Metagame NP: Stage 8 - Vanilluxe Banned @7

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5gen

jumper
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Written by 5gen
:ss/rotom:


The ZeroUsed metagame is arguably in the most balanced state it has been in recent months, even if it is relatively top-heavy. Among all the threats in the metagame, Rotom is a highly controversial element mainly due to its ability to overwhelm Volt Switch blockers like Ground-types and Lightning Rod users such as Raichu and Manectric. The central argument to make against Rotom is how difficult its Will-O-Wisp+Hex sets are to switch into and how effectively Rotom supports breakers and setup sweepers. What is often seen is that teams must run a passive Pokemon like Stunfisk or risk having Rhydon crippled via Will-O-Wisp to mitigate Rotom's ability to generate momentum and break down teams. But even in these situations, Hex at 130 BP means that Ground-types are easily chipped down. Moreover, with the departure of Audino and Ferroseed in the October tier shifts, Rotom lost two solid defensive checks. This means that defensive counterplay to Rotom is somewhat more limited than before. As such, Rotom is quite difficult to stop and teams typically rely on slow Ground-types or other frail Electric-immune Pokemon to limit Rotom's ability to grab and/or keep momentum.

In addition, Rotom has other sets such as Choice Scarf, Nasty Plot, and Choice Specs that add to its versatility. While none of these sets match the effectiveness of Wisp+Hex and are easier to check, they enable Rotom to make up for its flaws to some degree. With Choice Scarf, Rotom isn't as easily revenge killed and can play around faster threats like Silvally-Dark, Rapidash, and Cinccino. Conversely, Nasty Plot makes up for Rotom's low breaking power but is relatively easy to revenge kill and if it drops Volt Switch, Rotom becomes significantly more difficult to bring in. Choice Specs faces similar issues with Nasty Plot and is considerably more prediction reliant.

The other end of the spectrum is that while Rotom is an excellent pivot and offensive Pokemon, its middling Speed and power and low bulk limit its consistency and make Rotom exploitable. At 309 Speed, Rotom is vulnerable to faster Pokemon like Basculin, Gourgeist-S, Silvally-Dark, Choice Specs Jynx, and so on. It is worth noting that some of these Pokemon benefitted from the October tier shifts and subsequent metagame developments and have been trending. As a result, teams naturally pack Pokemon that can revenge kill non-Choice Scarf Rotom. In addition, Rotom lacks breaking power initially and is not that difficult to check 1v1 or with specially bulky Pokemon such as Clefairy, Throh, Alcremie, etc. Similarly, Rotom's low bulk limits its switch-in opportunities and make it easy to revenge kill via faster Pokemon and priority users such as Choice Band Thwackey, Kangaskhan, and Shiftry.




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5Dots

Chairs
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Reviving this thread:

I feel that post-suspect, hail is certainly on the rise, especially with the banning of Arctovish and the release on Snow Warning:
:sm/vanilluxe:
Vanilluxe @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Hasty Nature
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Aurora Veil / Flash Cannon
- Flash Cannon / Taunt / Explosion

Vanilluxe @ Choice Specs
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Flash Cannon
- Explosion / Toxic
Vanilluxe boasts the most raw power as a Snow Warning user, and despite its limited movepool, its coverage and STAB can hit everything save for Thick Fat Miltank and Fire-types for at least neutral damage. The lack of sturdy Steel-types is also a helpful cause, since Perrserker and Dugtrio-A are rather frail, Stunfisk-G lacks offensive presence and can be worn down quickly, and while Klinklang is bothersome, Vanilluxe can rely on partner Wishiwashi to help sponge hits coming its way. Icy Rock + Aurora Veil enable it to be a strong supporter to help fellow hail sweepers Alolan Sandslash and Beartic and still maintain good power, while Specs ramps up its offensive prowess and narrows switch-ins limited to the Miltank and the aforementioned checks. Icy Rock can still reliably 2HKO staples like Rotom, Skuntank, and Work Up Silvally-Poison, though I personally prefer Specs Vanilluxe to overwhelm foes and allow the Hail and Stealth Rock damage set by Aurorus to break through the opposition better (and turn 2HKOes to OHKOes on Rotom, Skuntank without even the need for hail/stealth rock chip)

:sm/aurorus:
Aurorus @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Blizzard
- Encore
- Rock Tomb / Earth Power / Freeze-Dry
While Aurorus is known for its Meteor Beam and Choice Specs set, this set enables it to be a potent suicide lead, differentiating itself by discouraging setup sweepers with Encore and slowing down normally fast foes like Scarf Sawk or Manectric with Rock Tomb. I feel that unlike Vanilluxe, Aurorus’s set here is more suited for semi-hail/full hail playstyles, as otherwise the aforementioned Meteor Beam/Specs sets would be better on standard teams. This set also misses out on the ability to break past subs from Nasty Plot Rotom and Alolan Dugtrio, though the chip damage will negate leftovers and limit them to 4 rather than 5 Substitutes.

:sm/Sandslash-Alola:
Alolan Sandslash @ Wide Lens / Life Orb
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Triple Axel
- Earthquake
- Knock Off / Iron Head
Sandslash-Alola was also a hail sweeper when it, along with Arctovish, dropped into the meta, but it quickly fell out of favor when its specially defensive and non-hail offensive sets were shown to be more consistent over the meta. Now, with Vanilluxe, Aurorus, and sometimes Abomasnow ready to support it, this set is back to one of its most frightening sets to face yet. Miltank will fold to it without having Body Press to deal with it, since it relies on Seismic Toss for damage output, and unlike other Ice-types, Fire-types must fear Earthquake that can blow them away. The sole Fighting-type that can reliably deal with it is Gurdurr, and this can get worn down quickly over the course of a game. Sandslash-Alola is one of the scariest sweepers to face right now and will be seen more often than before.
:sm/abomasnow:
Abomasnow @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
Unlike the other Hail mons, Abomasnow sports a nifty Grass typing, enabling it to better threaten Waters like Wishiwashi, Poliwrath, and Basculin with its STABS while still being threatening to defensive staples like Tangela and Altaria. STAB Giga Drain enables it to always OHKO Rhydon 1v1 and provide recovery for itself in a pinch, while Earthquake dissuades any Fire-types from switching in on it. While Alolan Sandslash can run Ice Shard, this wastes a coverage slot, so Abomasnow can run it to pick off weakened foes like Sawk or Rotom, something the other two Snow Warning mons can do. However, Abomasnow has the most weaknesses of any of the Ice-type Pokemon available, meaning it won’t be able to use its perks more easily. It’s harder to slot on teams, but with forethought it can be a valuable support and mixed attacker.

:sm/beartic:
Beartic @ Choice Band
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Throat Chop
- Superpower
- Play Rough / Liquidation / Aqua Jet
Beartic @ Life Orb / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- Superpower
- Throat Chop / Liquidation / Aqua Jet / Play Rough
Lastly (but actually least :psycry: ), Beartic sports the highest attack of all Hail abusers/setters and has a variety of coverage moves on its belt. Choice Band was featured on S1nn0hC0nfirm3d ‘s hail team in NU and was a hard-to-switch into wallbreaker on its own right. Unlike other Hail mons, it has Superpower to dispatch Miltank and Play Rough to swat Fighting-types like Gurdurr and Throh. I feel the Choice Band set is better overall since its low speed causes it to fall behind even Accelgor, Choice Scarf Sawk/Manectric/Jynx, leaving it better as a wallbreaker so that Alolan Sandslash can find better sweeping opportunities. Heavy-Duty Boots or Life Orb is perfectly fine, though, as to provide a way to bypass its vulnerability to Hazards or Make it less prediction-reliant. This is not bad overall, though, and should be able to see more success than previously.

Overall, Hail is an extremely potent style in the metagame and adds a new, innovative part to the offensive playstyles previously considered. I see Sun, pivoting, and offensive teams getting worse, and a bulky ice resist is needed to stave off teams should they not be trapped in the snow. Thanks for reading!
 

viet noa

eating neopronoun pizza at little xe/xyrs
is a Pre-Contributor
:ss/vanilluxe:
Specs Vanilluxe: Overpowered or Overrated?

With the unbanning of Snow Warning, Vanilluxe is back as ZU's hottest topic. In particular, Choice Specs with a +SpA Nature looks to be extremely strong with high Special Attack and no-miss Blizzards. What do the calcs say about this, though?

252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Wishiwashi-School: 198-234 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 444-524 (107.2 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alcremie: 223-264 (66.7 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 171-202 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish: 542-638 (162.2 - 191%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Altaria: 616-732 (174 - 206.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Throh: 211-249 (47.5 - 56%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Cramorant: 672-792 (195.3 - 230.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 274-324 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ice Scales Frosmoth: 140-165 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 244+ SpD Articuno: 163-193 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Coalossal: 102-120 (24 - 28.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after hail damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Miltank: 118-141 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- 35.1% chance to 3HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Sandslash-Alola: 127-150 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- 93% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine: 133-157 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Wishiwashi-School: 76-90 (25.8 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery

There are plenty of Pokémon that are terrified of taking a Blizzard or Freeze-Dry, and there are some Pokémon that can tank a Blizzard but not a Freeze-Dry. With that being said, due to Vanilluxe's lack of valuable coverage, it can sometimes be prediction-reliant. Due to its mediocre Speed tier, it also gets easily revenge killed by Choice Scarf users, and generally fast Pokémon.

In spite of its flaws, it can't be denied that non-resistances almost always get murked by Blizzard. Many key defensive Pokémon in the metagame are inherently threatened by it, including the likes of Rhydon and Altaria. All things considered Specs Vanilluxe can still be a bit of a nuke, and it's more than worth building around.

Potential Partners: :thwackey:,:rhydon:,:ninetales:,:sawk:,:rotom:
 
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Corthius

diehard hockey fan
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Choice Specs with a +SpA
Missing out on Flapple, Malamar and Butterfree isn't worth it, you want +Speed imo.
You also haven't listed any Water Pulse calcs in the spoilers, while I think they are really important when factoring in potential switchins to Vanilluxe - Water Pulse mainly hits Fire types like Rapidash and Coalossal, but can also ease some predictions vs e.g. Perrserker (Steel type) and Piloswine on the same team (a bit specific but you get the idea).

Potential Partners: :thwackey:,:rhydon:,:ninetales:,:sawk:,:rotom: + :Sandslash-Alola::Choice Band::Leftovers: , :Hattrem::Eviolite: , :Gourgeist: , :Wishiwashi::Leftovers:
How could u not include a Slush Rush user for some smexy semi Hail :psyangry:

Hail is a interesting topic and I wanna share my takes on it and the effect on the metagame.
First of all, I really enjoy using Snow Warning / Slush Rush in the current metagame. The fast offensive Ice types and usual overload of shared checks is really dangerous and scary to face.
BUT for me, personally, as someone who both used full Hail and only one of the setter (Choice Specs Vanilluxe and Abomasnow), while also facing it, I don't feel like it's as oppressive as I heared from others. I totally get that the new presence of strong Ice type breaker makes a lot of staples like Rhydon, Tangela, and Altaria shudder, but that doesn't mean we, the metagame, can't adapt to them. I like that hiss already included Miltank in his calcs, since I believe it is one of the best answers to the general special hail setter. ToxTaunt Vanilluxe might be able to break trough Miltank, but it is far less effective at breaking in general (Just looking at the raw damage output). And that is exactly what I'm hoping to see; adaptations to Hail.
As scary as Hail is to face, it does have its flaws that you can use against it to keep it in check.
1. Entry Hazards:​
Entry hazards, especially Stealth Rocks, are pretty much 100% of the time on the field, due to our lack of reliable remover. Pokemon like Hattrem pairs decently well with Hail, checking Fighting types like Choice Scarf Sawk and prevent hazards from more passive setter like Stunfisk. But having a Hattrem on your team doesn't mean you are 100% safe from entry hazards. They cut A LOT into the longevity from hail staples like Beartic, Vanilluxe and Aurorus (assuming it's not the Sash lead and alr dead), making them more prone to being revengekilled. Which also leads to the next point...​
2. Faster Revengekiller / Priority:​
While Both Sandslash-Alola and Beartic are fast under hail, they still get outspedt by common Choice Scarf user like Rotom and Sawk (depending on the natures of the Slush Rush user), making them really prone to potential chip damage and a revengekill. Choice Scarf user like Rotom and Manectric are especially annoying, because they force damage with Volt Switch, making it really tough to preserve some HP.​
Another form of 'faster revengekilling' is priority. While not necessarily super common, Priority in Mach Punch from the likes of Gurdurr and Sucker Punch from Kangaskhan (also has Fake Out, wasting hail turns), Flapple, and Shiftry can further increase the damage dealt to the Slush Rusher.​
3. Defensive Checks:​
The tier offers a bunch of good/decent defensive checks to both the hail setter and the absuser. I will just provide a list below, since going into detail on them would blow the frame of this post.​
3.1. Hail Setter Checks:​
:Articuno:, :Coalossal:, :Cryogonal:, :Klinklang:, :Lickilicky:, :Miltank:, :Ninetales:, :Perrserker: (SpD sets), :Piloswine:, :Sandslash-Alola:, :Throh:, :Wishiwashi: (SpD sets)​
3.2. Hail Abuser Checks:​
:Avalugg:, :Cofagrigus:, :Dubwool:, :Gurdurr:, :Klinklang:, :Miltank:, :Perrserker:, :Persian-Alola:, :Poliwrath:, :Pyukumuku:, :Qwilfish:, :Throh:, :Wishiwashi:

I know that they can and will run coverage for many of these, but not clicking a STAB move makes them a lot less dangerous and forcing those mindgames is all it takes sometimes. Many threats in the tier are pretty stupid on paper (looking at you Thievul), but I think adapting to hail (if needed) is reasonable and it will make a fun offensive archetype in the tier.
Thanks for reading! Have a nice day and share your thoughts on the metagame!
 
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viet noa

eating neopronoun pizza at little xe/xyrs
is a Pre-Contributor
Missing out on Flapple, Malamar and Butterfree isn't worth it, you want +Speed imo.
You also haven't listed any Water Pulse calcs in the spoilers, while I think they are really important when factoring in potential switchins to Vanilluxe - Water Pulse mainly hits Fire types like Rapidash and Coalossal, but can also ease some predictions vs e.g. Perrserker (Steel type) and Piloswine on the same team (a bit specific but you get the idea).


How could u not include a Slush Rush user for some smexy semi Hail :psyangry:

Hail is a interesting topic and I wanna share my takes on it and the effect on the metagame.
First of all, I really enjoy using Snow Warning / Slush Rush in the current metagame. The fast offensive Ice types and usual overload of shared checks is really dangerous and scary to face.
BUT for me, personally, as someone who both used full Hail and only one of the setter (Choice Specs Vanilluxe and Abomasnow), while also facing it, I don't feel like it's as oppressive as I heared from others. I totally get that the new presence of strong Ice type breaker makes a lot of staples like Rhydon, Tangela, and Altaria shudder, but that doesn't mean we, the metagame, can't adapt to them. I like that hiss already included Miltank in his calcs, since I believe it is one of the best answers to the general special hail setter. ToxTaunt Vanilluxe might be able to break trough Miltank, but it is far less effective at breaking in general (Just looking at the raw damage output). And that is exactly what I'm hoping to see; adaptations to Hail.
As scary as Hail is to face, it does have its flaws that you can use against it to keep it in check.
1. Entry Hazards:​
Entry hazards, especially Stealth Rocks, are pretty much 100% of the time on the field, due to our lack of reliable remover. Pokemon like Hattrem pairs decently well with Hail, checking Fighting types like Choice Scarf Sawk and prevent hazards from more passive setter like Stunfisk. But having a Hattrem on your team doesn't mean you are 100% safe from entry hazards. They cut A LOT into the longevity from hail staples like Beartic, Vanilluxe and Aurorus (assuming it's not the Sash lead and alr dead), making them more prone to being revengekilled. Which also leads to the next point...​
2. Faster Revengekiller / Priority:​
While Both Sandslash-Alola and Beartic are fast under hail, they still get outspedt by common Choice Scarf user like Rotom and Sawk (depending on the natures of the Slush Rush user), making them really prone to potential chip damage and a revengekill. Choice Scarf user like Rotom and Manectric are especially annoying, because they force damage with Volt Switch, making it really tough to preserve some HP.​
Another form of 'faster revengekilling' is priority. While not necessarily super common, Priority in Mach Punch from the likes of Gurdurr and Sucker Punch from Kangaskhan (also has Fake Out, wasting hail turns), Flapple, and Shiftry can further increase the damage dealt to the Slush Rusher.​
3. Defensive Checks:​
The tier offers a bunch of good/decent defensive checks to both the hail setter and the absuser. I will just provide a list below, since going into detail on them would blow the frame of this post.​
3.1. Hail Setter Checks:​
:Articuno:, :Coalossal:, :Cryogonal:, :Klinklang:, :Lickilicky:, :Miltank:, :Ninetales:, :Perrserker: (SpD sets), :Piloswine:, :Sandslash-Alola:, :Wishiwashi: (SpD sets)​
3.2. Hail Abuser Checks:​
:Avalugg:, :Cofagrigus:, :Dubwool:, :Gurdurr:, :Klinklang:, :Miltank:, :Perrserker:, :Persian-Alola:, :Poliwrath:, :Pyukumuku:, :Qwilfish:, :Throh:, :Wishiwashi:

I know that they can and will run coverage for many of these, but not clicking a STAB move makes them a lot less dangerous and forcing those mindgames is all it takes sometimes. Many threats in the tier are pretty stupid on paper (looking at you Thievul), but I think adapting to hail (if needed) is reasonable and it will make a fun offensive archetype in the tier.
Thanks for reading! Have a nice day and share your thoughts on the metagame!
i agree w your post, and i probably shouldve used water pulse in my calcs, but there's one thing i disagree on: i think that +spa is better than +spe.

malamar doesn't run max speed, but when it does, it's not good at doing so. almost all malamars are running spdef sets so that it can be a bulky tank. flapple and butterfree are mons that outspeed +spa vanilluxe, but they're also not great mons in this current meta. most pokemon that pair well with it, whether that's breakers like sawk or walls like defensive snowslash, already check those mons good enough. most importantly, having a +spa nature allows vanilluxe to get crucial 2hko's on mons like clefairy and throh that it would otherwise struggle more to achieve.
 
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i agree w your post, and i probably shouldve used water pulse in my calcs, but there's one thing i disagree on: i think that +spa is better than +spe.

malamar doesn't run max speed, but when it does, it's not good at doing so. almost all malamars are running spdef sets so that it can be a bulky tank. flapple and butterfree are mons that outspeed +spa vanilluxe, but they're also not great mons in this current meta. most pokemon that pair well with it, whether that's breakers like sawk or walls like defensive snowslash, already check those mons good enough. most importantly, having a +spa nature allows vanilluxe to get crucial 2hko's on mons like clefairy and throh that it would otherwise struggle more to achieve.
There are a few others like Poliwrath and Lunatone too so personally I prefer +Speed but both options are probably justifiable.

I've only really experimented with Vanilluxe so far and honestly I think it's a monster - if you can get rid of the opposing team's ice check (and most teams seem to have one max right now) it can just spam blizzard and OHKO/2HKO the entire tier. Weirdly even though you are clicking blizzard 75% of the time it's nice not to be locked into it - the flexibility to switch into freeze dry is great to catch people off guard while priority in ice shard is super nice as well.

1638390910737.png


Vanilluxe @ Never-Melt Ice
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Ice Shard
- Freeze-Dry
- Aurora Veil

This is the set I've enjoyed using - the fourth moveslot is pretty flexible, you can also run water/steel coverage, autotomize, taunt etc.

TLDR: Ice cream for A
 

5gen

jumper
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:ss/vanilluxe: Vanilluxe has been unanimously quick banned from ZU following a quick ban vote by council. Here is the sheet for reasoning and votes.

Hail is expected to remain a central part of the metagame going forward mainly due to Aurorus and hail sweepers like Sandslash-A. Without Vanilluxe though, teams should be able to better prepare defensively because walls like Clefairy, Articuno, and Wishiwashi no longer fear Taunt Vanilluxe and Aurorus has lower SpA (but better coverage and access to Meteor Beam, so we'll see how things turn out). All in all, it'll be interesting to see how the metagame adapts going forward.

Tagging Kris to implement, thank you.
 

OranBerryBlissey10

is a Tiering Contributor
NUPL Champion
Shadow tier leader here playing the role of antagonist as I'm going to give my thoughts on Vanilluxe/hail. At the risk of sounding too critical, I'm going to attempt to explain why
1. I disagree with the circumstances surrounding the Vanilluxe qb.
2. the Vanilluxe qb barely matters to the meta.
3. Vanilluxe should be retested immediately after circuit.

1. I disagree with the circumstances surrounding the vanilluxe qb:
This is a mostly subjective, and therefore the least important point so I'll try to keep it brief. The primary reasoning behind the ban was the currently ongoing zu circuit tour, and it was argued that the meta for said tour shouldn't be made extra volatile with the entry of everybody's favorite ice cream. Prioritizing important tours over meta development (and yes that is what's happening since the meta isn't being allowed to develop naturally) is understable but goes against my personal reasoning. Taking vanilluxe out of the equation is just sheer time loss if it eventually gets unbanned (and it should). It's not like it was an entirely new threat either, zu has had Vanilluxe in earlier (less prepped) metas and it was never banned. This isn't a fair comparison however as the meta back then was definitely unbalanced so it very well could have ended on the chopping block given enough time. On top of that, banning Vanilluxe is imo fairly inconsequential. Which brings us to...

2. The Vanilluxe qb barely matters to the meta:
This might seem strange as a statement since Vanilluxe was arguably the best hail setter as well a very threatening standalone mon. However, both aspects are easily replaceable, making it so that teams still need to prep for powerful blizzards as well as full/semi hail offense. Abomasnow is an adequate and only slightly worse replacement on either front. It is significantly slower but the water resist is really useful for full hail while it doesn't really mind the lower damage output. As a lone wallbreaker it's actually better in some scenarios thanks to its expansive coverage, for example being able to leaf storm against waters, piloswine, miltank or as a midground. Earth power is also very useful as it allows it to get past steels (most notably snowslash) significantly easier. As much as I disagree with the ban, it feels kinda... beside the point anyway as it barely affects the viability of the new biggest threat in the tier (which is snowslash). I would have also disagreed with a snow warning or snowslash ban this early on, but it would have at least temporarily removed the most volatile/potentially unhealthy element from the tier. An argument that was brought up is that taunttox vani beats some of the specs checks, but in reality all of those also lose to one of aurorus or abomasnow, so there's no extra shortcuts one can now take in the builder despite a big threat being gone. One could make the argument that "something" had to go to avoid the overloading of answers, but this is also a severly flawed statement since you're running two snow warning mons at most which can still perfectly beat each other's answers. If this was one of the arguments, a much more efficient answer would once again be the banning of snow warning (ftr I don't think this is a good idea). To give an example, you can't go "phew my wishiwashi can't lose to toxtaunt vani anymore I'll be safe vs ice types now" when abomasnow can still just click its other stab or "cool cuno should wall the ice types now" when aurorus or snowslash obviously beat it. Once again, it just feels strange to ban a mon that has close to no effect on the viability of other mons (apart from making aboma a lot better by simple exclusion).

3. Vanilluxe should be retested immediately after circuit:
In case someone intends to counter my arguments by claiming that a vani retest is the exact same as the eventual suspect, it's not. The most important difference being the status quo having shifted. The burden of proof has shifted, it has to be proven not broken instead of the opposite (which would make much more sense seeing as it was intended as a temporary stopgap ban). If I'm mistaken and there will only need to be 40% dnb votes to get it unbanned, then great! Complaining about the Vanilluxe ban (while justfied) is just second guessing something that can't be changed. However, here are some core arguments for when the resuspect happens: (some of which have been surprisingly unmentioned)
- The optimal specs luxe set is Ice Beam/Freeze-Dry/Flash Cannon/Water Pulse, while this coverage isn't horrible it isn't great either. Something that people are always quick to point out is that it doesn't need its coverage since repeated blizzards + hail chip wears down steels. While this is a good argument up to a point, vani a mon that really really doesn't like clicking it's coverage, which can make it harder to break especially when combined with a rocks weakness. Realistically, are you going to like clicking water pulse vs a wishi that might greed when there's a coal in the back? This isn't to say Vanilluxe can't break those, just that in practice it's not as simple as it seems.
- A common sentiment I've seen is preferring taunttox luxe over specs as it's able to deal with some of specs's checks like cuno or miltank. However imo it's still an overrated set, You have no coverage for some switchins, you're even worse off against steels (especially snowslash) and you're pretty predictable once your opponent discovers the boots or sees the blizzard damage. The more offensive a team is, the less it can switch in but the more passive it is, the more chance you'll eventually run out of blizzard pp.
- Either set (or even others) have few switchin opportunities, the speed tier is also quite lacking from my experience, being just below a lot of common opposing offensive threats. It's in the same boat as Thievul as in, it would be broken if it got more switchins, but in practice it does less than expected.
- Something I've heard a lot, and completely disagree with, is that zu supposedly can't handle good ice types. Compared to pu or nu, we're pretty lucky in that a lot of our top mons (like miltank, wishi, slash) all do great vs it. Maybe I'm a bit biased here since I like to spam snowslash (which is arguably the best answer to Vanilluxe) but zu "having a bad mu vs ice types" so to speak is just incorrect.

I consider(ed) Vanilluxe to be an A/A+ mon in the metagame that has more and better counterplay to it than is commonly considered, that it was unjustly banned and that it should rejoin the tier at the earliest convenience. This should be obvious, but this is not meant as any sort of criticism or jab towards the council even if I do disagree with the decision. (except tuthur ofc tuthur is bad) If anyone thinks that I'm making way too big of a deal out of a temporary ban, then... well... fair.
 
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Tuthur

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Hello, would like to say that's my personal opinion and it doesn't reflect the whole council's sentiment.

1. I disagree with the circumstances surrounding the vanilluxe qb:
This is a mostly subjective, and therefore the least important point so I'll try to keep it brief. The primary reasoning behind the ban was the currently ongoing zu circuit tour, and it was argued that the meta for said tour shouldn't be made extra volatile with the entry of everybody's favorite ice cream. Prioritizing important tours over meta development (and yes that is what's happening since the meta isn't being allowed to develop naturally) is understable but goes against my personal reasoning. Taking vanilluxe out of the equation is just sheer time loss if it eventually gets unbanned (and it should). It's not like it was an entirely new threat either, zu has had Vanilluxe in earlier (less prepped) metas and it was never banned. This isn't a fair comparison however as the meta back then was definitely unbalanced so it very well could have ended on the chopping block given enough time. On top of that, banning Vanilluxe is imo fairly inconsequential. Which brings us to...
As you said it is not fair to compare Vanilluxe in today's ZU to Vanilluxe in the mess that was early 2021, so I'm going to ignore this point.
About the time loss, if the council voted to ban Vanilluxe, it is not because we are too lazy to adapt to it before the end of the circuit. It is because we think it is broken. Snow Warning has been allowed for weeks and we even played one round of the zu circuit playoffs before deciding to ban it. You seem very confident that Vanilluxe would be unbanned should it given it a retest, but that's not really a popular opinion. Most people I've been talking to think Vanilluxe is quite dumb.

2. The Vanilluxe qb barely matters to the meta:
This might seem strange as a statement since Vanilluxe was arguably the best hail setter as well a very threatening standalone mon. However, both aspects are easily replaceable, making it so that teams still need to prep for powerful blizzards as well as full/semi hail offense. Abomasnow is an adequate and only slightly worse replacement on either front. It is significantly slower but the water resist is really useful for full hail while it doesn't really mind the lower damage output. As a lone wallbreaker it's actually better in some scenarios thanks to its expansive coverage, for example being able to leaf storm against waters, piloswine, miltank or as a midground. Earth power is also very useful as it allows it to get past steels (most notably snowslash) significantly easier. As much as I disagree with the ban, it feels kinda... beside the point anyway as it barely affects the viability of the new biggest threat in the tier (which is snowslash). I would have also disagreed with a snow warning or snowslash ban this early on, but it would have at least temporarily removed the most volatile/potentially unhealthy element from the tier. An argument that was brought up is that taunttox vani beats some of the specs checks, but in reality all of those also lose to one of aurorus or abomasnow, so there's no extra shortcuts one can now take in the builder despite a big threat being gone. One could make the argument that "something" had to go to avoid the overloading of answers, but this is also a severly flawed statement since you're running two snow warning mons at most which can still perfectly beat each other's answers. If this was one of the arguments, a much more efficient answer would once again be the banning of snow warning (ftr I don't think this is a good idea). To give an example, you can't go "phew my wishiwashi can't lose to toxtaunt vani anymore I'll be safe vs ice types now" when abomasnow can still just click its other stab or "cool cuno should wall the ice types now" when aurorus or snowslash obviously beat it. Once again, it just feels strange to ban a mon that has close to no effect on the viability of other mons (apart from making aboma a lot better by simple exclusion).
I'll come back later to the point of other Ice types are also doing similar stuffs. Now onto Vanilluxe, looking at the next paragraph you seem to think the best set was Choice Specs, and in my opinion you are underselling the real best set: ToxTaunt. The counterplay to this Vanilluxe was almost non existant, outside of Alolan Sandslash, nothing can really come on a Blizzard, take the hail and hazard chip, and be able to come next time on Blizzard. The few things that do can't really threaten Vanilluxe back and need to heal, so Taunt is beating them. I think my second game versus crying in circuit playoffs is a great showcase of what Vanilluxe does. crying has a SpD Kanga and a bulky Rapidash but Vanilluxe is still able to break through them. In my experience, unless you run HO or Alolan Sandslash, you were going to be in huge trouble versus Vanilluxe. That's the reason why I voted ban on Vanilluxe and why I think it isn't just another Ice-type breaker.

3. Vanilluxe should be retested immediately after circuit:
In case someone intends to counter my arguments by claiming that a vani retest is the exact same as the eventual suspect, it's not. The most important difference being the status quo having shifted. The burden of proof has shifted, it has to be proven not broken instead of the opposite (which would make much more sense seeing as it was intended as a temporary stopgap ban). If I'm mistaken and there will only need to be 40% dnb votes to get it unbanned, then great! Complaining about the Vanilluxe ban (while justfied) is just second guessing something that can't be changed. However, here are some core arguments for when the resuspect happens: (some of which have been surprisingly unmentioned)
- The optimal specs luxe set is Ice Beam/Freeze-Dry/Flash Cannon/Water Pulse, while this coverage isn't horrible it isn't great either. Something that people are always quick to point out is that it doesn't need its coverage since repeated blizzards + hail chip wears down steels. While this is a good argument up to a point, vani a mon that really really doesn't like clicking it's coverage, which can make it harder to break especially when combined with a rocks weakness. Realistically, are you going to like clicking water pulse vs a wishi that might greed when there's a coal in the back? This isn't to say Vanilluxe can't break those, just that in practice it's not as simple as it seems.
- A common sentiment I've seen is preferring taunttox luxe over specs as it's able to deal with some of specs's checks like cuno or miltank. However imo it's still an overrated set, You have no coverage for some switchins, you're even worse off against steels (especially snowslash) and you're pretty predictable once your opponent discovers the boots or sees the blizzard damage. The more offensive a team is, the less it can switch in but the more passive it is, the more chance you'll eventually run out of blizzard pp.
- Either set (or even others) have few switchin opportunities, the speed tier is also quite lacking from my experience, being just below a lot of common opposing offensive threats. It's in the same boat as Thievul as in, it would be broken if it got more switchins, but in practice it does less than expected.
- Something I've heard a lot, and completely disagree with, is that zu supposedly can't handle good ice types. Compared to pu or nu, we're pretty lucky in that a lot of our top mons (like miltank, wishi, slash) all do great vs it. Maybe I'm a bit biased here since I like to spam snowslash (which is arguably the best answer to Vanilluxe) but zu "having a bad mu vs ice types" so to speak is just incorrect.
This won't happen. Or at least not before January tier shifts, since those are major tier shifts and we're going to lose and gain stuffs from PU.

Now, I want to talk a bit more about Ice-type breakers in ZU. As stated by OBB, some of them are almost as powerful as Vanilluxe and in my experience it is a huge burden preparing for those.
Abomasnow, Aurorus, Alolan Sandslash, Jynx, Frosmoth, Piloswine, and Articuno are all common offensive threats in the ZU tier. While Piloswine and Articuno can easily be answered by most walls that aren't weak to their STAB, the same can't be said for the others.
The most common Ice-checks are Alolan Sandslash, Wishiwashi, Miltank, Rapidash, Articuno, Klinklang, Clefairy, Throh, Perrserker, Poliwrath, Coalossal, and Frosmoth. This sounds like a huge number of Ice-checks, but in fact they all have significant flaws.
:abomasnow:
The Grass-STAB means Wishiwashi and Poliwrath can't switch into it. The Ground- and Fighting-coverage demolish Alolan Sandslash, Rapidash, Perrserker, Klinklang, and Coalossal. Snow Warning means Throh, Klinklang, Rapidash, Coalossal, Wishiwashi, and Perrserker struggle to recover off the damages taken. Clefairy, Miltank, and Frosmoth are quite reliable though, even if they have to watch out for the rare Swords Dance variant.
:aurorus:
Meteor Beam is a nuke that lets Aurorus break anything not named Throh. This one doesn't even enjoy switching into Aurorus as Blizzard is still doing a ton and due to Snow Warning, Throh struggles to recover the lost damages. Steel-types can often switch in because Aurorus is currently running Earth Power less commonly than Freeze Dry (used for Wishiwashi and Poliwrath) but they are heavily chipped by hazards + hail + strong stab moves.
:sandslash-alola:
Eathquake covers most Ice-resists and with Slush Rush it outspeeds everything. It can also boost with Swords Dance. However, it struggles breaking past Miltank and bulky Water.
:jynx:
Focus Blast breaks through Steel-types, Coalossal, and Miltank. Psyshock lets it 2HKO Clefairy, Articuno, Poliwrath, and SpD Wishiwashi. Lovely Kiss can also shut down a check.
:frosmoth:
Can't do anything to Steel- and Fire-types. Loses to Throh, Specially Defensive Miltank, and Articuno. Nonetheless, it is one of the most threatening because it has the ability to sweep and it doesn't need that much chips on its checks, while being able to abuse the likes of Clefairy, asleep Wiswhiwashi, and Flying STAB less Articuno.

From this, one could say, Ice-types can break through most of their common checks, but as long as you don't let them come for free and they don't don't win every prediction, you should be fine with one or two checks. The most of the best defensive Pokemon in the tier are abused by Ice-types: Rhydon, Tangela, Eldegoss, and Altaria just to name a few, and building without those is really though if you're not running HO. This is also the reason why we already had problems dealing with Rotom-Frost and Vanilluxe, and needed to ban them. I think that Ice-types are inherently unhealthy in the ZU metagame. Of course, all shouldn't be banned and outside Aurorus I don't think any is broken. However, the combination of 5 extemely powerful Ice-types with nicher ones like Piloswine, Articuno, and Beartic makes the metagame unhealthy as you can't really cover all of them, since we lack good Ice-checks to answer them all. In my opinion, Aurorus has to go right away as the defensive counterplay to it is near non existant, and other threats should be watched carefully.

tldr: Vanilluxe's ban is very much deserved, ZU has a problem with Ice-types, and Aurorus probably deserves a ban.
 

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

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Yeah Ice-types are kinda nutty. There's no consistent answer to all of them and I think the Snow Warning return is of upmost concern.

The problem with Snow Warning is two fold; it allows Ice-spam teams to have a ton of speed through Slush Rush and buffs an already problematic wallbreaker (:Aurorus:). Previously, Ice-types were all slow with exploitable weaknesses. Now with Slush Rush users, it's very easy for hail teams to combo a setter / wallbreaker with a sweeper / wallbreaker. Both full-hail and semi-hail show broken elements to this combo with very limited counterplay outside of say Choice Specs Poliwrath. Then there's Aurorus; Tuthur makes good points for its brokeness but a lot of that is contingent on the Blizzard + hail chip buff. The extra damage is significant enough to make what was considered a B+ wallbreaker into one with little to no consistent switch-ins. Surely Aurorus is still underrated even without Snow Warning, and it could totally still be broken without it, but the underline threat of auto-weather is the major concern.

Without Snow Warning, there would be a bit more counterplay to Ice-types altogether too. First and foremost there's Morning Sun + Moonlight users like Rapidash and Clefairy that aren't threatened by the weather dampening their recovery, and these two are good enough checks to a good handful of Ice-type threats. Defensive Water-types can actually enjoy Leftovers recovery, and Choice Scarf Sawk is good enough to force out Alolan Sandslash and Beartic. Techs like Fire Blast Gourgeist-S and ToxicTect Cryogenal still work as of this post, and they'd be a bit better as checks without the threat of Slush Rush.

Banning Snow Warning is a precedent set by NU earlier this generation. Let's not reinvent the wheel here.

If the ban is still not enough, as admittedly the defensive counterplay really isn't that vast, then there's a couple routes we can entertain. First and foremost, we don't know exactly what next shifts are going to contain. That means there might be bigger fish to fry, or, optimistically speaking, maybe new threats can help deal with the icebergs that ZUers are crashing into. If not, is there anything that we could unban ourselves to reintroduce more counterplay? Not really, imo, cause mons like Centiskorch and Magmotar are still busted, and others like Sneasel and Rotom-F are a part of the problem anyways. This all makes me believe that we should ban Snow Warning and go from there.

---

Entry hazards are a huge part of the metagame right now. :eldegoss: surpasses :tangela: as a go-to Grass-type wall due to Rapid Spin being so powerful. :qwilfish: and :sandslash-alola: are everywhere as well, and they are often used together for a great heavy hazard core. Defoggers aren't that great though given most are very vulnerable to Knock Off and Taunt, which are everywhere both on the hazard setters + their support. Keep an eye out on heavy hazard playstyles because I think they're very good atm.
 
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