Metagame np: Stage 4 - Celebration (Feraligatr Banned)

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I voted Ban Steelixite and Don't Ban Heliolisk

Reasoning:

As someone who used this since it was introduced I would have been the first to say it has to go (I guess I wasn't :{). This thing basically makes fifty percent of the metagame useless and also functions as a nuke with stealth rock. Compared to something with a similar description like hariyama, Mega-Lix is somewhat more difficult to wall, has fairly decent utility in stealth rock/roar, gets even more impossible to wall under sand, and it just walls far more things than anything else in the tier. Not only that when it walls them it practically makes them useless to have even brought to the match.

Steelix can fit as a physical wall in most teams and does not require virtually any support. It becomes overly necessary to put mega lix in with your cores to make them function as highly as you want them to. It can fit in any play style against any play style except maybe against rain/sun.



At first I was with the crowds saying ban heliolisk (I also wanted viriz banned but I got over that). I started laddering with some teams where I didn't really prepare for viriz just to see what would happen. Honestly heliolisk may be hard to counter but in general it doesn't force nearly as many switches as people originally made it seem. I noticed in general it can get lethal results if the opponent predicts well enough but in general it was quite manageable.

Honestly I was on the fence about this mon... it worked amazingly in the meta and can volt switch out so many times. It has coverage making it nearly uncounterable and can just voltswitch out and get a better match-up. Logically I kind I am leaning towards ban for it but in practice I feel like it really isn't broken :/
I'm basically repeating earlier stuff here, but a Pokemon doesn't have to be broken to be banned. If it's just good enough to center the meta around itself, that's often enough cause for concern. Seriously, I really don't think Heliolisk belongs in NU.
 
testsubordinate
a mon that centers the meta around itself is by definition broken lol- the two reasons we ban things are for being uncompetitive, e.g. ohko moves, or for being overcentralizing, e.g. megamence. you can argue what the definition of broken is but in essence we ban things for being broken or whatever word you want to use. it's a moot point.
i'd post my thoughts on snake and lizard but i'm new to this meta so in all likelihood i'd just end up making myself look like an idiot.
 

Punchshroom

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Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake / Substitute

The set to prepare for. Speed lets Gatr creep Archeops and Tauros after +1, and is fast enough to outrun Scarf Rotom after +2. Leftover HP EVs happen to be enough to conveniently survive Scarf Rotom's Thunderbolt from full and give it just that extra bit of bulk (especially when concerning a certain move's HP management).

Everyone knows how DD Gatr rolls: use its good typing and bulk to boost, and sweep the foe with insane power and respectable neutral coverage. And while Sheer Force obviously augments Gatr's already great power, it also yields another advantage in that now Gatr can no longer be worn down by its own Life Orb. This means Gatr can now afford Substitute.

The ability to run Substitute is significant for many would-be Gatr checks: now Pokemon that rely on status to beat Gatr have to play a potentially game-ending prediction game, or in some cases be totally helpless. The threat of Substitute giving Gatr a free boost / attack off means that the likes of Gourgeist, Weezing, Musharna, Uxie, Mantine, and Seismitoad have to debate whether or not to status Gatr or attack to break its Sub, and mispredicting even once can be extremely costly (or, you know, game-ending), while Gatr usually can afford one slip-up due to its bulk. Some mons like Ferroseed and Prinplup find themselves absolute fodder now, unless they start running Grass moves. Even the Pokemon that Gatr would've missed out on if it drops Earthquake can find themselves in a pickle; Qwilfish wants Poison Jab to even do anything to Gatr, while Lanturn wasting its Volt Switch on the Sub and exposing its teammates would prompt it to run Thunderbolt and not look back. One can even use Substitute to punish offensive switch-ins, which most offensive teams would likely pull given how urgent it is for them to answer the Gatr threat immediately.

Ironically enough, the only reason I am still keeping Earthquake on Gatr is the threat of other Gatrs using it as a setup opportunity (Even SmashPass Huntail / Gorebyss aren't as great threats because Gatr can punish their recipient for huge damage or with Substitute).

The only defensive counters that remain unfazed by this change would be Poliwrath, bulky Ludicolo, and Tangela (or if you want to be real, fucking Lapras >.<). The other Gatr responses now have to play dangerous mindgames, and some others need to start running certain moves just to stay in said game. Expect Gatr to create some massive shifts in this meta.
 
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Deej Dy

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I'd be all for a quickban, rather than a suspect seeing as gatr's previous soft checks no longer fit the role.
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 315-372 (88.9 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Tangela: 234-276 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not going to even bother with Lilligant and Virizion (120-150% range)

Anywayz, I also agree with Punch on sub, as I've been using it as well even before the drop. With it, bulky water types like Prinplup, Weezing, Ferroseed, and Gourgiest without seed bomb are now annihilated.

It is also worth mentioning Quagsire cant even switch in on Gatr to check it
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 168-199 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

It is stupid fast and strong after 1 boost, and easy to predict a scarf switchin, if that is the opponents only hope (which is entirely believable)

I don't want to run rocky helmet Avalugg and max def Tangela so I would hope changes are implemented soon, rather than an extended suspect to make the metagame stable for the first time since ORAS came out in November. Dealing with the Lopunny/Altaria era, Glalie era, Pangoro era, Helio and Megalix era was enough.
I personally view it as more broken than Helioisk and Megalix. Anyway those are my thoughts.

PS. Not even scarf Seaking can beat it
 


The results are in, Steelixite and Heliolisk are banned from NU. You can see it all here.

The changes will be up on PS sometime soon, enjoy the new metagame!


For reference, Steelixite was banned due to its massive bulk allowing it to check most physical attackers, many special attackers, while also having great attacking potential, which made it by far the most consistent Stealth Rock user in NU. As one of 3 megas, there was very little opportunity cost, and its effectiveness centralized NU around it immensely.

Heliolisk was banned from NU because of its amazing ability to grab and maintain momentum. A powerful STAB Volt Switch, a long with excellent coverage, allowed Heliolisk to defeat many offensive teams outright. Being one of the fastest Pokemon in NU, Heliolisk forced players to run many subpar Pokemon in an attempt to beat it, many of which lost anyways.


Of course this is just a brief summary of why they were banned, read many of the excellent posts in this thread if you want more detail!
 
I'd also support a quick ban for gatr. I'm all for keeping things that are 50/50 in the tier and giving pokemon a chance before they're deemed to be broken but gatr is just stupidly broken having life orb sheer force power to get past all of its checks with either a physical or special set. There is no deemed "counter" anymore. You can't rely on ferroseed, tangela, seismitoad, mantine etc etc since they all get bopped by one set of the other. I think it would just save a lot of time, hassle and tears from people if we just got rid of it quickly rather than complain about it a lot and then ban it.
 
Veering off the quickban subject; now that Steelixite is dead, would Fairies in this meta get any better? I know that basically just consists of Mega Audino, Granbull, and... lol wigglytuff, but even so.
 
I want to express, I have been against this thing being in NU since XY, so this may seem a little biased. However, I'd agree with a quickban. It's clearly too much for the tier. The only reason I'd want a suspect is so I can gain an extra vote towards my badge. ;]
In all honesty, we know this thing is destructive, and more destructive than it already was. Especially when you consider Lizard just left, one of its better checks, giving it even more options to run.
 
Veering off the quickban subject; now that Steelixite is dead, would Fairies in this meta get any better? I know that basically just consists of Mega Audino, Granbull, and... lol wigglytuff, but even so.
Mawile is probably the best fairy type of the tier. Now that Mega-Steelix is gone it'll be a revival of Crodino and maybe of Granbull. Overall, the fairies in the tier will remain more or less what they've always been.

I want to express, I have been against this thing being in NU since XY, so this may seem a little biased. However, I'd agree with a quickban. It's clearly too much for the tier. The only reason I'd want a suspect is so I can gain an extra vote towards my badge. ;]
In all honesty, we know this thing is destructive, and more destructive than it already was. Especially when you consider Lizard just left, one of its better checks, giving it even more options to run.
Gatr was always been checked until now so I never thought it was a big deal. Sheer Force means only Quag and Toad can really wall Gatr without it having Natural Gift. It could easily be as costless as running Mega-Steelix was just without the bulk. Personally, I don't normally go to ban or quickban because I feel things can always be adapted or introduced into the tier to change the meta but maybe SF Gatr is just too strong too quickly.
 

Orphic

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Veering off the quickban subject; now that Steelixite is dead, would Fairies in this meta get any better? I know that basically just consists of Mega Audino, Granbull, and... lol wigglytuff, but even so.
Well Garbodor still exists with decent usage, I can see it rising too with Steelix gone and as a way of wearing down gatr (Aftermath + helmet)?
 

Disjunction

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I would also be in favor of a quick ban for gatr. While it is typically our policy to allow the meta to settle around big threats introduced to the tier (a policy we've had a lot of discussion about, too, of course), this is a pokemon that we've had in our tier for as long as its induction. As a long standing threat in the tier, it was always a grey-zone mon to whether or not it should be suspected. The new drops nerfed its best set, but with SF, there is no reason to run SD anymore. All the power you need is attained in a +1 boost to your attack and that +1 speed lets you outspeed every relevant check to you outside of scarfmons and Swellow. Even outside of this, Gatr can run an entirely new, specially orriented set to beat its old counters like Ferroseed, Vileplume, and Tangela. With its notable bulk and offensive pressure, it finds set up opportunities quite easily. I'm sure I don't have to post calcs because others before me have posted calcs and others after me will post calcs. I just wanted to post to throw my thoughts on it out there.
 
Just want to point out that all defensive answers to this mon such as toad, quag are beaten. The calcs are somewhere in this thread. But nevertheless; It's bulky enough to setup on most of the tier and is powerful enough to destroy anything that gets in its way. The DD set is by far its best set since it eliminates all checks that aren't scarfed and it doesn't need the +2 anymore to cause damage. For things like ferroseed, tangela, toad, they can all be beaten by a special feraligatr set which is extremely viable now, or just worn down and then beaten by the DD set. SD is still an option even if it isn't the "best" set and it can literally destroy every mon in this tier with a form of coverage move, stab, priority or setup move. It's much better in practice than it is in theory mon so this is why I'd just like it gone to ease the hassle.
 
Why is it taking so long for him to get quickbanned, the top of the ladder are probably farming rakings exploiting him before they ban it.
It literally hasnt been a day since the last test ended >.> im all for a quickban as well but give it more than 20 hours before complaining that the system moves too slow. Also if you honestly think that people "farm rankings" at the top of the ladder (whatever the fuck that means) then you need to take a step back and reevaluate.
 

Lord Alphose

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On to relevant things:

I'm not entirely sure I agree with a quickban on Gatr. At least, not yet, I suppose. True it has been in the tier for some time now, but to be honest, the Torrent Swords Dance set and the Sheer Force Dragon Dance or special sets function really differently. I think it's different enough to merit some amount of time to see if the metagame has the potential to adjust sufficiently. Like Can-Eh-Dian said, the bans occurred less than a day ago. Let's give it a little more time before we start jumping to quickbanning. At least give me time to get higher on the ladder.
 
Wait what are you even talking about @_@. Of course i've used feraligatr everyone has, after using it and seeing the effect it has on the metagame, im in favor of a ban. Why would the fact that have used it make my opinion any less viable. It makes it more viable because i actually have experience with it,,,,,,,
Haha smart answer, i was testing you, back to what i said yeah you were right,i got to eager to say "why isnnt he banned already"only 20 hours right? .It was just me saying, wow Fereligatr is definetly a must ban imo, especially the dd set.

Now to add something, before that ability was released he was good in the meta, not broken. I wish there could be a way to only the ability to be banned so he stays, just saying, i know Smogon doesnt ban abilities. sigh
 
Haha smart answer, i was testing you, back to what i said yeah you were right,i got to eager to say "why isnnt he banned already"only 20 hours right? .It was just me saying, wow Fereligatr is definetly a must ban imo, especially the dd set.

Now to add something, before that ability was released he was good in the meta, not broken. I wish there could be a way to only the ability to be banned so he stays, just saying, i know Smogon doesnt ban abilities. sigh
No, because that's a complex ban. Sheer Force isn't broken on it's own; just the combination of traits Feraligatr has.
 
Why show calcs against a never before seen arceus variant? Besides that, gatr is so much more viable as a physical attacker due to overall power and because of access to moves like sd and dd. Plus as long as mantine and toad see usage in NU I don't think many people with opt to use a special gatr.
The calcs were for damage comparison. I'd actually post more showing that Gatr is actually STRONGER than megagyara and has a better defensive typing, but I'm on mobile rn. Also, there are people using special Gatr; that's like saying people won't use rott because mantine and co. exist. Also if you really hate Mantine that much you can run HP Electric, I'm sure non-HP grass variants of special Gatr beat Toad 1v1 (albeit with a good bit of damage).
But the point of special Gatr isn't to be super-strong standard set, it's supposed to be a lure akin to FB Mawile/Tauros that actually has use outside of that one thing. It literally (as I showed before) destroys all of its "counters" while still being a threat. Granted, it gains a new set of checks/counters, but those can be played around as well. I didn't particularly like Gatr in XY and pre-SF, but now it has INSANE power and versatility? Go away pls.
 
On to relevant things:

I'm not entirely sure I agree with a quickban on Gatr. At least, not yet, I suppose. True it has been in the tier for some time now, but to be honest, the Torrent Swords Dance set and the Sheer Force Dragon Dance or special sets function really differently. I think it's different enough to merit some amount of time to see if the metagame has the potential to adjust sufficiently. Like Can-Eh-Dian said, the bans occurred less than a day ago. Let's give it a little more time before we start jumping to quickbanning. At least give me time to get higher on the ladder.
Jus' gonna compare damage output with the SD set in XY and the DD sf set in oras so you know how much of a difference this can make:
+2 252+ Atk Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 248-292 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 315-372 (88.9 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
That also equates to +1 speed to outspeed certain threats like virizion and any other non scarfed check for gatr.
Yes it can get burnt, but gatr is choosing to run sub as a moveslot to bop things like weezing, gourgeist without seed bomb and other scald / will-o users.
I don't need to say anymore to convince you do I?
 
Jus' gonna compare damage output with the SD set in XY and the DD sf set in oras so you know how much of a difference this can make:
+2 252+ Atk Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 248-292 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 315-372 (88.9 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
That also equates to +1 speed to outspeed certain threats like virizion and any other non scarfed check for gatr.
Yes it can get burnt, but gatr is choosing to run sub as a moveslot to bop things like weezing, gourgeist without seed bomb and other scald / will-o users.
I don't need to say anymore to convince you do I?
Power increase of even that amount is not enough to quickban. Imo the centralization gatr now puts on teams is a much more major element, defensive mons are now horrible answers to gatr because they either cannot live the hit anymore, or cannot Ohko back, but then again its bulk never changed so its the increase in power that made the bulk look better. SD is more matchup dependent then DD is but it completely ruins stall, and can catch one of the few revenge killers in scarf rotom after Sr with aqua jet at +2 iirc.But I am all for a suspect, not a quick ban on the grounds of giving the meta time and the rather transparency it yields.
 

Punchshroom

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Back for another post.

So I've seen ladder actually adapt pretty well to Gatr; it usually sustains damage while setting up or as they send in their (not hard) counter, which means a variety of Scarfers can proceed to pick it off; although this does mean Gatr still gets a kill even in the worst case scenario which kind of speaks volumes. Balance is most threatened by Dragon Dance, but offense can manage to power through Gatr before it snags too many kills while defensive teams can wear down Gatr before it rips their whole team apart. Well, have I the treat for you...


Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Agility
- Waterfall
- Ice Punch

Fucking Dual Dance Gatr son. Now you can choose whether to crush slower teams to dust with SD LO SF boosted attacks (like Mawile, but stronger and faster @3@), or simply speed through offensive teams with Agility regardless of Scarfers. I kept the same EV spread as the previous time (outspeeds Scarf Rotom after +2), although if you really want you can bump its speed up a little because I have seen Scarf Electivires being used @_@, or you can max Speed to outrun Scarf Scyther, likely the fastest Scarfer you'll see.

Here are calcs showcasing SD's destructive power and Agility not needing an Attack boost to tear through offense (easily KOing the Scarfers that checked DD).
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 330-390 (88.2 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO, guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 227-268 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 333-394 (76.9 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 374-441 (102.7 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Mantine: 259-305 (77.7 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 231-273 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 421-497 (106.8 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sawk: 265-313 (90.7 - 107.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom: 259-305 (107 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-S: 250-294 (103.7 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lilligant: 333-393 (118.5 - 139.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 346-408 (106.7 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Dual Dance Gatr can make fantastic use of hazard support to just ruin lives. Balance seems to be the more common playstyle right now so DD is likely still better in this meta, but this is an option Gatr has to just shit on other playstyles, so watch out.
 
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Deej Dy

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Power increase of even that amount is not enough to quickban. Imo the centralization gatr now puts on teams is a much more major element, defensive mons are now horrible answers to gatr because they either cannot live the hit anymore, or cannot Ohko back, but then again its bulk never changed so its the increase in power that made the bulk look better. SD is more matchup dependent then DD is but it completely ruins stall, and can catch one of the few revenge killers in scarf rotom after Sr with aqua jet at +2 iirc.But I am all for a suspect, not a quick ban on the grounds of giving the meta time and the rather transparency it yields.
I don't understand your argument. You agree it is Overpowering and Overcentralizing and is in every way better than the old SD set (for future reference the SD set was terrible against stall (Ferroseed/Gourgiest/Weezing/vileplume/etc ruined it). The new open slot and instant power boost allow gatr to now decimate its limited number of old checks. It even has options as a special attacker too to kill its physical "counters"

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 286-338 (80.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 265-312 (90.7 - 106.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO


How does this not a deserve a quickban? I think you are making assumptions rather than testing these theories out, and the claim that the old SD set "ruined stall" makes that much more plausible.
I also don't understand your Rotom argument either. It can kill with a +2 Aqua jet yeah, but cant DD Gatr just sub or attack on the switch and kill it as well?
Going to further reiterate that this mon is not in anyway beneficial to the tier at the moment. I'm sure Teddeh, QOL, or anyone who uses balance,stall, or semi-stall will agree with this. Maybe not HJAD cause he spams rain too much.
 
I don't understand your argument. You agree it is Overpowering and Overcentralizing and is in every way better than the old SD set (for future reference the SD set was terrible against stall (Ferroseed/Gourgiest/Weezing/vileplume/etc ruined it). The new open slot and instant power boost allow gatr to now decimate its limited number of old checks. It even has options as a special attacker too to kill its physical "counters"

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 286-338 (80.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 265-312 (90.7 - 106.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO


How does this not a deserve a quickban? I think you are making assumptions rather than testing these theories out, and the claim that the old SD set "ruined stall" makes that much more plausible.
I also don't understand your Rotom argument either. It can kill with a +2 Aqua jet yeah, but cant DD Gatr just sub or attack on the switch and kill it as well?
Going to further reiterate that this mon is not in anyway beneficial to the tier at the moment. I'm sure Teddeh, QOL, or anyone who uses balance,stall, or semi-stall will agree with this. Maybe not HJAD cause he spams rain too much.
Never said old SD ruined stall but I am typing on phone so I might've mistyped, sorry. I never really finished the post back there for some reason so let me just get a redo lol. While gatr has no counters anymore it has a decent amount of checks and is rather prone to being worn down by hazards and getting hit on the set up turn. While having to sack/risk a mon to save the game may seem unhealthy but its just like wallbreakers, only difference is it has access to +1 speed alongside its attack boost, of a special set. I would compare it to gen 5 samurwott but that doesn't do it justice as I want it suspected. It simply is a matter of still not garnering those KOs as easily as people make it out to be or it being revenge prone.
 
So, uh, March quickrises apparently took Steelix, Virizion, and Camerupt from us.... Didn't know quickrises/falls were happening this month
 
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