Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 10 - London Bridge is Falling Down

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Here's my two cents about this suspect.

To be completely honest I was not expecting an Arch suspect at all.

Arch is literally contained to rain. It isn't very good if rain isn't up, which can be done by using other weather (like hail and sun), as mentioned twice I think by Finchinator.
Arch can also get completely annihlated by the very pokemon that was suspected last time. Choice Specs Earth Power Kyurem hits HARD, even though Assault Vest because of its 65 SpD stat. And again rain does have a tough match-up with Kyurem anyways.....

If I get reqs, which I am going to spend my time doing, currently I will vote for No Ban right now (if I get reqs of course), tho it might change after i start playing a little bit.
I entirely disagree with this. I have been using arch outside of rain mostly, and while it is not broken out of rain, it is easily A tier, if not higher, outside of rain. Stamina + leftovers + grassy terrain makes this thing unkillable, even when it is low on health. Its support + sp. attack + rain usage as one of the best attackers in the game makes it broken overall imo
 

ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 186-220 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 154-182 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Heatran at the very least can chip archaludon immensly. It may not be the best matchup, but you were showing magma storm, which you probably wouldn't spam into rain anyway.
This is a fair point to bring up. I calced Magma Storm because I thought that the chip from the Fire Spin + Protect was better because it also kills rain turns, but I think Earth Power is a lot more viable than I realized.

Still, Heatran isn't really a spammable Pokemon. And I still believe that overall, Archaludon has good match-ups into most Pokemon you can throw it into; this MU is less so than I portrayed I think.
 
During the ladder I saw things like Dragon Tail Archaludon, legitimately dealing chip damage to its few counters.
I also saw the popular Rain team changing Tera Fairy > Dragon, putting enormous pressure on Clodsire.
252+ SpA Tera Dragon Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 218-258 (47 - 55.7%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO.
There are also SR/Prot/BP/DT or even RestTalk DT/BD versions that are little explored. Just because they are not the best, it does not mean that they are not viable.
Its counters need to resort to a specific moveset and even a specific Tera (Amnesia Clodsire and Tera Ghost Blissey) and even then they may end up running into things like Earthquake or Dark Pulse.
It is not necessary to change much what is already breaking. But if necessary, Archaludon has it.
I don't want to expand and probably say something previously said, I'm going to Ban Archaludon.
 
I know I previously said I would vote don't ban but I've changed my mind. The metagame is the worst I have ever played since gen8. It feels like you either play rain or stall or you are getting cooked. I was tired of playing rain so I used a cheese sticky web for my reqs but even then I put swift swim basculegion in it to have an easy match up against all the rain team on the ladder and the double ghost for anti spin lol.

I don't like voting ban on things usually and even though I love Archaludon it needs to go.

Just a quick note on Archaludon, even though the rain set is what pushes it over the edge (on top of Tera and the overcentralization of the meta), I found it pretty good under webs/screen with this set :

Archaludon @ Scope Lens
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Fairy/Flying/Fighting
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Flash Cannon
- Focus Energy
- Draco Meteor

Which makes me think that even outside of rain, Archaludon can be pretty cheesy if you face the right match up and is still an underexplored pokemon. I also liked using it with protect and grassy terrain on a balance team.

Tldr : I had fun using Archaludon but I'll vote ban.
 
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Greetings, Im a long time pokemon fan, competitive OU and UU player mostly.
Id like to say that something thats broken under a specific condition, isnt broken.
Achludon is slow, bulky for sure, but has cleary weaknesses. Its rain thats a problem, when you have to face pokemons like barraskewda and Raging Bolt(litereally in every alternate match) after beating an archludon, it gets troublesome. I say ban drizzle or damp rock, because without those 2, the meta becomes a lot more balanced and welcoming.
Cant just keep banning every cool looking mon out there....

Please dont ban Acrhaludon.
 
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Since the opinions seem to be kinda 50/50 why can't we compromise and only ban arch on rain aka electro shot?
It would solve the problem and upset the least amount of people. Isn't the goal for players to have fun? I feel like these all or nothing approaches hurt the game's popularity.

Signature moves being banned is entirely off the field, this conversation's happened multiple times for the likes of Rage Fist on Annihilape, Last Respects on Houndstone Pre-DLC and Shed Tail on Cyclizar (Before Orthworm usage). Moves have to prove to be broken on multiple users to stand a chance at getting banned.
And yes I have read this but the move is objectivly broken, just compare it to thunder, solar blade or meteor beam.
 
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Since the opinions seem to be kinda 50/50 why can't we compromise and only ban arch on rain aka electro shot?
It would solve the problem and upset the least amount of people. Isn't the goal for players to have fun? I feel like these all or nothing approaches hurt the game's popularity.
This won't happen because smogon hates complex bans like the one you are suggesting. It's simpler for the rules to just ban broken stuff instead of trying to restrict it and this same line of reasoning can be used for dumber ideas like "would kyogre be fine in OU if we banned water moves it?"
 
Since the opinions seem to be kinda 50/50 why can't we compromise and only ban arch on rain
A: Complex ban, which is off the table.

B: If this happens, then a similar situation to the B2W2 Sand Rush in Sandstorm ban will happen, where non-Rain teams will use Archaludon to force Rain teams into a catch 22 of either don’t use Rain to fuel the Arch (and lose the entire point of their team) or use Rain and get swept by an abomination so horrific they can’t use it themselves.

So it’s either ban Archaludon or don’t ban Archaludon, those are your options.
 
I want to give my two cents on :archaludon:.

TL;DR BAN it.

Rain is flooding the ladder, tournaments, and even the forum discussions because of archaludon. I've used arch on and off rain teams. Arch is generally a solid mon without rain but under rain it practically violates the Geneva convention. It will trade 2 for 1 or better most games, and if not, there's still 4 other rain abusers to take down. Just because something is only broken with a specific condition shouldn't mean that we should preserve it. Eg. Gen 5 sand rush + sand stream ban and Sneasler ban.

'Oh but it's not arch that's the problem, it's rain as a whole!'
Then why has rain become the #1 archetype after being generally considered 'unviable' or at best, 'unreliable'? Hmm, which pokemon was released in the indigo disk that directly abuses rain? Archaludon is the one who allows rain to be so centralising. All of the other components of rain are replaceable; Archaldon is the unique place that allows rain dominate the way it currently is.

'But clodsire checks it!'
A) Clod does not check eq arch, nor the tera dragon set that has been mentioned, and can be accounted for with the 6th slot on rain teams, eg. Kingambit, who beats clod. Random stuff like psychic fangs barraskewda can be used if the rain user is really scared of clod.
B) Whenever something that belongs in a lower tier crops up into top 10 in tournament usage, there is a problem. See Tauros-Blaze to check Chien-Pao. It goes to show the constraint on teambuilding that arch has, since clod is pretty passive and can be deadweight in non-rain matchups.

By banning arch progress can be made in the OU tier. Change is a necessity to prevent OU from being boring and unplayable. Those who would vote DNB are voting for a tier that no-one would ever want to play. It would be a repeat of Gen 5 OU in a way, and some already think of the current tier like that. Something needs to happen to find relative stability in the tier, and here is the opportunity for change.

'But there are bigger fish to fry!'
Then wait for the bigger fish's suspect test! Just because you might believe arch is the 2nd or 3rd or whatever most problematic mon in the tier doesn't mean it is not broken or unbalanced. Problematic Pokemon should be removed from the tier, and I struggle to believe anyone with proper experience can say in good faith that archaludon is not at all unbalanced in any way, whether that way be in the teambuilder, in the match, in terms of the stranglehold it has on the meta, or forcing clodsire on teams it shouldn't be on.

To summarise: Even if archaludon may not be an individually unreasonably strong behemoth like, for example, terapagos, it is still banworthy for its unreasonable ability to trade, ability to tech itself to beat 'checks', and the dominance of the metagame that is evidently existent as shown by tournament stats and the unhappiness that many top players and others have. I personally cannot see a reason to not ban it, as it can only do good for the metagame, and rain would not be unviable since it has raging bolt, and it will be able to grow and develop as a playstyle, as can the rest of the metagame. If Archaludon gets banned, progress can be made in the development of the tier. If it remains, the metagame will stagnate until something gets banned. Please, vote BAN.
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor
And yes I have read this but the move is objectivly broken, just compare it to thunder, solar blade or meteor beam.
You can't just say the move is objectively broken when we only have one abuser, Archaludon in particular is particularly well equipped to abuse it due to Stamina+Body Press, being able to deal with most SPdef tanks quite well. Take some electric types like Sandy Shocks or Magnezone and neither would be broken with Electro Shot, due to a lack of coverage and slow speed. Archaludon's bulk, typing, coverage and ability all make it extremely polarizing and in a perfect position to abuse Electro Shot.
 
Greetings, Im a long time pokemon fan, competitive OU and UU player mostly.
Id like to say that something thats broken under a specific condition, isnt broken.
Achludon is slow, bulky for sure, but has cleary weaknesses. Its rain thats a problem, when you have to face pokemons like barraskewda and Raging Bolt(litereally in every alternate match) after beating an archludon, it gets troublesome. I say ban drizzle or damp rock, because without those 2, the meta becomes a lot more balanced and welcoming.
Cant just keep banning every cool looking mon out there....

Please dont ban Acrhaludon.
this is a shitpost or just a really bad take. if its the latter then at least read the discussion before giving your input. what are the clear weaknesses you mention that check Archaludon? if rain is the problem, then was rain a problem before Archaludon was released?

Archaludon has a higher speed stat than Gholdengo does and outspeeds it without EV investment on both sides, so I wouldn't necessarily call it slow. sure it doesn't outpace the faster mons' but it definitely has the bulk to tank any hit from them and then one shot it after.
 

Nanulak

formerly PokefanKIV
You know, I just realized. Everyone’s been saying that Arch should be banned because you can’t beat it without sacking another Pokémon, and I agree, that might be true, but the same’s true with other OU Pokémon like Barra a lot of times, maybe Meow, Moon, Valiant, etc. (I don’t really know). I get that Arch can be OP. I’ve seen it myself. But that doesn’t mean it deserves a ban
 
Hey, my Tera Fairy Arch just got OHKO’d by a Tera Steel Tera Blast from a Kilowattrel. It didn’t have any stat boosts. Kilo just switched in and ate an EShot via Volt Absorb then OHKO’d me. Explain
Since you asked so nicely, I used the damage calculator to find out how this was possible:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Steel Kilowattrel Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Fairy Archaludon: 320-378 (99.6 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

You ran into a Specs Kilowattrel. I can't tell you why your opponent was running Specs TB Steel Kilowattrel, but that's just matchups for you. Also, you know, you can edit your post if you feel like you have more to add onto an existing point.
 

Nanulak

formerly PokefanKIV
Since you asked so nicely, I used the damage calculator to find out how this was possible:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Steel Kilowattrel Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Fairy Archaludon: 320-378 (99.6 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

You ran into a Specs Kilowattrel. I can't tell you why your opponent was running Specs TB Steel Kilowattrel, but that's just matchups for you. Also, you know, you can edit your post if you feel like you have more to add onto an existing point.
Ah, RIP. I was hoping I had a point against not banning Arch T-T
Also, sorry if I seemed rude
 

CaptainSC

THE 'Hype Boy'
is a Tiering Contributor
Hi I want to come on here and say a couple of things about arch and why I think it deserves to be banned.

For one, I couldn't agree more with ausma's post. This is THE perfect pokemon for rain. With it's outstanding bulk + typing arch can trade or has a positive MU into just about every OFFENSIVE threat against rain. But I want to go further into detail on how this mon allows rain to patch up just about every one of it's match up against most playstyles besides stall.

Now lets go back and think about the traditional ways of offensively dealing with rain.

1. bulky waters that can eat and deliver hits.

2. fast strong dragons that bombard the rain teams from the get-go.

3. rillaboom.

I'm going to skip the bulky water discussion since you don't need a lengthy paragraph about how an electric meteor beam on steroids is strong against bulky waters.

However, I do think it's interesting to discuss arch's ability to trade into just about everything that's threatening towards rain. And I'm using the word trade generously. Usually arch is able to trade 1 and a half mons all by itself. or even force a tera in some instances. And for most teams, it's about keeping ENOUGH anti-rain pokemon alive through the arch assault so that you don't crumble under barrascewda's assult under rain. because like I said, anything that helps check and play around barraskewda AT BEST trades against arch. (and no water absorb clod does not beat arch 1v1 only unaware does). which is why I'm super adamant on arch being mandatory in rain teams. So pokemon like dragapult, gambit, long neck, Tera water gliscor, rillaboom, dnite, volcanion, primarina are pokemon that are commonly correlated with being good/ usable pokemon to slow down the rain assult. But with arch around they just don't work that well anymore since your team struggles to withstand the draco + electro shots.

And in this meta, most offense teams just feel downright unplayable. (I'm not saying you can't win games with offense) However, anytime you go against rain with an offensive minded team it always feels like a MAJOR uphill battle. And usually HO just get's MUed by start from arch + barraskewda.

But obviously arch isnt JUST threatneing agasint offensive mons. arch is also phenomenal against defensive mons as well. For example arch also has a chance of beating glowking just by clicking it's best available moves against the most splashable special wall in the tier in slowking galar.

+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 154-182 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 231-273 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

so if your glow-king switches into arch's electroshot there are rolls that actually kill the glowking with a draco. Obviously this depends on rolls but the fact that you can just kill glowking by clicking neutral moves is outlandish. and with it's body press + special attacks most special walls cant handle the offensive onslaught. and physical checks just get blown up by draco half the time.

obviously defensive counterplay exists. -> aka unaware clod. but having true 1 counter to an offensive threat that snowballs like this isnt the healthiest dynamic for the tier IMO. and the fact that stall is the only true archetype that can actually take on the arch rain CONSISTENTLY should be a pretty clear example of the negative impact on this metagame.


So to put it simply arch enables rain to have a good match up to an extent that we've never seen before. The way that arch trades or just straight up wins the exchange with the mons that threaten the other rain staples has been unprecedented. This a pokemon that provides bulk and power in spades without being too slow paced. As a matter of fact it's able to quickly snowball into being a sweeper itself with electro shot. Which is why I think this is the quintessential rain pokemon. And I think that the arch rain dynamic is unhealthy for the tier to handle.
 
You can't just say the move is objectively broken when we only have one abuser, Archaludon in particular is particularly well equipped to abuse it due to Stamina+Body Press, being able to deal with most SPdef tanks quite well. Take some electric types like Sandy Shocks or Magnezone and neither would be broken with Electro Shot, due to a lack of coverage and slow speed. Archaludon's bulk, typing, coverage and ability all make it extremely polarizing and in a perfect position to abuse Electro Shot.
No mechanic is objectively broken or not broken. The mons that exist with the mechanics can be deemed broken or not. Even powerful or uncompetitive moves and abilities would not be broken on sufficiently weak Pokémon. ex Arena Trap is banned in SS OU but Arena Trap Dugtrio is legal and only C- rank in SS Ubers.
 

Nanulak

formerly PokefanKIV
Hey, did some testing of my Treads set and my Glimmora set v. my Arch set. Let’s see what happens in the damage calculator (and for you Ban people, I decided to give Arch +1 Defense and Sp. Atk, and I’ll deal maximum to test Pokémon and minimum to Arch)

Iron Treads v. Archaludon

Turn 1, Iron Treads faster


128 SpA Iron Treads Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 168-198 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 248-292 (77.2 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Iron Treads: 9% HP
Archaludon: 48% HP

Turn 2, Iron Treads faster


128 SpA Iron Treads Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 168-198 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Iron Treads wins!


Glimmora v. Archaludon

Turn 1, Glimmora faster


252 SpA Glimmora Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 186-220 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Glimmora: 452-534 (147.2 - 173.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Focus Sash lets Glimmora survive)

Glimmora: 1% HP
Archaludon: 48% HP

Turn 2, Glimmora faster


252 SpA Glimmora Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 186-220 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Glimmora wins!

These are actually my sets. I run 128 Attack 128 Sp. Atk mixed attacker Treads and max Speed 252 Sp. Atk Glimmora. I also do run AV on my Arch and max Speed, 252 Sp. Atk. Let me know if there’s any more Pokémon you want me to use, or if you want my sets to try it out yourself!
 
Hey, did some testing of my Treads set and my Glimmora set v. my Arch set. Let’s see what happens in the damage calculator (and for you Ban people, I decided to give Arch +1 Defense and Sp. Atk, and I’ll deal maximum to test Pokémon and minimum to Arch)

Iron Treads v. Archaludon

Turn 1, Iron Treads faster


128 SpA Iron Treads Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 168-198 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 248-292 (77.2 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Iron Treads: 9% HP
Archaludon: 48% HP

Turn 2, Iron Treads faster


128 SpA Iron Treads Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 168-198 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Iron Treads wins!


Glimmora v. Archaludon

Turn 1, Glimmora faster


252 SpA Glimmora Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 186-220 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Glimmora: 452-534 (147.2 - 173.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Focus Sash lets Glimmora survive)

Glimmora: 1% HP
Archaludon: 48% HP

Turn 2, Glimmora faster


252 SpA Glimmora Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 186-220 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Glimmora wins!

These are actually my sets. I run 128 Attack 128 Sp. Atk mixed attacker Treads and max Speed 252 Sp. Atk Glimmora. I also do run AV on my Arch and max Speed, 252 Sp. Atk. Let me know if there’s any more Pokémon you want me to use, or if you want my sets to try it out yourself!
that's all cool and fine until you realize that you just listed a ground and a rock type as a counter to a pokemon on a rain team. That's the issue with arch- non-rain variants aren't broken in the slightest, and it's not a pokemon that wins against literally every ou pokemon- it loses to quite a few of them, actually. But when put on a rain team, where you're already pressured to handle the fast and strong water mons, arch applies a lot of pressure via electro shot, forces uncomfortable 2 for 1 trades from the opponent, and patches up many of rain's weaknesses; high physical defense, stamina, and typing loaded with resistances helps against endgame priority from Gambit and Boom, for example. It's just not healthy.

Also, arch being at +1 spA vs glimm assumes that glimm switched in on an electro shot, meaning that your glimm is dead bro
 

Nanulak

formerly PokefanKIV
Also, arch being at +1 spA vs glimm assumes that glimm switched in on an electro shot, meaning that your glimm is dead bro
That was just to appease the people who would say “yea, but it’d have a Sp. Atk and Defense boost” so there’s that. And I also made the Arch do maximum and counter do minimum, so if anything, it’s less fair
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor
That was just to appease the people who would say “yea, but it’d have a Sp. Atk and Defense boost” so there’s that. And I also made the Arch do maximum and counter do minimum, so if anything, it’s less fair
Your counter requiring a focus sash does not make it a counter, and while Iron Treads does check Archaludon, it just offers Archaludon a free switch into the team's water types, which all have means of heavily pressuring Treads (as they do Glimmora). Your Glimmora is not keeping it's focus sash late into the game, and if it does, you're frankly playing against people that pilot rain extremely badly.

This is also all ignoring the fact that Archaludon will frequently Tera out of it's ground weakness, making your EP-reliant mons less strong. Glimmora at least has ways to punish Tera Fairy, but Iron Treads is required to use Steel Beam, which is unreliable in case of a switch-out.

No bulk Archaludon is also almost non-existant, many sets will fully invest into HP, or at least 204 (according to the sample sets), making your calcs look like the following:

128 SpA Iron Treads Earth Power vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 168-198 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 30.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Glimmora Earth Power vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 186-220 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

btw use full Special Attack treads, it's a lot more consistent
 
Your counter requiring a focus sash does not make it a counter, and while Iron Treads does check Archaludon, it just offers Archaludon a free switch into the team's water types, which all have means of heavily pressuring Treads (as they do Glimmora). Your Glimmora is not keeping it's focus sash late into the game, and if it does, you're frankly playing against people that pilot rain extremely badly.

This is also all ignoring the fact that Duraludon will frequently Tera out of it's ground weakness, making your EP-reliant mons less strong. Glimmora at least has ways to punish Tera Fairy, but Iron Treads is required to use Steel Beam, which is unreliable in case of a switch-out.
Wait! Duraludon is viable as a Tera Abuser with Archaludon?!
 
Iron Treads v. Archaludon

Turn 1, Iron Treads faster


128 SpA Iron Treads Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 168-198 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 248-292 (77.2 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Iron Treads does check Archaludon but your team offers Archaludon a free switch on your pokemon that can't do anything back and now what? Many rain team have Archaludon / Raging Bolt so Iron Treads is your Raging Bolt check and its damage is mid.

Glimmora v. Archaludon

Turn 1, Glimmora faster


252 SpA Glimmora Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 186-220 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Glimmora: 452-534 (147.2 - 173.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Focus Sash lets Glimmora survive)
Glimmora isn't keeping Focus Sash in mid-game to end-game and you should not rely on Focus Sash to check something.
 
Focus Sash for Glimmora reminds me of Focus Sash Marshadow in Ubers. Can't believe people are using focus Sash using non-leads as argument for check in a hazard heavy meta.
 
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