To be honest, I don't think we can get around the size of BL no matter how we try. Even though the UU council did a good job with the 4 drops (counting Doom but personally I don't since we traded it for a Drought ban), I don't think there's much that can be done unless something big drops from OU. And almost anything that drops from OU is guaranteed to be broken for UU (garchomp, fini, sableye etc.) or won't end up changing the meta too much for something from BL to drop (rotom).
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np: USUM UU Stage 6.1 - Échame La Culpa (Breloom unbanned, Buzzwole remains BL)
- Thread starter Saria
- Start date
- Status
Reminder that we are under no obligation to drop anything from BL. The list is bound to grow bigger each generation so the size itself isn't an issue. We obviously try our best to drop things that we deem balanced enough to give them a shot in UU but the current state of the tier will always remain our top priority.
As far as I can tell people want to give things a chance to drop from BL to prevent the metagame from becoming stale. Especially with all the low-usage mons in OU that might drop are undoubtedly too powerful for UU means we're not going to be getting many new things to play with. The tier has already over centralized around Scizor and even Gliscor to an extent.
Speaking of which, I'd like to give my thoughts on Scizor, most of this I already said in the discord.
I've been trying to say shit about Scizor for a while now and it was the main reason why I supported freeing buzzwole from BL - it was a pretty reasonable scizor check imo. I try to make my average "having to run magneton to viably run dd altaria :weary: / having to unironically run babiri berry togekiss :weary: / scizor is such a fun and balanced pokemon :weary:"memes often just to show my disdain for such an over centralizing pokemon in the metagame (35% usage on ladder and a whopping 44% with a 54% win rate in SPL???) that is nearly invalidating things like Terrakion and having an incredible matchup vs both HO and Balance / BO no matter what set you're going to be running.
I particularly don't like the effect that its having on HO and while its not as noticeable as some obviously broken things that just straight up muscle through or sweep your team its that Scizor is SO GOOD at its jobs that it can pressure frail and bulky teams alike incredibly well that I'd honestly like to see how a Scizor-less metagame would be like. I'm pretty sure everybody is null to the fact that HP Fire coverage is 100% needed on some Pokemon but really scizor is the only thing it hits. It's become a standard and also since its a standard in other tiers (for example to hit Ferro and Mega Scizor and a few other steels in OU, because these Pokemon have no other way of hitting them because it would normally counter a given Pokemon without HP Fire) but things in UU are running HP Fire merely to hit Scizor, even though Scizor isn't even a "counter" to a lot of these Pokemon.
Speaking of which, I'd like to give my thoughts on Scizor, most of this I already said in the discord.
I've been trying to say shit about Scizor for a while now and it was the main reason why I supported freeing buzzwole from BL - it was a pretty reasonable scizor check imo. I try to make my average "having to run magneton to viably run dd altaria :weary: / having to unironically run babiri berry togekiss :weary: / scizor is such a fun and balanced pokemon :weary:"memes often just to show my disdain for such an over centralizing pokemon in the metagame (35% usage on ladder and a whopping 44% with a 54% win rate in SPL???) that is nearly invalidating things like Terrakion and having an incredible matchup vs both HO and Balance / BO no matter what set you're going to be running.
I particularly don't like the effect that its having on HO and while its not as noticeable as some obviously broken things that just straight up muscle through or sweep your team its that Scizor is SO GOOD at its jobs that it can pressure frail and bulky teams alike incredibly well that I'd honestly like to see how a Scizor-less metagame would be like. I'm pretty sure everybody is null to the fact that HP Fire coverage is 100% needed on some Pokemon but really scizor is the only thing it hits. It's become a standard and also since its a standard in other tiers (for example to hit Ferro and Mega Scizor and a few other steels in OU, because these Pokemon have no other way of hitting them because it would normally counter a given Pokemon without HP Fire) but things in UU are running HP Fire merely to hit Scizor, even though Scizor isn't even a "counter" to a lot of these Pokemon.
There's still a decent degree of creativity in this tier. While scizor is centralizing, the meta is by no means stale. And, as hogg put it, even if a meta is stale, that's never a reason to drop something.
Sure, I completely agree with that. I didn't mean to imply that I believed dropping something is a good solution to a stale metagame, nor did I mean to imply that I believed that the current metagame is stale. I was simply trying to point out what other people who want something to drop may think. My post was also geared more towards those same people's thinking of the future of the tier, many months in advance when the meta might begin to "standardize".
I don't think Scizor would ever be tested on the merit of being over-centralizing. While I don't particularly like squabbling over definitions, to me over-centralizing is for when a pokemon is so good or necessary within the tier that it's very hard to justify making optimal teams without it, such as when Buzzwole was first in the tier and to a degree when it was tested just now. While I think Scizor is a very good pokemon, I don't think it fulfils that characteristic. If it were to be tested I think it would be under the premise that it's SD sets really have very few defensive counters outside a select group of pokemon that are too niche to be used on most teamstyles such as Quagsire, Pyukumuku and Arcanine. Add into that it's ability to check a fair portion of the metagame due to being a Steel type and having strong priority and I think that's where the argument is.
Personally I feel it might be time to retest Porygon-Z. Muk-A wrecks the Ghost set, Blissey walls pretty much everything apart from the suboptimal Psyshock set (which loses to Muk), the Electric set is beaten by Swampert, Quagsire and Mega Steelix, and given its lacklustre bulk and lack of resistances, finding space to come in and set up is tricky. It's also still slower than most relevant Scarf mons at +1. I feel that UU will be able to handle it.
+1 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 170-202 (48.4 - 57.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
The actual set that it would run fwiw. That’s my opinion anyway, I don’t see any reason why this Pokémon would ever be retested, one turn setup that makes it deceptively bulky and not weak to any priority while still hitting like an absolute truck and having great coverage to boot. Usually I try to keep away from over exaggerating but I really think that’s a true reflection of pory z by UU standards. Sure Blissey walls but like that’s not relevant for 90% of teams in the metagame which would all be bending over backwards to take this monster on. Blissey could also potentially lose if it also opts to run Nasty Plot, as it does in ou according to the calc. It’s slower than the scarfers but can easily eat hits from them at +1, and can even run Recover to compound the issue! I don’t think this would add anything positive to the tier at all.
The actual set that it would run fwiw. That’s my opinion anyway, I don’t see any reason why this Pokémon would ever be retested, one turn setup that makes it deceptively bulky and not weak to any priority while still hitting like an absolute truck and having great coverage to boot. Usually I try to keep away from over exaggerating but I really think that’s a true reflection of pory z by UU standards. Sure Blissey walls but like that’s not relevant for 90% of teams in the metagame which would all be bending over backwards to take this monster on. Blissey could also potentially lose if it also opts to run Nasty Plot, as it does in ou according to the calc. It’s slower than the scarfers but can easily eat hits from them at +1, and can even run Recover to compound the issue! I don’t think this would add anything positive to the tier at all.
Popping in to this discussion to discredit Blissey being a wall to PZ:
+2 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 756-890 (105.8 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
I disagree with PZ coming back. Z-Conversion may be slow and can be revenged, but it is still powerful and can usually force at least one sack. Nasty Plot Breakneck Blitz can also serve as an excellent wallbreaker, and can decimate stall if any faster mons are gone. +2 Breakneck Blitz kills almost everything on stall not resistant or immune to it, and has very little switch ins.
+2 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 756-890 (105.8 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
I disagree with PZ coming back. Z-Conversion may be slow and can be revenged, but it is still powerful and can usually force at least one sack. Nasty Plot Breakneck Blitz can also serve as an excellent wallbreaker, and can decimate stall if any faster mons are gone. +2 Breakneck Blitz kills almost everything on stall not resistant or immune to it, and has very little switch ins.
Speaking of potential retests, something that I would consider to retest is Slowbronite. We all know how bad regular Slowbro is right now - Breloom dropped, Scizor pretty much became a staple on Bulky Offense, the most prominent playstyle right now, and Mega Manectric and Serperior are everywhere. Mega Slowbro is also susceptible to any form of hazards, and most importantly - to Toxic.
Mega Slowbro will be nowhere as good as it was when it got banned, therefore I think there's no harm in retesting it.
Mega Slowbro will be nowhere as good as it was when it got banned, therefore I think there's no harm in retesting it.
I agree with retesting M-Slowbro. There are also a lot more viable megas in the UU tier now. I would rather have M-Houndoom, M-Altaria, M-Manectric and a few more new megas than M-Slowbro and even stall teams could use M-Aggron better.
From what I've seen stall teams seem to prefer Mega Steelix over Mega Aggron, presumably for its ability to block Volt Switch. Agree with retreating Mega Slowbro - Breloom, Serperior, Hydreigon, Mega Manectric, Gengar, there are plenty of checks and counters.
I disagree with pory-z. It would be very unhealthy for the tier. Speaking of unhealthy mons (breloom), i know it was recently unbanned but imo it has been nothing but unhealthy for the tier and i dont see any benefit to keeping it here. During the suspect, people had a very skewed view of it because buzzwole was allowed.
lmao that Breakneck Blitz calc reminded me of Gen IV where people were like "omfg NP Hyper Beam 2HKO Blissey"
Possibly. Ask the Simple Questions, Simple Answers Thread (If it is still active).
Speaking of Slowbronite and Porygon-Z, I vehemently disagree with the latter for the reason stated above. However, I also disagree with PZ dropping as it is unpredictable. The word "unpredictable" gets tossed around a lot when discussing BL/Suspects but I believe it can apply rather well to the duck. Porygon really runs only one set; however, it is the ability to customise the set to your whims that really makes it broken. Need a way of recovering/dodging sucker punches? Use Recover. Need even MORE power? Use Nasty Plot. Fancy Electric typing more than Ghost? Place Thunderbolt as your first moveslot. Need to get past Blissey/Muk? Just Breakneck Blitz through them or, better yet, pair them with something that can retaliate/use the two as set up fodder (i.e mons such as the Fighting Mons (Cobalion, Infernape, Mienshao and Terrakion or hazard setters) to punish the switch-ins (keep in mind that Blissey and/or Alo-Muk are your go-to special walls; stuff like quag and Suicune don't necessarily want to come in).
Now I should preface this by saying, I'm lukewarm on letting Slowbro-Mega in. However, I found Amane Misa's points well articulated and I would like to pose a counter-response.
Let's break this bit by bit.
Amane Misa mentioned Breloom and Scizor, which while I agree would constitute a check, still need to be wary of switching in. Slowbro learns Ice Beam and Flamethrower, the former threating Breloom while the latter catching both on the switch.
Serperior and Mega Manectric are slightly better checks but are unreliable when weakened or when Slowbro is at +3 and +4, respectively. I also agree that Mega Bro is very susceptible to hazards. The calcs were both 3HKOs, however, after hazards, they can be easily reduced to guaranteed 2HKO's. However, the archetypes Slowbro will be found in (Bulky Offensive, Stall) all have methods of dealing with hazards and common hazard setters. While weaknesses do stack with many rapid spinners and defoggers, there are still plenty (Gliscor comes to mind) that can work somewhat well synergetically with it.
And lastly, you, Amane Misa, mentioned toxic as the 'most important' factor that can cut Slowbro's work. While I agree that toxic is a pain in the neck for the bro, there are ways to alleviate this. Teammates such as Gliscor and Breloom can provide status sponges. On stall and certain bulky offensive archetypes, clerics can be easily used. In fact, Slowbro pairs well with both Blissey and Sylveon. Slowbro can also alleviate status on its own with moves such as rest and safeguard.
This leads me to my final point. Remember how I talked about Porygon-Z being unpredictable and able to plough through its checks with certain moves, well a similar thing also applies to Slowbro. Slowbro has a veritable buffet of moves to select from to achieve its goals. I mentioned Flamethrower and Ice beam but it also gets access to moves such as Avalanche, Fire Blast, Grass Knot, Magic Coat, Iron Defense, Rest, Sleep Talk, Curse, Slack Off, Substitute, Trick Room (and even weirder moves such as Belly Drum) which all augment its offensive and defensive capabilities. Its ability, regarded to be generally lacklustre, is the cherry on top as it prevents the opposing Pokemon from critting it through. Now, I am not implying that all these moves would be able to be used nor that they would be viable; however, they add an extra dimension to Slowbro that needs to be accounted for when dealing with it.
What do I mean by this? To put it simply, Slowbro can mould itself into any team and scenario with little difficulty. I mentioned that with Porygon-Z but it applies even more so in Slowbro's case. You do not know the Slowbro set until you have scouted it.
There is one problem. One tiny problem. Slowbro has an array of tools at its disposal and stats that can be tailored to help it fulfil many roles. However, it suffers from the crippling plague known as the infamous Four Move Slot Syndrome. Truth be told, it's an issue you have to build and play around and one of the most damning arguments for slowbro's reintroduction to the tier. More than hazards, metagame trends and even the fabled toxic. This is Slowbro's true Achille's heel and my reason for ambivalence. Slowbro has the moves it needs for its job but the overall moveset tends to follow a pattern of Scald, Recovery and potentially Psychic STAB. This leaves very little room for experimentation and coverage/moves to deal with checks and counters. To some extent, this problem can be seen in the EV spreads as well as Slowbro is required to invest in Special Defense and HP which may not leave enough investment in SpA to obtain certain KO's. In some respects, it is a jack of all trades and a master of none.
To summarise, I would like to pose a question:
Does Slowbro's susceptibility to hazards, status/toxic and the current metagame trends as well as its 4MSS outweigh the sheer versatility and unpredictability it brings to the table as a deadly win-condition and a formidable wall?
Some other things I would like you, the reader, to consider are the conditions that resulted in the banning of slowbro and the conditions that have changed since; and the impact that slowbro had and could potentially have on the metagame.
Props to Amane Misa for suggesting the idea.
I might have missed something (yes, I didn't put the calcs) or might have made an error with my calc. Just notify me in my wall and I may be able to fix it. I also might be inaccurate with the information I presented here. Again, feel free to point it out on my profile.
All your points are valid for regular Slowbro as well, which literally has the same HP, Special Defense, and coverage. Should regular Slowbro be banned in that case? Furthermore, Slowbro does not need Fire Blast to punish Breloom and Scizor switch-ins, as it already carries both Scald and Psyshock in its best moveset.
You did not make any comments regarding Mega Slowbro's higher Special Attack, nor its higher Defense, which is what helps it set up Calm Mind in the first place. I am actually helping you make some counter-arguments because the ones you just mentioned are also valid for regular Slowbro.
In any case, let's just look at OU's usage stats from June 2016. Mega Slowbro clearly was not broken back then.
Code:
| Checks and Counters |
| Sceptile-Mega 65.749 (89.64ֲ±5.97) |
| (30.3% KOed / 59.3% switched out)|
| Serperior 62.220 (77.38ֲ±3.79) |
| (16.2% KOed / 61.2% switched out)|
| Breloom 57.484 (74.63ֲ±4.29) |
| (21.9% KOed / 52.7% switched out)|
| Heracross-Mega 52.966 (72.08ֲ±4.78) |
| (39.5% KOed / 32.6% switched out)|
| Gardevoir-Mega 52.208 (72.81ֲ±5.15) |
| (22.3% KOed / 50.5% switched out)|The top 3 common checks and counters include Mega Sceptile, Serperior, and Breloom - all of which we currently have in UU.
In addition, Heatran, Clefable, and Ferrothorn are OU, meaning that Mega Slowbro lost its best partners.
Code:
| Teammates |
| Clefable +18.626% |
| Heatran +12.712% |
| Ferrothorn +7.322% |
| Excadrill +7.265% |
| Tyranitar +6.815% |
| Chansey +6.085% |
| Gliscor +5.767% |
| Terrakion +5.267% |
| Zapdos +4.966% |
| Tornadus-Therian +4.188% |
| Skarmory +4.017% |
| Seismitoad +3.410% |You can't compare the current UU metagame with 2016 OU metagame. They are completely different. While those may be Slowbro's best "checks and counters" it doesn't take into account how Mega Slowbro is able to take on so many of the physical attackers in the tier. It's able to beat most Physical attackers even better than Buzzwole was and has means to compensate for its comparatively lacking special bulk (which by the way, is a lot better than Buzzwole's) in Calm Mind. The thing that made Slowbro NOT broken in 2016 OU are some pretty obvious things. For one, it's beat by a ton of top-tier threats in the tier. While they may not be listed as individual checks on the usage stats, its losing to things like Clefable, Tyranitar, Latios, Rotom-W, Mega Scizor, Torn-T, Ferrothorn, Zard-Y, Thundurus, Zapdos, Manaphy, Mega Garde, Mega Heracross, and a lot more. Oh, and also all those Pokemon were no lower than A- on the ORAS VR. None of those things are in UU right now, and though according to "usage stats" those aren't the "best" checks / counters statistically, it doesn't mean that there are no other counters to it. Mega Slowbro didn't fit into that metagame because it was also outclassed as a water type (see: keldeo, rotom wash, manaphy) and as its role as a bulky setup user of calm mind it was outclassed by Clefable because of superior typing and Clefable's immunity to status and getting worn down.
I don't know how its teammates in ORAS OU have anything to with its place in UU. Again, it's a completely different metagame and I don't understand the correlation between the two. Maybe you could explain that, I'd be interested to hear your reasoning. Mega Slowbro receives all the team support it needs in UU between the various clerics that are extremely splashable as well as other Pokemon that just run Heal Bell or Aromatherapy as a move and status sponges such as Gliscor, Amoonguss, and Breloom.
Mega Slowbro hard walls so many physical attackers in the tier, and obviously an annoying Blissey + Slowbro core is going to develop (Slowbro beating the Fighting-types that break Blissey and Blissey sponging up the Special attacks that break Slowbro while heal belling status away). The strongest non banded Dark-type Knock Off in the tier, from Mega Absol, does 35% MAX to Mega Slowbro. At this point Slowbro is essentially a Dark resist, being able to literally set up on things like Krookodile and Alolan Muk, and setting up on all neutral attacks, like Mega Aero, Cobalion, Infernape, Kommo-O, Lucario, Mienshao, Stakataka, Mega Aggron, Azumaril, and countless others. It's going to put an insane amount of pressure on teambuilding as if it is able to get to +2 or +3 its pretty much unstoppable. Not to mention it has its incredible pre-mega ability in Regenerator letting it act as a pivot throughout the match until it finds a good opportunity to set up. Why should something that puts such strain on teambuilding be allowed in the tier? What is able to break Mega Slowbro + Blissey. Honestly, I can't think of much besides Heracross, which gets worn down extremely easily. I don't think it would be healthy in the tier in the state that it is in.
Here are my thoughts on Mega Slowbro.
From my ORAS experience, Slowbro Mega had three sets worth using: the iron defense set (lol), the cm set, and the 3 attacks + slack off set. I'll write my opinion on this mon based on those 3 sets.
First, the Iron Defense set. Since it's only attack is Scald, it auto loses to any mon that is water resistant (and having at least 1 water resists is something every team has, since UU is known for having tons of bulky waters). It is basically a worse Suicune, since Suicune can at least pp stall balance and stall teams with pressure, and Vince has Ice Beam for grass and dragon types.
The second set and probably the most popular set for Mega Bro is cm slack off. As Amane Misa stated, this set can only win if the opposing team has no way of statusing Mega Slowbro. About the heal bell/aromatherapy team mates, that makes Slowbro Mega by no means different than any other cm user in the tier right now, with the exception of it's natural bulk; in other words, it has an awkward matchup vs stall and balanced teams. Offensive teams also have ways of dealing with this set. We have Serperior, Breloom, Latias, Hydreigon, Celebi on the tier, and the three grass types mentioned are very popular right now. Below, I will state with calcs why those mons can reliably check Mega Slowbro.
Finally, 3 attacks + Slack Off. This set has a bad matchup against balanced/stall, since most of them carry Blissey and 252+ Psyshock is a 3 ohko on her. Against Offensive, however, it can 2ohko/3ohko it's checks with Ice Beam; however it is easily revenge killed by the same mons that can check the CM set. This set can be a bit more difficult to deal with because of its unpredictability, but in order to deal damage, Mega Bro sacrifices it's defensive bulk, and with the loss of Regenerator, it can't pivot as easily as the other two sets.
My final veridict on this mons is that it's not going to be broken in case it drops. All of my argumentation was just to state that. I don't think Mega Bro is unpredictable/being hard to scout; And having water type checks is something every team should have by default. I am, however, willing to see what good arguments prove it is broken and/or unhealthy to the tier.
also sorry for any mistakes I'm on the phone right now lol
From my ORAS experience, Slowbro Mega had three sets worth using: the iron defense set (lol), the cm set, and the 3 attacks + slack off set. I'll write my opinion on this mon based on those 3 sets.
First, the Iron Defense set. Since it's only attack is Scald, it auto loses to any mon that is water resistant (and having at least 1 water resists is something every team has, since UU is known for having tons of bulky waters). It is basically a worse Suicune, since Suicune can at least pp stall balance and stall teams with pressure, and Vince has Ice Beam for grass and dragon types.
The second set and probably the most popular set for Mega Bro is cm slack off. As Amane Misa stated, this set can only win if the opposing team has no way of statusing Mega Slowbro. About the heal bell/aromatherapy team mates, that makes Slowbro Mega by no means different than any other cm user in the tier right now, with the exception of it's natural bulk; in other words, it has an awkward matchup vs stall and balanced teams. Offensive teams also have ways of dealing with this set. We have Serperior, Breloom, Latias, Hydreigon, Celebi on the tier, and the three grass types mentioned are very popular right now. Below, I will state with calcs why those mons can reliably check Mega Slowbro.
252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 290-344 (73.6 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 236-278 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 338-398 (85.7 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 217-256 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Breloom also carries spore and swords dance, so it wins 1v1)
252 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 236-278 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 338-398 (85.7 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 217-256 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Breloom also carries spore and swords dance, so it wins 1v1)
Finally, 3 attacks + Slack Off. This set has a bad matchup against balanced/stall, since most of them carry Blissey and 252+ Psyshock is a 3 ohko on her. Against Offensive, however, it can 2ohko/3ohko it's checks with Ice Beam; however it is easily revenge killed by the same mons that can check the CM set. This set can be a bit more difficult to deal with because of its unpredictability, but in order to deal damage, Mega Bro sacrifices it's defensive bulk, and with the loss of Regenerator, it can't pivot as easily as the other two sets.
My final veridict on this mons is that it's not going to be broken in case it drops. All of my argumentation was just to state that. I don't think Mega Bro is unpredictable/being hard to scout; And having water type checks is something every team should have by default. I am, however, willing to see what good arguments prove it is broken and/or unhealthy to the tier.
also sorry for any mistakes I'm on the phone right now lol
Knock off is super effective and its the most common/used Dark-type physical attack in the game.
What point is this making? Of course Hydreigon and Celebi beats it but does that surprise you? Everything is going to have checks but its even worse that these two are easily beaten by things like Alolan Muk, Sylveon, and Blissey. Serperior is OHKO'd by a +1 Ice Beam after rocks (2hkod easily on non cm ice beam sets, which obviously won't be as common), and Slowbro actually sets up on Latias lol, with Draco doing 55-65 all Slowbro has to do is Calm Mind and Slack Off the damage. Hydreigon has an unfavorable chance to live a +1 Ice Beam after rocks and its doing a ton to Celebi as well and both are easily 2hko'd by an unboosted uninvested Ice Beam while neither OHKO mega slowbro from full, so have fun switching into that.
0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 260-308 (99.6 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Also, "most" balances don't carry Blissey, and Mega Slowbro breaks down anything on stall without toxic. Slowbro otherwise completely rips apart Balance (actual balance staples like Gliscor and Mega Altaria just lose to it) and has a great matchup versus Hyper Offense since it can switch into Pokemon like Mega Aerodactyl and take literally 23 from a Stone Edge or just switch into any Fighting-type besides Breloom and Heracross with ease.
Saying something is healthy for a tier isn't saying "It has this, this, and this, to counter it". If something can blanket check this much of the metagame with only having a relative few super effective STAB moves being able to break it, it seems pretty damn clear that this isn't okay for the tier.
What? This just flat out isn't true. Suicune is the closest thing to Mega Slowbro except its dependent on Leftovers and its far weaker on the Physically defensive side, not to mention Slowbro has a crucial fighting resist. The other two relevant Calm Mind users in Latias and Chandelure either have no recovery or can't afford it in the case of Latias and can straight up be broken through by Physical attackers.
yeezyknows
Banned deucer.
If the council/TLs/powers that be have some solid arguments positing slowbronite's retest I'd be down to hear them and vote on the test, but I honestly don't think m-bro would be healthy for the tier.
Stall's pretty good rn as a playstyle - it's in no way dominant, but it's still more than viable. Breakers exist and counterplay exists for next to every competent stall build in the current meta. M-bro would change that. A current pif stall build exists that makes use of pain split nihi and crobat as a means of dealing with cm chandy/stallbreaker mpidge/loom, while still having the standard stall staples. The introduction of m-bro creates the build of m-bro + blissey + bat + nihi + quag + steel/filler - pretty close to unbreakable in the current metagame outside of some spooky gimmicks.
For reference,
252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 105-124 (26.6 - 31.4%)
and then
0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 254-302 (84.3 - 100.3%)
M-bro is cool in theory, but its introduction would make stall obscenely good, something i believe would be far too overbearing in the current meta.
Stall's pretty good rn as a playstyle - it's in no way dominant, but it's still more than viable. Breakers exist and counterplay exists for next to every competent stall build in the current meta. M-bro would change that. A current pif stall build exists that makes use of pain split nihi and crobat as a means of dealing with cm chandy/stallbreaker mpidge/loom, while still having the standard stall staples. The introduction of m-bro creates the build of m-bro + blissey + bat + nihi + quag + steel/filler - pretty close to unbreakable in the current metagame outside of some spooky gimmicks.
For reference,
252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 105-124 (26.6 - 31.4%)
and then
0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 254-302 (84.3 - 100.3%)
M-bro is cool in theory, but its introduction would make stall obscenely good, something i believe would be far too overbearing in the current meta.
Also, minor point, but you can't roll crits to potentially beat a +2 Def / +2 SpDef Slowbro-Mega thanks to Shell Armor. Something to keep in mind.
Thanks for replying to me, Durza. You make good arguments in why it is not healthy to the tier, but I need to clear a few things on your response.
Of course Hydreigon and Celebi beats it but does that surprise you? Everything is going to have checks but its even worse that these two are easily beaten by things like Alolan Muk, Sylveon, and Blissey
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Saying something is healthy for a tier isn't saying "It has this, this, and this, to counter it". If something can blanket check this much of the metagame with only having a relative few super effective STAB moves being able to break it, it seems pretty damn clear that this isn't okay for the tier.
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Saying something is healthy for a tier isn't saying "It has this, this, and this, to counter it". If something can blanket check this much of the metagame with only having a relative few super effective STAB moves being able to break it, it seems pretty damn clear that this isn't okay for the tier.
Yes, those mons are good for team mates, but does having teammates make a mon unhealthy on their own? You're basically saying that mega bro is unhealthy to the tier because we have mons that are good with it. Besides, "Everything is going to have it's checks" is pretty much the reason to why Mega Bro isn't like other current BL mons, like Buzzwole and Staraptor. Not everything is going to have it's checks. And unlike, for example, Azumarill that can 2ohko everything on the tier bar Tentacruel with coverage moves, Mega Bro suffers from 4mss, which means that in order to carry a third move, it is most likely going to lose to mons that have good def/spdef.
Breloom isn't 1v1ing shit.
0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 260-308 (99.6 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 260-308 (99.6 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Breloom has a chance on 1v1ing it with Spore on the 1st turn, then hitting it with Bullet Seed on the following 2 turns (i'm assuming a sleep roll here, though)
retrowaves said:
About the heal bell/aromatherapy team mates, that makes Slowbro Mega by no means different than any other cm user in the tier right now
What? This just flat out isn't true. Suicune is the closest thing to Mega Slowbro except its dependent on Leftovers and its far weaker on the Physically defensive side, not to mention Slowbro has a crucial fighting resist. The other two relevant Calm Mind users in Latias and Chandelure either have no recovery or can't afford it in the case of Latias and can straight up be broken through by Physical attackers.
About the heal bell/aromatherapy team mates, that makes Slowbro Mega by no means different than any other cm user in the tier right now
What? This just flat out isn't true. Suicune is the closest thing to Mega Slowbro except its dependent on Leftovers and its far weaker on the Physically defensive side, not to mention Slowbro has a crucial fighting resist. The other two relevant Calm Mind users in Latias and Chandelure either have no recovery or can't afford it in the case of Latias and can straight up be broken through by Physical attackers.
That part is true. Latias is the only cm user who has recovery in roost, but aside from her, everything else lacks it. However, my point there was to show that there is no CM user right now that has a way of dealing with toxic aside from having cleric teammates.
You didn't understand what I meant in my post. I simply showed what mons can check *each* Slowbro Mega set. Sure, there aren't MANY things that can check it, but there aren't MANY things that can check any S rank/some A rank mons either, and they aren't unhealthy for the tier. (with the exception of Azumarill imo, but Azumarill isn't the point of the discussion here) I believe a suspect test can show whether Slowbro Mega is too much for the tier or not.
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