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Voting thread is up. The suspect stays open until midnight, but I'm going to bed. I'll leave the Alt ID thread open and add anyone who posts before midnight tomorrow.
For him it is not about being broken, he only wants to dance.
After playing and watching a lot of games on the ladder I've come to the conclusion that almost everyone have: UU is not prepared for a Buzzer Alarm. I have to admit that when the suspect started one week ago I thought a completely different thing, and of course, I had some arguments: we have Altaria, Mane, Doom, and other things that we didn't have when Buzzwole came here some months ago. But after playing on the ladder I realized that it doesn't matter, this thing have the tools to break through every single team in the metagame and what I've found stupid is does not have a fucking safe switch-in in the entire tier... Well, sorry, it has one: itself.
The only realible answer to non-Roost/BU Buzzwole that I've found is Roost Buzzwole, as it has the typing and the bulk to stop himself, but common guys (those that say ''oh we have BB, and Fairies and it has a poor SpD''), thats unhealthy as fuck, and I want to show you some offensively calcs that I found important and I have not seen in this thread:
252+ Atk Buzzwole Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 304-358 (97.7 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (ZMove kills Max HP Bat and SE kills after rocks)
252+ Atk Buzzwole Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 262-310 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (same thing ^)
252+ Atk Buzzwole Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 190-224 (48.2 - 56.8%) (After stupidly chip damange it is a 2HKO)
252+ Atk Buzzwole Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 242-286 (70.9 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Max HP is 2HKOed too)
I could keep going, but I think that those are enough.
There are mons like Altaria that can try to beat it, because they actually do if they are at 100%, the thing is that you cannot use defensive Alt and try to keep it at 100%, stop the other things that you have to stop with it and in top of that dont lose againts Buzz that can in top of that poison you LOL. This bug is overcentralizing because you cannot prepare enough to it. UU is a tier where you find people building solid teams that can stop almost everything, but I think it is impossible to be ready or predict what set Buzzwole is running without doing a high risk play with a low reward. As was shown before by other people, this Pokemon can eat for breakfast moves like Hyper Voice, Brave Bird, STAB AA and other , in some cases without needing defensive EVs. In my eyes, thats the definition of unhealthy.
If you don't know what is going to happen you are in a bad spot. I truly believe that Buzzwole is not the most threating Pokemon in UU, but the most unhealthy, as you are playing with fire when it comes out, and you know what it is said: if you play with fire, you will get burnt. That being said I've used Raid on it and voted ban as 99% of the voters (I suppose lol.)
Everything about Loom has being said. Low Speed, not the best coverage, poor defenses, etc move the Spore being broken argument apart. Breloom can stay, at least now, if in the future it randomly becomes a giant threat I guess that Echame la culpa 2.0 is going to be a thing. Unban.
This is a weird anti-stall Breloom set that I was trying out. It's obviously walled by ghosts, but you can use Pursuit support or just bank on your opponent not having a ghost. It can be tough for stall to deal with, since it can't be statused or worn down and comes in on Alomomola and Blissey. Breloom's pretty much dead weight against offense without Mach Punch, though. Facade is a cool option in general for Poison Heal Breloom. If you can get a bit of chip on Amoonguss, it'll drop to a +2 Facade.
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 356-419 (82.4 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Breloom has this deadly mind game where if you have a lone counter like Latias / Crobat, you can't actually switch to your counter because of Spore, so you end up sacking even when you have a counter. It can be really frustrating to play around if you don't have Amoonguss / Celebi / Vileplume. I think Loom's frailty and speed tier are enough to let it stay in the tier, but my opinion may be flawed since I did a lot of my laddering with an Amoonguss team.
I only saw 2 Buzzwoles on the ladder. I didn't play much UU before the ban, so it's hard to form an informed opinion on Buzzwole.
With 23 out of 26 votes reported, this suspect is now complete. I will leave the thread open to give the remaining three voters a chance to vote, but as they cannot shift the outcome, I will post results now.
With a 87% majority, Breloom will be unbanned and become legal for play in UU.
Bob brought this to my attention and I think it would be healthy to have some discussion on it. Having a GXE requirement has benefits, but I also believe it has some critical consequences. For starters, we had a total of 23+ voters for this suspect. I looked over the names and all of them seemed to be regulars or tournament players. For the weavile suspect back in October, there was a total of 50+ voters, and for the latiasite suspect back in November we had 65+ voters. A lot of those names from the previous suspects are randoms that wanted to get that vote, not just regulars. Now there is a clear drop off in voters from November to February and I think the main cause of that is the intimidating GXE requirement. This argument can go two ways; One, it is better we have more skilled players qualifying for the vote because that way we ensure the right decision is made, or Two, having less voters discourages outsiders from joining the tier and growing the community.
How does the suspect process work? If you wanted to unban breloom from the start, could you have just done that, or is there a rule you have to suspect a pokemon before it drops out of BL? Why not quick ban weavile? Were uu coucil split on the decision and you put it up to the voters to come up with a conclusion. Most of the uu council voted to have latiosite stay. If you guys wanted to have it in the tier, then why did you suspect it. I'm not inferring anything I'm just trying to understand.
The goal is a fun tier. The more people involved, the more fun the tier is going to be. I know that part of having a fun tier is making it balanced. I'm sure there is that fear of eliminating the GXE requirement would bring about inaccurate vote conclusions. But, do we know what is inaccurate? And if we do, then why doesn't the council make the decisions for us? If you haven't gotten the tone of this post yet, I'm proposing no GXE requirement for future suspects. I think if something needs to be done to balance the tier, the council knows whats best and should do it. If they don't know, suspect it and trust the majority. Also, suspect some random BL mons every now and then to keep the tier popping. Using new toys is fun, even if they break the tier for a week or two.
Last thing I want to talk about is the ladder. I started using semi stall and ending using full stall for my laddering experience. I needed consistent wins to meet the GXE requirement and stall is the most effective play style on ladder. I was not alone on this. The ladder was full of stall players. I cued in to multiple opponents complaining to me that the tier is cancer or toxic or irritating. Obviously they were tired of having long games that they could not win. The ladder is not kind to new players that don't know how to beat stall. It was a very discouraging atmosphere to anyone using the suspect to pick up UU and that's bad.
No GXE requirement would encourage everyone who wants a TC badge just to grind a bunch of games to get another vote to add to their nomination. I’m not on council but I can almost certainly safely say that’s going to be a no go. It also goes another way in that if the minimum game requirement is 65 with no GXE requirement do you really want someone who goes 25-40 on the ladder and never breaks out of 1200s voting on the future of your tier? They haven’t gained a true picture of the metagame nor proven any competence in it other than the ability to sit there and grind a load of games badly. Unless you mean only council votes but if you do it’s really worded kinda badly...
As to your second point of intimidating users with a high ceiling, I think that’s largely dependent on the user themselves because for me, although I didn’t have time this time around, I love the fact that reqs are a challenge and while they’re not going to get you into SPL or any other tournament, they can be seen as an accomplishment to obtain now as compared with beforehand especially for the dudes who haven’t really made it in any tours thus far. Prior to this suspect, any half decent player fed a half decent team could easily obtain reqs with a little time put into it. While there’ll never be a system that completely prevents that, it’s only logical that more difficult reqs will dissuade it, as shown by your own admission that the majority of voters are “UU mains”. I think the current track the council is on right now is the correct one for the tier and your suggestion not only shows a complete ignorance for all the reasons posted by council members in this thread so far, but would be incredibly damaging to the process. Apologies if I’ve read your suggestion wrong, but that’s how I saw it.
your suggestion not only shows a complete ignorance for all the reasons posted by council members in this thread so far, but would be incredibly damaging to the process.
Dude I'm just suggesting that we go back to coil suspects. This seems awfully dramatic... but you are right about the ignorance. I skipped everything past page 1 and didn't know that this was already discussed.
"No GXE requirement would encourage everyone who wants a TC badge just to grind a bunch of games to get another vote to add to their nomination." There is nothing wrong with that. Also, I don't think anyone cares about the ability to get reqs or not. Reqs is just work. There is very little skill involved. I spent 6-8 hours on this suspect on three different alts. That's not skill, thats sheer will BABY!
Dondyxd you dont have to choose between a balanced tier and a fun tier because they go side and side with one another. Having a balanced tier makes it fun and allowing more outsiders to vote wont disrupt the balance of the tier. The coil requirement forces players to spend time on ladder figuring out what they will vote. Whether the GXE requirement should or shouldn't scare off people, it does. You even said you were going to quit if it wasn't for kink. Suspects don't have to be dreadful like you suggest they always are. I've been through tons of UU suspects and none have been this extreme. I can compare this to UULT desperation levels. If people want something to show off their skill and take pride in, there are plenty of UU tournaments to attend. Suspects, I feel, should be an opportunity to grow the community rather than wail on newcomers.
"No GXE requirement would encourage everyone who wants a TC badge just to grind a bunch of games to get another vote to add to their nomination." There is nothing wrong with that. Also, I don't think anyone cares about the ability to get reqs or not. Reqs is just work. There is very little skill involved. I spent 6-8 hours on this suspect on three different alts. That's not skill, thats sheer will BABY!
Why would we let anyone that so happens to have 5 hours on their hands and the want for a badge to determine our metagame? They don't actually care that much about the meta, moreso the badge. And without the GXE requirement no it doesn't take much skill. But it needs to in order for people actually qualified to make a healthy decision on the tier. The new proposal ensures this but isn't exclusive to those who are genuinely interested in the tier. 80% shouldn't be that bad - I've seen plenty of other suspects go for around there but still having a fair share of votes. The suspect should require skill and metagame knowledge. I don't see a problem with that.
As for COIL, it's unpopular cause a lot of people don't understand how it works. And even then, there are simpler ways. I think just a GXE requirement is fine, just not one excessively high. 80% is fine.
On another note, Zarel did make a really good point - as it is, high level players don't like laddering but the game limit is just BS. I don't see a real need for it and I don't think anyone does. The game limit imo is what scares off newcomers the most and it should be cut from all future suspects.
Why would we let anyone that so happens to have 5 hours on their hands and the want for a badge to determine our metagame? They don't actually care that much about the meta, moreso the badge. And without the GXE requirement no it doesn't take much skill. But it needs to in order for people actually qualified to make a healthy decision on the tier. The new proposal ensures this but isn't exclusive to those who are genuinely interested in the tier. 80% shouldn't be that bad - I've seen plenty of other suspects go for around there but still having a fair share of votes. The suspect should require skill and metagame knowledge. I don't see a problem with that.
As for COIL, it's unpopular cause a lot of people don't understand how it works. And even then, there are simpler ways. I think just a GXE requirement is fine, just not one excessively high. 80% is fine.
On another note, Zarel did make a really good point - as it is, high level players don't like laddering but the game limit is just BS. I don't see a real need for it and I don't think anyone does. The game limit imo is what scares off newcomers the most and it should be cut from all future suspects.
I think the game cap was unnecessary in the first place because one could already calculate the minimum number of games needed from required COIL and various values of GXE. Game limits put unnecessary pressure on participants.
Just wanna say that the current way to get reqs in PU is pretty cool imo.
Basically, 80% GXE with at least 35 games. It's a rather interesting solution because it forces people to play a certain amount of games, which mean there going to have a good opinion on the Suspecting Pokemon and they need to have some skill to get 80% GXE. It also allows more people to get reqs without becoming too easy.
Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 236 HP / 176 SpD / 96 Spe
Careful Nature
- Spore
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Leech Seed
A bulky booster, best used to close the game. Spore puts one Pokémon out of commission for a few turns. Bulk Up improves Breloom's power and bulk. You could use Swords Dance instead if you prefer the extra power. Drain Punch is a reliable STAB that also heals Breloom - Leech Seed provides chip damage and another form of healing. 96 Speed EVs let you outrun 252 Adamant Azumarill. 236 HP EVs give you a Poison Heal number, with the rest in Special Defence for added bulk. Bulk Up boosts Attack and Defence, so they don't need investment. This set decimates stall once Amoongus is gone, and can do pretty well against offence once Flying types are gone.
I'm feeling very disappointed Breloom didn't stay in BL. After the suspect I've noticed there are less people using Amoonguss and people are carrying less Spore immune answers to Breloom. Every team I build I feel obligated to use 1/4 Grass resists, as without that extra damage reduction even bulky resists like Mega Altaria can die to Bullet Seed. The set I've had the most success with has been a standard Focus Sash+SD set. When Focus Sash is intact it lets you play very aggressively and normally decent checks like Latias and Celebi can fall to a +2 Bullet Seed followed up with a Mach Punch. Definitely feel it should be looked at again at some point but I understand that won't be happening soon. In the mean time I guess we can just use Amoonguss.
Regarding Buzzwole, I think it was pretty obvious how good it was considering the wide margin of BL votes returning it to BL. During the suspect I noticed it has quite a few similarities to Scizor and to be honest I think Scizor is much more threatening than Buzzwole. As offensive threats both Pokemon have all the coverage they need, moves to boost their stats and tools to deal with faster checks in Substitute and Bullet Punch. Both Pokemon can also run more defensive sets that act as great pivots. As for typing its a fact that Steel/Bug is much better than Bug/Fighting defensively. Scizor also has way more utility moves under his belt like U-turn, Pursuit, Knock Off, and Defog.
Scizor has been the best Pokemon in the tier since its inception for very good reasons. In my opinion it certainly surpasses Buzzwole in almost all of its roles. I really feel like Scizor should be up for a suspect test soon and I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks about the possibility of a tier without Scizor.
I'm feeling very disappointed Breloom didn't stay in BL. After the suspect I've noticed there are less people using Amoonguss and people are carrying less Spore immune answers to Breloom. Every team I build I feel obligated to use 1/4 Grass resists, as without that extra damage reduction even bulky resists like Mega Altaria can die to Bullet Seed. The set I've had the most success with has been a standard Focus Sash+SD set. When Focus Sash is intact it lets you play very aggressively and normally decent checks like Latias and Celebi can fall to a +2 Bullet Seed followed up with a Mach Punch. Definitely feel it should be looked at again at some point but I understand that won't be happening soon. In the mean time I guess we can just use Amoonguss.
Regarding Buzzwole, I think it was pretty obvious how good it was considering the wide margin of BL votes returning it to BL. During the suspect I noticed it has quite a few similarities to Scizor and to be honest I think Scizor is much more threatening than Buzzwole. As offensive threats both Pokemon have all the coverage they need, moves to boost their stats and tools to deal with faster checks in Substitute and Bullet Punch. Both Pokemon can also run more defensive sets that act as great pivots. As for typing its a fact that Steel/Bug is much better than Bug/Fighting defensively. Scizor also has way more utility moves under his belt like U-turn, Pursuit, Knock Off, and Defog.
Scizor has been the best Pokemon in the tier since its inception for very good reasons. In my opinion it certainly surpasses Buzzwole in almost all of its roles. I really feel like Scizor should be up for a suspect test soon and I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks about the possibility of a tier without Scizor.
I feel Scizor in UU can have some comparisons made to Lando-T in OU: while neither Pokemon is an overbearing threat defensively/offensively, nor do checks/counters not exist for either, both are extremely prevalent in their respective tiers to the point shit gets stale after a bit. I would love a ban on Scizor to free up that staleness, but that isn’t a good reason to ban a Pokemon imo.
Scizor can definitely be called an overbearing threat offensively dependent on your definition of overbearing. Responses to offensive SD Scizor are extremely limited, outside of Quagsire and Pyukumuku which obviously don’t fit on most teams, due to the amount of different coverage it can run viably. Moves like Knock Off and Quick Attack can completely invalidate certain responses such as Jellicent and Infernape, which often leads to teams needing to double up to make sure they cover all of Scizor’s potential sets, which when allied with how much a Scizor can contribute to a team defensively through the virtues of being a Steel type and it’s strong priority, can make a case for it being a little too good. Not sure whitch side I fall on in this argument, but comparisons to Pokemon in other tiers are usually somewhat inaccurate, but irrelevant aswell. What OU feels and does with Landorus-T should have no bearing on how UU feels and deals with Scizor.
Cobalion, Hippowdon(whirlwind), Volcanion, Suicune, Mega Manectric, Magneton, Tentacruel, Mantine, Mega Aggron(fire punch), and also some more unreliable checks like Starmie, Infernape, Lucario, Talonflame, Rotom-C, Raikou and Chandelure. I mean the list is pretty long. Countermeasures to SD scizor are not hard to find.
Cobalion, Hippowdon(whirlwind), Volcanion, Suicune, Mega Manectric, Magneton, Tentacruel, Mantine, Mega Aggron(fire punch), and also some more unreliable checks like Starmie, Infernape, Lucario, Talonflame, Rotom-C, Raikou and Chandelure. I mean the list is pretty long. Countermeasures to SD scizor are not hard to find.
That's true that those are all checks to Scizor but most of those checks are vulnerable to being worn down to the point where Scizor can just sweep anyway or they just lose to it if it has the right coverage. Cobalion, Volcanion, Magneton, Mega-Manectric, and Entei are the only faster pokemon that actually take less than 50% from a boosted Bullet Punch. Scizor can actually survive hits from a large portion of the offensive cast without bulk investment and hit back hard enough to cripple his would be checks. Scizor picks what defensive Pokemon actually deal with him well and even then he can still pivot out of what gives him trouble. Just because something has counter measures doesn't mean it cannot be broken.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 272-321 (72.7 - 85.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Scizor Savage Spin-Out (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Hippowdon: 369-435 (87.8 - 103.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Scizor Savage Spin-Out (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 328-387 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 236 Def Tentacruel: 316-373 (87 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Scizor Savage Spin-Out (140 BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 417-492 (86.6 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Scizor All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 258-304 (67.3 - 79.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Scizor All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 324-382 (94.4 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 446-526 (103.2 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
These calcs show that defensive answers depend entirely on the set Scizor is using. Most of the OHKOs by Z-moves can also be replicated with the LO set with just minimal chip damage. For a few of these Pokemon their ability to check Scizor comes from Scald burns as without a burn Scizor can just SD again and achieve the OHKO.
These calcs show that defensive answers depend entirely on the set Scizor is using. Most of the OHKOs by Z-moves can also be replicated with the LO set with just minimal chip damage. For a few of these Pokemon their ability to check Scizor comes from Scald burns as without a burn Scizor can just SD again and achieve the OHKO.
While I definitely agree with you that scizor doesn't really have many true counters with even "hard" stops like quag and volcanion having issues with the possibility of u-turn and hazards etc. I don't think scizor is alone in this. Latias, for example, has arguably even less defensive counter play with the only things that could really claim to counter its CM z sets being muk-a who still takes up to 80% from +1 DD or resort to a-vest metagross. The same could be said for things like LO mixed kyurem, azumarill who has 3 good sets that all require very different approaches and can all very easily bust apart any sort of bulky teams. Bringing up quag again as it is also the only stop to all DD altaria sets. Perhaps more controversially as many believe it should be gone, Serp also has no true counter to both sub seed and glare hyper beam (or even just the latter tbh). Even Z-celebi I would say has no true defensive counter play (i.e. gleam is v. viable over psychic potentially). Dedicated stall-breakers like heracross also have no switch-ins but I would say they're a little different as they don't have any use outside of fat match-ups.
Before you say it, I know there's a key difference in how scizor has priority which sets it apart from the rest apart from maybe azu and dd alt who would be v. fast after dd anyway and I do think it does set it apart to a degree, but I think this post shows geezer's post that there are generally checks to it does have some weight even though there's no 100% counter. Maybe BP does push it over the edge but it doesn't mean it can just set up whenever it wants to without consequence.
UU is a very fast-paced metagame like many of the lower tiers (just look at SPL game times compared to OU ones for starters and OU isn't a defensive meta imo) so making big plays like hard-switching your mega mane in on an SD instead of your steel type is what can make or break games down here.
While I definitely agree with you that scizor doesn't really have many true counters with even "hard" stops like quag and volcanion having issues with the possibility of u-turn and hazards etc. I don't think scizor is alone in this. Latias, for example, has arguably even less defensive counter play with the only things that could really claim to counter its CM z sets being muk-a who still takes up to 80% from +1 DD or resort to a-vest metagross. The same could be said for things like LO mixed kyurem, azumarill who has 3 good sets that all require very different approaches and can all very easily bust apart any sort of bulky teams. Bringing up quag again as it is also the only stop to all DD altaria sets. Perhaps more controversially as many believe it should be gone, Serp also has no true counter to both sub seed and glare hyper beam (or even just the latter tbh). Even Z-celebi I would say has no true defensive counter play (i.e. gleam is v. viable over psychic potentially). Dedicated stall-breakers like heracross also have no switch-ins but I would say they're a little different as they don't have any use outside of fat match-ups.
Before you say it, I know there's a key difference in how scizor has priority which sets it apart from the rest apart from maybe azu and dd alt who would be v. fast after dd anyway and I do think it does set it apart to a degree, but I think this post shows geezer's post that there are generally checks to it does have some weight even though there's no 100% counter. Maybe BP does push it over the edge but it doesn't mean it can just set up whenever it wants to without consequence.
UU is a very fast-paced metagame like many of the lower tiers (just look at SPL game times compared to OU ones for starters and OU isn't a defensive meta imo) so making big plays like hard-switching your mega mane in on an SD instead of your steel type is what can make or break games down here.
We just banned Buzzwole because it had no true defensive counters as well as being difficult to revenge kill due to its bulk. Scizor does nearly the same exact role with a bit less bulk and speed in exchange for strong priority, better typing, better boosting move, and more utility moves. The premise of my first post was centered around this comparison. I saw people complaining that they didn't want to run Flying coverage just because of Buzzwole. To me that seems no different than the litany of Pokemon that run useless Fire coverage outside of hitting Scizor. Bullet Punch makes Scizor far harder to revenge kill than Buzzwole because most strong special attackers can take Buzzwole out. Around 80% of voters thought Buzzwole was broken so it doesn't seem too far fetched to think others might think Scizor is at the very least deserving of a suspect test.
We just banned Buzzwole because it had no true defensive counters as well as being difficult to revenge kill due to its bulk. Scizor does nearly the same exact role with a bit less bulk and speed in exchange for strong priority, better typing, better boosting move, and more utility moves. The premise of my first post was centered around this comparison. I saw people complaining that they didn't want to run Flying coverage just because of Buzzwole. To me that seems no different than the litany of Pokemon that run useless Fire coverage outside of hitting Scizor. Bullet Punch makes Scizor far harder to revenge kill than Buzzwole because most strong special attackers can take Buzzwole out. Around 80% of voters thought Buzzwole was broken so it doesn't seem too far fetched to think others might think Scizor is at the very least deserving of a suspect test.
Imo the reason Buzzwole was broken is because it invalidated every single physical attacker without super effective stab. There are tons of mons in UU that are just as difficult to switch into as Buzzwole (Heracross, Azu, Scizor, Mamoswine etc etc). But they dont posess insane bulk ontop of that. That being said, I think a suspect is fine:) But if scizor is broken I would argue breloom is broken aswell. SD loom is arguably harder to deal with than SD scizor.
Not really replying to anyone rn but I just wanted to say that based on my experience on the ladder lately and playtesting with some council members, the tier seems to have become far more stable and I think the inclusion of Breloom was ultimately a very healthy and diverse teambuilding option to influence the ebb and flow of the tier. Not sure what the council has in store, but in my personal opinion I think we could fit one more suspect test before our next major tour season.
I would like to see a suspect test to bring back Staraptor and Thundurus-Incarnate. Thundurus-Incarnate is very similar to Tornadus-Incarnate as they both have Prankster and a similar movepool. I don't think it's an issue anymore. And now UU is filled with strong Megas and a plethora of priority users. So I believe that Staraptor will be manageable now in UU. I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this
I would like to see a suspect test to bring back Staraptor and Thundurus-Incarnate. Thundurus-Incarnate is very similar to Tornadus-Incarnate as they both have Prankster and a similar movepool. I don't think it's an issue anymore. And now UU is filled with strong Megas and a plethora of priority users. So I believe that Staraptor will be manageable now in UU. I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this
While voltturn is a decent playstyle, giving staraptor free switchins is not a good idea imo because there are limited mons that can freely switch into banded reckless bravebird.
Some good defensive mons like alomo, gliscor gets guaranteed 2HKOed, some mons that would be considered as "checks" swampert, empoleon, m aero, forre, gets 2 hko from bravebird aswell, and options like klefki and gross has calcs like this;
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 196 HP / 208+ Def Klefki: 145-171 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 146-172 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Only viable options among all "viable" mons that can freely switch into it is stakataka and m aggron, homewer you can also manage both of those because close combat exists.
252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 145-172 (42.2 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stakataka: 340-400 (104.2 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also, Thundurus-Incarnate is a pure beast with an amazing speed tier and really good offensives stats. It has a great Movepool which allows it to be a Special or Mixed Wallbreaker (which is extremely good vs Stall).
Thundurus (M) @ Fightinium Z / Electrium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast / Grass Knot
This is just an exemple but you can also run Mixed Flynium Z with Defiant which is really really good. Even though I loved Thundurus-I when it was in UU (early SM), it was just too versatile and just too powerful for the tier. And I trully think it's the same now.
Also, Thundurus-Incarnate is a pure beast with an amazing speed tier and really good offensives stats. It has a great Movepool which allows it to be a Special or Mixed Wallbreaker (which is extremely good vs Stall).
Thundurus (M) @ Fightinium Z / Electrium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast / Grass Knot
This is just an exemple but you can also run Mixed Flynium Z with Defiant which is really really good. Even though I loved Thundurus-I when it was in UU (early SM), it was just too versatile and just too powerful for the tier. And I trully think it's the same now.
Torn-I doesn't have Nasty Plot and Hurricane isn't as reliable as Thunderbolt, but you could run Air Slash, I guess. Thundurus-I is so much better than Torn-I.
