Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 12 - Moth To A Flame

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want to have a good matchup against Volcarona. Not only willI have an unbreakable defense against Volcarona,
This is not unbreakable into Volcarona. Tera Ground destroys this duo (unless Dirge teras, and you have no real warning it is tera ground). While Ting-Lu can soft check it, it can only do so a couple times and is forced to click Whirlwind. Even in the event Dirge teras to try and win out vs Volc, this is still highly abusable by Volcarona's teammates (and it's a reason why having to depend on reactive teras to check broken or borderline threats is not a good sign).
 

Dead by Daylight

o green world, don't desert me now
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Back again with the replay analysis I promised in my last post. Just a quick thing before I dive into this:

Demanding replays is silly.
It's not, really. Again, the onus is on the pro-Ban side to say why Volcarona deserves to be banned, and support it with empirics, which replays are a form of (proof of concept at the highest level).

Anyways! On to the paragraphs of writing. Apologies if I miss anything, there are some replays that were not found for me after the blackout so correct me if I make any inaccuracies. Thanks.

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Bold indicates the player who was using Volcarona.

Meru vs. Maxouille - Volcarona was not used in this set.
mimilimi vs. zS - Volcarona was not used in this set.
yovan vs. ThiagoNunes - Volcarona was not used in this set.
Rubyblood vs. Insult - Volcarona was used twice in this set.
Rubyblood vs. Insult (G1) - Volcarona enters the spotlight on turn 14, where it is immediately forced out by Gouging Fire. It then comes back in on Turn 40 and Terastallizes Fairy against a Latios before getting a QD on the Gouging Fire switching in. Gouging Fire then proceeds to force it out yet again. Rubyblood tries again on turn 58, but yet again is forced out after burning three Morning Sun PP. Another attempt ensues on Turn 77, but Volcarona is forced out by a well-predicted Encore by Insult (perhaps Encore does have some effect against Volc?) Turn 81 becomes Volc's last stand, as it sets up to +3/+3/+3 on the Wisp Dragapult but then fails to KO the Gouging Fire and dies to Flare Blitz. Overall a very underwhelming game for Volcarona, constantly being forced out by Gouging Fire because it ran the incorrect Tera.

Rubyblood vs. Insult (G3) - Volcarona gets started early, finding a Quiver Dance on a double to Volcarona but then taking 48% on the Flip Turn to Galarian Slowking. This turns out to not matter, however, as Volcarona reveals the uncommon Substitute + Tera Bug Bug Buzz to take advantage of Galarian Slowking and OHKO a Tera Water Ting-Lu. Insult forfeits. This is an example of just how deadly Volcarona can be if it gets the right matchup.

DugZa vs. Amaranth - Volcarona was used once in this set.
DugZa vs. Amaranth (G1) - Volcarona comes in on Turn 8 against a Great Tusk but gets its HDB Knocked. It then Flamethrowers the Garganacl, before being forced out. Rocks go up against the HDB-less Volc, and it is sacrificed off on Turn 16.

Antonazz vs. Tace - Volcarona was not used in this set.
Floss vs. Storm Zone - Volcarona was used in all three games of this set.
Floss vs. Storm Zone (G1) - Floss loads Volcarona into a bulky team; it was never going to do much against a core of Dragonite + Clodsire + Skeledirge (hell, even Dondozo in a pinch), so this isn't very fair to hold against Volcarona. However, it illustrates how Volcarona struggles to make progress vs. defensive teams as well as thudding into some offensive staples like Dragonite if it runs the wrong Tera.
Floss vs. Storm Zone (G2) - Floss loads a HO this time, and in the HO mirror, Volcarona comes out on Turn 7 to revenge kill a Glimmora at 1% HP and Tera Grounds to hit a Protosynthesis Speed Gouging Fire before going to Hatterene. This proves to be its last meaningful interaction of the game, as it is sacked off on Turn 15.
Floss vs. Storm Zone (G3) - Storm Zone brings the same bulky team, and Volcarona predictably struggles to make any sort of progress, only throwing off one Bug Buzz against Dondozo before going down to a lucky Sleep Talk --> Wave Crash roll.

blunder vs. Twixtry - Volcarona was used once in this set.
blunder vs. Twixtry (G2) - blunder loads a bulky Volcarona against Twixtry running Skeledirge + Alomomola, a decent enough stopgap against Volcarona. On turn 5, Volcarona takes just 26% from a Flip Turn, revealing itself to be the bulky set, and Fiery Dances the Gliscor and gets the boost while it gets Toxic'ed in response. I assume blunder tried to make a predict by bringing Darkrai into Skeledirge? I'm not a top player, so I'm not sure, but the Volc switches out on the Gliscor's Protect. Gliscor then reveals itself to be Tera Water, putting yet another roadblock in Volc's sweeping plans. The Volcarona comes in on a Weavile Ice Shard, before blunder makes a good double to Roaring Moon on Twixtry's Skeledirge. Volcarona then throws off a Bug Buzz into Skeledirge on Turn 22, which proves to be its last action of the game.

Overall, Volcarona saw usage in 7 of the 21 games played (1/3 of all games played this round), although the stat may be a bit inflated by Floss bringing it all three games.

Antonazz vs. Rubyblood - Volcarona was not used in this set.
Twixtry vs. Storm Zone - Volcarona was used once in this set, in a ditto.
Twixtry vs. Storm Zone (G1) - Both players brought Volcarona here, with what seems to be a hail offense for Twixtry and a Volcanion offense for Storm Zone at first glance. Twixtry brings his Volcarona in on turn 3 to force out a Booster Energy Iron Valiant (this is some of the defensive utility that the DNB side states that Volc brings to the meta) before getting forced out in turn by Volcanion. Storm Zone sends out his Volcarona on Turn 13 (bulky Volc on account of how Lando outspeeds), but gets OHKOed by Rock Tomb. That proves to be the pivotal KO, as Twixtry cleans up with a timely Tera Ghost on Lando-T.

Maxouille vs. DugZa - Volcarona was not used in this set.
Thiago Nunes vs. zS - Volcarona was not used in this set.

Volcarona usage dropped off here, with only one use out of the 9 games played (although that use was in a Volcarona ditto). This perhaps reflects the inherent variability of Volcarona, and reaching this far into the tournament, players' reticence towards high-risk, high-reward choices.

Thiago Nunes vs. Storm Zone - Volcarona was not used in this set.
DugZa vs. Antonazz - Volcarona was not used in this set.

Volcarona was completely unseen in the semis, which is another strong indicator of its very polarizing highs and lows.

Storm Zone vs. Antonazz - Volcarona was used once in this set.
Storm Zone vs. Antonazz (G1) - Woah, is that the matchup moth? In the finals of OST? Wow. Anyways. The game begins with Volcarona coming in on a Draining Kiss from Primarina on Turn 1 and then immediately going to Wellspring. Volcarona comes in again vs. a x2 Speed Great Tusk on Turn 13 and doesn't proc the burn on Headlong Rush. A double switch on Turn 15 gives Antonazz some hope, but Volcarona can't OHKO the Gambit with Fiery Dance. SZ takes Game 1 and eventually the whole series.

Raptor vs. dasmer - To be fair to Volcarona, dasmer is loading a team with Unaware Clodsire as well as Extreme Speed Dragonite to revenge kill the Volcarona. It comes in first on turn 11 and gets Volt Switched on by Iron Crown, whereupon Dasmer goes to Gliscor and does major damage before going to Clodsire and forcing Volc out. It then gets sacrificed on turn 23 to try and get a Flame Body proc on Dragonite, which doesn't happen.
Bad Volcarona MU, Volcarona win, no Terastallization [0 kills]

Ash KetchumGamer vs. pdt - A Volcarona ditto, AKG's Volc gets set up on a Taunt Raging Bolt on Turn 7 and takes it out before doing 45% to Primarina and dying to Hydro Pump. pdt's Volcarona is never revealed, as his Roaring Moon sweeps the rest of AKG's team.
AKG's Volc: Ok Volcarona MU, no Terastallization [1 kill] | pdt's Volc: N/A (unrevealed)

Beraldo vs. DonSalvatore - Don loads his Volc into an interesting Sand team from Beraldo. On Turn 4, Don makes a play and goes to Volcarona on a predicted Excadrill Iron Head, getting the burn and killing the Exca next turn after it spun away the hazards. A combination of Tyranitar and Eject Putton Pex puts Volcarona in range to be taken out by Dragapult on turn 8.
Ok to Good Volc MU (depending on Tera), Volcarona win, no Terastallization [1 kill]

JJ09LIE vs. Finchinator - Finch loads his Volc into a team that seems pretty weak to it, with only Dragapult as a reliable stopgap that doesn't get blasted by Tera Blast Ground. Volcarona grabs a Quiver Dance on Turn 20 and looks poised to sweep, but a timely response in the form of Tera Water Glowking from JJ09LIE allows him to dance around the Volc, all while Toxic damage mounts. The Volcarona even reveals Morning Sun on turn 26 and takes out Skarmory, but it dies after.
Good Volc MU, Volcarona loss, Volcarona Terastallized (Ground) [1 kill]

Total:
Volcarona was used in 4/20 games (a 20% usage rate).
It had
1 bad matchup, 2 neutral matchups, and 1 good matchup.
It won 2 games and lost 1 game.
It got 3 kills in those four games.
It Terastallized in
1 game.

Thiago Nunes vs. gilbert arenas - Volc faces down a Primarina, a Wellspring, and a Raging Bolt. Can it do anything of note this match? Its first time in is on Turn 8, where it gets a Fiery Dance boost on Primarina and forces a Lando-T sacrifice. Wellspring comes in to revenge-kill it afterwards. Volcarona comes back in on turn 14, but gilbert makes a great double and goes to Waterpon to force it out. Waterpon then cleans up after an emergency Custap Primarina to stop Hawlucha.
Ok Volcarona MU, Volcarona loss, no Terastallization [1 kill]

Raptor vs. Shafofficiel - Using the famed Comfey team with a few tweaks, Raptor faces a pretty shaky team against Volcarona + Rillaboom with Shaf's only real answer to Volc being Prim which gets taken advantage of by Rilla or even by Giga Drain Volc. Volcarona comes in on Turn 6 against a Skarmory forced to Roost, and forces Shaf's hand as Raptor predicts the Prim/Glowking and goes to Rillaboom. Roaring Moon goes down to a Draco Meteor from Kyurem, and Volcarona comes back in against a 0.5x Kyurem. It grabs two Quiver Dance boosts and reveals Tera Fairy + Giga Drain, forcing Shaf to bring in Glowking off a Flip Turn. Primarina gets sacrificed, but Raptor keenly grabs another QD on the switch and it's looking all over...right until Shaf reveals Tera Water and Psyshock, knocking out Volcarona and keeping Shaf alive. The damage is done, however - the forced Tera on Glowking lets Comfey clean up the game.
Good Volcarona MU, Volcarona win, Volcarona Terastallized (Fairy) [1 kill]

DonSalvatore vs. Separation - Volc demonstrates its defensive utility by coming in on Enamorus on Turn 4. It gets very unlucky with two Special Attack drops in a row, however, and can't KO the Enamorus back (although it does get a lucky burn). Enam switches into Gouging, which takes approximately 4% from Flamethrower and forces out the Volcarona. Volcarona tries to proc a burn on Great Tusk's Rapid Spin, but it doesn't happen. It then gets sacrificed to Wellspring, and Tera Fairy Gouging Fire cleans up the game for Separation.
Ok to Good Volc MU (depending on Tera), Volcarona loss, no Terastallization

Finchinator vs. CTC - CTC loads Volcarona into a Sun team; not a great MU due to the fact that Wake exists and the two other Dragons can take it on somewhat decently. We never get to see the Volcarona, sadly, so this isn't a great replay.
Ok to Bad Volc MU (depending on Tera), N/A (unrevealed)

Xrn vs. zioziotrip - Zio loads Volcarona into a decent matchup, although it will rather likely struggle to sweep as most of its Teras and movesets either can be taken on by one of Xrn's Dragon-types or revenge killed by Scizor. Volcarona comes in on Turn 4 to punish Weavile's Triple Axel with a burn, an aspect of its defensive utility that sometimes goes under-the-radar. It then comes in on Scizor to try to punish a reckless CC or Knock, but doesn't get the burn on either turn. zio then reveals Will-o-Wisp Volcarona, a rather uncommon set, accompanied by Tera Steel to try to take on Roaring Moon. zio is forced to abandon that specific sweep attempt, but manages to render the Roaring Moon useless with a Ting-Lu Whirlwind. Mono-attacking bulky Tera Steel Volc manages to take on a heavily chipped Raging Bolt, a burned Roaring Moon, and Scizor to win the game. This is also another example of how Volc can manipulate its moveset and Terastallization to win in certain matchups.
Good (specific) Volcarona MU, Volcarona win, Volcarona Terastallized (Steel) [3 kills]


freezai vs. Akalli - Akalli loads up a HO against a bulky offense / balance from freezai. Akalli goes to Volcarona on Turn 8 and tries to get a Quiver Dance up, but gets Thunder Waved by Gholdengo and then Red Carded out by Ting-Lu. Volc comes in again on Turn 14 to, yet again, punish a reckless Triple Axel from Weavile. An untimely paralysis allows Weavile to freely remove Volcarona's boots, however. It manages to not be paralyzed again and gets off a Morning Sun, before thudding a Bug Buzz into Dragonite. NP + Hex + Thunder Wave + Tera Water Gholdengo cleans up for freezai after Dragonite encores Kingambit into Iron Head. EDIT: Apparently this Volc didn’t have a Fire move.
Ok Volc MU, Volcarona loss, no Terastallization

Total:
Volcarona was used in 6/20 games (a 30% usage rate).
It had no bad matchups, 4 neutral (1 to good and 1 to bad) matchups, and 2 good matchups.
It won 2 games and lost 3 games. (not counting unrevealed matches)
It got 5 kills in those six games.
It Terastallized in
2 games.

Raptor vs. Garay oak - Jesus, Raptor's seen Volcaronas for three weeks straight now. There is a Clodsire and Raging Bolt on Raptor's team (which can be broken through with Tera Ground, but still). Volcarona thuds a Fiery Dance off Clodsire on Turn 7 and promptly leaves, before getting Thunder Waved on Turn 20 while trying to set up. The two trade 33% damage, and Raptor goes to Clod as Volc Morning Suns and exits. Volcarona proceeds to bait a few double switches before Raging Bolt cleans up for Raptor.
(Moderately) Bad Volcarona MU (bar Tera Ground), Volcarona loss, no Terastallization

JJ09LIE vs. oldspicemike - JJ loads some Glimmora team with Arch that I can't really make heads or tails of, while oldspicemike loads a decent enough offense. Volc does nothing of note except force Gholdengo to Terastallize and do 19% before dying to two Hexes.
Ok Volcarona MU (depending on moveset), Volcarona loss, no Terastallization

Mimikyu Stardust
vs. Akalli
- Mimikyu loads Volc into a Stall team; predictably, it does approximately zero damage, gets Knocked incredibly early, and succumbs to hazards. A very poor MU for Mimikyu and Volc.
Bad Volcarona MU, Volcarona loss, no Terastallization

hellom
vs. lax
- Oh look, it's the same Comfey team that's been used these past few weeks. lax loads a very interesting Rain, precluding Volc's ability to do much except check Rilla and pray for a burn. Except...it actually starts doing something. It gets to +2 in exchange for being Toxic'd by Glowking, and claims Archaludon before dying to Future Sight + Toxic damage.
Bad Volcarona MU, Volcarona win, no Terastallization [1 kill]

shiloh
vs. Beraldo - A very interesting Volcarona ditto here. shiloh starts off by winning the Hisuian Samurott war and pivoting into Volcarona on Iron Valiant, taking it out in exchange for 67% of its health and losing its Heavy-Duty Boots. Great Tusk then comes in and takes out shiloh's Volcarona, while dodging the burn. shiloh's Roaring Moon gets into a very threatening position, only to be ruined by Beraldo's Volcarona sack proc'ing Flame Body. It ends up not mattering, however, as CM Prim sweeps the last two.
shiloh's Volcarona: Good MU, Win, no Terastallization [1 kill] | Beraldo's Volcarona: Ok MU, Loss, no Terastallization

Ash KetchumGamer vs. dahli - dahli loads some odd Veil offense, while AKG loads what looks like a Volcarona balance to me. Volcarona gets in on turn 29 but does barely anything, critting the Raging Bolt through screens before being forced out by the DD Dragonite. It then takes out the heavily weakened Dragonite, however. It manages to get up a Quiver Dance on Alolan Ninetales, and despite being Encored into Fiery Dance, manages to take out the Raging Bolt (at least if dahli hadn't forfeited).
Ok Volc MU, Volcarona win, no Terastallization [3 kills]

Finchinator vs. gilbert arenas - Yet another Volcarona ditto, gilbert sends his Volcarona out after his Wellspring "answer" in Kyurem gets walloped by Superpower (does this Wellspring not have Cudgel??). Finch, I assume predicting a Tera, swaps into Glimmora as gilbert simply Bug Buzzes. Finch's Volcarona comes in on Skarmory on Turn 10 and burns it as it attempts to Body Press. It then reveals Substitute; however, it gets forced out by Tera Water Garganacl. Wellspring reveals it never had SD as it Cudgels the protecting Gliscor on turn 20. gilbert tries to position his Volcarona against a Sub + Dragon Darts Dragapult and succeeds, taking it out and forcing Finch to Tera Water his Kingambit and play the 50/50 game. He gets it right, though, and the game goes on. Volcarona again forces out gilbert's Skarmory, and it falls eventually to a BU Tusk Ice Spinner crit. Finch cleans up from there.
Finch's Volcarona: Bad MU, Win, no Terastallization | gilbert's Volcarona: Ok MU, Loss, no Terastallization [1 kill]

Total:

Volcarona was used in 7/20 games, including 2 dittos (a 35% usage rate).
It had 4 bad matchups, 4 neutral matchups, and 1 good matchup.
It won 5 games and lost 4 games.
It got 6 kills in those six games.
It Terastallized in
none of its seven games.

ggggd vs. freezai - Freezai loads a Glimm HO with Volcarona into a Skeledirge balance structure - Tera Ground Volc can easily pressure Dirge, ggggd's main check to it, as well as switch in vs. Zamazenta to try and elicit a burn. It ends up not being able to use the MU to its advantage, presumably since it did not have the right Terastallization to hit Skeledirge, and ends up doing nothing and being foddered to the Skeledirge late-game after going for a couple of Bug Buzzes.
Ok Volcarona MU, Volcarona loss, no Terastallization

Beraldo vs. Separation - Another Volcarona ditto, Separation loads a Glimm HO with...Sinistcha, while Beraldo loads a pretty standard-looking offense. Separation goes for the jugular turn 1 and sends out Volcarona on the predicted Lando-T lead and gets up a QD while Beraldo gets off a Taunt. A Flamethrower from Volc does 73% to the Lando-T, and Beraldo gets his Rocks before fainting. Primarina comes in, but actually loses the 1v1 to Giga Drain Volcarona and dies. Beraldo goes to Gambit and Separation's Volc swaps out. Separation then gives away his Volcarona in order to reposition against a DD + Booster Roaring Moon, and just barely escapes with the bait into Red Card Glimmora. The Red Card, luckily for Separation, brings out Beraldo's Volcarona. SD Valiant sets up and Beraldo tries to hold on for dear life with a burn, but doesn't get it and Separation wins.
Beraldo's Volcarona: Ok MU, Loss, no Terastallization | Separation's Volcarona: Good MU, Win, no Terastallization [2 kills]

Srn vs. Thiago Nunes - Upon first glance, the MU looks decent enough for Srn's Volcarona if it is Tera Ground, since it beats its two main checks in Garganacl and Volcanion if so. Unfortunately, we don't get to know, as Srn's Zamazenta does IDBP Zama shenanigans and wins Srn the game.
Ok to Good Volcarona MU (depending on Tera), N/A (unrevealed)

Finchinator
vs. mncmt - Finch loads Volcarona into a team that is decently prepared for it, with Rillaboom able to revenge-kill it if Volcarona ever tries to Tera Ground to beat Garganacl. For Finch, running Volcarona on this team lets him compress a dangerous setup sweeper, a Weavile punisher, and a Steel killer in one slot. Volcarona comes in on Turn 20 off of a Landorus-T sacrifice and looks poised to claim at least one kill, but a smart Tera Fire Tera Blast from mncmt evaporates the Volcarona. While forcing defensive Terastallization is not a healthy dynamic in most cases, occasional use of defensive Tera is a decent counter-response to a Tera-burning threat like Volcarona.
Ok Volcarona MU, Volcarona win, no Terastallization


Total:

Volcarona was used in 4/20 games, including 1 ditto (a 20% usage rate).
It had 4 neutral matchups.
It won 2 games and lost 2 games.
It got 2 kills in those four games.
It Terastallized in
none of its four games.

Beraldo vs. dahli - Volcarona seems to have a pretty good MU here, the only real check to it is Garg which can be Tera Ground Tera Blasted to oblivion while it can find chances to set up if it, say, burns dahli's Weavile. We don't actually get to see the Volcarona until late on, where it reveals Tera Dragon to 1v1 the Tera Grass Garganacl and win.
Good Volcarona MU (considering Teras), Volcarona win, Terastallized (Dragon) [1 kill]

pdt vs. AcrOne - Acr brings what appears to be a Dark Spam team, where Volcarona is the team's buffer against Fairy-types. Volcarona seems to match up well into pdt's team, but it doesn't end up taking advantage of it. It takes out the weakened Landorus-T on turn 25, neatly avoiding a Taunt, before dying to the Tera Dark Kingambit.
Ok Volcarona MU, Volcarona win, no Terastallization [1 kill]

Raptor vs. crying - Raptor's Volcarona infestation continues. Notably, this is one of the first teams that featured Volc that was not a HO team.
To be completely honest, I don't understand the reasoning behind Volc on this type of team, but it manages to take on the utility Dragapult and fire off a few Flamethrowers against Raptor's bulky Luna balance. Volcarona then gets sacrificed to Ursaluna for momentum. Raptor didn't bring any of the big counters to Volcarona; instead, their team used a flexible backbone that had multiple points of failure against a Volcarona and several contingencies. Maybe Volc doesn't need dedicated counters on every team?
Ok Volcarona MU, Volcarona win, no Terastallization


gilbert arenas vs. Fc - Fc brings an interesting double Ghost + Hisuian Samurott spikestack, where Volcarona can burn things like Gambit if need be. The game gets off with a bang and by turn 4 Volcarona is already dead. Not the best performance from it, and Fc loses this game after being thrashed by Kyurem who got the first prediction on Volcarona correct.
Ok Volcarona MU, Volcarona loss, no Terastallization

MAVERICK SHOOTERS vs. Buhrito - Oh look, another offense! This time with Deo-S. Volcarona acts as the Rillaboom / Weavile / Fairy-type check for the team and forces Rillaboom out on turn 4. It then sets up on and 1v1s physical Tera Fire Tera Blast Kyurem under Veil, letting Mav run away with the game from there.
Good Volcarona MU, Volcarona win, Terastallized (Dragon) [4 kills]

myjava
vs. Kushalos - myjava brings, you guessed it, another offensive team against Kushalos's Webs. Volcarona looks okay into the team, although both Gouging Fire and Raging Bolt can cause it problems and Tera Ground gets snuffed out by Manaphy. We don't get to see the Volcarona sadly, so we will never know how good it would be into the team.
Ok Volcarona MU, N/A (unrevealed)

Total:

Volcarona was used in 6/20 games (a 30% usage rate).
It had 4 neutral matchups and 2 good matchups.
It won 4 games and lost 1 game.
It got 6 kills in those four games.
It Terastallized in
two of its six games.

Raptor vs. crying - This game stood out to me as a show of how you don't necessarily need a complete counter to handle Volcarona. Raptor's core of Alo/Glowking/Ting-Lu can handle Volcarona up to an extent, and it is way less of a momentum sink of a choice than Clodsire and Blissey while also having tons of other applications outside of just handling Volcarona.


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I'm going to go to sleep now, good night.


EDIT LOG:

4/16/24: added OST Top 16 + Weeks 1, 2, 3 of SPL
 
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As a general premise, preserving something because it checks Pokemon is a bad argument. If it’s broken, it should be banned. If not, of course it shouldn’t.

It’s really silly seeing the “oh Volcarona saves me from Moonblast from Valiant or Ice Beam from Kyurem” logic — if those things are broken after Volcarona goes, they will be handled as well. If we use this logic, the tier always remains the same. That’s totally fine if you like it and think nothing is broken, but then your argument should be that, not an argument about broken checking broken.
I personally find it a bit dishonest (and honestly just a complete twisting of logic) that every single example provided of Volc matching up fairly reasonably into the meta and being on par, not exceptionally above, other threats is being handwaved away with a simple "that's broken checks broken" claim, no, nobody is claiming Kingambit or Kyurem or Iron Valiant are broken, these are just all Pokémon that exist in the meta and are comparable to Volcarona in potency to quickly win games, and yes Volc matching well into them is a healthy thing

Can I ask, what examples of positive contributions to the meta ARE reason to not ban a Pokémon? There's certainly been precedent for this on Smogon eg Excadrill unban. Why not again? Where is the line?


No, but Volcarona is not holding back Iron Valiant from being broken in OU. In fact, Volcarona does not beat Iron Valiant's second best set and never wants to switch-in to Knock Off as is.

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that people trying to predict the future of the tier without Volcarona has nothing to do with how people vote...on Volcarona in a tier where it is allowed.

This premise has existed for as long as current generation tiering has: you tier for the current metagame and then worry about the future metagame in the future. You cannot predict every domino falling precisely after something is banned or unbanned, but you can evaluate the current metagame.

If your argument is Volcarona is not broken and should remain unbanned because of that, then by all means. In fact, I encourage it even. But if you think it is broken and just do not want to lose a counter to X, Y, or Z, then that is lazy and defeats the purpose of tiering at all. We are not here to theorymon about net positive vs net negative when tiering is not a single step process, but a generational one.
there is no theorymon, we played not one but two metas without Volcarona in them, home wasn't amazing but wasn't that bad but Kingambit was kind of a problem, dlc1 was ass because of grassy terrain and hard to break balance teams heavy on paralysis spam as well as Gholdengo, Volcarona solves All of these problems and choosing to by extension delete several Pokémon from the meta, or just create several problems and do nothing about them, would not be a good direction for the tier, which, fundamentally, through tiering action, is being designed. and we cannot call this "theorymon" because we have 2 trials of this; that is the definition of science. Fundamentally, I don't agree with the position that tiering should be done with zero foresight

Ps shitting on pais's very well reasoned and very well articulated post because in one paragraph he got a minor detail incorrect about something you tweeted, as well as urging people not to listen to him, is really not productive, nor does it do the facts he stated in the rest of the post justice
 
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I personally find it a bit dishonest (and honestly just a complete twisting of logic) that every single example provided of Volc matching up fairly reasonably into the meta and being on par, not exceptionally above, other threats is being handwaved away with a simple "that's broken checks broken" claim, no, nobody is claiming Kingambit or Kyurem or Iron Valiant are broken, these are just all Pokémon that exist in the meta and are comparable to Volcarona in potency to quickly win games, and yes Volc matching well into them is a healthy thing
I find it rather dishonest that you're handwaving or choosing to ignore context that people have provided where Volcarona can feel overbearing just because you want to fearmonger about a playstyle that hasn't been a problem, nor would it be a problem post Volc (GTerrain). No one is claiming Kyurem/Valiant/Gambit are broken you say? Then what's with the posts not so subtly hinting that Volc is holding the tier together against supposed giant threats?

Can I ask, what examples of positive contributions to the meta ARE reason to not ban a Pokémon? There's certainly been precedent for this on Smogon eg Excadrill unban. Why not again? Where is the line?
Nevermind that BW Exca was a past generation decision and you can still find some people who didn't agree with said decision (You can efven find some people who find modern Exca broken in that tier but that's not really relevant here), if a pokemon is broken it doesn't really matter what positives they bring to a tier.

there is no theorymon, we played not one but two metas without Volcarona in them, home wasn't amazing but wasn't that bad but Kingambit was kind of a problem, dlc1 was ass because of grassy terrain and hard to break balance teams heavy on paralysis spam as well as Gholdengo, Volcarona solves All of these problems and choosing to by extension delete several Pokémon from the meta, or just create several problems and do nothing about them, would not be a good direction for the tier, which, fundamentally, through tiering action, is being designed. and we cannot call this "theorymon" because we have 2 trials of this; that is the definition of science. Fundamentally, I don't agree with the position that tiering should be done with zero foresight
It is theorymon to claim the tier will go a certain direction post ban without any substantial evidence, and let's be completely clear: there is no evidence to suggest the tier will become balance heavy like it was in DLC1. That metagame was the result of a number of factors combining together. Several of those factors are less relevant now for a multitude of reasons and Volcarona is not the sole reason. The tier is much different than it was back then. You cannot claim Volcarona solves all these problems of DLC1 or that it keeps them at bay by itself. Even if some new problems do crop up in the wake of a Volc ban somehow, then they can be examined down the road. That's what tiering is for. Both the HOME and DLC1 metas are wildly different than now and are not evidence of anything that supports your claims.

Ps shitting on pais's very well reasoned and very well articulated post because in one paragraph he got a minor detail incorrect about something you tweeted, as well as urging people not to listen to him, is really not productive, nor does it do the facts he stated in the rest of the post justice
Seems like you have a seriously skewed bias here given you're flat out calling another poster's claims as "facts" despite them being opinions and their own experience.
 

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I personally find it a bit dishonest (and honestly just a complete twisting of logic) that every single example provided of Volc matching up fairly reasonably into the meta and being on par, not exceptionally above, other threats is being handwaved away with a simple "that's broken checks broken" claim, no, nobody is claiming Kingambit or Kyurem or Iron Valiant are broken, these are just all Pokémon that exist in the meta and are comparable to Volcarona in potency to quickly win games, and yes Volc matching well into them is a healthy thing
If that’s how you construed my posts, then I don’t know what to say beyond you need to re-read them.

I didn’t even take a stance yet in the thread. I just pointed out the flaws in the logic of “Volcarona checks X, so we should preserve it” would lead to anything with defensive merit remaining regardless of it being broken or not.

This is a simple premise and you twisting it out of proportion to this extent to try and claim I have some agenda is wild. I have posted the same numerous times in tiers discussions. This is not a novel concept. It predates my time in tiering and even on the site.
Can I ask, what examples of positive contributions to the meta ARE reason to not ban a Pokémon? There's certainly been precedent for this on Smogon eg Excadrill unban. Why not again? Where is the line?
Excadrill’s unban in BW was not current generation tiering and was one of the worst decisions in the history of tiering, creating massive inconsistencies and having strains on tiering to this day.

As I and others have said, tiering isn’t about finding perceived net positive vs net negative. It’s just about determine if something has enough counterplay or puts too large a strain on team construction and gameplay.
there is no theorymon, we played not one but two metas without Volcarona in them, home wasn't amazing but wasn't that bad but Kingambit was kind of a problem, dlc1 was ass because of grassy terrain and hard to break balance teams heavy on paralysis spam as well as Gholdengo, Volcarona solves All of these problems
This is just crazy. Volcarona doesn’t stop Kingambit and Grassy Terrain was only ever an issue due to Sneasler. Gholdengo issue had nothing to do with Volcarona and arguably wasn’t even an issue either. This is just revisionist history and a blatant misapplication of Volcarona’s defensive reach.
Ps shitting on pais's very well reasoned and very well articulated post because in one paragraph he got a minor detail incorrect about something you tweeted, as well as urging people not to listen to him, is really not productive, nor does it do the facts he stated in the rest of the post justice
He said to preserve Volcarona to counter Solgaleo. Solgaleo isn’t OU and never was said to be likely to be dropping. And if it were ever to drop, it wouldn’t fall for multiple months. And Volcarona hardly beats it. All I said was to ignore this logic as it makes no sense. If you construe that as incorrect, then that’s on you. You’re nitpicking rather than using actual substance. You haven’t once discussed actual checks or counters throughout all of your posts. I still haven’t taken a formal stance in this thread and yet you’ve painted me as the opposition because you can’t accept being called fundamentally wrong on some points. Perhaps take a second to think this through.
 
So I'm right now trying to get reqs, and I'll formulate my final opinion after I get them (or if I don't, a few tries of getting them). But right now, I'm leaning towards a ban. The fact of the matter is, Volc can pick and choose its counterplay to a somewhat extreme degree. Yes, there are a few good 'counters' but they either are 1. Limited to a specific playstyle (Blissey and such) or 2. Can't respond to it effectively if the Volc has the right tera and they have chip (Clodsire and such). Now, accounting for all of volcarona's sets in the teambuilder is able to be done, but this does not account for the fact that you have to either use tera (which if your main option to counter something is tera, isn't a good sign of that's mons healthiness) or be forced into very specific team structures.
Now, why is that an issue? Well, because the team also has to account for other metagame threats. When you have all of gambit, moon, waterpon and such running around, dedicating your resources to volc means the team will become a lot worse against said threats. (sidenote, just because x mon is more broken doesn't mean volc isn't broken, multiple mons can be broken. This does not diminish the brokeness of a mon) And even then, volc can still sweep teams that prepare for it if it decides to be quirky and go off the beaten path. But that's more theorymonning, so I won't use that as an arguement too much. It however, can adapt to counterplay quite easily as well. We have seen this through how the different tera's it uses have changed across even DLC2. Tera water was quite popular for a while in its ability to deal with heatran and help with other fire types, but when dragons were used to counter this set, tera dragon popped up to counter it.
The biggest things holding back volc is that it is a tera hog and its weakness to priority. The tera hog aspect is an limiting factor, but ultimately it is not as big as it seems. Most of the time, volc can take down something with tera and a competent player will not tera volc unless they believe they can sweep, and a majority of the time if they tera it will. It means that sometimes volc can't sweep, but that doesn't mean it isn't a threat, if teams have to overcompensate so it doesn't destroy them, that isn't healthy. Secondly, priority is something that does hurt volc, but not to a large degree. It resists two priority moves in grassy glide and ice shard. Thunderclap becomes less effective due to the mutliple special defense boosts volc gets from qd. Aqua jet is very, very scarce and is only even somewhat used on hamurott, who doesn't use it all the time, which compared to weavile and rillaboom, use priority 100% of the time. That leaves e-speed and sucker punch (notify me if there are ones I missed). Both have to be wary of flame body burns and gambit can't even switch in reliably and has to predict or revenge kill it (and is only guarented to ohko at 5 supreme overlord boosts). Thus, it isn't as big as it seems.
Overall, volc's counterplay while not specific, fitting that into the teambuilder is constraining and means teams are worse off against the rest of the metagame. Its weaknesses are not as large as they seem, as volcs traits means they can be overcome due to its inherent traits. This is a BAN for me.

Also, to the people who say that volcarona has valuable defensive utility for offensive teams while also being a sweeper that can't be replicated if its banned.
1713177244017.png

(and because I know somebody is going to come up with a rebuttal that is along the lines of "but it doesn't have xxx defensive utility of volc", sure, but it provides a ice resistance, grass resistance and fairy resistance (4x resists fairy, so its better than volc in that regard), which are the main reasons you use volc defensively on offensive teams. It's not a 1-1 replacement for volcarona, but its similar enough to where offensive teams can use other mons to replicate other parts, like using rocky helmet mons to punish u-turn. And many of the mons volc counters beside kyurem will not become broken without volc around.)
 
Might be better to try suspect laddering during the last 1-2days so u can avoid bumping into other ouww and just pray u get only newbies for an easier run, gl :) not worth riding the hype or fomo
 
Going to write my own post later, but I heavily disagree with these arguments. The argument that Volcarona is only broken because of tera blast and so tera blast is the problem is irrelevant because tera blast isn't being discussed right now. As well, nothing in the tier is able to exploit tera blast or tera to the extent that volcarona can; its like arguing that rage fist is the problem with annihilape so we should keep annihilape in the tier. It's irrelevant; tera blast is a tool most mons use fine that volcarona totally exploits to run away with games. This isn't a tera blast suspect, and we should vote under the assumption that tera blast is staying (because volcarona is the only mon that uses it like this).

As well, your second argument assuming tera blast being allowed is also flawed; literally every pro-ban speaker here has acknowledged that counters like blissey or clod exist. The issue is that these are the only true counters and they ONLY fit on hard stall, and that if you aren't literally playing stall, you're going to have a team that loses to a few random volc sets, which isn't healthy for the metagame.

As well, spd garganacl is great but not nearly as good as you think it is in this mu because volcarona can just tera out of its rock weakness into somethign that isn't taking a ton from salt cure, and can just keep qd'ing and roosting off the damage. This is important because Garg is really passive and so it can just get boosted on by volcarona. Also AV primarina is like a dogshit set that takes a ton of hazard damage every time it comes in but that's personal, the issue is that while volc can't counter every mon it can pick and choose its counters; it only really needs a neutral or positive tera blast to deal with this because it can get +2 spdef before AV prim has a chance to attack it and now surf does less then half, and it needs to pick between to actually damage volc at that point or noise to do little damage and stop potential healing for a turn, which volc can still avoid after 1 turn to either re-heal or giga drain because it will outspeed AV prim.

EDIT: Also for arguments that Valiant might be broken without volc; if it is, we'll ban it, but frankly SD is its scariest set rn imo and it cooks volc. More importantly though, we don't know if it will be broken without volc, and if it is, action will be taken against it. Keeping a broken threat in the tier because it keeps another broken in check is a bad idea and not good tiering.
Volcarona isn't the only problematic Tera Blast abuser rn imo, I would argue CB Pult runs away with a ton of games due to surprise factor as well. Also, even if we take banning tera blast out of the list of options, I don't think we will arrive at a more balanced metagame for banning volc. Like I said earlier, the problem isnt just jf Tera Blast is what makes Volc broken or not, it's that if we simply ban Volc it gets replaced with Iron Moth or something of similar nature.

Also, your Iron Valiant argument doesnt make sense. Problematic is not the same as broken. One thing is claiming that Kyogre is balanced because Eternatus is in the tier, another one is claiming that Iron Valiant's surprise factor can be limited by having a mon that is good into all of it's sets. These are not remotely comparable scenarios, and Volcarona limiting problematic pokemon can not be compared to a broken checks broken scenario.
 
Secondly, priority is something that does hurt volc, but not to a large degree. It resists two priority moves in grassy glide and ice shard. Thunderclap becomes less effective due to the mutliple special defense boosts volc gets from qd. Aqua jet is very, very scarce and is only even somewhat used on hamurott, who doesn't use it all the time, which compared to weavile and rillaboom, use priority 100% of the time. That leaves e-speed and sucker punch (notify me if there are ones I missed). Both have to be wary of flame body burns and gambit can't even switch in reliably and has to predict or revenge kill it (and is only guarented to ohko at 5 supreme overlord boosts). Thus, it isn't as big as it seems.
I wanted to add here that it can also ruin Scizor's Bullet Punch (which I've been using in my team in the 1800s and also in the team I got the reqs with) with Flame Body + Resist. I think that Flame Body in Volc as a whole just makes it even more toxic and suffocating in the tier.

In fact, I don't like how the thread in general talks about Volc as if the match was a 1v6 aganist it. Of course idk, Blissey or Garg+Dirge wins aganist, but then you can pair the Volc with a wallbreaker like RMoon, late game gambit, Waterpon or Raging Bolt... Then what? Like stall has its merit and it has become a much better playstyle this last two months (which is good for diversity) but it's not like it's unbreakable or something.

Of course Volc has answers but (in my experience, maybe I'm just bad in the builder) making a team right now that covers mostly all threads is extremely hard.
There's too much stuff in tier you need to prepare for with only six slots. And if the mon you've chosen for Volc happens to lose aganist the tera it decides to pick, you most of the time will lose on the spot. It's not a healthy dynamic
 
Volcarona isn't the only problematic Tera Blast abuser rn imo, I would argue CB Pult runs away with a ton of games due to surprise factor as well. Also, even if we take banning tera blast out of the list of options, I don't think we will arrive at a more balanced metagame for banning volc. Like I said earlier, the problem isnt just jf Tera Blast is what makes Volc broken or not, it's that if we simply ban Volc it gets replaced with Iron Moth or something of similar nature.

Also, your Iron Valiant argument doesnt make sense. Problematic is not the same as broken. One thing is claiming that Kyogre is balanced because Eternatus is in the tier, another one is claiming that Iron Valiant's surprise factor can be limited by having a mon that is good into all of it's sets. These are not remotely comparable scenarios, and Volcarona limiting problematic pokemon can not be compared to a broken checks broken scenario.
CB Pult is nowhere close to broken, and even then its nowhere near as popular (30% of dragapults sets use tera blast, while 26% use choice band. Not all band sets will use tera blast and not all tera blast sets will use choice band, so about 20% of dragapult sets if we are being generous, more like 15%). Despite me saying that iron moth is similar enough to volc to fill defensive niches on offensive teams, it is nowhere close to the level of broken that volc is. Nothing in the tier can abuse tera blast like volc does and also boosts its offenses and speed. Iron moth has a one time use for its speed and has to rely on fiery dance boosts to truely destroy teams (and due to needing to ev correctly to get booster speed, it has less special attack then volc).
Yes, problematic is just broken before it is broken most of the time. If something is 'problematic' than it needs to be examined if its broken. Valiant is nowhere close to broken, can we please stop saying that. Maybe when SV released, the HOME metagame and the start of DLC1, yes (and the start of DLC1 I don't think it was), but due to general powercreep, its nowhere near broken now. Again, sd valiant destroys volc, especially if they have liquidation. If something is limting problematic mons, that is basically broken checks broken. It is not different, if a mon becomes broken because something is banned, then that is textbook definition of broken checks broken.
 

658Greninja

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there is no theorymon, we played not one but two metas without Volcarona in them, home wasn't amazing but wasn't that bad but Kingambit was kind of a problem, dlc1 was ass because of grassy terrain and hard to break balance teams heavy on paralysis spam as well as Gholdengo, Volcarona solves All of these problems and choosing to by extension delete several Pokémon from the meta, or just create several problems and do nothing about them, would not be a good direction for the tier, which, fundamentally, through tiering action, is being designed. and we cannot call this "theorymon" because we have 2 trials of this; that is the definition of science. Fundamentally, I don't agree with the position that tiering should be done with zero foresight
-Archaludon also helped keep Kingambit in check while having excellent defensive utility, but it was so broken on Rain it had to be banned.

-OU has several ways of breaking Balance. I don’t think we need Volc’s contributions to do so. Also Volc is not that good vs Balance to the point it “solves the matchup”. Volc isn’t even the one stopping paralysis spam from rising, its Garg, Gliscor, and Raging Bolt.

-Grassy Terrain teams were never a problem. We took out Sneasler who was the main issue and everything was fine. Plus Rilla, like I said before, contributes to the tier by handling matchups like Prima, Garg, and Offense. How is this exactly a bad thing?

-Ghold will not be a problem in DLC2 without Volc. Balance has several options to handle Ghold.

You could also bait in Ghold with Defog Corv and U-Turn into AV Hoopa, Samu, Darkrai, or any breaker that exploits Ghold.

Can I ask, what examples of positive contributions to the meta ARE reason to not ban a Pokémon? There's certainly been precedent for this on Smogon eg Excadrill unban. Why not again? Where is the line?
Funny you mentioned Excadrill, cause you’re not ready to hear what the BW OU playerbase has to say about Drill today. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...nd-now-some-tiering-discussion.3734115/page-2
 
I'll be voting ban on Volcarona too.

That current metagame is overloaded with too much threats, and each player have their own vision on what is broken and what is not. Some players might find Ogerpon too much for the metagame, others think Zamazenta is the culprit. Pais pointed this out, the most broken threats have the ability to abuse tera, and I agree. This metagame looks like a 'broken checks broken' type, and that's something I really enjoy.

However, I think there is an asymetry in the tier rn, and it is mostly because of tera sweepers that can pick their counterplays. The three threats that really pushes that idea to extreme levels are Volcarona, Kingambit and Gouging. In the cases of Gouging and Kingambit, people found reliable counterplays, that require some techs and metagame knowledges to make those threats work (mental herb Kingambit is great against encore offense). Volcarona doesn't get the same logic, each set can be considered as meta defining to me, and tera versatility enables it to remove a supposed check. Dragon, water, grass, water, fairy, bug are all great teras on Volcarona, without being too much of a matchup fish. Rock and steel are also usable, and I wouldn't even be surprised to see people running something like tera dark, poison or ghost later on.

Volcarona's insane ability to pick its checks and break that symetry in 'broken checks broken' makes it obnoxious into the builder and ingame, so I'll be voting ban. People have their opinion on that topic, but I'd like them to rely their analysis on the metagame's flow, not only on statistics. Roaring Moon got banned during DLC1 based on statistics, but its winrate got inflated by Sneasler grassy teams, where Roaring Moon fits really well. Trying to analysis a tier's dynamic might be better, especially with tera, that pushes people to act in a more proactive way.
 
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Surprise, I'm voting ban.

I don't actually think Volcarona is the most broken thing in the tier right now, I actually think just behind Waterpon and Kyurem. However, it's still broken.
Volc has always been questionable and has always been seen as the Match-Up Moth, but I think its base kit essentially gives it the tools to use tera as effectively as it does to amplify what it's always been able to do. Before tera, volc has a few things that mean it's able to snowball; It has quiver dance, it has flame body which pairs very well with its typing, it has great stats, boots, fiery dance and reliable recovery. These are all an important part of the picture of what makes Volc broken. Quiver Dance is a stupid move that boosts its offenses, defenses, and speed all in one. It being special instead of physical is important because you can't use rocky helmet chip or intimidate to slow it down like you can with DD users like RM and Dnite. It's an insane snowball tool because it improves your mu into offensive teams and defensive teams all in one; the only other things with QD off the top of my head is Lilligant (bad stats, no coverage) and Frosmoth (ice/bug lmao), neither of which have the tools to make use of QD like volc can. The SpD boost volc gets make it harder to revenge kill on the special side with its already solid special bulk, or even in general with its alright speed. QD makes both of these harder, and so killing it on the physical side would be fine, except for the second problem; it gets flame body. Flame body is dumb as hell on volc because of certain lines in play; it both gives volc a much easier time setting up and makes it harder to revenge. Volc's physical defense is usually worse then it's special defense, and so it often becomes fairly easy to throw it out into physical attackers in the hopes that it lands a burn. If it does, not only is your physical attacker crippled for the rest of the game, but it now probably has to switch out because it likely can't outdamage any healing volc decides to do or can't revenge it before volc hits it with fiery dance or sets up on it. This means that a burn proc gives Volc a much easier time setting up because it negates its less bulky physical side, which it can't boost with QD. Similarly, Volc now becomes harder to revenge kill because of the chance of a burn proc on physical attacks means your hesistant to throw out a physical move onto its less bulky side because even if it hits, if you burn your revenge killing attempt not only might be ruined and so volc can keep setting up, but you also cripple your mon for the rest of the game. Flame body is RNG reliant, but it pairs extemely well with QD because it can functionally give volc way more physical bulk. It's typing would be dogshit because rocks is everywhere, but Volc can just throw on boots, and unlike something like Moltres or Talonflame, even IF its knocked off, it can still just go for a sweep with flame body and fiery dance cheese anyways. Sure, on balance it wants its defensive presence, but on somehting more offensive there's no downside to it trying to blow a hole in the enemy team with a sweep the second it gets knocked.

Finally, it has fiery dance, which is also stupid because it has a 50% chance to boost your SpA on a mon who is already known for snowballing. If you switch in a defensive answer, Volc proccing the fiery dance boost means that your answer is now way less reliable, and thats also forgetting that this can happen MULTIPLE TIMES IN A ROW; Volc has a 25% if it clicks Fiery Dance twice to hit +3 spA, +1 SpD, +1 Speed after a QD, which is insane and makes defensive counterplay (because you're not outspeeding it at +1 unless your a scarfer/booster speed/grasspon tera) much harder. As an example, if Pult switches in on Offensive Volc when it QDs, Volc actually has a 50% chance of beating it even without tera-ing because it can coin flip for the fiery dance boost, and if that hits, can guaranteed finish it off with bug buzz. That's also forgetting burn procs, which depending on how often you throw it out on uturns, can also net multiple burns. Now, yes, this relies on RNG, and the chance of hitting +3 SpA while also burning multiple enemy pokemon is low; however, the point is that Volc has the tools to cheese its counterplay and make snowballing much easier ALREADY, before discussing tera.

When adding in Tera, Volc gets to pick and choose its counterplay entirely. Volc's big issues are that it's typing is incredible rocks-weak and it doesn't have fantastic coverage; boots really helps with the rocks-weakness (functionally entirely on offense) and tera not only means it can avoid rocks but similarly gives it another turn to setup/attempt a sweep AND fixes its coverage issue. Things like Heatran or Dirge which would blank it before now get smoked by tera-ground. Mons like Dnite/Pult/GF lose to Tera-Dragon, which also solves its water weakness. Stuff like Prim and Ting Lu gets smoked by tera grass giga drain. Something like Garg can't threaten it nearly as well once it tera's because salt cure now does minimal damage and it might either have giga drain or morning sun. This is important because this defensive counterplay getting smoked means that not only is your team now much more vulnerable to other threats on the offenses volc finds itself on, but because of how hard it is to offensively revenge kill it thanks to QD/Flame body. There is a reason this is one of the only mons that consistently runs tera-blast, an otherwise dead moveslot; because you get so much value from tera-ing that it's worth it. It's also worth noting that prior to this gen, Fiery Dance was not in the recommended movesets for Volcarona at all, and now it is; because tera means it can leverage its snowball potential to win games on the spot. Now, Volc cannot beat all its checks with one set, but the point is that not only can it cheese its way to a sweep even without tera (thereby potentially not needing it) but that you don't know which set its running until it might've procced some burns, gotten a QD boost and a fiery dance boost on top of that. If I switch toxic glowking into it after a QD boost and it clicks sub, my defensive counterplay gets a lot harder, especially because it can continue to snowball to be harder to revenge kill and it can tera and go for the sweep. Yes, just because one mon's set has a good matchup into a team doesn't make it broken, but Volc's capacity to snowball and the lack of knowledge surrounding tera and sets means a single mistake can allow the volc to get lucky and pull off a sweep or just demolish your team. This is unique to Volc; no other mon either uses tera or tera blast this way or can hax like it because of the sheer amount of snowballing tools it has pre-tera.

Volc does have counterplay; CM Blissey and Clod are the only counters but these only fit on hard stall, so they're not splashable at all. Other then that, it has checks, and that's it. Skeledirge and Heatran exist but both get smoked by ground and neither are all that splashable, and heatran kinda sucks if I'm being honest (your counterplay as heatran is pray magma storm hits). Dirge is better but hard to fit when you're already struggling to cover as many threats on balance as you are. Dragons like Dnite, Pult, Bolt and Gouging Fire exist but the former two lose to wisp sets even without tera, Pult is frail enough where it gets cheesed by offensive volc anyways, and they all lose to tera dragon and only Dnite doesn't lose to tera ground. Waters like Prim exist but it needs to be AV to actually stand a chance (dogshit) and also can just lose to giga drain anyways. Garg can check it but counterplay becomes a lot harder if its giga drain volc, or if it teras at all to be honest because then Garg can't put as much pressure on it with Salt Cure and it can boost/heal up in its face. Ting Lu can phaze it but again, gets cooked by Giga Drain OR Bug Buzz and phazing it can help but is a temporary stopgap more then anything; it just means you have to face the volc sweep later in the game. GKing with Psyshock and Toxic is also great counterplay, but it NEEDS those two moves to actually reliably check it; toxic gets cooked by any substitute set, ausma has mentioned how twave just means it keeps boosting in its face. Importantly though, GKing is already one of the only things stapling balance together right now and outside of the mandatory CR it has three moveslots that are heavily being competed for. It needs psyshock and toxic to reliably check Volc, but it ALSO wants twave for faster threats, future sight for breaking, sludge bomb for fairies/poison fishes, ice beam for grounds/gliscor/dragons, flamethrower/focus blast for steels, slack off for recovery and more. It's already forced to do a TON on teams anyways, and the only way it reliably beats Volc is by devoting 2/3 of its available moveslots to it. That's not healthy, and to be honest, I would argue that devoting those moveslots for Volcarona is close to mandatory right now with how prevalent it is; wihtout them, it can get cheesed and outright lose. It has already been commented on that we lack great fire resists right now for special mons, and Volc exacerbates this by either being able to cheese all the available ones so it can spam fiery dance and snowball even more.

Now for some counterarguments:
"Volc is stopping Kyurem, Valiant and Enamorus from running wild and provides valuable defensive utilty to the tier": I don't care. This is not only barely true but frankly isn't an argument about Volc's brokenness at all. Volc loses to specs Kyu draco outright, it loses to the best val set, being SD, so it actually DOESN'T keep it in check at all outside of mixed and CM sets, and Enamorus is whatever. If you need something for Kyurem or Fairies, glowking is right there.
Importantly though, tiering isn't a pros and cons list, to reference Finch, its about banning something if it's broken. These arguments are therefore non-starters; they do not touch on things that matter for tiering at all. If Valiant or Enamorus are broken (or problematic) after the Volc ban, they will be looked at. It quite literally has no bearing in this debate. It's really just fearmongering, which has no place in this thread.
This is not mentioning Rillaboom, which.... ???? Rillaboom isn't broken at all, GTerrain was only a problem with Sneasler, there are a plethora of grass resists in OU. Rillaboom is great but it's not the threat certain users think it is.

TLDR it was always stupid and tera lets it leverage that. Ban.
 
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RoiDadadou

Banned deucer.
Alright. Now that I'm done with the requs and have played a few ARAM to cool off.


The metagame right now, and I weight my words as I'm probably the biggest SV simp of this whole thread, being a defender of Tera and Gen 9 as a whole since day one and still now, is in a ridiculous state. It's not feasible to handle all of those things back to back to back.

I will be voting Ban on Volcarona, because I believe it, alongside a few criminals in the tier, deserves another boot than the Heavy Duty ones. It's not just a question of threats, it's a matter of oppression on the builder. I believe Volcarona and Ogerpon-W, as well as probably Kyurem, and maybe Gouging, have to go from the tier, but one thing at a time.

I won't waste time blabling about why the Moth is a ridiculous constraint in this metagame, bypassing half of its checks, people have eluded on it way better than I will at 9PM, and if you did not play against it because you did not get requs, that's not my problem here.

What I want to suggest, if we get another DnB on a Pokémon so fundamentally dishonest that he spearheaded the very concept of cheese HO for the last five generations, is that we approach this differently.


If no one can agree on even this aberration, then we need to use the two times vote suspect test like we did in the past for Tera.

  • First question: do you feel like action, in the form of a ban, is needed in the metagame ?
  • Second question: order the following top to bottom from the most troublesome thing in your opinion to the least troublesome: (list of Volcarona, Ogerpon, Gouging, Kyurem, whatever you slot in here but put a lof of them so people have choices).

If action gets the majority, the options will be weighted depending on the order they were entered in. If it does not, then we just go on with the metagame. I know this option is not popular, but most of us agree that a ban is needed, but can't agree on what. So let's all be of good faith, vote that we want a ban to happen, and then throw our opinions, debate and speak as usual. But let's make it interesting and worth it.

TLDR : Ban Volc, and make a second suspect before main stage of WCoP (Ogerpon please). If we get nothing from that, make an 'action suspect test', like the Tera one.

We made the right decision once by being the first Generation to ban this stupid and cheesy Pokémon, let's make SV OU great again. We have a bright path in front of us.

So stop asking for changes, and got get your requs.

TLDR2 : AK bad cop, RoiDadadou good cop.
 
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First off, shoutout Dead by Daylight for compiling replays in one spot, appreciate that.

I think one thing that some people tend to forget during these debates is the on-paper vs practice argument. While a lot of people end up posting how volc can pick its checks and usually sweeps, I don't often find that to be the case.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-742696

Here's a replay that stuck out to me at first glance. Looking at the mu, if Don is either tera ground or can force chip on the gouging fire, volc can qd on a couple things and threaten a kill while also being able to come in multiple times. An ok -> solid mu for the volc purely on its own. However, we see in the battle that as its the only fairy resist, it is needed to act as a check to the enam, meaning it never actually gets a chance to set up. Obviously I cherry picked the replay to prove a point, but this kinda shows how the ideal situation where the volc gets in at 100% on something and clicks qd doesn't happen every game like some people think, as it happens more than people assume.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-742038?p2

I kinda wanted to highlight a game where it won to show that I'm not gonna completely ignore the moth's capabilities. However, there are 2 takeaways from this game that I want to highlight. The first is the obvious, being that tera steel + wisp is quite possibly the best set into xrn's team. Watching through other replays, such a case almost never occurs to this extent. The other point is illustrated in how early game volc acts as a blanket check to some physical attackers. Look at zio's team without volc and look at weavile. Point is, volcarona does, in fact, provide good utility even when it isn't immediately clicking qd.
As a general premise, preserving something because it checks Pokemon is a bad argument. If it’s broken, it should be banned. If not, of course it shouldn’t.
voting dnb on something because it checks a lot of things or because something else will become broken in its absence is wrong. "broken checks broken" is not a state of the meta we should accept, and we can never really guarantee that something else will become broken in the future. focus on the present
These were the 2 things I remember on this point.

I don't agree with this point 100%, and I felt roughly the same way about Gouging Fire. If a mon is on the fence, aka not either quickban worthy or broken in the case of ss dracovish, this can totally be used as a way to decide. For instance, I really couldn't care less whether or not gouging was banned off its offensive prowess alone. But as it wasn't truly broken, I opted to vote to keep it as it provided defensive utility. I'm just repeating shit at this point, but Volc for me is the same. Sure it can win games, but it doesn't do so at the levels that some people think it does, and in addition, keyword, it helps to check a lot of prevalent mons in the tier.

Something that CTC said during the Gouging Fire suspect highlights how this should be looked at. At the end of the day, we should strive to keep to minimum bans, so if a mon isn't completely broken, we should let the metagame sit until the mon proves otherwise. Can't speak on building, but I do not find volc to be overwhelming, really at all, in-game. Couple that with it having a positive presence in the meta even if it doesn't get to click dd, and I think its a mon worth keeping. Keep Volcarona.
 
If a mon is on the fence, aka not either quickban worthy or broken in the case of ss dracovish, this can totally be used as a way to decide.
i'd like to point out that there's an entire spectrum of broken between "ss dracovish" and "borderline" that we can't just ignore. there are several different categories of broken:
  • classic broken. this is when a mon doesn't have a big stupid nuke move or wacky gimmick or whatever. it's just some combination of too strong, too fast, or too fat, possibly also a really good movepool/ability, and the meta can't deal with it. basically every box legendary falls under this category, along with stuff like dpp garchomp, xy hoopa-u, and dlc1 roaring moon
  • signature broken. this is when there's a mon-exclusive thing that is the main (and sometimes the only) thing breaking the mon—a signature or near-signature move or ability, or a combination of the two. signature items and forms can also be a part of this. archaludon and annihilape are two prominent examples from this gen; previous gens had things like gen 6/7 aegislash and soul dew lati@s
  • temp-broken. this is when something is only broken because of some unique mechanic from the meta it's currently in, which is either nerfed or absent in future gens. examples from this gen include regieleki, terapagos, and pre-dlc/dlc1 volcarona (still unsure about the current volc but it'd be here too). past examples include bw excadrill (pre-sand rush ban), every broken mega, and literally every single pokemon in dynamax-era gen 8
  • uncompetitive broken. this is when a mon is broken because it's uncompetitive beyond an acceptable level and the uncompetitive element can't be separated from the mon. examples are scarce because most uncompetitive elements are able to be separated from the mons that carry them; the largest example of a mon that's broken because of uncompetitiveness is skymin. wynaut and wobbuffet also fell prey to this in gens 3 and 4
  • modern broken. this is when a mon is just straight-up stupid and no skill is required to play it. examples include dracovish, bloodmoon, and every single thing that's been quickbanned in this godforsaken gen that i haven't already mentioned
what you're insinuating is that mons have to be modern broken to not be considered "on the fence", and that's just not right. nor should the fate of something that is on the fence be decided by how many other mons it checks or how uniquely useful its defensive role is. you're trying to use "it's not broken and it checks things" as your argument when you should just be using "it's not broken". there doesn't need to be a specific reason to keep something in the tier, there just needs to be a specific reason to kick something out. "i don't think it's broken because it doesn't carry like people think it does" is a perfectly valid argument in and of itself and doesn't need any additions to it. there doesn't need to be a "deciding factor"
 
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Got the reqs during my lunch break, I don't think volc is unmanageable but I will vote ban anyways cos the amt of people I faced trying to cheese me with a fat volc setting up multiple qd turn 1-3 is insane but it failed :( Also all the ouww clowns who I "haxed" with a speed tie and had to cry about it, acting as if I didn't get unlucky with ppl gritting my setup mon that would win don't see me complaining :L
 

Pais

MALDINI
is a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Tutor Alumnus
Pais also talked about keeping Volcarona with the hopes for a Solgaleo unban suspect when you have repeatedly indicated to not theorymon about what happens to the tier after a ban, and given you've ruled out further Uber drops for now, it seems like an attempt to either fish for likes or just blatant disregarding what the OU Council has decided on.
Not really. I don't hope a shit. I've already found so much fucked up the Deoxys and Darkrai Unbans, I don't want more things unbanned. I've said that I'm not encouraged to vote ban also because there has been a discussion and a remote chance to get unbanned some mon and I find it crazy since the meta is already fucked up.

Yea, that's just nonsense altogether; I would ignore his post. There is no discussion of any Ubers for multiple months and, even then, it will take lots of community support and metagame shifting for that to be a reality. Never saying never of course, but that logic is a leap and best to disregard.
Also Finch said that "the logic" behind my post is incorrect but I always vote on suspects thinking about the consequences of a possible ban/unban and personally knowing that nobody will ever take action on some mon that might be broken without Volcarona, then I just prefer to vote not ban because it's not in my interest to play a more fucked up meta, but personally I prefer to follow my idea of "good meta". Wcop will be soon and I don't want to play a more fucked up meta.


I don't really care (no offense, not a personal attack but I'm a professional) what council says to do, but everyone is free to theorymon especially after this:
Screenshot_2024-04-17-09-48-08-061_com.twitter.android.jpg

How I should trust and put the future of the meta in the hands of people who CONSIDERED (I don't care if it was a joke or not) things like Lando-I or Solgaleo to get unbanned?

I respect the effort at least to try to fix an unsavable tier, but I don't see why I should have my ideas necessary aligned to the tiering policy or council ones. Every idea to keep or to ban Volcarona should be considered legitimate. Everyone is free to have an opinion that can go over the policy.

The Ubers unban stuff etc was also not the main goal of my post if you can just read better.
I've said that it's not in my interest losing a check for kingambit, zama, gholdengo, valiant, deoxys, darkrai etc. that will never get banned anyway like every recent mon that is not named Archaludon.
 
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Not really. I don't hope a shit. I've already found so much fucked up the Deoxys and Darkrai Unbans, I don't want more things unbanned. I've said that I'm not encouraged to vote ban also because there has been a discussion and a remote chance to get unbanned some mon and I find it crazy since the meta is already fucked up.

I don't really care (no offense, not a personal attack but I'm a professional) what council says to do, but everyone is free to theorymon especially after this:

How I should trust and put the future of the meta in the hands of people who CONSIDERED (I don't care if it was a joke or not) things like Lando-I or Solgaleo to get unbanned?
If you don't care that Finch said it's a joke and told us NOT to talk about Ubers being dropped as a reason to save Volc because it won't happen - why even bother posting in the first place bc it seems like you're not willing to talk about the fact that you're voting DNB for something that is literally not happening? Just hold your opinion and vote DNB.
 

Pais

MALDINI
is a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Tutor Alumnus
I've not said I don't care, I've said that I don't find it professional and since there has been some precedent with unbanning deoxys, darkrai, zama and some overpowered mon I don't want really to take the risk. But anyway as I've said (if only you people would read the entire post...) I won't vote ban because Volcarona already checks some overpowered mon and I don't see the tier getting instantly better without it. Nothing more, nothing less.
It's up to you and not to me if you all want to understand the reasoning behind my will to vote not ban.
 
imagine talking so much about so much random things when by banning a single mechanic all this shit wouldn't even exist.


If you don't care that Finch said it's a joke and told us NOT to talk about Ubers being dropped as a reason to save Volc because it won't happen - why even bother posting in the first place bc it seems like you're not willing to talk about the fact that you're voting DNB for something that is literally not happening? Just hold your opinion and vote DNB.
lol? like.. lol? There were some REAL discussions on Lando-I being OU so that excuse doesn't even hold anymore.

But ye voting dnb has so many diff reasons.
 
imagine talking so much about so much random things when by banning a single mechanic all this shit wouldn't even exist.



lol? like.. lol? There were some REAL discussions on Lando-I being OU so that excuse doesn't even hold anymore.

But ye voting dnb has so many diff reasons.
People voted DNB on tera, whether you like it or not, so its staying. Also, I doubt many of the bans that have occured would not occur because of tera. Do they increase the power of a mon? Yes, but gambit doesn't need tera to reverse sweep you and moon doesn't need tera to be a menace.
The Lando-I unban discussion was at the start of the HOME metagame (the recent discussion on it was a joke), when things were a lot different and they could potentially be alright for the meta, due to Gen 9's immense power creep. You are comparing two wildly different things, council always looks at mons to unban when they are reintroduced to the game/the new gen starts. That has been consistent for a long while.
 

RoiDadadou

Banned deucer.
imagine talking so much about so much random things when by banning a single mechanic all this shit wouldn't even exist.



lol? like.. lol? There were some REAL discussions on Lando-I being OU so that excuse doesn't even hold anymore.

But ye voting dnb has so many diff reasons.
The only Pokémon banned's cases that would change after a Tera Ban are either already unhealthy without the mechanic, or just pure UU/UUBL cheesy sets that you'll run maybe once in a tour. You should all stop caping on the mechanic, there are some good and valid arguments, altho not a lot, against Tera, but 'we could unban things that no one wants/needs' is not one of them.

It's been a year, grow out of it.
 
People voted DNB on tera, whether you like it or not, so its staying. Also, I doubt many of the bans that have occured would not occur because of tera. Do they increase the power of a mon? Yes, but gambit doesn't need tera to reverse sweep you and moon doesn't need tera to be a menace.
The Lando-I unban discussion was at the start of the HOME metagame, when things were a lot different and they could potentially be alright for the meta, due to Gen 9's immense power creep. You are comparing two wildly different things, council always looks at mons to unban when they are reintroduced to the game/the new gen starts. That has been consistent for a long while.
Yes but the thought of the mech being so broken it actually allows TOO MANY people voting and ruining a meta that COULD be fun has got just to me? Idts.

And what does Gambit/Moon still being menacing have to do with banning a broken mech? We should keep tera just because 4/5 mons would be broken? And isn't 4/5 broken mons that could be banned postwise better than 10? Better than coinflip after coinflip every single game in the meta of Sucker/Tclap/Upperhand?

And even if gambit/moon w/e you say would still be broken, don't you think they'd still be A LOT more manageable w/o the tera? Gambit literally dies to a vwave/zama presence, Moon could actually be a prob but many builds w/o tera can face it, and even if it wasn't unfaceable you could suspect him in a more reliable meta.

And I'm not even mentioning the Lando-I thing, it's not even worth talking about it.

But that's ok, if keeping every single broken mon on the tier is the answer to make the playerbase realize this nonsense mechanic then so be it and vote dnb.
 
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