Metagame np: Stage 4 - Celebration (Feraligatr Banned)

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The difference with heliolisk and every other electric type is that it's immune to scald, hence can switch in no problem and can make people think twice before clicking their water move on defensive mons that have to be run right now if people don't want to lose to shit like mega-steelix. Pair these two together and you have a field day.
I never said anything was broken hollywood , I just said it was good and i could see it getting suspected. And it beats lanturn, since it resists/ is immune to either stabs. And when i said that you need to run bulky things, i meant there's nothing that hard walls it, you're having to use things like musharna, uxie, hariyama, bulky grass types to beat it (it learns signal beam and can easily run hp fire) so where i was going with it apart from the obvious "herp a derp teddehs a fucking moron he has to run a check for a pokemon derp derp derp" but rather a general stand point for that heliolisk has some insane coverage. So lay off with the "No SHIT" and ignore my bad writing skills because I was tired when I wrote that post.
I wasn't just referring to you. I've heard lots of cries about Heliolisk and some about Virizion. My message was directed toward the community in general, though it certainly wasn't a post for you to ignore either.
 
No one uses Specs Heliolisk in NU bcuz Life Orb allows it to actually abuse it's amazing coverage. If you are using Specs, it's obviously nowhere as threatening bcuz it's STABs both can be blocked by a Ground or Electric-type. The reason Heliolisk is good is because it can switch moves, wallbreak as well as provide momentum, so it works on Balance as well as HO really well.
hello? specs is the good set, even more amazing with solar power so u dont kill urself before killing something in return (like if u had life orb). give it some sun support with specs and watch the ko's roll in.

also for anyone else who wants to cry heliolisk is too strong waaa

252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 87-103 (25.5 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

try out some mons before u cry suspect
 

QueenOfLuvdiscs

Tier 3 Audino sub
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when i said that you need to run bulky things, i meant there's nothing that hard walls it, you're having to use things like musharna, uxie, hariyama, bulky grass types to beat it (it learns signal beam and can easily run hp fire) so where i was going with it apart from the obvious "herp a derp teddehs a fucking moron he has to run a check for a pokemon derp derp derp" but rather a general stand point for that heliolisk has some insane coverage.
hello? specs is the good set, even more amazing with solar power so u dont kill urself before killing something in return (like if u had life orb). give it some sun support with specs and watch the ko's roll in.
The Heliolisk Set of Champions:
Heliolisk @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Dry Skin / Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Hyper Voice
- Volt Switch
- Surf
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power Fire
- Signal Beam
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Dark Pulse (edit: cuz spdef rotom-n talk in PS room)

There are obviously gonna be checks to this mon. Right now, the best checks are Lanturn, bulky Grass-types, notably Cradily and Gourgeist, and bulky Dragon-types which can be easily accommodated on a team as well as there being a good couple of mons that outspeed it and can OHKO it. It's certainly shaken up the meta, but it can be stopped pretty easily
 
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The Heliolisk Set of Champions:
Heliolisk @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Dry Skin / Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Hyper Voice
- Volt Switch
- Surf
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power Fire
- Signal Beam
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt

There are obviously gonna be checks to this mon. Right now, the best checks are Lanturn, bulky Grass-types, notably Cradily and Gourgeist, and bulky Dragon-types which can be easily accommodated on a team as well as there being a good couple of mons that outspeed it and can OHKO it. It's certainly shaken up the meta, but it can be stopped pretty easily
Well Cryogonal checks it really well if no focus blast too, it's very very good, potentially suspect test worthy as i said, but i think it can probably be handled. Not to mention that with the new drops such as helio, mega-lix is being contained quite nicely o.o Virizion, quag, helio alll check it really well and it's meaning that it's becoming less popular O: I'm looking forward to seeing how the metagame develops right now ngl.
 

Deej Dy

Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
The Heliolisk Set of Champions:
Heliolisk @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Dry Skin / Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Hyper Voice
- Volt Switch
- Surf
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power Fire
- Signal Beam
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt

There are obviously gonna be checks to this mon. Right now, the best checks are Lanturn, bulky Grass-types, notably Cradily and Gourgeist, and bulky Dragon-types which can be easily accommodated on a team as well as there being a good couple of mons that outspeed it and can OHKO it. It's certainly shaken up the meta, but it can be stopped pretty easily

Please don't use this 1000 moveslots 1000 EVs argument it is truly the worst argument I've seen on these threads and reminds me of the "Pangoro not ban worthy" posts that gave me brain cancer. It excuses using a logical counter argument by exaggerating to the fullest degree. (Not an attack on you QOL, just the tactic)

I personally use specs Helioisk (guess I'm a heretic), and it deals with Lanturn fine, it is not too hard to switch out after doing a solid 45-50% on an obvious switch (and thats spc def lanturn) and maintain momentum. Life orb/e-belt is great too and I've used it a few times, as it can wallbreak Megalix better than the other 3 Rotoms.

I don't think it is Overpowered, I don't think it is walled easily by Lanturn; I think it is a very solid mon that requires prediction like any other and should not be oversimplified.
 


Claydol @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Psyshock
- Ice Beam/ Grass Knot
- Earth Power
- Rapid Spin


So everyone thought this would be a useless drop. And they would be wrong. This could possibly be the best spinner NU has to offer at the moment.

One of the things that people say when calling this mon "bad" is that it can't beat spin blockers.

252+ SpA Claydol Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mismagius: 144-171 (55.1 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Claydol Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom: 118-141 (48.7 - 58.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

Those are the two most common spin blockers in the tier, and they both can't switch into Claydol as they both fail to OHKO Claydol in return.

Well you might ask yourself "Why not use offensive Sandslash? Doesn't it do that same thing?"
And that's a fair question, so let me show you why this set is so amazing!

252+ SpA Claydol Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Steelix: 162-192 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Claydol Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Steelix: 224-266 (63.2 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Claydol Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sandslash: 232-274 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Claydol Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 182-216 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

**Note how all these calcs are done without a Life Orb boost. If you really feel like it, you can put one on there to score some of these OHKOs/ 2HKOs**

And the list goes on. This mon can take on most of the common hazard setters 1v1 in the tier, as well as beating all spin blockers in the tier.

Given the low standards of NU spinners, I think Claydol can claim a top spot among them.
 
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Cased

Banned deucer.
I'd suggest running Grass Knot on Claydol, catching Seismitoad who think they can get a free Scald off after a Spin or if they switch in knowing they could possibly threaten you out. Ice Beam is a cool move and obviously has its merits, hitting incoming Grass-types is nothing to scoff at but Grass Knot does more damage to Rhydon (I assume cbf to calc but it sounds like it does!), So I think that Grass Knot may improve your set a bit more than you think possible. Sir Kay 9 hopefully that sounds good and makes sense, also I'm sure you hit other Claydol pretty hard but I cbf to calc right now. Ice Beam does let you hit Xatu it can roost off that damage and set-up Calm Minds on you, or U-Turn out so although it may seem Ice Beam is an effective way to pressure, Xatu can edge its way around it.

Metagame looks interesting though, Pokemon I see on the rise include Sneasel thanks to its amazing Speed and ability to OHKO both of the new offensive drop-downs in Virizion and Heliolisk, while keeping huge pressure upon Claydol and getting rid of important Leftovers on Quagsire although Swords Dance won't hurt it. Scarf Jynx thanks to its great ability to revenge, only thing holding it back is the Pursuit shenanigans that Sneasel and Liepard can perform although the latter risks a powerful Ice Beam, but Lovely Kiss and Trick are two cool moves to abuse aganist other playstyles. Scarf Scyther for the same reason as Jynx except you do gain momentum and voltturn could definitely make a return with the addition Heliolisk, since the bulky metagame made it a bit difficult to effectively voltturn to wear down teams (fuck you mega steelix), Exeggutor, Gourgeist, and Tangela have defensive capabilities that bone the drop-downs and I'm sure Heliolisk might not run Tbolt on Choiced sets thanks to how strong Hyper Voice is but Exeggutor and Tangela fuck over Virizion pretty well even though it has the ability to run either Taunt or Synthesis, it takes away greatly from coverage so you should be alright. Trick Room playstyle should also be interesting since got some fast offensive drops + a Trick Room setter with access to Explosion and the ability to set and phaze hazards! Stall as well, getting Quagsire patches hope giant holes that were once unable to be covered with the Pokemon in NU.

One Pokemon that got the downside and a possible upside if people want to keep using it would be Rotom-n, it cant revenge either of the new offensive drops, although it resists and has an immunity to Heliolisk STAB, I just don't see Scarf Rotom doing well. Although Wisp Split definitely can be cool, you can definitely burn a Lum off of a Virizion or offensive Pokemon on the switch-in and Mega Steelix never likes a Burn, and Hex can hit it if its resttalk or whenever you burn it. I'll finish this list eventually but some main Pokemon that'll face an unfortunate downfall are
 
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Nice post Cased, and I actually originally was running Grass Knot, but I felt that Ice Beam had more merits to what my team wanted to accomplish over Grass Knot, but both are very viable option that I should have listed as an option. The set I posted was the one I personally use on my team(s). I have edited my post to add it in as an option. Thanks for the input
 

Punchshroom

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I've had a lot of fun with Heliolisk lately: it introduces both a strong Electric-type attacker that the meta lacked for some time, as well as introducing a new speed tier, plus any way to discourage Scald is welcome in the meta :P. Surf + Grass Knot nails pretty much all the Ground-types in the tier, while STAB Hyper Voice catches the other Electric resists (mostly Grass-types and 'Electric-immune ability' Pokemon) for decent damage. That by itself is pretty solid already, but Heliolisk has even more uses on weather teams.

In the Rain, Heliolisk can fire off Thunders and boosted Surfs while Dry Skin overheals Life Orb damage, all while guarding its teammates from the opponent's Rain-boosted Water attacks and offering a speedy attacker outside of Rain; it can even pick off problematic Rain threats such as Seismitoad or Ferroseed with Grass Knot or Focus Blast respectively.

In the Sun, Heliolisk's main appeal would be firing off Specs Solar Power Volt Switches and not take Solar Power damage at the end of the turn, effectively giving you insanely powerful Volt Switches for basically free. Well, free as they come when concerning the tier's Electric absorbers, but between Hyper Voice and Sun boosted Hidden Power Fire (both boosted by Specs and Solar Power), every single Electric-immune Pokemon in NU faces a 2HKO at worst, with those that aren't incredibly bulky getting outright demolished.

Heliolisk is as potent as it is versatile, expect it to make a huge impact in the meta. Also expect weather teams on the rise.

modedit: don't be snippy
 
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Something I've been enjoying in this metagame is scarf Jynx. Scarf Jynx can check Virizion as well as Feraligatr after a dragon dance, which dragon dance is Feraligatr's better set in the current meta. Psyshock hits both the new drops Virizion and Heliolisk on their weaker defense, OHKOing Virizion every time after rocks and also having a small chance to OHKO Heliolisk after rocks (basically after LO and rocks it's a good chance to OHKO, which pretty much every Heliolisk runs LO). You want your moveslots to look something like this:
-Psyshock
-Ice Beam
-Energy Ball
-Lovely Kiss / Trick

Focus Blast is also cool, I guess it lets you check Mega Steelix a little easier, but I wouldn't rely on it. There's not many Steel types in NU, and Ice Beam hits Mega Steelix for neutral anyways so it's not like Mega Steelix is gonna try to switch into an Ice Beam, but it may try to switch into a predicted Psyshock.

252 SpA Jynx Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heliolisk: 201-237 (75.8 - 89.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Jynx Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 314-372 (96.9 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

I think this tier shift is what NU needed to spice some things up. Something I want to try is rocks Mawile, not sure how effective it will be but it seems like it would be fun.
 

QueenOfLuvdiscs

Tier 3 Audino sub
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

In the Sun, Heliolisk's main appeal would be firing off Specs Solar Power Volt Switches and not take Solar Power damage at the end of the turn, effectively giving you insanely powerful Volt Switches for basically free. Well, free as they come when concerning the tier's Electric absorbers, but between Hyper Voice and Sun boosted Hidden Power Fire (both boosted by Specs and Solar Power), every single Electric-immune Pokemon in NU faces a 2HKO at worst, with those that aren't incredibly bulky getting outright demolished.
Even on a sun team, Surf is better than HP Fire bcuz you don't drop your speed and it still OHKOs Mega Camerupt, even in the sun, and Hyper Voice fails to do so marginally

Relevant Calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt in Sun: 372-440 (108.1 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt in Sun: 280-331 (81.3 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

Punchshroom

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Even on a sun team, Surf is better than HP Fire bcuz you don't drop your speed and it still OHKOs Mega Camerupt, even in the sun, and Hyper Voice fails to do so marginally

Relevant Calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt in Sun: 372-440 (108.1 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt in Sun: 280-331 (81.3 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Steelix in Sun: 146-172 (41.2 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Steelix in Sun: 292-344 (82.4 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Surf does 2HKO max HP MLix, but HP Fire makes up for it by OHKOing said MLix.
 

QueenOfLuvdiscs

Tier 3 Audino sub
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Steelix in Sun: 146-172 (41.2 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Surf does 2HKO max HP MLix, but HP Fire makes up for it by OHKOing said MLix.
Why are you dropping a max/max mlix calc? I was talking about MegaRupt, which is more of a threat to Sun than MegaLix is, which is why you should run Surf to just straight OHKO it. Plus, with all that fire coverage on your team anyways, MegaLix isn't gonna be an issue.
 
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Punchshroom

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Why are you dropping a max/max mlix calc? I was talking about MegaRupt, which is more of a threat to Sun than MegaLix is, which is why you should run Surf to just straight OHKO it. Plus, with all that fire coverage on your team anyways, MegaLix isn't gonna be an issue.
I mean a max HP Mega Rupt with no defensive investment doesn't really pose that much of a threat to Sun since it doesn't take Sun's powerful hits well in the first place, while SpD MegaRupt still survives the Surf anyway (and still gets 2HKOed by Hyper Voice). Then again, this is probably stemming from my own teambuilding perspective, because MegaRupt honestly seems easier for Sun to prepare for than MLix since Sun can afford more MegaRupt switch-ins (like Air Balloon Ninetales and Yama) than MLix switch-ins (MLix can start causing issues if they switch into your supportive Sun setter).

That said, Surf is still a viable option for Sun teams with massive MegaRupt problems, and I've toyed with the idea of Grass Knot on Sun Heliolisk to land solid 2HKOes on both of the Mega Ground-types in one attack, as well as utterly demolishing Golurk. We can all agree that Heliolisk can do whatever the hell it wants at this point.
 
super gourgeist looks like a pretty cool mon now. it handles all of the drops really easily, hardwalling specs heliolisk even with a physically defensive spread, walling virizion's STAB and not being weak to any coverage move while sporting massive physical bulk (actually seed bomb deals more to virizion than stone edge does to gourgeist if virizion doesnt hold life orb), obviously mauling quagsire with seed bomb, and lol it even spinblocks claydol. it also walls mega steelix, feraligatr, and some other pretty top pokemon. really fun to use right now

you need a really solid answer to fire types though because it lets them all in for free, which sucks
 
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super gourgeist looks like a pretty cool mon now. it handles all of the drops really easily, hardwalling specs heliolisk even with a physically defensive spread, walling virizion's STAB and not being weak to any coverage move while sporting massive physical bulk (actually seed bomb deals more to virizion than stone edge does to gourgeist if virizion doesnt hold life orb), obviously mauling quagsire with seed bomb, and lol it even spinblocks claydol. it also walls mega steelix, feraligatr, and some other pretty top pokemon. really fun to use right now

you need a really solid answer to fire types though because it lets them all in for free, which sucks
Hidden Power Flying is actually a good coverage option on special Virizon; since it allows it to hit Bugs [Who resist both it's STABs]; other Virizon; and Grass/Poison types; as well as hitting SE on Fighting types; and keeping a 31 IV in Speed. HP Flying gives Calm Mind Viri perfect 3-move coverage outside of things no-one in their right mind would run like Honedge.

Gourgeist beats physical Virizon but it really has to watch out for special variants; since CM Viri can very possibly pack HP Flying.

Also; using Sir Kay's EV spread posted above; and assumeing a standard physically bulky Gourgeist:


252+ SpA Claydol Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 180-214 (48.1 - 57.2%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Claydol Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 180-214 (48.1 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Meanwhile; the slower Geist:
0 Atk Gourgeist-Super Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Claydol: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also Kay mentions the possibility of running Life Orb on that Claydol set; which is a sure 2HKO; while Geist's Seed Bomb still doesn't OHKO:

252+ SpA Life Orb Claydol Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 234-278 (62.5 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Offensive Spin Claydol beats standard Geist. Admittedly it's screwed if it is running Grass Knot, but I'd be more concerned with beating spinblockers than Quagsire with Claydol.

Gourgeist is good, but not a hard counter to Virizon like you suggest, since it loses to Special sets; while it outright loses to Offensive Spin Claydol.
 

QueenOfLuvdiscs

Tier 3 Audino sub
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Spdef SuperGeist is most likely the way to go tbh. I'm currently a spread of 232 hp / 36 def / 240 spdef + bold nature which allows me to wall mlix, malamar and both variants of virizion without any worries :]
 

Disjunction

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Spdef SuperGeist is most likely the way to go tbh. I'm currently a spread of 232 hp / 36 def / 240 spdef + bold nature which allows me to wall mlix, malamar and both variants of virizion without any worries :]
(tagging Realistic Waters because he was the one who gave me the idea)
I'm so excited people are talking about Geist cause it's one of my fave mons to run rn. A mixed spread is definitely the way to go, but I've found it's near impossible to beat both Viriz and Lisk in the same set. On my spread, I opted to prepare more for SD Viriz.


Gourgeist-Super @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Impish Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Seed Bomb
- Synthesis
- Leech Seed

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 148-175 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
You make yourself weaker to HP Ice/Flying Lisk, but it means you aren't in a crisis situation if you miss a Will-O-Wisp. It also has some other notable uses like having a chance at avoiding a 2hko from Liepard's Knock Off.
Run this mon, it's cute and has a lot of wiggle room for bulk investment depending on what you need it to do for your squad.
 
"It has been announced that the Johto Starters are to be distributed this year with their Hidden Abilities. From February 27th 2015 to November 30th 2015, if you access Pokémon Bank, you will receive Meganium, Typhlosion and Feraligatr with their Hidden Abilities of Leaf Guard, Flash Fire and Sheer Force respectively. These are distributed through the Pokémon Link feature nto Pokémon X, Y, Omega Ruby or Alpha Sapphire with a limit of 1 of each per Pokémon Bank"

Get ready for Sheer Force Gator and Flash Fire Typhlosion to wreck this tier
 

Lord Alphose

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Typhlosion is now the #1 Typhlosion counter. pls nerf.

But seriously, gaining an immunity to Fire-type attacks is gonna be huge, as Choice locked Typhlosions will be forced to switch out and something is going to have to take a Flash Fire Eruption. I'm going to start running Flareon and Ninetales on all my teams.

Oh, and how much of an effect will Sheer Force have on Gatr? Like, what potential does this change have in putting Gatr back on top?
 

CanadianWifier

Run Away With Me
Damn, looks like I've been sniped already as a news spreader :)
it is indeed a huge boost for gatr though, welcome back to top tier NU!

I don't actually know how useful Flash Fire will be on Typhlosion. Half of its usefulness comes from Blaze Fire Blasts. I guess time will tell.
 
considering Waterfall and Ice Punch get the lovely boost and no recoil for LO sets (brilliant on bulky mons like Gatr), and seeing as DD Gatr has a much easier time against the drops than SD, it'll probably be back to being the huge threat its always been.

flash fire on typh is cool, but ill probably still run blaze. gotta love those juicy fire blasts when youre low on health

---

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 168-199 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

COME IN ON ME PAL I DARE YA
 
Being a completely newcomer to NU with like no knowledge of the tier other than oh my god Gator is amazing here I love this; would Crunch become viable on Gator at all due to Sheer Force?
 
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