Metagame np: USUM PU Stage 4.5- Spikes [Minior Quickban]

[Ktütverde]

Hello, I just wanted to put my two cents in about the kingler suspect, because I've seen many people in the PU room saying that ursaring is more dangerous or that octillery is stronger, and also because even mid- / good- level players with not enough experience in PU sometimes don't really know exactly why kingler is broken, which is understandable given all its flaws. The main reasons have been given above, so I want to list some scenarios and Match-Ups vs Kingler.

Sets

Agility sweeper

Kingler @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Liquidation
- Ice Beam
- Stomping Tantrum
- Agility



SD wallbreaker

Kingler @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Liquidation
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Swords Dance

Here are some scenarios showing how unhealthy kingler is:

-vs Offense (ex: mesprit/chan/togedemaru/pyroar/lycanrock/swanna).
Kingler might look semideadweight because it is ko'd or almost ko'd by mesprit, swanna, pyroar, Z lycan, and zingzap. The issue, however, is that it can come in on chan relatively safely and do a ton of damage to mesprit/swanna which try to check it. You will say: well same with a drampa/ursaring, you can't wall it! Yes, but kingler can just come back later via parting shot/healing wish/on a resisted move, use agility and JUST WIN. tl;dr : kingler wallbreaks and sweeps at the same time; it is therefore self sufficient. Its good typing (pure water)+high physical bulk help it further achieving this goal: if it gets an agility, machpunch+accelerock won't be enough to Ko it.

-vs Balance (ex: regirock/tangela/pyroar/skuntank/poliwrath/togedemaru)
Bulky teams always have a tangela/silvally-water/silvally-dragon JUST for the kingler matchup (even though they aren't bad at all), so one could think RIP kingler. But kingler doesn't really care actually. Whether you are using SD or agility, it can often break the team on its own. I just created a random BO team here with two of the "best kingler checks", tangela and poliwrath. This team is probably the least weak to kingler since you can check it defensively and offensively with pyroar and toge, but you can also just mispredict and have your tangela icebeamed, or your poliwrath SD+superpowered. Good matchup, but only because of Tangela+Poli (which could be tangela+silvally-W/D). The team is still super-centered around the kingler matchup, and will struggle with stuff like lanturn w/ icebeam, eelektross or swanna, but the priority is kingler nowadays. I won't even talk about kingler+spikes, because nothing can reliably check that.

-vs Stall (ex: pyukumuku/altaria/articuno/regirock/audino/tangela)
No pyukumuku=instaloss vs kingler. The only pokemon able to COUNTER kingler is pyukumuku, so I don't need to explain further: stall would simply be unviable (or relying on predictions/wish passing to kingler checks) without pyuku, so you had better keep it healthy vs kingler. I don't like stall, by that I mean if you are stalling and get swept that's your problem, but I find it pretty scary that kingler destroys almost any stall without pyuku (stall can still use other methods to wall gurdurr/Crotomb/absol etc, but nothing else is able to 100% beat kingler)



-Note that Kingler+Mesprit is super common (well mesprit itself is super common), so saying that Kingler+HW is broken for exemple is stupid since Healing Wish is THE meta and should be taken into account just as stealth rock and defog.
-The teams used as exemples don't belong to anybody as far as I know, I just put together pokemons which represent the playstyles and synergize together quite well.

 

[yogi]

Ok so almost all of the posts thus far have covered my stance on Kingler, but I'd like to talk about the problem as a whole too (of course I know the Kingler test will address some of it), because right now PU has a problem. It is over-saturated by threats. What I mean is that building a general team is basically impossible without it resorting to being either very offensive or just straight losing to Pokemon.

Now, I like to think I'm a decent builder. But even when building I struggled to make teams that would function consistently on the ladder, without losing to something. Now I don't mean a random Life Orb Rampardos or something equally as niche, I'm referring to current meta staples like Aurorus, Aggron, and Pyroar. I found even teams that contained Pokemon such as Type: Null + Poliwrath, which is meant to check the previously mentioned Pokemon + Kingler just make you lose to something else, like Gurdurr in this case. It's so hard to build something which you're just able to use without worrying about needing to forfeit to some of the most common Pokemon.

PU simply has too many offensive threats and we've lost more and more Pokemon that are able to act as glue to check these and, even after the banning of both Archeops and Magmortar, the tier just keeps getting more and more threats emerging because of shifts. Like I said this drastically affects team building, but also just makes the meta probably one of my, and other's, least favourite to date.

The banning of Kingler will certainly help but even after it's gone there's still a plethora of stupidly good sweepers, wallbreakers, and cleaners that the defensive side of the tier struggles to even blanket check. Either we're going to have to get an extremely good tier shift or Pokemon such as Aurorus and Pyroar need to go. I'll admit I was a bit skewed in my view before laddering, mainly because I build versus specific people, but after playing a bit I can see the meta is in a very awkward place right now.

 

[MZ]

This post has been restarted and rewritten about 6 times and still seems far from cohesive or easy to understand. Sorry.

I'm going to be voting no ban on Kingler. I wish I had come to this conclusion earlier so I could raise some discussion before literally the last day of qualifying, but the decision really was that close for me. You can hear some of my earlier thoughts on last week's untier talk, and since then I've done a lot of reflecting on Kingler's place in the new PU metagame. Kingler isn't broken. I dislike Kingler because of what it does to teambuilding, and I dislike the current PU metagame in general, but my uncomfortableness with what PU has become just isn't enough to warrant a ban vote to me. PU right now reminds me of RU. During RUPL I got exposed to a metagame which I saw as much more offensive, lacking consistent ways to counter lots of offensive mons without similar blanket checks and forcing very offensive teamstyles and playstyles, and at the time I really hated it. Pokemon like Mega Blastoise couldn't be countered by any team without a Milotic and had to be handled with lots of offensive pressure and faster breakers, and that to me is the best Kingler analog right now except we have more, shakier checks. Kingler isn't broken and it doesn't put too much pressure on teams on its own, it's just obnoxious and different to deal with in a way that I don't personally love but have been slowly adapting to and accepting.

I don't think Kingler would be overbearing if we didn't have Pyroar. It'd remain a really good Pokemon that forces you to think about it a lot, but not unfairly centralizing or unstoppable. And no, "I think Pyroar should've been suspected" isn't an argument, but noticing the way Pyroar pushes the PU meta in a direction which makes it much weaker to Kingler is reasonable. We have a lot of options for keeping Kingler in check offensively, we have the rise of Helmet and Spikes, we have plenty of neat Pokemon like Tangela and Lurantis. It's just that in a metagame with such a stupid offensive threat with far fewer offensive means of checking it, balanced or fatter teams are inevitably so much weaker to Kingler because of that. And this isn't entirely down to Pyroar, but I feel like its presence has a very large hand in these building issues. Fatter teams are so close to being able to put their resources into checking the strong, crazy wallbreakers like Kingler and Aggron, but also needing to work out a way to handle the strong, crazy, and really fast and much more versatile wallbreaking of Pyroar is what pushes building over the edge to me. I wouldn't be voting do not ban if I didn't feel very confident that Kingler's effect on the metagame really isn't that bad and that Pyroar is the real culprit of the building issues. I'm not voting do not ban because I'd rather ban something else, I'm voting do not ban because Kingler isn't a problem and isn't banworthy on its own.

My original ban Kingler stance took a lot from wanting the metagame to change. I didn't and don't love the current PU meta, so banning Kingler should help change things. That is not a good mindset for fixing the metagame though. Getting change right is more important than getting change quick. And if you really look hard about the kind of change you want to see in PU, what will banning Kingler do? Most of its checks are popular Pokemon that will remain popular. Watervally, Dragonvally, and Qwilfish are all great, Poliwrath is here to stay as a good Pokemon so deal with it, and Lurantis and Tangela will always be solid options at least. We'll just shift to new strong physical wallbreakers like Aggron, or maybe physical Water-types like Floatzel, SD Qwil, Huntail, Basculin, I don't know, weaker and less spammable Pokemon but ones that still force similar-ish kinds of preparation for physical Water-types, that need won't just go away. And Pyroar will still be an issue unless we handle him too. Like I don't think Kingler is going to help the metagame very much. So the only stance I could get is if you think Kingler is outright broken or centralizing, and sure some people think that. I just don't see it quite dominating games as this unstoppable force. If you look at recent performances in tournaments, Kingler has shifted more into a threatening but manageable wallbreaker than anything else, kept in check by proper but not overbearing preparation. Maybe I'll end up 100% wrong, and either Kingler sticks around and gets even dumber or nobody agrees and it just gets banned. It's looking very much like Kingler will be going after the suspect, although it's always hard to tell due to most discussion happening in the PU room or discord, where you can't easily look back at opinions like you can with forum posts. Still, I hope this maybe changes somebody's mind, if they can read or understand my long-winded gibberish.

 

[Skankovich]

For me not banning Kingler came down to its combination of underwhelming bulk and speed. While Kingler does lack many solid counters, I find checks are sufficient in dealing with it since it's likely only going to get 1 or 2 chances a game to come in a break stuff in the first place. Yes, mons like Qwilfish, Silv-Dragon/Water, more offensive Poliwrath etc can really only switch into it twice at max, but what kind of team is both passive enough to let a mon like Kingler come in more than that without also being able to fit in a solid counter like Pyuku?

That's the crux of it for me when it comes to breaking ability, so the main thing that differentiates Kingler from the abundance of slow nukes around its speed tier (Rat, Absol, Ursa, Stout and so on) is its Agility set along with a positive matchup against priority, which generally makes it a bigger threat to offensive teams than the aforementioned mons. This is admittedly a difficult set for offensive teams to prepare for, being able to set up on a clean switch into Hitmonchan or Skuntank and then outspeed the most common scarfers, but both still do upwards of 70% with a combination of their STAB followed by their priority, leaving it well within the range of any other priority or basically any water resists the team has left at that point. It's threatening, but not really overbearing.

This gen I typically run bulkier balance squads, the type that should be pressured by Kingler the most, and am also a filthy ladder player who should be more impacted by Kingler's effect on teambuilding since I have to prepare for a broader range of threats, but I just can't say I find it exceptionally difficult to deal with. Plenty of mons are more irritating at the teambuilding team (shout out to Aggron!) and several more irritating when actually playing (shout out to Pyroar!).

 

[MZ]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-pu-suspect-process-stage-4-voting.3640788/
Kingler has been banned. Stay tuned for news on Pyroar.

 

[MZ]

The PU council has decided to suspect test Pyroar. This has been a long time coming, with concerns about Pyroar's presence stretching back to the Magmortar days of PU. With the ability to run many different sets and coverage moves, Pyroar is nigh impossible to counter, and even traditionally solid checks such as Regirock and Poliwrath have begun to become less and less reliable as Will-O-Wisp and Z-Solarbeam sets have picked up steam alongside Firium, Normalium, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Life Orb, and Toxic+Protect sets. Pyroar is also very hard to pressure offensively, with revenge killing being limited to a small handful of faster Pokemon and Choice Scarf users. On the flipside, Pyroar is rather frail and extremely susceptible to priority and chip damage from every form of entry hazard. While none of these Pokemon can claim to outright counter Pyroar, it can be checked by everything from Hitmonchan to Clefairy depending on what set it is opting to run. The PU council still sees Pyroar as a suspect-worthy threat since the Kingler ban, but that does not mean that teambuilding hasn't been more free to devote more resources to handling Pyroar since the removal of another large threat, and Pokemon like Silvally-Dragon aren't quite as pressured without the need to pull double duty checking both Pyroar and Kingler.

This suspect test will follow the same format as the recent Kingler suspect, except shorter. Due to this being directly after the recent Kingler suspect and before the PU Ladder Tour, the suspect will be abbreviated and only run until next Sunday, September 1. There will not be a suspect ladder or suspect tours.

Your new suspect alt must begin with PUSP (eg: PUSP Megazard). The alt doesn’t have to be your forum name, it’s just like a regular suspect alt but with PUSP in front of it. There will be a message at the beginning of ladder games informing people that there is a suspect going on. Marty one more time please
The requirements will be a 30 game minimum with 80 GXE. The decrease in difficulty is due to the abbreviated nature of the suspect. Because there will be no separate suspect ladder, you can start laddering immediately, just make sure your alt is acceptable.

The suspect will end on Sunday, September 2nd at 10pm EST. Good luck qualifying!

 

[Lil Infant Tylenol]

Alright I guess Ill try to break the ice again on the discussion of pyroar

Hearing from most people, I believe a lot of people believe pyroar is ban worthy. I understand most of the sentiment of why people believe it should go. It is really tough to switch into with specs because it hits like a complete truck. Then pyroar can run grassium Z to nuke basically all of its specs switch ins. Then also it is probably the fastest viable scarfer allowing it to outspeed Scarf Man and Scarf Scyther. However, I believe I will be going against popular opinion and will be voting No Ban on Pyroar. This just comes to down to me believing that it is a top tier threat, but not enough for me to believe to ban it.

So first reason I will be voting no ban is because every style of play has counter play to it. In stall, Altaria and audino can work together to reliably check it. Stall is obviously not good in PU rn, but its not just because of pyroar. There are so many great wall/stallbreakers that can really put in a lot work against stall. If we look at balance, they often have walls that pyroar struggles to break through common balance core mons. Regirock, Cradily, lanturn, and Hitmonchan can reliably check pyroar. These mons (with maybe the exception of cradily) are very viable options can reliably deal with pyroar. Offense most likely has the toughest time with pyroar. If it is scarfed, pyroar can out speed basically everything on the team and get a kill if played correctly. However, offense has reliable counter play towards pyroar. In rain, pyroar is pretty close to deadweight (and rain has got a lot more popular recently) In bulky offense, they can have reliable pivots like AV hitmonchan and AV lanturn. Then offense has options for priority moves like aqua jet and mach punch that can pick it off after a little chip and a SR switch in. Its definetly tough to beat scarf pyroar on offense, but not an impossible task.

The next point I would like to make is how good spikes got in PU. Pyroar is already weak to SR and the influx of spikes to the tier does not help it perform better. It makes it even easier to pick off with a priority and makes it so Specs can come in a lot less as a result. Obviously, this alone doesn't make it not ban worthy, but imo it adds on to its weaknesses making it more manageable for teams to deal with.

The final reason I will be voting no ban is the amount of checks to Pyroar. Sure, countering Pyroar is damn near impossible. However the amount of checks is good amount. A lot of mons can scare it out or outright take it out. I mentioned a lot of them, but one more is Drampa. Drampa can take any hit and fire back with a hard hit (and drampa is really hard to switch into). Obviously Drampa is not a safe switch in, but it is another decent check due to its good bulk and resistance to fire blast. Every set a has a good amount of checks to it. It can be a pain finding out what set it is, but once that is done Pyroar can dealt with accordingly.

In conclusion, this is just my opinion. I just got back into mons like 2 and a half months ago and just got into PU again like a month ago so I might not be the best person to ask about this. However, I still feel that this mon is not ban worthy. Feel free to rebute or counter any points I make here in this post. So TL;DR is Pyroar has a decent amount of checks and is dueable to deal with in teambuilding.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Alright I guess Ill try to break the ice again on the discussion of pyroar

Hearing from most people, I believe a lot of people believe pyroar is ban worthy. I understand most of the sentiment of why people believe it should go. It is really tough to switch into with specs because it hits like a complete truck. Then pyroar can run grassium Z to nuke basically all of its specs switch ins. Then also it is probably the fastest viable scarfer allowing it to outspeed Scarf Man and Scarf Scyther. However, I believe I will be going against popular opinion and will be voting No Ban on Pyroar. This just comes to down to me believing that it is a top tier threat, but not enough for me to believe to ban it.

So first reason I will be voting no ban is because every style of play has counter play to it. In stall, Altaria and audino can work together to reliably check it. Stall is obviously not good in PU rn, but its not just because of pyroar. There are so many great wall/stallbreakers that can really put in a lot work against stall. If we look at balance, they often have walls that pyroar struggles to break through common balance core mons. Regirock, Cradily, lanturn, and Hitmonchan can reliably check pyroar. These mons (with maybe the exception of cradily) are very viable options can reliably deal with pyroar. Offense most likely has the toughest time with pyroar. If it is scarfed, pyroar can out speed basically everything on the team and get a kill if played correctly. However, offense has reliable counter play towards pyroar. In rain, pyroar is pretty close to deadweight (and rain has got a lot more popular recently) In bulky offense, they can have reliable pivots like AV hitmonchan and AV lanturn. Then offense has options for priority moves like aqua jet and mach punch that can pick it off after a little chip and a SR switch in. Its definetly tough to beat scarf pyroar on offense, but not an impossible task.

The next point I would like to make is how good spikes got in PU. Pyroar is already weak to SR and the influx of spikes to the tier does not help it perform better. It makes it even easier to pick off with a priority and makes it so Specs can come in a lot less as a result. Obviously, this alone doesn't make it not ban worthy, but imo it adds on to its weaknesses making it more manageable for teams to deal with.

The final reason I will be voting no ban is the amount of checks to Pyroar. Sure, countering Pyroar is damn near impossible. However the amount of checks is good amount. A lot of mons can scare it out or outright take it out. I mentioned a lot of them, but one more is Drampa. Drampa can take any hit and fire back with a hard hit (and drampa is really hard to switch into). Obviously Drampa is not a safe switch in, but it is another decent check due to its good bulk and resistance to fire blast. Every set a has a good amount of checks to it. It can be a pain finding out what set it is, but once that is done Pyroar can dealt with accordingly.

In conclusion, this is just my opinion. I just got back into mons like 2 and a half months ago and just got into PU again like a month ago so I might not be the best person to ask about this. However, I still feel that this mon is not ban worthy. Feel free to rebute or counter any points I make here in this post. So TL;DR is Pyroar has a decent amount of checks and is dueable to deal with in teambuilding.

See, a massive issue with the "it has checks" line of thought is that it completely neglects the fact that in order to get the check in, something typically has to die first. And Pyroar just switches out to do it again later. Its lack of true counters is a much larger issue than you're making it out to be. It would be one thing if there were completely viable counters in the tier with some efficient RK'ers, but that isn't the case.

I hardly consider losing a Mon for a chance to scare Pyroar out is even remotely worth it.

Its really good speed tier, ability to run so many sets, and the fact it really has no one Mon that can switch in 100% of the time severely outweigh the fact that Drampa and Hitmonchan can scare it out.

I won't address the spikes part of your post as I personally don't see how it really ties into Pyroar itself, but thought I should speak out on your last point. Also, Pyroar is literally never dead weight. . .

I'll likely make my own more drawn out post in the next few days on why this thing without a doubt needs to get out of the tier, but it's too late in the night for that right now.

 

[Katy]

Hello,

Pyroar needs to go in my opinion. This thing has really no real checks, the best ones i consider are Sap Sipper Drampa (cause of the Bloom Doom sets this Lion is able to run) and AV Hitmonchan. Also the fact that it can reliably run Scarf makes it outspeed other Scarfers like Mesprit, Primape and such.

Pyroar to me seems pretty unhealthy for this tier. The different Sets you have to scout for is simply tedious. The tru' pain is the counterplay during a battle. Yes, it does not like entry Hazards like Stealth Rocks and Spikes, but it is usually paired up with a good Fogger or Spinner to do the work for Pyroar to come in safely.
It's teammates makes it a threat even more, like Lilligant (which is also pretty good in the tier) and Mesprit, to set Rocks for Pyroar to wear the opposing team down.

Pyroar has too many Sets to scout for, the Speedtier is really good and the breaking potential it has is also amazing. Also the fact, that it can get past it's checks with Z-Bloom Doom makes it even more a threat. It can handle with this Set almost every check of it reliably.

Even without Kingler I really see no aftereffect (downside) of using Pyroar in this tier. It still does the things it has to do perfectly and consistently.
Also the fact that there are other really good breakers and tedious Playstyles marks my opinion even more to BAN Pyroar from this tier.

 

[Ktütverde]

Hi!

My first worries when I saw the announcement of Pyroar's suspect were: -What will I use then as my main stallbreaker? -What other mons will replace it in order to effectively weaken regirock for oricorio/lycanrock to sweep? -Isn't the meta going to become super slow? -Will floatzel become the main glass cannon of PU? etc

As you can see, I was afraid of seeing the PU tier become a bunch of stupid, slow hitters like drampa/aggron/aurorus. A slow tier. because what will be left once pyroar leaves? Floatzel? Alolan-persian? raichu? These mons will never be great picks imo, and won't replace pyroar. Lycanrock? This pokemon is a lategame cleaner, and doesn't offer the cool resistances and wallbreaking power of pyroar. So let's imagine that the meta slows down, and let's forget this idea "of replacing pyroar in its speed tier". What do we have?

We have oricorio-sensu, we have oricorio-pompom, we have kangaskhan, lilligant and togedemaru. And swanna! We have primeape and we also have ninetales, which was in the shadow of pyroar. We have jynx too! Where is the problem then? There isn't any problem. All these mons could become even better than they are now if pyroar leaves. Why are all the swannas scarf now? And why is AoA ape not used? Why are all the toges scarf? I dare day that most of the mons I listed aren't used as All-out Attackers because of pyroar. Pyroar can be used in every team! Why use Z fly swanna, when u can use Z pyroar? Why use band ape/ fist plate when pyroar outspeeds it and wallbreaks way better? The current meta's balance and offense use this offensive core: Z/specs pyroar+scarfer. Always. And if a team doesn't have this, it should, because there is literally no reason not to use pyroar as ur fast hitter.

So now I know what I'm going to vote : ban pyroar. We aren't going to miss it: wallbreakers arent rare in our tier, and "fast" mons aren't either: just accept that this is PU and that a mon with less than 100 BS speed can be considered fast, and you will see that we have plenty of mons that can do the fast/glasscannon/wallbreaker role. Many of them are birds true. But pyroar was weak to stealth rock too, so we should be able to get used to it without much trouble.


PS: I disagree with the argument of "we have many checks to it". Regirock loses to Z grass, hitmonchan is 2hko'd by specs. AV lanturn struggles vs specs and Z grass. Scarfers lose to... scarf pyroar. Machpunch is a subpar counterplay, easy to predict and to take advantage of it. Audino can't touch taunt pyroar. drampa loses to hypervoice. Av regic- uh, my cat jumped on the keyboard. And the list goes on: AV eel doesn't wall anything, clefairy loses to taunt, swanna can't tank any moves reliably, and lycanrock fears wow or Z grass.

edit: I didn't mention scyther in this post, because despite being very fast it is weak x4 to rocks and can't really be compared with pyroar, especially because it isn't a wallbreaker but an utility/bulky wincon or revengekiller, and is fucking x4 weak to rocks lol

 

[SergioRules]

Okay since this is my first ever suspect test that I've gotten reqs for, I figured I should probably post my thoughts on the matter.

So I've never really thought Pyroar was necessarily broken. It's always been a great special attacker and I've used it on tons of teams, but when building I've never really had a problem with it. The versatility in its sets has always been something that most of my teams can scout for and play around... or at least I thought that was the case. The reason most of my teams don't struggle with Pyroar is because over half of them have AV Hitmonchan. In fact, all of my teams seem to have two slots dedicated to checking Pyroar. The first being something bulky enough to try and check Scarf sets (AV Lanturn, Poliwrath, Type: Null) and the second being something to revenge kill any set that isn't Scarf (Hitmonchan, Scarf Primeape, Lycanroc). I had never really realized how much pressure it put on my own building. As far as I can think, no other Pokemon in the current metagame needs 2 slots just so you don't auto-lose to it. The versatility is a great thing for using Pyroar on offense, which is the style I normally lean towards, because it can change its set to threaten the things it needs to. And as much as I hate repeating myself over and over again, it just puts so much pressure on teambuilding. I really don't believe Pyroar is flat out broken, but because of the numerous viable sets it can run, it makes lots of the metagame unviable, and I'd really love to see a meta where Swanna and Primeape aren't forced to run Scarf and Hitmonchan doesn't have to be AV along with the ability to use other mons that normally can't be considered viable due to their lackluster Pyroar matchup like SD Scyther, Bellossom, Pinsir, etc.

Basically this is just a long paragraph of me talking in circles about how I just really want to see a more diverse meta. Imo PU should be one of the premier tiers where you can use whatever singular Pokemon you want (within reason, no Luvdiscs or Pidgeots) and still be able to find success. I feel that, while not out-right broken, Pyroar limits the ability to do this and I therefore would love to see a meta without it. ban pls

edit: when I say half my teams have AV chan, I mean I have 14 PU teams after cleaning out bad ones. 7 have AV chan, 2 are Trick Room, 1 has a Ferro on it (hoping for its eventual return) which leaves only 4 teams without chan that could actually run it. One has a clef as the Pyroar check so it loses to Taunt variants, one straight up loses to Pyroar and the other 2 both have Lycanroc. Seems pretty centralizing to me.

 

[jklioe]

For those who've looked at my previous post, you could deduce that my stance on Pyroar was largely tied to Kingler's effect, reason being that sources for counterplay on the builder for Kingler happened to be complete Pyroar bait (and vice versa, Kingler pressured Regirock risk-free and could fall back on taunt Pyroar to deal with stall, etc. it was dumb), and I had initially looked at Kingler as the more pressing issue because prepping for it in my experiences felt so isolate and awkward compared to any other threat, including Pyroar. so in my eyes, Pyroar was broken because with that core alone, it literally fed on that issue while being potentially problematic itself.

Now that I've gotten what I wanted, to see how Pyroar would play out post-Kingler meta, it made me realize that Pyroar too can be just as independently broken. No matter how we look at it, the reliability in prepping for it is drastically reduced by its versatility; between taunt sets (grass-z, fire-z, normal-z, etc.), specs, scarf, and z-sunny day with room for utility like wisp, there simply is no way to bring in something truly safe against Pyroar in practice (barring the few infamous GSIs like Munchlax, SpDef Cradily and certain NFE niche mons like Hackmoo or Lampent, other than Munchlax are all very unconventional choices with extremely questionable viability). Threats like that, particularly ones that can break balance and stall well, tend to put heavy restrictions and often enforces the question "Do I have offensive pressure vs this?" Because otherwise, you'll just have to hope that it's not using the right set it needs to break through your defensive response. This isn't a healthy direction especially given its high threat level vs offense itself thanks to its dominant speed tier. this is what makes Pyroar the dominating force it is and makes this pokemon way too easy to support with and to other offensive threats.

To be clear, it's not impossible to find answers to Pyroar's kit nor should we sell that idea to the masses, but it's not acceptable if it involves sacrificing viability with what we'd have to end up using. It's safe to say that I've shifted my stance towards the route of banning it.

 

[Solaire Of New Jersey]

I've been away from PU for a while, but two things I definitely remember we're Pyroar and Kingler, two Pokémon that made learning this tier a pain in the ass. I can't claim to be an expert here, but as a more casual player unused to teambuilding, having to deal with these two was a tremendously difficult task. Kingler was simple enough, as most sets ran Agility and Swords Dance, which allowed it to cut through support, sweepers, and walls alike. Pyroar, on the other hand, was different. One day I figured I had found a solution in Assault Vest Lanturn, only for it to be gruesomely be cut down by Hidden Power Grass. It was for these reasons I left PU, the first tier that really felt welcoming to me. But now I see a chance for that to change.

 

[Bane of Tartarus]

Pyroar just isn't fun to play against. You have to have an answer to it on your team and you don't even have that half the time because of all the sets it can run. Not to mention the fact that not only can Pyroar sweep by itself, but it can open the door for it's pals, too. Hitmonchan can scare it off, but it then has to deal with whatever switches in, which will probably be a Mespirit or A-Chu carrying Psychock, or Weezing to wall.

 

[MZ]

Pyroar has been banned. Thanks everyone for participating in the suspect, feel free to begin discussing what the new metagame will look like without our strongest breakers.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

Sorry I felt a very strong urge to make this when I heard the news.

So this post actually has some content, I'm really excited to try teambuilding again (keyword try) without having to worry about getting bodied by Pyroar if I don't have Regirock/Type:Null. Sub Poliwrath looks like it'll be fun because now Pyroar isn't there to snipe it behind its substitute (sub users in general enjoy Pyroar being gone). However it'll probably miss having Pyroar as a teammate. Lanturn/Eelektross/most spdef pivots are going to have a lot more freedom not having to worry about eating Pyroar's attacks to the face as well. Basically everyone wins.

 

[Teddeh]

It's post-suspect but I wanna post my thoughts on the previous 2 suspects because I've not been the most vocal in PU of recent.

If I am being totally transparent, I don't think either were broken pokemon in their own right and if they were the only threats in the tier - then i would have definitely voted no ban, heck i would have even veto'd the suspect test in the first place. But I'll explain my stance on the metagame and PU as a whole - which could give you the reasoning and justification as to why I did vote ban on both.
PU is an absolute clusterfuck of threats, it's not even remotely funny. Getting a check for every breaker that exists in PU is impossible. Simply put - we don't have enough defensive pokemon to check everything and with z-moves and a total saturation of great breakers - team building was not fun and the meta became very rigid and confined with what you could use. With pokemon like ferroseed / gastrodon / miltank / palossand all leaving - it's left the meta in a very hard balance of finding glue pokemon for defensive archetypes and hence making every ladder match or game i've played a tale of match up. This made the tier very imbalanced and generally not fun - so hence my reasoning for the bans. They were very limiting on team building - forcing rigid archetypes and hence halted the tier's development.

What i'm hoping for is a few defensive pokemon in the tier shifts (have been for a long time) and to allow the tier some flexibility in what we can use without being limited to "who has the better match up".

 

[MZ]

Sandslash has quick-shifted back to PU

 

[PTF]

A mon I find very problematic for the current meta is Banded Aggron.

Banded Aggron is a powerhouse at wallbreaking due to its pure strength and natural bulk that allows it to switch into weaker physical attacks and/or passive mons. The combination of banded Head Smash and Heavy Slam means that Aggron can 2HKO almost the entire meta bar Mudsdale, Poliwrath and niches like Wormadam Trash. Players who use Aggron have less need for prediction if the opposing team lack the aforementioned Aggron counters and they can continue to spam STAB banded Head Smash and severely break a team.

Aggron severely restricts teambuilding where the only viable option to checking it is to run Poliwrath or Mudsdale. Otherwise, one must either double switch, bop a mon to revenge kill it with a faster one or scout the move with Protect and then switch accordingly.

The drawbacks of Aggron is its poor speed, susceptibility to status and the fact that it has to rely on a choice item and a wrong move results in a momentum drain.

However, despite those drawbacks, I still believe this mon is oberbearing for this meta.

As Teddeh has aforementioned, the PU meta does not have enough defensive Pokemon to deal with the oversupply of great wallbreakers. I agree with his sentiment but I don't think we should wait for drops when the drops could possibly not eventuate at all.

With mons like Aggron and Aurorus running around, I do feel that the current state of the meta is imbalanced and teambuilding is very restricted by the fact that we need niche checks to the two previously mentioned mons.

TL;DR I do not consider Aggron broken, just very overbearing for this tier and teambuilding.

 

[yogi]

A mon I find very problematic for the current meta is Banded Aggron.

Banded Aggron is a powerhouse at wallbreaking due to its pure strength and natural bulk that allows it to switch into weaker physical attacks and/or passive mons. The combination of banded Head Smash and Heavy Slam means that Aggron can 2HKO almost the entire meta bar Mudsdale, Poliwrath and niches like Wormadam Trash. Players who use Aggron have less need for prediction if the opposing team lack the aforementioned Aggron counters and they can continue to spam STAB banded Head Smash and severely break a team.

Aggron severely restricts teambuilding where the only viable option to checking it is to run Poliwrath or Mudsdale. Otherwise, one must either double switch, bop a mon to revenge kill it with a faster one or scout the move with Protect and then switch accordingly.

The drawbacks of Aggron is its poor speed, susceptibility to status and the fact that it has to rely on a choice item and a wrong move results in a momentum drain.

However, despite those drawbacks, I still believe this mon is oberbearing for this meta.

As Teddeh has aforementioned, the PU meta does not have enough defensive Pokemon to deal with the oversupply of great wallbreakers. I agree with his sentiment but I don't think we should wait for drops when the drops could possibly not eventuate at all.

With mons like Aggron and Aurorus running around, I do feel that the current state of the meta is imbalanced and teambuilding is very restricted by the fact that we need niche checks to the two previously mentioned mons.

TL;DR I do not consider Aggron broken, just very overbearing for this tier and teambuilding.

If you had said this about a month ago, I'd have been inclined to believe you. However, with the way the meta is currently, I don't quite think I'm on board for any bans. Over the past month the meta has developed and has been shaped rather rapidly, especially with two back-to-back suspect tests taking place; one thing that has happened is the tier has shifted to dealing with Rock-types far more.

There's absolutely no denying that both Lycanroc and Aggron, and even Aurorus too, have had a substantial impact on the meta. However, unlike with Pyroar and Kingler, it has been able to adapt to the point that you're not relying on very niche checks or only semi-checks that always lose to another set, like Regirock or Lanturn, which lost to Grassium Z Pyroar. No, you actually have viable Pokemon like Gurdurr, Mudsdale, Poliwrath that are almost always able to deal with whatever Lycanroc and Aggron can throw at them. While I do realise both Poliwrath and Mudsdale are rather new additions to the higher ranks this is fine as it's the meta adapting to new threats, which is something it has struggled to do with all the previous suspect tests. Pokemon like Lanturn and Hitmonchan are running more speed to creep Jolly Aggron, Regirock runs either Earthquake or Drain Punch, Mesprit can run Hidden Power Ground, etc. to deal with it. The meta is also far more offensive than it previously was, with Pokemon that previously gave it a free switch in, like Clefairy, seeing a big decrease in usage. Yes Aggron, and Lycanroc because I'm lumping that with Aggron due to similar offensive prowess, are still extremely good Pokemon but right now they're definitely not broken.

Quickly addressing Aurorus, I think a shift to a more offensive meta has both helped it but also hindered it. The introduction of two fantastic Spikes setter into the tier is a double-edged sword as now it has two Pokemon that can cripple it or even bop it with Destiny Bond. You also have some Pokemon like Assault Vest Crabominable and Alolan Sandslash which give it a harder time too; you also never want to give opposing Alolan Sandslash a free Slush Rush. Loads of the top tier Pokemon threaten it right now it basically runs on the principle that giving it a free switch-in will result in you either losing a decent amount of momentum or potentially losing a Pokemon, but the same could be said of things like Drampa too. With the addition of Stealth Rock and Spikes to the mix, along with a plethora of viable offensive checks like Hitmonchan and Togedemaru, I don't think Aurorus is broken either. It's just another really good wallbreaker.

 

[Ktütverde]

About the aggron issue, my opinion on it is that it is actually overwhelming for most teams, and I heavily disagree with stuff like defensive speed invested Hp ground mesprit: if you can't build a team without resorting to such techs it means aggron is too centralizing. Hp ground is a poor choice, not using healing wish makes no sense, unless aggron is actually broken.

I think that the belief of aggron being broken because it destroys balance is wrong: even without aggron in the tier, poliwrath would still be a highly viable pick in balance because of how this playstyle gets 6-0d by omastar and sandslash alola. Mudsdale is perfectly fine as a glue to deal with togedemaru, primeape, skuntank, regirock etc, and EQ+toxic+huge bulk is enough to weaken opposing offenses very effectively. Stall teams (ok fuck stall kids) also handle aggron very well, via protect which ppstalls headsmash, headsmash misses (missing one vs stall can render aggron useless very often, say vs pyukumuku which will spam recover, or vs regirock/tangela which will be able to force aggron out and recover health).

So here is the truth IMO: aggron is a huge, huge threat for offense and BO. 1st reason: defensive mesprit and skuntank become a liability when ur oppo is using aggron. I wouldn't even imagine using both without hpground atm. 2nd reason: nothing in offense switches on aggron, unlike aurorus which is checked by togedemaru, lanturn, and hitmonchan. Gurdurr takes a ton from heavyslam band, and cant do much in return (knock a mesprit at best). When gurdurr is supposed to be a tank+wincondition, forcing it to switch on band aggron is too much and it ends up being misused.

If this isnt enough, I could add that aggron forces oricorios to run double stab, forces aggron to run EQ (aggron vs aggron obv). But seeing my boys mesprit, skunk, spiritomb, scyther, drampa, and eelektross being liabilities more often than not due to being too slow or their inability to threaten aggron without niche coverage makes me say that aggron is probably broken in PU.


PS: I've been a huge aggron fan since my day1 in PU, it has always been threatening, but wasnt used because we had faster powerhouses (kingler...). Getting rid of 1 or 2 threats isnt making PU better, since you can just replace the banned mon, and the truth is that the faster wallbreaker is usually spammed, so we aren't dealing with many broken mons simultaneously, we're just dealing with the best one of the moment and that's already a pain. Looking forward to reading more posts on this, but my stance atm is more shifted towards aggron ban, since i dont think we have another mon able to replace it due to how it compresses wallbreaking power and defensive utility. Can't we just have a tier where topthreats would be primeape, floatzel or stoutland? Why do we keep having metas where everyone spams the same mon with a sky-high offensive stat or wallbreaking power...

 

[EviGaro]

I'm not really sure where the problem is, though...? Being a wallbreaker with inherent defensive value is not bad by itself, it's something that can be seen virtually in every tier, but even so I feel like you severely overestimate Aggron's defensive value, because as a steel type, offensive Aggron is actually incredibly underwhelming and can lose to almost any mon that is relatively high on the VR when coming in. Even defensive no investment Mesprit does 30 with Psychic... one spike means Aggron can't come in twice without dying. HP Ground is a quicker option, also good against Skuntank fwiw, but it's not a necessity. Drampa / Eel / Spiritomb aren't liabilities automatically because of Aggron when Aggron seriously fears coming in on them because of their special stab or the burn chance. Speed being a problem is a lot more than just because of Aggron when Aggron itself can suffer from speed issues. Brick Break on Scyther is not even the worst idea though, stop Aurorus / Iceslash from being super annoying to it. Stabs on Oricorios are good because Hurricane is not good and they have a lot of value regardless. Idk I just don't see Aggron as being the root cause for those issues when most of them are following the direction the tier is going in, and Aggron itself suffers from those issues.

And yeah, while it's true that CB Aggron has few defensive counterplay, it's very much still there. Rock resists are at a premium as it is, and speed demands are making Aggron go away from Adamant, making its coverage slightly less threatening. While that's reasonably shaky I suppose, I do think that Aggron's issues with coming in and the fact that it can't just spam attacks consistently over the course of a game, coupled with some of the very good rock resists we have in this tier allow for enough counterplay to be found. And really, I don't think you can reasonably argue "Aggron can switch" when the reason you imply Aurorus is fine is because "there's those three mons" when Aurorus can also switch and hugely benefits from stuff only just creeping Aggron but....

And while having Floatzel and Stoutland as top threats again sounds funny, the sheer amount of banning you'd have to make before that actually happen is just way too much. For better or worse, USUM in general is a far more offensive metagame, something that is visible in every tier in contrast to the balance happy oras, it's not just in PU where this shift can be seen, and trying to go back to that is about impossible without putting all the tiers into constant change, which is 1 - gonna piss off a lot of people, both more casuals and tour players alike, and 2 - still be largely at the mercy of tier shifts inevitably adding more nonsense. Trying to sort through that sounds like a total nightmare for about everyone, and while there are steps you can make in taking out obviously unhealthy elements, there has to be, imo, a general acceptance of how a gen is and ability to allow players to find their own counterplay to how the meta is.

 

[Ktütverde]

I'm not really sure where the problem is, though...? Being a wallbreaker with inherent defensive value is not bad by itself, it's something that can be seen virtually in every tier, but even so I feel like you severely overestimate Aggron's defensive value, because as a steel type, offensive Aggron is actually incredibly underwhelming and can lose to almost any mon that is relatively high on the VR when coming in. Even defensive no investment Mesprit does 30 with Psychic... one spike means Aggron can't come in twice without dying. HP Ground is a quicker option, also good against Skuntank fwiw, but it's not a necessity. Drampa / Eel / Spiritomb aren't liabilities automatically because of Aggron when Aggron seriously fears coming in on them because of their special stab or the burn chance. Speed being a problem is a lot more than just because of Aggron when Aggron itself can suffer from speed issues. Brick Break on Scyther is not even the worst idea though, stop Aurorus / Iceslash from being super annoying to it. Stabs on Oricorios are good because Hurricane is not good and they have a lot of value regardless. Idk I just don't see Aggron as being the root cause for those issues when most of them are following the direction the tier is going in, and Aggron itself suffers from those issues.

And yeah, while it's true that CB Aggron has few defensive counterplay, it's very much still there. Rock resists are at a premium as it is, and speed demands are making Aggron go away from Adamant, making its coverage slightly less threatening. While that's reasonably shaky I suppose, I do think that Aggron's issues with coming in and the fact that it can't just spam attacks consistently over the course of a game, coupled with some of the very good rock resists we have in this tier allow for enough counterplay to be found. And really, I don't think you can reasonably argue "Aggron can switch" when the reason you imply Aurorus is fine is because "there's those three mons" when Aurorus can also switch and hugely benefits from stuff only just creeping Aggron but....

And while having Floatzel and Stoutland as top threats again sounds funny, the sheer amount of banning you'd have to make before that actually happen is just way too much. For better or worse, USUM in general is a far more offensive metagame, something that is visible in every tier in contrast to the balance happy oras, it's not just in PU where this shift can be seen, and trying to go back to that is about impossible without putting all the tiers into constant change, which is 1 - gonna piss off a lot of people, both more casuals and tour players alike, and 2 - still be largely at the mercy of tier shifts inevitably adding more nonsense. Trying to sort through that sounds like a total nightmare for about everyone, and while there are steps you can make in taking out obviously unhealthy elements, there has to be, imo, a general acceptance of how a gen is and ability to allow players to find their own counterplay to how the meta is.

Hey, I guess you forgot to click "post reply" since this is answering my post, but I got your points. First of all, I just wanted to say as much as possible about aggron, I'm not asking the council to ban it or anything, I wanted to objectively describe it (my objectivity being subjectivity for you obv, by objectivity I mean not saying "aggron is perfectly fine" only because I'm lazy and use it as my main breaker in every team).

-I agree with brick break scyther being alright even without aggron in the tier (hits aurorus, snowslash, togedemaru...)
-I disagree with jolly aggron being less threatening, the loss in power isnt very noticeable: it only really matters vs drain punch regirock imo

ada/jolly band aggron calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 157-186 (47 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 144-169 (43.1 - 50.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 204-240 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 186-219 (49.7 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 202-238 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 184-217 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Regirock: 171-202 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Regirock: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 46.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

everything else is basically OHKOd or takes ~80% like weezing on headsmash so it doesnt matter

-aggron being slow isnt an issue due to its great defense and steel type. Furthermore, being jolly means it outspeeds aurorus (unless aurorus runs timid and fails to 2hko clefairy), making it much more threatening and able to RK aurorus. One could think being slow means it will be revenge killed easily, but in practice it is a nightmare to get rid of it, you are forced to play super aggressively vs the voltturn partners which try to bring aggron in: send skuntank on a uturn mesprit and u will lose one mon on the aggron headsmash/heavyslam. Send togedemaru at the wrong moment, same result. With aurorus or drampa, things are easy, you always have a mon resisting their stabs and able to ko it (hitmonchan, clefairy, Z sensu, togedemaru etc). Aggron can just stay in vs gurdurr since machpunch does mediocre damage, kangaskhan cant hit it hard enough, oricorios fail to actually threaten it without +1, froslass must be sacked to get a burn on aggron, primeape is forced to cc unless u really have balls (most primeapes either have balls tbh or are stupid idk), etc. It's just that aggron can avoid ohkos from most mons, which means they are all forced to switch and you end up losing 1,2, 3 mons because you arent able to have it in KO range, which is super easy to do vs all the other breakers. Leftovers aggron is even tougher to take down and remains very threatening vs offensive playstyles.

-Lastly, I didn't mean "i want oras Pu back", I just want to see perfectly fine breakers like lilligant, stoutland, kangaskhan, being used more. It's already happening, all are picking up usage. I dont' know how will aggron fare in this meta, but I wouldn't enjoy seeing aggron being a pseudo-kingler/pyroar and used as the go-to wallbreaker/tank in every team. For the moment I just know I have to run hpground mesprits and special skunks, 124 speed chans and revelation dance oricorios, and it's annoying since I do it solely for aggron.

Thanks for answering anyway, feel free to prove me wrong or evoke other points about aggron (not evigaro, all of you)!

edit: lets not say "mudsdale / gurdurr offense is the new wave!", while both mons are cool (and gurdurr being actually great), they are by no means self-sufficient like togedemaru and hitmonchan, so we aren't going to innovate by putting one of these two mons in every team, since they require certain cores to work correctly, unlike hitmonchan and scarf toge that can be used almost everywhere and check aurorus and other stuff very nicely. Checking aggron with a low opportunity cost isnt going to be an easy task, and should be an easy task if it is a toptier threat. Using hp ground on defensive mesprit already has a very high opportunity cost

 

[Lost Soul]

This isn’t directed at anyone in particular, just thought I would drop by, leave my thoughts on Aggron while I have the time. Little background first and fair warning. If I say anything that doesn’t fit or sound right, I apologize in advance, I’ve only been back into competitive mons for around three weeks now. At the risk of sounding old, my last competitive stint was from 2006 to 2014 at which point college took over. Although I have still been popping into the forum off and on in the meantime. Anyhow with that aside, my thoughts on Aggron. I do not believe Aggron is worthy of a ban currently. Although powerful, there are too many other factors surrounding Aggron for it to reach that level where it would be warranted. I’m not sure how many of you were around during the Gen 4 DPP OU meta. It may sound completely unrelated, but I would like to use Salamence as an example. During DPP, Mence was able to effectively run a variety of sets, Spec’s, Band, Scarf, Mix and DD. Any one of those sets had its counters and checks, however the problem was you never knew which set that Mence was running. The counters and checks that could stop one Mence set in its tracks where completely and destroyed by the other set. This is where I believe Pyroar and its suspect test is relatable to this. Pyroar was able to run many different sets effectively, sets that even dealt with its checks/counters. You could prepare for one set and be fine, but if it was running the other set then you’d be in trouble. Aggron on the other hand to me at least, does not have the speed, the move set variety or the meta defining power that Pyroar had. It doesn't cause the same dilemma in team building that Pyroar and its variety of sets caused as even stuff like Lanturn was being taken down.

Don’t get me wrong, Aggron is good, but I don’t think it’s quite at the level of being unhealthy or broken for the meta at this point in time. I’ve played a bit with it myself and tried it out, it hits like a truck, but a lot of things are creeping it on speed and it is very susceptible to status conditions because of its speed. It is unlikely to singlehandedly win you games by itself alone. The other thing is the current meta is saturated with tons of mons that have very high usage that hurt or hinder Aggron’s ability to do what it wants to do without being at risk itself. However, I do feel and believe that this meta will need some more time to settle before we will really know the true impacts of both Kingler and Pyroar leaving the meta. The meta is currently influx and there isn’t a real clear picture yet, we still need to see what form or shape this meta will take in the end. Once we get a better grasp and understanding of where the meta is heading then we can really see if anything is really overpowering the meta or unhealthy to it, but so soon after two suspect tests, it is just too early to make any final decisions.

 

[MZ]

Ninetales moved from PU to RU
Quagsire moved from NU to PU
Dodrio moved from NU to PU
Jellicent moved from NU to PU
Kingler moved from PUBL to NU

I've deleted the posts working off the old stats, Antar had to fix the update. This should be the correct, final shift based on the stats presented here.