Metagame np: Stage 1: New Rules (Vivillon quickban post #173)

So recently I've been trying ampharos and I've gotta say it's sorta slept on and underrated

I've been using this AV set to great success
Ampharos @ Assault Vest
Ability: Static
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 248 HP / 248 SpA / 12 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Discharge
- Focus Blast
- Dragon Pulse

With this set it can tank special hits really well and more specifically it can tank the hits from the all powerful quiver dancers in the tier e.g vivillion and oricorio pau, it can also take hits well from rotom frost decently well which isn't very common in the tier for a single typed mon to deal with the qd AND voltbeam pretty well.

It's also slow mon with volt switch, this is great because the tier is being dominated by QD also there's non quiver dance options like swords dance dugtrio, sawsbuck and nasty plot houndoom, rotom DD fraxure etc it can enable these mons with its slow pivots.
 
So recently I've been trying ampharos and I've gotta say it's sorta slept on and underrated

I've been using this AV set to great success
Ampharos @ Assault Vest
Ability: Static
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 248 HP / 248 SpA / 12 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Discharge
- Focus Blast
- Dragon Pulse

With this set it can tank special hits really well and more specifically it can tank the hits from the all powerful quiver dancers in the tier e.g vivillion and oricorio pau, it can also take hits well from rotom frost decently well which isn't very common in the tier for a single typed mon to deal with the qd AND voltbeam pretty well.

It's also slow mon with volt switch, this is great because the tier is being dominated by QD also there's non quiver dance options like swords dance dugtrio, sawsbuck and nasty plot houndoom, rotom DD fraxure etc it can enable these mons with its slow pivots.
I'm wondering if Dragon Tail has a use on this. Phazing is rather uncommonly distributed and Amphy in general comes off like a diet Eelektross and so I think it could also pull Dragon Tail over Dragon Pulse. Only thing is having to rely on Focus Blast to hit Electric resists if you do that.
 

Fragmented

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:haunter::houndoom::gogoat:
All three have seen an increase in uses. Haunter and Houndoom are strong special attackers with limited switch-ins that can run several sets viably. Having a speed tier higher than Oricorio-Pa'u and Squawkabilly make Scarf sets viable revenge killers, while Nasty Plot turn them into threatening sweepers. Specs sets are hard to switch into, and are further boosted by same type Tera.
Gogoat is interesting as it wasn't that great in past iterations of PU. However, Tera has allowed it to shed the weaknesses of the Grass type for a sturdier option, like Rock or Water. 123/100 special bulk is really good and can tank many strong hits, most notably a +1 Hurricane from Oricorio-Pa'u, and that is before Terstallising. Bulk Up is its best set thus far, though it does struggle with 4MSS with wanting to run Rock Slide for the QDers, Earthquake for the likes of Perrserker and Magneton, and Milk Drink for reliable recovery.

:dugtrio::wugtrio:
Our three headed buddies have made fewer appearances this round. It does not help that Gogoat has proven to be a prominent mon in this iteration of PU, while Quaxwell remains as the most used form of hazard control that can handle them well. They still have a great speed tier that threatens many of the offensive threats in PU, but rely on boosting items like Choice Band and Life Orb for damage output, with the former potentially generating free turns for your opponent while the latter hampers longevity in a metagame that is lacking in good hazard control.

:tinkatuff:
Tink is a surprise to see, having 20 uses this round in comparison to 9 uses in round 1. Eviolite and Steel typing allows it to be a switch-in to the ever-pervasive Oricorio-Pa'u as well as other QDers, threatening to cripple them with Thunder Wave or Encore them into an unfavourable position. It is also one of few Knock Off users to further annoy your opponent. Finally, Mold Breaker guarantees Stealth Rocks against Hattrem. However, Tinkatuff lacks any offensive presence and is pretty passive, inviting bulky threats that do not mind being paralyzed.

:camerupt::gabite:
These two are probably the only viable Ground types currently (unless someone can use Toedscool successfully). Camerupt, in addition to tanking a few special hits from Magneton and Rotom-Frost, can also cripple physical attackers with burns or stop sweeps early with Yawn. Gabite is a great option too. It sacrifices the passive recovery of Leftovers for the bulk that Eviolite provides. It has a better speed tier, which allows you to outspeed 0 Speed SpDef Skuntank with a bit of investment, while also being able to sponge a hit or two from Houndoom and Pyroar, threatening them out with an Earthquake. Dragon Claw is an option to hit Ground-immune mons, while Dragon Tail deters set up attempts and can rack up hazard damage through phazing. Rest can be used in the last slot if you're really desperate for recovery and don't mind giving free turns, while SD makes Gabite a greater offensive threat.

:misdreavus:
I think someone else already mentioned it somewhere, but Misdreavus is one of the better spinblockers around. Decent bulk with Eviolite, Will-o-Wisp to cripple opponents, Hex for strong damage, Taunt to deny recovery, or even Calm Mind for boosting, this mon is Quaxwell's worse nightmare. Pair it with Skuntank or another TSpikes user to rack up poison and Hex damage.
I'll acknowledge that Drakloak has slightly better physical bulk than Misdreavus (68/50/50 vs 50/50/85) and can do almost the same thing, but Misdreavus has Levitate and is thus less susceptible to hazard chip than Drakloak, while also having better bulk (68/50/50 vs 60/60/85, thanks for the correction).
 
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:haunter::houndoom::gogoat:
All three have seen an increase in uses. Haunter and Houndoom are strong special attackers with limited switch-ins that can run several sets viably. Having a speed tier higher than Oricorio-Pa'u and Squawkabilly make Scarf sets viable revenge killers, while Nasty Plot turn them into threatening sweepers. Specs sets are hard to switch into, and are further boosted by same type Tera.
Gogoat is interesting as it wasn't that great in past iterations of PU. However, Tera has allowed it to shed the weaknesses of the Grass type for a sturdier option, like Rock or Water. 123/100 special bulk is really good and can tank many strong hits, most notably a +1 Hurricane from Oricorio-Pa'u, and that is before Terstallising. Bulk Up is its best set thus far, though it does struggle with 4MSS with wanting to run Rock Slide for the QDers, Earthquake for the likes of Perrserker and Magneton, and Milk Drink for reliable recovery.

:dugtrio::wugtrio:
Our three headed buddies have made fewer appearances this round. It does not help that Gogoat has proven to be a prominent mon in this iteration of PU, while Quaxwell remains as the most used form of hazard control that can handle them well. They still have a great speed tier that threatens many of the offensive threats in PU, but rely on boosting items like Choice Band and Life Orb for damage output, with the former potentially generating free turns for your opponent while the latter hampers longevity in a metagame that is lacking in good hazard control.

:tinkatuff:
Tink is a surprise to see, having 21 uses this round in comparison to 9 uses in round 1. Eviolite and Steel typing allows it to be a switch-in to the ever-pervasive Oricorio-Pa'u as well as other QDers, threatening to cripple them with Thunder Wave or Encore them into an unfavourable position. It is also one of few Knock Off users to further annoy your opponent. Finally, Mold Breaker guarantees Stealth Rocks against Hattrem. However, Tinkatuff lacks any offensive presence and is pretty passive, inviting bulky threats that do not mind being paralyzed.

:camerupt::gabite:
These two are probably the only viable Ground types currently (unless someone can use Toedscool successfully). Camerupt, in addition to tanking a few special hits from Magneton and Rotom-Frost, can also cripple physical attackers with burns or stop sweeps early with Yawn. Gabite is a great option too. It sacrifices the passive recovery of Leftovers for the bulk that Eviolite provides. It has a better speed tier, which allows you to outspeed 0 Speed SpDef Skuntank with a bit of investment, while also being able to sponge a hit or two from Houndoom and Pyroar, threatening them out with an Earthquake. Dragon Claw is an option to hit Ground-immune mons, while Dragon Tail deters set up attempts and can rack up hazard damage through phazing. Rest can be used in the last slot if you're really desperate for recovery and don't mind giving free turns, while SD makes Gabite a greater offensive threat.

:misdreavus:
I think someone else already mentioned it somewhere, but Misdreavus is one of the better spinblockers around. Decent bulk with Eviolite, Will-o-Wisp to cripple opponents, Hex for strong damage, Taunt to deny recovery, or even Calm Mind for boosting, this mon is Quaxwell's worse nightmare. Pair it with Skuntank or another TSpikes user to rack up poison and Hex damage.
I'll acknowledge that Drakloak has slightly better physical bulk than Misdreavus (68/50/50 vs 50/50/85) and can do almost the same thing, but Misdreavus has Levitate and is thus less susceptible to hazard chip than Drakloak.
Actually misdreavus is far bulkier. it has 60 60 85 bulk.
 
mons 2 share pt2

:Flapple:
Flapple @ Choice Specs
Ability: Gluttony
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- U-turn / Giga Drain / Leaf Storm / Sucker Punch
- U-turn / Giga Drain / Leaf Storm / Sucker Punch

Due to the lack of fairy types, dragon is a more potent attack type. Flapple believe it or not possess the strongest Draco Meteor in the tier with 95 Special Attack (followed by :Sliggoo: with 83). Unlike say :Houndoom:/:Pyroar: it doesn't worry about switchins resisting its hits and it faces the additional plus of making opponents think its Physical. Lemme tell ya it feels pretty good not to be locked into Outrage. Anyway, for comparison Draco from Flapple hits harder then anything from Houndoom/Pyroar besides Pyroar's Fire Blast. It can also switch into :Quaxwell: and some electric types unlike those two because none of them Tera Ice (don't quote me on this). With Tera Dragon you further boost dragon move's power, and have a chance to OHKO AV :Crabominable with Tera Draco. Again it doesn't really need coverage, it's more of a do I want to obliterate the opponent or do I want to not go -2. The last moves are preference as they all are situationally useful as again, 90% of the time you'll be using a Dragon move. Even with -att nature Sucker can finish off low health mons so I don't advise changing that, however neutral nature 0 attack sucker punch can OHKO :haunter:. Flapple does has enough bulk that it can switch into some things so mess with lowering its defences at your own risk. Just make sure to show a lil restraint if you see :Tinkatuff:. Maybe this could scarf?

:Crabominable:
Crabominable @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Atk / 72 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Ice Punch
Sub Bulk Up Crab. Of mention is Tera Ghost, by far the best Tera for the set, which gives you numerous opportunities to start setting up safely against random normal/guts facade/fighting moves. You want a bit of speed for to outpace other Crabs and :Perrserker: that don't invest in speed.

:Drakloak:
Drakloak @ Eviolite
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Rest
- Sleep Talk / Will-O-Wisp / Night Shade
- Sleep Talk / Will-O-Wisp / Night Shade
Abuses that :Quaxwell: is the only spinner. Come in with numerous good resistances. Start pushing mons around to rack up damage with Dragon Tail. Investing in defences instead of speed is also viable. Pair with Spikes. No clue on the Tera, since likely you'll want to stay as a Ghost to deny spin.
 
This Crabo set is being really fun. With amnesia you live a lot of hits you shouldnt, with some examples being getting 3HKO'd by Houndoom's fire blast, 2HKO'd by Specs Magneton Flash Cannon, etc. You can use either tera water or fairy, with both giving key resistances, my fav being Water because of the steel and fire resist. Its really easier to set up than it looks


Crabominable @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Ice Punch
- Drain Punch
- Bulk Up
- Amnesia
 
:bw/slaking: :bw/slaking: :bw/slaking: :bw/slaking: :bw/slaking: :bw/slaking: :bw/slaking: :bw/slaking: :bw/slaking: :bw/slaking: :bw/slaking: :bw/slaking:

hi! i'm here to make a post about everyone's favorite topic, slaking. this pokemon has been getting a lot more hype than it usually does whenever a new gen of pu comes out (which is saying a lot), to the point where most of the lists over in the personal vr thread have it somewhere in the b ranks, which is just silly. because of all of this, i feel like it's worth making a post about it.

so everyone knows that the main argument against slaking is always the fact that using it gives your opponents free turns to just use setup moves and win the game, and people usually counter with arguments like it being able to still outspeed +1 things with scarf, being able to live hits from mons that are already set up because it has great bulk, it learns encore, etc. some of those arguments are more valid than others, but i'm here to say that even if you completely disregard the massive downside of being set up on, slaking is still not worth using. the fact that it can only attack every other turn is not just relevant for giving the opponent free turns, but also that your massive attack stat only gets used every other turn, meaning that other wallbreakers will usually outdamage it over the span of two turns. in fact, its biggest competition as a fast physical normal type wallbreaker, squawkabilly, actually outdamages it over a single turn, not even just two, regardless of if it's scarf or band!

252 Atk Guts Squawkabilly Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 279-328 (81.8 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Slaking Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 243-286 (71.2 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Slaking Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 162-192 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Hustle Squawkabilly Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 238-282 (69.7 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

yeah slaking can hit steels and squawkabilly can't, but the direct comparison is not the point. the point is, you can't just look at slaking's stats and assume it is going to be so much stronger than other wallbreaking options that its ridiculous downside can be made up for. every aspect of slaking is made substantially worse by the fact that it has truant. it has great bulk, but that's mitigated by the fact that after attacking it will either get attacked twice or force another member of its team to be attacked for free. it has a great attacking movepool, but the fact that it's always using choice items means that there will rarely not be something that can switch in after it's knocked something out and completely force a switch. the negative effects of truant are often not completely obvious, making slaking seem better than it is if you aren't paying enough attention. a free turn does not need to be used to have a setup sweeper win the game on the spot to be a massive downside. it can be used to get momentum for free, set hazards up, remove hazards, use a recovery move, or just about anything else you want because it's literally a completely free turn. none of this is even mentioning the fact that anything with protect or sub can render slaking completely unable to do anything at all. these massive downsides might be worth it if slaking was some sort of completely unstoppable god of terror with no possible answers on the turns it gets to attack, but it just isn't, and as long as that's the case, it will never be viable.

and don't even bring up giga impact please, you can't switch after using it so it gives any team with a steel or ghost type (which is most of them) two entire free turns to do what they want with, not just one. unviable move on an already unviable mon, do not use giga impact and do not use slaking.
 
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EonX

Battle Soul
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Surprise! Figured I'd drop thoughts on some Pokemon I've seen and used lately.

: Easily the top spinblocker in the tier. It makes the duck regret its very existence and essentially let's you play pretty aggressively since you'll be able to deny Quax spin for a long time. Great auxillary options in Taunt, Sub, and Wisp ensure's that all manner of defensive threats can't feel totally good about trying to handle it. Levitate is absolutely massive for it as none of the Spikes being thrown around are going to erode its bulk. Super fun mon and any Spiker loves this thing.

: Why do I feel like people are sleeping on this? Maybe they aren't and it's just because Doom is that good, but I've been absolutely loving Pyroar's Speed tier and Ghost immunity. It's basically Quaxwell's best friend because the above Misdreavus can do next to nothing with it as Taunt blocks the setup path. Tera Blast acting as Normal STAB pre-Tera gives it so much more flexibility than most other attackers with limited coverage... tho Normal + Fire coverage is pretty fine in its own right.

: The best Stealth Rocker in the tier? Maybe. It sure can chip Quax better than most other Rockers thanks to DTail + Rough Skin. Perhaps the biggest boons for it are its Ground typing and ability to SD up against slower teams. Ground typing in a meta where Electrics are pretty solid is natural defensive utility to block Volt Switch shenanigans and a Dragon that actually handles Steels is pretty good.

: This thing is just silly. No Guard Stone Edge go brrrr. Considering it has Close Combat to maul Perrserker and rip into Tinkatuff, there isn't a lot that wants to come in on this. Band can run Adamant pretty safely as there's not much in the way of base 80s and neutral max Speed still gets the jump on positive base 70s by a single point. About the only thing stopping Scarf from claiming 2HKOs on switches is Quaxwell, but forcing a Roost on that is generally good enough. And if it's Tera Dragon, you can casually clap it with a Play Rough and laugh. Oh, and Scarf can even fit Rocks if you need it to, because what else are you using aside from Edge, CC, and Play Rough? Super fun mon.

: Is this our savior against Sleep? Maybe if you can avoid Hurricane pre-Tera. This thing is so much fun. It's your quentissential slow booster that acts as a wall before trying to sweep. Milk Drink only being 8 PP means you do have to be a bit wary about trying to handle too many things early on as you generally need a couple of boosts before Horn Leech becomes semi-reliable for recovery, but it's such a strong overall mon. Probably a top 10 mon.

: Finally, the QD mons. I've mentioned it a couple times in the PS room, but I really don't see how QD mons survive long term because of how good Tera is on them. For the fliers, Ground + Flying is such good coverage and is only comfortably handled by Rotom-Frost, which isn't exactly known for its bulk. In the case of Viv, it can just sleep it and still win. In the case of Lilligant, Grass + Rock is about as good coverage as it can just save sleep for the Steel and then proceed to rip through. Lilligant has more restrictive coverage, but a Stealth Rock neutrality to allow it to run a different item, such as Lum Berry, Leftovers, etc. to aid in setup or sweeping.
 
Toedscool has to be considered more.

:sv/Toedscool:

Toedscool @ Eviolite
Ability: Mycelium Might
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- Leech Seed
- Spore


The reason is simple: the evolution of this meta is leading to "anti-Quaxwell :quaxwell:" teams, especially with the evil combinaton of "wide pletora of hazards"+Misdreavus :misdreavus:, which the duckling can do basically nothing against.
The flaws of Toedscool are still there (disappointing stats, mediocre typing, double-edge sword ability...), but its amazing pool of utility moves is growing on me and I think that it can hinder those anti-duck teams.
Of course Rapid Spin, Spore and Knock Off are mandatory: Knock Off in particular is really good against the Misdreavus that wants to spinblock you (so the ghost loses lots of bulk without the eviolite) and Spore puts always a lot of pressure.

The mistake I made when I saw this mon regarded the 4th move: I thought that having "unbounceable" Spikes was the right choice.
But if you want more longevity the best move is actually Leech Seed: considering Toed's low HPs, Leech Seed drains a significant amount of health, helping you to survive longer and to be annoying with your Knock Off/Spore spam. After sporing something, by spamming leech seed you keep on weakening your opponent's team and the drained HPs can mitigate the effect of their hazards (for your other teammates), if you weren't able to spin them.

I like using a mixed defensive set that should integrate an already existing defensive core, maybe to cover some of its holes and to switch into specific stuff (for example, electric types like Raichu and Magneton) .
 
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:ss/dartrix:
We have a new Pokemon to play with as of today! Dartrix will be legal later today!
View attachment 500397
View attachment 500398

Will this Pokemon will be good? Probably not. Cool to have an extra Defog option though, especially one with better bulk than Quaxwell! Even if its defensive typing is pretty atrocious.
I hope that the presence of Decidueye :decidueye: in higher tiers causes a drop of Lurantis :lurantis: at some point.
Still not amazing, but at least it's fully evolved and not weak to rocks
 

Melt Gibson

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Man, I'm so so disappointed in Dartrix. Defog is Defog, but the lack of any real defensive typing and no U-Turn just sucks so bad. If you want a Defog user I think it's safe to say Pau is the only real option still, but I dunno, maybe with some time I'll be proven wrong. It is only day one after all. Still, the speed tier is a little yikes and it sucks that you do no real damage to anything. Having to resort to Night Shade to not be overly passive outside of Knock is not a good look methinks.
 

Fragmented

procrastinating...
is a Pokemon Researcher
:crabominable:
This thing is still ridiculous to switch into, and it is significantly bulky, even more so when you shed the weaknesses of Ice for the defensive capabilities of Water or some other tera type of your choice. The only thing really holding it back is its abyssmal speed. BoltBeam coverage in Thunder Punch and Ice Hammer, recovery in Drain Punch or raw damage in Close Combat, and even Earthquake to bypass Skuntank's Aftermath if needed. AV sets are by far its most consistent set, but keep a look out for Bulk Up variants on the horizon.

:vigoroth:
SpDef Bulk Up my beloved. Even in the very first days of SV PU, people have been singing its praises. Immunity to sleep, reliable recovery, fast taunts to prevent the likes of Misdreavus and Tinkatuff from statusing you, and a myriad of options to run as an attack, which it can even gain STAB for now with terastallization. However, it does struggle to fit everything it would want into a single moveset, and isn't very strong initially.

:indeedee-f:
Despite the likes of Skuntank, Magneton and Perrserker, Indeedee-F has still managed to carve a place for itself in the metagame. Anything that doesn't resist does not want to take a Psychic or a Psyshock in Psychic Terrain. Psychic Terrain also provides an immunity to priority moves for Indeedee-F and its teammates, but only if they're grounded (so you might want to Tera that Oricorio or Vivillon before you take a Sucker Punch). Access to Healing Wish also allows you to bring a weakened mon back into the fight. It may not fit on every team, but the utility and offensive presence it provides is definitely worth considering.

:hattrem::rabsca:
This is an interesting Trick Room setting core. Hattrem provides hazard control, something which Trick Room teams have suffered to squeeze in for many generations. Additionally, access to Healing Wish faints Hattrem, allowing you to bring in a threat to make use of the remaining turns. Then we have Rabsca, which can revive Hattrem and set up Trick Room of its own. With Rabsca, you can play a bit more reckless with your breakers too, since there is always the option to bring them back for a second round of chaos.
Outside of Trick Room, these two are still great. Hattrem still performs its role as hazard control, bouncing back hazards and other status moves with Magic Bounce, while being an annoyance with paras from Nuzzle. Rabsca still brings back teammates from the dead, turning 5v5s into 6v5s, while also being a bulky mon that can tank a few hits.

:cacturne:
It beats common hazard control mons like Quaxwell and Hattrem pretty handily, and can set up spikes in their absence. Sucker Punch also provides an emergency measure against set up sweepers.

:hippopotas::sandygast:
Shoutout to baby Grounds that are deceptively tanky. Both are Ground types with reliable recovery and more physically defensive, making them less reliable options as switch-ins to the Electrics around. Hippopotas provides Sandstorm chip damage and phazing with Roar/Whirlwind/Yawn, while Sandygast functions as a spinblocker in addition to a hazard setter that can wall Quaxwell after eating a few Liquidations, threatening it back with poisons from Sludge Bomb. They are rather passive, and something bulky with Taunt, say a Vigoroth, can take advantage of them as set up fodder.
 

UberSkitty

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People seem to be debating what's the most "broken" mon in the meta, bar the obvious Oricorio, but I feel like there is an alternative phrase that could be better describing certain mons, "overwhelming".

While seemingly the same word, I do believe it would allow us to better organize the mons we feel unhealthy for the meta. "Broken" would moreso directly refer to mons with specific traits that makes them virtually impossible to deal with, i.e. Quiver Dance. On the other hand, "overwhelming" is more along the lines of mons that may not have one defining quality that justifies a potential ban, but are generally just hard to answer with our current options.

Broken mons:
:oricorio-pau::vivillon-fancy::lilligant:
These three mons are arguably considered the most "broken" mons in the meta, specifically because of Quiver Dance. This is especially when combined with Tera and other aspects like their naturally high speed and moves like Sleep Powder, making it even easier for them to set up and sweep. What I'm getting at here is that it is one specific set that makes the so hard to deal with (to the point where some users think QD itself should just be banned itself), which can easily annihilate teams if given the chance. It has come to the point of "broken beats broken", specifically in terms of Oricorio, who is on so many teams not only for setting up QD, but having a way to somewhat deal with opposing QD mons.

People have been bringing up banning Quiver Dance instead of the users, and while I understand it, I'm not onboard atm. For one thing, it's a little early to be making a complex ban, but if Masquerain drops to PU (I don't keep up with NU) I'd wanna see how it would do with a Quiver Dance set. Also the Home update and DLC are just around the corner, furthering it being to early for a complex ban like this.

:magneton:
This mon already has a bunch of great qualities between Analytic, bulk, that sexy SpAtk, and typing. But what currently puts it over the line is Tera. With options like Tera Water and Ground, it makes mons that wanna voltblock/check it, like Camerupt and Pincurchin respectively, unreliable answers. And with Magneton's ability to come in on so many mons, it's able to just fire off Volt Switches often. But even without Tera, it's still a huge threat, specifically its recent Eviolite set furthering its bulk, of course not to mention its other sets like Specs and Scarf. It even sometimes runs Metal Pull to lure other Magneton, another example of using broken to beat broken. With the difficultly of beating Magneton with a bulkier option, it might leave you having to find a more offensive approach that might not even be able to break through that bulk. Although if Magneton were to be banned, it would be interesting to see how other Electrics like Frostom and Raichu thrive, also having Tera to help with threats.

Overwhelming mons:
:houndoom::haunter:
Versatility is the name of the game for these mons. While they do not have one specific "broken" set like the above mons, they can be very unpredictable and virtually impossible to prepare for all the sets in one team. Your answer for Houndoom is a scarfer? It pulls out a random Sucker Punch. You wanna Paralyze that Haunter? It Subs on you and proceeds to NP and sweep. The list of their sets can go on and on, and s/o to Haunter with that large utility movepool. Still bannable mons, just not for the same reasons.

:crabominable:
While having become the lesser of the worries atm, Crab is still a huge threat that can put a lot of pressure in teambuilding. It can switch in on so many mons with that bulk while recovering any damage with Drain Punch alongside that Attack. Rinse and Repeat. There are so few switchins, with supposed checks like Grumpig not having the bulk and Crab's coverage going all over the place with Thunder Punch and EQ. While maybe not able to sweep through teams like the others, it can easily take out a few mons on the way.

This:
Overall, I'd agree with most in that Oricorio is the most broken rn, and if that were to leave the other two QD mons would prob follow. Not to say I don't find Magneton, Houndoom, and Haunter still unhealthy. But as more mons are banned, it's hard to say if some of these mons will remain unhealthy as there are less mons to worry about so much when teambuilding, aka become less overwhelming. Also who knows what will drop from NU, maybe some new checks, some new broken mons, or just some more hazard removal. Could also lead to mons like Vigoroth rising up and eventually getting banned too. Rise of the Planet of the Ape-Sloths:vigoroth::vigoroth::vigoroth:

Here are some fun NFEs people users have been using in attempt to answer the mons! (some slightly very much more viable than others)
:zweilous::slowpoke::bramblin::mareanie::marill::shroodle:
 

fish anemometer

I ❤️HOLE
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I've been wanting to make a post akin to the one above about the meta being "overwhelming" but not super broken, so I will echo and add my own observations. When i look at teams people bring to the kickoff tours or more serious ladder teams, there is always fatal flaw(s) to very relevant meta strategies on almost every team, and to me it makes this meta feel very matchup fishy. There's the QDers, volt switch pressure from rotomf and magneton, hazard stack, t-spikes which straight up autowins vs many teams lacking skunk, many teams lack a ground immunity or lack a steel type and get bullied if the opponent gets a favorable mu. Rain is still super deadly and crushes so many teams that dont have spdef gogoat/cacturne/cloud nine since a lot of people call tera water camerupt their water resist... You also cant forget the fast fire types houndoom and pyroar. Haunter which is broken or overrated depending on how much you use skunk. Vigo, crab, gogoat...

I am NOT saying that matchups should always be even for every style against one another, or that it's impossible to win if your opponent brings that fatal flaw. I do understand we have less resources down here in PU, and trying to blanket check everything or improve the matchup against one threat will lead to a worse matchup vs other threats, and that this is part of the metagame. However I do think that the current amount of threats is really too much to handle, beyond the margin of "this teamslot sort of lets me outplay X". It's rare for me to be satisfied with anything I build or look at another person's team and be excited to steal their ideas, because it gets super smashed by a common strategy piloted by a player that can identify the wincons. I won't even get started on the impact tera has. Insane can of worms that may just be the root cause for all of this.:woop: I voted no ban, im an idiot, but at the time i really thought it was too soon!

I don't think all the threats are broken, I think accounting for it all on one team is incredibly strenuous and often feels like i should just pick my poison and try to trick my opponent into throwing before holding the L. Gonna add that i regularly have 2 of my alts both in the top 5 of the ladder so i really am trying to throw at the wall but not much is sticking.
 

sugar ovens

blood inside
is a Top Tiering Contributor
Hi so since i don't know of any public way of getting stats from replays aside of usage and (ew) winrate: here are some stats from first three rounds of kickoff*. Don't take this too seriously - it's very work in progress and some mistakes are likely - i'm no programmer, small sample size etc. Let me know if you find something suspicious or obviously wrong..

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IttUI8H_Ma_gU7hVljqYIGB7Voq1NchwqoXdQE4iI_g/

AtkDD/U direct attack damage dealt per one use
AtkDD/SI direct attack damage dealt per one switchin
AvgAtkDD average direct attack damage dealt.
VarAtkDD variability of ^
MedAtkDD median direct attack damage dealt
Atks/U direct attacks per one use
IndDD/U indirect damage dealt per use (hazards, status, stuff like rough skin)
HealA/U allowed healing per use (%HP opponents mons healed when against this mon on field)
EfDD/U effective damage dealt per use (DD by direct attacks + indirect DD - healing allowed.. Should be the damage dealt stat that is not affected by shenanigans like a mon bashing at sth that just immediately recovers all damage)
AtkKOs/U direct attack KOs per use
KOs/U all KOs per use

AvgAtkDT average damage taken from direct attacks
VarAtkDT variability of that
MedAtkDT median of that
TotDT/U total damage taken per use
TotDT/SI total damage taken per switchin
SI/U number of switchins per use
PSurvSI probability to survive a switchin
AvgRemHP average remaining HP at the end of the game
Fnt/U faints per use

MDD1/U momentum damage dealt per use (uh, so lets say i have a pokemon A, switch it out for pokemon B, then all damage suffered by opponent's mons while pokemon B is in the field [until it switches out] is "momentum damage" dealt by pokemon A. I.. do intend to add something.. better for momentum eventually, it's just hard, you know?)
MDT1/U same thing but its the damage taken by pokemon B

*all replays with Zorua are automatically omitted. That pokemon should just burn in hell tbh. Two other replays are missing for (as of now) mysterious reasons.
 

Fragmented

procrastinating...
is a Pokemon Researcher
is there anyway to make stantler usable. he is one of my favorite pokemon, but every normal outdoes it
Ya, Stantler's kind of outclassed. I've seen some people talk about Calm Mind Eviolite sets with Stored Power.

:sv/stantler:
Stantler @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Tera Blast
- Earth Power​

I'm guessing something like this can work. Enough Speed EVs for Jolly Perrserker, Tera Ghost to avoid Close Combat and Drain Punches that would KO you otherwise. Tera Blast can work before and after Tera as a STAB move. Stantler gets Earth Power apparently, which helps against Steels like Magneton and Perrserker, as well as the common Skuntank. Intimidate makes switching into physical attackers easier, though you can also opt to run Sap Sipper to bait Sleep Powders from Vivillon and Lilligant. Needs several boosts before it can really do damage.
 

UberSkitty

Now accepting bribes
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is there anyway to make stantler usable. he is one of my favorite pokemon, but every normal outdoes it
Well for one thing if u want to know about mons/sets stuff ur prob better off asking in the PS room or Discord for more advice and stuff. On the other hand I got swept by this once:
:stantler:
Stantler @ Eviolite
Ability: Sap Sipper
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tera Blast
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

tho yeah there are generally much better bulky normal mons like Vigoroth. but if u like Stantler design wise, the other reindeer named Sawsbuck is very usable!
 
Well for one thing if u want to know about mons/sets stuff ur prob better off asking in the PS room or Discord for more advice and stuff. On the other hand I got swept by this once:
:stantler:
Stantler @ Eviolite
Ability: Sap Sipper
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tera Blast
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

tho yeah there are generally much better bulky normal mons like Vigoroth. but if u like Stantler design wise, the other reindeer named Sawsbuck is very usable!

Girafarig @ Eviolite
Ability: Early Bird
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Stored Power
- Tera Blast
Girafarig is actually better due to STAB stored power. I think bulky stantler is the way to go.

Stantler @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake


-1 252+ Atk Iron Fist Crabominable Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Stantler: 140-168 (40 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Guts Flareon Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Stantler: 107-127 (30.5 - 36.2%) -- 55.5% chance to 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Guts Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Stantler: 138-163 (39.4 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 

EonX

Battle Soul
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Agreeing that Dartrix's defensive typing is incredibly tragic. Having Roost, Defog, and Knock Off should give it great utility, but having to run Eviolite for bulk means Rocks rip into it and it isn't like it has a good matchup into our common Rockers. Tinkatuff Knocks it, Camerupt burns it sooner or later and drains Roost's 8 PP quickly, and Perrserker doesn't exactly care for any offensive move Dartrix would use. If I want a Knock user, I"m using Tinkatuff. Moving away from that, I want to discuss more about a Pokemon I mentioned a couple days ago but just love right now:


Gabite @ Eviolite
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Atk / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance

Imo, this is the most consistent Stealth Rock user in the tier right now. This blends Gabite's power, speed, and bulk to make the most out of all of it. 160 Speed EVs keep Gabite ahead of neutral base 70s, which most importantly includes Magneton while full HP investment gives Gabite enough bulk to handle Magneton once on the switch comfortably, +1 Oricorio Revelation Dance, +1 Lilligant Petal Dance, and Choice Band Perrserker Iron Head (you even have a 44% chance to survive Tera Steel Iron Head from it should you not be able to Tera) While most of these attacks, Gabite is barely surviving, having a Pokemon on an offensive team that can handle one of these powerful hits before phazing out the target can make all the difference. This is why Dragon Tail is used over Dragon Claw and Dragon Tail's phazing effect also means that Quaxwell is unable to Roost after ridding the field of entry hazards. Also keep in mind that Quaxwell is taking Rough Skin damage on the spin, likely Rocks damage on its way in, and potentially an EQ the turn it switches in, which means when you phaze it out with Dragon Tail, it's close to or below 50%, which significantly hinders its ability to check offensive threats later on. Swords Dance is a bit of a filler move, but being able to punish slower teams is really nice. I've been enjoying it with Pyroar and Lycanroc-Midnight in particular as Gabite is able to take a couple of hits for them while pushing stuff into their KO ranges. For those wondering about the Attack EVs, it's just leftover. If there's other Speed benchmarks you want to hit, you can spare some Attack EVs. However, do keep in mind that, with an Adamant nature, the Attack EVs can begin to amplify should you set up Swords Dance.
 

Chloe

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NUPL Champion
1679220001604.png

Been meaning to write this post for a while but I keep getting half way through and losing motivation. If you're seeing this now, I finally finished it (yay). Given we are voting on a few Pokemon this weekend, I've pushed myself to finally give my comprehensive thoughts on the metagame. I surprisingly really enjoy the metagame a lot, even with several questionably broken threats, I think it is fun to build for and play. I also think while terastallization is clearly not healthy in terms of competitive singles Pokemon, it can be "fun" to use. I'm just deriving a lot of enjoyment out of the tier even if it is flawed. Everything in this post is my own personal opinion and does not reflect the thoughts of the council in any way.

The Pokemon we are voting on:
Oricorio-Pa'u - I don't think this is an outlandish take by any means. This Pokemon is insanely stupid and generally has no reliable counterplay. It sets up on so much, and doesn't really worry about much due to its tera type patching its inability to hit Steel-types and improving its defensive typing. I was hopeful this Pokemon would prove to be balanced once it got more attention post Baile's ban, but it has only shown how it presents the same issues, and how terastallization exacerbates its already potent features.

Magneton - While I personally think this Pokemon on paper is beyond what the metagame is really able to handle, I think in practice it never really pushes beyond what's acceptable. I do think its STABs + Tera-Ground/Tera-Water are impossible to reliably switch into, but again in practice I've never really felt like this Pokemon pushes itself over the edge. It's difficult to make an argument for keeping it but I think I'm just kind of reserved to the opinion currently that while it seems so powerful, it doesn't feel overwhelming in comparison to other breakers we have. Its speed tier is middling and its STABs are walled by several common Pokemon prior to terastallization. Feels like it really requires Terastallization to push itself over the edge but I never really see this happen in practice. Post terastallization it also suffers from having transformed into a much worse defensive typing generally. A lot of this is anecdotal experience with the Pokemon and not really concrete reasoning, hence why I think I need more time to ponder the effect of this Pokemon in the tier. My current vote though would be DNB, pushing for it to be included on the following slate.

Haunter - I used to think this Pokemon was stupid but I've since seen it rarely pop off, it feels like the metagame has adapted to it substantially. Even if a team lacks Skuntank, Haunter doesn't seem like the uber prominent breaker it was earlier in the tier's lifecycle. The only sets that seem worth using are the Choiced sets which both have issues due to their STABs immunities; or Hex sets which in my opinion are yet to really stand out. Again I think it might be a similar case with there just being breakers with similar power levels, and it doesn't really feel like Haunter stands out by a large margin. Just my personal take though.

============================================

The other commonly called brokens:
Vivillon - I do not like the effect Vivillon has on the metagame. I think it's very dumb and spirals out of control very easily if the opposing team doesn't have substantially powerful priority or certain defensive counterplay. It already has decent coverage from the get go but post terastallization this mon excels at just sweeping through the majority of the tier. Its frailness is rarely an issue, and when it is it's because the opponent ran some unmon like Persian or had to rely on getting Sucker Punch right. I know I'm in the minority on council on this though. I really dislike Vivillon in the current tier.

Lilligant - I think Lilligant presents a lot of the same issues but suffers extensively from its lack of an initial offensive movepool. Its overreliance on Grass-type STAB generally means it has counterplay and is usually FORCED to terastallize to do anything notable in a match. It's still a great Pokemon, and one I think is very underappreciated, but in comparison to other potent threats generally isn't too special.

Houndoom - Houndoom has never really felt overwhelming to me. All of its sets have major issues that hold it back and in my honest opinion the Pokemon is consistently overrated. The prevalence of a Pokemon like Quaxwell, which deals with non NP sets well enough is a little funny, given the Pokemon doesn't even have a massive defense stat. It's a good breaker but one that doesn't separate itself from the crowd. I say this repeatedly, and the argument could be made that well "oh yea they're all broken then" but no they're not. These Pokemon are just good special breakers, and while it can be annoying to account for all of them, they are not finding themselves over the edge, at least in my personal opinion.

Crabominable - Never really saw this as anything out of the ordinary. I think it's a cool Pokemon to have in the meta generally, and while it lacks substantial counterplay on paper, this never really ends up being an issue in practice. I do however see this maybe being more problematic once people bridge out with sets more. If stuff like Sub 3 Attacks was the norm, I could definitely see it being a lot more potent. As it stands, does not punch above the rest of the tier by any means.

Rotom-Frost - Excellent pivot, excellent offensive typing and generally a menace to deal with. Needs more time to settle in the metagame in my opinion; it hasn't shown to be broken so far, only just an effective pivot. Love this Pokemon though I throw it on so many teams.

I've also heard calls to ban Glaceon or Perrserker, but given these takes are so rare and in my opinion not remotely banworthy, I will not be focusing on them here.

============================================

Very Underrated Pokemon (not broken my any means) in the current metagame:
Cacturne - While this Pokemon isn't exactly rated poorly, I feel like people consistently forget about its offensive sweeper set potential. +2 Tera Dark Sucker Punch is absolutely insane and decimates the majority of the tier. A lot of games it can just clean through with ease. Tera Dark SD on the Quaxwell Brave Bird turn, and then just take the game.
Also while I'm here I will spout my propaganda for Aqua Jet over Brave Bird on Quaxwell, that move genuinely feels so much better and generally accomplishes a lot more than nailing a Gogoat for under half on the switchin.

Tinkatuff - This is our premier defensive Steel-type. Perrserker's defensive utility does not compare. This is genuinely a pain for most Pokemon to muscle through, it has very useful utility; Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Encore, Thunder Wave are all immensely useful for Tinkatuff in standing out above Perrserker. If we were voting on the VR tomorrow, this Pokemon would be A+ or A for me easily. It consistently feels like people sleep on this Pokemon for some odd reason, even if people are in agreement that it's good.

Raboot - I genuinely think most people forgot this Pokemon existed. It's genuinely fairly powerful, has very good coverage and a pretty decent speed tier. Flare Blitz, HJK, Gunk Shot, U-turn, Sucker, Acro. Can perform well as a choiced mon, the set I can vouch for is Scarf as I've used that a fair bit and it outspeeds everything you need to other than like Scarf base 95s.

============================================

Very OVERRATED Pokemon in the current metagame:

Shroodle
- Shroodle is unfortunately not good. It is an attempted patch fix for teams weak to set up sweepers, or teams with a lack of offensive momentum, that is never worth running. If you get to the point where you want to add a Shroodle to your team, my honest advice would be to start over and try to cover offensive sweepers properly. This is not a sufficient answer to anything, nor is its combination of Toxic + Parting Shot noteworthy enough to justify use. It is outclassed as a weather setter too as Pokemon like Raichu, Murkrow, defensive Perrserker and honestly several others have more going for them. This is just a gimmick, and not a good one.

Jumpluff - Jumpluff struggles immensely from the power level in the tier currently. Its attacks do not do enough, it does not do enough. It has no defensive appeal. Its speed tier while impressive to some degree, isn't enough to carry the remainder of its shocking attributes. This Pokemon does not justify usage.

Zweilous - Someone put this at S on their personal VR which is absurd as all things come. This Pokemon doesn't do enough. Its defensive typing aiding versus Houndoom is great and all, but never has this justified an individual slot. 72% chance to phase out sweepers that people claim it prevents from sweeping. Why would I run this over specially defensive Dragonair? OH OH OH ALSO im not typing out an entire paragraph but this is the same shit with Sliggoo. Dragonair outclasses both, please don't use Zweilous and Sliggoo :(

===========================================

Other miscellaneous thoughts and ramblings:
  • tera sucks in singles, and would immediately make the metagame 10x more playable if it were gone but it is also super fun to abuse and we would not look good for banning it especially this early into the meta so shrug. if this were like vgc where you knew tera types prior to the match it would be immensely better, but alas.
  • only removal worth running is quaxwell. toedscool/carkol maybe on hazard stack if you need a spiker. dartrix is bad, defog pa'u is bad.
  • spikes are rare enough that with a tspikes absorber you can get away with no removal for now, but i think misdreavus spikestack might pick up in usage soon and that would be pretty tragic.
  • self setting golduck / scovillain are cool additions to balance that i really think work well in the current context of the meta. people consider them solely on their respective weather teams and that shouldn't be the case.
  • scarf lycan is so fricking good once stuff like gabite / quax are wittled or knocked. such an easy scarfer to slip onto a lot of teams too.
  • dugtrio also consistently underrated / ignored in the conversation of top tier mons.
  • i enjoy just loading up ladder a lot in this which is something i haven't been able to say for a long time but then again it's a new tier so hard to say how much of that is just new meta syndrome.
  • i want a duck for my backyard, but idk if they can fly. i guess i'll look into it; don't really wanna keep it in a cage. if you have any info on this please like dm me on discord.

Thank you very much for reading my nonsense and I hope to see my opinions validated with the upcoming vote!
 
since i participated in the vote as a rotating council member, i wrote up short reasonings for each of my votes. happy banhammer day!

----------------------

:sv/oricorio-pau: - BAN. easily the single biggest threat in the current metagame, no other mon has quite the same snowballing capabilities due to its ease of setting up, excellent speed tier, amazing move in revelation dance, reliable recovery in roost, and a myriad of viable tera options that make optimal prep for it a basically impossible chore. it can't even check itself reliably due to how easy it is to slap on mirror herb over boots. good riddance.

:sv/haunter: - DO NOT BAN. while i do think haunter is extremely good and has the potential to be overbearing with its wide variety of effective sets, i also see it as a necessary evil and one of the few good offensive checks we will have to deal with +1 vivillon and lilligant in a post-pa'u metagame, as other scarfers either don't outspeed them (frosttom, fantom, lycanroc) or come with other problems such as being frail and weak to rocks/spikes (houndoom, pyroar). meanwhile, non-scarfed variants are scary but ultimately feel manageable due to haunter's frailty, with increasingly common mons such as drakloak and jumpluff being able to offensively check substitute variants reliably. additionally, one of its best checks in skuntank is a genuinely excellent pokemon in the metagame that fits super easily on teams, and not something niche you'd use out of sheer necessity (looking at you, zweilous). i'd like to give haunter a bit more time and re-evaluate it once the meta adapts to the pa'u ban.

:sv/magneton: - DO NOT BAN. i just don't find it to be as overbearing in the builder and in battles as some other mons in the metagame (incl. some which aren't on the current voting slate). while tera is a big boost to its potency, it's often just enough to remove an offensive check by surprise but not quite enough to straight up snowball games like pa'u does, and it also relies on tera to overcome its limited movepool and common weaknesses which can limit your plays if you want to reserve the tera for another mon. in addition, it's another potential check to viv/lilli and having it around gives them yet another dilemma in choosing their tera types, which i think can ultimately lead them to be less consistent and slightly more easily manageable in a post-pa'u meta. in general i feel like it's a healthy presence in the metagame with good set variety, and really nothing i consider to be banworthy in the current age.
 

TTK

First Impression
is a Community Contributor
here to explain my votes for the voting slate that just passed that led to Pa'u getting banned from this tier which is honestly quite good. I want to thank the tier leaders for offering me a say on my favourite tier's tiering.

:oricorio-pau:: Completely unanimous vote here which I would've been quite surprised if it wasn't. Even without the presence of firebird its relative, Pa'u was still just such a pain in the ass to face in this tier. Everyone has already gotten into the details regarding mindbird but again I'll just reiterate that it was too easy to setup and tera made it bypass usual checks eg steels.

:magneton:: Now Magneton wasn't something I expected to go but I should explain why I voted ban. I think Shaneghoul and Magnemite's posts convinced me that Magneton was an unwanted presence in this tier. To be honest, I like using this mon a lot and it's definitely strong, it's not broken but even with other brokens within the same tier, it still finds itself somewhat an unhealthy presence. Magneton is an offensive mon that hardly finds itself having weaknesses of offensive pokemon. It's quite bulky with an Eviolite not to mention its defensive typing complements itself quite well with its bulk. Its biggest weakness can also just be circumvented by clicking the tera button and either going into Water or Ground, it can easily get around both its offensive and defensive answers like Pyroar, Camerupt and Gabite. This is the pokemon that makes tera guessing games annoying asf and it's always in the Magneton user's favour, it doesn't matter what your response is, Analytic boosted attacks just shred everything in a tier where a lot of our defensive backbones have no recovery.

:haunter:: I've never found Haunter to be this overwhelming threat that its loudest pro-banners claim it to be. Haunter is a very strong pokemon and has only gotten better going into SV thanks to gaining Nasty Plot and Focus Blast and we all know how strong Ghost/Fighting coverage is. The problem with Haunter is that despite its multitude of sets, ranging from Specs, LO, Scarf, Sub+NP, Sub in general, Sub + Disable etc, all of them have reasonable counterplay. Nasty Plot is still outsped by common mons like DugWug, Pyroar and has to speedtie with Houndoom. Scarf lacks breaking power. I am unaware of ladder Skuntank usage but this mon is the most used mon in the first tour of the gen and is a solid Haunter response. Haunter is also let down by its bulk, it can't really switch into much of anything though people would like to bring up its 3 immunities, particularly to Rapid Spin but that read for Quaxwell is so obvious, Haunter just gets chunked by Liquidation.

My own opinions here again but in the future, we now have to look towards the remaining qd mons :vivillon: and :lilligant:. Tbh, I think Vivillon should still be gone and idt my opinion will change anytime soon. ig we'll see how :magneton: and :haunter: continue to do moving forward and also some other mons that people still have issues with like :houndoom: and :pyroar:
 

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