np: USUM UU Stage 5 - Obsessions (Kommonium Z and Scolipede banned from UU)

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TSR

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#28
What's good unfortunate readers, thought I should drop some of my thoughts since we've had the Ultra Sun/Moon for about a week and Ive played enough of it to start forming my own opinions. There's basically five points to talk about it so I'll just go over them one at a time. So since I've put this off for two days here's a post I started last night and rushed to finish before I have to head off to my terrible job.

: Kommo-o is quickly looking to be one of the most overhyped mons I've ever seen, to be completely honest. To be fair it's pretty decent and always something I have in the back of my mind when I build now, but I haven't yet felt the need to go out of my way to beat the Clangorous Soulblaze set. There's a ton of good fairies you can use to stop the Z move if you really need it. I've also found that it really wants to run both of its Dragon and Fighting STABs but Outrage is the first to go on almost any moveset and it really needs Close Combat. Flamethrower lets it hurt Doublade which I've seen a handful of Resttalk sets to give Kommo-o a hard time otherwise but then you miss out on running Focus Blast which is the only feasible double STAB you can run. It wants to run Poison Jab to hit Primarina and Azumarill but then misses out on the other fairies to an extent. Seriously, this thing can't OHKO a 0 bulk Togekiss with +1 Poison Jab LOL (
+1 252 Atk Kommo-o Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 244-288 (78.4 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Obviously if it goes with Iron Tail it misses out on doing big damage to Azu and Primarina which are also some important targets (arguably more common than Togekiss at the moment as well). The damage output is pretty disappointing overall and having to carefully pick what it can break through is not doing it any favors. Sure it can sweep with the right support but this goes for any mon, and it's not exactly hard to revenge kill if you do get yourself in that kinda situation since out best scarfers and priority users slam it, especially with the constant defense drops it has to take to use its best moves. I know the resurgence of Scarf Latias is probably due to the overhyping of this set, but I'd like to believe it's because Healing Wish in conjunction with Serperior and/or Azumarill is amazing. Clangorous Soulblaze + Dragon Dance is a nice thought to make it harder to revenge kill, but the Dragon Dance sets tend to miss a physical Dragon STAB. Again, not terrible but not nearly as hard to deal with as some people seem to think. Straight Dragon Dance sets don't seem to bring as much to the table than Haxorus with its less powerful Outrages and lower speed as well as the lack of Mold Breaker, but having a pretty strong secondary STAB that can break Steels not named Doublade easier is kinda nice. The extra bulk and Suppose Choice Band is also a semi-viable option now, but again, why not just use Haxorus if you're going for the pure wallbreaking? A set that actually seems threatening to me is a SubSalac Belly Drum set with Drain Punch, as it seems really hard to revenge kill with scarfers or priority thanks to the Sub and Drain Punch, and you can't just sand it down with Hippowdon because of Drain Punch. Seems borderline broken on paper but it's probably a lot harder to pull off in practice than it would suggest. Being the massive GSC fanboy I am I also theorized a Bulk Up + Belly Drum based off of Curse + Drum, or Turbo, Lax set that I have yet to try but have already decided to call it Turbo-o. I'll write something else later about how it actually works out, stay tuned. I know it's only a week in but I'd probably give this mon B+ or A- just because it's something that definitely works in the meta but you don't have to think especially hard or go out of your way to check it with standard Balance or Bulky Offense.

: Azumarill is pretty much the same as the last two times we banned it, strong wallbreaker with a decent typing that lets it throw off some hard hits and revenge kill a Terrakion or Aero with Aqua Jet. Belly Drum is still sorely overrated as I expected. Its not hard to slap a fast Water resist on offense and limit it to 1 KO at most even if you play like dong. Even moderately powerful stuff like Latias can revenge it at half health and there are even better options for this task like Sceptile and Rotom-Wash. Liquidation is a cool new tool that it can use to smash through Quagsire on stall teams but you still probably shouldn't use it on Drum sets. I honestly think that Primarina is better in a direct comparison to be completely honest, the Special Water/Fairy STAB backed up by Psychic is pretty nasty and Sparkling Aria pretty much ensures that Primarina will never lose a 1v1 to SubToxic Gliscors which is always nice. Lastly, with the GSC virtual console live, we can run Whirlpool + Perish Song with Sap Sipper which is kinda neat because it's a free win against stall but not super potent otherwise. TLDR I'd vote unban a million times if I was voting again, and hopefully it doesn't get a ban vote for a set walled by Hippowdon. (still <3 u kinku-sama)

: Definitely the middle of the road as far as these unbans go. Clicking 140 base power STAB and getting +2 SpA off of it is kind of annyoing for balance teams but at the same time its so pathetically weak initially that it has a hard time actually getting these boosts without giving some momentum away. It's really not even ridiculously strong with boosts, +2 HP Fire fails to OHKO Mega Beedrill (
+2 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Beedrill: 220-260 (81.1 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO; I learned this from U-turn missing due to an evasion boost from Defog, the true broken factor of Serperior)
Defensive teams have more than enough to deal with it between Mega Aggron (should be running max SpD), Mega Altaria, Togekiss, Moltres, Blissey, Amoonguss, Bronzong, and even Sap Sipper Azumarill now. All of these are viable choices for stall teams (which the SubSeed set apparently destroys) that can hold Serperior off pretty easily, off the top of my head. As for checking it offensively, there's plenty of good choices that can take it on. Its Speed tier of 113 is good but a bit awkward as this means even Starmie and Raikou can be threatening to it in the right scenario. As always we have things like and Scarf Infernape, Mega Beedrill and Manectric (this mon isn't common but i just wanted this chance to say use Salazzle btw) which are extremely common that scare it out pretty easily and can tank Leaf Storms in a pinch. Muk and Klefki are still ever rising in popularity and are both pretty threatening to Serp with priority Thunder Wave (or Light Screen) and Pursuit-trapping. Sure it's boosting is pretty potent in some scenarios but I think we have a sufficient amount of viable tools to keep Serp under control with. Definitely a mon with some good tools, especially with Z-moves and Defog, as well as something we'd have to consider a bit when building, but nothing over strenuous on any specific playstyles in my opinion.

: Scolipede definitely seems like the most re-banworthy of the trio, with its capability to get a Swords Dance and Speed Boost off in one turn making it a massive threat to any team without a Quagsire. Megahorn/Earthquake/Aqua Tail seems to be agreed upon as the best spread of coverage it can use to shred through as much offense as possible, but there are options like a secondary STAB in Poison Jab that can let it smack various Fairies in one hit as well as Mantine, which otherwise would be one of its most solid checks. I think all of this is somewhat better on paper than in practice, though, as Swords Dance is pretty hard to get off for free against the offense teams it supposedly sweeps and 100 base Attack is decent without a boost, but nothing astounding. Suicide Leads seem lowkey bad but can probably work on some balls to the wall retard offense that I hate so if anyone wants to try that out tell me how it goes. A general Life Orb set with Spikes/Toxic Spikes sounds more appealing to me, as and offensive hazard setter that doesn't get completely stuffed by common stuff like Tentacruel and Empoleon or Defog Rotom forms now is probably good. For now this mon seems really good and I'm for banning it since on paper it makes the tier worse even if it isn't completely busted, but I'm not completely sold on it. I'll need more hands-on experience with this mon as it's definitely the unban I've used the least out of the three so far.

Last point I wanna talk about is the general move tutors and new stuff we have access to now. I'll just point out a couple that have caught my attention since we don't have a whole ton of stuff to talk about just yet

: Obligatory talking about the new defoggers yada yada. I'd like to point out that Mowtom and Serperior are both really effective Defoggers in my opinion, as they easily force out common setters like Gliscor, Swampert, Seismitoad, and Mega Steelix (to an extent). Mowtom also can stop Klefki with Toxic which is nice. Mega Altaria, Gliscor, and Hydreigon are really strong Defoggers for defensive teams too but I haven't tried them out too much yet. Defog in general being more available has made Moltres and Talonflame more viable, especially with the increase of Rotom-Wash not running Pain Split and making it easier to wear down, as well as a little less Aerodactyl in general.

: Muk got some nice new moves with elemental punches, so now it can hit Scizor a bit harder with Fire Punch as well as pressure Gliscor a bit if you wanna go with Ice Punch if you can deal with Scizor well enough. Also has >100 HP Subs and Focus Punch now, not sure how that will work out but it sounds super fun to mess around with even if it might be a bit suboptimal.

Not too much more to mess around with at the moment in my opinion bar like Meteor Mash Lucario which I have yet to try out but doesn't seem like a super massive improvement on its part.

That's enough from me for now, hopefully I'll have the time for another more educated post closer to the bans. Still think we should unban Mega Lati and Buzzwole, and stop using 176 SpA Mamo with no Icicle Crash PLEASE.
 
#29
Let's not underestimate the potency of non Leech Seed / Taunt Serperior vs stall, it has in my view a significantly above average match up.

For example, Blissey is the obvious countermeasure that nearly all stall teams have versus Serperior. However, look at these calcs:

  • 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 114-135 (15.9 - 18.9%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • +2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 228-268 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • +4 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 339-400 (47.4 - 56%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • +6 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 453-534 (63.4 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Therefore if a 100% Blissey switches in on Leaf Storm with SR up, it will be at about 76% at the end of the turn (factoring in Leftovers)

The next turn, if Serperior uses + 2 Leaf Storm and Blissey uses Toxic, Blissey will be at about 48% factoring in Leftovers and average rolls.

Finally, on the third turn, Blissey will just die to a +4 Leaf Storm making the stall team very vulnerable or possibly just swept if they don't have a good way to revenge kill.

Therefore in this way, Blissey cannot counter or even reliably check Serperior. So after switching in, Blissey has to heal immediately, but this lets Serperior get to +4, stay unToxiced, and against a Blissey at about 90-100% depending on rolls. Even in the best case, Blissey still loses.

So the fact of the matter is, standard Blissey (without Protect and without SpD investment) cannot counter Serperior even without Taunt or Leech Seed.

Here is a replay of these thoughts in action (I actually won two out of two times but only one replay was saved):

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-662062701

If I had played better with Serperior and saved it when their team was slightly more weak or predicted the first Spiky Shield, I could have recieved even more kills. Despite (both players') suboptimal play, Serperior still managed to get an essential kill on Chesnaught and weaken Blissey to below 30% after SR.

Lastly, several other defensive measures that fit on stall still lose to the Z Hyper Beam set including Amoonguss, Altaria Mega, Latias, and Togekiss with just SR up. It is easy to get to +2 because nearly all stall teams have a bulky water type like Quagsire or Alomomola that Serperior can launch a Leaf Storm at.

  • +2 252 SpA Serperior Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 268-316 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • +2 252 SpA Serperior Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 304-358 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery (Amoonguss cannot KO back, although it would be best to just weaken Amoonguss first)
  • +2 252 SpA Serperior Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Altaria-Mega: 290-342 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (100% chance to KO if Altaria took 25% SR damage)
  • +2 252 SpA Serperior Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 346-408 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (obviously a KO with SR)

It is clear to me that people who say Serperior struggles against stall are seriously misevaluating the matchup.
 
#30
i've slowly been getting convinced that none of these drops are actually as broken as they seem on paper.

so first off, azumarill, this thing isn't even remotely broken. based on what i've seen belly drum has by far been its worst set (don't even get me started on z belly drum). this tier has plenty of water resists to be able to deal with it once it sets up and this usually isn't an issue because azu would be taking quite a bit of damage anyway in order to set up. it's choice band set is obviously very good but it's kinda like a slower primarina in this regard, strong as shit but held back by really pathetic speed (cant even check stuff like crawdaunt) that does have checks which aren't hard to fit on to teams. i haven't used azumarill much but i have played against plenty of them and it definitely hasn't stood out as something that should be in bl.

serperior needs to be at +2 to actually kill something so it's pretty much forced to click leaf storm and while isn't necessarily a bad thing it does actually give you quite a bit of room for counterplay in actual battles. in regards to the sub seed set, given how dominant volt turn is it's actually forced to sub a lot which wears away at its own health making it easier to deal with in a battle. then there's also shit like like sap sipper azu / crobat (has to watch out for glare though but it still isn't rly gonna end up beating crobat unless it's glare + z-hyper beam) / amoonguss which basically stops it cold. if it's not running sub it opens itself up to different counterplay in pokemon like muk, klefki, scarfers etc. serperior doesn't struggle against stall especially the taunt synthesis set but it definitely doesn't have an easy time against stall for sure. there are tons of countermeasures outside of blissey like moltres, crobat, amoonguss, registeel, mega altaria, kyurem which all give it significant problems and there's also the fact that serperior can face pp issues and the fact that using leaf storm without sub can leave it open to toxic. and it's not like ur using these mons to only check serp either, they do a bunch of other important shit. i mean shit, you can even take one with mola to get off a toxic if you want.

252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 390-458 (81 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

i've primarily been using stall (one that featured crobat and mega altaria, and another that had moltres and altaria) and i never really faced an issue with serp.

scolipede was the one i was anticipating to be most broken out of the three and it's the one i'm on the fence about. it has good coverage in rock slide (super uncommon) / eq / aqua tail which in conjunction with z moves are pretty daunting to face. once it gets an sd and if it's still healthy it really doesn't have any issues cleaning up teams. but on the flip side i've actually haven't had that easy of a time actually getting it to that point. it's a rocks weak mon which is an issue in itself on top of the fact that setting up even against resisted attacks forces it to take quite a bit of damage due to pretty bad bulk.

0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 85-101 (32.5 - 38.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Pixilate Altaria-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 85-101 (32.5 - 38.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO

and that's just assuming it is setting up on something that it resists which is the best case scenario and will usually result in stuff being able to revenge scoli either with or without priority (because well 100 atk isn't the strongest thing in the world). i haven't tried a set with spikes as of yet but those seem cool too. don't get me wrong it's still a fantastic pokemon with tremendous upside but it's ability to just set up and just blow by teams has been overestimated in my opinion.
 
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Stallion

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#31
Hi,

I've been sick from work the past few days, so I thought that I'd pick up some USUM UU to kill the time as I work my way back to full health (no Kink this doesn't mean I'm making a grand return haha).

Stall is as strong as ever, but I'm with pokeisfun - Serperior is absolutely an absurd threat that I need to overprepare for to be able to be comfortable against. Not only is the Normalium-Z threat able to blow past supposed checks, but I had Alolan Muk, BLissey, Togekiss and Mega Aggron and still didn't feel 100% comfortable against the ridiculous SubSeed set. I had to make changes to feel well protected against that. My stall team was almost as well prepared for Serp as any defensive team could possibly be and I still had to play my ass off to play around it. Don't underestimate it.

Edit: I can't use Perish Trap Whirlpool Sap Sipper Azu yet and this makes me cry.
 
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#32
Haven't posted in a uu thread fot quite some time, but I can spread some thoughts after using a team that Cynde gave me with scoli on it. The team is brainless HO and that style as a whole has always been up and down with finding ways to win by taking advantage of misplays and losing games by making even the slightest misplay. As far as taking advantage of misplays and unprepared teams, scoli just turns it up a notch. The z quake set is able to punish opponents extremely well for poor play. I dont think id ban it right now for being too good of a mon because ive seen people play around it pretty well with either having a viable hard counter or just playing around it with pressure and priority. The only thing that gets me is that is comes off as such a brainless mon regardless of how good it is, but that can be said about a lot of sweepers so it's nothing new.
 

dingbat

ban all garden sneks
is a Tiering Contributor
#33
Freeing Azumarill from BL was definitely a good move; all the recent metagame shifts and trends set up the environment where Azumarill would be perfectly manageable as basically every good team regardless of archetype are passively packing shit like Rotom-W that can easily threaten it even after Belly Drum has been clicked. I believe that when this meta settles down again, Choice Band will emerge as the thing that takes most advantage of Azumarill's strongest traits, as there are not many threats as of now that are capable of switching into Play Rough/Waterfall/Knock Off without potentially losing a massive chunk of health. Still a top tier threat to look after, but definitely more manageable than it was before.

Serperior is definitely a threat that will most likely cause an issue down the line as it has the tools available to heavily pressure every single playstyle in this tier with this one set. While I don't share the same sentiment that I did with Mega Latias during its suspect, I think people are already underestimating the (potential) impact that Z-hyper beam has in this meta. Here's the set I'm referencing that I'm sure a lot of players know or are already running at this point:

garden snek @ normal-z
ability: contrary
252 spA / 4 spD / 252 spe
timid nature
-leaf storm
-hyper beam
-brip
-xd

With Z-Hyper Beam, Serperior bypasses a ton of shit that would otherwise be reliable checks, including Amoonguss, Mega Altaria, and Latias (I personally think Dragon Pulse is shit on Serp). Plenty of choices as to what Serp could run in those last two slots; HP Fire breaks through Scizor and Klefki, Glare gives Serp a better matchup vs offense, making the opponent think twice about switching shit like Mega Beedrill, Talonflame, Scarf Hydreigon, or any faster Leaf Storm resist into Serp which, if they switch into Glare, invalidates them as checks as Serp can then freely launch Z-Hyper Beam if they switch in again. Taunt + Synthesis gives Serp a better matchup advantage vs stall. Subseed, while better utilized with Leftovers as opposed to Normal-Z, can still annoy the hell out of opponents with chip damage, especially when entry hazards are up. I've also seen pif utilize Giga Drain which, although it doesn't seem perfectly optimal, can occasionally provide a game-altering boost in longevity while still reliably damaging opposing 'mons assuming Serp has already boosted with Leaf storm at least once.


Once this meta adjusts further, I'll have a proper stance on Serp.
 

Lycans

Just like nicotine, heroin, morphine
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#34
Im not someone who usually talk in this type of threads but think this time it deserves it, I regret if my post is not as long as the ppl that usually post here but think my thoughts about these mons are quite clear

: I think this fairy has always been overrated by the community, I've heard some people even have said that the z belly drum set could sweep teams by its own, which is not certainly correct, since the mayority of the tier can take on its stabs with relative ease and also if we add the fact that its revenge killers aka serperior rotom and latias have plenty of usage in the tier. I think the z move set isnt the best compared to cb or even sap sipper.

: i honestly wasn't sure what to think about this mon but after some days playing with it i realised that it's not that hard to counterplay it, basically because in order to become a threat it needs to use one turn to get the boost of leaf storm and even at +2 it can fail to ko some necessary things sometimes... some people have said that stall can struggle to deal with serperior but actually i noticed that some stall teams already got answers for it in crobat, mandibuzz or even the sap sipper azu that pif added

: oh god i didnt need to waste time on the ladder to realise the destructive capability of this mon, to get choice locked in front of this is a curse if it gets at +2 in attack and it will be a pain in the ass to revenge kill it, it can take two priority moves to kill it or some previous dmg for scizors bullet punch, the nerf to tw also doesnt help it since after a +2 in speed it can outspeed 110 base mons like latias, i dont want to say its impossible to kill it because depending on the set you can provide various checks /counters to it, but still it forces you to run things just to stop it from sweeping
 
#36
Azumarill: Azu is the physical version of Primarina with priority and a Belly Drum set option. This thread has been hating on Azumarill more than it deserved. The Choice Band set is really good on Volt/Turn teams as any time Azumarill comes in for free it is guaranteed a kill unless the opponent has a defensive Amoongus. Similarly to Primarina, it is hard to switch in to, but not very difficult to wear down and revenge kill. The Belly Drum set is really good, and anyone who says it is overrated is just wrong. I haven't had any experience with the Z BD set, but the standard set is extremely hard to stop. The most common mons used to revenge kill it are Latias, Hydreigon, Rotom-Wash, and Serperior. None of these pokemon are hard to chip down with hazards, and the fact that the opponent is forced to keep their water resist in the back gives the Azumarill user a big advantage. Its really cool that the one main counter to CB, amoongus, is beaten by the BD set. As of now I am currently on the fence.

Serperior: Serp is an extremely good pokemon that almost always dents the opposing team in one way or another. Finding counters to this pokemon are limiting as they must be faster than Serp while also resisting Leaf Storm. Although there are several pokemon that fill this roll, the most common being scarf dragons and Beedrill, I can't find myself making a viable team without lazily throwing on a Scarf Lati/Hydrei to check this mon. I've been successful in checking Serperior most of the time, but I do not want a meta where I need to toss a Scarf Dragon on every team. For that reason I'm leaning towards banning it.

Scolipede: Although this pokemon has a pretty bad offensive typing, its coverage and ability to use a Z move make it really hard to check. If it's 4 moves were known its not hard to check, but with so many different move combinations it turns into an unhealthy guessing game. With SD and Speed Boost you can't really afford to make a wrong prediction. I am leaning towards ban.
 
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#37
Azumarill: Azu is the physical version of Primarina with priority and a Belly Drum set option. This thread has been hating on Azumarill more than it deserved. The Choice Band set is really good on Volt/Turn teams as any time Azumarill comes in for free it is guaranteed a kill unless the opponent has a defensive Amoongus. Similarly to Primarina, it is hard to switch in to, but not very difficult to wear down and revenge kill. The Belly Drum set is really good, and anyone who says it is overrated is just wrong. I haven't had any experience with the Z BD set, but the standard set is extremely hard to stop. The most common mons used to revenge kill it are Latias, Hydreigon, Rotom-Wash, and Serperior. None of these pokemon are hard to chip down with hazards, and the fact that the opponent is forced to keep their water resist in the back gives the Azumarill user a big advantage. Its really cool that the one main counter to CB, amoongus, is beaten by the BD set. As of now I am currently on the fence.

Serperior: Serp is an extremely good pokemon that almost always dents the opposing team in one way or another. Finding counters to this pokemon are limiting as they must be faster than Serp while also resisting Leaf Storm. Although there are several pokemon that fill this roll, the most common being scarf dragons and Beedrill, I can't find myself making a viable team without lazily throwing on a Scarf Lati/Hydrei to check this mon. I've been successful in checking Serperior most of the time, but I do not want a meta where I need to toss a Scarf Dragon on every team. For that reason I'm leaning towards banning it.

Scolipede: Although this pokemon has a pretty bad offensive typing, its coverage and ability to use a Z move make it really hard to check. If it's 4 moves were known its not hard to check, but with so many different move combinations it turns into an unhealthy guessing game. With SD and Speed Boost you can't really afford to make a wrong prediction. I am leaning towards ban.
I think saying that azu is guaranteed a kill if you dont have amoonguss is over-exaggerating tbh. Tentacruel is a solid answer, atleast the z-haze set as it takes on banded knock aswell and can recover. It also hard counters BD Azu. And its not difficult fitting a moderately bulky water resist or immunity aswell as a fairy resist on your team. Obviously its 50/50 if the azu user clicks waterfall or play rough, but its not a guaranteed kill. Its the same thing with primarina. Only difference is that azu is physical, slower and somewhat bulkier with hp investment. I agree the BD set isnt bad, but it doesnt win games unless you manage to get rid of faster resists.

Serp has a lot of countermeasures actually. Ill list some of them:

Subseed Serp: Hyper voice MAltaria, Crobat, Amoonguss, Infiltrator scarf chendelure (not a bad mon imo), Beedrill, Mpidgeot, Togekiss w/roost

Z-hyper beam is not very easy to directly counter, but way easier to revenge kill:
Muk switches in and forces it out from full atleast once or maybe twice, Crobat, Amoonguss lives one storm followed by z-beam and clear smogs. Basically all the fast megas revenge kill it (Aero, beedrill, pidgeot, manectric also tons of scarf mons like chandelure/nihilego/scarf dragons as you mentioned)

Also figuring out which set it is is very easy. If it has leftovers after hazard damage its subseed, if it doesnt its z-hyper.


I agree fully on scolipede. With +2 and a speed boost revenge killing this thing is impossible without several powerful priority users. And direct counters arent easy to come by either.


Id like to adress kommonium-z. Basically the reason this item hasnt been quick banned is because of fairies. But it still is a pain in the ass. The kommo-o user just has to click poison jab a ciuple of times since the opponent has to deny kommo-o the stat boosts. So the prediction game is heavily in the kommo-o users favour. Obviously if you save your full health azu you take one pjab and rkill, but that also means you have sacked something to kommo-o while at the same time you havent been able to use azu because you cant take 2 rounds of SR damage becuase then you actually have a good chance of dying to +1 pjab. Also worth noting is that with soundproof it as immune to Hyper voice from sylveon and MAltaria so viable fairy answers are limited to physical Maltaria, azu, primarina, togekiss and klefki. I feel its such a now drawback, stand-alone no-skill mon spammed by everyone, and its annoying af
 
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#38
They all hate paralysis, Azu and Scoli hate burns, and Azu and Serp both hate toxic. If a team is prepared with some status and/or bulky and/or very fast/offensive mons, they generally should be able to take care of these new drops. Of course, different things are needed to stop different drops. Overall, these are very significant threats that teams absolutely need an answer to.
 
#39
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 181-213 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes (spikes are lo recoil,which stacks up fast)
252 SpA Latias Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 212-250 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (azumarill with Z belly drum should be near full hp, azumarill with sitrus berry is just outside that range as long as you play smart)
Serperior may get banned, Amoonguss dies to knock off, and most water resists can't kill or are killed after a little prior damage. In the end, Scizor's CB bullet punch is what mostly keeps azumarill from pulling of a sweep. Just posting some information to faciliate discussion, as I'm not sure whether these guys should go or not, but these calcs are pretty important. Rotom W and Rotom Mow are probably the most reliable revenge killers
 

Eyan

c'est la vie
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#40
  • Azumarill
When Azumarill was first retested in SM UU, I voted to unban it. Now that I've got the chance to use it again, my sentiments and arguments then still apply and then some. It hits hard and has access to priority amongst other things, but I don't think anyone competent would really think it's broken at this point in time (reminder that Jolly Crawdaunt hits harder than Adamant Azumarill). If we're looking at its typing + bulk, keep in mind how slow it is, which means you're eating into that bulk if you invest in Speed, especially if you're even trying to switch into hits in the first place. Choice Band is the best set by far due how valuable the immediate boost in power is. Its Choice-locked state is pretty exploitable though and hence forced out. A lot of its switch-in opportunities are largely based on prediction games on what the foe intends to use in order to not either get severely weakened or even 2HKOed. On the other hand, Belly Drum sets have been pretty underwhelming to me. You should never be sweeping with +6 Azumarill in this meta outside of situations where any sweeper would easily clean up anyway or when I'd be cleaning with Aqua Jet from Choice Band Azumarill as well. This isn't to say the set is bad, it's just nothing unstoppable compared to the million other setup sweepers you can have on a team. We have sufficient things that are capable of taking a +6 Aqua Jet and revenge killing it, which isn't hard anyway due to the nature of it trying to set up. A lot of times you're better off simply breaking early-game with it. There's no way I'm going to want to ban this.

  • Serperior
For Serperior, SubSeed has been the most successful for me, since it allows you to really wear down and sometimes beat its checks like Alolan Muk in preparation for a potential late-game sweep without having to rely on teammates too much. That said, other sets have been pretty fun to toy with as well, with Taunt + Synthesis being the biggest "fuck you" to a lot of standard stall teams and Normalium Z to mainly mess with offense. I originally thought Defog would be ass on this thing (how does it even use it anyway), but after seeing hogg talk about it and Hikari using it, I gave it a shot myself and it was pretty decent actually. The two moves you really need are Leaf Storm + Hidden Power Fire, so you can viably slap on Defog as one of the fillers, with the other being something like Giga Drain for recovery, Dragon Pulse for coverage against Pokemon like Latias, or one of its numerous support moves if you feel like it. Overall though, while it's good, and I did make it sound like such an amazing Pokemon, it suffers from how weak it is, so it's not gonna be sweeping any team right off the bat unless the opposing team is ridiculously weak to it. Otherwise, if you tried cleaning early, you'll find yourself clicking Leaf Storm once and forced out. For reference, a shitty calc that Cynde mentioned on discord:

+6 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 364-430 (84.2 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

The fact that a +6 Serperior can't even get the guaranteed KO on Amoonguss after Stealth Rock with Hidden Power Fire shows a lot. I just feel that a lot of people need to stop thinking of Serperior in terms of it already having a +2 boost because that simply isn't the case. I'm voting do not ban for this.

  • Scolipede
I'm torn for Scolipede. Personally, when I use it, it either does a ton of work and destroys most teams after a single turn or it does absolutely nothing. On paper, it's able to decimate any team with the right coverage, but there's that specific issue of the choice of moves you're making for it. You're always going to be walled by something when running Scolipede. However, the risk typically lies more on the team facing Scolipede than the user, since they'd never know what coverage it's actually running, and they could scout for the moves, but for a Pokemon like Scolipede, scouting against it is very easily exploited between Speed Boost, the potential Swords Dance, and Z-Moves like Hydro Vortex and Tectonic Rage.

That said, everything above is assuming it's already at +2, since without a boost, it's actually fairly weak. As far as finding setup opportunities goes, its weakness to Stealth Rock doesn't help, and while setting up on stuff like Fairy-types is nice, a lot of Scolipede sets don't even run Poison Jab (you'd tend to see Megahorn + Aqua Tail + Earthquake mostly). Even if you did run Poison Jab, the same logic applies where you can theoretically set up on something, but you lack the coverage to OHKO it, so you end up at +2 but severely weakened. As much as seeing Sacri' getting constantly swept by Scolipede is amusing and I'd like for him to start a riot should it not be banned, I'm gonna need to use this thing specifically more.

  • Kommonium Z
Just looking at other stuff, people definitely want Kommonium Z gone. Admittedly, I have had extremely limited experience with that set (or sets) at the moment, but I don't even need to know whether it's broken to know that arguing that Kommo-o "forces everyone to run Fairy-types now" is not a very good ban argument. Fairy-types have always been a great asset in teams ever since they were introduced and especially so in SM UU. They're useful in checking a whole slew of threats outside of just Kommo-o, so in this instance, if you're supposedly being forced to run a Fairy-type, call it more of an adaptation to the meta like any other threat than a severe teambuilding restriction. Even then, there's stuff like Mantine that's not a Fairy-type but is able to take on it on and use Haze, so think a little more. For what it's worth, I have seen stupid things like Pak topping the ladder with Aurorus + Alolan Sandslash Aurora Veil + Kommo-o, so we'll see. Nothing besides these 4 threats stand out as debatable to me.

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 181-213 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes (spikes are lo recoil,which stacks up fast)
252 SpA Latias Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 212-250 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (azumarill with Z belly drum should be near full hp, azumarill with sitrus berry is just outside that range as long as you play smart)
Serperior may get banned, Amoonguss dies to knock off, and most water resists can't kill or are killed after a little prior damage. In the end, Scizor's CB bullet punch is what mostly keeps azumarill from pulling of a sweep. Just posting some information to faciliate discussion, as I'm not sure whether these guys should go or not, but these calcs are pretty important. Rotom W and Rotom Mow are probably the most reliable revenge killers
Starmie is already a pretty bad example for a Belly Drum Azumarill check, but I'll look past that. Your second calc is what really confuses the hell out of me, though. Z-Belly Drum Azumarill would never be at full HP unless your opponent somehow gives you two free turns to set up a Belly Drum and then Z-Belly Drum the next turn to get yourself back to 100% when Azumarill isn't attacking. If that's the case, then yes, Latias definitely can't check Azumarill after setting up. As far as Sitrus Berry variants go, "as long as you play smart" is extremely flimsy. This only applies if Azumarill takes 0 damage prior to setting up, which is unrealistic. Even switching into Stealth Rock puts Azumarill in range after Belly Drum aside from a literal min roll. I realise that this is only one example, but this type of confirmation bias mentality that assumes the most optimal conditions applies as a whole to dealing with Azumarill. In reality, things like weakening all its checks and Water-resistant Pokemon to be within range is something that applies to a lot of sweepers, so don't overreach there.
 
#41
  • Kommonium Z
Just looking at other stuff, people definitely want Kommonium Z gone. Admittedly, I have had extremely limited experience with that set (or sets) at the moment, but I don't even need to know whether it's broken to know that arguing that Kommo-o "forces everyone to run Fairy-types now" is not a very good ban argument. Fairy-types have always been a great asset in teams ever since they were introduced and especially so in SM UU. They're useful in checking a whole slew of threats outside of just Kommo-o, so in this instance, if you're supposedly being forced to run a Fairy-type, call it more of an adaptation to the meta like any other threat than a severe teambuilding restriction. Even then, there's stuff like Mantine that's not a Fairy-type but is able to take on it on and use Haze, so think a little more. For what it's worth, I have seen stupid things like Pak topping the ladder with Aurorus + Alolan Sandslash Aurora Veil + Kommo-o, so we'll see. Nothing besides these 4 threats stand out as debatable to me.
Its not that you have to run fairies. Thats fine. Because as you say you really need fairies for dragons anyway, unless youre running empoleon or aggron. The problem is the 50/50 scenarios it creates every single time it comes in. Its optimal set is the mixed set with scales, pjab drain punch and dd imo. Its always like this: "Do i switch to my fairy and take 50+ % from poison jab or do I go into something that can take a poison jab and force it out, but probably gets destroyed by the z-move?". I dont think that is very healthy personally, and its definetively very frustrating to play against
 

Eyan

c'est la vie
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#42
Its not that you have to run fairies. Thats fine. Because as you say you really need fairies for dragons anyway, unless youre running empoleon or aggron. The problem is the 50/50 scenarios it creates every single time it comes in. Its optimal set is the mixed set with scales, pjab drain punch and dd imo. Its always like this: "Do i switch to my fairy and take 50+ % from poison jab or do I go into something that can take a poison jab and force it out, but probably gets destroyed by the z-move?". I dont think that is very healthy personally, and its definetively very frustrating to play against
I'm not sure if you're simply commenting about Kommo-o or countering my post, but fwiw, my entire post regarding Kommonium Z came with 0 input on whether to ban it or not. I was simply posting to tell everyone that using the fairy argument is dumb because I've seen it a lot. That said, I understand your point and its validity.
 

Hogg

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UU & Tour Head
#43
Yeah I didn't think Azu was broken before, I don't think Azu is broken now. It's a pain in the but to switch into, but less so than other similar wallbreakers like Primarina and Crawdaunt. It has some definite niches over those two (decent bulk and defensive typing versus Crawdaunt, usable priority versus Prima) and it's something I've been really enjoying using, but I don't think it's anywhere close to being overwhelming. Belly Drum is ridiculously overhyped and in over ninety games on the post-Azu ladder with four separate teams, I have literally never been swept by it once. With a ton of team support it's passable, but generally the most it does is claim a single kill and then do a chunk to something with Aqua Jet as it gets revenge killed. That's useful, and can help open holes for your other teammates, but it is not broken.

Serperior is something I'm still kind of on the fence with. On the one hand, yeah, it has a lot of problems: it hits like a wet noodle before a boost, and there are some fairly good 'mons that pretty much eternally cockblock it (Amoongus being the big one, and considering how good Amoongus is in this meta, that's a big deal). On the other hand, it's fast enough to pressure the shit out of offense and still manages to fuck with any bulky team lacking Amoongus, Moltres or a Sap Sipper 'mon. It pairs really well with anything that takes advantage of Amoongus, such as SD Gliscor.

The two main sets I've been using have been SubSeed and offensive Defog, and both are great at their respective roles. This thing is really on the borderline for me: enough counterplay exists that I'm not sure I'm comfortable banning it right now, but I think if it remains it is going to easily become one of the most meta-defining threats we have.

Serperior @ Miracle Seed
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Defog


Scolipede on the other hand I think should probably just go. It's incredibly easy to set up despite its low bulk, and has the ability to punch through all but a few of its answers thanks to a surprisingly deep offensive movepool and the introduction of Z-moves. It often gets multiple opportunities to set up in a game, coming in more or less for free on things like standard Klefki (at +3 it outspeeds everything in the meta even when paralyzed, so Klefki is often just free boosts unless it runs a suboptimal move like HP Fire), can function both as a revenge killer and late-game sweeper, and has the flexibility to threaten a wide variety of teams. Its most reliable defensive answer is probably Quagsire, which is very difficult to use outside of stall because of how otherwise passive it is, while balanced and offensive teams are forced to rely on strong priority from the likes of CB Scizor or Azumarill or else hope that it's not packing the coverage move necessary to punch through its counters. I'm not going to pretend it's totally unstoppable but unless the meta adjusts a bit more, I think it's just too much for UU.

As for the other big question, Kommonium-Z, I'm still a bit undecided. Immediately after Ultra dropped it seemed like it was definitely banworthy, but the meta is adjusting around it a bit more now. People are learning to play around Clangorous Soulblaze a bit better, and the existence of some hard answers like Mantine definitely help it. That being said, I still think it's really close to being overwhelming. The set I've been having the most success with is the one geeezer mentioned (DD/Drain Punch/Poison Jab/Clanging Scales), which takes advantage of Kommo-o's incredible bulk post-Clangorous and allows it to still set up in the face of Fairies or opposing Soundproof Kommos. If it does successfully get a Clangorous off it can almost always manage another boost, which puts it out of range of Scarf users, and it can easily absorb most priority attacks (Mamo's Ice Shard does 40% max to 0/0 Kommo-o after a boost) and recover with Drain Punch. It definitely needs team support to sweep, but way less so than other things the community previously deemed overwhelming for UU such as Xurkitree and Latias-Mega.
 

Sacri'

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#44
I've built and played a lot this week as I wanted to be ready for my championships game so I may as well give my thoughts on the metagame as a whole. I've made 22 different teams before I came up with something I truly liked. Whenever a huge shift happened during SM, I needed a few days to get used to building again. Obviously, I realize that 4 new threats and a bunch of new defog users implies very significant changes to the metagame but it still felt different somehow. I'm not sold on which mons I should blame most for the metagame's current instability but I've thought it through enough to come up with a few explanations.

I mostly expected Kommo-O to be incredibly overrated and unreliable but it turns out I was gravely mistaken. I never feel safe facing this 'mon, no matter how hard I try to to prepare for it without making my team unreasonably weak to other things. Slapping a fairy on a team just isn't enough in my experience, preventing it from using its Z move certainly helps but simply switching into this is very annoying. Sure, it isnt that strong but it has such an easy time getting opportunities to get a hit off that it never actually prevents it from putting in work. If you switch into your fairy expecting a DD/Z move but end up catching a coverage move instead, the fairy in question is no longer able to stop it later on. I can't count the amount of times i've let my Scizor/Krook/weakened rotom/Serp/Magneton/Manectric/Muk drop to stab/coverage as I was praying it wouldn't use them as opportunities to get a DD off. It it just too good of a wincondition in the current state of the tier. Now, i'm not saying that preventing it from sweeping is impossible but there are just too many components to consider (is it physical or special ? does it run DD or 4 atks ? is it going to use coverage or will it just go for the sweep ? soundproof or bulletproof ?) when you try to safely handle it. Moonblast Sylveons/Physdef Klefkis (works in theory but is also supposed to laye spikes and handle like 15 different threats)/Fat Altaria/Fat Primarina are all decent counterplays but weakening them isn't particularly hard and revenge killing Kommo with scarf dragons only works if extremely well played. Kommo-O is one of the few mons that I consider much better in practice than in theory, it has definitely contributed to making building much harder so I'm hoping we'll suspect it soon enough.

This'll be much easier to explain. Offenses can manage dealing with this thanks to priority spam but that aside, Scolipede is an absolute nightmare to prep for. It gets to decide what actually beats it by having 3 viable Z moves and it may also run Protect to make it completely impossible to revenge kill by scarfers or faster mons. It has very very few valid counters and it takes advantage of bulky offensive teams and balanced teams like nothing else in the tier. It probably won't be able to sweep from t1 but if played decently it is almost certaintly to put a massive amount of works once its few unreliable checks have been weakened. Don't feel the need to expand more on this, I'm not on the fence regarding this thing, it is the main culprit of the fact that building UU teams has been much harder lately and should therefore be banned.
I was almost certain I wanted to free both of these mons but a discussion with Pearl made me reconsider my opinion. They both have counterplays but somehow they still manage to be very annoying each time I face them. Azumarill in particular has been criminaly underrated, having to guess between banded and bd sets is still very annoying considering that its #1 answer to the banded set will outright drop to +6 knock. I feel like I wouldn't have minded either of them if they had dropped at different times. Those two work incredibly well together, Azumarill being able to pressure the offensive answers of Serp while also weakening Amoonguss to help Serp break it. I might still vote unban on both but my opinion certainly isn't set in stone anymore.

The main thing that I have noticed about my builds is that I use Scarf Lati and Scarf Hydreigon more than ever. Even though they give Azu a hit off, they offer a lot of support to the new mons thanks to Healing Wish and Utrun respectively. I also think that the fact that all 4 of the new mons are sweepers contributed to the troubles I've had building, it obviously feels a bit overwhelming when you get 3 new mons (not counting azu because completely sweeping with bd is hard) that may sweep you if you arent prepared enough.
 
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Eyan

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#45
Just posting to say that apparently Gen 2 VC moves have been done for a few days, so stuff like this is now legal on PS. There's another Azumarill set for you guys to have fun with. Along with that, there's also stuff like Curse Entei, Curse Gliscor, Curse Scizor, and some others to try out now, so enjoy.

 
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#46
Just posting to say that apparently Gen 2 VC moves have been done for a few days, so stuff like this is now legal on PS. There's another Azumarill set for you guys to have fun with. Along with that, there's also stuff like Curse Entei, Curse Gliscor, Curse Scizor, and some others to try out now, so enjoy.

On my phone sorry for quoting the image, just wanted to add that they’re locked to their hidden abilities, so much to my dismay when i tried this as it came out you can only use curse on light metal scizor making it scizor hit like a wet paper towel without being at like +4 or above, if like me you run only bulk investment. With that said, curse, roost, bp and filler beats sd scizor without z superpower which is nice.
 
#47


I think people are severely underestimating this snek's potential and oppressivness of one of it sets. That set would be mono-attacking SubSeed + Glare. Given the current meta situation, free subs are quite easy to come by and once behind it, the terror can begin. The idea of the set isn't to straight up 6-0 the opponent, which I have done more times than expected, but it's rather to cripple them down to the point where it's teammates come and clean up the game. Glare is the main issue here becouse para allows you to brute force through your suppossed checks and cripple your revenge killer's speed so it cannot do what it's supposed to.

This whole thing reminds of the Z-Jirachi issue where it's damage wasn't the problem but rather the uncompetitveness that paralysis brings. I see no place for this thing in the UU tier moving forward.
 
#48
Azu and Serperior don't feel as broken as I expected, mostly due to the sheet number of thins running around that check them.

Meanwhile, SD + Z-Move Scolipede is the only one of the 3 that feels suspect worthy; while Azu needs a setup fodder to Belly Drum, and Serp needs Sticky Webs on its side to outspeed almost all of UU, Scolipede only needs to stay 1-2 tuns out to stack Speed Boosts, click SD and then nuke something.

Kommo-o's Z-Move set is good, but it has to be used around the mid-game to not get hazed, beaten by a scarfer or not walled by a fairy, and even then, there's nothing stopping you from predicting whatever's gonna switch and throw a coverage move in advance. Belly Drum Kommo-o is arguably even more terrifying imo, but it's way harder to set up here than in OU for some weird reason, so I don't really see it catching on anytime soon.
 

Moutemoute

All I need is 5 minutes.. ♪
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#49


Firstable let's talk about Kommo-O and Kommonium Z. I've seen a lot of people stated that Kommonium Z may be too much for the Underused and I kinda disagree with that. For sure, Kommo-O received some great buff (acces to Drain Punch / Close Combat / Kommonium Z) and can be seen like a real threat now in Underused and not anymore a niche Pokemon. But tbh, after testing Kommo-O with Kommonium Z (with DD / Drain Punch and Poison Jab), I found that it was much more complicated to use in game than on the paper. You can't just P-Jab everytime predicting your oppo to switch directly on its fairy type, people are not dumb and it's clearly a 50/50 for both player. If Kommo-O player fail and Poison Jab on something which didn't care while predicting Azumarill / any other fairy it can really get screwed and lost its Kommo-O and Z-User. Furthermore, even at +1 in Speed, it can be easily RK by other Scarfer especially Hydreigon / Latias :

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. +1 0 HP / 0- SpD Kommo-o: 296-350 (101.7 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. +1 0 HP / 0- SpD Kommo-o: 270-320 (92.7 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

That mean that you need to get your Z-Move Boost + a Speed Boost with Dragon Dance and it's clearly not that easy even with Kommo-O amazing bulk. I think that Z-Kommo-O is a "New toy syndrom" Pokemon and we should wait a stabilization of the UU Metagame.



People already said everything on this Pokemon. Clearly not as much threatening than before. Great typing which allows it to check Hydreigon and other cool thing like Infernape Scarf lacking of Thunder Punch / Gunk Shot. I'm pretty hyped by the Sap Sipper Perish Song Whirlpool test, really need to test it (Liquidation pretty useful and clearly better than Waterfall).

EDIT for Azumarill : I fell in love with Perish Song + Whirlpool Sap Sipper Azumarill.. this thing is just so fun to use

Azumarill (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Perish Song
- Toxic
- Protect

This thing is kinda amazing. Even without SpD, it can hardcounter Sceptile-Mega, Serperior and non Sludge Bomb Amoonguss while dealing with Hydreigon, Infernape and even Kommo-O. Really cool set tbh.

RIP Tentacruel + Kommo-O : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-665692365




Really cool Pokemon. Great speed and sufficient Movepool. I don't think it deserve to be ban, it's a great Pokemon for sure but not ban worthy imo. It has some really good answer (Amoonguss, Scarf Nape and Pidgeot-Mega can easily RK or come on a non boosted Leaf Storm, get rekt by Sap Sipper Azumarill lol).




No opinion on this thing, I don't especially struggle vs Scolipede and I found it pretty meh when I tested it...I think I don't use it well ;_;


Overall I like this new UU, new Pokemon, new move, let see what we will get with December shift O/
 
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#50


Firstable let's talk about Kommo-O and Kommonium Z. I've seen a lot of people stated that Kommonium Z may be too much for the Underused and I kinda disagree with that. For sure, Kommo-O received some great buff (acces to Drain Punch / Close Combat / Kommonium Z) and can be seen like a real threat now in Underused and not anymore a niche Pokemon. But tbh, after testing Kommo-O with Kommonium Z (with DD / Drain Punch and Poison Jab), I found that it was much more complicated to use in game than on the paper. You can't just P-Jab everytime predicting your oppo to switch directly on its fairy type, people are not dumb and it's clearly a 50/50 for both player. If Kommo-O player fail and Poison Jab on something which didn't care while predicting Azumarill / any other fairy it can really get screwed and lost its Kommo-O and Z-User. Furthermore, even at +1 in Speed, it can be easily RK by other Scarfer especially Hydreigon / Latias
I couldnt disagree more. You talk about kommo-o creating 50/50 scenarios everytime it comes in as a good thing when its clearly awful. There is never one pokemon you know you can switch into this thing. I think I have managed to build pretty well since the drops, and ive been consistently over 1600 on the ladder with 5 different teams. All those 5 teams did well and have mostly completely different pokemon, and all of them got swept by kommo-o more than anything else. All of them have fairy type. Scolipede is also a problem, unless i use the team with lo mamoswine and banded scizor. But Kommo-o is the one that needs to go asap
 
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