Metagame np: USM PU Stage 3: Recovery [Magmortar Suspect Test]

galbia

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#1

In a quiet tier shift we just lost Miltank and Palossand to get Samurott and Typhlosion back. Too bad they just found place on the banlist.



So we have decided to have a quick suspect test, Magmortar being the subject. As soon as we lost Altaria, an already big threat to balanced and in general slower teams got even stronger and the PU Council deemed it strong enough to deserve suspect test. I won't be too long with reasoning since some people (read there and a few posts down for examples) already did so but the flexibility it has in deciding which item to run without hindering its power that much (Taunt+Crystals and Choice Specs being the main examples) is what made us decide to suspect it first. The viable counterplay it has is really limited to Carbink and Lanturn which aren't particularly good at anything else or reliable at all and this sets it apart from other things like Aurorus that tend to be at least soft checked by the so called "everything resists" (Clefairy and Type:null) or Pyroar that lacks the incredible coverage.

The reqs will be a GXE requirement of 80 with a minimum game requirement of 35 (just like last time). There will also be suspect tours.

This suspect test will last 10 days (until Sunday April 22nd at midnight EST) .

tagging The Immortal thank you so much
 
#2
I'm admittedly only beginning to get an understanding of the PU metagame, but I have quite a few reservations. After laddering for a good amount of time, I've quickly drawn the conclusion that Magmortar is definitely too much for the metagame to handle. The points I'll make may overlap with some of the points already made, but these are just my two cents on this suspect test.

Lack of switch-ins
Most teams rely on offensive checks in order to stop Magmortar, since its incredible attacking stats and amazing coverage are almost impossible to wall by most defensive threats. Even common defensive answers to Magmortar like Lanturn can get lured by its other coverage moves like Earthquake, further implying its insane coverage. Other defensive "answers" to it simply lack the power to break past it (Clefairy, Carbink without Stone Edge) or get Taunted. Magmortar has all the tools to deal with defensive Pokemon and usually has the sufficient bulk to even take on several offensive Pokemon, especially with its Assault Vest set. Magmortar's versatility only contributes to this problem, and leads me to my next point.

Magmortar is versatile
While this is obviously not a sufficient reason to warrant a Pokemon's ban, it only amplifies its other problems and in this case does contribute to how broken it is. You can make this case for a Pokemon like Mesprit, but the difference is that Mesprit doesn't have any other aspects that contribute to it being "broken." Magmortar's lack of an universal switch-in can fully be accredited to this. For example, a Pokemon like Lanturn always fears the possibility of Earthquake before coming in, even if Mag doesn't actually carry it. Even far less common options like Flame Charge are to be kept in mind when trying to check it offensively. Its ability to pick its coverage to deal with almost any defensive Pokemon, ability to run a multitude of different sets, and sheer attacking power all contribute to the metagame's current problem.

Magmortar invalidates certain teams
The pressure Magmortar puts on teams serves to invalidate certain matchups where Magmortar is present. While I understand the same can be said of a few other Pokemon (Pyroar, Kingler, Archeops) I feel like Magmortar is the biggest aggressor here. I'm sure the council feels this way too by the fact that it's the first one of these to get suspect tested. What I'm getting at here is that the metagame will overall benefit from Magmortar's ban and will introduce more versatility in teambuilding. The metagame won't be perfect, but it will certainly contribute towards it.

Take this opinion with a grain of salt, as mine isn't the most educated. These are just my thoughts after laddering for a while and facing some PU players with it. Personally I will be voting to ban Magmortar and hopefully this sways some of you to do the same.
 

allstarapology

life will change.
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#3
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ssimian-is-banned.3625646/page-2#post-7744081 - still sums up how i feel about the suspect, though a point i didn't touch on is how magmortar can force the use of certain pokemon in order to not auto-lose to it. for example, magmortar's presence is a major part of why carbink sees as much usage as it does and the reason other niche stuff like sliggoo is even being considered, as they are among the very few pokemon that can check it without being completely screwed over by taunt. but the issue with these pokemon is their relative passivity, as they easily allow other threatening wallbreakers like kingler and aurorus to switch in and take advantage of them.
 
#4
Unlike his brother, Electivire, Magmortar needs a buff in a few stats these being defenses or hp for being able to send to NU and it doesn't oppose a big threat after sending it NU isn't much needed since it might eventually get back to either PU or BL4.
 
#5
Unlike his brother, Electivire, Magmortar needs a buff in a few stats these being defenses or hp for being able to send to NU and it doesn't oppose a big threat after sending it NU isn't much needed since it might eventually get back to either PU or BL4.
If Magmortar is banned it will go to BL4, not NU. Also, base stats aren't a good way to judge a pokemon as a whole since in Magmortar's case it is getting suspected due to the tiers inability to switch into it well meaning its defense stats don't matter too much.
 
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#6
Unlike his brother, Electivire, Magmortar needs a buff in a few stats these being defenses or hp for being able to send to NU and it doesn't oppose a big threat after sending it NU isn't much needed since it might eventually get back to either PU or BL4.
This post doesn't make any sense. Magmortar has the exact same defenses as Electivire, except SpD, which is higher (not that that matters anyway since both are primarily offensive mons). Also, you don't ban a mon to a higher tier, you ban it to a ban list, this case being BL4. And actually, Magmortar is pretty decent in NU anyway, no that that matters for PU's decision of banning it.
 
#7
Since alot of stuff already being said here i still wanna give my thoughts on Magmortar:
Magmortar is a powerful special attacker, which has lacks of switchins, things as AV Lanturn are one of the switchins (the very few ones) i can think of. Being able to run alot of things like AV, Scarf, Specs, Z-Move with Taunt makes Magmortar an incredible versatile mon in the PU tier and even w/o scarf it is able to outspeed a decent amount of the PU tier. it is able to even pressure mons like Gastrodon with a powerful HP Grass so Mag doesnt autolose to it or catch it rather hard with HP grass a Gastro via switchin.

Unlike his brother, Electivire, Magmortar needs a buff in a few stats these being defenses or hp for being able to send to NU and it doesn't oppose a big threat after sending it NU isn't much needed since it might eventually get back to either PU or BL4.
it is not based on the stats alone. The all around things it can do lead the PU council towards a suspect of this mon. Mag can do a hell of a bunch.

With that being said: Ban Magmortar
 
#8
mags influence on the tier has forced fatter teams into running shit like sliggoo just to have a switch in. slow teams p much instantly lose to the all-out-pummeling set (arguably the best one) as common blanket check mons like clef or null lose to taunt or z focus blast. not even its main checks in lanturn and carbink want to switch into it directly as they both fear the possible coverage move (eq, hp steel) while also lacking recovery and as such are easily chipped down by residual damage allowing mag to pick both of them off when weakened. not much else to say here that hasnt been said already, but tldr its immense power combined with a lack of reliable switchins, and the versatility in its moveset are the main reasons why i believe magmortar should be banned.
 
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#9
I feel like Magmortar in the current meta has warped the tier. It's an extremely strong wallbreaker which also has decent speed, making it very difficult for balance teams to be able to check it offensively without losing momentum. Pokemon like Sliggoo, as previously mentioned in the thread, are extremely niche and serve almost no purpose in a match-up without a Magmortar. Due to recent "techs," magmortar has become even more difficult to handle, as previously it would often be beaten by Clef or Type: Null, it can now handle these pokemon with either it's specs set hitting them for large amounts of their health, or being able to taunt them, forcing them to switch-out to avoid losing to mag. It's extremely versatile, one set's checks aren't always the same, and even some "checks" can be beaten with entry hazards and chip damage making it impossible for them to switch-in to check Mag. It has quite a few sets, AV, Scarf, Specs, Taunt Z-move/LO, hell there are even some physical magmortar sets, although they're often bad and very niche. This makes it impossible for someone to be able to scout for what set Magmortar is and not lose momentum going into a "check" for it. It's incredibly hard to check on offense, even having decent speed to outspeed some threats that may try to switch in, such as AV hitmonchan. It also contributes to the extreme centralization of offense in the current meta. Pokemon like Kingler and Jynx are incredibly good right now, as they can easily clean up teams after Magmortar has broken down some walls. Magmortar contributes by having no real switch-ins, being difficult to check offensively, and being able to grab momentum off of it's very niche counters or checks. All in all, I think the fact that it has so few ways to be dealt with and even when dealt with, it leaves you wide open to other threats. Magmortar should be banned.
 
#10
My feeling about magmortar.....

Many magmortar counters exist but they all are suboptimal choices (no exception)
I find the metagame quite weird right now because it is full of semi-broken mons weak to stealth rock (all the suspect worthy lol). Magmortar is quite overwhelming right now, but banning it might not solve the problem. Tbh I'm more confortable facing magmortar than aurorus, which is actually as threatening or even more. It's not that hard to find some underrated mon able to check mortar (sligoo, solrock, carbink, hakamoO, silvally dragon spdef...) while aurorus has literally no answer except clefairy if not highrolls. But thats the problem, clefairy is quite a splashable mon, perfectly viable in balance/bulky offense, while all the things able to check mortar are definitely bad, or not worth the opportunity cost. The rise of sligoos and other poor mons is interesting because they are given a chance to shine, but it clearly warns us of mortar's brokenness. Regularly using poor mons to check a toptier or playing aggresively/sacking systematically always means the pokemon is too strong for the tier.

Not hard to check but checking it comes at a high cost
I think that we shouldn't be fooled by magmortar's apparent low staying power, because it can usually lead vs stuff like mesprit and force them to tank a fireblast, so u might think magmortar is gonna lose its momentum but it actually just heavily hurt your counter to fighting types for exemple so you are the one in the bad position. Also "being weak to rocks" isn't an argument, its neither a butterfree nor a scarf pyroar: it will take rock damage, sure, but will just oneshot something, and repeat it later on. Hitmonchan is the most viable answer to mag and barely avoids the 2hko from non specs modest. Whether is uses taunt or not i don't care, it still is impossible to wall or switch into (specs is criticized but is actually legit to deal an insane amount of damage to whatever switches into it, even with a typing resisting fire).
Sending hitmonchan on magmortar for instance just means that you have lost like 45% on it and then your oppo goes mesprit and uturns into mortar again. In the case of pyroar you can just keep a 2% hitmonchan and threaten with machpunch, but magmortar is bulkier allowing it to get extra hits. Also the firepower is quite different between those two mons.

Invalidates balance and stall (without carbink lol)
Having a pokemon able to reliably stallbreak and quite splashable like mortar is nice because using crabominable/ursaring to have a good mu vs stall isn't excatly my cup of tea. But it also roasts balance teams (s/o weezing, ferroseed, clefable, lanturn, regirock) on its own with the Z- fight set able to dismantle the cores without any effort. Balance is one of the most fundamental playstyles in pokemon and happens to thrive in balanced metagames. Balance has the aspect of stall in its ability to wall a certain portion of the metagame, while being unable to handle many threats in the long run but this is fixed by its offensive core which keeps momentum up and pressures the opponent while being able to handle threats by virtue of their typing/bulk (AV chan, aggron..). But with mortar in PU, balance becomes unable to handle one single mon from turn1 and is forced to make hyper aggressive plays; I also saw many people who decided not to set up rocks and uturn with mesprit vs the incoming mortar/ leech seed with ferroseed instead of spikes+going to clefa/gastrodon/double switches+leech chip damage throughout the game to avoid losing a pokemon which is quite ridiculous. If you can't even get rocks up because it comes at the cost of losing one mon then you can't play balance anymore.

And finally if you think aurorus is more broken, or kingler or whatever, I will just say that there are too many hardhitters in this tier and that one should leave. Otherwise see you in May's meta full of sligoo+mortar cores!
EDIT: I wouldn't have got the reqs without the use of bulletproof HakamoO resttalk+floatzel in my offense and archeops+clefairy in my balance. I let you ponder over this...
 
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#11
Since alot of stuff already being said here i still wanna give my thoughts on Magmortar:
Magmortar is a powerful special attacker, which has lacks of switchins, things as AV Lanturn are one of the switchins (the very few ones) i can think of. Being able to run alot of things like AV, Scarf, Specs, Z-Move with Taunt makes Magmortar an incredible versatile mon in the PU tier and even w/o scarf it is able to outspeed a decent amount of the PU tier. it is able to even pressure mons like Gastrodon with a powerful HP Grass so Mag doesnt autolose to it or catch it rather hard with HP grass a Gastro via switchin.


it is not based on the stats alone. The all around things it can do lead the PU council towards a suspect of this mon. Mag can do a hell of a bunch.

With that being said: Ban Magmortar
Thanks for mentioning but I tried to tell if magmortar is going to BL4 eventually there should be suspect on Electivire too which would be way too much work plus banning two pretty solid mons would change the META completely I know I wasn't very clear sorry.
 
#12
Thanks for mentioning but I tried to tell if magmortar is going to BL4 eventually there should be suspect on Electivire too which would be way too much work plus banning two pretty solid mons would change the META completely I know I wasn't very clear sorry.
Electivire is unviable to the point of it being unranked. I don’t know what you mean by Electivire being a solid mon, but the clear lack of checks to Magmortar is the reason for its suspect, regardless of how much the metagame would change as long as it’s for the favor of the metagame. (The loss of Magmortar isn’t necessarily gonna change too much other than free restrictive team building.)
 
#14
I'm going to keep this post short and concise. After pushing myself to get requirements, I firmly, without a shadow of a doubt, believe that Magmortar is broken and unhealthy for the tier. Even though I didn't play as many on the ladder as I would've liked too, when I did it was such a massive threat even though I had several checks to it on my team. I think something to note is that I also saw, with higher ranked players, the effect it has on building and how restrictive it is. Teams are no longer able to rely on Pokemon like Clefairy to check Magmortar as the Taunt set just tears through them, so blanket checks were seen in abundance when I was laddering, namely Hitmonchan. This is not okay and clearly shows how stupidly unhealthy Magmortar is on the tier.

With Magmortar being both restrictive on teambuilding and extremely hard to defensively check, I am definitely on the side of ban.
 
#15
I usually hate bans, and mag used to be one of my favorite mons when I’d play PU from time to time. However, seeing people have to run garbage like HakamoO and sligoo just to stand a chance is ridiculous. I was looking for a reason not to ban this and I just can’t. This thing has no reliable switch-ins, hits like a monster truck with Z move and specs sets, can have a workable matchup against offense teams with scarf, and is generally unhealthy for the meta. Not to mention that just saying “ITs RoCkS WEaK” isn’t an argument when the tier is chock full of viable spinners and foggers. In short, if I do manage to get reqs, I will vote BAN on this mortar
 
#16
I don't have the GXE to back up my vote, sadly, but I have had enough experience with the PU metagame and I've seen how Magmortar shapes up the meta. Whenever I face up against it, it's usually a 50/50 chance to get rid of it without major damage, and the favoring 50 comes from the fact that I'm low on the ladder, so many people don't take full advantage of its brokenness. (I just can't git gud)

There's no reliable counters for it outside of really, really niche pokemon that have been mentioned above. If you don't count with them, checking Mag comes at a heavy price considering how there's no reliable switch-in for it. Unless it got affected by Sticky Web or Paralysis (which is getting very lucky since there's plethora of Defoggers/clerics in the meta), whatever you send to check it will surely get OHKOed or severly crippled due to the thing being so versatile that it'll undoubtedly will have a move specially tailored to whatever poor mon you choose to knock it out.

Having to waste a slot on your team just to counter a specific mon is ridiculous and it's a definite sign that Magmortar is changing the meta in an unhealthy way. I'm all for wallbreakers, but they by no means should be unable to be countered by other offensive mons. I can't vote on it personally, but I'd suggest Magmortar gets banned. PU is all about being able to use the mons we love that aren't normally viable, basically, it's all about the diversity that is often stunted by the competitive scene. Mag's prescence puts needless pressure on the meta.
 

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