np: USUM UU Stage 6.1 - Échame La Culpa (Breloom unbanned, Buzzwole remains BL)

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#1



First thing I want to announce is that we have decided to revisit one of our old tiering decisions: Mega Houndoom's ban. Mega Houndoom's ban was fairly controversial at the time it occurred. Nobody doubted Houndoom was extremely powerful with Drought support and that it was the main thing pushing the playstyle over the edge; however, the way we dealt with the Sun-related problem wasn't consistent with the way we dealt with Drizzle. Drought is significantly weaker than Drizzle, as the latter has much better abusers and overall team synergy, so you can't directly compare both playstyles, but there are some big similarities between them. Drought is evidently not broken without Mega Houndoom, but it's quite easy to see Mega Houndoom isn't broken outside of Drought-based playstyles and those didn't consist of a single abuser. Why ban Mega Houndoom / Kingdra / Mega Swampert instead of the other abusers that enable Drought / Drizzle? you don't break those playstyles with a single Pokemon.

The original ban wasn't consistent with the way we dealt with a similar problem, and a compelling case had not been made that Mega Houndoom was independently broken, with no support other than Drought itself. We believe the original decision wasn't the correct one, so we'll do it right this time: Drought is now banned from UU and Mega Houndoom will be introduced back into the tier. Technically this means we can unban Mega Charizard-Y, but it wouldn't be available for use regardless.

But wait, there's more...



We will be suspecting two Pokemon and using the new public voting system to decide their tiering. The Pokemon being tested are: Breloom and Buzzwole. The tier has changed drastically since they were in the tier and there are significant more ways of playing around them now, so we feel it's worth testing their effect on the current UU metagame.

The ladder requirements will be as follows:
  • The N value for this suspect will be 20, the COIL requirement will be 2650. You are required to have a minimum GXE of 82 or higher to achieve ladder reqs.
  • Members of the UU Council now have the following requirements in order to vote in a suspect (bolded is a new requirement):
    • A minimum of 35 games on the suspect ladder, with a GXE of 82 or higher, and
    • One "decent quality" NP post (decent quality is to be determined by the tier leaders).
  • Players with recent official tour success in the meta may qualify using council requirements rather than ladder requirements.
    • Any player with a top 8 finish in the most recent iteration of an official SM UU tour may vote in a suspect test after playing a minimum of 35 games on the suspect ladder, with a GXE of 82 or higher.
    • Qualifying tours include UU Majors, UU Open, UU Ladder Tour and UU Championships. Only the most recent iteration of the tour qualifies.
The ladder will be going up tomorrow, January 26th, in approximately 24 hours and will be up till February 4th. Mega Houndoom will be dropping directly to UU and won't be part of this suspect test as anything other than a regular UU Pokemon.
 
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#7
Mega Buzzloom

I think allowing Buzzwole into the tier will make stall a lot better as, strong physical attackers have been pretty threatening for the playstyle like, Guts Heracross, Mega Aero, SD Gliscor, and Banded/Normalium Z Bewear. Have fun pif. With Amoonguss, Gliscor, Latias, and Mega Alt having good usage in the tier, Breloom won't be able to spore + sd that easily. Mega Mane is a good check to both threats as well. The meta has definitely changed for Buzzwole + Breloom to not be auto broken, on paper. Mega Houndoom will probably be a good threat to have in the tier, considering how it can set up a nasty plot or a flame charge since it does threaten a lot of top threats (not including Buzzwole). I think UU will change drastically with these unbanned threats.
 

tondas

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#8
Okay, allow me to move on to a more serious discussion.

I'm genuinely excited to be able to play around with Breloom. It's always been a nasty pokemon, whether it'd be SubPunch or Technician. It definitely doesn't appreciate the presence of Latias, Mega Altaria, Gengar and even Scizor to an extent, so I see this standing a chance in the UU metagame.

A mon I feel like is going to be used a lot during this testing phase is Crobat. Infiltrator Brave Bird though Breloom's and Buzzwole's Substitutes, KO Mega Houndoom after SR and a little bit of prior damage, and being able to deal residual damage through Taunt and U-Turn makes it easier for the likes of Breloom to sweep late-game.
 
#10
Personally I feel that Buzzwole will be OK. Since last time it was here it gained a lot of new checks - Mega Altaria, Mega Pidgeot, and of course Mega Houndoom. Pretty much any faster Special Attacker can force it out. This is all theorymon of course, but I'm looking forward to trying out the unchained Pokémon.
 
#11
I have to say, UU is looking better and better by the minute. This isn't because I think the tier is moving in a direction that I will use the tag words, 'healthier' or 'more balanced' but because it is moving in directions that aren't obviously bad. Half a year ago, BL was larger than it had ever been before, and in many ways had mons who internally checked one another as well as mons who though powerful were not without adaptation that could handle them. In my eyes, it seemed between UU and OU a gap was appearing. I happen to think this is more to do with OU accepting a ceiling that is extraordinarily high than UU's baseline being too low, but either way, I saw it as a problem to have so many mons without a home.

As such, I thought Serp and Azu were great mons to release intially, with serp bringing a fairly powerful grass mon that also provided offensive defogs and Azu being mighty strong but needing considerable wear on many balance mons to sweep (including serp). The thing though that seemed key about these mons though, was that if they were going to be too much, it was going to be on the basis of single sets or single niches; Serps storms and Azus belly drumming. The reality was, UU would either find a way to deal with leaf storm sweeps, and +6 aqua jets or not. This isn't to say other sets don't exist that are good (perish trap has surprised me with its viability), just that they lacked the ability to 'break/distort' the tier.

For that reason, I think more caution is needed with breloom to an extent, and buzzwole especially. Breloom has a couple of viable sets, but the tier ability to handle spore seems reasonable. Amoongus and Gliscor are already fairly good defensive mons, and Latias offers a good tool to handle loom to almost any style. There is a risk with this mon though. With Hippo being out of favor and volt-turn weakened compared to washtoms day, as well as aggresive hazard setters being fairly limited atm I think Sash Breloom could have a pretty nasty effect on offense. Klefki and Gliscor handle breloom fairly well, but terrakion, azelf, and even possibly mamo all have issues with sash loom which compounds an offensive weakness to technician mach punch already. Gengar might at least be an offensive solution to this mon though, we will see. Either way, I think loom is only marginally more difficult to assess than serp and azu because broadly, spore will be the crux of this mons viability.

Buzzwole is the only mon that worries me, but perhaps this is exactly what we want from a suspect. So far I think suspects up to and including this one have been fairly easy to assess. It is true that breloom has two very scary sets, but I think it will still be fairly simple to determin if what breloom is doing is too much for the tier to handle. For fairly obvious reasons, Buzzwole changes this. I think the first thing of note, is that this mon has a lot more things it can do than all of the aforementioned mons. Buzz can wallbreak and be a wall, he can sub down and cause massive trouble for some teams, or speed up with a scarf (I have to say, I don't imagine this too viable), with beast boost even sweeping cannot be out of mind. The mon has moves which can handle many diferent threats, though usually not at the same time, and with a sub, is damaging almost anything in the tier. Amoongus might make it run bug stab, but we might also see a z-move flyinium set (again I am not sure about the viability). Buzzwole seems to be balanced whenever you asses a single set. In addition, some mons, like crobat (credit to posters above) offer fairly strong solutions to it almost all the time. But, whether you can know the set of buzzwole fast enough to stop it doing something extremely dangerous for your team, as well as what it offers in defensive utility alone, make this a mon whose impact on the tier is harder to predict and harder to account for in team building.

I don't think that means that suspecting buzzwole is a bad idea, on the contrary, I think it was a very good idea and fits well with my arguments for reducing the size of BL. However, the caliber of debate on buzzwoles impact alone, I think is going to have to be far better than for any of the other mons thus far suspected. I hope that folks more eloquent and competent than me will contribute to this discussion because I think it will be sorely needed here.

As a final point, I just want to emphasise how good a job I think UU is doing compared to OU. I think OU is stagnating for fear of breaking. It has mons in it that are fairly obviously holding the tier together but who also have features which in years gone would have made them very dubious mons to keep in OU. To me it looks like they need to risk changing things to improve. By contrast, I thought UU was already in a fairly enjoyable form, and yet you keep pushing limits and testing boundaries to see what could be better. For obvious reasons, I think reaching for the best the tier can be, is better than settling with something most don't enjoy for fear it could be worse.

(Edit: put krook when intending mamo)
 
#12
Personally I feel that Buzzwole will be OK. Since last time it was here it gained a lot of new checks - Mega Altaria, Mega Pidgeot, and of course Mega Houndoom. Pretty much any faster Special Attacker can force it out. This is all theorymon of course, but I'm looking forward to trying out the unchained Pokémon.
If I'm being honest here. I don't think it's fair to state Mega Houndoom as a solid check to buzzwole because I believe that a scarf buzzwole or even Substitute Buzzwole will become very common in the tier. Both of these sets beat Houndoom because Buzzwole can set up Substitute on a switch or if it's scarf buzzwole it would outpace houndoom anyway. That being said, I believe that Mega Altaria will remain a top tier mon, but a pokemon like Mega Manectric can become a new toy to play with. The core of Buzzwole + Alolan Marowak is a possibility to counter Mega Manectric, but that will require you to get a solid counter to houndoom, whether that's SpD Gliscor or Mega Aerodactyl to outpace and revenge kill is up to you.
 
#13
Coming out of the closet blue here, but this suspect test should be interesting. Buzzwole was a pokemon that was broken during the hawlucha era (can't pinpoint the period, post june drops I think). Should be an interesting addition for the stall and semi-stall archetypes. I could also see bulky sub sets working in more balanced/bulky offense archetypes and even something insane... like scarf (which, in practice, could be underwhelming).

Personally, I'm excited that Mega Doom (and drought) are back. I could see this being a potential nuisance for HO teams but with the recent surge of TR, I think it should be manageable. Who knows, it still could be borked broken.

Out of all the drops, Breloom looks the most threatening imo. Only a handful of mons can switch into spore+STABs yet the two that do (azu and amoon) man-handle breloom (note: IIRC, breloom can very easily run natural gift, so keep that in mind before you risk amoongus). Still, it would be very interesting to see how it will turn out in the current metagame.

So there you go, that's what I think about this change (keeping in mind I'm sleep deprived and that I'm garbage at UU).

p.s Agree with Too Cute to Kill on most of his points. However, we do need to keep in mind that there could be a case of broken checking broken if we do end up unbanning BL mons too quickly. Bearing in mind that's coming from someone who probabaly won't be able to ladder for the reqs so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Wording Edits
 
#14
I don't think Scarf Buzzwole will be a good set. It still can't outrun Mega Beedrill, none of its Fighting STABs are good to be locked into (apart from maybe Drain Punch) and overall Terrakion can do a Scarf set much better, as its faster and has better STAB coverage. Personally I think its main sets will be Sub Punch, Choice Band and possibly a physically defensive set using Lunge, Toxic, Roost and any of Drain Punch, Ice Punch or Poison Jab.
 
#15
Well God Damn it someone already did a post on Crobat. Guess I'll just talk about the new unban we have to our disposal.
GUYS I THINK ARCANINE MIGHT BE VIABLE AGAIN CAUSE OF THESE UNBANS AND TESTS

Mega Houndoom: Long story short I'm glad this got unbanned, because I didn't agree with it getting banned earlier, because of reasons said in post. What's even more fabulous is that this thing got unbanned right when a bunch of the fighting types in the meta are weak to Fire. I think this guy will do good in this meta, with Nasty Plot breaking many Balance and Bulky Offense teams, and that one weird set with Flame Charge can break Hyper Offense teams. Although it can not run both NP and Flame Charge, as Nasty Plot will usually need Sludge Bomb or for Mega Altaria and other fairies. Good news is we finally have a fire type that outpaces Serperior. One thing I see it having trouble with is Water Types (and there is a lot of them), so I would personally recommend pairing it with something like Primarina, Latias, or Raikou OR POSSIBLY THAT BRAND NEW BRELOOM

Checks: Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Crawdaunt, Infernape, Alolan Muk, Mamoswine, Swampert/Seismitoad, Terrakion, Volcanion, Sharpedo, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill, Scarf Fighting Types, and Sylveon.

Counters: Hydreigon, Empoleon, Blissey, Mantine, Nihilego, Tentacruel, and Suicune

That's a big list right there, aint it. Don't worry though, I tried making a list of Good Matchups this thing had and failed caused the list was going to be too large. And not to mention about over half of that Checks list gets eliminated after a Nasty Plot which it can set up quite frequently. Not to mention only one check resists flying and only 2 counters do, so maybe a bird CROBAT can help you out here, then pair it with a ground type such as Swampert or Hippowdon.
 
#16
I realize this is not the time because of the new drops and all. Also I think im known at this point to mostly write shitty posts, but ill try to put together something well thought out here.

I think stall is way too strong in this tier. And with buzzwole dropping I imagine its only gonna get worse. Earlier I argued unaware was the problem, but Ive faced other stall teams without unaware since and changed my mind. I believe now that what makes stall too good is blissey. I have faced alot of different stall, and while Alo/Bliss/Quag is seen on 90% of them, you can make good stall teams without Alo and Quag. What I am yet to see tho, is a stall team without Blissey. It is on every single stall team ever made. Its just way too good to pass up, since it basically invalidates all special attackers.


. Take this team for example. What does actually beat a well played stall team like this? Gliscor can switch in on the typical breakers like NP luke and Heracross and force them out. Muk takes on salazzle etc etc. If you have a team with hazards and a lot of strong breakers and you play extremely well and pull all the right doubles all the time and keep up momentum its possible to win, but my point is that teambuilding is reduced to either trying to make a good team which loses to stall or having your options extremely reduced but having an OK stall matchup.

The reason I believe Blissey to be broken is how enormous its special bulk is. While alomomola, aggron, quag and the rest can be pressured and chipped away at with the right predictions its a whole different thing with blissey. It takes so disgustingly little damage from special attacks that you have to predict like 5 times in order to get any meaningful damage. And there arent really any offensive spikers in this tier and there are so many good hazard control options that chipping away with hazards wont work.

My point is that if Blissey was to be removed. Stall players would have to experiment with alternatives like umbreon instead. Stall would still be perfectly usable but not so insanely difficult to deal with like it is now. I honestly think its weird if no one else agrees with me on this.
 

explodingdaisies

What's the point of talking if nobody ever listens
is a Pre-Contributor
#17
Houndoom can run sludge bomb to deal with fairies like altaria, azu and sylveon. Also swampert doesnt wanna eat a +2 dark pulse.

In regards to @geezer, blissey is NOT broken. Yes stall has gotten better, but there are a plethora of stallbreakers and wall breakers that threaten both stall and fat builds and don't leave you hopelessly outmatched by offense. Some include: heracross, mamo, stallbreak gliscor and crawdaunt to name a few. There's also more niche stallbreakers like sub roost kyurem and moltres. The main point is that if you struggle with stall THAT much to the point that you think blissey is broke, you need to take a look at your teambuilding and learn to build better
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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#18
I'm only in this thread cause I was tagged in a meme that I posted a while back but as I proceed to read all these new posts from the newest back, I just wanna reply to this one real quick:

I realize this is not the time because of the new drops and all. Also I think im known at this point to mostly write shitty posts, but ill try to put together something well thought out here.

I think stall is way too strong in this tier. And with buzzwole dropping I imagine its only gonna get worse. Earlier I argued unaware was the problem, but Ive faced other stall teams without unaware since and changed my mind. I believe now that what makes stall too good is blissey. I have faced alot of different stall, and while Alo/Bliss/Quag is seen on 90% of them, you can make good stall teams without Alo and Quag. What I am yet to see tho, is a stall team without Blissey. It is on every single stall team ever made. Its just way too good to pass up, since it basically invalidates all special attackers.


. Take this team for example. What does actually beat a well played stall team like this? Gliscor can switch in on the typical breakers like NP luke and Heracross and force them out. Muk takes on salazzle etc etc. If you have a team with hazards and a lot of strong breakers and you play extremely well and pull all the right doubles all the time and keep up momentum its possible to win, but my point is that teambuilding is reduced to either trying to make a good team which loses to stall or having your options extremely reduced but having an OK stall matchup.

The reason I believe Blissey to be broken is how enormous its special bulk is. While alomomola, aggron, quag and the rest can be pressured and chipped away at with the right predictions its a whole different thing with blissey. It takes so disgustingly little damage from special attacks that you have to predict like 5 times in order to get any meaningful damage. And there arent really any offensive spikers in this tier and there are so many good hazard control options that chipping away with hazards wont work.

My point is that if Blissey was to be removed. Stall players would have to experiment with alternatives like umbreon instead. Stall would still be perfectly usable but not so insanely difficult to deal with like it is now. I honestly think its weird if no one else agrees with me on this.
Unless that Gliscor is running Wing Attack, SD Hera 6-0es that very cleanly once it gets an SD up. Blissey is an annoying special sponge to take down, but it's definitely not broken...It has some severely exploitable flaws that keep it from being broken, the biggest one being that poor Defense and being generally very passive to the point it really only works on Balance/Stall (or those weird AloBliss Offense archetypes). I mean sure, even if you get rid of Blissey and put Umbreon in its spot, the dynamic of the team is mostly still the same, it's just that Umbreon is a bit easier to pressure with Special Attacks and is even easier for mons like Cobalion to switch into. If you're having trouble with this kinda stall, as disgusting as it looks, you just need to adapt more creative ways of breaking it.

Some other weapons to use against this kind of stall would be: Firium Z Salazzle (sorry Sage I know Poisonium Z is the usual answer, but one big draw is Firium Z actually murders Muk at +2, and is the only real reason to use Firium Z: +2 252 SpA Salazzle Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 360-424 (86.9 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO), Work Up Mega Pidgeot, SubWisp Hex Gengar, CM Taunt Chandelure, and even the newcomers SD Breloom (Grass-types that can break Blissey are actually a threat to Stall just by virtue of being anti-AloBliss) and Buzzwole (assuming Toxic + Ice Punch) are capable of breaking down stall. Try some of 'em out
 
#19
geeezer SubPunch Buzzwole beats pretty much that entire team if it can get in safely. Focus Punch wrecks everything on that team apart from Gliscor, who can't scratch Buzzwole unless it runs Aerial Ace. Buzz meanwhile can 2HKO it with Ice Punch. Alomomola's Scalds don't break its Subs, Quagsire is 2HKod by Focus Punch, Blissey just straight up dies and while Aggron can't break its Subs and even with Filter still drops to 2 Focus Punches. Also doesn't stall normally run Mega Steelix?
 
#20
Gengar just doesnt beat stall easy as that. Same with chandelure (especially stall with muk) Work up pidgeot loses to aggron. Breloom loses to altaria and amoongus. Buzzwole seems like a good stallbreaker tho. Havent tried it yet.

I think the fact that you guys dont know that stall gliscors run flying stab means you havent played stall much. And no aggron is always used over steelix. I dont want to argue anymore about this just wanted to share my opinion. The z-fire salazzle was useful tho. Thx for the tip:)
 

Moutemoute

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is a Tiering Contributor
#21
Could you avoid blaming Staller ?
It's not their fault is you can't beat stall.

I just think that when you build a team, you don't take enough into account Stall team which meant that when you face one stall, you don't have the tools to break through them.

There is a plethora of Pokemon that can deal with Stall..
 
#22
Could you avoid blaming Staller ?
It's not their fault is you can't beat stall.

I just think that when you build a team, you don't take enough into account Stall team which meant that when you face one stall, you don't have the tools to break through them.

There is a plethora of Pokemon that can deal with Stall..
ahh this shit is so annoying. Youre not saying anything worthwile here at all. Wtf do you know about me not beating stall. Of course I can beat stall. Stop talking about me. Thats not my point if you read my post. Im not saying its impossible. I am saying however that I think its too strong of a playstyle rn. Thats my last. Promise. Unless this guy writes som bullshit again.
 
#24
I realize this is not the time because of the new drops and all. Also I think im known at this point to mostly write shitty posts, but ill try to put together something well thought out here.

I think stall is way too strong in this tier. And with buzzwole dropping I imagine its only gonna get worse. Earlier I argued unaware was the problem, but Ive faced other stall teams without unaware since and changed my mind. I believe now that what makes stall too good is blissey. I have faced alot of different stall, and while Alo/Bliss/Quag is seen on 90% of them, you can make good stall teams without Alo and Quag. What I am yet to see tho, is a stall team without Blissey. It is on every single stall team ever made. Its just way too good to pass up, since it basically invalidates all special attackers.


. Take this team for example. What does actually beat a well played stall team like this? Gliscor can switch in on the typical breakers like NP luke and Heracross and force them out. Muk takes on salazzle etc etc. If you have a team with hazards and a lot of strong breakers and you play extremely well and pull all the right doubles all the time and keep up momentum its possible to win, but my point is that teambuilding is reduced to either trying to make a good team which loses to stall or having your options extremely reduced but having an OK stall matchup.

The reason I believe Blissey to be broken is how enormous its special bulk is. While alomomola, aggron, quag and the rest can be pressured and chipped away at with the right predictions its a whole different thing with blissey. It takes so disgustingly little damage from special attacks that you have to predict like 5 times in order to get any meaningful damage. And there arent really any offensive spikers in this tier and there are so many good hazard control options that chipping away with hazards wont work.

My point is that if Blissey was to be removed. Stall players would have to experiment with alternatives like umbreon instead. Stall would still be perfectly usable but not so insanely difficult to deal with like it is now. I honestly think its weird if no one else agrees with me on this.
Sick meme lol. The tier just got two new mons that help dick stall and you make a post saying it's too good. There are so many good stall breakers in the tier. I don't think stall is a problem at all. It's a good playstyle rn but it's not too good nor over centralizing.
 
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