Metagame np: USUM PU Stage 4- Spikes [Kingler Banned]

Megazard

Smash Ultimate main
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PU Leader
#1

Huge losses and gains this month make for some massive shifts to the PU metagame. As expected, we lost Ferroseed, Gastrodon, Stoutland, and Sandslash, as well Torterra for some reason, possibly also due to the increases in sand. The odds of getting Stoutland and Sandslash back in a quick drop or next tier shift remain high. Meanwhile, PU has seen the introduction of Omastar, Aromatisse, and Froslass, as well as Qwilfish, Scyther, and Altaria returning after their NU stints. Lots of spikes :psyduck: We understand that several of the new introductions may look extremely powerful, and you should expect a council vote on the drops sometime during week. Feel free to use this thread to discuss all things PU meta related, in particular if you have strong opinions on the drops before the council vote happens. That's all, enjoy this brand new tier! :blobthumbsup:

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#3
With the loss of Gastrodon and Ferro Torterra and Sandslash, leaving us with bad ground types, electric types got a bit better with a lack of answers, and in turn, Lanturn. This mon is so good now with momentum and the threat of heavily damaging manectric and togedemaru if they switch in (except in the case of opposing Lanturn) and with Scyther back, volt turn is a good archetype to run in this metagame. Spikes are fun now with two more settings in froslass and returning qwilfish, the former being a fast attacker with usable dual stab in this meta and utility moves in WoW and taunt. I personally think Aromatisse will be banned soon and Omastar is an offensive juggernaut, but there are sufficient countermeasures for it.
 
#4
I Think that Froslass could be a nice pokemon, his versatility is nothing to laught at, i would see her as a great partner for aboma thanks to the accuracy boost on blizzard by tha hail, she could also bee an hazard setter or a rapid spinner, for the matchups i see her doing well with common pokemon like mesprit, hitmonchan and others
 
#5

Aroma is going to be good in this tier. In addition to being a very reliable dark and fighting check, it makes a great TR sweeper. At +2 SpAtk, it just destroys mons. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it got tested or quickbanned. It does lose to CB Aggron tho and Dugtrio-A 2HKOs it. It'd be a race for defogging Skunk to beat this since it'd be a 2HKO on either side. Togedemaru 2HKOs it if rocks are out. In any case, Aroma will be a great addition to the tier; whether it be cleric or Trick Room!


Scyther is going to be nice as well. It's sad that it just loses to rocks being up. Having a spinner or defogger on the team is a must here. This thing hits hard if it can get off an SD. At +2 and if running Technician-boosted Bug Bite, it 2HKOs Defensive Mesprit.
+2 8 Atk Technician Scyther Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 300-354 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mesprit will indeed have problems with Scyther being here. Regardless of the variant. Scyther can also beat Skunk too! An unboosted U-turn does 39% max. If rocks are up on Skunk's side, +2 Aerial Ace has a 3 in 4 chance to OHKO it!
+2 8 Atk Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 294-346 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Scyther has many opportunities in this tier. Let's put him to good use.


BIG GAIN FOR PU! Omastar just adds to our Shell Smashers (Crustle, Turtonator, Carracosta, etc). It can serve as a hazard stacker w/Stealth Rock and Spikes. There are very few mons that'll be able to take this thing down once it sets up. Scarf Ape can OHKO it since it outspeeds Modest Omastar after 1 Shell Smash. Along with fellow drop Aromatisse, it is indeed test worthy or quick-ban worthy.


Froslass provides the tier with a good spikes mon. It's probably going to be used mostly as a suicide lead for spikes. I personally don't see any other use for it. It has a bad combination of Ice/Ghost which makes it prone to Knock Off users and rocks and Sucker Punch.
 
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yogi

Untamed, guess I lost my mind
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#6
I'm just going to quickly address all the drops that we have received recently, but I'll almost certainly cover how the rises have/will affect us once the meta has developed more:


I think most people already know my stance on this Pokemon, but it's certainly a similar one to the one I had when Hariyama was in the tier. The issue is, it has a very healthy defensive set for more stall- and balance-based archetypes with not being susceptible to Taunt and essentially being an alternative, or even better, Audino, thanks to an arguably more useful typing; although no Regenerator can be a pain. It'd even help versus things like Bulky Oricorio Sensu, which quite literally eats stall alive. However, it also has what is arguably one of the most broken sets to ever "grace" PU, which is its Nasty Plot + Z move + Trick Room set. As previously stated Aromatisse is unable to be Taunted, and alongside decent bulk and the limited Steel-types in the tier, means that it has very little trouble in being able to set-up and sweep, or at least break down the opposing team at the very least. If this thing stays in the tier, not only will it see far more unused Pokemon that don't really have a niche (and shouldn't have one) being used, but it'll also degenerate into what happened in NU with Cofagrigus, which will be people purposely lowering the level of their Aromatisse to stand a better chance against opposing ones. This Pokemon needs to be banned as soon as possible.


Now I'm not sure what my stance on Omastar actually is, because I do agree that some builds are pressured too much by its Shell Smash set, especially if they get the Weak Armour proc. However, unlike with Aromatisse, I don't really think that Omastar is unhealthy; quite the contrary, I think all of its sets are actually a healthy enough addition to our metagame. The offensive set isn't as bad as people are making it out to be, especially with a decent amount of checks available. It isn't actually too fast even at +2, with Pokemon like Choice Scarf Lilligant, Togedemaru, Primeape, Pyroar (which will be on the rise as of the most recent shifts), etc. all being able to revenge kill Omastar. Even Pokemon such as Gurdurr and Hitmonchan put decent enough pressure on it with Mach Punch. I do see the argument for the offensive set being potentially overbearing, as almost all of the tier falls to a +2 Hydro Vortex, even specially defensive tanks like Assault Vest Hitmonchan, but I don't think that it'll be nearly as bad as what Aromatisse will do to the tier. My stance on the defensive set is that it's actually a fun and decent check to Normal- and Flying-types, with good utility choices and a way to beat the other soon-to-be common Spike setter, Qwilfish, in Earth Power.


The other Water-type that dropped, and what is arguably going to be the most talked about and prominent (healthy) drop. Qwilfish made a big splash when it was first introduced after PU Beta, and helped to shape a large portion of the then-current metagame. Even though I wasn't the biggest fan of Qwilfish, it will certainly shake up PU far more compared to what was becoming a stale meta populated by Ferroclef + fillers. Qwilfish will finally breathe life into more offensive teams with its fantastic utility and a great typing, alongside the coveted Spikes. Qwilfish will also benefit other archetypes, especially balance, with the previously mentioned utility. I think, more importantly, is the fact that Qwilfish acts as a Kingler check, which is basically invaluable in a meta that has lost both Gastrodon and Ferroseed, even if the former was only a soft check. My only gripe with Qwilfish is that it does encourage rather lazy building in some cases, same as with FerroClef did, but I'm certain that it'll shake up the metagame nonetheless and encourage more offensive archetypes to make a comeback since both Archeops and Magmortar got banned.



Altaria is certainly a welcome return to PU, with it leaving at a bad time for us, especially when it was during the "reign of Magmortar", but it returning will only help bolster both stall- and balance-archetypes. We've been at a loss for hazard removal, especially more reliable Defoggers, but Altaria dropping changes that. Several utility options alongside both reliable recovery in Roost and a decent enough defensive typing will help against the Spikes filled meta. However, Altaria currently loses to all three of the new Spikes setters unless it runs a move like Dragon Pulse, which might be more common since it only required Flamethrower for Ferroseed. I don't have much else to say about Altaria, but I'm happy NU has stopped using it post Emboar ban, since it was virtually useless.


I've been hearing rumblings about this Pokemon being "broken", but I really don't see it at all. Yes it does have a fantastic speed tier and a reasonable offensive typing, along with a great utility movepool, but I actually think it's a breath of fresh air for PU. It gives offensive teams an out to almost every form of hazard removal and also the ability to trade against a myriad of offensive and defensive threats with Taunt + Destiny Bond. I actually like how stupidly customisable Froslass actually is, with Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, Spikes, Destiny Bond, Thunder Wave, Disable, and Trick all being viable options on a variety of different sets. Not only do I think offensive Spikes sets will be popular, but I also believe both Choice Specs and Choice Scarf sets could see usage, similar to how Haunter functions. Just because a Pokemon offers a vast amount of support options doesn't inherently make it broken, although maybe I'll be proved wrong.


The final Pokemon that dropped, Scyther is by far the coolest. It was seen as dumb and broken back when it was previously PU back in early Alpha, but right now that's far from the case. With several viable sets and a great speed tier, Scyther will once again shine as a top threat in the PU meta. The most interesting set is certainly the Bulky Swords Dance set, especially with Eviolite + great bulk, alongside Roost making it rather hard to deal with outside of super-effective hits. It is able to set up on a load of defensive and offensive Pokemon, like Qwilfish lacking Thunder Wave, Skuntank, Hitmonchan, Kangaskhan, etc. without the worry of them being able to dent it enough, outside of a critical hit or a potential Defence drop from Skuntank's Crunch. The other main set that will definitely see use is the Choice Scarf variant. Being faster than most of the common Choice Scarf users, like Swanna, Togedemaru, and Primeape will certainly see Scyther shine. Again, another interesting addition to the meta.

I know I wasn't too in-depth with each description, but I just wanted to give my opinion on each drop. Cya all.

Edit: Apparently Quagsire dropped so...


Quagsire is a god-send for stall. The loss of Quagsire forced everyone to fall back on Pyukumuku which, while not a bad Pokemon in any rights, doesn't quite have the same usefulness as Quagsire does. Quagsire is far less passive and able to actually set-up with its Unaware Curse set versus threats like Alolan Dugtrio, without the fear of outright losing to Substitute. Even more balance-oriented teams can use Quagsire, unlike with Pyukumuku, as a useful check to extremely threatening Pokemon such as Aggron (which will certainly rise in usage now that both Gastrodon and Ferroseed have left). Even though I despise stall teams, I'm very excited to see how it functions on balance teams, especially with Gastrodon having left a hole in teambuilding.


[00:34] +Kris: people think quagsire should have dropped straight from RU to PU because it was PU before it became NU
[00:34] +Kris: however
[00:34] +Kris: the only time it was PU was in PU alpha, which does not count
:blobglare:
 
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quziel

I simulate Pottery
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#7
So, been trying out a few of the new drops; one thing that immediately hit me is how amazing rain is. There are incredibly few mons that can take on SD Qwilfish under rain, honestly, the only reason I am saying very few is because I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but the mon is absurdly strong, and with Taunt it legit does the hilarious thing called setting up in Weezing's face. The set I've been using is:


Qwilfish @ Waterium Z
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Poison Jab
- Aqua Tail
- Taunt

Its a strong asset for Rain, resisting one of the tier's more common priority moves (aka Hitmonchan's Mach Punch), and just hits disgustingly hard (random altaria for scale: +2 252+ Atk Qwilfish Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Altaria in Rain: 292-344 (82.7 - 97.4%) ). Aside from that I've been using the standard Rain core of Mesprit / Liepard / Ludicolo. Just seems like a very strong style in general tbh.
 
#8
250px-478Froslass.png


Froslass @ Never-Melt Ice / Icium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp / Thunder Wave
- Spikes
- Shadow Ball
- Ice Beam

Hello, this set can also work pretty well for Froslass.
Crippling incoming threats like Skuntank, physical Floatzel and one of the best fightings in the tier Primeape down is just good.
Since Ice Coverage hits almost everything decently well, I decided to go for a boosting Item in Never-melt-Ice or Icium Z.
Spikes is really good overall, so the 2nd Slot is Spikes, and Shadow Ball as the other STAB Option.
If you want you can also try Thunder Wave, slowing down opposing mons, with a higher speed tier or Scarfers.
 

allstarapology

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Moderator
#9
a decent amount of what i had to say regarding drops was already said by others, mainly yogi, so instead of posting my opinions about the newcomers, i wanted to post a few teams i made (aromatisse is probably gonna end up banned soon, so may as well) showcasing some of the new pokemon and close out with a few thoughts i had about what may come and a few of the pokemon that got better or worse. (s/o jklioe bc he was the person that got me to talk about this last part and i borrowed a few of his points to sort of generate discussion on the matter.)


Despite Mudsdale being the first Pokemon, I really made this to try out defensive Aromatisse, the less broken deadly of its two sets. Mudsdale just sorta ended up being put on as a powerful wallbreaker that could also set Stealth Rock, two things the team ended up needing by the end of the building, and as odd as it sounds, it actually isn't that bad. You set them up with ease as the opponent switches out with Pokemon like Scyther, or in with their Tangela or Weezing. Choice Scarf Scyther is very good speed control, outpacing the entire unboosted metagame as well as Choice Scarf Togedemaru and +1 Lilligant among other threats, on top of providing valuable U-turn support. Assault Vest Lanturn checks threats like Pyroar as well as slightly making up for the otherwise shaky Aurorus matchup by outspeeding it and 2HKOing it, and it completes a VoltTurn core. Next up, Aromatisse. I like Aromatisse so much in this slot for a couple of reasons: it's a really good Knock Off absorber, a terrific Fighting check, capable of sponging various non-super effective hits, and of course, provides that irreplaceable Wish + Heal Bell support to prevent the team from being worn down too quickly, which is especially nice when you're using a number of Pokemon that lack reliable recovery. The fact that it can do this without fearing Taunt and still boasting decent offensive presence is fantastic and why Aromatisse is so good, separating it from Audino by giving more offensive teams a reliable Wish passer. Special Skuntank gives the team a Defog user as well as a stallbreaker, Toxic Spikes absorber, and a secondary way of dealing with physically bulky Pokemon like Qwilfish and Weezing. I've toyed a bit with Hidden Power Fighting simply for Aurorus, though it's not really necessary. Finally, Gurdurr, the team's setup sweeper and pseudo-Normal check. The bulkier variant fits better here, as it gives the team an out for Kingler if it's healthy enough.



Altaria and Aromatisse dropping was a pretty big boon for stall, despite how pressured it can end up being by all the entry hazards going around, as stall now has access to a reliable Defog user + special wall in tandem with a great cleric that can absorb Knock Off, check Fighting-types reliably, and block Taunt and Encore (i think it blocks this too,). Specially defensive Articuno takes hits from even the biggest threats to bulkier teams like Aurorus, Lilligant, and bulky Oricorio-G, and its access to valuable support options in Haze, Heal Bell, and Defog are also noteworthy. Pressure adds onto the annoyance, since this potentially allows Articuno to stall out opposing defensive Pokemon like Weezing. Obviously, you're not going to use Articuno as your only Defog user because of that 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, which is where Altaria comes in. Altaria gives the team a secondary Defog user that can also sponge hits from threatening special attackers like Lilligant and Pyroar as well as spread status. Aromatisse is a solid Wish passer for reasons listed above and was chosen over Audino simply to see how it would fare. There have been some instances where I wish it was an Audino (not knowing whether to pass a Wish to yourself or a teammate + no Regen kinda blows), but it threatens Skuntank and Spiritomb more than Audino does, which is especially appreciated by the next member: Bronzor. Bronzor gives the team a Stealth Rock user that can also comfortably tank hits from Pokemon like Kangaskhan, Aggron, and Aurorus, which are massive threats to bulkier teams. Pyukumuku (was a Quagsire before it got moved back to NU ;-;) is necessary on stall because Unaware is such a good ability for stall teams to have to prevent Pokemon like Kingler from running loose, Poisonium Z is great for avoiding Taunt from foes like Skuntank once, Trick, and Knock Off. Finally, CroTomb is a very potent wincon for bulky teams as a whole that really appreciates Clefairy getting a little bit worse (as well as busted-ass Aromatisse being banned in the future.)



Finally, here's a more offensive team that showcases the main and more threatening Aromatisse set. Golem is a pretty good lead for offensive teams that's powerful, especially if you factor in potential Weakness Policy boosts, and can generate momentum instantly thanks to Explosion, or pick off weakened threats with Sucker Punch. Because of Sturdy, it can also be kept around to take one hit and retaliate with a stronger one, dealing with threats like Kingler. Next up is King Qwilfish. Is there really much to say about it? Annoying as hell, good Spikes setters, great utility options, does it all without being completely passive. OTR Aromatisse is a deadly sweeper / mid-game wallbreaker that takes advantage of the hazards wearing down its checks and counters, boosting its deceptively high Special Attack with Nasty Plot and outpacing damn near everything under Trick Room before blowing them away with +2 Twinkle Tackle. It's level 99 because how else do you deal with opposing Aromatisse. Spiritomb, despite Aromatisse dropping, is still a good spinblocker that provides priority as well as a way to wear down Weezing and opposing Qwilfish for Aromatisse on top of giving the team a secondary Taunt user. Hitmonchan spins, checks special attackers like Aurorus, Lilligant, and Pyroar, provides another form of priority, and appreciates Spiritomb trapping opposing Ghost-types with Pursuit. Finally, Choice Scarf Aurorus gives the team a better matchup against weather (which definitely got better with these shifts), is decent speed control, and summons hail, which adds onto the residual damage opposing teams take. Lilligant is a problem, though bulky Oricorio-G could be used over Spiritomb to circumvent this.

now for the closing thoughts. pretty much every playstyle got better, though the main one to take note of is offense. hazard stacking offense is definitely a lot better with not just qwilfish back, but two brand new spikes setters, as well as new threats to take advantage of the residual damage like scyther and aromatisse, as well as older threats like pyroar. there are some things you gotta keep in mind about the spikes users that make them so good: they oftentimes set spikes up reliably, are good at pressuring the most common forms of removal in one way or another, can do so much more for teams other than just get up hazards, and have solid utility / support options at their disposal. rain teams got better too, as qwilfish gives them a threatening setup sweeper that's capable of handling hitmonchan as well as other pokemon like gurdurr, and ferroseed being out of the picture only makes this more apparent, while omastar gives a deadly wallbreaker when equipped with choice specs as well as a setup sweeper, and both can also make use of spikes to wear down rain checks like lanturn and hitmonchan. stall got better too, as now it has a solid defog user back at its disposal on top of a durable wish passer that can also patch up other weaknesses bulkier teams have. though these teams don't appreciate how prominent hazards may become, (edit: an example of what i mean: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-777094823) it's still worth noting that they're better than they were before.

regirock, one of the best defensive users of entry hazards (especially with ferroseed gone) and possibly the greatest defensive user of stealth rock atm, got better, as it can stand up to scyther and froslass relatively well on top of having more breathing room without ferroseed and gastrodon to force it out. lanturn also got better, as assault vest variants can check omastar even at +2 on top of threatening qwilfish, altaria, and froslass, and momentum is always good in an offensively-geared metagame. pyroar's in a bit of a weird spot, as these two getting better and altaria being altaria sucks, though it does deal with froslass and scyther well on top of threatening omastar and qwilfish with hidden power grass and hyper voice, respectively. kingler is another interesting case, as although it did lose a defensive counter, the number of checks to it that fit on offense increased, and all the residual damage going around is a double-edged sword for it, though regirock picking up is good for it. finally, clefairy gets a bit worse bc it lost its best defensive partner and is pressured by most of the drops besides altaria due to them either setting up on it, taunting it, or simply breaking through (scyther). this meta looks fun af and i had fun building these teams, and i'm looking forward to seeing how things develop from here.

edit: ok literally all of these teams are invalidated lmao
 
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#10
The new drops look pretty interesting, so I'll go over a few I'm excited to see.

Altaria coming back is pretty cool, since it adds another Defog user to the table for Stall teams. Unfortunately, Omastar and Frosslass are dropping, which could hinder Altaria.

Froslass is gonna be cool to experiment with on HO, since it has access to Spikes, Will-O-Wisp, Destiny Bond, and some good offensive options.

Scyther is gonna be an insane pivot, and has several viable options at its disposal, including a Bulky set. Losing Ferroseed also benefits it immensely.

also sorry about the oneliner
 

Ktütverde

Always turning thoughts into things
is a Tiering Contributor
#11
About some drops...



This mon is kinda weird, because defensively speaking, it is quite bad, and isnt very strong so "forcing switches" is going to be hard. However, once it is on the field, you are going to struggle a lot. The most obvious set would be icebeam+taunt+spikes+dbond, so you get 1/2 layer of spikes and simply eliminate the pokemon trying to kill you (pyroar/hitmonchan/spiritomb/skuntank etc). Froslass won't be a threat lasting very long, but it is going to do its job quite incredibly in offense, or HO if this playstyle happens to become popular.
However it might lead to teambuilding issues: given that lass is sort of a suicide spiker, how to build around it so that the oppo can't spin or defog? Rocks mesprit, rocks regirock or rocks clefairy are too slow and can let silvallys and skunk defog quite easily.
Froslass @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Taunt
- Spikes
- Destiny Bond




A pokemon designed to be used in offense and to pressure offense. PU lacked fast/offensive fighting checks pre-shifts, and most players had to use a combination of two mons chosen among clefairy, spiritomb, oricorio sensu, swanna, weezing and mesprit in order to not get pressured too much by gurdurr/chan/ape. However, clefairy wasn't reliable at all vs those, while sensu and mesprit were pressured a lot by pursuit trappers. The addtition of scyther brings a fast, bulky wincondition able to counter gurdurr and chan even if rocks are UP with the bulky eviolite set.

152+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 138-164 (40.2 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This is quite fantastic because it means scyther can still beat chan and gurdurr even if you havent managed to defog before bringing it on the field.
Scyther @ Eviolite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- U-turn
- Aerial Ace
- Roost



Pre-shift mons that might be affected...



Scarf togedemaru is going to become even better than it was before. Able to check scyther quite easily by tanking uturns/aerial aces easily, punishing it with ironbarbs and 2hkoing with zingzap 99% of the time, I can imagine it as the go-to scarfer for mesprit offenses, which risk being weak to scyther if they use mesprit/chan/qwilfish or mesprit/gurdurr/lanturn cores. It also checks froslass very nicely by killing it before it can destiny bond. Besides, it could be used in balance as a soft ice check, froslass check (which can be a huge pain for slow, passive mons), but most importantly as an omastar check, which is impossible to handle with defensive mons not called pyukumuku.




This one is going to shine if people use scyther, mesprit or qwilfish as fighting checks. Scyther cant switchin because of stone edge, while mesprit doesnt appreciate the uturn but we are used to this aren't we. However, qwilfish's intimidate may be very dangerous for the qwilf user, since a defiant primeape is extremely hard to handle, so a mesprit+qwilf fighting resist core might not be a big problem for primeape. Omastar check too, and prevents aromatisse switching in because of gunk shot, cool mon then.



In my opinion, this one wont be used as an agility sweeper anymore. Many offense will pack a qwilfish, which walls agility kingler, and weakens it via rockyhelmet damage. The SD set will probably be better to break through qwilfish, but qwilf being faster means u risk being burnt by scald. SD is definitely the best choice to get rid of qwilfish and altaria without much trouble, but kingler will definitely not remain the go-to physical attacker it was pre-shifts, due to the new presence of scyther and qwilfish, the former being faster and offering a ton of defensive utility, while the latter will be a pain and prevent kingler from doig the cheese liquidation spam it did before the drops.
 
#12
Time to break my contribution drought with a fun post

Lycanroc @ Lycanium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Accelerock
- Drill Run

Aromatisse @ Aguav Berry / Fairium Z
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Nasty Plot
- Moonblast
- Trick Room
- Psychic

I knew Lycanroc was probably gonna get really good coming into this shift. The prospect of more spikes + more offensive meta in general, coupled with losing two of its hardest stops in Gastrodon and Ferroseed, my old favorite gets its time to shine. In addition, Scyther dropped by surprise which is very good for Lycanroc, as its a great offensive answer to any of its sets. Pairing it with Offensive Aromatisse forms a devastating offensive core that is quite difficult to deal with. Since most teams are using Gurdurr, Hitmonchan, Poliwrath, or Primeape in order to deal with Lycanroc, it puts those teams in an unfavorable position where if they kill the Lycanroc, then Aroma will come in and setup for free while eating up hits. This same concept can be applied to tons of potent fighting weak mons in the tier like Aurorus, Pyroar, Omastar, Aggron etc.

Really what this demonstrates is how much Aromatisse changes the tier, as it can not only check the fighting types that have dominated the tier but go a step further and make these mons liabilities. This would be a welcome change to the fighting dominated meta of the past few months, however lack of reliable counterplay in the form of strong priority or reliable fat Poisons + Steels makes Aromatisse an overbearing presence on the metagame.

Heres some POWERful offense i made utilizing this core.

Lycanroc @ Lycanium Z
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Accelerock
- Drill Run

Mesprit @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Psychic
- U-turn
- Healing Wish
- Stealth Rock

Qwilfish @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Spikes
- Explosion
- Taunt

Togedemaru @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Zing Zap
- U-turn
- Toxic

Froslass @ Choice Specs
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Spd / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
- Blizzard

Aromatisse @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Nasty Plot
- Moonblast
- Trick Room
- Psychic


Started with the core I already talked about. the Aromatisse set is pretty neat. Aguav Berry can be really useful for bringing Aroma back if the opponents counterplay is chip it enough that something with priority can revenge it. Psychic lets Aroma break through Weezings and Pjab Qwilfish easily as neither of them can kill Aroma from full so it can take its NP on the switch then TR up and ohko them. Lycanroc always loves hazard stack, so next i went with the old classic hazard stacking core of Defensive Mesprit + Qwilfish which provide so much utility to support my offensive threats. Fast Taunt + Spikes can fuck with anything fat or passive while Explosion can prevent spins and grab me guaranteed momentum. Mesprit does Mesprit things and Healing Wish can be particularly potent paired with Aromatisse. Next i just threw on Togedemaru to act as my Lilligant check and Aromatisse "check" while also providing more general momentum with Uturn. Last mon I added was Specs Froslass just cause I needed a spin blocker and I justed wanted to try something cute. its not necessarily the most optimal set, but it has some fantastic surprise factor and it just does what it needs to do well by pressuring Weezing and deterring spin.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-777832769
Opponent obviously isnt using the most optimal of builds, but I thought it was a great example of how Aguav Berry lets Aromatisse setup on passive shit like Defensive Mesprit in particular much more safely while also showing how great Healing Wish is paired with it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-777833530
Tisse punishing Gurdurr
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-777841722
Froslass weakens Weezing for clean Aromatisse sweep.
 
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Darkinium

the mighty nuaguunibi
is a Pre-Contributor
#14
Most posts so far have focused on our new PU members, but I think there are definitely a handful of Pokemon that I noticed have benefited considerably from our rises and drops. Let's dive right in! (pun intended, realized when I was done that 3/4 of these Pokemon happened to be Water-types so I couldn't resist...):

This bad boy is a real big winner from our shifts; 2 outstanding answers in Ferroseed and Gastrodon have vanished, leaving Lanturn a free slot on its AV and Choice Specs sets. I'm going to guess the most consistent fourth slot is going to be a secondary Electric-type STAB, Thunderbolt or Discharge, or secondary Water-type STAB, mainly Scald, but perhaps also Surf. Dazzling Gleam is a way for Choice Specs to annoy CroTomb without Hydro Pump PP dropping to Pressure, but has little use elsewhere, at least in fields that Hydro Pump or Ice Beam doesn't already suffice. Another bizarre, situational, but hilarious option is Sucker Punch, which I know GenZeon has put to the test. It's definitely going to be a lot better on AV than on Choice Specs for obvious reasons, but likely won't be a mainstream option for either.

Although 3 other shifts are also in Lanturn's favour (being a Qwilfish and Omastar check, and Stoutland leaving), another shift is definitely going to shake up Lanturn's game a lot more: Scyther. For those who don't know, Scyther + Lanturn was a powerful VoltTurn core in Alpha and Beta which had great offensive and defensive synergy. Definitely expecting to see that core around, as well as VoltTurn teams overall.


Just like Lanturn, Ferroseed and Gastrodon's departure did it a great deal, making all of its sets, special, physical, and BU, a lot more viable. This also leaves open slots over Fighting- and Grass-type coverage for otherwise hard-to-fit moves such as Aqua Jet. Qwilfish might seem problematic until you realized Hydro Pump rips out a good chunk of its health and BU sets shut it down with Substitute or Taunt. Its stellar speed tier is also a lot more valuable with Scyther and Froslass roaming around, so maybe its speed will be more than an Archeops meta relic now.


Like the others, Kingler likes Gastrodon and Ferroseed leaving, allowing it to drop Superpower for Swords Dance. However, Altaria and Qwilfish's arrival is going to be interesting. Kingler can break both with SD + Knock Off (which looks to be its best set now), but it can also opt for other options, namely Substitute and Ice Beam, which offer other perks such as dodging status, Sucker Punch, or threatening bulky Grass-types such as Tangela. Unfortunately, Substitute can't be used to play around Altaria like it used to compared to earlier metas where Altaria had to use Flamethrower for Ferroseed; it has also lost another target in Ferroseed itself, who wouldn't be able to break a Sub with Gyro Ball.


By now I think you've probably noticed a pattern of which things Lycanroc appreciates rising, so I'll let you fill in the blanks yourself. Anyhow, with surefire defensive answers being mostly limited to Poliwrath and Gurdurr, this thing will be a lot harder to switch into for many teams now. SD sets can help out teams seeking an offensive Scyther and Froslass check, whereas Suicide Lead sets have the upper hand against Omastar and Froslass leads; the latter is especially notable as it's difficult to outspeed and Taunt otherwise, usually allowing Froslass to Taunt slower opponents and set up Spikes.

Anyways, hope this post has sparked interest in PU mainstays and not just drops. New Pokemon are always cool, but don't sleep on the OGs!
 
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#15
Froslass is the coolest mon (no pun intended). It acts as a Spikes setter and spinblocker in one slot which automatically makes it something to consider on many teams. Furthermore, it has great dual STAB coverage and a great speed tier (outspeeding Scyther!) making it a decent offensive pokemon in its own right, despite its mediocre base 80 Special Attack.

Most people are using Froslass as a suicide lead or with Choice Specs, but out of the sets I've tried personally I like non-choiced Offensive the best. This way you get to take advantage of Froslass's unique support options while still functioning as a threatening Special Attacker. If they have a check you can usually predict and set Spikes on the switch, while options like Destiny Bond and Will-O-Wisp helps you threaten physical attackers, especially Sucker Punch users.

dibs also put me on the idea of Fat Froslass, taking advantage of its speed and interesting defensive typing to act as a sort of bulky spinblocker and stallbreaker in one slot. You can probably run more bulk or more Speed depending on what you want but this spread is to outspeed non-Choiced Primeape. Fat Lass lacks in immediate power but can be surprisingly annoying to many builds.

Froslass @ Life Orb / Icium Z
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Destiny Bond / Taunt / Will-O-Wisp
Froslass @ Leftovers / Colbur Berry
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Ice Beam
- Hex / Pain Split / Spikes

On the topic of the other drops:
- Scyther is a very good pokemon, though it's not as overwhelming as I thought it would be. Choice Scarf and Choice Band sets are threats vs offense but don't really last for a long time and are even more vulnerable to Stealth Rock. Bulky Swords Dance is probably Scyther's most consistent set though we still have plenty of checks, such as Regirock, Aurorus, Togedemaru, Pom Pom, Omastar and it doesn't fit too well on what is probably the best playstyle right now (hazards stack offense) due to its preference for hazards to be off the field.

- Omastar is great as well. I don't think the Shell Smash set is any more broken than Carracosta's set for example. It is still outsped by the two fastest Scarf pokemon in the tier, vulnerable to Mach Punch and doesn't set up all that easily. However I like it better than Carracosta because of its abilities to threaten teams mid-game due to its decent wallbreaking abilities and moderate Speed, which is even faster with Weak Armor. I think hazard stacking sets might actually be the most common because of its access to both Stealth Rock and Spikes (unlike Qwilfish) and Weak Armor, which is always great for a hazard stacking pokemon. It can probably run very defensive EVs and Rocky Helmet as well to check plenty of physical attackers like Scyther and Skuntank.

- Qwilfish still does Qwilfish things, fits on a lot of teams and sets up Spikes easily. It may not become as dominant as it was in previous metas, but it will still undoubtedly be a very important mon for offensive teams. I want to highlight that Qwilfish is not only constrained to running defensive Spikes sets, because it has a very decent Attack and great STAB combination. Furthermore, Gastrodon and Ferroseed are no longer there to wall sets like offensive Z-move or even Choice Scarf and Choice Band. Like quziel said, it helps rain teams get a lot better because not only does it function as an extra sweeper, it absorbs Toxic Spikes and takes on Mach Punch as well.

- Altaria still checks a very decent amount of pokemon and an extra hazard remover is always great. That being said, I don't think it is as good as it once was. The meta is automatically a lot more offensive and Altaria doesn't do great when it is pressured by Taunt users, setup, and anything that doesn't mind taking a Toxic. It also does not fit well on Spikestack teams due to being too passive and Defog removing your own hazards. I have noticed people like ShuckleDeath and HJAD experimenting with DD Altaria which might be something worth looking into. Despite its low initial power, it does have a lot of setup opportunities and can be very scary to unprepared teams.
 
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#16
Hey guys, so I just wanted to use this post as a means of addressing the recent new topic on Discord about the possibility of options for suspects. I would like to preface this post by saying that the metagame with the new drops in mind has reached a state where while we've got more diversity in options for win conditions, hazard utility, and offensive presence, it's worth noting that offensive playstyles have been brought a new life with the vast new options for hazards and offensive momentum. This all encompasses options like Omastar, Froslass, and Qwilfish, whose hazard games are all influential to the point where the pace of the game for teams using them are often decided based on how well they can do their jobs for the rest of the team. Some of those same offensive threats, as well as Scyther itself, brings a slew of new options for offensive presence and ways of generating momentum. Options for viable new hazard control include more viable Silvallys (especially Water and Dragon) and Altaria, as while they're certainly not without their flaws (lack of recovery in Silvally's case, passivity and major ice vulnerability in Altaria's case), they can add a variety of defensive utility for teams. That said, let's talk about Pyroar and Kingler, two of the most suspect-worthy Pokemon at the moment.



Basically, the meta has ultimately reached a state where offensive playstyles are even more dominantly favored over playstyles, and in the playstyle where Pyroar and Kingler, arguably two of the metagame's most dominant offensive threats, reign supreme in, it's no surprise as to why they've been getting such immediate attention lately. Pyroar is quite possibly the most versatile immediate threat in the tier right now and Kingler is comparable with that level with the added ability to set up to enhance its threat level in the right matchup. I won't waste time going into excessive detail about what they do as it's pretty obvious, but it's evident that they are a clear-cut edge over the others, though I would like to invest more time on talking about Kingler as this is the suspect in question that I would like to push for first and foremost.

Without going into the specifics of the vast amount of options Kingler has for either set up or coverage to deal with otherwise popular checks to it (Ice Beam for Tangela/Altaria, Stomping Tantrum for Qwilfish, Knock Off as a good general cushion, +2 Superpower vs a variety of bulky switch-ins like Poliwrath/Eggy-A/Lurantis), I strongly believe that the most unhealthy aspect that Kingler brings to this tier is the lack of overlap to checking it while also keeping other notable threats in check in one slot. If you opt for Tangela (or any bulky Grass-type honestly), you're prone to being abused by all of Pyroar, Aurorus (and Hail offense by extension), Oricorios, Omastar, and more. This puts a tremendous strain on building because of the need of structuring the rest of the team around adequately answering all of those threats in order to get the most out of using Tangela. Prepping for something like Pyroar, Aggron, or Aurorus on the other hand, however, is typically a bit more feasible when you consider the fact that their defensive answers can be used to check other offensive threats. Kingler feels a lot more isolated since there are far fewer options to blanket check it while addressing other prominent threats compared to Pyroar, where you could slap a Hitmonchan to deal with Pyroar+Aurorus & Hail Offense+Eelektross+Aggron (not a switch in, but a check), a Regirock to deal with Pyroar+Oricorio+Scyther+Kanga+Aggron, etc. It's a whole other level with Kingler, as with its existence in the tier, using up multiple slots to check Kingler while keeping the other big threats in check is far more necessary, especially with Gastrodon's departure (A Pokemon that could have also blanket checked Aggron, Lycanroc, some Pyroar sets, etc).

Basically what I'm getting at here is that this effect that Kingler has on dealing with it makes it extremely awkward to build a functional team with the intent of addressing this and many of the other relevant threats in the metagame, and I strongly feel that the reason that Pyroar is considered so obnoxious right now is because it just happens to have the most benefit out of this situation. This is by virtue of Kingler and Pyroar being completely opposite in terms of how one would go about prepping for the other, as their respective answers are easily abused by the other Pokemon (Tangela/bulky Grasses loses to Pyroar, Munchlax/Type Null/Audino are passive enough to often be exploited by Kingler with relative ease, Pyukumuku gets invalidated by Pyroar's Taunt sets including most of the rest of the stall teams that it is usually built on, the list goes on.). They're pretty much flawless together, but I feel that Pyroar, while it would still be amazing, wouldn't have as much of an unhealthy impact if Kingler weren't around to compound these building issues.

That said, I'd strongly advocate Kingler being suspected first whenever the soonest ideal time for that will be. In summation, this Pokemon has far too little overlap in terms of preparing for it with a slot when compared to preparing for pretty much anything else, which really puts a damper on the number of viability options for building that there is out there.

I don't mind seeing Pyroar suspected afterward, but I'd like to avoid jumping the gun on this one as I've come to appreciate Pyroar's presence in the metagame as an incredibly versatile offensive threat that adds a lot to the metagame without being overbearing in my eyes. I'm also fond of how much it shapes the new metagame threats, including an offensive threat forcing Scyther and Froslass to play meticulously around it, something that Qwilfish can't reliably take on despite the "typing advantage", and something that can offer a revenge killer against annoying sweepers like Jynx, Alolan Sandslash, and Lilligant with a Scarf set. Pyroar is also a wallbreaker that is simultaneously customizable for dealing with defensive threats for its teammates while also being plenty checkable on its own offensively and defensively, with each particular set being fantastic but not coming without a trade-off (Z-Solarbeam underrated lure against regi/lant, but worse vs other specially bulky threats, Choice sets having good utility with either power or speed, but are prone to being exploited in a lot of specific ways [notably a setup opportunity with omastar, etc], Z-Fire being great at breaking down non Fire-type checks like Hitmonchan better, but struggles even more vs Lanturn/Regirock/Munchlax/Type: Null, Z-Sunny Day being a mixture of both breaking and sweeping but struggles to break through some really sturdy specially defensive stuff like Clef and is arguably the set that is least effective against a playstyle like stall, etc.). I feel that these layers of customizability and unpredictability with the sufficient level of counterplay that the tier has is what makes Pyroar special to me in a similar way Mesprit is for this tier, and I'd like to see about how we can shape the metagame in a while that makes its presence less volatile alongside many other top offensive threats. For these reasons I feel that this is best done by suspecting (and hopefully banning) Kingler as soon as possible.
 
#17
I think both mons are a bit ridiculous quite frankly, so to me having one suspected before the other in the grand scheme of things doesn't change much, but I seriously think Pyroar is a far bigger problem to the tier and have had this opinion for a while now. I think to me what represented how comical Pyroar's impact could be over a game was this game I had with jklioe for BotW: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-764548875

Essentially, we both had Kingler / Pyroar, but in practice Pyroar's impact on the game was so much more crucial, and decided by who had the better set against the other. Somehow, my specs Pyroar got through an absolute dedicated counter to it in Clefairy, broke through the Kingler to make it largely useless - he couldn't go to his own Pyroar because funnily enough I also dropped to it if I missed a Hurricane - and by then its job was all but done, I only needed it in case he was scarf and had to lock into something that could hit Oricorio. Which was also darkly hilarious. But really, the fact that there was two very robust mons as counterplay to Pyroar and it somehow didn't stop it all without even resorting to niche options is just kinda gross for my taste.

Now sure, old meta, there's a Ferroseed... But, really, what changed? Everything since the drops has made Pyroar's life easier, with spikes support and new mons like Qwilfish and Froslass that can completely abuse the common checks we have to it. In contrast, those mons on the opposite side do very little to make its life difficult. Froslass is the only drop that straight up outspeeds it, but it needs an item boosted hidden power to reliably 2hko it. Qwilfish and Scyther can't cover it effectively at all. Omastar can feasibly setup on specific sets but it can't switch in for fear of being in range of every priority after being hit by two fire attacks. Altaria beats the choice sets with no rocks up, but struggles heavily against taunt, which is absolutely viable and only add to a major problem. Pyroar's ability to pick its own counterplay, added to its ridiculous speed tier, makes it highly annoying to efficiently prep for.

Also, reading jklioe's post about Pyroar's utility in the tier, I can't help but go back to the Great Durant Debate in SM RU. Essentially, Pyroar and Durant are to me, exactly the same: they're frail-ish offensive mons that due to typing, retain a more than decent defensive value in the tier, they're fast enough to make them highly appealing scarfers when looking at the potential threats that can boost on offensive teams to sweep, that speed is also enhanced by being just above dangerous threats for more offensive builds, and they have at their disposal ridiculous breaking power that has one or two potentially safe counters, on top of a myriad of z-move options that can take care of an unsuspecting check. Mesprit's utility comes into play in terms of team support, with yes some very good offensive sets, Pyroar's utility comes from the fact that it can turn a match extremely quickly and ultimately comes down to your building: Do I have the right checks for the right set? And I think that puts way too big an advantage in the hand of the player using Pyroar. I absolutely get how useful it is, and how in a competitive mindset keeping it makes sense because it gives you a potentially amazing edge, but it's a bit bonkers that one mon can have that kind of impact without being too much.
 

Megazard

Smash Ultimate main
is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
PU Leader
#18
Kingler.png
The PU Council has decided to suspect test Kingler. With the recent rises of Gastrodon and Ferroseed, Kingler has risen to become an absolutely dominating force in the PU metagame. Kingler has insane wallbreaking prowess, enough coverage moves to blow past most of its checks, and pairs extremely well with and influences dominant metagame forces such as Spikes and Pyroar. The council is concerned that Kingler may be negatively impacting teambuilding significantly, making balanced teams practically impossible to achieve as it can blow through most blanket checks and previous balance staples such as Clefairy, Regirock, and Hitmonchan, and forces teams to become extremely offensive or use the same exact cores to be successful. On the other hand, Kingler is fairly easy to revenge kill if it has not set up an Agility, and it can be susceptible to chip damage from priority, entry hazards, Rocky Helmet, Aftermath, and Life Orb recoil from its non-Sheer Force moves. Wallbreaking prowess alone is not necessarily enough to be worth banning a Pokémon that is arguably more threatening on paper than in practice.

As for why Kingler and not Pyroar, both were seen as highly dominant threats worthy of a suspect test and many people, myself included, felt that the latter might be more problematic. However, the argument brought up in council discussions and the NP thread was that Kingler's presence might be a large contributor as to what makes Pyroar broken. The two pair exceptionally well together and Kingler puts immense pressure on most of Pyroar's checks including Regirock, Clefairy, and Hitmonchan. If Kingler were to be banned, it might be worth re-evaluating whether or not Pyroar would remain broken, whereas the reverse does not appear to be the case quite so much. Pyroar can pressure some of Kingler’s checks, but Kingler is perfectly capable of breaking through them on its own.

This suspect will work a bit differently than past PU suspects, more akin to the method UU recently tried out. There will not be a suspect ladder. Instead, the regular PU ladder will remain up and you will need to make a new alt with a PU suspect specific tag. Laddering for requirements will otherwise remain the same. There will be no suspect tours

Your new suspect alt must begin with PUS (eg: PUS Megazard). The alt doesn’t have to be your forum name, it’s just like a regular suspect alt but with PUS in front of it. There will be a message at the beginning of ladder games informing people that there is a suspect going on. Marty please and ty
The requirements will be a 40 game minimum with 82 GXE. This is a step up from past PU suspects, but seems to be better suited to this new process of laddering. Because there will be no separate suspect ladder, you can start laddering immediately.

The suspect will end on Sunday, August 19th at 10pm EST. Feel free to ask about the new laddering process, and good luck qualifying!
1533564932817.gif
 
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#20
After getting reqs, I'm still a little unsure on what way I'm gonna vote. I'm interested to see what people say about it. I'm leaning towards no ban because I think its better on paper than in practice. However, could probably be convinced either way.

Anyways, I made this post to talk about the ladder. Ive found that I have gotten a lot more meaningful games with people who know what they are doing on the regular PU ladder than I would on a seperate ladder. I think sometimes a suspect ladder turns people off and makes it so there are less quality people playing. Then you'll end up playing the same quality person a lot, or playing low ladder people with a 50 GXE. Either way, its not representive of how the tier actually is. Also when people get their reqs, there is almost 0 incentive for them to keep playing. This isnt the case with the regular ladder as the players can just go on their mains and continue playing the tier. Only thing I would change is I think the GXE requirement is a tad bit too high(prefer it to be 80 or 81, or even 81.5 idk), but I really think this was a good idea and should be standard for all suspect tests for all tiers.
 
#21
hello fellads, im here to at least begin discussion concerning the kingler suspect test that is currently going on, and to share my opinions regarding the matter in hand. for context here, i was one of the council members that opted to suspect test kingler over pyroar, but for the sake of this post (as well as the suspect test) i emplore everyone taking part to not even consider pyroar in the equation of whether or not u want kingler banned. Ive seen far too many people discuss the plausibility of not banning kingler under the premise that banning pyroar is a better solution to the meta, which is a flawed mentality to have. Trust that the council will elect to suspect Pyroar next given the meta doesn't substantially improve in the coming weeks, and that deciding to not ban Kingler over the course of this suspect test purely because u want pyroar tested more isn't helping the meta develop, if you decide that Kingler isnt broken because we have sufficient counterplay, thats something i would like to discuss in this post!

I'm very much so on the Ban Kingler side of this suspect. In my opinion, counterplay to Kingler is extremely limiting at the teambuilding stage as well as the team preview stage, especially if you tend to prefer bulkier archetypes, Kingler is an absolute nightmare to come across because you essentially need to choose at the teambuilder, whether or not you want to be especially weak to Kingler. As far as im concerned, there are 3-4 real Kingler checks that I can attest to using on Balance style teams in order to keep Kingler from getting a free kill on my slower Pokemon, such as Clefairy, Regirock, Eelektross, the list of Pokemon that Kingler takes advantage of goes on and on. The 3-4 checks im referencing to constantly are; Poliwrath, Tangela, Bellosom or Servine. Some people don't count Servine even tho i live and die by the Snek so hence why 3-4. Notice how out of all 3 these checks, you can claim only 1 as being Popular in other metagames.

Tangela; has always been a thing, but id actually class it as one of the worse Kingler checks you can use at the moment, considering Ice Beam is being opted for on almost all Kingler sets as coverage. You can run an alternative set with more special defensive investment on Tangela to avoid the 2hko after SR, however, you do lose significant Physical bulk, detracting more from what the tangela was slapped on the team to do initially; to check physical meta. Myself personally, I run both Knock Off and Ice Beam as the fillers on Kingler, so even a specially invested Tangela can be circumvented with the appropriate plays. So with this thing being a very iffy Kingler check, forced into running special invest at the minimum in this meta, its popularity and use outside of the Kingler matchup is hindered by its inability to deal with Kingler itself, often forcing the Balance player to shrug their shoulders and go well ill just have to outplay if Kingler gets out of hand. I wish this Poke could deal with Kingler better, but it just isn't a valid answer.

Poliwrath; Only really gained popularity because it checked the void that Gastrodon / Ferroseed left gaping in their absence. Rock Types such as Aggron and Lycanroc as well as the suspected Kingler have skyrocketed in usage due to the lack of popular check roaming the meta like they used to. And to answer the call, comes Poliwrath, a mon which hasn't really been great in the last few metas because half of the PU teams used Mesprit, so all teams had an insta check at the minimum, and half of the teams that didn't use Mesprit in previous metas were probably using Clefairy (reminder that this was in the midst of the FerroClef craze), and then take into account the teams that didnt use either of those Pokemon but could still check Poliwrath because it really depended heavily on Toxic to do its breaking on bulkier Pokemon. Basically what im tryna say is Poliwrath has always sucked in current gen PU, people are only really finding usage out of it because its PUs only 100% full on Kingler check, as well as checking another chunk of the meta thats popular, its still that same poke incapable of finding usage. In my opinion, despite its vast improvement in this meta, it can easily be claimed that using a Pokemon scraping around the B ranks at its best moments is too much for a tier to depend on considering how prominent Kingler teams are.

Bellosom & Servine; niche grasses that have found themself some usage (one way or another) because Kingler became used. It kinda follows the same line as Poliwrath, can we really depend on Pokemon found in the C ranks to dependably check one of, if not THE, biggest threats in the tier? In my opinion, the answer is no. The fact I've even had to go as far as using Servine says a lot about how difficult it is to be creative as well as check Kingler well since its one of the only Kingler checks that offers role compression in terms of being a kingler check+something else (in this case defog aka hazards control).

Now I could mention a few much less reliable checks too, so honourable mentions to Silvally-Water and Qwilfish, neither of which can check Kingler in the context of a battle, but can be considered a check if your team manages to not be weak to Kingler in the rest of your slots.
Kingler basically forces you into dedicating a slot to check it, otherwise, you will end up having significant difficulties preventing it from tearing ur elaborate fat core apart. Now, it would be all good if Kingler could only wall break. I mean, Ursaring does the same thing right? Come in on slow mons like Clef and kill something with a much smaller full on counter list than Kingler, what allows Kingler to differentiate itself succesfully and turn it into an A+ meta threat and worthy of a suspect test. And the answer would be 1 thing, Speed and Bulk.

Kingler offers a huge Speed tier where other wallbreakers falter, boasting 249 with an adamant nature, making it by far one of the highest Damage output Pokemon for its Speed tier, allowing it to fuck with not only the Slow Walls that breakers use to abuse, but also the vast majority of breakers themselves. In-game, this makes Kingler very difficult to play against, since it isnt completely dependent on getting an agility up to outspeed stuff and break (differentiating itself from Costa which is a comparison ive seen a lot too). Kingler being viewed in the context of a breaker with utility vs Offense is a much more effective way of looking at the crab, since the view point that its a tool to beat Offense first and Balance next philosophy is often what makes it easy to play against or where it gets poor performances and those "easier to play against in practice" moments that people have been mentioning in general. Agility allows it the utility to outspeed the entire scarf metagame with the exception of the waste of a pokemon that is Scarf Pyroar, so therefore it always gives Kingler an option vs Offense teams so its not completely pointless, where in the same regard an Absol or an Ursaring would be. Its bulk allows it to comfortably lives any priority the tier can throw at it, Hitmonchan and Gurdurrs Mach Punch, Kangas Fake Out+Sucker, Sucker from Skunk. Therefore, due to this, it leads to people staying in with Pokes that don't belong vs Kingler since if kingler does get a free agility, people have little to no resources to revenge kill it effectively. So seeing a Regirock or Hitmonchan stay in on a Kingler is a common occurence due to the amount of damage it can do if it does get an Agility up.

To Summarise this long ass post, Kingler has several elements wallbreakers wish to have. the 130 Attack Sheer Force Life Orb Boosted STAB Move, all the coverage it could ever need, Speed enough to abuse the entire bulky meta, Bulk enough to abuse any wrongly locked Scarfer and a move in Agility which makes it not a deadweight vs Offense the same way most wallbreakers are. The checks we do have are niche as fuck and difficult for current balance teams to implement successfully and as a result, teambuilding variety will 100% suffer, making the tier stale and unenjoyable in the foreseeable future should a Kingler suspect result in a No Ban. With Kingler gone, there will be more room to prepare further for a Pyroar, lessening its impact on the tier, and generally making PU less miserable to build in. (Yay more assault vest)

tl;dr for lazy peeps; i dont wanna use servine anymore to check fucking kingler, please get rid of it :verymad:
 
#22
I just stumbled across this on the front page, and don't play PU, but I was present for the UU suspect. Due to that, I was wondering if suspect ladder alts should be given the PUKS (PU Kingler Suspect, if it wasn't clear) tag, as UU had UUVS for suspect alts. It is also worth considering that the first letter of any given pokemon's name could match that of another, so maybe using something a bit more specific would be more beneficial.
 

Megazard

Smash Ultimate main
is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
PU Leader
#23
I just stumbled across this on the front page, and don't play PU, but I was present for the UU suspect. Due to that, I was wondering if suspect ladder alts should be given the PUKS (PU Kingler Suspect, if it wasn't clear) tag, as UU had UUVS for suspect alts. It is also worth considering that the first letter of any given pokemon's name could match that of another, so maybe using something a bit more specific would be more beneficial.
If we use the system again things can get more specific (PUPS anyone?) but this is the first time Pu’s used the system, it shouldn’t really matter, and I won’t change the requirements almost a week in.
 
#24
After playing a bunch for the suspect, I agree that Kingler needs to go. It is a wallbreaker with so much immediate power and very little counterplay, and it has adapted to beat its checks with moves like Ice Beam. However, it can sweep entire teams as well unlike most wallbreakers thanks to Agility which it can easily abuse in this meta setting up on weak physical attackers or ones locked into the wrong move. This combination of factors make it just a bit too much for the tier, and I'm voting BAN. I won't say anymore because HJAD, EviGaro, and others have already gone over the main arguments in great detail.

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However I do want to talk about one more thing which, after doing a bunch of laddering, I feel is the most broken element in the metagame- Rain. (I apologize for temporarily derailing the Kingler discussion, but I wanted to get this all out). Now I know this might sound silly since throughout most of the metagame, Rain has felt like simply a "cheese" playstyle, or one that's not even that good. However there are a lot of misconceptions surrounding the playstyle, and Rain has also improved with the meta shifts.

Sweepers: Ludicolo, Kabutops, Omastar, and Qwilfish are all powerful sweepers under rain in a tier with few solid water-resists as we saw in the Kingler suspect. Two of them are capable of outspeeding our main Choice Scarf users and all of them possess a dual STAB combination that leaves them with few counters. There are also more niche sweepers like Floatzel, Gorebyss, Poliwrath, and Beartic who have unique traits that can break teams otherwise suited to beating Rain.
Tier Shift: Qwilfish dropping from NU had a huge impact on Rain as a whole. Not only functioning as a threatening sweeper with SD, it is able to and beat some of the main checks to rain such as Tangela and AV Hitmonchan, while absorbing one of the most annoying problems to Rain teams in Toxic Spikes. Furthermore, Qwilfish can setup Spikes and Toxic Spikes itself which can easily push Rain past many bulkier builds.
- Additionally, Ferroseed and Gastrodon left the tier which makes the counterplay to Kabutops' coverage extremely minimal. Kabutops itself could be considered broken in Rain due to the sheer force of its attacks and how it can break any of its would be counters with a Z-move at +2. Ferroseed leaving also helps with Ludicolo, since it could easily stall Ludicolo of Rain turns.
Rain Setters: There are three main Rain setters in the tier. Mesprit is extremely bulky, can set Rocks, and either U-turn out or Healing Wish for momentum. Volbeat is also a crucial part of Rain, with Encore being an invaluable way to check setup sweepers that might otherwise be a threat to Rain and also possessing slow U-turn and Prankster Rain Dance. Liepard, while not as good as the first two also has Prankster Rain Dance and can provide support with Pursuit and Yawn. These Rain setters may not have Drizzle but they make it incredibly easy to setup Rain and then easily provide momentum into a sweeper.
Additional Support: It is entirely possible to make a successful Rain team with just Swift Swim sweepers and setters. However, there are numerous other pokemon which can easily push Rain over the edge by making it less one-dimensional. Scarf Togedemaru, for example, absorbs Volt Switch, checks Scarf Aurorus, and revenges threatening pokemon like Oricorios and Scyther. Gurdurr checks Scarf Togedemaru and other fast Scarf users, beats most Hail teams, and takes on Sucker Punch and other priority users easily. Oricorio-Sensu can use its unique attributes to take advantage of Tangela and Lilligant, and setup on special walls like Type:Null and Audino. Alolan-Sandslash can bop Hail teams, provide a spinner and check Flying-types who threaten Ludicolo/Volbeat. Kanghaskhan can pair well with a Spiker Qwilfish, and shouldn't need much explanation because its priority and is useful for any offensive team.
Matchup: Rain is matchup-based. That is true without a doubt. However, in this metagame it has the advantage against the majority of other playstyles and teams when backed by a good player (this is an important point b/c many of the people who spam Rain on ladder aren't that good, and that warps perceptions). The predominant playstyle in this tier is offense and Rain should win against standard offense the majority of the time. It simply is very hard for frailer teams to combat the pressure from multiple powerful Swift Swim sweepers with dual STAB coverage. Kangaskhan does provide some counterplay but Kabu/Qwil only take so much from Fake Out and it essentially becomes 3 against 1. Faster Scarf Users like Toge and Primeape can outspeed Ludicolo/Omastar but they just drop to Qwilfish and Kabutops and many teams will have strong support from them. Balance matchup depends on the specific pokemon. Hitmonchan? Mach Punch is great but you still lose to Mesprit/Volbeat/Qwilfish. Specs Aurorus may take away Rain Stall and defensive teams these days have even less chance against Rain because of how strong SD Kabu, Qwilfish and Omastar are. There are in my opinion only a few pokemon you can run to have a clear advantageous matchup vs Rain. Scarf Kabutops, Poliwrath, and Scarf Aurorus. All other matchups are at least neutral or negative, and become even harder when it is not pure Rain but rather semi-Rain with niche support. Yes, it is possible to play around Rain even with a disadvantageous matchup with predictions, but I don't think the idea of facing down several pokemon with 350+ speed, boosted STAB moves and perfect coverage is necessarily healthy for the tier.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-789641312 Rain easily beats Eel, Skunk, Lurantis, Clef
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-789643816 Tough match showing Scarf Toge supporting Rain
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-789649112 Rain beating Chan + Lilli Balance
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-789706092 Gurdurr Rain beating Specs Aurorus balance

No, I don't have any specific proposals yet. We could suspect Kabutops or Qwilfish in the future, or even suspecting Damp Rock but I know the focus right now is on Kingler, and there's a long list of suspect proposals. I just wanted to bring this playstyle to radar.
TLDR: use rain; it's good
 
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