Metagame np: USUM PU Stage 4.5- Spikes [October shift post 50]

#51
Haven't done a post about tier shifts in a while and I have some time this morning so.
Ninetales leaving isn't really too big. Sure, since Pyroar left, we were looking for another good Fire-type, but Ninetales definitely wasn't the replacement. It wasn't really viable anyway, so I doubt this'll make much change.
dundies_stall.gif. But really, I can see this being a cool new member of bulky teams since Pyukumuku has been falling off in usage (it also dropped to ZU in this shift). Quag has a better offensive presence than Pyuku meaning it's not complete Taunt bait and can still hurt things with EQ and threaten burns with Scald. There are still some setup sweepers that it obviously won't be able to beat like Lilligant, and it also has trouble with a lot of Pokemon like Aurorus, Taunt Sensu, etc. but overall I think checking some bigger physical threats will be an okay role for this.
Dodrio is an old friend of PU from ORAS and it's finally returned with a couple new tricks. Now with an extra 10 points in Speed, Jump Kick, AND Swords Dance, this thing is a threat. I'm always bad at predicting if mons will be too good when they drop here but I think it's needless to say that this thing is super strong. Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and SD+Z move are all viable sets and each one has different ways of getting around it. Personally, as much as I would love to have Dodrio, I can't see it not getting quickbanned.
Fun fact: all three of our new drops have gender differences. Jellicent seems like a really cool addition. Defensive sets check a ton and someone even said that with this thing dropping, it might be worth retesting Samurott but that's a little more speculation than I'd like to get into. Offensive sets also seem really cool to me personally as Specs Water Spout has very few switch ins and the ones that can come in get bopped by Specs Shadow Ball or Energy Ball. Can even work on Trick Room teams as another setter and abuser.
This thing was already gone from us, but now there's not a chance of retesting in the foreseeable future so
 

allstarapology

feels like summer
is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
#52
Now that the shifts have been confirmed and I have some free time, time to give my thoughts and feelings... again.


I wrote this off as just broken and moved on in my previous post, but because this became shorter due to Houndoom not actually dropping, I'll talk a bit more about it. Swords Dance sets seem absolutely ridiculous to deal with when one considers Dodrio's high Speed, naturally decent Attack, high-powered STAB moves, Z-Moves further bolstering its breaking abilities, and Jump Kick giving it unresisted coverage, with revenge killing and offensive pressure seeming like two of, if not, the only effective means of dealing with it. Although they won't be as lethal, Choiced sets are perfectly usable too. Choice Band allows Dodrio to become immediately powerful and make better of Quick Attack, which also improves its matchup against certain revenge killers like Primeape, while Choice Scarf turns it into a solid cleaner that can also take out threats like +1 Lilligant and Jynx. The reason they're not as threatening is that they prevent Dodrio from switching moves, which makes it easier to exploit, though they're still sets to be on the lookout for. Most Flying checks will struggle to deal with it more than likely, and all playstyles seem to be bothered by it to varying levels.


With Quagsire dropping, we have another great check to the broken Rock-types known as Aggron and Lycanroc. Because it's less passive than Pyukumuku, it can fit decently well on balance on top of naturally fitting on stall. Toxic Spikes being less common on account of Weezing's slight decline in usage is helpful, though all the residual damage going around may be harmful. Not much set development or whatever, still the same old Quagsire.


The drop we've all been waiting for, Jellicent seems like it'll be really annoying for slower teams. It outspeeds a lot of defensive Pokemon, shuts them down with two of Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, and Hex, boasts reliable recovery, and has useful resistances and immunities to boot, notably being a good stop to Fighting-types, checking Alolan Sandslash, and serving as a bulky spinblocker. Offensive sets also seem pretty good because of its weirdly good STAB combination, the sheer power of Water Spout, and certain specially bulky Pokemon like Lanturn, Audino, and Clefairy either being worn down through entry hazards or declining in popularity. Trading a lot of the defensive utility for offensive presence doesn't seem 100% worth it in most cases, though it is worth considering. The presence of super strong breakers like Aggron hurts it slightly, but it's not that big of an issue imo.

In conclusion, I'm looking forward to what these drops (the two that are staying) have to offer!
 
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JustoonSmitts

formerly ArtistSmeargle1991
#55

Ostres is definitely warranting of a suspect (maybe even quickban). Naturally good Speed and Attack mixed with near-perfect coverage and Swords Dance make Dodrio very hard to deal with in PU. Z-Move Dodrio is going to punch holes in teams. Not even Rocks and Steels stop it because it has Jump Kick and Stomping Tantrum to deal with Aggron and Regirock. Quick Attack on a Banded set could be used to check Choice Scarfed Pokemon. Dodrio is kind of insane here.


Quagsire dropping to PU is pretty cool. It could make a decent Gastrodon replacement with Water Absorb variants, though Unaware is so much better. It's much less passive than Pyukumuku, so it'll find a place on teams outside of stall. It still has to deal with residual damage like it always has, but good ol' Quagsire is still good ol' Quagsire. Also I love that gif.


Jellicent is going to be pretty cool in PU. Defensive sets are pretty great. They outpace common defensive Pokemon in PU like Clefairy and Lanturn, shut them down with Taunt and Will-O-Wisp, and has reliable recovery in... Recover. Offensive Specs sets with that unique STAB combo and Water Spout are going to be good. This is going to shine down here.
 

Ktütverde

Always turning thoughts into things
is a Tiering Contributor
#56
Ok , posting some stuff many people will disagree with as usual, i made the effort to chat in the PU room before saying shit here. I don't want to look like the guy who thinks he is expert in PU and knows at first glance whats good and whats not, but PULT playoffs are going to start soon and im already expecting sick rounds if broken mons remain, so here I'm going to be the hater I use to be:


Seriously, this is like Mega-Mega-Sableye of PU. Just explain me how to break this (taunt+wow+recover+quite fast+tanks every possible move thrown at it). What else should i say.

This thing is just too good, especially in stall. Pyuku is an incredible pain atm, but quag is like a super pyuku, since its offensive presence is real (no, u wont be able to force the unaware user out with toxic togedemaru or poisonjab/sludgebomb skunk). Stall is a really potent playstyle in PU even though no one seems to agree with it except a few people who actually lost to real stall teams. Quag just means stall is going to become a lot better, aggron wont break anything at all, lycanrock wont even be able to beat a 50% HP quag, and as some people say it can block voltturn and suffer less from double switches since lefties negate the stealth rock damage due to being ground. This thing just looks like an incredibly massive pain, i would even call it unbeatable with offense (unless u have lilligant/tangela) since it has access to stockpile, curse and amnesia which, while being super gimmicky in other tiers, makes it completely unhealthy in PU. This thing could even be used as sweeper in offense, I cant imagine it remaining in PU, lets be serious man. Even if u carry a grass move, it will just wall the rest of ur team and bring the grass resist, so lets just click X.


This thing looks like the pyroar replacement we have been looking for (wont be ninetales bc it left PU :'[ ). At least it is beatable, unlike the two other fishes. Regirock spam will start again, so it probably deserves the same fate as pyroar, but still is the least broken element in this drops ig.



The simisear/ninetales dilemma is over. Rest in peace. Thanks for reading, feel free to comment!
 
#57

I really wanted Dodrio to make it in PU -- but after taking a look at the calcs for its possible checks and counters, this thing doesn't even deserve a suspect test. It is beyond broken, and unless "every single team has to run Regirock" is your idea of a healthy meta, it should be banned from the tier.

To take a look at how Dodrio could be countered, I ran calcs for the counters of its closest PU analog, Scyther. What I found was that, of the 10 mons that can be considered "guaranteed switch-ins" to Scyther, only two (Regirock and Pyukumuku) could reliably switch into Dodrio's Flyinium-Z set. That means that 8/10 of the premier flying checks and physdef mons in the tier lose 1-on-1 vs. Dodrio's most common set.

+2 252 Atk Dodrio Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Regirock: 186-220 (51 - 60.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Pyukumuku: 108-127 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- 48.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Dodrio Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 238-282 (78.5 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Dodrio Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mudsdale: 276-325 (73.7 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Dodrio Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 178-211 (50.5 - 59.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Dodrio Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Omastar: 238-282 (69.1 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Dodrio Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Qwilfish: 468-552 (140.5 - 165.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Dodrio Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 424-501 (120.1 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Dodrio Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Weezing: 375-442 (112.2 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Dodrio Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 365-430 (103.3 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
 
#58
Dodrio looks pretty unhealthy for the metagame. The norm in this meta is that wallbrakers do not have the best speed. However, Dodrio is different. having an insane speed tier. Having access to jump kick means it can do damage to otherwise potential checks. The ability to run band,scarf, or even z-moves reliably speaks volumes, and it is going to hurt regardless of what it goes in on. Switching in against it would be like play russian roulette, except you're still already half dead.
 
#59

With the drops and recent uptick of Aggron (ie: Less Weezings) I feel like SD Abomasnow is in a good place as a balance breaker. WIthout resorting to a speed boosting nature, it conveniently sits 1 point above Jolly Aggron, which means that it can outspeed and rek (80-95%) with EQ. Despite its awful defensive typing, it has the bulk to take stuff like unboosted Gurdurr's Mach Punch & Lycanroc's Accelerock, and a +2 Bloom Doom cleanly OHKOs the former. And, while its not the best vs Offense, a +2 Ice Shard does a number to Primeape and Lycanroc, so you can trade a bit vs them if they try to revenge you.

It also really likes Jellicent as a partner who conveniently resists basically all of its weaknesses.

Abomasnow @ Grassium Z
Ability: Soundproof/Snow Warning
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Shard
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
 

UberSkitty

Ok now rank Cherrim
is a Pre-Contributor
#60
Ok hi I'm posting. I guess I'm posting sets and thoughts and stuff. And, the same thing I always say on these, I formally apologize if it turns out similar to an analysis.


Thought I'd start out with this bad boy(s) not just because its broken, but it has a lotta cool sets. Also wanted to talk about Dodrio before it gets banned. Anyhow, like I said, its a pretty versatile mon. There's double dance and standard SD for wallbreaking and cleaning, but also revenge killing, Choice Band for wallbreaking and revenge killing, but also cleaning, and Choice Scarf for revenge killing and cleaning. It stats and movepool are also pretty broken, with 110 Speed and Attack, although admittedly non-existent defenses, and solid STAB with Brave Bird and Return (or Frustration) (Also Double Edge but that's incompatible with Brave Bird), coverage with Jump Kick (and Stomping Tantrum if you wanna hit Chople Berry stuff), priority in Quick Attack, and some other fun stuff like Pursuit and Knock Off. Is this putting way too much effort on a mon that's gonna be banned soon? That's for you to decide, reader! AKA yes.

Fluff Ball Birdy (Dodrio) @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Jump Kick
- Swords Dance
- Agility
Nope, not Standard SD, but I'll get to that one later. Double dance has been pretty cool, being able to choose between SD for bulkier mons and Agility for the faster mons and whatnot. It's even funner if you manage to get both up and just start bopping. It's main problem is probably 4MSS, since you have to leave out Quick Attack, leaving you all the more vulnerable to other priority users. Also it sucks having your only attacking moves consist of Jump Kick, which misses and screws you over, and Brave Bird, which chips you down, although Flyinium Z does help with that part. I also stuck Adamant on there because Agility stuff, though Jolly is still ok I guess for stuff if you don't manage to set up.

Fuzz Ball Birdy (Dodrio) @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Quick Attack
- Jump Kick
- Swords Dance
Ok now Standard SD. Unlike double dance, this set has space for Quick Attack (or Frustration for a non-recoil STAB and to hit things like Oricorio-Pom-Pom, but I prefer the priority), which makes it much harder to revenge kill with faster mons (without having to set up an Agility) and opposing priority users. Also having an offensive move other than Brave Bird and Jump Kick is nice, even if it is weak as frik. But enough comparing it to double dance, since it is considered by many to be the best set (that comparison doesn't count). And this is for good reason, since it can be pretty hard to wall once it manages to get an SD up, especially since Z-Jump Kick lets it beat things like non-Chople Berry Regirock (although I wouldn't be surprised if Chople Berry becomes more common). Unless you have something like Lycanroc or Choice Scarf Togedemaru still decently healthy, it can just clean up games. Oh yeah Alolan Persian is pretty good against this too. Good mon.

Fluff Ball Birdy (Dodrio) @ Choice Band
Ability: Early Bird
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Frustration
- Quick Attack
- Jump Kick
Ok, we're done with the SD stuff. Unless you wanna run Choice Band SD for those Knock Offs and itemless Tricks and Switcheroos. Anyway, the first thing that comes to mind with this set is Stoutland, with its Scrappy Returns and Frustrations and better bulk (but mostly the Scrappy thing). However, Dodrio has a bunch of stuff that still makes it a solid wallbreaking option, much higher Speed, secondary STAB, coverage that doesn't lower its stats although does has its own issues, and priority. Whether you're spamming Brave Bird, spamming Frustration because you don't wanna kill yourself, spamming Quick Attack to revenge kill or clean up the match, or spamming Jump Kick because you're overpredicting and hoping they don't bring out their Ghost-type, it can put in work. You can also probably stick Pursuit on there somewhere, but it seems pretty hard to find a slot for.

Fuzz Ball Birdy (Dodrio) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Early Bird
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Frustration
- Jump Kick
- Knock Off / Toxic / Pursuit / Taunt / Haze / Quick Attack / Acupressure / I dunno
And the in the caboose of these sets, there's Choice Scarf. Despite Dodrio's naturally high Speed, this is still a solid set. In fact, the Speed makes it all the better in that it can outspeed pretty much all other Choice Scarf users like Primeape and Scyther (bar some weird stuff Floatzel and things it Speed ties with like Froslass). It does the usual Choice Scarf stuff, being able to revenge kill and clean. It's main setback when compared to a lotta those other Choice Scarf users would be in its lack of a pivot move or Trick/Switcheroo, but there are other good Choice Scarf mons like Kabutops who can relate. It moveset is also pretty standard when compared to its other sets, powerful STAB in Brave Bird, less powerful STAB that doesn't also kill you in Frustration, and coverage in Jump Kick. That last slot isn't as vital compared to the other three moves, so you can just stick some crippling moves like Knock Off and Toxic, Pursuit trapping with Pursuit, other random utility like Taunt and Haze, priority in Quick Attack, or Acupressure if you wanna help out your opponent.

There are no dinosaurs in there I swear.
Next up is Jellicent. This mon is honestly good both defensively and offensively. On the defensive side, it's got a solid defensive typing, nice bulk, and a great movepool with Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, and Recover. Offensively, it has good STAB coverage, access to Trick, and an acceptable Special Attack (I'm running out of ways to say good). Even its Speed isn't too bad, with max Speed and Modest it just reaches 219 to creep Aggron. It also has some great choices for its ability with Water Absorb and Cursed Body (or Damp if you wanna stop those Galvanzive Explosions). I've heard some people say it should be banned, but for now I just see it as an overall thick and rich option in the metagame, although that may be because I'm just screaming about Dodrio being quickbanned. Only time will tell. Also Pringles joke.

Brush Me (Jellicent) (M) @ Colbur Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb / Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald / Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Recover
First off, there's the defensive set. It's a solid switchin for stuff like Primeape and Floatzel. There are other defensive mons like Sableye and Gourgeist-XL can give it some competition, but its typing is a large selling point for it, as is its high HP and defensive stats, and not being completely shut down by Dark-types because Prankster also helps. It's a pretty standard defensive mon moveset. For its attack move there's Scald to fish for burns or Hex to get that snazzy boost on statused mons, the utility stuff with Will-O-Wisp and Taunt to let you cripple stuff like Clefairy or at least stop things like Regirock from setting Stealth Rock and whatnot, and finally Recover because recovery. And then Ghost mon stuff with Colbur Berry and Leftovers. The Speed is to creep Weezing creeping Carracosta. Speed mind games are fun. It can probably run a similar specially defensive set or a mix of the two for some specific calcs, but I haven't tried either yet so oh well.

Shave Me (Jellicent) (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb / Cursed Body
Happiness: 0
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Hydro Pump
- Shadow Ball
- Trick / Ice Beam
Choice Specs STAB Water Spout. That alone can just come in and pick up a KO. It does have a couple flaws, with its somewhat lacking Speed and how easily it can get chipped through switching in or other stuff like hazards and hail. But for the Speed, as I said before, you're still creeping Aggron with just Modest, and even more if Timid. As for the chip damage thing, you've still the slightly weaker and inaccurate Hydro Pump (unless you wanna just use with Surf or Scald), or just stick a Healing Wish user or two on your team, ez. Shadow Ball is that other STAB and hits some stuff your Water-type moves can't like Jynx and Poliwrath. And if Shadow Ball can't hit them either, there's Trick to cripple things like Clefairy and Altaria. There's also Ice Beam, which also hits Altaria, as well as things that don't care about Trick like Drampa. You could probably even stick random coverage like Dazzling Gleam, Psychic, Energy Ball, or Sludge Bomb if there's some mon your team really hates.

Brush Me (Jellicent) (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Water Absorb / Cursed Body
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Hydro Pump
- Shadow Ball
- Trick / Ice Beam
Yeah, pretty much the same stuff as Choice Specs. You're gonna spam Water Spout, Hydro Pump when you're low, and then everything else for predicting stuff. Choice Scarf alongside Timid does get Jellicent to a decent Speed tier, being able to outspeed Lycanroc, although its still outsped by Alolan Persian. The Speed gives it a nice surprise factor (ladder approved), especially when the foe thinks they can get a hit off before you to weaken Water Spout. While its natural Special Attack may not be the highest, Water Spout doesn't care, its still making dents in the opposing team. It also doesn't really have much of a niche like other slower Choice Scarf users in Aurorus and Abomasnow, which both beat rain. Its biggest selling point would be in its fast Water Spout. Trick is nice too.


Quagsire, despite my love of its design, is definitely the mon out of the three drops I've used and seen the least, so a good amount of this is speculation. However, this thing is a solid physically defensive mon and helps make up for the loss Gastrodon, being able to switch into Aggron and friends, although does face a little competition form Mudsdale in that area. When you have an ability that completely invalidates Water Absorb, you know its good. Unaware just stops opposing setup mons, letting it just fire off some Toxics or use them as setup fodder for its own Curse. Its typing is great, with just one weakness (Freeze-Dry doesn't count) and a solid amount of resistances, not to mention it isn't too shabby on the offensive side either. It also gets Recover, which is always nice. Sadly Quagsire only makes stall better, but I'll still stick it on my balance teams. Also RIP Pyukumuku. Also also make Dundies stall great again.

Hi (Quagsire) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Recover
Probably the most common Quagsire set, although that may be debatable with its Curse set. Its a solid wall, and has the added benefit of being able to cripple physical things with Scald (which always gets the burn) and Toxic everything else. Even if it is pretty passive, Earthquake still does decent damage and Recover with Leftovers means you do win the 1v1 against a good amount of mons over time. And then Unaware to set setup stuff. Just a solid physical wall.

Hi (Quagsire) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Waterfall / Ice Punch
- Curse
- Recover
A lot of Quagsire's Curse sets in other tiers have Scald on them, likely since Quagsire fills more of a nichey support role if I had to guess. However, in PU its much more viable from what I've seen, so it could function as just a dedicated setup mon. So I just put Earthquake for STAB and Waterfall for more STAB or Ice Punch to hit things like Altaria. And then more Recover Leftovers healing. Thanks to Unaware, it doesn't even have to worry about PP stalling and crit fishing wars against other bulky setup mons like Clefairy and Gurdurr. So that's cool.

Hi (Quagsire) @ Choice Band
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 124 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Toxic / Yawn
This is a fun set I came up with a few weeks ago and just remembered while making this post, so I haven't gotten the chance to use it yet. Is it good? I have no idea (so probably not). The moveset is again pretty simple, double STAB with coverage and something to cripple random switchins. The Speed creeps things like Drampa trying to creep uninvested base 50's. It could probably go much slower with more HP for bulk and stuff, but I prefer the fun Speed mind games (in fact you could probably run a little more Speed to creep base 50's running 8 or 12 Speed EVs to try to creep things trying to creep them).


We lost Ninetales? Uhhh, good for Ninetales I guess. Too bad it had to go right when it was starting to rise on the VR, but least now our Fire-types have even less competition.

Overall these were some pretty cool drops, bar that broken one(s), but my biggest worry right now worry is gonna be updating analyses. Ok I'm done now. Kachiga.
 

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#61
My thoughts on the recent drops:

195-Quagsire.png
First of all Quagsire: I think this Pokémon will compete with other Unaware users like Pyukumuku in this tier.
The drop of Quagsire means, that we have a new addition as a physically defensive mon, which is able to Scald burn physical threats,
and it is also another addition against Regirock, Skunktank, Poliwrath and especially Aggron.
I can see some lure sets running around with Hidden Power [Grass] or Energy Ball, since not only he dropped, Jellicent also did.

Jellicent.png
Jelli oh Jelli, such a good addition to the tier. Being able to WoW and Scald burn opposing threats,
withstanding hits due to good bulk and berries like colbur (which I personally like alot).
It is a good check to the threatening AlolaSlash under Hail with the help of Will-o-Wisp; It also withstands it's two STAB Attacks in
Icicle Crash and Iron Head.
I think a much faster spread with taunt can also work on slower paced teams.
What I really like to adress is, that it keeps the fighting types at check, which running around in the tier like Scarf Primape, Hitmonchan and
Gurdurr. I really like this drop alot and I believe it could help the PU tier out with it's presence.

85-Dodrio.png
Dodrio on the other hand I'm on the fence wether it's broken or not.
I use it alongside Jellicent, Mesprit and Skunky and holy lord it is damn threatening to alot of mons.
On the one hand I like the offensive presence it offers: Jump Kick, Stomping Tantrum, Brave Bird, Knock Off, SD and a good Base Attack and Base Speed,
but on the other hand I think it could probably be too much for PU, sure it cannot setup infront of offensive teams, but even without an SD it can put in work.
I think Choice Scarf or Choice Band sets will also see some Usage.
 
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#62
Alright, thought I’d leave some of my thoughts on the recent drops. I’ve been hearing a lot of chatter about them in both the PU room on discord as well as PU room on SD. Dodrio seems to have been getting most of this attention. Some of this attention rather heated and heavily debated between those who were for the Quick Ban and those who were against it.

Quaqsire: I don’t have much to say about Quagsire really. Quagsire I don’t see as being an issue within the tier. I believe it fits in very nice into the tier and helps provide another defensive option for teams to run whether its balance/bulky or stall. Having Unaware is great for a defensive mon like Quagsire, it’s a solid addition. However, I believe power creep and time have caught up to it a bit. Although still a solid mon, it doesn’t quite eat up as much damage as it used to with the introduction of Z-moves. The other issue it has, although it has Unaware, one of the more popular set up sweepers is Lilligant which Quagsire isn’t going to want to be in on. Besides those issues, still a solid addition to the tier, still a solid option for team building which just slots right into the tier with little to no issue.







Jellicent: Like Quagsire I don’t have much to say about it, Jellicent fits right into PU relatively nicely. It is a effective mon in the tier while at the same time not being unbreakable. I believe once some of the excitement around Jellicent drops down and more people move away from some of the more fun sets like Spec’s. Jellicent with its bulky taunt/wisp/hex/scald/recover combination will start changing around the tier. Fighting types in general have taken a real hit with first Frosslass entering PU, now Quag and Jelli, I believe we will likely start seeing more Gurdurr’s in the fighting type slot and start seeing less Chans/Ape’s. regardless Jellicent is great addition to the tier, provides yet another bulky water option to use and thanks to its decent speed for a defensive mon can wisp/taunt physical threats and hinder a lot of good physical mon’s. It really bolsters the Balance/Bulky side of things and I could potentially see it being used on a variety of other team archetypes because of its nice utility and what it brings to the table.



Dodrio: Alright, this one I have much more to say about. I’ve seen the reaction to the decision not to quick ban it. I’ve heard the various arguments from both sides of the Ban/Don’t Ban divide. After looking at who voted which way for the Ban/Don’t Ban within the council there is a divide there as well. I believe Dodrio is the best physical threat within the tier currently. However, I believe the best course of action because of there not being a Quick Ban of Dodrio, is to take a wait and see approach, since Dodrio will be sticking around for a period, we will be able to see if the meta innovates and adapts to its arrival, or if it proves to be just too overwhelming for the tier. Personally, I’m not one to make judgement on something until I have more experience with it, have seen it used more, seen how the tier and team building reacts to something. I know some people are rather upset with the decision to not quick ban it. But honestly, sometimes the best course of action is to give something more than a day or two before making a final decision. When something new comes into a tier, teams are not going to be prepared for it as they are built around what was the current threats and not the new threat. Sometimes it is best to not have a knee jerk reaction and immediately condone something as broken or unhealthy when it has only just dropped. I agree with the decision to give Dodrio a chance within the tier, if it’s too powerful then of course it will end up being suspected and gone, if the tier proves it’s capable of handling it then it sticks around. Sometimes the best thing to do is just wait and observe. However, I understand both sides of the argument and agree that Dodrio, as of now is good and with its stab options and coverage can really break down teams even without set up. It can run Band/Scarf rather effectively as well. However it is susceptible to being worn down both by itself, rocky helmet, SR and the such. But only time will tell whether these factors are enough, whether the meta can adapt, whether Dodrio needs to go or does it stay. For now, I’m on the fence, I want to see how things go before I have a final opinion on Dodrio.
 

Ktütverde

Always turning thoughts into things
is a Tiering Contributor
#63
Hello, as a big dod enthusiast I thought I would share my two sets (haven't seen anyone using them, sorry if I'm wrong):

First set:
Offensive Utility (Knock+Roost Dod)


As far as I'm concerned this is the best set along with Banded. SD really sucks since people either use Regirock(chople!!), become desperate and stay in vs the SD and basically kill dod due to its negative defenses, or go hard into a scarfer/prio user. Just like pyroar broke the tier with stabs+coverage, dod can do the same and keep its last slot for roost: very useful vs suckerpunch and when u expect an obvious sack, so you don't waste one turn (say they will obviously send a 30% mesprit as their sack: just roost and then proceed to ko it!).
edit: knock is for lefties regirock, tangela, mudsdale, quagsire, audino, weezing etc

Second set:
☆Pogofish: CRODRIO


I used this set after losing many games vs stall and fat stuff spamming twaves toxics and shit. LifeOrb BB is super strong, jumpkick LO actually hits regirock. I was using roost+LO but the recoil was too much, so I actually tried this set after seeing pogofish's enthusiasm for my suggestion that he called: CRODRIO (not cro actually but who cares). Here's my latest version, note that you only sleep during one turn, which is too much vs offense but really useful vs stall and bulky teams. Idk if this is actually viable but it still gets KOs just like the banded one vs offense/balance, so it isnt deadweight just because of resttalk.

Hf!
:dod:
 
Last edited:

UberSkitty

Ok now rank Cherrim
is a Pre-Contributor
#64
Ok I know I just posted here but now that I've gotten more experience with the meta there's something I've been wanting to bring up.

The Problem with PU's Current Metagame Does this count as clickbait?

First of all, I'm mostly a balance player in an offensive meta, so take this with a grain of salt. To put it simply, the problem is in teambuilding. We've just escaped this problem, with the banning of Kingler and Pyroar taking out two enormous threats that need to be checked in teambuilding. While there isn't one particular offensive mon that's as difficult to check as the two of those were, we've still put ourselves in the same situation as before in that a team not losing against some offensive threat has become virtually impossible (more or less).

Teambuilding was at its prime after the previously mentioned Kingler and Pyroar bans happened, but even then there were people who still found certain things overwhelming. In our most recent tier shift, we gained two great defensive mons in Quagsire and Jellicent to help with this. However, we simultaneously got two more large offensive threats with Dodrio and Choice Specs Jellicent. The council decided not to quickban either, with the understandable reasoning that they alone could be adapted to. The problem with this is that we already have so many threats that we have "adapted" to. The list below consists of the major offensive threats with certain flaws that kept them from being banned.

Jellicent
Aggron
Aurorus
Dodrio
Lilligant
Omastar

All of these mons have checks and counters. However, these checks and counters are pretty, er, specific. Dodrio is a great example of this, since many of its defensive checks like Regirock have to run Chople Berry just so it can't OHKO them. Otherwise your best bet is to revenge kill it after its been worn down, which is a common trend among these. It also applies for Jellicent and Aurorus, who also suffer from depending on predictions to pick up KOes. First of all, wearing foes down is not something you can really count as a check to something when teambuilding. Next, there's a limited amount of mons that can switch directly into Jellicent and Aurorus safely, and even things like Assault Vest Crabominable have been adapted to in Aurorus's case. Therefore, teams are forced to have cores to play around them, like Jellicent+Clefairy in Jellicent's case. Lilligant can't provide coverage for every one of its checks, but simultaneously this means unless you're running something like Oricorio, all you can do is hope it isn't running the coverage that beats your check. Aggron and Omastar both also fall under the slow and easy to revenge kill category, with their main different being in that they do have some solid checks, but as stated before, they're pretty specific mons like Quagsire and Hitmonchan, respectively. And this is just prepping in teambuilder, since I've faced teams with cores like Lilligant+Dodrio+Omastar, which with support like Alolan Persian's Parting Shot can set up relatively easily, and by the time you've gotten through one of them you're team is weakened to the point where another can just clean up the match with ease.

Mesprit
Skuntank
Froslass
Gurdurr
Kangaskhan
Lycanroc
Oricorio-Sensu
Jynx
Primeape
Scyther
Stoutland
Alolan Sandslash

While these may not be in my "borderline broken" category, they're the offensive mons from S, A+, and A (also Alolan Sandslash) on the VR that need to be accounted for when teambuilding, and that's not including other threats from the lower ranks like Alolan Exeggutor, Golurk, and Manectric that still need to be taken into consideration. While many do share checks and counters, it's kinda difficult to have Regirock be your switchin for everything while managing to keep it healthy enough, notably without Leftovers, to live a +2 Z-Jump Kick from Dodrio. These mon definitely aren't the main issue, but do contribute to it when trying to accommodate for everything in a team.
  • Stealth Rock: Stealth Rock.
  • Choice Scarf: The main source of Speed control so you aren't completely swept by fast mons.
  • Hazard control: Hazards are just such a large part of this meta, if you don't have a way to remove them you're just asking to be worn down.
  • Actual team synergy: This one seems kinda obvious, but I've found it can be missed when focusing on checking specific stuff.
  • Priority: Backup Speed control for when Lilligant and Omastar outspeed your Choice Scarf mon.
  • Wallbreaker: So your team isn't offensively underwhelming.
  • Wincon: Setup mons are good, use them.
  • Spikes: With Spike setters like Froslass and Qwilfish, they are just so good in our current meta.
  • Taunt: Helps against so much stuff ranging from setup mons to bulky mons to hazard setters.
  • Toxic: Just a solid backup to deal with bulky mons, don't judge.
  • Multiple Fighting checks: While it seems pretty specific, mons like Mesprit and Froslass are just so easy to wear down.
While the first four are the main things needed on a team, they often require a good portion of the rest, some more than others, to be successful. Similar to the previous list, there are various mons that can fulfill multiple of these roles, and I'm not saying ban Stealth Rock or anything, these requirements just add on to the difficulty of fitting everything onto a team.

As I've said multiple times in this post, this all needs to be squeezed into 6 slots. On top of this making teambuilding pretty difficult, it also leads to me having mons like Mesprit, Togedemaru, and Regirock on half my teams simply because they can fulfill these roles. So does this mean some mons should be suspected? In my opinion, yes. Between Jellicent, Aggron, Aurorus, Dodrio, Lilligant, and Omastar, none of them are standalone broken, altogether they just create an overwhelming and in my opinion unhealthy metagame.

On a final note, people are saying we should resuspect Samurott, but in our current state, frik no. Even with mons like Qwilfish, Quagsire, and Jellicent around, we don't need another offensive threat to have to worry about when teambuilding.
 

Megazard

The Piranha Plant of Super Staff Bros
is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
PU Leader
#65

This contains a semi response to the above point as well as general meta opinions from HJAD and myself. tldw I think the current meta is real fun and fresh and while I agree it balances out way different than PU has in the past with the real strong top threats skitty listed above, I don't think that is inherently a bad thing.
 
#66
Ok I know I just posted here but now that I've gotten more experience with the meta there's something I've been wanting to bring up.

The Problem with PU's Current Metagame Does this count as clickbait?

First of all, I'm mostly a balance player in an offensive meta, so take this with a grain of salt. To put it simply, the problem is in teambuilding. We've just escaped this problem, with the banning of Kingler and Pyroar taking out two enormous threats that need to be checked in teambuilding. While there isn't one particular offensive mon that's as difficult to check as the two of those were, we've still put ourselves in the same situation as before in that a team not losing against some offensive threat has become virtually impossible (more or less).

Teambuilding was at its prime after the previously mentioned Kingler and Pyroar bans happened, but even then there were people who still found certain things overwhelming. In our most recent tier shift, we gained two great defensive mons in Quagsire and Jellicent to help with this. However, we simultaneously got two more large offensive threats with Dodrio and Choice Specs Jellicent. The council decided not to quickban either, with the understandable reasoning that they alone could be adapted to. The problem with this is that we already have so many threats that we have "adapted" to. The list below consists of the major offensive threats with certain flaws that kept them from being banned.

Jellicent
Aggron
Aurorus
Dodrio
Lilligant
Omastar

All of these mons have checks and counters. However, these checks and counters are pretty, er, specific. Dodrio is a great example of this, since many of its defensive checks like Regirock have to run Chople Berry just so it can't OHKO them. Otherwise your best bet is to revenge kill it after its been worn down, which is a common trend among these. It also applies for Jellicent and Aurorus, who also suffer from depending on predictions to pick up KOes. First of all, wearing foes down is not something you can really count as a check to something when teambuilding. Next, there's a limited amount of mons that can switch directly into Jellicent and Aurorus safely, and even things like Assault Vest Crabominable have been adapted to in Aurorus's case. Therefore, teams are forced to have cores to play around them, like Jellicent+Clefairy in Jellicent's case. Lilligant can't provide coverage for every one of its checks, but simultaneously this means unless you're running something like Oricorio, all you can do is hope it isn't running the coverage that beats your check. Aggron and Omastar both also fall under the slow and easy to revenge kill category, with their main different being in that they do have some solid checks, but as stated before, they're pretty specific mons like Quagsire and Hitmonchan, respectively. And this is just prepping in teambuilder, since I've faced teams with cores like Lilligant+Dodrio+Omastar, which with support like Alolan Persian's Parting Shot can set up relatively easily, and by the time you've gotten through one of them you're team is weakened to the point where another can just clean up the match with ease.

Mesprit
Skuntank
Froslass
Gurdurr
Kangaskhan
Lycanroc
Oricorio-Sensu
Jynx
Primeape
Scyther
Stoutland
Alolan Sandslash

While these may not be in my "borderline broken" category, they're the offensive mons from S, A+, and A (also Alolan Sandslash) on the VR that need to be accounted for when teambuilding, and that's not including other threats from the lower ranks like Alolan Exeggutor, Golurk, and Manectric that still need to be taken into consideration. While many do share checks and counters, it's kinda difficult to have Regirock be your switchin for everything while managing to keep it healthy enough, notably without Leftovers, to live a +2 Z-Jump Kick from Dodrio. These mon definitely aren't the main issue, but do contribute to it when trying to accommodate for everything in a team.
  • Stealth Rock: Stealth Rock.
  • Choice Scarf: The main source of Speed control so you aren't completely swept by fast mons.
  • Hazard control: Hazards are just such a large part of this meta, if you don't have a way to remove them you're just asking to be worn down.
  • Actual team synergy: This one seems kinda obvious, but I've found it can be missed when focusing on checking specific stuff.
  • Priority: Backup Speed control for when Lilligant and Omastar outspeed your Choice Scarf mon.
  • Wallbreaker: So your team isn't offensively underwhelming.
  • Wincon: Setup mons are good, use them.
  • Spikes: With Spike setters like Froslass and Qwilfish, they are just so good in our current meta.
  • Taunt: Helps against so much stuff ranging from setup mons to bulky mons to hazard setters.
  • Toxic: Just a solid backup to deal with bulky mons, don't judge.
  • Multiple Fighting checks: While it seems pretty specific, mons like Mesprit and Froslass are just so easy to wear down.
While the first four are the main things needed on a team, they often require a good portion of the rest, some more than others, to be successful. Similar to the previous list, there are various mons that can fulfill multiple of these roles, and I'm not saying ban Stealth Rock or anything, these requirements just add on to the difficulty of fitting everything onto a team.

As I've said multiple times in this post, this all needs to be squeezed into 6 slots. On top of this making teambuilding pretty difficult, it also leads to me having mons like Mesprit, Togedemaru, and Regirock on half my teams simply because they can fulfill these roles. So does this mean some mons should be suspected? In my opinion, yes. Between Jellicent, Aggron, Aurorus, Dodrio, Lilligant, and Omastar, none of them are standalone broken, altogether they just create an overwhelming and in my opinion unhealthy metagame.

On a final note, people are saying we should resuspect Samurott, but in our current state, frik no. Even with mons like Qwilfish, Quagsire, and Jellicent around, we don't need another offensive threat to have to worry about when teambuilding.
Well-structured post and I agree with what you've gone on about when it comes to establishing a proper checklist. However, where I start to disagree is about the offensive threats, as they are more manageable in practice, and I feel like you're going too far in assuming perfect scenarios for them every time.

On paper, yes, counters won't exist to each and every Pokemon listed, but battles just don't play out that way most of the time. The reason Aggron/Aurorus/Omastar are "adapted to" isn't just because we've found more GSIs, but we've also adjusted our builds to exploit their Speed tier and abuse their prevalent weaknesses, get off chip damage, or revenge kill them with many options. That's typically how teams deal with the threats you've listed on practice and why Dodrio has been seen as less problematic by an increased number of players. Lilligant is interesting, as it's better by virtue of two new balance linchpins being major setup targets, but we still have enough different ways of checking it that we can account for its coverage options (oricorios, chan/throh, null/munch, clef, scyther, cuno, spdef aloslash, dragonvally/drampa/eggy-a means it can't get away with one option and steamroll the meta). This is coupled with the fact that Scarfers faster than its speed tier remains the golden standard, to which there are many options.

I also defend Jellicent's position in PU as one of the healthiest additions we've had in a while. Specs is strong but there's room for counterplay despite the stab combo's lack of resists. It's similar to Aggron and Aurorus, but its dual STAB, unlike those, has another exploitable factor via immunities. This, coupled with being Pursuit-trapped, makes it far easier to exploit if it makes the wrong move/after it has gotten a kill. Much like Aggron/Aurorus, its Speed tier and weaknesses can be accounted for to mitigate its threat level (especially since keeping prior damage away is important), as balance, stall, and offense have options like SpDef Cuno, AV Lanturn, and Hitmonchan that do this just fine on their playstyles. The main healthy aspect about Specs is how well it punishes passiveness, which is great with the increased viable options for stall and fat balance. Otherwise, the defensive/anti-stall utility that other sets bring are highly valued, neither of which I find overbearing. I've been able to not only find a good GSI to Crabominable and Omastar for once, but I've also been able to bring into light Pokemon like Roselia which not only checks Jelli very well but also synergizes brilliantly with it and capitalizes on rising counterplay to it (Lilli/Lant)

idc about rott, but all this approach of blanket banning offensive threats that threaten balance is doing is pushing the meta to a point where balance becomes risk-free above all else. Not only did we get Jellicent, but also Quagsire, which gives players more options on fatter styles for many of the listed offensive threats, especially Aggron, Dodrio, and Lycanroc. This new metagame has brought life to playstyles other than offense a great deal, so I'm not seeing a reason this mindset still exists.
 

yogi

Eevee-cational
is a Tutoris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
#67
Just going to quickly drop my thoughts on the current meta, not gonna be a big post or super in-depth but yah. Overall, this meta is really fun! I'm enjoying building and playing in it. While there are a lot of strong offensive Pokemon, I think it's a new take on PU and isn't inherently a bad thing. PU has been heavily balance based for quite some time now, and seeing offensive teams being far more popular is a breath of fresh air. The removal of inherently broken Pokemon like Pyroar, and arguably Kingler, along with the new drops has really shook up the metagame. Yeah, you can sometimes have incredibly bad match-ups, but I actually like not having long balance vs balance games, with it always being down to basically a long game of chess; which is what I considered the FerroClef meta as. I'll probably give my thoughts on different meta elements when I have time, but I'm quite happy with the state of PU right now and I'm looking forward to playing more of it.
 

Ktütverde

Always turning thoughts into things
is a Tiering Contributor
#68
I agree with UberSkitty 's post, and would like to say which one of the "dominant threats" is the most broken, and why. I still have plenty to learn about the current meta like everyone, so I try to play as much as possible, and here's my feeling.

1) Jellicent: This one is "healthy" only for one reason imo: makes balance teams without hitmonchan not 6-0ed by alolan sandslash. Drainpunch regi is cool ofc, but is often underwhelming when trying to beat LO+SD 8turns hail alolan sandslash. Otherwise jellicent is just slapped in teams because there's no reason not to. Doesnt even check gurdurr and chan reliably, it's just used to pressure the oppo and not with a defensive purpose usually. Specs has no reliable counterplay and I just see 5050s in jelli vs jelli battles, while taunt jelli destroys balance. I used cacturne, spdef abomasnow and roselia as some joke counterplay and I'm now seeing people actually think roselia is a good mon : this is barely better than carbink to check pyroar or hakamoO to check magmortar. Roselia isnt and will never be good, and doesnt even put in work reliably in the games ive seen, by getting trapped by skunk or just not checking anything except jelli. If roselias keep being used I would start thinking about a suspect. This would be overadaptation, aka centralization.


2) Dodrio: Dod is fun until you are facing it and 1) have no dod in ur own team 2) dont have regirock either. Dod has no viable switchin, thats all. I dont know what else I should say, I'm ok with a super offensive pu meta with spikes speed ties and some awkward persians and togedemaru plays, but a well-played dodrio just gets free kills and impacts teambuilding significantly. In comparison, using an AV lanturn or chan was basically costless in order to check pyroar, which also couldnt sweep a team, was slower etc. Building balance without regirock is crazy rn, you have to pressure ur oppo not to let the dod get kills or start boosting and sweeping. Z fight dod beats regi too so you cant be passive at all. +2 Z BB ohkos mudsdale, quagsire doesnt beat the Z / band. Counterplay where.


About the last 4 listed by skitty:

Aggron has only become worse than ever with the introduction of quagsire and mudsdales being everywhere when they didnt exist one month ago. Poliwrath is still good, gurdurr is amazing but not used that much, jellicent outspeeds it. You will struggle vs aggron if it switches in on ur rocks mesprit but otherwise there is a lot of counterplay. Also who uses aggron which dies to dod's jumpkick.

Aurorus isnt seen outside of hail, which makes sense since most people would be using aggron unless they want to use alolan sandslash. Scarf is very rare, especially because it makes u weak to shellsmash users, to lilligant, and because togedemaru is fucking good isnt it. People are realizing how great spdef sandslash-A is, so lilligant doesnt click blizzards as it used to. Also, who uses specs aurorus when u can use specs jelli.

Omastar is slower than most scarfers and is revengekilled by machpunch, very hard to setup. I rarely see it and can understand its low usage since it never does its job properly. Wanna wallbreak? use specs jelli. Oh and jelli checks it too. Poor oma.

Lilli has been here for ages, still does the same thing, sweep when your team has weakened its checks. We got skunk, oricorio, hitmonchan, togedemaru, scyther to handle it, but its a bit harder now it doesnt have to use hprock/hpfire for pyroar/ferro respecti-vely. Besides, it relies on its coverage move way less than in the past metas which makes it unpredictable and very dangerous, so I would list it as the "most broken" mon after 1° jelli and 2° dod. Unless you have spdef skuntank or uuh silvally poison? You might just get swept by it. Sleepowder sucks so much, thank god lilli auto-owns itself by missing it or by putting foes alseep for only one turn sometimes. Sandsalsh-A walls it so things are a lot easier.
 
#69
Alright, now that I've had some more time to play around with the new additions, Dodrio in particular I have a more clear cut opinion on them now that they have been part of the meta for a few weeks. First I'll start with the one that seems to be getting the most attention. Dodrio, I've used this one the most out of the three big drops. I've found it to be a pretty good mon to have on teams. However, in my personal experience, it hasn't really reached the level of being completely broken. I find it getting pressured rather often as the meta is just so offensive currently. It makes switching Dodrio in rather challenging as it isn't the most sturdy of things and takes a decent chunk from stuff that isn't even super effective. Dodrio is really good, however I just don't see it as being as broken or as powerful as initially many believed it to be. The meta with it's focus on offense is both a blessing and a curse for Dodrio. Now for Jellicent which I've used the second most outta the three drops. Honestly I've had far more consistent success with Jellicent then with Dodrio. Jellicent, especially the choice specs set has been a real fun mon to mess around with. A lot of teams I've come across just don't seem prepared for Specs Jelli and because of this Jelli does a lot of work and does it rather consistently and efficiently. However as of right now, neither mon has felt like they are super broken to me. They are both really good, but, they just don't feel like they are quite on the level that Pyroar was to me. Now as for my thoughts on the meta overall and in general. I believe it would be tough to really ban or remove too many things right now. I believe that the PU meta is just going to be naturally offensive. If we begin to move towards starting to ban offensive threats I fear that this will just lead to a slippery slope. Once the top two threats are gone then the next threat will be thrown on the chopping block. This kind of happened when Pyroar/Kingler got removed from the meta and that period of time post Pyroar where I noticed people where beginning to call for moving Aggron to S rank or wanting it suspected. Also around that time there was even some that where seeking to have Froslass suspected. Both of those kinda of went by the wayside for the time being as a result of Dodrio/Jellicent/Quagsire dropping down not long after. I'm all for a healthy meta and a healthy tier, however I do hope that this slippery slope is avoided and if eventually Dodrio/Jellicent get suspected and they do get removed that it doesn't just continue down the list. Just looking over the tier in general, there is many offensive threats, I just feel it would take way too much removal of mon's to make other playstyle's more viable or more even with one another. Overrall, I have enjoyed playing around with team building and trying out everything and coming up with new teams and idea's in the current meta. I'm real curious to see just what happens in the next few weeks, these are interesting times indeed and I really like seeing so much difference in opinion and things being debated back and forth.
 

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