Metagame np: Stage 4 - Celebration (Feraligatr Banned)

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Deej Dy

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I find it highly unlikely we will find a mega Audino suspect, I think the candidates so far for suspect tests are-

Most Likely: Mega-Rupt, Typhlosion
Have a Chance: Malamar, Smash Pass
Not suspect Worthy: Mega-Audino

The reason for Audino being it is easily beaten by CM users with Psyshock, its underwelming Ability in Healer , the unreliability of relying on rest-talk rolls and the multiple turns it needs to setup in order to be a threat.
 
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I would really like to see a Malamar suspect come through as well. I've said for awhile I think it's a sleeper op mon that people really haven't picked up on yet. I'd rather we suspect it Before it becomes a wide-spread problem, rather then later.
 

QueenOfLuvdiscs

Tier 3 Audino sub
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I don't really think that mega-audino warrants a suspect, I think we're just suspecting for the hell of it at this point :L I would however agree with a smashpass suspect, it's still stupid.
I'd also nominate malamar for a suspect test. If any of you have used this mon, it's broken and stupidly good, requiring a lot of team prep and when quad super effective moves can barely do 50% and the checks that people use for this mon are still being beaten 99% of the time.
Scenarios for each:
Superpower on switch, 2 hit ko with knock, very high chances to kill if rocks are up.
0 SpA Musharna Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 200-236 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 4 Atk Malamar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 236-278 (54.5 - 64.2%)
+1 4 Atk Malamar Knock Off vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 158-188 (36.4 - 43.4%)

Setup fodder right here.
0 SpA Mega Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 126-150 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Togetic Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 126-150 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not to mention mawile + granbull gives a +1 attack if it switches in (the defensive sets that is)

Scyther has to avoid rocks + the prediction of knock off (unless bulky evio which i haven't seen in a long time)
4 Atk Malamar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scyther: 118-139 (41.9 - 49.4%)
252 Atk Scyther U-turn vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 232-276 (61.7 - 73.4%)

These are all checks and "counters" that are ran for malamar and they are still being beaten a lot of the time... it's very easy to aquire boosts so the fact that they have to be careful when switching in this pokemon, it's ridiculous. And this pokemon is usually alright, but a fucking pain to revenge kill since if you weaken it enough, you got to make sure it can't rest. If rest isn't an option and its still weakened, there's always healing wish for it to have sweeping potential throughout the entire match. Can't exactly say it isn't centralizing since every team runs signal beam now in order to cope and if you don't you get 6-0'd. There are even occasions where teams have 2-3 checks and counters with mons running signal beam and dazzling gleam and it can still cope.
This pokemon is probably the most centralizing and ban-worthy pokemon we have right now in my current opinion, it's just not been said yet.
ah yes, togetic is deffo setup fodder for malamar...
+6 4 Atk Malamar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 228+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 106-126 (33.8 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

it can heal more with roost than +6 Knock Off is doing to it and togetic has a good chance to 3hko it back.
32 SpA Togetic Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 132-156 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- 67.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

this is also why you run some investment in spatk on mega audino / togetic so you can actually hit it back, not so much for togetic's sake but it is for megadino so you can actually get a much better chance to 3hko.

I also liked how you calced a neutral knock off on scyther, then calced a scyther's u-turn whilst it is at +2, like it just magically gained +2.

Malamar is a good mon, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying that your arguments have flaws that really don't show why malamar should be suspected.
 
sigh alright so people want a malamar suspect for reasons that are beyond me but im gonna try and debunk what I see and see if I can change anyone's mind, and even though the NU council promised more open suspecting this shit seems completely outrageous to me. Teddeh, I respect you as a player and I respect your opinion but I think you might be a tad biased in this situation as it fares well against your preferred playstyle which is fat balance. What you overlooked is that Malamar needs room to breathe and start boosting before it can really start tearing through teams. Malamar can sometimes even be considered a Liability to have on one's team if they are playing against a really offensive team because offensive teams don't give it any room to breathe and try and get a sweep going. Volt-turn is really good right now and Malamar is also kinda shit against those kinds of teams. Stall and more defensive teams often use mons like Togetic and Mega Audino which are solid answers to Malamar.

0 SpA Musharna Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 200-236 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 4 Atk Malamar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 236-278 (54.5 - 64.2%)
+1 4 Atk Malamar Knock Off vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 158-188 (36.4 - 43.4%)
This doesn't seem like a logical scenario because the Musharna user can just click moonlight until its at a reasonable amount of HP where it will proceed to 2HKO the malamar user. Any scenario in which the Musharna loses is just based on poor play from the Musharna user and not showing how "broken" malamar is.

Setup fodder right here.
0 SpA Mega Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 126-150 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Togetic Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 126-150 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not to mention mawile + granbull gives a +1 attack if it switches in (the defensive sets that is)
wait.
wait.
wait.
are you honestly trying to suggest to me, that Malamar beats Togetic and Mega Audino and both should be considered set-up fodder. you seem to forget that Malamar only has 8 Superpowers and as Queen suggested you can run a bit of SpAtk if you need it. The funny thing is you dont need it most malamars are going to be running a bit of speed, and you forgot Stealth Rock as a part of the calc. Here's what it looks like with Rocks up.

0 SpA Togetic Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 126-150 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Mega Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 126-150 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Offensive Mawile also has a p decent chance to OHKO +1 Malamar after rocks straight up without any boosts which makes it a great offensive check on bulkier teams as well.

Can't exactly say it isn't centralizing since every team runs signal beam now in order to cope and if you don't you get 6-0'd. There are even occasions where teams have 2-3 checks and counters with mons running signal beam and dazzling gleam and it can still cope.
This pokemon is probably the most centralizing and ban-worthy pokemon we have right now in my current opinion, it's just not been said yet.
Uhh yeah you actually can say it isn't centralizing because people are only changing 1 move on a moveset that allows you to beat said unstoppable incredibly centralizing threat. It's not like signal beam is an extremely awful or obscure move that nobody would have run before the emergence of Malamar as well, it's a good way to hit Dark types on CM Psychics while also being able to hit opposing psychic types unlike Gleam. Sure it was less popular, but by no means a bad option. If all it takes is for me to run Signal Beam over another move on a mon that actually benefits from signal beam then I'll gladly do it. Its not like we're being forced to run specific counters like Torterra or Mantine (in regards to steelix) on teams to keep from being 6-0'd out of the lead slot.

I would really like to see a Malamar suspect come through as well. I've said for awhile I think it's a sleeper op mon that people really haven't picked up on yet. I'd rather we suspect it Before it becomes a wide-spread problem, rather then later.
How can malamar gain any more notoriety than it already has? How can it become a how you say wide-spread problem if the meta has already adapted (see above) to it in a way which makes it not broken at all.

Thats one thing i'm gonna talk about to end this giant shitstorm of a post is that YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO PREPARE FOR TOP THREATS IN A META WHEN BUILDING A TEAM, DONT JUST BLAME IT ON "CENTRALIZATION". If i'm building a team and I see, "oh shit I have like no answers for Malamar" I'll go back and i'll fucking adjust the team so that I have a way to beat it. If you think that because you don't have a plan to beat top threats like Malamar or Typhlosion or Mega Camerupt, on your team it makes them "centralizing", maybe you should just get out of your fantasy land and learn that metas form around certain mons, THERE IS NO WAY AROUND THAT. With all of the power creep in recent generations, there is no perfectly balanced meta where everything is as equally threatening as the next and you can just throw a team together with decent offensive and defensive synergy and go to town. This meta is as fun and balanced as we've had in ages, all sorts of playstyles are viable and pretty much anything can work, provided that you prepare for the top threats. The sooner that everyone gets this through their head, the sooner that we can get back to playing a children's game competitively.
 
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Deej Dy

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To the Teddeh arguers, Mala beats Togetic 1v1 most of time barring a timely Crit (as Malamar has lefties and speed while Togetic doesn't, don't forget to calc after eviolite is knocked off too) or special EVs made to face Malamar (as QOL posted).
I've done it several times and its not too difficult, although it takes time and PP.

That being said... you need other counters besides Scyther and Togetic, slow and derpy Quagsire is the only other one that comes to mind in this fast paced meta. I would agree with a suspect, even if 46 spc attack 220 toge or whatever beats it most of the time.
 
You can also just run Gourgeist-Super which safely switches into Malamar and straight up laughs at it. There are definitely some pretty good options to deal with it on bulky teams and more offensive teams generally don't have much trouble with Malamar at all. There's like a gajilion checks as well if you play your cards right, I don't really think it's in the same league as Typhlosion as far as centralization and/or brokenness are concerned. It's a huge threat to bulky teams but they seem to have enough options to adapt for the time being.
 
It doesn't beat togetic if it is nasty plot togetic, which is still a thing right? Mala wont even get to +3 if it's nasty plot, let alone +6. Also just to point out, depending on togetic's moveset, mala will always lose the pp war vs togetic if it has a total pp of 72 or higher.

Also the fact that you even have to waste all of your pp just to beat togetic means togetic as just done its job of weakening malamar so a strong special attacker can just bop it.
 

QueenOfLuvdiscs

Tier 3 Audino sub
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
To the Teddeh arguers, Mala beats Togetic 1v1 most of time barring a timely Crit (as Malamar has lefties and speed while Togetic doesn't, don't forget to calc after eviolite is knocked off too) or special EVs made to face Malamar (as QOL posted).
I've done it several times and its not too difficult, although it takes time and PP.
I wouldn't call adding some SpA so you get better rolls 'special EVs'. Also, why does it matter about Eviolite being Knocked Off? Knock Off does the same amount of damage and Superpower does marginally more, which you only have 8 of anyways, so it really doesn't matter.

In short, Togetic will always win 1v1 unless you are super unlucky and always get min rolls, even with it outspeeding and Resting.
 
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Finchinator

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Haven't made too substantial of a post since before last suspect and I'm trying to procrastinate work right now, so figured this is as good a time as ever to post being that there is a lot of excitement and debate brewing over what people believe to be the best line of action (suspect) for ORAS NU's future.

The current state of the NU metagame is still unbalanced, in my opinion. It is true that the last suspects' outcome propelled NU from being entrenched in an abyss filled with limitations in building, due to some of the controversial threats, to an improved state, but I think there's a bit more to be done before a so-called "balance" is reached (I'd say feel free to disagree with this assessment of the metagame, but it appears as if the heavy majority of posters want a suspect of some sort, so odds are the general consensus is that another suspect should occur).

When anyone with a sufficient amount of experience in NU plays, they can undoubtedly come to the conclusion that there isn't one pokemon that is as dominant and consistently effective as something like Mega-Steelix was in the past, nor is anything as conveniently uncounterable by most things as Heliolisk was. This makes things a bit more challenging as there's no "obvious" choice for a potential suspect, but something doesn't need to be blatantly overpowered (like Heliolisk was, imo) or too good not to use on many teams (like Mega Steelix was, imo) to be suspect worthy. A pokemon that simply lacks a "fair amount" of counters or is dominating the tier to a lesser extent can still be deemed banworthy if people believe it is harmful to the state of the tier and can justifiably advocate it's suspect/ban. With this being said, the logical question that comes to mind is: what pokemon lacks a "fair amount" of counters or is dominating the tier to some extent?

Well, in my opinion, the generalized "specially offensive fire type" group comes to mind as you need to go out of your way to cater to these pokemon on every team (which makes things like AV Hariyama far more common than it otherwise would be on offense/balanced and Mantine more common in general). This brings another question to mind: how can one differentiate the normal, expected use of checks and counters to threats that are common in the metagame from unreasonable, being forced to go out of your way use of checks and counters to threats that are common? It's hard to put this in words, so I'll use an example or two.

The way I see it, there are a lot of Calm Mind Psychic type pokemon in NU (Uxie, Musharna, Xatu, etc.) and generally, they are checked and countered by the same things (barring an offensive Uxie with a funky coverage move or something similar to this). Because of this, you usually only have to bring one "stop" (Eviolite SD Sneasel with hazard removal (takes Signal Beams and can set up a countersweep), Liepard (more of an offensive answer), Klinklang (tanks anything and can set up a countersweep), etc.) to these pokemon and you're usually able to handle them without too much trouble. This is how things normally go - you don't have to compromise too much in your team to keep things in check and you're able to run offense without being blatantly weak to something or forced to run a very specific pokemon/set.

Another common sight in NU is Specially Offensive Fire types (Typhlosion, Mega-Camerupt, Magmortar, Pyroar, and (lol) Simisear in a rough order of viability and effectiveness). While for the aforementioned Psychics, you only needed to really carry one pokemon to keep them in check, this is rarely the case for fires; in fact, I'd say that it's an unwritten rule of NU teambuilding to carry multiple fire resists / checks unless you have one the very few full-stops to most of the fires and a lot of priority of pressure being applied on fire types conssitently, which is still a risky way to go. While there are plenty of individual pokemon who can claim to check Typhlosion (AV Hariyama, SDef Seismitoad, Bulkyish Mega Camerupt, Bulky SR Rhydon, Lanturn, Prinplup, Mantine, etc.) or Mega Camerupt (AV Hariyama, SDef Seismitoad, Prinplup, Mantine, Pelipper, etc.), a majority of them either lack survivability/recovery, cannot check all of the fires (or even multiple), don't fit onto offensive teams, and/or have other crippling flaws which make dealing with fire types a major limitation on teambuilding due to their nature in NU and the nature of their checks/counters, too. With this being said, unlike the compared Psychics, something could be done to weaken this and help free teambuilding and the tier in general IF (!!!) there is a fire type or multiple fire types that stand out as specifically hard to deal with and there can be a case made to suspect/ban them. This leads to the third question: are there fire types in NU that are suspect or ban worthy?


After going through the examples in the hide tags and thinking about the meta, the two most dominant fire types (by far) and (not coincidentally) the two most controversial pokemon in general, imo, are Typhlosion and Mega-Camerupt.

Typhlosion is generally seen running a Specs or Scarf set. The former is potent beyond belief, 2hko'ing pretty much the entire unresisted metagame and doing a fair chunk to most resists, too. The latter (scarf) set is still effective and can be seen on many teams, but it is a bit easier to take on and doesn't have the ability to eventually overpower opposing threats without support and being forced out multiple times in the process of doing so. Taking this into consideration, I'll focus more on the Specs set and how it can potentially be seen as a bit too strong for the tier as it's really the only thing that may break Typhlosion. It generally runs Eruption, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, and either Hidden Power Grass or Extrasensory (depends on team, but I believe HP Grass is more common and hits more pokemon). Most of the time, however, it is just spamming Eruption if it's near full and Fire Blast otherwise as these specs boosted STAB attacks do a ton. Normal stops to offensive fire types like Seismitoad, non-rest Lanturn, Prinplup, Rhydon, Hariyama and non-rest Mantine are easily worn down to the point that they can no longer stop Typhlosion after taking a hit or two, leading to the notion that you need multiple fire checks (which I touched on in the hide tags) and the fact that this thing is arguably overpowered. With this being said, Typhlosion isn't the easiest thing to switch in and it is weak to stealth rock, so it does have cons and doesn't stand out too much as being blatantly broken.

Note: the spreads were mostly taken from the ps calc as I'm not an avid user of pokemon such as Lanturn or Prinplup and you have to take into consideration the fact that these pokemon are vulnerable to all hazard / status / other residual damage and lack recovery outside of leftovers

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 191-225 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Seismitoad: 140-165 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 69.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 144-170 (35.9 - 42.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Lanturn: 204-240 (46.3 - 54.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Prinplup: 135-159 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Prinplup: 93-109 (28 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Mantine: 102-121 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 137-162 (33 - 39.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Hariyama: 136-162 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 90.8% chance to 3HKO [the spread I used for this has less SDef than I usually put for some reason, so should do a few % less normally]

Not going to include calcs of coverage moves because that requires Typhlosion to predict the opponent's switch-in perfectly and this is mainly meant to show the power of spamming STAB Eruption and how these pokemon can't switch in multiple time given their lack of survivability and Typh's strength.


Mega-Camerupt, on the other hand, isn't able to abuse fast, specs boosted attacks, but still deals a lot of damage off its sky-high special attack and with Sheer Force as its ability when mega evolved. The lack of speed and poor defensive typing can come back to hurt Mega Camerupt, but good bulk helps remedy this, so this isn't too backbreaking of a con, but it's still worth noting. Anyway, checks and counters to Camerupt are sparse, moreso than Typhlosion I'd say, but it is easier to revenge, soft-check, or at least force out Camerupt due to its lack of speed. The best answers are Mantine, Hariyama, Archeops, and Pelipper, I'd say, give or take a pokemon or two. It threatens so many teams off-the-bat upon switching in, it's not too hard to get in thanks to its bulk, and like Typhlosion, it can wear down Hariyama / non-rest Mantine / others pretty easily, but they at least have the ability to outpace and always force Camel out assuming they can pressure it offensively. Again, I'll post some relevant calcs.

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 212 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 172-204 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Mantine: 88-104 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 16.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 164 Def Mantine: 180-212 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery [Camerupt is a bit bulkier and easier to predict with than Typhlosion because it isn't locking into a move, so I'll post this despite it being hard to nail Mantine much and Rock Slide not being a staple on Mega Camerupt - it's still a solid move on it]
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archeops: 196-231 (67.3 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 184-217 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 268-316 (66.8 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Seismitoad: 196-232 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


As you can see, Camel does quite a bit of damage and is hard to counter although it can be checked when you have the appropriate pokemon and play it properly. I'd say it's a bit less suspect worthy than Typh by virtue of it having so low speed, but I'd like to see them both suspected and there's nothing to lose from doing that (I wouldn't outright say I'm pro-ban on either, I'd be on the fence and interested to see what people have to say).

Just to briefly touch on my views on other pokemon people have brought up, Mega-Audino is a bit too passive with the Restalk and Wishtect variants while it's still susceptible to being set-up on or even broken through by some of the stronger attackers out there. The bulk and utility it has is great, but it's not broken in any sense, just a very solid defensive mega pokemon. Malamar is a real menace for unprepared passive or even balanced teams, but it's a bit too slow and reliant on the SDef Restalk set to be as consistently effective as something broken would be, imo, as it's not too hard to check/counter (see: 4x bug weakness, lack of physical bulk before contrary boosts, lack of power before contrary boosts, and not enough special bulk to tank multiple hits from the stronger attackers out there). Archeops is actually a really good pokemon in current NU, but it's so frail, weak to rocks, and unable to stay out of defiast in the long term while it does have at least a couple counters and can be dealt with by offensive teams with priority, not letting it ever switch-in safely, and potentially a ground type SR user that has the physical bulk to check it, so I'd say it's not worth suspecting or banning, too. I think that's everything, but could be missing something.

oh and i know i wrote way too much, lol sorry
 

Disjunction

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um, hi, I don't know if my input is worth anything right now, but I'm certainly not going to degrade into shit talking if that will make my post anymore readable for everyone else.

While I respect both sides of the argument, I'm definitely more in favor of not suspecting Malamar right now. I understand the argument in that it forces you to maybe run a more stifling coverage move or choose from a relatively select pool of mons, but it is not the most centralizing threat right now. This is definitely a debate worth having in the future, but I think in today's meta, Malamar needs very minimal team support to handle correctly. The extent at which you have to handle Malamar is typically just a moveslot on a Pokemon you probably have already or, at worst, dedicate one slot using a Pokemon that already has its uses. At best, your team just naturally pressures Malamar very well because it has a lot of physically oriented threats that prevent it from setting up. You don't need to dedicate as much to a team for Malamar as you would to, say, Fire Spam. So yes, I don't agree with adding Malamar to the suspect list right now because there seem to be way bigger fish to fry.

I'm sure a bunch of people here and after me will start listing a bunch of calcs and arguments that I really don't have time to make myself because my land lord is here. Really, just, speaking personally here, I don't like reading arguments from anyone where people are talking shit to each other, whether you respect their opinion or not. Talking down on someone (and especially responding to someone and talking to them in a hostile manner) does not make me want to respond to your argument or agree with you anymore than I would if you had simply placed your arguments in an objective tone. I'm way down to have this little debate further down the line in a sensible manner, because it's certainly a debate with its own merits, but I don't believe we should be having it now and especially not in the tone we're promoting. But, hey, I'm not a mod or anything and I probably sound very patronizing right now, too, so feel free to ignore me.
 
OK this is a shitstorm. I'm going to be cleaning this up soon, any posts that have personal attacks of any kind will be deleted and infracted, so fix it yourself if you want to be spared. The NU staff is currently discussing what should be on the next suspect slate, so posting stupid aggressive arguments here will not help anyone.
 
The real problem with a Malamar suspect is that we still have:

- Archeops
- Gorebyss
- Huntail
- Jynx
- Liepard
- Lilligant
- Mega Audino
- Mega Camerupt
- Mesprit
- Typhlosion
- Uxie
- Vivillon
- Xatu
- Barboach

which are all more "suspect-worthy" than Malamar

I don't even prepare for Malamar half the time, and I'm still rarely weak to it. When I find myself weak to it, I just slap Signal Beam on my Psychic-type, and suddenly I'm not weak to it anymore. And yes, Togetic does beat it. And so does Shelmet. :-)
 
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I disagree with a Malamar suspect.

Certainly, Malamar is good, yeah, and it craps on a ton of teams which is an issue. However, as said before, just slap Signal Beam on any hard-hitting special attacker and it's done for. Dazzling Gleam is often too weak (either uninvested, and if invested it's not a STAB move), and we don't have Moonblast users, but Signal Beam users we have plenty of. Those are mostly Psychic-types, but some Electric-types can carry Signal Beam as well.
On the physical side there is a problem though - the number of checks is annoyingly low thanks to Superpower's def boosts, but...

252+ Atk Leavanny X-Scissor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 364-432 (96.8 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO ; Life Orb has 100% to OHKO, even if Leavanny is Jolly. Leavanny is actually a full-on counter to Malamar, as long as you can keep hazards from your side of the field (to avoid Scarf Night Slash/Knock Off from 2HKO'ing).
Sawsbuck's and Rapidash's Megahorn OHKO +1 Malamar provided they have a Life Orb (even at Jolly nature), but neither of them can switch in.

But I see Malamar more as a top-threat you need to prepare for, much like you need to prepare for CM Psychics, Gurdurr and Gourgeist, but it isn't that troublesome to deal with. It's not like Signal Beam (the main way of dealing with it) is useless for other things than Malamar, either, because it hits various crucial threats pretty hard.


Atm, I am far more concerned about the Mega's, Typh, and SmashPass at this moment than I am about Malamar, but I agree that Malamar is much harder to prepare for with the other bullshit in the tier. It's just impossible to prepare for all the broken threats at once while still being creative (oddly, Gatr didn't even strain teambuilding that much because the things that kept Gatr in check are needed for other things).
 
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my main typhlosion counter is typhlosion

kill it with fire

wait no you can't jk

my issue with blaze is better supporters is that honestly, who cares that your weakened fire blast is weaker? the sheer relief that flash fire typhlosion gives to the team using typhlosion is ridiculous. one of my primary deterrents to using it in the past was that it made my teams really fire weak (mainly other typhlosion lol) and i didn't really like the strain accommodating for it gave me. not anymore!!! teams that i wanted to use typhlosion on no longer require hariyama or whatever to solely counter typhlosion since now it does that itself. that's pretty stupid. it now has zero opportunity cost and imo that's what is super broken about it.
 
I use to think Malamar was insanely broken when it just got knock off and not every team runs bug moves, now I have other opinions

What's good about Malmar
Malamar is a very good mon in NU, it has stab knock off and a move than can boost it's stats and do a decent amount of damage at the same time, it has relatively good bulk and decent aattack stat. It is also great as it can set up on many mons in the tier and rest + sleep talk is always good if lucky. And 73 speed is very nice to have as it will outspeed most bulky things. It also can be covered very easily with team mates than can cover it's weaknesses

What's bad about Malamar
Now yes it is very good but it has major flaws which prevent it in my opinion from being worthy of a suspect. First (and most obvious) on the list is it's 4x weakness to bug. A surpising amount of pokemon in the tier can learn signal beam which either OHKO it, or severely damage it to prevent a sweep. Another 'flaw' is it is an easy mon to wear down. Strong Physical Attackers can 2HKO it even at +1/+2 and typhlosion and camerupt (who are insanely common) can beat it 1v1 unless you let it get to many boosts.

Overall I think; Yes malamar is an very good mon in NU but it has two flaws that really stop it from being suspect worthy.

Also on another note, Hollywood is correct in saying we should suspect barboach,
this is a major threat to the tier and we should get rid of it post haste.
 
Suspecting malamar alongside typh and mega rupt seems like a bad idea anyway due to it giving a bad baseline and would probably encourage more people to ban the other suspects due to people comparing how threatening typh and mega rupt are as a opposed to a mon like malamar. Mont made a similar point about m audino and put it much better so I ll just quote that.

Putting it alongside the other two would make people say, "oh, this is no where near as bad it shouldn't leave and the other two should."
 
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Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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my main typhlosion counter is typhlosion

kill it with fire

wait no you can't jk

my issue with blaze is better supporters is that honestly, who cares that your weakened fire blast is weaker? the sheer relief that flash fire typhlosion gives to the team using typhlosion is ridiculous. one of my primary deterrents to using it in the past was that it made my teams really fire weak (mainly other typhlosion lol) and i didn't really like the strain accommodating for it gave me. not anymore!!! teams that i wanted to use typhlosion on no longer require hariyama or whatever to solely counter typhlosion since now it does that itself. that's pretty stupid. it now has zero opportunity cost and imo that's what is super broken about it.
So I think that overall Blaze is probably the superior ability solely for the fact that Typhlosion can't do much outside of Fire-spam. Its coverage moves are quite weak and it heavily relies on the destruction it causes from Eruption and then the even more powerful Blaze Fire Blast.

--

So you've switched in your Typhlosion on a predicted Fire-move, the opponent goes for it...SUCCESS!! You've predicted and acquired the Flash Fire Boost.....now what? Lets think about it. Out of all the relevant types in NU there are 7 of them. 4 of which have access to Flash Fire, 1 commonly runs an Assault Vest (Magmortar), Pyroar, and then Mega-Camerupt. To get a OHKO on Pyroar you need to predict a Fire-type move, have Stealth Rock up, and have taken no damage yourself, every other Pokemon doesn't die from a Flash Fire boosted Eruption from Full Health. Against Flash Fire users, your strongest option of coverage is to run Extrasensory to hit Hariyama and to provide neutral coverage against Flash Fire users. To illustrate this point I have calcs below (the +1 is to show the boost from Flash Fire as there isn't an option on the calc):
+1 252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pyroar: 228-268 (72.8 - 85.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pyroar: 108-128 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Typhlosion: 147-174 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
(Lets assume Typh has Flash Fire)

+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega-Camerupt: 233-274 (67.7 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega-Camerupt: 111-131 (32.2 - 38%) -- 95.9% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magmortar: 54-64 (17 - 20.1%) -- possible 5HKO
+1 252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magmortar: 113-133 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flareon: 107-126 (39.4 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales: 116-137 (40.4 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatmor: 163-192 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Heatmor lol)

So Extrasensory is easily exploitable if you're locked into it and you can't risk getting into a struggle war against Flash Fire users with Fire-type moves. So what are you to do? Well I give you:


Typhlosion @ Charcoal
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Extrasensory / Hidden Power Grass / (w/e coverage move you wanna run doesn't really matter lol)

You still have your Fire-type moves boosted decently with Charcoal and to illustrate how well this works, here is a list of calcs against those relevant Pokemon, unfortunately Mega-rupt doesn't take to much, but lets be real here...who in their right mind switches in a Typhlosion in on a Mega Camerupt?

0 Atk Typhlosion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Typhlosion: 152-180 (51.1 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Typhlosion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pyroar: 162-192 (51.7 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Typhlosion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 158-188 (55 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Typhlosion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega-Camerupt: 124-148 (36 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Typhlosion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flareon: 188-222 (69.3 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Typhlosion Earthquake vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 172-204 (54.2 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Typhlosion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Heatmor: 194-230 (62.3 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
The best way to avoid getting swept by Typhlosion isn't by switching into its eruption safely. It's putting it in a position where it can't spam its fire type moves. The pressure of a flash fire Typhlosion does the same thing as a flash fire Ninetales--it forces Typhlosion to use a non fire type coverage move. Flash fire Typhlosion therefore applies that pressure and lets you do everything your Typhlosion was doing before. Flash fire is infinitely superior to blaze.
 
The thing is that Typhlosion can't stay at full health forever.

The strategy with Blaze Typhlosion is simple: spam Eruption at full health, and spam your boosted Fire Blast at low health.

I'd personally rather have the boosted Fire Blast, simply because Typhlosion won't live forever regardless. When it's about to faint, a boosted Fire Blast is far more useful than Flash Fire.

And even if with Blaze, it's still putting pressure on your opponent, because they don't know which ability it has.
 

Punchshroom

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The best way to avoid getting swept by Typhlosion isn't by switching into its eruption safely. It's putting it in a position where it can't spam its fire type moves. The pressure of a flash fire Typhlosion does the same thing as a flash fire Ninetales--it forces Typhlosion to use a non fire type coverage move. Flash fire Typhlosion therefore applies that pressure and lets you do everything your Typhlosion was doing before. Flash fire is infinitely superior to blaze.
I wouldn't say infinitely superior. Flash Fire is good at allowing Typhlosion to provide some defensive utility combined with some extra offensive potential, but Blaze is good for Typhlosions that still focus on tearing down opponents, as Blaze allows Typhlosion to access its power increase more easily / willingly than Flash Fire would (aka a significant reason people brought up Typh for suspect in the first place).

The way I see it, Flash Fire made Typhlosion even more centralising than before, but I don't think I can say it has gotten more outright broken.

Typh was initially brought up for a suspect for its Eruptions and Blaze Fire Blasts, letting it hit for massive damage regardless of whether it is healthy or greatly worn down. This made it a much more prominent threat than the other Fire-types in the meta, and the fact that its insane damage did not wane throughout most points of the game (Typh's damage output is minimum at ~mid range) made it trickier to play around; it's not helped that most of its counters did not have reliable recovery and many still risk being 3HKOed by Typh's most spammable move(s).

The introduction of Flash Fire Typhlosion gave offensive teams more breathing room against opposing Typhlosions, and has become the new 'worst-case scenario' for a Typhlosion spamming Choice-locked Fire-type moves, aka eating an opposing Typhlosion's boosted Fire attack. On the other hand, suddenly Choicing your Typhlosion isn't the instant go-to move anymore, because the fact that Flash Fire Typhlosions check each other means that there is the very real scenario that two Choiced Typhlosions can just end up Fire moving each other back and forth to no avail, as a result of the defending Typh user simply not having another switch-in to Flash Fire Specs Eruptions (which is why I've been using Charcoal Typh long before Mont brought it up).

That said, non-Choiced Flash Fire Typhlosion ironically dampens on most of the suspect-worthy aspects people bring up about Typhlosion in the first place, as it doesn't seem as immediately overwhelming as other Fire-types in the tier (suddenly it is as comparable as say, Pyroar, as a flat-out offensive threat). People have mentioned that Typh's power limits teambuilding, but now offensive teams can afford a decent Typh check that still carries offensive momentum (I know some people are sick of having to lug Yama around with them wherever they go), while bulkier and balance teams can still handle Typh like they always have (if these teams don't cry out at Mortar, I'd think they can hold their own against Typh :/), especially with the knowledge that not every Typh out there has crazy powerful Specs Eruptions / Blaze Fire Blasts in tow anymore. Yes, I know that Flash Fire Charcoal Fire moves are stronger than Specs boosted Fire moves, but keep in mind that FF Typh's coverage moves don't get boosted so there is still that.

It's this funky dynamic between the Typhlosions themselves that doesn't make it any more broken in my eyes, but who knows? Perhaps it is still suspect-worthy.
 

Disjunction

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Alright gang, I have a nice answer to Mega Crodino here if you're still struggling to find answers for it.


Weezing @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Pain Split
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt

Taunt Weezing is one of the few Taunt abusers in the tier that resists Mega Audino's Fairy STAB. You're able to outspeed it (creep is up to you, of course), shut down its CM and Rest cycle, and pressure it with Sludge Bomb. You also shut down the cleric set, but obviously struggle with the CM three attacks lure set. It should be obvious you lose to a lure, though, right? Definitely a great fit for defensive teams that struggle with the bulky mega fairy.

0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino: 138-164 (33.6 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino: 92-110 (22.4 - 26.8%) -- 29.5% chance to 4HKO

+1 0 SpA Mega Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Weezing: 72-84 (21.5 - 25.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Mega Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Weezing: 48-57 (14.3 - 17%) -- possible 9HKO after Black Sludge recovery
 

soulgazer

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i made a couple of teams with that weezing set during spl (didnt get to use it though..) and imo you want to run a ton of speed so that you can outspeed stuff and prevent hazards etc.

Weezing @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split

that spread lets you outspeed max speed modest eggy and everything below, but you can probably run a bit more since i know some people (including myself) like to creep modest eggy with Garbodor too and im sure there's teams that would want this Weezing to be able to outspeed those.

btw im psure that w/ that speed you can beat Malamar 1v1, might be wrong though. If it doesn't well atleast it deals with Malamar better than the slower one lol
 
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GaryTheGengar

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I think typhlosion is definitely worthy of a suspect. Specs typh 2hkos almost the entire tier with its stab alone which is ridiculous, with finch doing a good job of highlighting its power with the calcs a few post above. charcoal wisp typh is a super neat lure atm that can just smash through shit with people so wary of choiced eruptions, and a wisp can really fuck some of its checks over with residual damage or directly for cases like hariyama. What separates typh from camerupt, a poke that also hits like a fucking truck is its speed. camerupt is outsped by even relatively fast defensive pokes, while typh has a killer base 100 speed thats faster than most of the tier. nigga isnt frail either. if camerupt didn't get shafted with an atk boost with no physical attacks to benefit from sheer force, it could have been a lot better, but as it stands its too frail to much more than checking something based off of its typing (the spdef set is its best one), or firing off bombs and dying after a kill.

On another note, i think its kinda weird that people are calling for malamar to be suspected. its not that bulky and has next to no resistances other than psychic, so it has a difficult time switching in, and can be exploited while resting, especially with gen 6 sleep mechanics. its psychic immune seems great for such a cm infested metagame, but pretty much every psychic type carries signal beam which can easily 2hko the bulkiest malamar coming off some shit thats not that strong, like claydol. Even if it gets one kill, as long as you can chip it down, a strong LO / choice attacker can smack it down, even if it is physical and malamar has accumulated a boost or two. The only issue with malamar is the fact that it can just decimate an unprepared stall team, but thats an issue with teambuilding not the squid because there are multiple viable checks to it.
 
On another note, i think its kinda weird that people are calling for malamar to be suspected. its not that bulky and has next to no resistances other than psychic, so it has a difficult time switching in, and can be exploited while resting, especially with gen 6 sleep mechanics. its psychic immune seems great for such a cm infested metagame, but pretty much every psychic type carries signal beam which can easily 2hko the bulkiest malamar coming off some shit thats not that strong, like claydol. Even if it gets one kill, as long as you can chip it down, a strong LO / choice attacker can smack it down, even if it is physical and malamar has accumulated a boost or two. The only issue with malamar is the fact that it can just decimate an unprepared stall team, but thats an issue with teambuilding not the squid because there are multiple viable checks to it.
I will agree with you Typh post, because that thing is just obnoxious.

However, when it comes to Malamar, it's a bit of a juggle. Yea, it does have absolute garbage when it comes to typing and the lack of resistances it provides, but, so do a lot of mons, the problem with Malamar is the offensive side. That thing is an absolute monster, and it's not difficult at all to set up with. Not only that, it's coverage is actually pretty damn good despite only (usually) being held to 2 moves. It's just so damn easy to break through balanced, bulky offense, and stall teams (two of which are actually quite prominent right now) because of its ability to set up with ease, and ability to rest off any damage done or bothersome status. I mean, yea, it has its downsides, much like all Pokemon, but it is heavily outweighed by how effective of a 'mon it is in general.
 
Keep in mind that even though Malamar doesn't have many resistances, it doesn't have many weaknesses either. Bug and Fairy moves are by no means common, especially in NU. For a pokemon that attempts to sweep by setting up that's a pretty big deal (e.g. Suicune, Multiscale Dragonite). It also has solid all around stats by NU standards. In fact base 92 Atk is pretty frightening in combination with Superpower and STAB Knock Off, which gives flawless neutral coverage barring a few Fairies.

Then there's some other trends that work in Malamars favor, like the mostly physically oriented metagame (up for debate I suppose), the popularity of Psychic-types as special attackers and the general lack of hard counters. I personally approve of physically defensive Crustle with X-Scissor:


Crustle @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Atk / 180 Def
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- X-Scissor
- Stone Edge

76 Atk Crustle X-Scissor vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 204-240 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 4 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Crustle: 105-124 (30.5 - 36%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
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