9HKO
-1 0 Atk Azelf U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 100-118 (30.2 - 35.6%) -- 26.7% chance to 3HKO


we're talking about different magnitudes of offensive pressure as pivots. krookodile with literally any chip at all can not switch into knock + u-turn, and attempting to pivot out after the first knock risks prediction and getting hit with another boosted knock. for azelf, krook can mindlessly switch in on knock and threaten something else with eq/knock/toxic -- or choose to switch out with minimal threat because the worst case scenario is "getting hit by a -1 knock", not "getting hit by a +1 knock".

this feeds into the sentiment expressed many times throughout this thread of thund having very few bad clicks. in this scenario, azelf NEEDS to click the right moves to maintain momentum and not lose pressure. thund can very often mindlessly click knock and never be punished.

if anything, the comparison between azelf and thund only serves to distinguish a good, but not broken pivot from one that actively overcentralizes the tier. pivot azelf IS a good mon, but it isn't mindless in the way it makes progress -- it relies on intelligent play and predictions. thundurus can click through lines that azelf can not.
 
I wanted to make this post yesterday but didn't for some reason so I'm making it now

I'm actually quite surprised at the low amount of pro-ban arguments for thundurus, especially since before this test we had like 6 in succession. In general, I haven't seen / been a part of too many discussions around this Pokemon and that sucks because I feel this test needs more discussion on Thundurus's place in the tier. Enough rambling though, I stated I was pro ban for thundurus in my post in the last thread and want to say after testing that I still am. I'm not the type to ban stuff really, especially after getting more used to the community and growing as a player. Hell, I will defend aegislash being balanced to the grave. I'm not going to focus on thundurus in game too much since I don't have great replays because, you know, ladder, so I'm going to focus on my personal reason why I would want it gone: the effect it has on the teambuilder due to its limited counterplay.

I'm going to try and make this post as unique from Adaam's as possible but I may as well recap options to deal with Thundurus in the builder. Thundurus is deceptively bulky, being able to eat most neutral hits in the tier, and has a great defensive typing of electric and flying, allowing it to have a U-turn resistance and handle grass, fighting, and steel-type attacks. In terms of revenge killers, we have the following: starmie, azelf, zygarde-10%, and noivern are the only ones that can do so that I consider "decent" in the metagame (in case I haven't specified I think anything B+ and higher is good with some B ranks like Umbreon fitting the category as well). However, these Pokemon are all kinda hard to fit on teams. I'm not really using zygarde unless I choose to build around it, same with azelf and to a lesser degree LO starmie. Noivern is the closest to what I consider a "glue mon" that can fulfill necessarily holes in teambuilding during the later stage, and even then it faces tough competition from salamence who is a consistent A+ Pokemon and arguably in many players' top 5 or 7 mons in the tier. None of these guaranteed an OHKO on it except locking into outrage for zydog. Same applies to super effective priority, mamo and lycan aren't the most reliable due to being worn down by LO + hazards, with the former being tough to fit on teams due to being a ground with little defensive utility and lycan not even guaranteeing to KO with 72 defense EVs preventing accelrock from killing. In terms of choice scarf users, we have 5: krook, mienshao, zarude, washer, and jirachi. If any of them take a knock, they're fucked essentially and only two can actually OHKO it from full. You also only fit one of these on a team so you need to accommodate the slot somewhere else. This is a pretty shaky list of Pokemon that would revenge kill it as most are either tough to fit on teams or unreliable. Its not like Keldeo or aegislash where one can naturally fit 2-3 good Pokemon as checks to them on a team.

Thundurus also has limited defensive counterplay. Electric resists and immunities like Kommo-o, amoonguss, and the nidos hate psychic. Tangrowth and AV glowbro gets Knocked and chipped with U-turn to the point where its attacks can KO them. Plus, even if they can still 1v1 thundurus, they get beaten by other special attackers they can no longer wall like keldeo or salamence, meaning that even though thundurus doesn't directly beat them it has still done enough to leave them in a dogshit spot. Rhyp, gastrodon, and seismitoad are decent checks though two of them have no reliable recovery, and god forbit it runs Volt Switch + Grass Knot otherwise you're screwed. Nihilego hates Knock, doesn't want to switch into psychic too many times, and just effortlessly gets U-turned on, Krook takes a million from U-turn, and while bulu and umbreon do work as checks they certainly don't fit on every team. Most of the time, counterplay to thundurus on a team involves one, maybe two "checks" with other mons being able to trade with it in a 1v1. The thing is, though, thundurus has the ability to take on teams filled with its so called "counterplay." See the replay down below.

[Gen 8] UU replay: Luirromen vs. kamisama_no49 - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)

Now, I'm not gonna analyze all 100+ turns to see if the losing player unnecessarily fucked up or something because I don't really care. Here is a team with a zygarde as an offensive check, diancie as a defensive check, and a wish jirachi. The wish jirachi is especially important, as it solves the longevity issues diancie has when checking thundurus. This team looks equipped to handle thundurus, right? Well, it still goes ham by keeping zarude on the backfoot checking both krook and washer who threaten the team a fair bit, especially the former. It still knocks and chips both diancie and jirachi, wearing them down for other teammates like Buzzwole to have an easier time beating them. We are talking about a team that has pretty solid Thundurus counterplay, and still struggles to beat it.

Additionally, most well built teams have not so great counterplay to thundurus while still beating the majority of the meta. Here are a few teams from both samples and the teambuilding lab made by talented builders like Twilight, avarice, and myself (had to do a subtle flex lol)

Buzzwole + SD Diggersby Sticky Webs (pokepast.es)
LO Mienshao (pokepast.es)
fightspam + fs bro (pokepast.es)


Now this isn't necessarily to say these teams aren't great, they are fucking amazing. However, offensive teams struggle to fit thundurus counterplay. My webs team doesn't have a dedicated check, rather relying on necrozma / azelf / thundurus-t to trade with it and diggersby to revenge it with quick attack. These are frail mons, essentially meaning I have to sack at least one of them to stop thundurus. LO shao only has scarf washer to outspeed it and the rest pretty much lose or trade with it. The last team relies on a mienshao to revenge it, a tang to chip it with helmet though it can easily get knocked by another mon, and glowbro to trade with it but lose its assault vest in the process. These are just a few teams, most offensive teams I see have thundurus counterplay as one or two revenge killers and the rest as pokemon that can trade with it, making thundurus a ferocious late game cleaner once the team is weakened in addition to being a stellar wallbreaker. Are we fine with this? Having limited actual checks and most counterplay essentially boiling down to hope you can trade with it? I'm not saying this doesn't work, thundurus is somewhat piss weak and often needs rolls to 2HKO bulkier mons. I've done this before where I used something like a rotom-wash or salamence to trade with it. It works, but is this what we want? I certainly think thundurus has limited counterplay to where it puts a strain on the builder limiting our options to unreliable checks for the most part. The player often often has to rely on making trades with thundurus to take it out. I'm unable to get reqs with school starting up again, but I think removing thundurus from the tier would certainly be in our best interest. That being said, I also do see a future where thundurus can be fine in UU and would not mind giving it another shot if the larger playerbase thinks it should be retested if it gets banned.

To sum up if you don't want to read all of this (you are amazing if you do though), Thundurus restricts the builder by limiting counterplay to few true defensive and offensive checks. Most revenge killers are unreliable due to not being able to OHKO it, same with defensive checks due to their tendency to be crippled by knock off and worn down to the point where they can be KOed. Well built teams fold to thundurus without making trades, and teams that do prepare well for thundurus can be taken advantage of by an alternate pivot set or just getting beaten outright by its main set. Thundurus's most simple counterplay is trading with something that can eat a hit from hit, though this is certainly unreliable as it can clean late game. To finish up, I also don't believe the nasty plot set is banworthy nor too good, it struggles to muscle through stuff the pivot set can beat like chansey and the AV mons. Once nasty plot is revealed it becomes less threatening due to the lack of its ability to pivot and knock.
 
Last edited:
Sup everyone. This suspect gave me the chance to finally play some UU. As it is, I don't have any strong opinions about Thundy and don't plan on voting as of rn. Nevertheless, I wanted to share my team with everyone because I had an awful experience getting reqs (internet provider fucked me up when I got paired to someone 300 points less). but thankfully I was able to do so: https://pokepast.es/64ffbd241f44373a

1630444012409.png
1630444039880.png
1630444090724.png
1630444098729.png
1630444105566.png
1630444111278.png

As uu9t kmx (don't know who they are but SO to them) said:

dogshit.png


I honestly just wanted to post the team to not feel like all my pain was worthless. I guess the only funny part is that steela has Leech Seed because I saw someone using pain split on Nihi to beat Blissey, so I tried Leech Seed to beat Chansey. Yes, it only worked twice and flame would've been miles better, but it was pretty funny.

All I have to say is that thundy didn't feel like an awful pain (even when it can come to revenge all my team). Maybe it is because my team isn't build to switch around in the first place, but Idk. I am also amazed at the lack of thundys on the ladder. I fought maybe 4 people using it (3 of them using NP). That might suggest that everything people point out about thundy is mere theorycrafting.

One last thing. Why are reqs 50 games with 80 gxe like OU? It was such a pain cause UU has a great playerbase (as in, cool players) but a really small one. Out of my 53 matches, I bet I only fought 20 different people. In fact, I fought against uu9t kmx a total of 4 times (maybe it was 5 haha). This is on top of me playing on different days and different times.

Anyway, gl to everyone still trying to get reqs :]
 

:ss/thundurus:

Hi again all, it's been a bit since our last one of these. As many of you have expressed recently, the tier is generally well-balanced and enjoyable, but there is one outlier in the otherwise solid state the metagame is in - that outlier is Thundurus.

Thundurus has been in the tier for a long time at this stage but for a while it took a back seat - it had to compete with the extremely omnipresent Zeraora for a teamslot, a fight it usually ended up losing. This mean that it wasn't really seen and dropped to RU as a result, but once Zeraora left for OU, Thundurus came roaring back with a vengeance and established itself as one of the premier offensive Pokemon in UU.

Thundurus has two main sets. The first is its pivot set, usually running Thunderbolt, Psychic, Knock Off and U-turn, but it has other options like Grass Knot and Focus Blast if it wants. This set has no counters outside of the niche Gastrodon; it will force progress against everything else, and is incredibly punishing against the tier's standard Electric resists in Amoonguss, Tangrowth and Zarude. This makes it a bit of a headache to prepare for because it also has a strong matchup against most of the tier's Ground-types - Krookodile just gives it a Defiant boost and takes a ton from U-turn, the Nidos can't take Psychic, Mamoswine can't take any of its attacks bar Thunderbolt, Rhyperior can check it for some time but all of these hate losing their item more than anything else and they're just U-turn fodder until they're in range.

Thundurus is also faster than most offensive Pokemon - it blazes past the likes of Keldeo, Mienshao, and Salamence, making it quite difficult to check offensively. The few Pokemon that naturally outspeed it in Starmie, Noivern, and Zygarde-10% are niche options due to them facing competition from things like Primarina, Salamence, and Krookodile, while priority from the likes of Lycanroc-D and Mamoswine is helpful but nothing Thundurus can't outlast thanks to its hazard immunity and their reliance on Life Orb to do damage. It's even capable of EVing itself to live their attacks as we've seen recently. This means that dealing with Thundurus both offensively and defensively is a very tall task.

This is all just the pivot set as well; Thundurus happens to have access to Nasty Plot, which it can run to turn matchups against typical checks like SpDef Amoonguss and Gastrodon on their heads while also being an insanely difficult breaker to deal with on offense teams, with utility as something that can resist revenge killing attempts from the likes of Choice Scarf Jirachi and Mienshao thanks to its great typing while also providing an immunity to Ground.

With all that said, Thundurus is no OHKO machine - it hardly knocks out anything in one shot at all. It's very possible for Pokemon like Kommo-o, Salamence, and Nihilego to trade blows with it in worst case scenarios, though Thundurus can simply U-turn out of the matchup to put them in range later. While they're very, very niche, we've seen some innovations on bulkier teams like Gastrodon and Flygon which can outlast Thundurus for most of a game. In addition, threats like Lycanroc-D and Mamoswine are in good positions in the meta at the moment, and their strong priority makes it possible to keep Thundurus at bay for a while. Thundurus is certainly an extremely powerful Pokemon, and community outcry for a suspect test has been growing, so here it is!

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430


Other than that, the test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UU9T (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UU9T Lily to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

Participants will have until Saturday, September 4th at 7:00 PM GMT -4 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. PLEASE DO NOT POST YOUR CONFIRMED SUSPECT RESULTS HERE - there is a dedicated thread for identifying your suspect results. Happy laddering!

i don't know about thund but the music of choice is flipping good, bloody hell!
 

pokemonisfun

Free chess/UU tutoring for UU players Neigh. Perf.
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
It's a bit late but one thing that has interested me recently from a ladder game is how well Thundurus can function even when it's on absurdly low health.

The replay unfortunately I cannot share but Thundurus can last so long at 19% and constantly put pressure vs a Mantine/Chansey/Aegislash/Curse Mamoswine. Perhaps it's just the nature of fighting a weakened stall team? But I don't know for sure and would have liked to see this point developed more as I'm still unsure how to vote.

I think someone wrote about it here or on discord but cannot find it. If anyone has insights, that would be appreciated.

Ignore the fact the Mamoswine set was walled by a 30% Primarina...
 

Magnum

summer fun
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
With the suspect test coming to a close and the voting ongoing, I'd like to share my experiences throughout the suspect despite the fact I didn't get reqs due to some rotten luck and irl business.

I'd like to think that most people that can vote will vote for a ban purely for how much pressure it can put on someone in the builder and how much progress it can make during a game, which i'll go into detail below. At first I was undecided on whether to ban it, but after taking a closer look at how Thundurus functions within the tier it seemed that banning it would be the right course of action.

I'm aware that others have made similar points to what i'm gonna bring up so yea, that's mainly just cause that's the facts!

Thundurus in the Teambuilder

To have a proper grasp on how much Thundy affects the teambuilding process, it's important to have a look at the tier as a whole and the most popular sets it uses, so here we go!

:ss/thundurus:

Thundurus (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe OR 72 Def / 188 SpA / 248 Spe
Naive Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Knock Off
- Psychic / Sludge Wave / Grass Knot
- U-turn

This the most common, well-known pivot set that sparked the Thundurus discussion. With it's fantastic 111 Speed tier, it's able to outspeed common threats like Keldeo, Zarude and Salamence, pairing that with it's solid coverage and utility moves in U-turn, Knock Off, Psychic and Sludge Wave and great power makes it a tride and true threat in the metagame. The additional EV spread lets it live a Lycanroc-D Accelerock from full, which can be extremely crucial in some matchups, though othertimes situational. Now, lets take a look at the tier - on top of other viable picks to choose from :

Screen Shot 2021-09-05 at 1.19.01 pm.png


This is the gang vs the electric overlord, now lets take into consideration how many Pokemon are beaten by Thundurus


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These are the Pokemon that lose to the sets, with Red being Psychic, Blue being Sludge Wave and Purple being the defensively invested spread. As you can see, umbreon is actually buttcheeks do not use it Thundy has quite a large grasp on the tier, with Knock Off coming into play with a large majority of these Pokemon, like Amoonguss, Chansey, Jirachi, Krookodile, Rhyperior and Slowbro-G. Knock Off really amplifies Thundurus' abilities to dismantle teams since a lot of the Pokemon that check it rely on their item. Take Rhyperior for example: it can switch into TBolt and either coverage move somewhat safely, but the fact that it relies on its Leftovers to be a functioning check makes it extremely susceptible to Thundurus, and once knocked it has free reign. The same goes for the likes of Rotom-Heat, Rotom-Wash and Salamence who i forgot to cross off but in gets destroyed by both Tbolt AND Knock AND Salamence gives it a defiant boost so yeah that gets crossed out too. This is where the similarities to Zeraora start to kick in: It's ability to make progress on a team, even if the opposing team has numerous checks, due to how much pressure it puts on them in the builder. Eventually, you've either taken out Thundurus thanks to revenge killers or you've succumbed to it and lost. I could probably write more on this but others have so I'll move on ^^

What it's capable of and synergies

This tends to be where a lot of the anti-ban arguments come from, stating that it doesn't end up doing as much in the tier as many people think and often struggles to get itself in in the first place. Other posts like Monky's and Adaam's have a bunch of replays and comment on them and what Thundy does in the game, so definitely go read those. Instead, I'm here to talk about it's incredible synergy with other Pokemon that let it get away with doing what it wants.

:ss/keldeo:

We're all familiar with Keldeo and what it does in the tier: it's a fantastic breaker with a great speed tier that is often hard to switch into, though Pokemon such as Amoonguss, Tangrowth, Chansey and Salamence can sometimes switch in safely and handle it somewhat. Keldeo loves these Pokemon being pressured or crippled so it can run free and click buttons as it pleases. It's synergy with Thundurus is fantastic, being able to overwhelm the likes of Salamence and Amoonguss and can cripple Tangrowth and Chansey by knocking off their Assualt Vest and Eviolite respectively. Keldeo in return is able to get rid of Nihilego, Mamoswine and The fact that these two can also form a momentum-based core (but really you shouldn't use Flip on Keldeo) and chip down their opponents while giving them a safe switch-in is bonkers.

:ss/mienshao: :ss/zarude:

Two other incredible pivots that can cover other Pokemon for Thundurus, with Zarude checking Rhyperior, Rotom-W and Krookodile whereas Mienshao can deal with Mamoswine and Chansey while also providing more crucial pivoting support. I won't go much into detail about these two but their ability to take hits, divvy out pressure and form effective cores with Thundurus make them exceptional teammates and lets Thundurus really focus on either wallbreaking or cleaning

:ss/roserade: :ss/Krookodile: :ss/Kommo-o:

It's no surprise that Thundurus follows a similar trend to Zeraora in that it loves hazard support. Getting that extra little bit of chip is insanely crucial for Thundurus as it turns it into a terrifying cleaner, capable of wiping out a weakened team and securing the win. Another thing that i'll add is that Thundurus' access to Knock Off and Defiant makes it an exceptional pick on hazard stacking teams, getting rid of Heavy Duty Boots so that they can't switch in again without having to suffer an insane amount of damage where Defiant acts as Defog deterrent, heavily discouraging hazard removal - which is already rare within the tier. Here's a few examples of how crucial hazard support can really be:

252 SpA Thundurus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 146-174 (36.1 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Thundurus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 146-174 (36.1 - 43%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes

252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Umbreon: 94-112 (23.8 - 28.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Umbreon: 94-112 (23.8 - 28.4%) -- 95.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 3 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

*also consider that leftovers will more than likely be knocked off

252 SpA Thundurus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego: 152-180 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Thundurus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego: 152-180 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

0 Atk Thundurus U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zarude: 220-260 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Thundurus U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zarude: 220-260 (62.6 - 74%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes

252 SpA Thundurus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 348-410 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Thundurus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 348-410 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes

I'm aware that some of those probably aren't the best examples but they do show how important the chip damage can really be for Thundurus

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Now that i'm done my massive essay for why this silly mon should be banned I'd like to drop some of fun teams i used on ladder during the suspect, though i unfortunately didn't get reqs they're still fun! have a great day/afternoon/night!

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