Metagame np: Stage 1 - Building Steam With a Grain of Salt (Throh and Sneasel BANNED, read post #143)

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Dell

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song


Hello everyone! It's been decided that come February when our tier shift happens, we try something different with our main thread. We'll be running them via np threads from here on out each tier shift, as each will introduce a new metagame and such new threads help distinguish that fact.

Following up on TRC's departure as council member, this month brings us some very interesting updates in our metagame. Pawinard, Armaldo, Torkoal, and Probopass now become PU. Unfortunately, this comes with a price of having to say goodbye to our two iconic threats in Bouffalant and Scyther as they find their new homes in NU.

As always, we encourage everyone to discuss about the new drops and anything else related to PU. To quote Molk, here are as follows:

Molk said: said:
  • New Stage - If there are tier shifts, make some predictions on what the metagame will be like or comment on the changes
  • Suspect Testing - If you believe that anything is worthy of a suspect test, post about it and why you think it deserves a suspect test. (nothing will be chosen as a suspect until at least two weeks in though, if even that)
  • Metagame trends - What are the most common or effective strategies? Are there any Pokemon that you think will rise in usage?
  • Top threats - What should the main priorities be when considering a team for NU?
  • Playstyles - Which are most effective? Are there any that cannot succeed?
  • Cores - What are some popular or solid cores? Why do they work so well, and what can be used to beat them?
  • Underrated Pokemon - Just because a Pokemon isn't used much doesn't mean its bad! There are plenty of hidden gems scattered throughout low NU and PU, and possibly even Little Cup!
  • New sets - If you have a unique set that you've had success with recently, share it.
| 58 | Probopass | 3.231% |
| 59 | Torkoal | 3.143% |
| 60 | Ninetales | 3.101% |
| 61 | Armaldo | 2.999% |
| 62 | Kecleon | 2.840% |
| 63 | Togetic | 2.824% |
| 64 | Pawniard | 2.499% |
| 65 | Pangoro | 2.478% |
| 66 | Kadabra | 2.320% |
| 67 | Prinplup | 2.299% |
| 68 | Sneasel | 2.177% |
| 69 | Leafeon | 2.075% |
| 70 | Poliwrath | 2.021% |
| 71 | Glalie | 2.014% |
| 72 | Stoutland | 1.924% |
| 73 | Tangela | 1.872% |
| 74 | Gourgeist-Super | 1.765% |
| 75 | Dusclops | 1.739% |
| 76 | Haunter | 1.708% |
| 77 | Dusknoir | 1.690% |
| 78 | Raichu | 1.644% |
| 79 | Tauros | 1.551% |
| 80 | Barbaracle | 1.544% |
| 81 | Chatot | 1.500% |
| 82 | Flareon | 1.486% |
| 83 | Pelipper | 1.438% |
| 84 | Dragalge | 1.430% |
| 85 | Hippopotas | 1.385% |
| 86 | Piloswine | 1.353% |
| 87 | Avalugg | 1.125% |
| 88 | Leavanny | 1.090% |
| 89 | Articuno | 1.089% |
| 90 | Ditto | 1.068% |
| 91 | Lapras | 1.064% |
| 92 | Jumpluff | 1.043% |
| 93 | Throh | 1.029% |
| 94 | Grumpig | 0.991% |
| 95 | Slaking | 0.987% |
| 96 | Torterra | 0.979% |
| 97 | Lickilicky | 0.953% |
| 98 | Aurorus | 0.945% |
| 99 | Floatzel | 0.941% |
| 100 | Volbeat | 0.920% |
| 101 | Regigigas | 0.919% |
| 102 | Victreebel | 0.893% |
| 103 | Carracosta | 0.882% |
| 104 | Drifblim | 0.859% |
| 105 | Rapidash | 0.858% |
| 106 | Swanna | 0.843% |
| 107 | Regice | 0.840% |
| 108 | Slurpuff | 0.840% |
| 109 | Linoone | 0.839% |
| 110 | Sliggoo | 0.818% |
| 111 | Ninjask | 0.815% |
| 112 | Mr. Mime | 0.812% |
| 113 | Sawsbuck | 0.811% |
| 114 | Shedinja | 0.754% |
| 115 | Beheeyem | 0.750% |
| 116 | Meowstic | 0.745% |
| 117 | Electrode | 0.740% |
| 118 | Arbok | 0.734% |
| 119 | Lopunny | 0.734% |
| 120 | Frogadier | 0.712% |
| 121 | Ursaring | 0.702% |
| 122 | Huntail | 0.693% |
| 123 | Golem | 0.692% |
| 124 | Swoobat | 0.679% |
| 125 | Rampardos | 0.677% |
| 126 | Zebstrika | 0.671% |
| 127 | Roselia | 0.662% |
| 128 | Gogoat | 0.655% |
| 129 | Carbink | 0.646% |
| 130 | Pikachu | 0.644% |
| 131 | Relicanth | 0.635% |
| 132 | Kingler | 0.601% |
| 133 | Dodrio | 0.590% |
| 134 | Glaceon | 0.583% |
| 135 | Altaria | 0.577% |
| 136 | Sceptile | 0.568% |
| 137 | Basculin | 0.562% |
| 138 | Persian | 0.543% |
| 139 | Beedrill | 0.535% |
| 140 | Gourgeist-Small | 0.524% |
| 141 | Rotom-Frost | 0.521% |
| 142 | Misdreavus | 0.489% |
| 143 | Marowak | 0.480% |
| 144 | Ariados | 0.465% |
| 145 | Furfrou | 0.460% |
| 146 | Luxray | 0.459% |
| 147 | Meganium | 0.428% |
| 148 | Monferno | 0.421% |
| 149 | Simipour | 0.403% |
| 150 | Metang | 0.387% |
| 151 | Machoke | 0.384% |
| 152 | Lumineon | 0.380% |
| 153 | Mightyena | 0.377% |
| 154 | Pineco | 0.372% |
| 155 | Masquerain | 0.371% |
| 156 | Stunfisk | 0.362% |
| 157 | Heatmor | 0.360% |
| 158 | Purugly | 0.356% |
| 159 | Zweilous | 0.350% |
| 160 | Wartortle | 0.342% |
| 161 | Dedenne | 0.338% |
| 162 | Dragonair | 0.327% |
| 163 | Tropius | 0.311% |
| 164 | Golduck | 0.308% |
| 165 | Pidgeot | 0.307% |
| 166 | Simisear | 0.301% |
| 167 | Octillery | 0.293% |
| 168 | Politoed | 0.287% |
| 169 | Murkrow | 0.285% |
| 170 | Lampent | 0.279% |
| 171 | Wigglytuff | 0.279% |
| 172 | Whiscash | 0.273% |
| 173 | Gigalith | 0.271% |
| 174 | Bastiodon | 0.269% |
| 175 | Vullaby | 0.269% |
| 176 | Fraxure | 0.244% |
| 177 | Electabuzz | 0.244% |
| 178 | Noctowl | 0.236% |
| 179 | Kricketune | 0.230% |
| 180 | Walrein | 0.228% |
| 181 | Duosion | 0.226% |
| 182 | Magcargo | 0.225% |
| 183 | Hypno | 0.216% |
| 184 | Quilladin | 0.210% |
| 185 | Beartic | 0.201% |
| 186 | Seviper | 0.200% |
| 187 | Raticate | 0.192% |
| 188 | Braixen | 0.190% |
| 189 | Vigoroth | 0.174% |
| 190 | Solrock | 0.167% |
| 191 | Girafarig | 0.160% |
| 192 | Wailord | 0.159% |
| 193 | Simisage | 0.154% |
| 194 | Frillish | 0.153% |
| 195 | Wormadam-Trash | 0.144% |
| 196 | Tentacool | 0.135% |
| 197 | Emolga | 0.134% |
| 198 | Butterfree | 0.134% |
| 199 | Dustox | 0.133% |
| 200 | Swalot | 0.132% |


This thread will operate the same way as the previous main thread, and as such we encourage you to have fun here! We also encourage you guys to check our PU PS! room also, as like in this forum, we hold everyone accountable for being good presences and promoting intelligent discussion and activity with our users.

Apart from that, just go to town and enjoy PU!

Current PU banlist:
Garbodor
Kecleon
Musharna
Throh
Chatter
 
Hi my name is Poliwrath and I approve this tier shift

Anyway aside from Poliwrath managing to get even better, this was a really cool tier shift. We got three really cool mons, all of which should be pretty decent. However, my favorite of them at least from the looks of it is Probopass. While defensive sets are certainly viable, I really like offensive pivot sets. This is the set I have been using:


Probopass @ Air Balloon / Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe
Modest Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Earth Power

We haven't had any pivots that work really well on offensive teams since Musharna was banned, but now Probopass fills that role quite nicely. Probopass can switch in on threats like Misdreavus, Mr. Mime, Pawniard, Dodrio, Haunter, Chatot, Ninetales, Armaldo, and Avalugg, and then get up SR and pivot out. Other than SR and Volt Switch, you have several other options. I chose to go with Flash Cannon for STAB and Earth Power in conjunction with Magnet Pull to be able to trap other Probopass and Pawniard, as I was using Probopass as a partner to Chatot, so being able to trap these Pokemon is very useful. Air Balloon seems at first to just be "muh immunity to something i otherwise die to", but it actually lets Probopass beat Piloswine and weakened Golem, as Flash Cannon 2HKOes both of them and this set has enough Speed EVs to outspeed Piloswine (inb4 probo / pilo creep wars).

Anyway, Probopass is a really cool mon that is much more versatile than it seems, and I would definitely recommend using it.

Edit: Megazard used a more defensive set against me, and it did amazingly well, I can definitely see this mon becoming a PU staple
 
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Spin is a thing, thats good, but at the end we dont get Samurott, thats sad.
And we get some Tauros checks (and set up fodders for Poli). Poli is the only thing than stop Pawn from being broken.
Every Volturn core is dead. CBNinjask time.
Also, this tier shift take my team ;_; and i dont have time to play much for now, even when this meta is going to be awesome.
 
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I'm super glad we have another spinner to choose from but it's kind of lame that it fits the same archetype, and has many of the same flaws, that the only other good spinner in the tier, Avalugg, has. They're both very physically bulky spinners. They resist Ice (important in PU-- allows them to check things like Sneasel), they're both dead slow, and they're both weak to rocks. While Avalugg's offensive stat of choice is significantly higher than Koal's, it's forced to rely on the truly fucking terrible Avalanche for STAB, so Torkoal's Lava Plume will be appreciated for its ability to spread burns and generally suck way less. Avalugg's bulkier so they both have their merits depending on the team. But I think the main real niche Torkoal has over Lugg is the Smashkoal set (oh how I've missed you), which can get spins off by forcing enemies out and potentially KOing spinblockers.

Edit: Wait, I think you forgot to add Armaldo to the list of new drops! Armaldo's gonna be really interesting, primarily in more offensive roles.

Probopass just has everything. Fantastic utility, great bulk, great coverage. I'd guess it's gonna be one of the best mons in the tier.
 
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Ares

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Hi my name is Poliwrath and I approve this tier shift

Anyway aside from Poliwrath managing to get even better, this was a really cool tier shift. We got three really cool mons, all of which should be pretty decent. However, my favorite of them at least from the looks of it is Probopass. While defensive sets are certainly viable, I really like offensive pivot sets. This is the set I have been using:


Probopass @ Air Balloon / Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe
Modest Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Earth Power

We haven't had any pivots that work really well on offensive teams since Musharna was banned, but now Probopass fills that role quite nicely. Probopass can switch in on threats like Misdreavus, Mr. Mime, Pawniard, Dodrio, Haunter, Chatot, Ninetales, Armaldo, and Avalugg, and then get up SR and pivot out. Other than SR and Volt Switch, you have several other options. I chose to go with Flash Cannon for STAB and Earth Power in conjunction with Magnet Pull to be able to trap other Probopass and Pawniard, as I was using Probopass as a partner to Chatot, so being able to trap these Pokemon is very useful. Air Balloon seems at first to just be "muh immunity to something i otherwise die to", but it actually lets Probopass beat Piloswine and weakened Golem, as Flash Cannon 2HKOes both of them and this set has enough Speed EVs to outspeed Piloswine (inb4 probo / pilo creep wars).

Anyway, Probopass is a really cool mon that is much more versatile than it seems, and I would definitely recommend using it.

Edit: Megazard used a more defensive set against me, and it did amazingly well, I can definitely see this mon becoming a PU staple
Aside from like Metang and Pawniard, what Steel-type are you going to be trapping? You're better off running Sturdy as well as Leftovers for passive recovery as carrying a Ground-check isn't to hard. Also slapping Toxic on over either Earth Power or Flash Cannon, as well as possibly replacing Power Gem as the go to STAB as it hits things better imo.

Also, just gonna use this post to say that Custap Berry is now available in ORAS. So should be seeing that out on PS soon, as well as a little tick tick boom golem action.
 
Aside from like Metang and Pawniard, what Steel-type are you going to be trapping? You're better off running Sturdy as well as Leftovers for passive recovery as carrying a Ground-check isn't to hard. Also slapping Toxic on over either Earth Power or Flash Cannon, as well as possibly replacing Power Gem as the go to STAB as it hits things better imo.

Also, just gonna use this post to say that Custap Berry is now available in ORAS. So should be seeing that out on PS soon, as well as a little tick tick boom golem action.
Like I said in my post, I'm trapping other Probopass and Pawniard for Chatot, as they're likely to be everywhere in this meta for a while because shiny new toys.

As I also said in my post, Air Balloon lets me beat Piloswine and weakened Golem one on one, which is really nice, but lefties is obviously also an option.
 

WhiteDMist

Path>Goal
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Here are some of my thoughts on these new rises/drops:

I can't say I'm terribly surprised that Bouffalant rose, what with Contrary Serperior being such a force in NU (until it was banned). We might get it back in 3 months, but for now I think we can make do.


This was a pretty big change, as Scyther was the type of Pokemon that most teams were unprepared for. Most teams generally rely on Stealth Rock to control Scyther, which makes its rise while PU receives two new spinners a bit ironic.


This is the drop I am most excited about as well. Finally, we have a good bulky Steel-type, a great pivot, and a slow Volt Switch all in one. Probopass provides so much support with Stealth Rock, Toxic, Thunder Wave, and Volt Switch; set up sweepers particularly like Probopass. It's not passive like Bastiodon, and you can afford to invest in its Special Attack just because it is so bulky overall. It checks stuff like Chatot, Misdreavus, Ninetales, Rotom-F, Haunter, and Kadabra, and that's just the A- and higher ranks. I predict Probopass will be a staple glue Pokemon for many teams now. It has problems with it's typing being a hit or miss, as it can wall so many things but it dies just as easily to common Ground and Fighting moves; Marowak is particularly threatening just because Probopass can do nothing to it while Bonemerang ruins Probopass. That'll probably keep it from being a A+ rank Pokemon, but who know?


I'm pretty iffy about the effectiveness of Pawniard. Sticky Web and Defog are not that popular in PU, and we don't have Garbodor to provide easy hazard stacking. It's nice to have another offensive Dark-type, just as it's great to have another decent Steel-type. That alone may provide a good reason to use Pawniard, and diminish Purugly's role significantly. I'll wait and see on this one.


While it works as a spinner, I feel like it's a waste of Armaldo's amazing offensive power. Both its STABs are excellent in PU and uncommon enough that it'll change the way PU players teambuild. It's also a great offensive check to many powerful attackers, especially Tauros, Kecleon, and Sneasel. These 3 Pokemon are possible suspects as well, so it would be nice to see how they fare with Armaldo now.


I regretted not getting a chance to play with Torkoal during the alpha stage of PU. It's a spinner that can get past all the PU Ghost-types on its own. I personally cannot wait to test out its Shell Smash Spin set, which breaks even Dusknoir and Dusclops (+2 threatens to OHKO the former after Rocks with Fire Blast unless Dusknoir is specially bulky, and the latter can't do much back). Checking similar Pokemon to Armaldo, they vie with each other for the position of spinner, which is a nice change. The biggest effect is that I predict most slower Pokemon may start EV-ing to outspeed Modest SMASHkoal.


What do you guys feel is the biggest change, or will make the largest impact in PU? What new threats my rise, and what old threats may fall from grace? Is anything looking to be suspect worthy?
 

Anty

let's drop
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Ok, ill be that guy and talk about what should be suspected:

Tauros is amazing in this meta, too amazing. It has high speed which is only naturally outsped by one good mon (purugly/swoobat/zeb are 'niche'), and speed ties with two others. It also has ridiculous power, so has only a few good switch ins, def costa, def missy, solrock, as a decent amount of the tier that should check it have no recovery (piloswine for example). Look at those mons and you see three defensive pokemon, which have little presence on offensive teams, which is the main and best playstyle. I dont think im stressing its power enough, it litterally 2hkos the meta with rocks, sub 3 mons (please dont nitpick and be like 'dusclops is a great counter', because it isnt very good), and can even ohko some decent mons with its stab (mr mime, for example).


Tauros at least has 3 counters, this thing has 0. STAB Knock Off and drain punch not only have amazing side effects, which also can screw over any thing trying to take a hit/opp trying to wear kecleon down, but they also have absurb coverage, add very strong priority in STAB sucker punch, and this thing becomes even more disease-like. Its 4th moveslot is also scary, you dont know whether it can be shadow sneak, bypassing 50/50s, stealth rock, free damage, or a random coverage move like fire blast or thunderpunch boping your 'check'.

Other people probably will write more, i was just trying to spark a discussion. Another possibly broken mon which felt deserved to be suspected (b4 drops) was sneasel. Yes it has throh and wrath as counters, but it is stupid that you pretty much have to run one of those on a team, but now pawniard is here, firstly more people will be prepared for them as they have similar checks, and it now has comeptition for a team slot, somewhat.
 
Wholeheartedly agree with suspecting both of those, and I would also like to see Chatter / Chatot looked at.

Anyway, the addition of two new Steel-types has really changed the viability of quite a lot of Pokemon, or at the very least force them to use moves that were once considered sub-optimal. Here are some examples of Pokemon that enjoyed this tier shift and some that certainly didn't:

Pokemon that improved:



Poliwrath somehow manages to get better with each tier shift. Poliwrath is pretty much a hard stop to Pawniard and Armaldo, and it beats Torkoal and Probopass one on one quite easily. Additionally, its Rain Dance set no longer has to worry about being revenge killed by Scarf Scyther, and all sets lost a decent check in Eviolite Scyther. It's not like Poliwrath needed to get better, but it certainly did.



While it is hard walled by Probopass, Ninjask no longer has to worry about being completely outclassed by Scyther. While it has nowhere near the versatility Scyther had, and it is certainly worse overall, Choice Band Ninjask is actually a viable, albeit niche choice in the current metagame. It also really appriciates the addition of two offensive Rapid Spinners to the tier.



This isn't related to the tier shift, but now that Custap Berry is legal, PU finally has a decent hazard lead that gets both Stealth Rock and Spikes. Thanks to Sturdy and Custap Berry, Dwebble can usually get Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes up. While Taunt Misdreavus, Rock Blast Golem, and Taunt Barbaracle and Monferno keep it from being anything too amazing, Dwebble is definitely a legitimate option now.


Pokemon that got worse:



Haunter is easily the biggest loser of this tier shift. Its Scarf set, once a great cleaner against offensive teams, is now hard walled by both Probopass and Pawniard, and the Sub Disable set is in a similar situation. Additionally, Haunter was once a decent spinblocker as the only relevant spinner couldn't OHKO it on the switch, but now it can't reliably switch into 2/3 of PU's spinners. However, Haunter is still good, though Life Orb will likely become the most common set as it can afford to run Hidden Power Fighting. Sub Wisp will also be a great lure to Pawniard expecting to face Sub Disable.



Not only does Purugly now face competition from Pawniard as a Defiant user, but it is hardwalled by Probopass and doesn't like facing Pawniard either. Purugly wasn't that great in the metagame just before the tier shift, and is certainly quite a bit worse now. It does have Wake-Up-Slap though if you can somehow find room for it.



Bastiodon was really mediocre and rarely seen in high level play already, but Probopass dropping removed just about every reason to use it. Not only is it completely outclassed by Probopass, but all of the reasons that Bastiodon struggled to perform well before are not issues to Probopass. While Bastiodon was a complete momentum killer that wouldn't know what an offensive presence was if one slapped it in the face, Probopass can even be used on offensive teams thanks to its usable Special Attack, wide variety of coverage options, and most importantly Volt Switch. As if this weren't enough, the metagame adapting to Probopass will make it fare even better against Bastiodon.


So, what else do you guys think got better or worse from this tier shift? I'm sure I missed some, so if you guys have any notable examples, please feel free to post about them.
 

ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
So I'm really loving Torkoal so far

I thought its lack of reliable recovery would be worse than it is. It is so ridiculously bulky that leftovers already does a lot for it, and with wish support it can be great help in stall teams. Its utility in stealth rock and rapid spin is fantastic, and it can spread burns with ease even without will-o-wisp. It is also the closest thing to a 100% fire type check you will get because it gets Earth power and earthquake. Also has fantastic synergy with gourgeist/tangela and avalugg and poliwrath.

About Haunter, I think many will use HP fighting to lure out Probo and Pawn, so I don't think it will decline too much. And destiny bond/will-o-wisp can play mindgames with Pawniard.
 
So I'm really loving Torkoal so far

I thought its lack of reliable recovery would be worse than it is. It is so ridiculously bulky that leftovers already does a lot for it, and with wish support it can be great help in stall teams. Its utility in stealth rock and rapid spin is fantastic, and it can spread burns with ease even without will-o-wisp. It is also the closest thing to a 100% fire type check you will get because it gets Earth power and earthquake. Also has fantastic synergy with gourgeist/tangela and avalugg and poliwrath.

About Haunter, I think many will use HP fighting to lure out Probo and Pawn, so I don't think it will decline too much. And destiny bond/will-o-wisp can play mindgames with Pawniard.
My point about Haunter was that its usual sets (scarf and subdisable) are going to be much less effective because they can't fit hp fighting. Life Orb Haunter will still be about as good, but the sets it was known for will see a sharp decline in viability.

About Torkoal, I don't think defensive will really be that amazing. Sure, it's really bulky, but it can't get past spinblockers at all, and since you obviously wouldn't run another hazard remover with it, it really gets worn down quicky by repeated switch-ins to SR, especially since it lacks both the reliable recovery that makes defensive Pokemon like Pelipper really good or the sheer bulk of things like Probopass that let them come in multiple times per match. Its main uses are as a fanstastic Fire check and a decent Sneasel check, but I don't really like the idea of defensive Torkoal except on very specific teams.

SMASHKOAL on the other hand is a pretty decent spinner. It isn't terribly reliable at removing hazards, so I wouldn't recommend using it with Pokemon that need hazard removal to function, but it's a decent option for teams that want a hazard remover that can check Ninetales and get a spin off in most circumstances. It's pretty powerful too, as it 2HKOes any variant of Misdreavus and OHKOes most NP Misdreavus after a decent amount of prior damage.

So yeah, Torkoal is pretty niche in general, but it seems like it will be a pretty cool option on certain teams.

edit: might wanna mention that smashkoal can't afford to run modest, without timid it's slower than timid misdreavus at +2
 
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scorpdestroyer

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I don't think anybody runs max Spe Timid Misdreavus though, I'm quite sure NP Missy runs Modest usually. Even so I doubt Shadow Ball does enough to prevent Torkoal from getting the spin off, so I would still use Modest.

I don't know if Armaldo will be that good as a standalone sweeper. In fact I actually think the opposite, that Armaldo is best used as a spinner. +2 Knock Off OHKOs Misdreavus even with a Lum Berry so it sounds pretty good at beating its spinblockers. The problem is that Armaldo has a terrible case of 4MSS and that it will always be walled by Poliwrath. It wants to run Stone Edge and Aqua Jet and maybe even X-Scissor in that last slot :( I guess a set without Spinning might be ok but it's still hard walled by Fighting-types which are everywhere.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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I actually run max speed timid on my stall team, the other mons cover the major threats so Misdreavus is more critical to ooutspeed and check (read: taunt/burn) boosting sweepers.

With Armaldo I'd rather run Aqua Tail over Aqua Jet, you aren't going to kill many things with that priority and I'd rather get the strong hit on Golem/Probopass/etc
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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So the drop I'm most excited about is this little monster, ever since it was discover in XY Pawniard has been giving me trouble. Its actually ridiculously difficult to tank a hit with most of the mons in PU, like surprisingly so. I used to write it off because of its low base attack, but the combination of incredible STABs and Swords Dance is enough to give Pawniard the ability to pack quite a punch. Low Kick isn't really needed because of the fact that Mega Lix isn't in PU, so Iron Head is the go to coverage move. It is able to set up quite a bit with the added bulk from Eviolite as well as being able to have utility early game with Knock Off and Sucker Punch revenges. Sucker Punch makes up for Pawniard's mediocre speed and lets it beat a lot of mons that would otherwise revenge it.

Unfortunately, Pawniard is hardwalled by Poliwrath, but you have 5 other teams to accommodate that threat.


Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance

I'm to lazy to put in calcs, and I really doubt to many ppl actually look at them, so just take my word for it that it destroys everything that isn't Poliwrath.
 

scorpdestroyer

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Montsegur said:
Unfortunately, Pawniard is hardwalled by Poliwrath, but you have 5 other teams to accommodate that threat.
Mhm better bring 30 teammates so I can beat 1 mon

+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 262-310 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Psycho Cut vs. 192 HP / 32 Def Throh: 278-o328 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Dark spam hype

Sadly Pawniard has to forgo Iron Head which is pretty poor 4MSS but it can at least get past Poliwrath and Throh, 2 of its biggest "counters", with some prior danage, in exchange for not beating the likes of Golem, Togetic, and Piloswine. Honestly I'd still run Iron Head most of the time but Psycho Cut sounds like a pretty good option too to run with SD. Sadly I'd love to run Low Kick too to hit Probopass and opposing Pawniard but what can you do :(

inb4 vacuum wave poliwrath

Here are some calcs because Mont is a lazy twat
+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 225-265 (77.3 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 187-222 (57.8 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 273-322 (95.1 - 112.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 189-223 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Anyway, we should expect to see a lot more HP Fighting than before especially on Pokemon like NP Misdreavus and Haunter, as well as Kadabra, to hit Probopass and Pawniard.
 
Ok Posting about Kecleon because i feel like it is retarded in this metagame honestly. Kecleon's ability to equally threaten offensive and defensive Pokemon thanks to its movepool and Protean is what makes it broken in the current metagame in my opinion. It has a ridicolous strong Sucker Punch that pretty much tears anything not resistent to it apart and without going specific with calcs it OHKOs Raichu with no prior damage or does so with some even against the bulkier ones such as Tauros. Defensively once Stealth Rock is up and assuming it is carrying Thunder Punch Knock Off Drain Punch and Sucker Punch it has pretty much no answers with very little switch ins considering it removes Eviolites when they come in on Knock Off and has pretty much perfect and functional coverage. The only argument i can see against a ban is that it is slow and even outsped by a lot of walls (such as Misdreavus) but most of the time they either rely on a Burn to stop it or remain crippled by Knock Off.

Ah and Tauros is also most likely broken but lol it is clear as the sky no reason to post

Stay chill
 
I feel Leaf Guard Meganium is going to destroy the tier tbh
fuck kec
we have sun's biggest threat coming in feb 27th
 
Opinions about Tier Shift:
I'll start saying that Poliwrath, as everyone already said basically, is now one of the most efficient Pokémons in PU(as if it wasn't before lmao), since it can counter and check a large portion of the threats, including drops from NU.
I really liked this tier shift actually, initially I thought that Pawniard would have been not so healty in the tier but now that I familiarized with it I think it fits pretty well(lol dark spam intensifies) as a pretty strong Defiant User in PU, good addiction to spikestacking teams that wanted an alternative to Purugly. I'm really excited about Torkoal moving down there, the SMASH Spin set is really good and fun, since it can outspeed most of the Spinners in the tier and kill them, then spin, feels like an alright drop. Ok now, Probopass, I don't think this thing is broken, but does it work? hell yes, it gives the team a slow volt switch to setup on boosting moves and a reliable bulky Steel Type that has access to Toxic Thunder Wave Stealth Rock and decent STABs. His downside is that he's so weak to fighting pokèmons like already mentioned Poliwrath and to guys like Marowak, but it is alright.
Ok so, I'm not like super excited about Armaldo since I think there are already some SRock Leads now, to mention some: Golem,Barbaracle, Torkoal now which can spin too, but it's an alright addiction, surprised I didn't see him a lot(at least not much as Pawniard) since it can check le overpowered mons(kekleon,tauros and sneasel) pretty well.
I'll talk a bit about the mons that leave now: Scyther, i'm really destroyed by his rise in NU, since it was so comfortable to play and build around him, it was a staple of most of PU teams, expecially the Choice Band set that can deal massive damage with his STABs and gains you momentum with U-Turn. The mantis also appreciates the Swords Dance and Scarf set tho which are viable imo, but yeah most of the teams were counting too much on rocks to stop it so yeah I'm even on that.
I'm not really affected by Bouffalant rise tbh, sad to see Normal Spam went down a bit but however, there's still another bull that does his job godly actually, yes Tauros lol.
 

MZ

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Normal spam hasn't really died, I've been finding that scrappy CB Stoutland+LO Tauros is an excellent core right now. I've been using them in conjunction with magnemite's magnet pull probopass set and it's a stupidly powerful combo, not only due to the brokenness of Tauros but also because even the new normal resistant mons aren't a huge issue (max hp Armaldo can barely switch into stoutland's frustration with sr up, pawniard is an easy 3hko with frustration, and probopass and pawn are both destroyed by superpower or EQ and can be trapped by probo).
 
I'm going to talk about Armaldo now, since no one else has yet. Armaldo is a pretty decent Pokemon in PU, but it also has quite a few annoying flaws. It's a really solid option for hazard removal on offense, and when I've used it I've found an opportunity to spin in pretty much every game that I needed to. Unlike Avalugg and Torkoal, it's actually decent at getting past most spinblockers, and it also has usable Speed, letting it spin on a decent number of common threats (even if it means losing Armaldo in the process). SD sets seem okay on paper, but they still really suffer from Armaldo's biggest flaw in my opinion: 4MSS. No matter what Armaldo runs, it's a free switch to something really threatening, which I'll explain in more detail in a bit. This is what I think is probably the best set:


Armaldo @ Leftovers
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge / X Scissor
- Toxic / Earthquake

Like I said, Armaldo tends to give free switches to a lot of mons. Here's a list, depending on what moves it lacks (again, note that 4MSS prevents it from running most of these moves)
  • Poliwrath
  • Throh
  • Defensive Carracosta
  • Golem (Unless it runs Earthquake or Aqua Tail)
  • Pawniard (Earthquake / X Scissor)
  • Probopass (Earthquake / Aqua Tail)
  • Misdreavus and Gourgeist-XL (Knock Off)
  • Togetic (Stone Edge)
  • Avalugg (Stone Edge)
There's an obvious issue here: Earthquake is the best coverage move as it hits the most common threats that wall you, but to even use it you have to give up Knock Off, which is what lets you even spin in the first place, Toxic, which you need if you don't want to be a free switch to the most dominant threat in the meta, or a STAB move, which lol not running STAB, Armaldo is pretty good at its job, but it's not really that good at doing much more than that.
 

scorpdestroyer

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Some fun stuff:


Pelipper @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 160 HP / 252 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Hurricane
- Roost
- Defog

Offensive tank Pelipper is actually pretty fun. Pelipper itself is one of the best switch-ins to Fighting-types in the tier. Unfortunately most Fighting-type counters in PU are piss weak and don't actually fit on offense, but this one does and provides Defog too. Pelipper actually also hits decently hard especially as its STABs are very powerful (but tbf they always miss) and are literally unresisted among everything viable in PU.


Misdreavus @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Nasty Plot
- Will-O-Wisp

I've thought for ages that NP + Wisp Missy has been the best Missy. It allows Missy to continue to cripple physical attackers if it doesn't have the time to set up. I don't have much else to say because this is your standard NP Missy but Wisp + NP needs a lot more love than Taunt + NP imo


Grumpig @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 124 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
- Substitute / Thunder Wave / Heal Bell
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fighting] / Signal Beam

Grumpig is also very fun. If you've noticed a theme I like solid switch-ins to stuff that aren't completely passive; Grumpig is a pretty good counter to Ninetales as it takes max 40% from +2 Tales Energy Ball. It also checks Psychic-types quite well by walling Scarf Mime and checking Kadabra (Signal Beam does about 40% max), as well as Regice. The nice thing is that CM Grumpig is not as passive as your standard wall Grumpig. You can actually run a bulkier spread if you want with either defense > SpA EVs. Speed is to outrun max neutral base 65s like Heatmor and Flareon if they still exist, although it's a good benchmark that a lot of mons aim for (Defensive Missy for example)
 
Alright. Im going to talk about it.



Even in the hands of an in-experienced battler I feel like this thing is stupidly broken. It can rip through your team easily if you aren't prepared to deal with it at a moments notice. The amount of sets this thing can run even being able to support with rocks / thunder wave(?) is stupid. It would be different if it was frail but the sad fact is its not. At least on the special side. If you take your "eyes" of it for a moment it has the option to sweep your team easily depending on the set. Not to mention it can force you to sack pokemon after pokemon every time it comes in an force awkward switches.

At this point im nominating Kecleon for a suspect test.
 

MZ

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Agreeing with kecleon suspect 100%, but I also think we ought to suspect Tauros too. It outspeeds the majority if the metagame and has very few counters that can't be worn down with the life orb set, and has a few other options (sub, sub+endeavor, scarf). It lacks the straight versatility of kecleon, but makes up for it by outspeeding most of the unboosted metagame with its insane power. Not as suspect worthy as kek due to lack of priority and merely meh defenses, but at least worth discussion.
 
tauros and kecleon should both be suspected because they have the power and coverage to kill everything and are very limiting for the tier
 

WhiteDMist

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Tauros and Kecleon are being suspected!!



This suspect test will last 10 days. During this suspect test, we will be looking at those who contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way. This includes any of: PU sub-forum, PU Room, and #pu. The more you contribute, the more likely you are to get noticed, and this applies to those on EITHER SIDE of the suspect. Don't forget to test these suspects, and ladder often in these next few days! Anyone that is asked to join the Rotating Council this round will need to provide a screenshot of one of their alts (with a date and time) with a GXE score of at least 75 and Glicko-1 of 1750 ± 80 or better: so be prepared! HBD2ME!
 
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