Metagame np: USUM PU Stage 4- Spikes [Kingler Suspect Test]

Ktütverde

Always turning thoughts into things
is a Tiering Contributor
#26
Hello, I just wanted to put my two cents in about the kingler suspect, because I've seen many people in the PU room saying that ursaring is more dangerous or that octillery is stronger, and also because even mid- / good- level players with not enough experience in PU sometimes don't really know exactly why kingler is broken, which is understandable given all its flaws. The main reasons have been given above, so I want to list some scenarios and Match-Ups vs Kingler.

Agility sweeper

Kingler @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Liquidation
- Ice Beam
- Stomping Tantrum
- Agility



SD wallbreaker

Kingler @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Liquidation
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Swords Dance


Here are some scenarios showing how unhealthy kingler is:

-vs Offense (ex: mesprit/chan/togedemaru/pyroar/lycanrock/swanna).
Kingler might look semideadweight because it is ko'd or almost ko'd by mesprit, swanna, pyroar, Z lycan, and zingzap. The issue, however, is that it can come in on chan relatively safely and do a ton of damage to mesprit/swanna which try to check it. You will say: well same with a drampa/ursaring, you can't wall it! Yes, but kingler can just come back later via parting shot/healing wish/on a resisted move, use agility and JUST WIN. tl;dr : kingler wallbreaks and sweeps at the same time; it is therefore self sufficient. Its good typing (pure water)+high physical bulk help it further achieving this goal: if it gets an agility, machpunch+accelerock won't be enough to Ko it.

-vs Balance (ex: regirock/tangela/pyroar/skuntank/poliwrath/togedemaru)
Bulky teams always have a tangela/silvally-water/silvally-dragon JUST for the kingler matchup (even though they aren't bad at all), so one could think RIP kingler. But kingler doesn't really care actually. Whether you are using SD or agility, it can often break the team on its own. I just created a random BO team here with two of the "best kingler checks", tangela and poliwrath. This team is probably the least weak to kingler since you can check it defensively and offensively with pyroar and toge, but you can also just mispredict and have your tangela icebeamed, or your poliwrath SD+superpowered. Good matchup, but only because of Tangela+Poli (which could be tangela+silvally-W/D). The team is still super-centered around the kingler matchup, and will struggle with stuff like lanturn w/ icebeam, eelektross or swanna, but the priority is kingler nowadays. I won't even talk about kingler+spikes, because nothing can reliably check that.

-vs Stall (ex: pyukumuku/altaria/articuno/regirock/audino/tangela)
No pyukumuku=instaloss vs kingler. The only pokemon able to COUNTER kingler is pyukumuku, so I don't need to explain further: stall would simply be unviable (or relying on predictions/wish passing to kingler checks) without pyuku, so you had better keep it healthy vs kingler. I don't like stall, by that I mean if you are stalling and get swept that's your problem, but I find it pretty scary that kingler destroys almost any stall without pyuku (stall can still use other methods to wall gurdurr/Crotomb/absol etc, but nothing else is able to 100% beat kingler)



-Note that Kingler+Mesprit is super common (well mesprit itself is super common), so saying that Kingler+HW is broken for exemple is stupid since Healing Wish is THE meta and should be taken into account just as stealth rock and defog.
-The teams used as exemples don't belong to anybody as far as I know, I just put together pokemons which represent the playstyles and synergize together quite well.
 

yogi

It's all about perspective!
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#27
Ok so almost all of the posts thus far have covered my stance on Kingler, but I'd like to talk about the problem as a whole too (of course I know the Kingler test will address some of it), because right now PU has a problem. It is over-saturated by threats. What I mean is that building a general team is basically impossible without it resorting to being either very offensive or just straight losing to Pokemon.

Now, I like to think I'm a decent builder. But even when building I struggled to make teams that would function consistently on the ladder, without losing to something. Now I don't mean a random Life Orb Rampardos or something equally as niche, I'm referring to current meta staples like Aurorus, Aggron, and Pyroar. I found even teams that contained Pokemon such as Type: Null + Poliwrath, which is meant to check the previously mentioned Pokemon + Kingler just make you lose to something else, like Gurdurr in this case. It's so hard to build something which you're just able to use without worrying about needing to forfeit to some of the most common Pokemon.

PU simply has too many offensive threats and we've lost more and more Pokemon that are able to act as glue to check these and, even after the banning of both Archeops and Magmortar, the tier just keeps getting more and more threats emerging because of shifts. Like I said this drastically affects team building, but also just makes the meta probably one of my, and other's, least favourite to date.

The banning of Kingler will certainly help but even after it's gone there's still a plethora of stupidly good sweepers, wallbreakers, and cleaners that the defensive side of the tier struggles to even blanket check. Either we're going to have to get an extremely good tier shift or Pokemon such as Aurorus and Pyroar need to go. I'll admit I was a bit skewed in my view before laddering, mainly because I build versus specific people, but after playing a bit I can see the meta is in a very awkward place right now.
 
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