Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 12 - Moth To A Flame

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Yes but the thought of the mech being so broken it actually allows TOO MANY people voting and ruining a meta that COULD be fun has got just to me? Idts.

And what does Gambit/Moon still being menacing have to do with banning a broken mech? We should keep tera just because 4/5 mons would be broken? And isn't 4/5 broken mons that could be banned postwise better than 10? Better than coinflip after coinflip every single game in the meta of Sucker/Tclap/Upperhand?

And even if gambit/moon w/e you say would still be broken, don't you think they'd still be A LOT more manageable w/o the tera? Gambit literally dies to a vwave/zama presence, Moon could actually be a prob but many builds w/o tera can face it, and even if it wasn't unfaceable you could suspect him in a more reliable meta.

And I'm not even mentioning the Lando-I thing, it's not even worth talking about it.

But that's ok, if keeping every single broken mon on the tier is the answer to make the playerbase realize this nonsense mechanic then so be it and vote dnb.
Yeah, this is just all cap, I'm sorry to say. Tera is nowhere close to even the brokeness you are implying.
The mons that wouldn't be banworthy without tera are:
Regieleki
Volcarona
Terapagos
Maybe Esparthra and Firepon, but those are big maybes (they would still be broken).
So why should we ban a whole mechanic just to preserve 3-5 mons?
I already admitted that they were more powerful with tera, so idk why are trying to say otherwise. Sure, they might be more dealable, but are we really going to ban a mechanic so we can keep them. Plus, tera helps defensively, which a lot of people forget. Just as gambit can tera fairy/flying/dark, a dondozo can tera fighting, or a corv/skarm can tera fighting. And just as a moon can tera flying, a tusk can tera steel, or a ghold can tera fairy. If you really think these threats would be completely dealable without tera, then you are wrong. Tera hurts and helps them. They love being able to switch types on the fly, but hate potential targets tera'ing out of a weakness and koing them.
Again, this discussion is about whether volc itself is banworthy, sure, context is important, but just because other mons are broken should really not affect the decision that much. I'm not going to respond further on the tera matter, since this is not what this thread is for, but you believe what you believe. I just think you are so unbelievably wrong.
 
lol? like.. lol? There were some REAL discussions on Lando-I being OU so that excuse doesn't even hold anymore.
Real discussions... how long ago??? Like what's happening here, Pais was talking about Solgaleo, which people were only talking about because of Finch's tweet a week ago, no real actual conversations have been had since HOME.

imagine talking so much about so much random things when by banning a single mechanic all this shit wouldn't even exist.
Yes but the thought of the mech being so broken it actually allows TOO MANY people voting and ruining a meta that COULD be fun has got just to me? Idts.

And what does Gambit/Moon still being menacing have to do with banning a broken mech? We should keep tera just because 4/5 mons would be broken? And isn't 4/5 broken mons that could be banned postwise better than 10? Better than coinflip after coinflip every single game in the meta of Sucker/Tclap/Upperhand?

And even if gambit/moon w/e you say would still be broken, don't you think they'd still be A LOT more manageable w/o the tera? Gambit literally dies to a vwave/zama presence, Moon could actually be a prob but many builds w/o tera can face it, and even if it wasn't unfaceable you could suspect him in a more reliable meta.
As for this point, I mean people don't want it banned anymore so now we have to deal with the meta as is, whether you like it or not.
 

RoiDadadou

Banned deucer.
Yes but the thought of the mech being so broken it actually allows TOO MANY people voting and ruining a meta that COULD be fun has got just to me? Idts.

And what does Gambit/Moon still being menacing have to do with banning a broken mech? We should keep tera just because 4/5 mons would be broken? And isn't 4/5 broken mons that could be banned postwise better than 10? Better than coinflip after coinflip every single game in the meta of Sucker/Tclap/Upperhand?

And even if gambit/moon w/e you say would still be broken, don't you think they'd still be A LOT more manageable w/o the tera? Gambit literally dies to a vwave/zama presence, Moon could actually be a prob but many builds w/o tera can face it, and even if it wasn't unfaceable you could suspect him in a more reliable meta.

And I'm not even mentioning the Lando-I thing, it's not even worth talking about it.

But that's ok, if keeping every single broken mon on the tier is the answer to make the playerbase realize this nonsense mechanic then so be it and vote dnb.
Then by all mean, go get requs and vote DnB, no one is against you expressing a valid opinion on whether or not Volcarona is banworthy, which is the point of this thread. Just bantering about Tera because you don't like the mechanic won't magically make anything happen tho.

I do strongly disagree with Madara and you on this matter, already discussed it at length with him and we don't share a vision on that. But that's okay! As long as we just keep it cool.

As for the subject that Pais' post actually discussed, the Lando thing, I'd have to agree that posting on Twitter about Ubers being discussed when more Pokémon should be sent there is not the best move. Happens tho, at the end of the day it's just a game.
 

RoiDadadou

Banned deucer.
I don't have the GXE enough to vote, but isn't a team sheet better for the meta like in VGC where we can see the tera or is it maybe bad since you have not that surprise factor anymore.
It removes a whole lot of the creativity and checking factor of Tera. Sure you are a bit less surprised, but the surprise's anyway not there when you've played the meta a bit, and know the types. What you create is more 50/50, as now, you know the opp has Gambit Fly, but the opp knows you know. It's not a meta checking dynamic anymore, purely a guessing game on timing. +, your Tera will be less effective defensively, as the opp can now see which Tera could stop it in its track or revenge kill it, making the Offensive Tera an 'advantage state only' presence, thus more effective.

Removes the checking phase, worsen the creativity in the builder, and allows for defensive Tera to also be counteracted more easily, so it's usually not seen as a good measure.
 
It removes a whole lot of the creativity and checking factor of Tera. Sure you are a bit less surprised, but the surprise's anyway not there when you've played the meta a bit, and know the types. What you create is more 50/50, as now, you know the opp has Gambit Fly, but the opp knows you know. It's not a meta checking dynamic anymore, purely a guessing game on timing. +, your Tera will be less effective defensively, as the opp can now see which Tera could stop it in its track or revenge kill it, making the Offensive Tera an 'advantage state only' presence, thus more effective.

Removes the checking phase, worsen the creativity in the builder, and allows for defensive Tera to also be counteracted more easily, so it's usually not seen as a good measure.
Yes thought so too, still tera is the most fun gimmick Imo it gives a lot of depth I feel like Volcarona is good, maybe nerf it by banning fiery dance since from what I've read is mostly the RNG part that people hate so nerf it I guess, (dunno since I'm more of a filthy casual player)
 

Dead by Daylight

latin simone
is a Contributor to Smogon
If you don't care that Finch said it's a joke and told us NOT to talk about Ubers being dropped as a reason to save Volc because it won't happen - why even bother posting in the first place bc it seems like you're not willing to talk about the fact that you're voting DNB for something that is literally not happening? Just hold your opinion and vote DNB.
Why even bother posting in the first place because it seems that you’re not willing to talk about any points in Pais’s post other than the fact that Pais reasonably did not know Finch’s tweet wasn’t a joke? Just hold your opinion on the post if you can’t critique its points. jfc
 
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Finchinator

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Two threads derailed over shit I post on my personal Twitter, which has already been thoroughly clarified, is nuts. And no, I have no obligation to be “professional” across my personal platforms. I’ve posted dozens of memes/jokes and don’t exactly intend to stop. I’m a human with actual friends and people I like to engage with on there, not some tiering robot.

Pais is a strong player who is entitled to vote on whatever logic he would like. I’m glad he shared his opinion even if I disagree, but anything pertaining to Solgaleo is a bit silly (and stuff like Landorus-I even moreso). Still happy he’s participating and think we don’t need to be rude in responses. Being honest and reacting in good faith is fine, but some people are going a bit far throughout this thread.
 

Pais

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Two threads derailed over shit I post on my personal Twitter, which has already been thoroughly clarified, is nuts. And no, I have no obligation to be “professional” across my personal platforms. I’ve posted dozens of memes/jokes and don’t exactly intend to stop. I’m a human with actual friends and people I like to engage with on there, not some tiering robot.

Pais is a strong player who is entitled to vote on whatever logic he would like. I’m glad he shared his opinion even if I disagree, but anything pertaining to Solgaleo is a bit silly (and stuff like Landorus-I even moreso). Still happy he’s participating and think we don’t need to be rude in responses. Being honest and reacting in good faith is fine, but some people are going a bit far throughout this thread.
just to clarify, I've not done a personal attack to you, but like since I use Twitter a lot for VGC stuff I've seen that post from you and so I had some doubt.
I think it's cool to see people with different point of views, I just wanted to clarify more my points since there has been some misunderstanding.
 
Why even bother posting in the first place because it seems that you’re not willing to talk about any points in Pais’s post other than the fact that Pais reasonably did not know Finch’s tweet wasn’t a joke? Just hold your opinion on the post if you can’t critique its points. jfc
I literally discussed and critiqued every other other point in his post already with him - you definitely saw the posts because you laugh reacted them lmfao
 

Dead by Daylight

latin simone
is a Contributor to Smogon
I literally discussed and critiqued every other other point in his post already with him - you definitely saw the posts because you laugh reacted them lmfao
just saw your post on Monday, so I’ll say you did respond, but telling someone to basically shut up is…not good. hope you understand.

edit: can we all stop harping on Pais for this and consider his post for its values? can we do better? I hope so.
 
just saw your post on Monday, so I’ll say you did respond, but telling someone to basically shut up is…not good. hope you understand.

edit: can we all stop harping on Pais for this and consider his post for its values? can we do better? I hope so.
That's fair enough - I can admit I got a bit carried away. Apologies to you both Pais.

Yes thought so too, still tera is the most fun gimmick Imo it gives a lot of depth I feel like Volcarona is good, maybe nerf it by banning fiery dance since from what I've read is mostly the RNG part that people hate so nerf it I guess, (dunno since I'm more of a filthy casual player)
This isn't really the core of the issue with Volcarona I think - people don't really complain about the random SpA boost as far as I've ever seen. The main issue is its synergy with Tera and Tera Blast being able to flexibly choose its checks/counters with any of Tera Dragon/Ground/Grass/Water/Fairy. If Tera was restricted then maybe it could stick around, but as it stands I think the combination of Quiver Dance and Tera Blast is incredibly strong with it.
 
Yes thought so too, still tera is the most fun gimmick Imo it gives a lot of depth I feel like Volcarona is good, maybe nerf it by banning fiery dance since from what I've read is mostly the RNG part that people hate so nerf it I guess, (dunno since I'm more of a filthy casual player)
fiery dance isn't the part of volc rng that people hate. it can boost its spa with quiver dance anyway, so fiery dance is kinda just icing on the cake, not that big of a deal. a lot of sets use fire blast or flamethrower anyway. the rng element that people have problems with is flame body, which is so feared by physical attackers that people are literally just not clicking contact moves on volc at all even when it'd be objectively advantageous to do so. now, my personal opinion is that people are overreacting to flame body (and static) because you can pretty easily play around them by, y'know, using non-contact moves (or just clicking your contact move instead of hesitating—fortune favors the bold), but for volc in particular that's usually not the case because the vast majority of non-contact moves are special and volc can easily boost its spdef beyond the point of dealwithableness. other issues with volc are also present, mainly its unpredictability and matchup-flipping potential with tera blast, which are much larger than any rng elements in volc's kit

also, banning fiery dance would cause serious collateral damage, since another mon with significant usage in ou (iron moth) frequently runs the move
 
the rng element that people have problems with is flame body, which is so feared by physical attackers that people are literally just not clicking contact moves on volc at all even when it'd be objectively advantageous to do so. now, my personal opinion is that people are overreacting to flame body (and static) because you can pretty easily play around them by, y'know, using non-contact moves (or just clicking your contact move instead of hesitating—fortune favors the bold), but for volc in particular that's usually not the case because the vast majority of non-contact moves are special and volc can easily boost its spdef beyond the point of dealwithableness.
I do think Protective Pads are a bit of an underrated option given how common Volcarona (and sort of Zapdos) are, but I suppose the opportunity cost is far too high
 
I wanted to write a post actually discussing anti-ban arguments that have repeatedly come up in this thread. I obviously don't agree with them, and I want to explain why I think these arguments are flawed by actually engaging with them. By and large, the main anti-ban arguments have been: 1) focusing on volc's benefits for the meta and theorymonning problems without it, 2) arguing that every mon can use tera like volc can, 3) contesting lack of counterplay. I'll be citing some posts here that reference these arguments.

1) Volc's benefits to the meta: Has come up repeatedly.

-Volcarona has a good match-up into most of the problematic/controversial Pokemon in the metagame:

With the exception of Ogerpon-Wellspring, Volcarona´s match-ups and capacity to limit Kingambit, Kyurem, Gholdengo, Iron Valiant, and even Dragapult to some extent is a valuable contribution towards a balanced state of the metagame. While it could be argued that Iron Valiant is no longer a problematic presence in the metagame, the same could be argued prior to Volcarona´s quickban earlier in the generation. What we saw after that was a dramatic increase in Iron Valiant usage and complaints about how uncompetitive it was. Regarding Dragapult, Volcarona only has a good capacity to limit the Wisp + U-turn set, getting obliterated by CB and not being a big enjoyer of Specs Shadow Ball either, but at least, it can punish U-turns from the Pivot Set withouth much risk.
It’s barely centralising when you compare Volcarona to the real brokens.

people are arguing that Volcarona has too many sets and they don’t want to use a 2-check or more combo to bypass its bypass.

Meanwhile, no questions asked, the meta is centralising on things like rocky helmet landorus + momentum partners as one of the few consistent ways to check the dearth of physical threats that are actually impacting the meta in an over centralising way.

If Volcarona was over centralising we would see significantly higher usage of checks like clodsire, heatran and skeledirge. The reality is crickets..
it’s very obvious just how volatile and mediocre Volcarona actually is, when it’s reality is compared to the perception its performance and popularity. Similar to what we saw with zamazenta during its suspect, the usage isn’t supporting the perceived OPness. People are using it for its defensive profile, with offensive upside when it’s MU is good.
Removing Volcarona would also remove a check for Zamazenta, Kingambit, Gholdengo, and I don't think the council will ever take action on these Pokémon, so I prefer to avoid the risk and leave everything as it is. However, I can see the common denominator among all recent suspects: all these Pokémon are great Tera abusers, and that shouldn't be something new.
Volcarona isn't the only problematic Tera Blast abuser rn imo, I would argue CB Pult runs away with a ton of games due to surprise factor as well. Also, even if we take banning tera blast out of the list of options, I don't think we will arrive at a more balanced metagame for banning volc. Like I said earlier, the problem isnt just jf Tera Blast is what makes Volc broken or not, it's that if we simply ban Volc it gets replaced with Iron Moth or something of similar nature.

Also, your Iron Valiant argument doesnt make sense. Problematic is not the same as broken.
There are a few issues with these arguments. First is Finch's repeated assertion that tiering isn't pros and cons: A mon can have benefits for the tier and be broken, these two things are not contradictory at all. Archaludon was a bulky steel in a tier without a ton of good ones, Gliscor in dlc1 provided a ton of defensive utility. These positives fundamentally don't matter because we should be judging a mon as broken based on its negatives for the tier; is it overcentralizing, uncompetitive, unhealthy, etc.? The positives fundamentally don't matter. HOWEVER, I do feel as if just saying this may risk not engaging with legitimate arguments for why people will vote DNB, so I want to engage these points directly, on their own merits, even if I think that this isn't how tiering should be done.
To get it out of the way, Volc does provide the tier with defensive utility. It resists ice, fairy and steel, so great. However, I will be questioning this argument on the implicit assumption that volc is as sturdy a check to these mons as people claim, and that it leaving will make these mons get out of hand. Volc is repeatedly mentioned to check mainly Val/Enam, Kyurem, and then ghold, kg and zam by some. Fine. The issue is that it's ability to check some of these mons is circumspect. Val beats it with its best set, SD, so I don't think its as good of a check or dissuasion as people claim to Val. It actually loses to a lot of kyurem sets; specs kyurem with draco almost one shots even bulkier volcs, and boots sets can easily slide on rock slide over draco if volcarona is a problem. It's mu into KG is shaky because of how hard KG hits on the physical side, but it can threaten burn procs, and it does beat ghold and zam without tera, sure. But this fundamentally doesnt matter unless these mons are actively problematic or broken. I view KG and Ghold as potentially problematic in the future, but not right now. I think Kyurem is ACTIVELY problematic, but volc is kind of a fake check to it anyways. Valiant, enamorus and Zamazenta i'm not concerned about at all.
This argument, however, essentially hinges on Volc being what keeps these mons from being problematic, and that once it's gone, these mons will become a problem. The issue is that it's theorymonning. All of these mons have checks other then Volc, even the one I think is actively broken. Furthermore, it assumes that the tier will guaranteed go into chaos or whatever if Volc leaves, which is frankly unlikely, and even MORESO, it assumes that if it does, that action will not be taken, when even action against mons like Gouging Fire, which isn't broken, WAS taken. These are a LOT of really groundless assumptions more based on people pretending to see the future then actual reasons related to Volc's brokenness; we DON'T KNOW if the tier will descend into chaos if Volc leaves, and LIKELY, it won't. Compare this to the present and what we know about Volc: We KNOW Volc is a great abuser of Tera, WE KNOW Volc has been extremely dominant as a wincon whenever its been legal this gen, AND WE KNOW Volc can snowball much easier then other mons. Volc being broken or problematic is ACTUALLY known, unlike theorymonning of whether certain mons will be broken if Volc leaves.

2) Every mon uses Tera like Volc can
The main flaw I see with this argument, is that it is not an argument against Volcarona, but one against Tera Blast. Withouth Tera Blast, Volcarona can not beat Heatran, Clodsire, Skeledirge, Gouging Fire etc. Banning Tera Blast is preferable to banning Volcarona, not only because there are multiple other Pokemon that are only deemed broken because of Tera Blast, like Regieleki but also because something will take Volcarona´s role after it gets banned, Tera Blast Ground Iron Moth seems like a plausible candidate. This argument is also flawed from the perspective that even with Tera Blast being allowed, some counters still exist, like Cm Blissey or defensive Teras on Unaware Pokemon to beat Tera Ground.
This is a new paradigm Tera meta.
This isn't true for a few reasons. I go through most of the reasons in my earlier post, but Volc can DEFINITELY use tera much better then other mons, because its a much easier snowballer. It gets access to the best setup move in the game, flame body and fiery dance, and all three of these tools allow it to snowball easily. QD boosts defenses, offenses and speed all in one, making it harder to both revenge kill, but also making it more powerful. Flame body makes it harder to revenge kill by burning the opponent, essentially multiplying its physical bulk, especially if its procced it on a physical threat earlier on in the game, while simultaneously dissuading physical threats from hitting it if they're needed later on. Fiery dance is a free click and can both hit hard and boost its offenses even more (50%!!!). I've mentioned before, but by turn 2 of volc being out, it could have burned a mon that may have been needed to revenge kill it (like Pult), gotten a quiver dance AND a fiery dance boost, meaning its that much closer to blowing a hole through the enemy team. These are tools that are UNIQUE to Volcarona; no other mon or setup sweeper can abuse snowball like it, so no other mon abuses tera like it. It runs QD virtually always, it runs tera blast way more often then not, and often forgoes flamethrower for fiery dance, despite the power drop (note that on very high ladder, flamethrower is run more, however fiery dance is still run a significant portion of the time). It also obviously mostly runs flame body. It also runs tera blast over half the time AT LEAST, which is concerning because, as many people have pointed out, Tera Blast is often a dead moveslot if you do not tera. Most mons actually don't run it unless there is a significant chance they end up teraing over the course of the match; Volc running a dead moveslot more then half the time means, by definition that it is a much better tera abuser then other mons, so it is unique. HighVoltage brings up Tera blast being the issue, and I don't agree, because virtually every OU viable mon barely uses it. Yes, other mons have been banned for it, like Espathra, but this is actually harming his argument; Espathra was also another mon NOTORIOUS for being able to snowball thanks to speedboost with CM and stored power! Tera blast is in fact barely used on mons that are not able to snowball like this (serp is fake), and the fact that Volc uses it this much and is as good with this dead moveslot as it is should be proof of this. Ctann claimed that Volc is mostly used for its defensive utility over offensive utility, but why would a defensive mon never drop QD and almost always run tera blast if it mostly planned on being used for its defensive capabilities? These are snowball tools! HighVoltage's only other example of tera blast being problematic is CB Pult, which is a good set, but nowhere near its most common. It's clear Volc is able to use this tool much better then virtually any other mon, and you would not be putting tera blast this frequently on a mon if you didn't think you'd be tera-ing it for a sweep or to win the game, given that the move is functionally worthless if you DON'T tera. So, what we know is that Volc has more snowballing tools then other mons, no matter its defensive capabilities, and its movesets reflect this by the use of an extremely high-commitment option in its moveslot that it wouldn't use if it wasn't going to blow a hole open in the enemy team.

3) Contesting lack of counterplay: there's been a lot of thought here that Volc does in fact have counterplay, and to the insistence that it's not that much, some posters have just suggested stacking multiple forms of volc counterplay onto a team. I've gone into Volc's counterplay and the vast majorities issues with one of its sets, so I'm not going to beat that dead horse, but I want to point out that "just stack counterplay" is a bad argument because there are a TON of threats in the builder I already need to account for. YES, me and any good player will do their best to not lose to Volc, but given the threat saturation right now, saying that you just need to stack your counterplay fails to take into account that I'm not just building a team to beat Volc, I'm building a team to beat the entire metagame, and that being forced to stack counterplay against Volc can mean I'm weaker into some of the many other threats right now. Furthermore, because of its unpredictability, I can end up sending in the WRONG form of counterplay into Volcarona at first, meaning that the other defensive counterplay (because Volc is hard to revenge kill) is now much more susceptible to getting overwhelmed. If I have Skeledirge and Gking on my team for Volc, I might send in Dirge at first, but if it's tera ground, my Dirge can get 2shot, and now my Dirge is gone and my team is much weaker. Or, if I send in my GKing at first and it turns out to be sub/tera ground or something, I give it even more opportunities to boost on my Gking as it attempts to break sub. Similarly with other forms of counterplay like Garganacl; I can have multiple forms of counterplay, but if the Volcarona beats what I send in first and sets up on it, my other counterplay might be screwed. Similarly, not all counterplay can fit on all teams; Blissey and Clod are obvious examples, but Dirge is often not splashable at all. GKing is, but it needs to devote psyshock and toxic to reliably stop it, when it's already torn for moveslots and is checking half the metagame for your team anyways. Rilla and Weavile can smack tera ground variants with priority, but they might not fit on that team, for example. Saying "just stack threats" is close to admitting the huge pressure Volc puts on the builder. And furthermore, you can do this and just lose. Look at FayaWizard's replay:
Mimikyu Stardust vs Beraldinhoo
Berald brings Dragapult, Ting Lu, and Heatran, but Mimikyu manages to pick off the former two throughout the course of the game, and brings in Volcarona as their last mon in the lategame, surviving a Headlong Rush from Great Tusk to pick up a Quiver Dance, before killing Tusk with Giga Drain, then revealing Tera Ground Tera Blast and smashing Heatran to clutch the game.
This team has a lot of Volc counterplay in theory, but in practice Volc has other teammates, and once those get worn down, Volc can go for the kill. Importantly, you probably don't know Volc's tera type or set until its boosted on you and is in position. Is this a good matchup for Volc? Yes, and it could've been worse, but you often don't know what tera or set it rocks until its in position to snowball; there's a shitty guessing game here, where if you play wrong or get the set wrong, you lose because it can snowball.

TLDR Overall, i think a lot of these arguments forget that there's evidence that Volc is a great snowballer and tera abuser, which we know, and often use arguments based on uncertainties, or claiming that because the meta might be worse after Volc gos, it should stay, without actually knowing and ignoring the issues that Volc clearly presents in the builder right now.
 
Just got reqs, and even though I'm usually strongly on the ban train, I think I'm DNB on this one. Volcarona is certainly somewhat unhealthy for the OU tier, definitely straining the teambuilder to handle its various sets and especially the plethora of excellent tera types it has. You know it's probably running Quiver Dance and a fire attack, but that's about it, and even those aren't 100% guarantees. It flexes substitute or morning sun really well to beat bulky opponents, can attack with tera blast (I think ground type is Volc's best, but certainly not its only), bug buzz, giga drain, or even psychic. It's not even impossible for it to run Will-o-Wisp to beat switchins like Dragonite, although that one has definitely fallen a bit more by the wayside. Even its EVs are totally up to the Volc player, making it difficult to account for whether it'll hit fast and hard or be surprisingly bulky. Almost any one counter to it in the teambuilder will probably still lose to a particular Volc set, the best you can hope for is that the rest of your team can cover that weakness.

Well, that sounds sort like an unhealthy pokemon, right? My short answer is yes - Volcarona is unhealthy and is an unmistakable contributor to the pressures on the teambuilder that have plagued SV OU from the start. But in the context of this generation at large, I really don't think Volcarona is broken. With tera existing as a mechanic, the inherent rock-paper-scissors of Bootspam > Hazards > Offence > Bootspam, and just the generally crazy high power level of the generation, the 'default level' of matchup fishy, unhealthy pokemon you have to counterplay in a more contextual, dynamic way rather than a more textbook, on-paper way is sky-high. We're evaluating Volcarona and not other mons right now, but I suspect that most people in this thread could easily name at least 3 and as many as 10 mons in the tier that are 'unhealthy on the teambuilder'. That's just kind of the way this generation is, and with the history of how votes have gone, it sort of just feels like the bed we've made and should lie in. Offensive teams have contextual answers with things like Dragonite, Primarina, and Roaring Moon, while defensive teams have Toxapex, Garganacl, Blissey, and Clodsire. Volcarona can beat most of these if it is running the right set, but it probably isn't, and you have to sort of read your opponent and gameplan around what set it probably is. It's very fuzzy and not a particularly solid argument, but it's the one on which this entire generation is built. So, I'm not going to hate the player, and vote DNB on Volc.
 

Drifting

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Just got reqs, and even though I'm usually strongly on the ban train, I think I'm DNB on this one. Volcarona is certainly somewhat unhealthy for the OU tier, definitely straining the teambuilder to handle its various sets and especially the plethora of excellent tera types it has. You know it's probably running Quiver Dance and a fire attack, but that's about it, and even those aren't 100% guarantees. It flexes substitute or morning sun really well to beat bulky opponents, can attack with tera blast (I think ground type is Volc's best, but certainly not its only), bug buzz, giga drain, or even psychic. It's not even impossible for it to run Will-o-Wisp to beat switchins like Dragonite, although that one has definitely fallen a bit more by the wayside. Even its EVs are totally up to the Volc player, making it difficult to account for whether it'll hit fast and hard or be surprisingly bulky. Almost any one counter to it in the teambuilder will probably still lose to a particular Volc set, the best you can hope for is that the rest of your team can cover that weakness.

Well, that sounds sort like an unhealthy pokemon, right? My short answer is yes - Volcarona is unhealthy and is an unmistakable contributor to the pressures on the teambuilder that have plagued SV OU from the start. But in the context of this generation at large, I really don't think Volcarona is broken. With tera existing as a mechanic, the inherent rock-paper-scissors of Bootspam > Hazards > Offence > Bootspam, and just the generally crazy high power level of the generation, the 'default level' of matchup fishy, unhealthy pokemon you have to counterplay in a more contextual, dynamic way rather than a more textbook, on-paper way is sky-high. We're evaluating Volcarona and not other mons right now, but I suspect that most people in this thread could easily name at least 3 and as many as 10 mons in the tier that are 'unhealthy on the teambuilder'. That's just kind of the way this generation is, and with the history of how votes have gone, it sort of just feels like the bed we've made and should lie in. Offensive teams have contextual answers with things like Dragonite, Primarina, and Roaring Moon, while defensive teams have Toxapex, Garganacl, Blissey, and Clodsire. Volcarona can beat most of these if it is running the right set, but it probably isn't, and you have to sort of read your opponent and gameplan around what set it probably is. It's very fuzzy and not a particularly solid argument, but it's the one on which this entire generation is built. So, I'm not going to hate the player, and vote DNB on Volc.
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Just so this isn't a one liner I wanted to remind everyone else that just because you're upset about Tera or Kingambit or whatever not getting banned, that isn't a good reason to vote DNB on something else that would pretty much unambiguously make the tier better. We're at the point where offense teams are using Mirror Herb Gholdengo to Nasty Plot as Volc QD's and reverse 6-0. I'm not joking, that is a real Vert set. The sheer volatility Volcarona brings to the tier by existing is unbelievable. Surely we can come together to end this matchup fishing, Fiery Dancing, Flame Body proccing casino farce of a Pokemon
 
We're at the point where offense teams are using Mirror Herb Gholdengo to Nasty Plot as Volc QD's and reverse 6-0. I'm not joking, that is a real Vert set.
…hang on, how exactly does that work? even after all those boosts are up, both offensive and bulky volc outspeed, 2hko, and live a hit from any variation of ghold; the only way for ghold to win the interaction is if it teras, and even then i think a well-played volc can win with quivers and morning suns in the right places. i suppose ghold can win if volc is chipped, but i'm not entirely certain. also, i personally wouldn't be clicking qd or even leaving an unboosted volc in on a ghold that i can't guarantee isn't choice trick. i don't doubt you or vert, i'm just curious how often this interaction occurs and works out favorably for the ghold. are there any replays of it?
 

Drifting

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…hang on, how exactly does that work? even after all those boosts are up, both offensive and bulky volc outspeed, 2hko, and live a hit from any variation of ghold; the only way for ghold to win the interaction is if it teras, and even then i think a well-played volc can win with quivers and morning suns in the right places. i suppose ghold can win if volc is chipped, but i'm not entirely certain. also, i personally wouldn't be clicking qd or even leaving an unboosted volc in on a ghold that i can't guarantee isn't choice trick. i don't doubt you or vert, i'm just curious how often this interaction occurs and works out favorably for the ghold. are there any replays of it?
You nasty plot as the Volc comes in and then tera and shadow ball it as it qd’s, I should have been more clear. It’s also used for beating ID Zama more consistently so it’s not that much of a fish.
 
You nasty plot as the Volc comes in and then tera and shadow ball it as it qd’s, I should have been more clear. It’s also used for beating ID Zama more consistently so it’s not that much of a fish.
that makes a lot more sense. you really had me wondering how many people were just straight-up clicking qd on unscouted gholds lmao

of course, now that we've discussed it in a public thread, i give it maybe three days until it stops working as a lure outside of low ladder even on low ladder because that's where all the suspect test alts are
 
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Just so this isn't a one liner I wanted to remind everyone else that just because you're upset about Tera or Kingambit or whatever not getting banned, that isn't a good reason to vote DNB on something else that would pretty much unambiguously make the tier better. We're at the point where offense teams are using Mirror Herb Gholdengo to Nasty Plot as Volc QD's and reverse 6-0. I'm not joking, that is a real Vert set. The sheer volatility Volcarona brings to the tier by existing is unbelievable. Surely we can come together to end this matchup fishing, Fiery Dancing, Flame Body proccing casino farce of a Pokemon
Haha, I don't think you're wrong, and this is where all the troubles of tiering this madhouse come in. I'm 100% on board with you that Volc is broken on paper, but with tera making the whole system of threats and checks/counters all fuzzy and annoyingly contextual, it's hard to say that Volc doesn't really belong in the tier with all the other monsters we have. There's the very valid argument that "Well, maybe we should just remove all the monsters then", but it's hard for me personally to get on board with that kind of idealism when the tiering results and discussions haven't really aligned with that philosophy so far.
 
Just so this isn't a one liner I wanted to remind everyone else that just because you're upset about Tera or Kingambit or whatever not getting banned, that isn't a good reason to vote DNB on something else that would pretty much unambiguously make the tier better.
Devil's advocate; then couldn't one also say volcarona is fine if you banned kingambit/moon/val first because that removes team builder restriction from having to deal with them to actually deal with volc properly instead? Or are we going to rotate 'ban of the month' because X mon is actually perfectly fine when you don't have to prefer for other shit ontop of it?

You could argue that targetting volc isn't 'fixing' the tier and thus there's no point, but removing one of the other 'problems' does/fixes the tier and/or volc, with the fairest and least approachable solution being ejecting them all at once and drip feeding down. Part of volc's problem is unpredictability due to tera but you could also lets say, remove moon and suddenly one or two tera types volc runs becomes less viable, and thus narrow its options to a more manageable state. How can you recreate the "fairy tera volc just cheesed me abusing moon" scenario if there is no moon? You have to analyze everything in the tier and RN volc's unpredictability feels like a by-product of that and not the worst of it, its no more/less bannable than other threats but if you cherry picked any one of them the others surely get more managable by that decision... except in this case, removing volc just empowers the rest so even if you relieve team builder to deal with them, you relieve them of volc where as if you removed moon you relieve teambuilder of moon, but volc loses a viable set and niche in checking moon which is two achievements in 1.

The way I feel about volc rn is yes, it does have a lot of options, but those options are specifically to beat a specific answer to volc while losing to everything else, the only way its predictable is if there's a perfect every-game volc set where you can make a team and run other mons around it but that's just not what's happening, there's too much in the tier to deal with even as volc, and as a by product that causes it to russian roulette its tera typing in teambuilder and for opponents they'll remember the 1 in 6 volcs that actually had the bullet and call BS but not the other 5 that were useless.

"MU" moth implies it has bad matchups, so far I've only seen post pretending volc has 18 types, you either get a free win vs. it or you don't, but how consistent is it at free winning for its own team and the major element of that? Is there really nothing else you could plug into volc's team slot and tera sweep? It feels like anything does it volc just has to adapt even more.

I'm not participating in reqs (I genuinely just don't care at this point), or even saying a stance cause volc can be bullshit, but everytime I read "don't vote DNB because of X" my instant thought is "why aren't we suspecting X then? if volc is more viable by their presence as a blanket check wouldn't banning another universally agreed broken mon be a good tier shift not just for nerfing volc but as a whole? Is our only reason cheese moth is higher on the priority is because it can occasionally cheese one of the other broken mons? What happens without them does volc just not exist or be forced to exclusively run tera ground for heatran every game?"
 
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Devil's advocate; then couldn't one also say volcarona is fine if you banned kingambit/moon/val first because that removes team builder restriction from having to deal with them to actually deal with volc properly instead? Or are we going to rotate 'ban of the month' because X mon is actually perfectly fine when you don't have to prefer for other shit ontop of it?

You could argue that targetting volc isn't 'fixing' the tier, but removing one of the other 'problems' does/fixes the tier and/or volc, with the fairest and least approachable solution being ejecting them all at once and drip feeding down. Part of volc's problem is unpredictability due to tera but you could also lets say, remove moon and suddenly one or two tera types volc runs becomes less viable, and thus narrow its options to a more manageable state. How can you recreate the "fairy tera volc just cheesed me abusing moon" scenario if there is no moon? You have to analyze everything in the tier and RN volc's unpredictability feels like a by-product of that.

The way I feel about volc rn is yes, it does have a lot of options, but those options are specifically to beat a specific answer to volc while losing to everything else, the only way its predictable is if there's a perfect every-game volc set where you can make a team and run other mons around it but that's just not what's happening, there's too much in the tier to deal with even as volc, and as a by product that causes it to russian roulette its tera typing in teambuilder and for opponents they'll remember the 1 in 6 volcs that actually had the bullet and call BS but not the other 5 that were useless.

"MU" moth implies it has bad matchups, so far I've only seen post pretending volc has 18 types, you either get a free win vs. it or you don't, but how consistent is it at free winning for its own team?

I'm not participating in reqs, or even saying a stance cause volc can be bullshit, but everytime I read "don't vote DNB because of X" my instant thought is "why aren't we suspecting X then? if volc is more viable by their presence as a blanket check wouldn't banning another universally agreed broken mon be a good tier shift not just for nerfing volc but as a whole?"
Based on what you're supposed to assume based off of suspect tests, you're supposed to ban based off whether or not in the current metagame it's broken or not, regardless of "what if you ban these mons then it's fine." There's no devil's advocate in this way (but few actually follow this principle lmao).

I also fail to see how banning Volcarona makes Iron Valiant broken when it literally only hit the radar beginning of SV OU and then dropped down from there, and I don't see how it would make Enamorus more broken when it was struggling in DLC1, and I don't see how banning Volcarona makes Kingambit more broken when most people don't even bother to run a set that checks it.

Banning mons that "force" Volcarona to tera to get past something such as tera blast fairy to make Volcarona more predictable also doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because although you cut down on less variety, Volcarona gets more flexibility in bypassing the other mainstay checks like Ting-Lu and Gking (such as substitute in the case of Gking) instead of having to opt to run a tera blast against some check.
 

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We had two metagames without Volc and Enam/Valiant were broken in none of them. We already know what they were like. Why would it be different now?

Even Volc’s ability to check Val is questionable since +2 Knock 2HKOs it while Volc itself doesn’t OHKO.

+2 252 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Volcarona: 260-306 (69.5 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 300-354 (96.4 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 168-198 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 228-268 (78.8 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Kyurem blows this shit up with Scale Shot or Rock Slide. So no, Volc isn’t a great Kyu check. Rilla carries Knock Off. Gambit bypasses you with Lum or Tera Fire. Zama can sometimes carry Stone Edge, or run Tera Fire. So realistically the only things Volc is actually checking consistently are Enamorus and Gholdengo.

The whole “Volcarona provides defensive value” argument doesn’t hold as much weight as you think.
 
In general, I don't understand most of the Volc's defensive utility is somehow saving us from X arguments. To be blunt, it's one of the most overblown points I have seen on here. We have 5 other Fire types in OU, who aside from Gouging Fire, will resist Ice and Fairy moves. There are more Fire types that are viable to run from lower tiers like Moltres or Skelidirge. We have some Steel types with Fairy and Ice resists as well like Ghold and Gambit. And again, some lower tier options can be viably run in OU.

If people want to check Kyurem or Fairy types with a more offensive option for offensive teams, they could run Scizor. You get the Ice and Fairy resists without a ground weakness. You threaten them out with Bullet Punch. You fit a strong priority on your team. They could run Iron Moth, who has an Ice Resist and a double resistance to Fairy. It's also a grounded poison for T-spikes. They could maybe even run H Arcanine, who has a lot of options for various niches like Intimidate, Extreme Speed, and Head Smash. It isn't as good as D-nite, but D-nite shouldn't be coming in on predicted Ice and Fairy moves.

I also don't understand why folks who just want us to let the meta play out instead of banning Volc can't envision the meta playing out fine without Volc. It's always the worst case scenario with these Volc checks X arguments. How about looking at potential options to fill this assumed defensive utility void? It's been called theorymon, but it's really more fearmongering. There is no objective analyses. Just a false assumption that A. Volc's defensive utility meets the hype and B. there is nothing else to fill that particular purpose if it gets banned. Both assumptions are dead wrong.

How can you recreate the "fairy tera volc just cheesed me abusing moon" scenario if there is no moon?
Hold the phone. Isn't the bigger reason to run Tera Fairy for Sucker Punch? And wouldn't Roaring Moon just destroy Tera Fairy Volc with Tera Flying Acrobatics? I'm full on the Roaring Moon is broken bandwagon, but I don't understand how you think Volc is consistently stopping that aside from getting a burn. Flame Body is cheese, but it's inconsistent cheese. And you certainly aren't consistently outrunning it to Bug Buzz (and hope it doesn't Tera) or the less common Will-O-Wisp when BE speed is very common.
 
fiery dance isn't the part of volc rng that people hate. it can boost its spa with quiver dance anyway, so fiery dance is kinda just icing on the cake, not that big of a deal. a lot of sets use fire blast or flamethrower anyway. the rng element that people have problems with is flame body, which is so feared by physical attackers that people are literally just not clicking contact moves on volc at all even when it'd be objectively advantageous to do so. now, my personal opinion is that people are overreacting to flame body (and static) because you can pretty easily play around them by, y'know, using non-contact moves (or just clicking your contact move instead of hesitating—fortune favors the bold), but for volc in particular that's usually not the case because the vast majority of non-contact moves are special and volc can easily boost its spdef beyond the point of dealwithableness. other issues with volc are also present, mainly its unpredictability and matchup-flipping potential with tera blast, which are much larger than any rng elements in volc's kit

also, banning fiery dance would cause serious collateral damage, since another mon with significant usage in ou (iron moth) frequently runs the move
There items that counter it right, protective pads, ability shield and punching glove maybe people can use it
 
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