Metagame np: USM PU Stage 3.5: Recovery [Magmortar and Archeops Banned]

Status
Not open for further replies.


Archeops is a very potent threat at the moment in the pu metagame and the main reason for this is that it limits teambuilding so much for both offensive oriented teams and stall archetypes too. Archeops' lack of good switchins means that it often gets a kill every time it comes in on a favourable matchup due to the lack of good switchins we have to counter it. This threat is also amplified when the Archeops user can successfully keep stealth rock off the field as then Archeops becomes much harder to check because of it's great speed tier meaning it can outrun most of the metagame bar scarfers and a few others like Lycanroc and Floatzel. This is the main reason it cripples offensive team so hard but it can also pressure stall builds well too as they often dont have room to fit a Regirock or niche stuff like Avalugg. Access to Taunt and Roost keeps Archeops healthy and prevents stall's passive pokemon from healing or crippling Archeops which allows for Archeops to dismantle these type of teams too.
What I think puts a lot of people on the fence about archeops is when playing on the ladder where people often allow their Archeops to be pressured by rocks and priority and knocked into defeatist but when used in the right way Archeops is a dominating force in the meta and can be super hard to stop it getting a kill every time it comes in and this is the reason i'm leaning towards Ban.
 
I agree with this. While I don't like facing archeops, I am definitely not sure that it deserves a ban quite yet with rocks crippling its utility and definite counters in the tier. For example, gastrodon can tank acrobatics very well and fire off a 2hko scald in return:

252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 174-205 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Gastrodon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archeops: 230-272 (79 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, idk why my earlier post about magmortar was deleted. Is there a rule about who can talk here?
You see, my big issue here is that a lot of Archeops' "answers" aren't just 'drag and drop' for every team. Pulling a calc out of the void is cute and all, but things don't work in a vacuum. Your sample mon, for example, does not fit on many teams or archetypes in general. I mean obviously they can be ran for it, but that creates unhealthy centralization and we should be working towards removing that. I'll agree it's not as blatantly obvious as Magmortar was, but uh, it's pretty damn close.

At least from my perspective.
 

Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
So I've decided to make a real arch team and see what happens from there. Ofc ladder isn't meta-representative but I've faced a bunch of decent/good players and Im starting to know what will my vote be.
My opinion about arch might be biased or I lacking experience to be right but this is a democracy and you might be the mistaken one after all, so I would like to share an Anti-ban view. I can hardly find a reason obvious enough to claim ban so I will be honest and share my thoughts and feeling in an attempt to bring different arguments and shed some light on a very controversial suspect. Let's discuss the main proban arguments:

1) Archeops is said to be too much for stall and offense.
The stall argument is invalid to me because stall is meant to counter as much threats as possible in a purely defensive way, and this is the builder's choice to use stall at his own risks : ursaring/sawsbuck/aurorus/crabo can do the same. Eventhough offense can't reliably switch into, arch can't switchin either due to rocks being removable at best twice per game if ur lucky due to offense's nature. Also u just need to pivot with eel /mesprit to force it out and keep it away for many more turns. Togedemaru floatzel carracosta pressure it a lot, and arch can't 1v1 gurdurr or kingler. Priority bulky mons like spiritomb also won't faint without putting arch below 50%.
I can't stress enough the greatness of rockyhelmet mesprit/spiritomb and ironbarbs scarf toge which are almost 0 opportunity cost and are awesome Vs arch .

2) It is too fast and too strong
ok for the fast part but do u actually think it uses it so well? Its poor bulk and among-the-worst-ever ability are huge hindrances. It is forced out by every scarfer and priority user in the tier and often struggles to come in more than a couple of times. Add its lack of power due to no held item like lifeorb and u got a glasscannon unable to fulfill the cannon part and needing chip damage on everything to get kos. Acrobatics does lack some power to be really spammable and good at Revenge killing .

3) It has no reliable counterplay
Thats definitely the wrongest statement about arch. Regirock, gastrodon, ferroseed, mudsdale, eelktross, counter it without trouble and are easily usable in any team. Rocky helm mesprit is pretty good and beats it too +antileads. Building with arch in mind isn't a big deal for balance and stall , while offense will lack switchins but won't struggle more than Vs ludicolo or stoutland for instance .

All in all I believe archeops doesn't fit the banworthy criterias due to some lack of power, versatility (well being versatile is a ban argument while being not isn't an antiban argument ... U still here?) and inability to switch often in and pose an unhealthy pressure to decently prepared teams. I believe its ability to give some speed control to teams (mainly balance ) is a positive thing + being a reliable check to monsters like pyroar bellossom and zangoose is nice. I see it more as a very good support for many teams despite being underused, and wish it was used a lot more because banning a Pokémon which is said to be op when nobody really uses it a lot and is unreliable mainly due to a trash ability might be a mistake .

I will add my team I used for reqs and which is the kind of team that could fear archie (featuring arch itself) so as to push the thinking further and maybe allow you to use it so as to decide if u aren't sure: but arch is far from being the threat I expected it to be, and ignoring his drawbacks on the battlefield isn't possible anymore .
I'm voting no ban. And sorry, I feared nobody would post pro-arch so wrote a lot, take ur time! I'm open for any suggestions or criticism !

Rockyhelmet mesprit
Shucaberry Lanturn
Thunder bolt weezing
Floatzel
Raichu
Carracosta
Togedemaru Iron barbs even better
Priority
Pu offense is about who hits harder first so Kingler specs pyroar aurorus are at least as dangerous and not easier to RK.
 
Last edited:
So I've decided to make a real arch team and see what happens from there. Ofc ladder isn't meta-representative but I've faced a bunch of decent/good players and Im starting to know what will my vote be.
My opinion about arch might be biased or I lacking experience to be right but this is a democracy and you might be the mistaken one after all, so I would like to share an Anti-ban view. I can hardly find a reason obvious enough to claim ban so I will be honest and share my thoughts and feeling in an attempt to bring different arguments and shed some light on a very controversial suspect. Let's discuss the main proban arguments:

1) Archeops is said to be too much for stall and offense.
The stall argument is invalid to me because stall is meant to counter as much threats as possible in a purely defensive way, and this is the builder's choice to use stall at his own risks : ursaring/sawsbuck/aurorus/crabo can do the same. Eventhough offense can't reliably switch into, arch can't switchin either due to rocks being removable at best twice per game if ur lucky due to offense's nature. Also u just need to pivot with eel /mesprit to force it out and keep it away for many more turns. Togedemaru floatzel carracosta pressure it a lot, and arch can't 1v1 gurdurr or kingler. Priority bulky mons like spiritomb also won't faint without putting arch below 50%.
I can't stress enough the greatness of rockyhelmet mesprit/spiritomb and ironbarbs scarf toge which are almost 0 opportunity cost and are awesome Vs arch .

2) It is too fast and too strong
ok for the fast part but do u actually think it uses it so well? Its poor bulk and among-the-worst-ever ability are huge hindrances. It is forced out by every scarfer and priority user in the tier and often struggles to come in more than a couple of times. Add its lack of power due to no held item like lifeorb and u got a glasscannon unable to fulfill the cannon part and needing chip damage on everything to get kos. Acrobatics does lack some power to be really spammable and good at Revenge killing .

3) It has no reliable counterplay
Thats definitely the wrongest statement about arch. Regirock, gastrodon, ferroseed, mudsdale, eelktross, counter it without trouble and are easily usable in any team. Rocky helm mesprit is pretty good and beats it too +antileads. Building with arch in mind isn't a big deal for balance and stall , while offense will lack switchins but won't struggle more than Vs ludicolo or stoutland for instance .

All in all I believe archeops doesn't fit the banworthy criterias due to some lack of power, versatility (well being versatile is a ban argument while being not isn't an antiban argument ... U still here?) and inability to switch often in and pose an unhealthy pressure to decently prepared teams. I believe its ability to give some speed control to teams (mainly balance ) is a positive thing + being a reliable check to monsters like pyroar bellossom and zangoose is nice. I see it more as a very good support for many teams despite being underused, and wish it was used a lot more because banning a Pokémon which is said to be op when nobody really uses it a lot and is unreliable mainly due to a trash ability might be a mistake .

I will add my team I used for reqs and which is the kind of team that could fear archie (featuring arch itself) so as to push the thinking further and maybe allow you to use it so as to decide if u aren't sure: but arch is far from being the threat I expected it to be, and ignoring his drawbacks on the battlefield isn't possible anymore .
I'm voting no ban. And sorry, I feared nobody would post pro-arch so wrote a lot, take ur time! I'm open for any suggestions or criticism !

Rockyhelmet mesprit
Shucaberry Lanturn
Thunder bolt weezing
Floatzel
Raichu
Carracosta
Togedemaru Iron barbs even better
Priority
Pu offense is about who hits harder first so Kingler specs pyroar aurorus are at least as dangerous and not easier to RK.
This is might come across as me shooting your post down. Please don't think that. I appreciate your perspective and while I do see some of your points, I respectfully disagree with others.

1) Archeops is said to be too much for stall and offense.
To begin, I'm not a fan of rocky helmet mesprit, I think colbur is a much more viable item on defensive mesprit. That being said, I haven't played with RH mesprit all that much so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I don't think defensive mesprit is the best answer to archeops as it gets 3hko'd after rocks and is already pressured to handle fighting types and set its own rocks. Additionally, I really don't like the idea of RH spiritomb. Arch has a 47.7% chance to 2hko def tomb after SR so it's not something you can reliably switch in. Crotomb prefers lefties and AoA mixed tomb prefers Black Glasses/LO/Darkinium as well so it's just not a great item pairing imo. Archs ability or lack thereof to 1v1 kingler also isn't the most relevant point as arch can't 1v1 a lot of things. The mon is threatening because when it comes in on something it can 1v1 it has the ability to 2hko most any other switch. I do think your point about iron barbs togedemaru is more applicable as it can pivot in and gain you momentum in the process. So that's definitely a point in favor of us having a semi-reliable check on offense. TLDR: Not a fan of rocky helmet on mons that get 2hko'd/3hko'd to check archeops. Emphasis on what it can 2hko rather than what 1v1s it in a perfect scenario. Toge is a decent check if you can predict right.

2) It is too fast and too strong
The mon hits a speed tier that only Floatzel revenges without risking a speed tie or running scarf. We don't have common ice and water priority to force it out with our best super effective priority being abomasnow and carracosta which the former can't adequately revenge and the latter being fairly uncommon due to the nature/support needs of its most common set (thereby making it difficult to just throw it on teams). In terms of power, arch can 2hko most of mons on balance outside of walls and even then the most common walls like weezing/gastro can be pushed into range to be 2hko'd by pressuring it with uturn on teammates/status/hazards. For this reason I have to disagree on its lack of power. Not using an item does not necessarily mean it doesn't have the power to be extremely threatening. I'd also make the argument that Acrobatics is extremely spammable as our main flying resist in the tier is Regirock with eelektross risking the 2hko from a subsequent Stone edge after rocks with even a little chip. TLDR: Not enough relevant priority. Hits a hard to check speed tier. Breaks walls with very little chip from teammates. Acro is spammable against most teams.

3) It has no reliable counterplay
Most of the mons you list here can be easily checked with teammates or in Eels case, just clicking stone edge presuming you were able to get ~10% off of it at some point in the game. While I do agree that stall can handle (non-taunt) archeops, I do not agree that balance comfortably handles the mon (previously discussed above). I'd make the argument the while Archeops allows you to check fast threats like pyroar and zangoose like you mentioned, it becomes a new speed tier to need to build for that isn't naturally checked during teambuilding. As mentioned early, super effective priority isn't that common. Lastly, your counterplay list has some stuff that I feel just shouldn't be run or speed ties with arch therefore only works 50% of the time (Tbolt weezing, shuca lanturn especially outside of Magmortar meta, raichu). Additionally, other wallbreakers like pyroar and aurorus have common priority weaknesses so it makes them much easier to check on balance. TLDR: Checks are passive and teammates handle them. Stall can handle non-taunt arch but struggles vs taunt sets. Balance doesn't handle it all that well. Other wallbreakers have priority weakness. Counterplay mentioned is niche or forces 50/50s.
 

Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
This is might come across as me shooting your post down. Please don't think that. I appreciate your perspective and while I do see some of your points, I respectfully disagree with others.

1) Archeops is said to be too much for stall and offense.
To begin, I'm not a fan of rocky helmet mesprit, I think colbur is a much more viable item on defensive mesprit. That being said, I haven't played with RH mesprit all that much so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I don't think defensive mesprit is the best answer to archeops as it gets 3hko'd after rocks and is already pressured to handle fighting types and set its own rocks. Additionally, I really don't like the idea of RH spiritomb. Arch has a 47.7% chance to 2hko def tomb after SR so it's not something you can reliably switch in. Crotomb prefers lefties and AoA mixed tomb prefers Black Glasses/LO/Darkinium as well so it's just not a great item pairing imo. Archs ability or lack thereof to 1v1 kingler also isn't the most relevant point as arch can't 1v1 a lot of things. The mon is threatening because when it comes in on something it can 1v1 it has the ability to 2hko most any other switch. I do think your point about iron barbs togedemaru is more applicable as it can pivot in and gain you momentum in the process. So that's definitely a point in favor of us having a semi-reliable check on offense. TLDR: Not a fan of rocky helmet on mons that get 2hko'd/3hko'd to check archeops. Emphasis on what it can 2hko rather than what 1v1s it in a perfect scenario. Toge is a decent check if you can predict right.

2) It is too fast and too strong
The mon hits a speed tier that only Floatzel revenges without risking a speed tie or running scarf. We don't have common ice and water priority to force it out with our best super effective priority being abomasnow and carracosta which the former can't adequately revenge and the latter being fairly uncommon due to the nature/support needs of its most common set (thereby making it difficult to just throw it on teams). In terms of power, arch can 2hko most of mons on balance outside of walls and even then the most common walls like weezing/gastro can be pushed into range to be 2hko'd by pressuring it with uturn on teammates/status/hazards. For this reason I have to disagree on its lack of power. Not using an item does not necessarily mean it doesn't have the power to be extremely threatening. I'd also make the argument that Acrobatics is extremely spammable as our main flying resist in the tier is Regirock with eelektross risking the 2hko from a subsequent Stone edge after rocks with even a little chip. TLDR: Not enough relevant priority. Hits a hard to check speed tier. Breaks walls with very little chip from teammates. Acro is spammable against most teams.

3) It has no reliable counterplay
Most of the mons you list here can be easily checked with teammates or in Eels case, just clicking stone edge presuming you were able to get ~10% off of it at some point in the game. While I do agree that stall can handle (non-taunt) archeops, I do not agree that balance comfortably handles the mon (previously discussed above). I'd make the argument the while Archeops allows you to check fast threats like pyroar and zangoose like you mentioned, it becomes a new speed tier to need to build for that isn't naturally checked during teambuilding. As mentioned early, super effective priority isn't that common. Lastly, your counterplay list has some stuff that I feel just shouldn't be run or speed ties with arch therefore only works 50% of the time (Tbolt weezing, shuca lanturn especially outside of Magmortar meta, raichu). Additionally, other wallbreakers like pyroar and aurorus have common priority weaknesses so it makes them much easier to check on balance. TLDR: Checks are passive and teammates handle them. Stall can handle non-taunt arch but struggles vs taunt sets. Balance doesn't handle it all that well. Other wallbreakers have priority weakness. Counterplay mentioned is niche or forces 50/50s.
Your arguments are extremely solid and are what I expected to trigger with my post, because I feel the former ones are too short to correctly justify a ban. I reckon my offense counterplay is shaky af but I think people completely overestimate archeops pressuring capabilities : almost no switchin in offense, alright. But do you realize (not you GeneralAnnoyance but all of the players) that Archeops can only come once if it takes ironbarbs, rocky helmet or any weak move like sludge bomb or quick attack after the unavoidable stealth rock damage? I won't even take into account where u manage to play archeops with no rocks on the field because it's just impossible and counterproductive with the momentum needed to use archeops. Roosting with arch is tremendously hard and unlikely, and using healing wish to heal it so that it gets forced out and struggles to come again while u can heal an agility kingler, gurdurr or scarfer for a potential cleaning is not worth it. So if there is one of my arguments that I will claim again it's how hard it is to bring archeops and the possibility it doesn't even do its job because of a single predict like going togedemaru, or because of chip damage putting it under 75% meaning it will have to roost next time and therefore lose all the pressuring potential it is supposed to have. In a word , stealth rock+defeatist+a check is often enough to prevent archeops to open severe holes in ur OFFENSE team, which means soft checks and predicts (and priority in bonus ) should be enough and I think it's enough after laddering and playing some tour games vs arch. If you want to argue about rocks being defoggable I won't develop it anymore because I've never seen anyone and I myself have never managed to Defog more than once per game and imo it's just easier to use arch a few times to RK something or check a zangoose oricorio etc without defogging as if arch was your saviour which results in a waste of momentum.

Now about your (General A) argument about passive counters and possibility to easily pressure them with arch teammates:
-Arch is paired with a defogger/spinner (skunk chan silvally) which don't synergize like wonders with it: they lose to gastro , are no reliable switches to regirock eelektross or lose momentum Vs ferroseed because forced to defog
-arch is paired with a stealth rock setter (not new ig) which should be a support mon (aggron rocks is the only offensive rocker iirc and isn't great partner to arch imo) so you are not pressuring arch counters with that (mesprit clefairy)
-so after scarfer slot we have two pokemons left to pressure archs counters , but 1) your opponent knows what arch does so you pair it the physical wall with a special mon and u usually handle arch+partners enough turns to render arch useless. 2) Balance has staying power and arch hates long battles due to its fear of any kind of damage. Roosting with arch Vs balance is a huge waste of momentum where ur oppo will start pressuring your team. Also you soon realise u can't really bring arch whenever u want or need to and find yourself playing more passively.

Finally I'll just say my opinion on Archs moveset (4th slot ): I think the best options are U-Turn by far because gets the chip damage needed to Ko later which is more than crucial because a mesprit/gurdurr/whatever without 60/60 defense stats (example) with 2% extra hp above maxroll can totally destroy Archs plans and I've experienced that a lot: U-Turn is huge . Then Knock off is great Vs balance to pressure walls and not attacking for no result . Stone edge isn't great imo : misses and only hits eelektross /opposing arch.

That's all for today , sorry but apparently nobody has decided to defend archeops so I feel obligated to say as much as I can with all my sincerity . Looking forward to getting replies.

EDIT: if u u have no check left and don't want to play 5050s then sack , that also happens vs many other pokes when using offense. Your checks should last enough and gain enough momentum to frustrate the arch user.
 
Last edited:

MZ

And now for something completely different
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
HJAD - Last Wednesday at 3:27 PM
sup dudos
i have another idea
basically what i wanna try and achieve is some transparency with relation to what we are doing to make the metagame better
and also achieve more interaction in the tier
we have a million almost users that are good but not quite there
so what i wanna suggest is like a weekly council newsletter that we post in the np: thread
so basically
whats happened in the last week
meta shifts which appearing to happen
and some casual talk between council members
So the above proposal ended up getting turned into what we plan to be a weekly podcast between myself, HJAD, and whatever guests we feel like getting, heavily inspired by what Kiyo and Kay did for NU's Sneasel suspect. The plan is that, on Tuesdays, I'll be uploading a 10-20 minute talk to my youtube channel that updates people on how council feels about the meta, opinions on the VR, tournament discussion, or other PU related things (potentially other Smogon things as a whole, who knows, but for now we'll just stick to what we know). We know it's not quite as convenient as just reading a forum post, but it's a lot easier to bounce ideas off each other and give more honest feedback then trying to write some big combination post every week. I don't plan to post all of them here, but this is fairly relevant to the suspect and kind of responds to Ktütverde a little bit (just because nobody else has made anti-ban posts) so yeah. Feedback or discussion topics or anything like that would be greatly appreciated, but please keep responses about the video rather than the points in it to Discord or Youtube, I don't wanna sidetrack this thread with self-promotion.
 

2xTheTap

YuGiOh main
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
A few arguments presented above have overrated Archeops' potency to the point that it may seem to an inexperienced PU player that in the hands of a pro, Archeops just breaks teams with little to no effort.

I think there's actually a reasonable degree of counterplay to Archeops, if you take the time to examine the various components of offense, balance, or bulky offense that are often stacked together. For example, other arguments above have mentioned bulkier Pokemon, like Regirock, Eelektross, Gastrodon, Mudsdale, Ferroseed, Rocky Helmet Spiritomb, Rocky Helmet Mesprit, etc. Archeops basically relies on its teammates to chip these down before it cleans up (while avoiding switching into SR or status itself), so there are just some games when Archeops is too pressured to come in, while it must wait for some other component of its team to be sacrificed in order to enter the battle safely. I think maybe it was Sam I Yam, but there are some games where it feels like 5v6 or like 7v6 when you're using Archeops, depending on various factors like match-up, if SR is up, how much chip you've gotten on surefire switch-ins like Regirock, etc. This can go either way and it really depends on the skill level of each player, which hints at the idea that its overall effectiveness may have been overstated in pro-ban arguments - said differently, it's not broken to the point using Archeops guarantees victory in every battle, rather, winning with Archeops is more reliant on having a good match-up.

Doing well with Archeops also demands that you first deduce the opponent's Choice Scarf user correctly from preview, accurately predict and play around forms of priority like Sucker Punch (or Sableye's priority Wisp, although this isn't terribly common), and keep in mind that the targets you aim to KO with Acrobatics can wear Archeops down via forms of residual damage like Rocky Helmet or Iron Barbs to the point Defeatist activates the next time Archeops switches into Stealth Rock. And of course, keeping Stealth Rock off the field is very important for Archeops breaking the other team, which effectively boils down to a game of preventing SR from going up and/or keeping your option for entry hazard removal alive (in this meta, that's essentially Skuntank, Swanna, Hitmonchan). Luring or just walling these Pokemon with hazard removal completely with the goal of applying offensive pressure via SR is very possible, so Archeops is often pidgey-holed (haha) into using Taunt as its 4th moveslot to prevent SR from going up at all, while also preventing itself from being afflicted by status and bulky components of balance or bulky offense like Gastrodon from healing themselves. In turn, this results in Archeops using its customizable 4th moveslot for Taunt more often than not, which leaves it less versatile and more predictable. Occasionally, it'll run a niche slot to lure a specific threat (ex. Heat Wave for Ferroseed, Earth Power for a harder hit on Regirock and Carracosta, Stone Edge for more damage on Eelektross, PomPom, other Archeops, etc.), but it's really just going to stick to that standard set of Taunt / Acrobatics / Earthquake / Roost on most offensive teams, especially if the aim is to protect hazards set by teammates.

It's also been stated that Archeops limits the effectiveness of multiple team archetypes (not just offense, but stall too), but if you look at the most commonly used Choice Scarf users on offense (Togedemaru, Primeape), as well as Pokemon that naturally exceed this Speed tier, most notably Lycanroc and Floatzel, most well-constructed teams have the tools they need to revenge kill or switch into Archeops (even Stall can make use of Regirock, if you find Eldin's team on ladder as an example of that). Weather based sweepers like Kabutops, Ludicolo, Poliwrath, Alolan Sandslash, etc., which I often saw on the ladder this time around (I saw a lot of Rain teams like LordST's team from lab, as well as some other slightly different versions played by Skipkan and UberSkitty) easily check Archeops. Sun and Sand are rarely seen, but these constructs also employ weather boosted sweepers that can check Archeops (Sun also uses Regirock as a setter, so it already has its counter, too). The most common weather core for bulky offense is Aurorus + Z Jolly Alolan Sandslash, though; both check Archeops from full, assuming Archeops is not running Stone Edge in Aurorus' case (252 Atk Archeops Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aurorus: 302-356 (78 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Consider too that there are other Flying resists that are not OHKOed by Earthquake, like Aggron and Carracosta; while they may not be as "splashable" as Regirock, they still fit nicely on offensive teams. Even after this suspect, you will still probably build with these fat Normal resists to address threats like Stoutland, Pyroar, Kangaskhan, etc., which may point more to Regirock's utility in the meta for stopping multiple top tier threats, rather than to how centralizing Archeops can be.

I just obtained reqs and am still a little torn on what I'll vote. Banning Archeops will most likely help teambuilding to be less daunting and misery-inducing, but getting rid of it because 'it beats all team archetypes except for balance' or 'all you have to do is spam EQ on Regirock!' are both terrible arguments that I've heard recently.
 
Last edited:
Sup peeps, just wanna have some friendly Post-Archeops meta discussion, since I think it leaving really frees up a lot of the Offensive meta, which should stand in a much better place now that one of the key limiting factors towards it has been banned. I felt like, Pre-Archeops ban, offense sorta just sucked as a playstyle. It felt inferior to balance because you could put the same amount of pressure using a balance team as you were capable of using an offense style team, because good balance really didn't relieve too much momentum. On top of this, using a fatter team, the dependence on you as a player to play flawlessly is much less since you have a bulky core to switch into 95% of the meta. Offense didn't have these perks, and although people have been successful using Offense style teams, I think thats purely from the standpoint that people just didn't properly prepare for it and would rather invest in a much more dependable bulk vs bulk matchup than bulk vs offense for example. Now though, I feel like it was a really crucial roll to play in this upcoming meta. With balance teams really surging in popularity (along with the now obligatory ferroclef cores), I feel like offense can play a really key roll in having a more invested matchup in terms of taking down balance. Offense, especially now that Archeops has left the building, can now free up its pokemon slots to run much more niche counter-balance Pokemon that couldn't be afforded previously as a specific ploy to take on fat Balance teams. Some stuff i've been speculating might find their way onto more offense teams have been SubSmash Gorebyss, SD Combusken, SD Absol, SubKissNP Jynx, Dual Dance Torterra, and Offensive Mawile. All of these bring insta win credentials to an offense teams attempting to play vs a balance. This is why is was quite insistent that the only good outcome of this Arch suspect was a Ban. Having these Pokemon be free'd because Offense has less to worry about Offensively allows it to flourish more as a playstyle; it feeds off of a users ability to just give 0 shits and bring mons that have specific matchup advantages versus more common and safer playstyles. Having a good offensive threat in the tier makes it overall less mundane, and so that you don't get specific fat balance teams really pushing Offense into obscurity. Overall, im pleased that Archeops got the boot; it should help bring Offense back into the fray and lessen the tensions on building.

In other news, myself and cute loli Megazard have released Episode 2 of our weekly Untier Talk. In this one, we talk about the Viability Rankings and when and why certain Pokemon are ranked in certain areas. Take a look!:
 

2xTheTap

YuGiOh main
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
After examining various meta trends, I believe Lampent may have a place in the current meta for its ability to wall and setup alongside offensive and defensive threats in PU. It is admittedly a niche pick right now, but the list of Pokemon that it addresses by itself is reasonably long.

Historically, gen 7 building patterns have favored Bulky Offense and Balance over other team archetypes due to the sheer number of threats we had to account for, and so components of Balance like Clefairy, Ferroseed, Gastrodon, etc. that functioned as blanket checks to either the specially offensive or physically offensive portions of the meta received more usage. As a result, wallbreakers and sweepers with access to Fire and Grass coverage (and/or the ability to stop Clefairy from recovering HP) were commonly used to break cores with Ferroseed and Gastrodon, so you often saw and had to account for Pokemon like HP Fire Lilligant, Taunt Firium Z Pyroar, Specs or Taunt Magmortar, and so on.

This trend still persists, especially now that Ferroseed is our most common Spikes setter (rip Qwilfish). Simultaneously, two great checks to Grass-types were just recently banned (i.e. Archeops and Magmortar), so offensive Grass-types like Bellossom, Lilligant, Lurantis, etc. are arguably more effective than they were even a few a months ago. This is apparent if you look at games from seasonals like HJAD v Pepeduce where Lurantis picks up momentum at turn 13 and just keeps up offensive pressure for the rest of the game while picking up 3 KOs in the process.
What's more, Kingler's increased usage is also providing us with more reason to build with them as a result, so Grass-types in general are as potent and as common as ever and need to be prepped for. This is where Lampent comes in, and with the following set, it would probably okay to start this at D on the VR until people start picking it up more for its ability to check multiple threats in one slot.


Lampent @ Eviolite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Flamethrower

While it may be weak to commonly used Pursuit trappers like Skuntank and Spiritomb and heavy hitters like Kingler and Stoutland, Lampent finds a definable niche in its ability to wall many offensive and defensive threats by virtue of its typing, ability, and special bulk. For starters, it does well against those FerroClef builds that have become more common recently, as it walls and sets up alongside Clefairy while forcing Ferroseed out on threat of Flamethrower. It's also one of the only true 'hard counters' to Lilligant, as it is immune to both Z Hyper Beam and HP Fire, takes negligible damage from its boosted Grass STABs, and can still attack through Sleep Powder thanks to its access to Sleep Talk. Additionally, Lampent counters Pyroar, which is an important threat to address in this Ferroseed-heavy meta. Just scouting with Protect to see what it locked to isn't a surefire way to answer Pyroar anymore given the existence of Taunt sets with Firium Z, but building with Lampent is. If Lampent is used more, this would force players to compensate by running Dark Pulse on Pyroar later (however, keep in mind that +1 SpD Lampent isn't 2HKOed by Specs Dark Pulse). Some more examples of what Lampent does: Lampent is immune to Hitmonchan's Fighting STABs and takes very little from Ice Punch, which lets it spinblock effectively in games vs Hitmonchan; Bellossom is a similar case to Lilligant and will basically be hard-walled until it starts to run HP Rock; Lurantis' Superpower and Leaf Storm are both stopped cold; Weezing often activates Lampent's Flash Fire and gives it switch-in initiative, while Lampent does not care about Toxic Spikes; Type:Null and Munchlax cannot hit it without running niche coverage; Timid Specs Mesprit's Psychic is a 3HKO and so it effectively has to run Psyshock or Trick to win if Lampent has set up via Calm Mind, etc. There's more to talk about here, but you can basically use Lampent to beat these Pokemon, assuming standard sets:
Pyroar
Hitmonchan
Combusken
Lilligant
Tangela
Shiinotic
Lurantis
Bellossom
Weezing
Ferroseed
Munchlax
Type:Null
Bronzor
Articuno
Gourgeist-XL
Silvally-Fairy
Silvally-Dragon
Roselia
Regice
Victreebel
Clefairy
Jynx (lacking Psyshock)
Abomasnow (lacking Earthquake)
Manectric
Mesprit (lacking Psyshock)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 80-95 (24.7 - 29.4%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after hail damage

252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 152-180 (47 - 55.7%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Dark Pulse vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 102-122 (31.5 - 37.7%) -- 89.2% chance to 3HKO

+6 252 SpA Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 143-168 (44.2 - 52%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Lampent: 47-55 (14.5 - 17%) -- possible 6HKO

(Timid) 252 SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 126-148 (39 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Modest) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 136-162 (42.1 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

+6 0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 89-105 (27.5 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 139-164 (43 - 50.7%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Articuno Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 96-114 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- 17.1% chance to 3HKO

This post may have been a little out there, but the same was said when I suggested to other QC that specially defensive Carbink should receive a set when Drampa was at its peak in usage.
 
Last edited:

Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
After examining various meta trends, I believe Lampent may have a place in the current meta for its ability to wall and setup alongside offensive and defensive threats in PU. It is admittedly a niche pick right now, but the list of Pokemon that it addresses by itself is reasonably long.

Historically, gen 7 building patterns have favored Bulky Offense and Balance over other team archetypes due to the sheer number of threats we had to account for, and so components of Balance like Clefairy, Ferroseed, Gastrodon, etc. that functioned as blanket checks to either the specially offensive or physically offensive portions of the meta received more usage. As a result, wallbreakers and sweepers with access to Fire and Grass coverage (and/or the ability to stop Clefairy from recovering HP) were commonly used to break cores with Ferroseed and Gastrodon, so you often saw and had to account for Pokemon like HP Fire Lilligant, Taunt Firium Z Pyroar, Specs or Taunt Magmortar, and so on.

This trend still persists, especially now that Ferroseed is our most common Spikes setter (rip Qwilfish). Simultaneously, two great checks to Grass-types were just recently banned (i.e. Archeops and Magmortar), so offensive Grass-types like Bellossom, Lilligant, Lurantis, etc. are arguably more effective than they were even a few a months ago. This is apparent if you look at games from seasonals like HJAD v Pepeduce where Lurantis picks up momentum at turn 13 and just keeps up offensive pressure for the rest of the game while picking up 3 KOs in the process.
What's more, Kingler's increased usage is also providing us with more reason to build with them as a result, so Grass-types in general are as potent and as common as ever and need to be prepped for. This is where Lampent comes in, and with the following set, it would probably okay to start this at D on the VR until people start picking it up more for its ability to check multiple threats in one slot.


Lampent @ Eviolite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Flamethrower

While it may be weak to commonly used Pursuit trappers like Skuntank and Spiritomb and heavy hitters like Kingler and Stoutland, Lampent finds a definable niche in its ability to wall many offensive and defensive threats by virtue of its typing, ability, and special bulk. For starters, it does well against those FerroClef builds that have become more common recently, as it walls and sets up alongside Clefairy while forcing Ferroseed out on threat of Flamethrower. It's also one of the only true 'hard counters' to Lilligant, as it is immune to both Z Hyper Beam and HP Fire, takes negligible damage from its boosted Grass STABs, and can still attack through Sleep Powder thanks to its access to Sleep Talk. Additionally, Lampent counters Pyroar, which is an important threat to address in this Ferroseed-heavy meta. Just scouting with Protect to see what it locked to isn't a surefire way to answer Pyroar anymore given the existence of Taunt sets with Firium Z, but building with Lampent is. If Lampent is used more, this would force players to compensate by running Dark Pulse on Pyroar later (however, keep in mind that +1 SpD Lampent isn't 2HKOed by Specs Dark Pulse). Some more examples of what Lampent does: Lampent is immune to Hitmonchan's Fighting STABs and takes very little from Ice Punch, which lets it spinblock effectively in games vs Hitmonchan; Bellossom is a similar case to Lilligant and will basically be hard-walled until it starts to run HP Rock; Lurantis' Superpower and Leaf Storm are both stopped cold; Weezing often activates Lampent's Flash Fire and gives it switch-in initiative, while Lampent does not care about Toxic Spikes; Type:Null and Munchlax cannot hit it without running niche coverage; Timid Specs Mesprit's Psychic is a 3HKO and so it effectively has to run Psyshock or Trick to win if Lampent has set up via Calm Mind, etc. There's more to talk about here, but you can basically use Lampent to beat these Pokemon, assuming standard sets:
Pyroar
Hitmonchan
Combusken
Lilligant
Tangela
Shiinotic
Lurantis
Bellossom
Weezing
Ferroseed
Munchlax
Type:Null
Bronzor
Articuno
Gourgeist-XL
Silvally-Fairy
Silvally-Dragon
Roselia
Regice
Victreebel
Clefairy
Jynx (lacking Psyshock)
Abomasnow (lacking Earthquake)
Manectric
Mesprit (lacking Psyshock)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 80-95 (24.7 - 29.4%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after hail damage

252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 152-180 (47 - 55.7%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Dark Pulse vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 102-122 (31.5 - 37.7%) -- 89.2% chance to 3HKO

+6 252 SpA Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 143-168 (44.2 - 52%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Lampent: 47-55 (14.5 - 17%) -- possible 6HKO

(Timid) 252 SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 126-148 (39 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Modest) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 136-162 (42.1 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

+6 0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 89-105 (27.5 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 139-164 (43 - 50.7%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Articuno Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 96-114 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- 17.1% chance to 3HKO

This post may have been a little out there, but the same was said when I suggested to other QC that specially defensive Carbink should receive a set when Drampa was at its peak in usage.
I don't know if anyone can post here outside of suspect tests, or if it should be kept for major announcements; sorry in advance if it's the case.
Replying to 2xthetap:

252 Atk Skuntank Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Eviolite Lampent: 102-120 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Also: probability to NOT burn via flamebody is 0.66. It means the probabilty to NOT burn in 2 consecutives turns is 0.66 x 0.66 = 0.44 so lower than 1/2. That's why I think using Flame Body is a very good idea in order to win vs skuntank most of the time (1 pursuit, 2 pursuits and you use rest, 3rd pursuit: say "haxx" and ff if it doesn't burn).

Lampent doesn't really mind taking pyroar's moves even without flashfire:
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Eviolite Lampent: 81-96 (25 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

So I would like to suggest this set:


Lampent @ Eviolite
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 220 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Flamethrower

Looking forward to receiving feedback. Also what is the 8 speed Evs for?
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
HJAD and I have thoughts about the post-arch meta in here. And yeah these are probably gonna get posted weekly, get used to it. tldw is basically Aurorus is quite good but doesn't feel like a super pressing issue the way arch or mag did
 
Hello! MZ and HJAD have done such a great job keeping us updated with untier talk that there hasn’t been a ton of discussion in this thread recently! I wanted to share my thoughts on the recent meta trend changes, and then how things could change with the predicted drops.

1529517489780.png


Aurorus:

If you were to rely solely on this thread for your PU Meta news, you’d probably think that Aurorus is still broken. Although there hasn’t been a whole lot of official discussion on the matter, I’d say the general feel of Aurorus in the metagame has really changed over the past month or so. I haven’t seen any major players complain about it in a while, I think that’s partially due to players simply adapting to threats by running mons like audino, lanturn, etc, but also due to the metagame being so incredibly centered around fighting types. This brings us to the current metagame:

If I were to name the most defining themes in PU right now I’d say it really boils down to: Fighting types & Checking fighting types. In my opinion having at least 1 (preferably 2) fighting checks has become just as mandatory as having a stealth rock user. For example, we have Hitmonchan, Primeape and Gurdurr all @ top 10 Usage %. On the flip side, you’ll also find Mesprit, Weezing & Spiritomb consistently in top 10% usage. This isn’t anything completely new to PU and although this fighting+fighting check theme is at an all time high right now, I think we will see some massive shake ups based on the predicted drops. Since this is all speculation, I’m gonna limit myself to just discussing what I think will be most important drop;

1529517531247.png


Jellicent:

If this actually drops, I predict it will be the most meta-defining new pokemon we’ve seen in a long time. On paper Jellicent will have the versatility to run multiple viable sets. In the most recent untier talk, HJAD briefly mentioned a choiced set which at first sounds like a meme – but could prove to be surprisingly threatening

Calcs:

  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Jellicent Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hitmonchan: 169-201 (57.6 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Jellicent Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 219-258 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Jellicent Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 174-205 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


As you can see, jellicent can clearly function as an offensive presence.

Taunt Jellicent will completely dismantle standard defensive cores. Passive special switch ins like Gastro, Audino, Ferro, Clef, all get 1v1’d by Taunt/Recover.

Base 60 speed really is an incredible speed tier for a Utility/Glue mon like Jelli. You basically have the potential to creep every utility mon in the tier except for like wish Togedemaru or fat-oricorios.

I am super excited for jellicent because I think it can really shake up the Fighting + Fighting Check trend. Here’s why:

Right now the common way for the Fighting type user to wear down checks is to go into something like Primeape, Click U-Turn on the incoming mesprit, and then go into Spiritomb or Skuntank and pursuit the mesprit for damage. Depending on the mesprit set you may need to rinse and repeat this an additional time to fully kill the fighting check, but that’s not the main point. Take that same scenario, but now give the Mesprit user a Jellicent instead. Crunch Skuntank can do 30% to colbur Jelli, and then get burned and proceed to get 1v1’d by recover. Spiritomb has an even less favorable matchup. There is not even a real 50/50 in this scenario, since the jellicent user can almost always stay in on the pursuit user and click wisp. I believe that having a spin blocker / fighting check that can confidently and reliably stay in on the top ranked pursuit users in the tier would shift the metagame more than any of us will expect.


Ok I promised myself I’d only talk about one mon, so I won’t get into qwillfish, but I really hope it drops as I think it would balance the tier out quite nicely.
 

SergioRules

||blimp||
is a Community Contributor

If Sam won't talk about Qwilfish, then I sure will. I don't really know how much I need to say since we did already have Qwilfish earlier in the meta, but things have definitely shifted around since then.

Qwilfish, in my opinion, would be a great addition to the metagame and really help shake things up from what I can assume. Qwilfish on its own can effectively beat the ever present FerroClef core if running Taunt (which it probably always should), checks physical Skuntank, Gurdurr, Carracosta, Hitmonchan, as well as a fair number of other physical attackers. I saved Kingler for its own part because Qwilfish is both good and bad for it. Qwilfish is probably one of the best Kingler checks out there, resisting its Water moves and Superpower, being faster than it and therefore Taunting it to prevent setup, and of course the obvious Intimidate to lower its Attack. On the other hand though, Qwilfish also provides Spikes support which Kingler and other offensive mons love to abuse. On top of all this, it also has things like Thunder Wave to provide speed control, Explosion to attempt to get setup mons in on things they can take advantage of, and Destiny Bond to KO stuff that threatens your main attackers.

I feel like Qwil will have a decently big impact on the meta, especially in terms of offense. Offense teams still have to run things like Gastro or Poliwrath or a very fast scarfer to avoid losing to Agility Kingler, if Qwil drops, they can have a Kingler check and Spikes in one slot which will definitely help with role compression and keeping up pressure that offense teams definitely like to have.

Obviously I know I'm still not an expert on this kind of speculation, but I think Qwilfish would be an excellent addition to the tier if it does end up dropping and could really help shake things up.
 

yogi

I did not succumb...
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
So people above have been discussing potential drops and even the effect Aurorus has had on the meta, but I haven't seen too much discussion on potential rises and how that'll affect the meta, so I thought I'd have a stab at that.


Ferroseed rising to NU

This will, by far, be the most meta changing rise that we could experience. I say could because it's skirting around 3.4% right now meaning that a slight decrease in usage could keep it PU, but I'm doubtful of that. By far one of the best glue Pokemon in the tier, which is shown by its current S rank, losing Ferroseed would affect a lot of balance teams that rely on it to blanket check a load of different Pokemon whilst also being used to force switches and scout for movesets. Being the best, and pretty much only, relevant Spike setter, may affect how teams handle their hazard control, meaning they could be a bit more lax with it. With Ferroseed rising, the infamous FerroClef hazard stacking core would also not be something that builders have to actively consider when making their teams; this will affect teambuilding, as this would mean balance teams would struggle slightly more without such a powerful core. I do however believe that it may also shake up teambuilding a bit, seeing balance teams being far less reliant on FerroClef as an easy form of glue and instead looking towards other Pokemon.


Gastrodon rising to OU

This is inevitable. With a usage of around 5% in OU, we are certainly losing Gastrodon. While not exactly a top tier threat, Gastrodon is a fairly decent defensive pivot that sees usage on teams weak to Rain or Kingler, and even being able to check Fire-types like Pyroar and Combusken fairly well. I don't think many teams will suffer from its rise, bar a few that rely on it to check the aforementioned Pokemon, but I firmly believe losing Gastrodon would be slightly detrimental to building, and make it slightly more restrictive thanks to the role compression that it offers. Kingler will only get better too, which is worrying given how both Ferroseed and Gastrodon are leaving; yes, I know that Substitute Kingler beats Ferroseed, but it's a rather uncommon set, with Agility+Swords Dance being the more common set. Even wallbreakers like Aggron would get much better, losing a hard counter like Gastrodon.


Stoutland rising to NU

Definitely the rise that I'm most happy about, even though it'll only be for a short amount of time if NU bans Gigalith. Stoutland absolutely destroys teams that rely on Ghost-types being their Normal-type check, like Spiritomb or Bulky Oricorio-G, meaning that you basically need a Rock- or Steel-type, like Regirock and Ferroseed, or a bulky check, such as Weezing (more preferably Rocky Helmet when accounting for Stoutland) and Gurdurr. It puts a decent amount of restriction on teambuilding and forces a lot of 50/50s against the aforementioned Rock- and Steel-type checks thanks to Superpower. A few metas ago you basically chose what you lost to when considering Stoutland, Kingler, Magmortar, Aurorus, and Archeops; and, while we're in a far more balanced meta, I think it'd definitely be interesting to view our meta without Stoutland for a short amount of time.

These are just some brief thoughts that I had, and I'll probably post something later on potential drops too.
 
Last edited:
So people above have been discussing potential drops and even the effect Aurorus has had on the meta, but I haven't seen too much discussion on potential rises and how that'll affect the meta, so I thought I'd have a stab at that.


Ferroseed rising to NU

This will, by far, be the most meta changing rise that we could experience. I say could because it's skirting around 3.4% right now meaning that a slight decrease in usage could keep it PU, but I'm doubtful of that. By far one of the best glue Pokemon in the tier, which is shown by its current S rank, losing Ferroseed would affect a lot of balance teams that rely on it to blanket check a load of different Pokemon whilst also being used to force switches and scout for movesets. Being the best, and pretty much only, relevant Spike setter, may affect how teams handle their hazard control, meaning they could be a bit more lax with it. With Ferroseed rising, the infamous FerroClef hazard stacking core would also not be something that builders have to actively consider when making their teams; this will affect teambuilding, as this would mean balance teams would struggle slightly more without such a powerful core. I do however believe that it may also shake up teambuilding a bit, seeing balance teams being far less reliant on FerroClef as an easy form of glue and instead looking towards other Pokemon.


Gastrodon rising to OU

This is inevitable. With a usage of around 5% in OU, we are certainly losing Gastrodon. While not exactly a top tier threat, Gastrodon is a fairly decent defensive pivot that sees usage on teams weak to Rain or Kingler, and even being able to check Fire-types like Pyroar and Combusken fairly well. I don't think many teams will suffer from its rise, bar a few that rely on it to check the aforementioned Pokemon, but I firmly believe losing Gastrodon would be slightly detrimental to building, and make it slightly more restrictive thanks to the role compression that it offers. Kingler will only get better too, which is worrying given how both Ferroseed and Gastrodon are leaving; yes, I know that Substitute Kingler beats Ferroseed, but it's a rather uncommon set, with Agility+Swords Dance being the more common set. Even wallbreakers like Aggron would get much better, losing a hard counter like Gastrodon.


Stoutland rising to NU

Definitely the rise that I'm most happy about, even though it'll only be for a short amount of time if NU bans Gigalith. Stoutland absolutely destroys teams that rely on Ghost-types being their Normal-type check, like Spiritomb or Bulky Oricorio-G, meaning that you basically need a Rock- or Steel-type, like Regirock and Ferroseed, or a bulky check, such as Weezing (more preferably Rocky Helmet when accounting for Stoutland) and Gurdurr. It puts a decent amount of restriction on teambuilding and forces a lot of 50/50s against the aforementioned Rock- and Steel-type checks thanks to Superpower. A few metas ago you basically chose what you lost to when considering Stoutland, Kingler, Magmortar, Aurorus, and Archeops; and, while we're in a far more balanced meta, I think it'd definitely be interesting to view our meta without Stoutland for a short amount of time.

These are just some brief thoughts that I had, and I'll probably post something later on potential drops too.
Just wanted to mention that Ninetales will probably rise within the next tier shift too. If it doesn't rise in July, Ninetales will surely rise in October as it's usage skyrocketed from basically nothing to 3,1% in like 3 months. Yeah it is C-Rank in the Viability Ranking, won't make a big impact regardless
 

termi

bike is short for bichael
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
The meta could potentially get flipped on its head come July, so there's a lot to discuss with regard to potential meta shifts. A general change I can see happening is that the meta is going to become less centered around fat balance due to Ferroseed and Gastrodon potentially leaving and the advent of several hazard setters that fit comfortably on fast offensive teams. Fighting types have been dominant in PU for a while now but with all of Jellicent, Aromatisse, Qwilfish, Uxie, and Altaria potentially dropping, a diverse set of great Fighting resists enters the tier and none of our Fighting types are equipped to deal with all of them at once (that said, one or two of these might be too much for the meta anyway so their stay would be temporary).

Some thoughts I have on potential shifts that haven't been discussed in here yet, roughly ordered from what I estimate to be the most impactful/viable to least:

: Get your Regirocks ready because we might be getting a new base 110 Speed Flying-type, except this time it doesn't have Defeatist, can run an item without weakening its bird STAB, and has access to Fighting-type coverage, priority, and SD. In other words, on paper this thing looks way too overwhelming for PU. CB Dodrio looks pretty hilarious, practically nothing can come in on CB Brave Bird due to a combination of Flying resists being scarce and Brave Bird being so strong that relatively frail resists like Rotom-F and Eelektross can't take 2 of these in a row either way (Eel needs to get chipped before it gets 2HKO'd but that's the easiest thing to do ever). Meanwhile, SD has the luxury to run Flyinium (or Fightinium to lure Regi etc), mitigating Dodrio's greatest flaw which is its durabiliy (SR + BB recoil takes its toll very quickly). Frailty and a relative lack of interesting resists make it difficult to set up, but its offensive power before an SD is great enough to force your opponent to switch most of the time, especially considering your opponent might think you're CB. I don't really see how the meta deals with an offensive monster like this other than by running one of Regirock, Carracosta, or Mawile (or Carbink lol) on every team. Would be surprised to see this thing stay, although I'm not making any conclusive judgments about its brokenness until I've seen it in practice.

: Aromatisse has a lot to offer defensively, considering it fulfills the cleric role better than Audino does thanks to greater defensive utility (aka it has actual noteworthy resists) and is a good alternative to Clefairy since it doesn't fear Knock Off nearly as much. Clef still has plenty going for itself thanks to immediate recovery, Stealth Rock, and other utility moves Aromatisse doesn't get, but on teams that already have a rocker but do want the defensive utility of a Fairy-type, especially the bulkier ones, Aroma seems like a great alternative. Considering the meta might become a lot more geared towards fast offense, stall might also see an uptick in usage and Aromatisse certainly has a lot to offer for that kind of team.

OTR Aromatisse looks even more potent though, especially if Ferroseed does end up leaving. Moonblast/Twnkle Tackle + HP Ground hits nearly everything hard and Aroma's bulk and resists give it plenty of setup opportunity on common threats such as Gurdurr, Primeape locked into CC, and Spiritomb. Some things like Aggron, Haunter, and Togedemaru seem like decent offensive switchins, but if it goes for TR first instead of NP all of these fear either Twinkle Tackle or HP Ground (Haunter is frail enough to get OHKO'd by unboosted TT after SR btw). Meanwhile, things that initially may sound like decent defensive checks like Weezing cannot take it on, since +2 Twinkle Tackle blows Weezing away unless it runs some max SpD shit and it only does around 50% with Sludge Bomb. Knowing how much trouble Cofagrigus caused in NU with a similar set with less raw power, I wouldn't be surprised if Aromatisse suffers the same fate Cofagrigus did in NU and ends up getting banned.

: Yet another Pokemon that can fulfill two roles, Omastar's looking like yet another potential new toy that could be overwhelming. Even though PU is getting several potential new Spikes leads and Omastar doesn't seem immediately appealing due to its disappointing speed, its ability to run SR + Spikes on one set and its ability to be offensively threatening with STAB + coverage or STAB + Shell Smash at the same time distinguishes itself enough.

The real terror lies in dedicated SS sweepers sets though, basically functioning as an upgraded Gorebyss in every regard: better Speed, more bulk, more power, more resists, greater movepool. Hydro Pump + Ice Beam is already nigh impossible to tank after an SS for most things, and with Waterium Z even the sturdiest special walls and AV tanks are blown back. What's especially disgusting though is that two of its potential checks in Gastrodon and Ferroseed are likely to move up, meaning it can forego HP Grass/HP Fire for Earth Power to screw over Qwilfish and Lanturn after some chip, Wring Out to take Jynx out, or even Substitute to dodge Sucker Punch. The primary ways to deal with this thing will be to either prevent it from setting up altogether, bait its Z-move, or just revenge kill with a fast Scarfer or Mach Punch. Any Scarfers slower than Lilligant will probably be a liability in a meta with Omastar. With all that said, even though Ferro and Gastro leaving would make it extra scary, having Jellicent can mitigate this and keep Omastar at bay to some degree.

This is without even going into its potency on Rain teams. How viable these will be is yet to be seen in a meta with Aurorus and Abomasnow, but any team lacking those probably won't like going up against this.

: Defensive Mesprit 2.0, the ultimate utility mon. Whether you use Uxie for weather, dual screens, Trick Room, or just for SR, its bulk and Speed (being faster than Qwilfish is really neat especially) basically guarantees it's going to be doing its job. It lacks Healing Wish, but those who miss that can always opt for Z-Memento. Personally I'm more interested in the combination of Yawn + U-Turn though, as it allows it to threaten hazard removal with sleep while also allowing it to grab momentum with the greatest ease. It's an ideal defensive pivot for offensive teams, basically, and it'll be extremely dominant in a more offensively inclined meta.

: Simply a solid offensive addition to the tier. Accelgor's incredible Speed (enough to run Modest without losing out on much afaik) and its respectable SpA combined with decent coverage make it a menace to face for offensive teams and it can viably run all of Specs, LO, and Z-move, but it can't run everything it wants to. Bug Buzz and FB are a given, after that you want Sludge Bomb for Fairies, HP Ice for Flying types, Energy Ball for Jellicent, or Encore or Spikes for added utility. It also can't viably beat a few mons like Hitmonchan and Weezing irregardless of the moves it's running. A hazard lead set could work, but considering Froslass and Omastar exist it's probably better off going for a more offensive set.

: Froslass sounds scary when you think back to last when it had to be banned from RU. Nonetheless, even though it's one of the best dedicated Spikes suicide leads, I do think Froslass HO would be fine down here. This is mostly due to the fact that you need an SR setter alongside Froslass and most of these cannot reliably prevent a Defogger like Skuntank, Swanna, or Silvally from doing its job. You'd probably have to run Sash Lycanroc alongside it (which you really don't have room for lol) or just play really carefully when facing a fast Defogger. Honestly, Omastar may outclass Froslass just because it can compress these roles, Froslass teams would most likely be way more matchup dependent.

: The best defensive defogger in the tier will most likely come back, but the question is whether its niche survives in a more fast-paced metagame. Ferroseed potentially being gone is both a blessing and a curse, since on one hand you don't have to run Flamethrower anymore and can run Dragon Pulse instead (or EQ for Qwilfish, Probopass, Aggron etc), but on the other hand, one of its major advantages was its ability to beat Ferroseed 1v1. As an ex-Magmortar switchin, it also lose the niche of being able to do that. Clefairy is currently extremely dominant in the tier and Altaria struggles to do anything against that, so I wonder how Altaria holds up. If nothing else, its set of resistances may still come in handy.

A few Pokemon that I think are gonna be (even) more interesting post-shift:

: Hitmonchan seems like an excellent fit in the new meta. With Qwilfish around, balance and bulky offense teams are most likely going to be more focused on stacking hazards and Hitmonchan fits very well on that kind of team. Its Mach Punch is also appreciated in a more offensive meta. One change I definitely see happening is that Ice Punch gets replaced with Thunder Punch, since it hits all Ice Punch targets (bar Altaria) and more, most importantly Jellicent and Qwilfish which otherwise invalidate it entirely.

: Lycanroc looks to be in a very interesting position in the new meta. Assuming Ferroseed and Gastrodon leave, that's two of its biggest defensive answers out of the picture, and the new slew of Fighting checks gives it interesting partner options. If Aromatisse stays (big if), LO SD Lycanroc can force Scarf Primeape/Gurdurr to kill it, giving Aromatisse the opportunity to set up for free. Being an offensive Dodrio answer is also neat, although once again the question is if Dodrio will stay. Furthermore, maybe CB will become a more interesting option now that some of the sturdiest Rock resists are leaving. Finally, its SR lead set could be more potent in a more offensive meta, especially since it outspeeds and Taunts all other hazard leads except Accelgor.

: I feel like Mudsdale is gonna get bigger if we lose both Gastrodon and Ferroseed. Since we keep losing Rock resists, CB Aggron and the aforementioned Lycanroc keep getting more difficult to switch into. Mudsdale is a very solid check to both of these threats and basically has no direct competition as a bulky Ground type.
 

UberSkitty

Assist Skitty was banned from NatDex Ubers
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Welp, despite the fact that everyone is making speculation posts in here, and the meta might change greatly in the upcoming weeks, I thought I'd make a post on the current meta. And then maybe some speculation stuff cuz why not.

Let me get this out of the way first, it's definitely doing better than when Archeops and Magmortar were here. That being said, I do still find there to be a slightly overwhelming amount threats currently. And just like before, this leads teambuilding to be fairly limiting. So, what are these threats? Well, I'm glad you didn't ask. Quick summary time! I have a problem.

Kingler: This crab is a perfect example of a mon that if let in safely, and you lack proper prep for it, it just picks up a KO with its STAB Life Orb Sheer Force boosted Liquidation. And if you lack a switch in, you're often forced to sack off a mon in hopes you can revenge kill it. But if that wasn't enough, it comes with coverage in Superpower, utility in Knock Off, and various setup options with Agility, Swords Dance, and Substitute. Some good switchins include Tangela, Gastrodon, Poliwrath, and Alolan Exeggutor.

Aurorus: While I've found people to be worrying less and less about this mon, it still serves a large threat. It's another mon that can potentially just come in and pick up KOes with its STAB Choice Specs Blizzard. While it can be played around with certain resistances due to being locked into a single move, that isn't a particularly reliable way of dealing with it when teambuilding, especially with its coverage in Freeze-Dry and Earth Power. It can also be run as a Choice Scarf user or Lead, but its Choice Specs set is by far the most threatening. Switchins include Hitmonchan, Munchlax, Lanturn, and Clefairy (more or less).

Pyroar: This is the most versatile of these four, making it all the harder to check in one mon. It can spam one of its two great STAB options with its Choice Specs set, Nuke stuff while Taunting things like Clefairy with its Z-move set, or serve as one of the fastest Choice Scarf users with its, well, Choice Scarf set. It can also play around with Z-Solar Beam or Z-Sunny Day to make it further unpredictable and harder to completely counter. Although they can vary depending on the set, some pretty consistent switchins are Regirock, Lanturn, Poliwrath, and Hitmonchan.

Lilligant: Unlike the previous three, this isn't just a wallbreaker that just comes in and OHKOes everything. However, it can sweep teams thanks to Quiver Dance while being somewhat hard to defensively check thanks to its its coverage options between Hidden Power Fire and Hyper Beam. Therefore, Speed control is all the more important, but even then it can be difficult if your Choice Scarf mon is something like Mesprit, which is outsped by +1 Lilligant. Or it can Z-Sleep Powder, making it harder for pretty much all Choice Scarfer mons. Varying based on the coverage option, checks include Skuntank, Ferroseed, Alolan Exeggutor, and Oricorio-Sensu (who does pretty much counter either way).

So, what was the point of this? Well, since you didn't ask so politely, this shows how threatening these mons can all be if you don't properly prepare. Furthermore, their checks vary a lot between the different mons, especially with some having various set options. This means that you end up having to carry two or three mons just to check those mons alone. And that's not even including other vital resistances on teams such as Fighting (which I often need multiple of) and Normal. And that's still not including necessities on pretty much every team like Stealth Rock, hazard control, and Speed control. There are some mons that can do multiple of these things, but I'm kinda tired of having to stick Hitmonchan on all of my teams. Its just overall hard to fit all this onto six mons, to the point where I find myself just accepting the fact that my team loses to Kingler.

These were just my thoughts, I'm not saying we should do a suspect or anything, especially since that tier shift is coming up, although I wouldn't be against one in the future depending on how the meta develops. But speaking of that next tier shift, I have pretty mixed feelings about it overall. A couple of the drops from NU would be pretty great for the meta, even helping against some of those previously mentioned threats, but then there's those couple which would just dominate the current meta. So NU could pretty much either help us or just screw us over. And then there's also the mons that are leaving.

Qwilfish and Altaria: We lost these two a couple shifts ago, and both have some pretty good matchup against those four big threats. Qwilfish would help a lot with the Kingler overpopulation, while Spikes and Toxic Spikes would also be really useful. It also offers Intimidate alongside being simply a great Fighting resist. Altaria checks Kingler, Pyroar, and Lilligant, assuming they aren't running coverage like Ice Beam or Hidden Power Ice, but even then it would give them a worse matchup against other checks. It also gives a nice bulky Defog user, and maybe even some Dragon Dance shenanigans, who knows.

Accelgor and Dodrio: These two just look broken. Accelgor can run some Choice Specs set, with great coverage between Bug Buzz, Focus Miss, and Sludge Bomb. If it doesn't feel like going Choice Specs, it has a bunch of utility and stuff with moves like Spikes, Encore, U-turn, Knock Off, and Acid Spray. Also there's that Speed, which, if you haven't heard, creeps Modest Choice Scarf Mesprit. Dodrio similarly is seemingly near impossible to wall between Return, Brave Bird, and Jump Kick. It has a good amount of versatility too, between its Swords Dance, Choice Band, and Choice Scarf options. That being said, it does suffer from 4mss, wanting to fit Quick Attack, Knock Off, Pursuit, (and Swords Dance if that's the set its running) on top the three previously mentioned moves. Its also fairly easy to weaken through things like Stealth Rock and Brave Bird recoil, but even then will at least dent a lot of teams. Even if these two don't end up being as broken as them appear to be on paper, they'd still add to that limit in teambuilding, so I could see them leaving either way.

Omastar and Jellicent: These two I'm kinda iffy on. Omastar has access to Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes, which could be fun, but its Shell Smash set could be a little overwhelming with its great Defense and Special Attack alongside nice coverage. We can already deal with Carracosta and Gorebyss just fine though, so it could be ok. Its weakness to Mach Punch could also be exploited. Jellicent's STABs are pretty much unresisted, with great coverage and Trick for the things that it does struggle against, so a Choice Specs set could prove to be a threat. However this is downgraded with its low Speed, although its bulk is nice and leads to its other potential set, as a wall. As a wall, it would help against threats like Kingler and Pyroar, especially with access to Recover and Will-O-Wisp.

Uxie and Froslass: These are just two decent mons. Uxie would probably replace Mesprit in its Defensive Stealth Rock set and stuff like that, and maybe serve as a bulkier Calm Mind user. Froslass, that's right, a fourth Spikes user, could be a cool lead, with some nice utility options in Taunt, Destiny Bond, Thunder Wave, and Will-O-Wisp. I could even see it running a fun Choice Specs set, as although it has a mediocre Special Attack, it has a great natural Speed, nice STAB coverage, and access to both Trick and Switcheroo (yay diversity).

Ferroseed, Stoutland, Gastrodon, Ninetales, and Sandslash: Leaving the potential drops, these are the mons leaving the tier. Ferroseed is the big one, if its S-Rank on the viability rankings doesn't show that enough. While we may have all those new Spikers to make up for its loss, it's still gonna be noticeable, as it serves as a good switchin for so many mons. It's not gonna help that it's the main reason Lilligant has to run Hidden Power Fire either. Just like in BW and ORAS PU, Stoutland is currently an amazing wallbreaker. A lot of people won't completely mind it leaving, since it could often be a pain to deal with. But on the other hand, it was my first analysis ;-;. Gastrodon is just a nice switchin to plenty of mons, Kingler included, so it will kinda suck to have it leave. I'm not as sure about if the last two will rise, but good for them if they do, since they don't have too much of an impact in PU's current meta.

I probably missed a couple speculation mons, but I'm half asleep, so oh well. That also justifies anything I said that's wrong. But overall, I do currently find these threats to be a little to overwhelming in teambuilding, and it could go either way with the tier shift. Unless NU just destroys our dreams and gives us nothing.
 
Last edited:
Gains:

Qwilfish moved from NU to PU
Altaria moved from NU to PU
Aromatisse moved from NU to PU
Omastar moved from NU to PU
Froslass moved from NU to PU
Accelgor moved from NU to PU
Uxie moved from NU to PU
Vivillon moved from NU to PU

Losses:

Gallade moved from PU to NU
Gastrodon moved from PU to OU
Venusaur moved from PU to NU
Sandslash moved from PU to NU
Stoutland moved from PU to NU
Ferroseed moved from PU to NU
 
A lot of the stuff that moved up were just BL mons but the system for that isn't fully functional yet so they're labeled as PU. Losing Ferroseed and Gastro will be a huge downer for bulkier teams that used them to check certain threats. We thankfully have checks to what mon benefits from this most, Kingler, in the newly dropped Qwilfish and Altaria. (And Accelgor can revenge kill it with Energy Ball or something but I doubt that mon will stay for too long here)

As for what we got, rather expected I must say. I could see Omastar, Aromatisse, and Accelgor being too much for the tier, but the rest will be fine. (Plus like Darkinium said Vivillon got banned already so we don't have to deal with that)
 

BlueFins

formerly xxTheBlueGalladexx
Honestly i'd hold off on major discussion for now as the usage stats do not account for June as seen here. However I don't see much changing from the list. But we'll see when we get confirmation soon.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top