np: USUM UU Stage 6.2 - Reggaetón Lento

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Pearl

Soft Windflower
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UU Leader
#1

[insert fancy YouTube channel intro here] Greetings, Pearl here. I'll be this tier's leader alongside Hogg from here onward. First of all, and as most of you know already, Mamoswine moved up in the most recent batch of quick-changes. That aside, nothing else of value was gained or lost. On top of that, the hidden abilities for the Alolan starters have been officially released, but overall they seem very unlikely to impact the tier in a major way. Considering that we're currently in a period of relative stability, we've decided to proceed with another public suspect test...


That's right! I'm pretty sure that most of the people who keep tabs on the tier were able to see this one coming from miles away, and here it is. Mega Slowbro (Slowbronite) was originally banished very early on in the tier's existence due to its ability to single handily win a huge amount of games with its Calm Mind set (sometimes with Iron Defense as well). However, UU has changed a lot since then, and it is undeniable that we're now much better equipped offensively to deal with this Pokemon. It could still prove to be an issue considering its wide array of options and gargantuan physical bulk coupled with the set up options and an immunity to Critical Hits, but only time and experience can tell how this one will develop.

With that said, the ladder requirements for this suspect test will be the following:
  • A minimum of 40 games played on the suspect ladder, and
  • A minimum GXE of 80.
  • Members of the UU Council may qualify with:
    • 30 or more games played on the suspect ladder with a minimum GXE of 80
    • At least one "decent quality" NP post (decent quality is to be determined by the tier leaders).
  • Players with recent official tour success in the meta may also qualify with these reduced requirements.
    • Any player with a top 8 finish in the most recent iteration of an official SM UU tour may vote in a suspect test after playing a minimum of 30 games on the suspect ladder, with a minimum GXE of 80. Qualifying tours include UU Majors, UU Open, UU Ladder tour and UU Championships. Only the most recent iteration of the tour qualifies.

The ladder will be going up tomorrow, March 10th, in approximately 24 hours and will be up till March 18th.
Eyan and The Immortal I was told that I should bug you guys to set the suspect ladder up. Thank you a lot in advance! :psyglad:
 
#4
I still feel alomomola still beats it in physical bulk, regen wish scald knock, the extra type on bro just gives extra weaknesses. May see incineroar jump a bit with new ability and lariet allows it to bypass setup mons
 
#5
I still feel alomomola still beats it in physical bulk, regen wish scald knock, the extra type on bro just gives extra weaknesses. May see incineroar jump a bit with new ability and lariet allows it to bypass setup mons
The difference is that Slowbro has a good special attack stat so it can actually damage stuff way better than Alo, and it has a proper recovery move in Slack Off instead of wishing and switching out for regen, so it can run Calm Mind effectively. You're also underselling the typing a fair bit there, it at least gets a fighting resistance which is pretty good. Fire Blast is nice too I guess.
 
#7
Interesting suspect. I think the counter play to Slowbro-mega has grown since early sumo. That being said slowbro adds another good defensive wall that versatile in movepool; getting moves like magic coat,trick room,etc with reliable recovery unlike alo with pseudo wish recovery. slowbro also has good coverage enough to be an offensive tank. Will be interesting to see how this suspect goes.
 
#9
I think Mega Slowbro is a really weird suspect tbh so it makes the suspect very interesting if you know how to use it it can get pretty annoying and with some calm mind set up then recovering all the damage you can get a bulky sweeper like that isn't enough you can set up trick room and just be annoying af so this it might be a good idea to ban this mon but I am not sure.
 
#11

In the 40 games I played, I didn't see a single Mega-Slowbro.

Out of a sense of personal responsibility, justice, and class, I will create an alt and use Mega Slowbro to its utmost.

UU ladder, prepare yourselves.

In the interest of adding more Mega-Slowbro's to ladder I'll gladly paste the team I've been using for the suspect. Feel free to improve upon it and hopefully it'll end up giving some people more experience with this lazy monster.

 

Kink

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#13
Started my 40-game slowbro series today. I'll post the team below after the post so you guys can use it if you want.

I'm going to break my 40-game series into three parts: low, mid, and upper ladder. Below are my first 13 games.

(W) Game 1: Nothing, vanilla game where I used 3 U-turn mons.
(W) Game 2: Mega Slowbro stopped a Sub BD Kommo-O
(W) Game 3: Bro had the chance to setup against a hax, but player was terrible so who cares.
(W) Game 4: bro was able to check azumarill many times, never had the chance to/needed to go mega, scarf chandy was real mvp of the game.
(W) Game 5: once again bro did nothing. scarf chandy still mvp
(W) Game 6: bro still nothing, scarf chandy still mvp
(W) Game 7: what is a mega slowbro?
(W) Game 8: opponent messed up his wincons and let megabro setup on his whole team. not a telling game, but it's really nice that bro can't get crit on...
(L) Game 9: bro was able to hold off a defeat for a short time, the option between regenerator mega evolution power buff can be manipulated better, but overall I was outplayed
(W) Game 10: Mega Bro died to a +1 z-move Kommo at 50, which otherwise would've been a sure win. the fact that opponents can utilize generic creative strats (as in strats that are left field but not gimmicky enough to be considered heatah fajitah) suggests to me that bro isn't as centralizing as other BL mons. however, i won because apparently kommo-o with overcoat is a thing.
(W) Game 11: opponent dced, but after tricking his suicune and punishing his banded scizor/gliscor to within rocks, even regular bro could've cleaned up at this point.
(W) Game 12: opponent forfeited for reasons unbeknownst. bro did nothing
(L) Game 13: outplayed, bro could've lived longer if I wasn't stupid.


So far, nothing suggests to me that Mega Slowbro is broken. It did survive a +2 Terrakion Z-Stone Edge, but it's a defensive tank so like why am I so surprised. Anyway, team is below. Try it out.

Slowbro-Mega @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 32 SpD / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Slack Off

Hydreigon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- U-turn

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 224 SpD / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Roost
- Defog

Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Atk / 24 Def / 160 SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Roost

Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
- Memento

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect
 

pokeisfun

UU player and community member
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#14
Started my 40-game slowbro series today. I'll post the team below after the post so you guys can use it if you want.

I'm going to break my 40-game series into three parts: low, mid, and upper ladder. Below are my first 13 games.

(W) Game 1: Nothing, vanilla game where I used 3 U-turn mons.
(W) Game 2: Mega Slowbro stopped a Sub BD Kommo-O
(W) Game 3: Bro had the chance to setup against a hax, but player was terrible so who cares.
(W) Game 4: bro was able to check azumarill many times, never had the chance to/needed to go mega, scarf chandy was real mvp of the game.
(W) Game 5: once again bro did nothing. scarf chandy still mvp
(W) Game 6: bro still nothing, scarf chandy still mvp
(W) Game 7: what is a mega slowbro?
(W) Game 8: opponent messed up his wincons and let megabro setup on his whole team. not a telling game, but it's really nice that bro can't get crit on...
(L) Game 9: bro was able to hold off a defeat for a short time, the option between regenerator mega evolution power buff can be manipulated better, but overall I was outplayed
(W) Game 10: Mega Bro died to a +1 z-move Kommo at 50, which otherwise would've been a sure win. the fact that opponents can utilize generic creative strats (as in strats that are left field but not gimmicky enough to be considered heatah fajitah) suggests to me that bro isn't as centralizing as other BL mons. however, i won because apparently kommo-o with overcoat is a thing.
(W) Game 11: opponent dced, but after tricking his suicune and punishing his banded scizor/gliscor to within rocks, even regular bro could've cleaned up at this point.
(W) Game 12: opponent forfeited for reasons unbeknownst. bro did nothing
(L) Game 13: outplayed, bro could've lived longer if I wasn't stupid.


So far, nothing suggests to me that Mega Slowbro is broken. It did survive a +2 Terrakion Z-Stone Edge, but it's a defensive tank so like why am I so surprised. Anyway, team is below. Try it out.

Slowbro-Mega @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 32 SpD / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Slack Off

Hydreigon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- U-turn

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 224 SpD / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Roost
- Defog

Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Atk / 24 Def / 160 SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Roost

Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
- Memento

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect

Did you save your replays? Can you save them if you didn't? If you do and keep this up with slightly more in depth commentary, I'll like all your Smogon posts for the next week.
 

Kink

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#15
Games 14-26 while using the same Mega Slowbro team:
(W) Game 14: Mega Slowbro was able to check an Ambipom and later checked Lucario to secure an endgame victory. Opponent was not spectacular, and as usual I suspect any individual that opts to use Ambipom. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-716907416

(W) Game 15: I misjudged the strength of an Araquanid and had to get saved by a Freeze by regular Slowbro. Mega Slowbro had no role in this game. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-716910594

(L) Game 16: Durza had a solid team and made a strong predict endgame when he Bullet Punches my Hydrei instead of switching out to secure his win over me. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-716913275

(L) Game 17: I thought Mega Aero had Fire Fang when apparently Stoudland had Fire Fang, or maybe they both had Fire Fang. Anyway, lost to hjkjk or w/e his name is. Didn't save this replay because I exited in disgust with myself.

(L) Game 18: 6-0ed by my own team, also exited in disgust.

(W) Game 19: Regular Slowbro checked Volcanion for the majority of the game. Opponent lost due to apparent misclick, I just pretend he missed a Fire Blast fufufu http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-716923176

(W) Game 20: I saw a Gligar (?) and clicked Draco (!) and the rest is history. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-716928595

(W) Game 21: Fun game against a Darm, Regenerator was infinitely more useful than Mega Slowbro so I never had to mega evolve. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-716930517

(W) Game 22: A tight one until my opponent lost heart. Mega Bro able to survive two +1 outrages, even after turn 1 was rocks + no mega. Made a solid end-game predict with Sylveon, but nothing too crazy about Mega Bro in this one. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-716973697

(W) Game 23: Easier one, regular bro's regenerator was more useful than setting up at any given time, a recurring theme. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-716976802

(W) Game 24: Bro didn't really do anything. I mega'ed early, but regular ice beam would've KOed Celebi from there too, so no relevance there. Got lucky with a critburn on Muk when using Chandelure. Had Chandy died, it would've made it far more difficult to win. Had to go for the chip damage so that Sylveon would be safe, got lucky. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-716979427

(L) Game 25: I forgot regular Chandy doesn't survive anything from Mega Bee. #ORASstrats I choked this game so no replay for you.

(W) Game 26: I'm pretty sure Mega Bro took just 50% from a banded Azelf Explosion. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-716986250


This thing is so far from broken it hurts.​
 
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Moutemoute

Fluffy & Lazy ツ
is a Tiering Contributor
#16
Despite the fact that I'm dumb and throw aways some game, I got reqs so.. let's talk about Mega-Slowbro.

Firstable I would never though that a BL 'mon would be that much eh in Underused. Unlike the last Suspect Test w/ Breloom & Buzzwole, I feel like that Mega-Slowbro isn't broken or unhealthy at all. For sure it can take a lot of hits on the physical side but there is so much common threats that can force M-Bro to switch because they break through it on the special side. M-Manectric is probably the best Mega atm and it puts so much pressure on Slowbro it's insane. I ran a couple sets of Slowbro and everytime I found it extremely hard to set-up, I feel like I just cannot exploit its potential.



248 HP + 88 SpD = Only 3HKO by Manectric-Mega after 2 CM
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. +2 248 HP / 88 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 164-194 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

8 Speed to outspeed Amoonguss which allows M-Bro to attack it w/ Ice Beam or Psychock.
Bold nature and the rest of EV in Def to maximize its physical Bulk.



252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 80 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 332-392 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
36 SpA Slowbro-Mega Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Scizor: 344-408 (100.2 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
36 SpA Slowbro-Mega Scald vs. 244 HP / 216+ SpD Gliscor: 200-236 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
36 SpA Slowbro-Mega Psychic vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 254-300 (58.7 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Yeah this set sucks but it's fun.. Pretty cool to have this thing on Bulky Offense, can take some hits while not being passive at all. Ice Beam probably better overall than Psychic.

Btw I don't think Mega-Slowbro is noxious for UU, we have a lot of Pokemon which can pressure it with ease (M-Manec, Hydreigon, Serperior, Breloom, SD Scizor.. even the mighty Amoonguss can deal with it w/ Clear Smog / Spore / Giga Drain..). If I do not make a mistake, M-Bro was ban from UU because Serperior was ban before and it was just too difficult to break through. Since Serperior is back in UU I trully think that our big pink buddy deserve to come back.
 
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#17


Let me first start off by thanking a couple people: faded love and vivalospride for some fire motivation and good times in call lmao and xMarth for the team, damn, I got reqs in min game limit despite losing to this same french guy 4 times.

Mega Slowbro is completely unhealthy for the tier. It only has a set of specific answers that cannot safely switch in multiple times (a lot due to the presence of Ice Beam) and also cannot break through after multiple uses of Calm Mind. Slowbro is such an incredibly too-easy-to-use Pokemon as it is able to act as a wall and more so a phenomenal win condition that's only requirements are that its checks are removed or a couple free turns are given. Mega Slowbro's already situational counters have hard counters themselves - Latias, Gengar, Chandelure, and Serperior are easily countered and removed by Alolan Muk while things like Azumarill can switch into Hydreigon all day long and take advantage of it. Hippowdon can switch directly into Mega Manectric all day long and have zero issues. It's all the problems that Mega Latias had except much, much, much, much worse.

I would reply to pro-unban posts but the current one(s) already made are too biased around the merits (or lack of which) of self-playing and themself in general rather than its actual effects on the metagame. You know who I'm talking about. You shouldn't be surprised. You can't really blame him - as he said, nobody is using Mega Slowbro on the ladder and you can't really see how bad it is and the effects of it.

You see, xMarth's team was built so incredibly masterfully that you actually understand how to play with Mega Slowbro PERFECTLY. You understand what its weaknesses are and how you bring the switchins and means to remove them. Togekiss for Status removal and a Hydreigon switchin and a secondary Serperior and Latias check. Scizor for priority and a pivot which allows more things to have opportunities to do their job correctly. Hippowdon for a Mega Manectric counter and general chip damage with the sand up, which really adds up with those scald burns from Mega Slowbro and really help wear things down to remove checks easier. Alolan Muk for Latias and Serperior answers, as well as an overall blanket check to special attackers in the tier that might threaten Mega Slowbro. have nothing against Kink, but I don't think he's using and supporting Mega Slowbro properly and thats why he doesn't see success with it. Oh, not to mention that its a "MEGA SLOWBRO SUSPECT TEST", where everybody is making sure they bring checks to the Pokemon that is literally the purpose of the ladder. If Mega Slowbro was actually allowed in the tier it would only get worse.

I'll bring up a few replays from my own playing and will try to keep this as unbiased as possible. I wish I saved more of them actually.

Lets start out with this one. Yes. A mirror match. You'd think it would come down to pure skill in outplaying, but thats not what happened at all. Look at the progression in which we lost our Pokemon. It's the EXACT same order. I just started my setup with Mega Slowbro a bit earlier and used it as a pivot more throughout the game, and I preserved Scizor which was able to secure the game at the very end. I literally only won because I got lucky with rolls and Scald burns.

Oh look, the "best" movies always have their sequels. Most of the very few battles I had with opposing Mega Slowbro

Lets look at another one. Yes, while it did come down to me outplaying Kink at the end, the only reason this was possible was because Mega Slowbro was able to just completely hold his team on a leash throughout the entire game. Look - Mega Slowbro is 1v1ing a Swords Dance Scizor. How is this okay? This is just a microcausm of how Slowbro is and when you have it literally acting as a Physical Bug and Dark check you know something is up. It's taking less than 50 from the strongest unboosted U-turn in the game, from Mega Beedrill, and is taking less than that from Scizor, especially if it is a bulkier variant, which is actually just setup bait for Mega Slowbro. Your traditional Psychic-type checks in Alolan Muk and Mega Aggron can't do anything to Mega Slowbro and it just sets up on them too.

I don't like the impact that Mega Slowbro would have on the developed tier. My team still struggles with it despite having things like Band Scizor, Alolan Muk, and Z-Thunder Latias, as nearly all of my battles degenerated to a Mega Slowbro vs Mega Slowbro PP war to see who would run out of Slack Off PP first. The way the pro-unban people talk about it already shows how it would centralize the tier around its extremely specific checks and their counters. The main thing that gets me the most with Mega Slowbro is that it is blanket walling and setting up on Physical attackers in a way that Buzzwole did, but in a much much worse way due to Mega Slowbro's better movepool, better pre-mega ability, better initial Special Defense, and a way to cover all its weaknesses in coverage moves and Calm Mind.

I hope people can back me up on this, I just felt that I really needed to make a post on this, and I'll add to my replays with explanations later down the line.

Breloom is absolutely cancer and is way too good for the tier. This is actually making the game unfun.

much love, Durza
 

Kink

it's a thug life
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Moderator
#18
First thing is first, well done on reqs. 33-7 is decent and I will speak to you as if you're someone who is decent. This post will not attack you as a player or your skill, because you're clearly someone who's not a charizardlover9000.
Mega Slowbro is completely unhealthy for the tier. It only has a set of specific answers that cannot safely switch in multiple times (a lot due to the presence of Ice Beam) and also cannot break through after multiple uses of Calm Mind. Slowbro is such an incredibly too-easy-to-use Pokemon as it is able to act as a wall and more so a phenomenal win condition that's only requirements are that its checks are removed or a couple free turns are given. Mega Slowbro's already situational counters have hard counters themselves - Latias, Gengar, Chandelure, and Serperior are easily countered and removed by Alolan Muk while things like Azumarill can switch into Hydreigon all day long and take advantage of it. Hippowdon can switch directly into Mega Manectric all day long and have zero issues. It's all the problems that Mega Latias had except much, much, much, much worse.
Mega Bro is nothing special so far. In a tier where U-turn and Volt switch are everywhere, particularly the former, it makes it very difficult to function in its role(s). Mega Bro is supposed to function in two ways: (1) before it megas, it's supposed to work as basic Water-type tank. (2) it's supposed to serve as a wincon after its threats have been eliminated or at least chipped. Ironically, one of Mega Slowbro's greatest strengths is that it has a defensive pivot in its own pre-mega, which increases the amount of roles it can cover to 3. Now you have yourself a bulky Water-type that can serve reasonable utility purposes. It can check prominent offensive threats such as Azumarill, Cobalion, Weaker Scizor variants, and Terrakion. The Mega Evolution can as well, but again, the purpose of regenerator slowbro is to tank a hit and survive until the appropriate time for Mega Slowbro to eventually come in as a wincon. Here's where the problem starts and ends for Mega Bro: The entire point of Bulky Water Types in the last 2 generations is to tank hits and respond in kind with utility or setup. In this tier, there are other Psychic types that can utilize offensive prowess infinitely better, such as Azelf, Celebi, and most importantly Latias. There are other psychic types that provide similar if not better defensive coverage for setup opportunities, such as Reuniclus or Cresselia. As a Bulky Water, its psychic typing is a huge hinderance. This is what made reg Slowbro NU in the first place - it cannot compete in this tier as it stands. In this regard, in practical purposes it is outclassed by almost every other Water-type in the tier that perform similar roles, such as Suicune.

Now is where I will address your points directly.

Latias, Gengar, Chandelure, Hydreigon, Mega Manectric and several other Special Attackers all force Mega Slowbro out. Yes, you can switch into Muk and pressure those mons, but what makes you think I'm not predicting that? All of these Special Attackers are pressured by Muk regardless, and it's not Mega Slowbro that's broken because of Muk's team support. You can replace Mega Bro with literally any Water Type not named Empoleon and Muk literally performs the exact same role against those special attackers. What this means is that there's zero centralization around the playstyle that MegaBro forces, and instead normal trends are simply used to handle this new threat.
I would reply to pro-unban posts but the current one(s) already made are too biased around the merits (or lack of which) of self-playing and themself in general rather than its actual effects on the metagame. You know who I'm talking about. You shouldn't be surprised. You can't really blame him - as he said, nobody is using Mega Slowbro on the ladder and you can't really see how bad it is and the effects of it.
In response to your claim that I am biased, I say yes, I am. Every ladder player is biased. Bias is how people express their points of view and it is impossible to nullify. This is a game where your knowledge and experience come into play, and depending on how well you've mastered both pillars is what determines your chances of becoming a fantastic player. So you're right, no one can blame me because the fact that I'm willing to talk about 40 games (separate from my reqs) and give you replays to even my losses is a huge bonus to people like you - now you have the privilege of working with my biased experience as well as yours to make a decision. That's the entire point. Welcome to life - it's biased.
You see, xMarth's team was built so incredibly masterfully that you actually understand how to play with Mega Slowbro PERFECTLY. You understand what its weaknesses are and how you bring the switchins and means to remove them. Togekiss for Status removal and a Hydreigon switchin and a secondary Serperior and Latias check. Scizor for priority and a pivot which allows more things to have opportunities to do their job correctly. Hippowdon for a Mega Manectric counter and general chip damage with the sand up, which really adds up with those scald burns from Mega Slowbro and really help wear things down to remove checks easier. Alolan Muk for Latias and Serperior answers, as well as an overall blanket check to special attackers in the tier that might threaten Mega Slowbro. have nothing against Kink, but I don't think he's using and supporting Mega Slowbro properly and thats why he doesn't see success with it. Oh, not to mention that its a "MEGA SLOWBRO SUSPECT TEST", where everybody is making sure they bring checks to the Pokemon that is literally the purpose of the ladder. If Mega Slowbro was actually allowed in the tier it would only get worse.
I'll admit that xMarth's team is great (as usual, he's a fantastic player), but I think the overhype is definitely real. With all due respect, I don't think you're in a position to tell me that I don't know how to use mons properly or bring out their potential. I've been through 3 generations of tiering and have witnessed USUM develop since its infancy, including helping develop the tiering policies that we're currently using. If that doesn't make me at least somewhat qualified to offer a valid perspective, where do you think you stand? Don't be a hater gator.
Lets start out with this one. Yes. A mirror match. You'd think it would come down to pure skill in outplaying, but thats not what happened at all. Look at the progression in which we lost our Pokemon. It's the EXACT same order. I just started my setup with Mega Slowbro a bit earlier and used it as a pivot more throughout the game, and I preserved Scizor which was able to secure the game at the very end. I literally only won because I got lucky with rolls and Scald burns.
Mirror matches are not indicative of anything expect you being able to outplay your opponent with the same team. What this has to do with evaluating Mega Slowbro's strength I'll never understand. You guys are operating with identical initial conditions - what practical (biased) data do you hope to get from that? Which one scald burns first? like dude, you said it yourself luck was a huge factor in your game. This is a moot point.
Lets look at another one. Yes, while it did come down to me outplaying Kink at the end, the only reason this was possible was because Mega Slowbro was able to just completely hold his team on a leash throughout the entire game. Look - Mega Slowbro is 1v1ing a Swords Dance Scizor. How is this okay? This is just a microcausm of how Slowbro is and when you have it literally acting as a Physical Bug and Dark check you know something is up. It's taking less than 50 from the strongest unboosted U-turn in the game, from Mega Beedrill, and is taking less than that from Scizor, especially if it is a bulkier variant, which is actually just setup bait for Mega Slowbro. Your traditional Psychic-type checks in Alolan Muk and Mega Aggron can't do anything to Mega Slowbro and it just sets up on them too.
This was a fun game. It came down to a 50/50. It wasn't your Slowbro that held me to a leash, it was your Scizor. I predicted you to want to keep your Scizor, and switched into Hydreigon for the win. 50/50s are also not indicative of anything beyond your good instincts. Kudos for you for winning that game, but I'd strongly urge you to re-evaluate your position you think that game indicates anything about Mega Bro. I certainly didn't get anything from that game beyond another half-aneurism at losing.
I don't like the impact that Mega Slowbro would have on the developed tier. My team still struggles with it despite having things like Band Scizor, Alolan Muk, and Z-Thunder Latias, as nearly all of my battles degenerated to a Mega Slowbro vs Mega Slowbro PP war to see who would run out of Slack Off PP first. The way the pro-unban people talk about it already shows how it would centralize the tier around its extremely specific checks and their counters. The main thing that gets me the most with Mega Slowbro is that it is blanket walling and setting up on Physical attackers in a way that Buzzwole did, but in a much much worse way due to Mega Slowbro's better movepool, better pre-mega ability, better initial Special Defense, and a way to cover all its weaknesses in coverage moves and Calm Mind.
You're not using Banded Scizor properly if you think it's supposed to take care of a Water-type Tank, of any kind. You're not using Alolan Muk properly if you're trying to beat a Mega Bro in a one on one situation. Z-Thunder Latias is fine at +1 so I'm not sure what your concern is there. Us "pro-unbanners" pretty much just said that Bro is too passive a mon in this tier and that neither it or Mega Bro can put sufficient pressure on the tier to warrant any serious concerns. At the end of the day, tiers are comprised of interlocking webs. Everything effects everything - that's how a tier works. If one element is added to disrupt that web, it needs to be eliminated. Suicune is more of an annoyance with CM with utility like Roar, and Reuniclus is better as a straight up wincon due to its set flexibility. Let's ban those too, no? Cresselia is also extremely bulky, doesn't take up mega slot, has recovery, and has access to an item.

Look man, just because the tier isn't used to a new version of a slow-ass bulky wincon, doesn't mean it's in any sense broken, unhealthy, or uncompetitive. I urge you to reflect and play some more games with something you've built yourself so that you can show better and more definitive examples beyond the ones you've posted, because they're not good examples.


PS:
Breloom is absolutely cancer and is way too good for the tier. This is actually making the game unfun.
Comments like these make me scared because you actually think Breloom is unhealthy and that's just a wrong opinion.
 
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#19
It makes me kinda sad to see how people actually agreed with all the meaningless points in the above post. I urge all of you to read my post carefully as I try to dissect what Kink is trying to say. And for the record, I harbor absolutely no animosity towards Kink, I respect him to an incredibly high degree as both a person and a player, I just think he is wrong in this situation.

First thing is first, well done on reqs. 33-7 is decent and I will speak to you as if you're someone who is decent. This post will not attack you as a player or your skill, because you're clearly someone who's not a charizardlover9000.
thanks.
Mega Bro is nothing special so far. In a tier where U-turn and Volt switch are everywhere, particularly the former, it makes it very difficult to function in its role(s). Mega Bro is supposed to function in two ways: (1) before it megas, it's supposed to work as basic Water-type tank. (2) it's supposed to serve as a wincon after its threats have been eliminated or at least chipped. Ironically, one of Mega Slowbro's greatest strengths is that it has a defensive pivot in its own pre-mega, which increases the amount of roles it can cover to 3. Now you have yourself a bulky Water-type that can serve reasonable utility purposes. It can check prominent offensive threats such as Azumarill, Cobalion, Weaker Scizor variants, and Terrakion. The Mega Evolution can as well, but again, the purpose of regenerator slowbro is to tank a hit and survive until the appropriate time for Mega Slowbro to eventually come in as a wincon.
I agree with you to some extent, but you're really understating Mega Slowbro's potential in driving a game. Your average Water-type tank isn't going to have nearly the level of offensive prowess or threat that Mega Slowbro has. Hell, Mega Slowbro has the same Special Attack stat as Volcanion and Kyurem. We all know how hard that hits, and while it's not directly invested and won't hit as hard as them initially it can easily be raised above and beyond with Calm Mind. It's not just a handful of offensive threats that Mega Slowbro actively checks, its over 90% of the physically offensive metagame. Off the top of my head, every single other Physically bulky Pokemon can be boosted up on and broken through. Suicune, Alomomola, Blissey, Hippowdon (phazing out doesn't count as walling because things can just hit it before it whirlwinds, leaving it at a net loss), Gliscor, I could go on. This NOT the same for Mega Slowbro - there is not a single Pokemon that can boost up on it in a 1v1 Scenario for free, the closest thing would be Serperior simply because it boosts up with its attacks, however its initial power is actually very low so Slowbro can beat that as well. Yes, being able to stay healthy with Regenerator is a pivotal part in what makes Slowbro so dangerous in the first place. No, it is not all of it. You still are carrying your incredible bias that prevents you from looking at Mega Slowbro in any manner besides your 1-dimensional one.
Here's where the problem starts and ends for Mega Bro: The entire point of Bulky Water Types in the last 2 generations is to tank hits and respond in kind with utility or setup. In this tier, there are other Psychic types that can utilize offensive prowess infinitely better, such as Azelf, Celebi, and most importantly Latias. There are other psychic types that provide similar if not better defensive coverage for setup opportunities, such as Reuniclus or Cresselia. As a Bulky Water, its psychic typing is a huge hinderance. This is what made reg Slowbro NU in the first place - it cannot compete in this tier as it stands. In this regard, in practical purposes it is outclassed by almost every other Water-type in the tier that perform similar roles, such as Suicune.
Oh, how wrong you are. You're thinking of Mega Slowbro in such a wrong manner. You're taking individual traits which Mega Slowbro so very much excels at and pretending like its jobs are mutually exclusive. The closest bulky water type that sets up is Suicine - but it doesn't have even close to the same utility in that Slowbro has INSTANT recovery; it can have a moveslot for coverage instead of Protect or Sub or whatever varient of Cune that you are running. Mega Slowbro also has infinitely higher Defense and a far better Special Attack, and isn't rendered useless if it is hit by Knock Off -- quite the opposite I may say. It's Psychic typing is not a hinderance at all - the point I've been trying to get across this entire time is that Physical Bug and Dark-types don't do ANYTHING to Mega Slowbro as their attacks are not doing enough to sufficiently damage it, since by far the most common of those moves are U-turn and Knock Off respectively. I've showed you in your own damn game, Mega Slowbro 1v1'd your SD Scizor, and Mega Beedrill can't break through it either without Swords Dance and that's a 50/50 as well between Slowbro clicking Slack Off or Scald.

I'm actually offended that you would compare Mega Slowbro to Azelf and Cresselia or Reuiniclus, both of which lack the Physical bulk or Offensive prowess to actually do nearly anything to the level that Mega Slowbro does. Cresselia's offensive presence is actually God-awful, its quite a pathetic wincon if you want to use it that way (This is coming from somebody who is actually pretty decent at RU (ssnl r10 so far) where Cresselia is a prominent defensive Pokemon) This actually shows me that you don't know how it functions in the tier - you're just explaining to us all why you didn't succeed with it when you used it yourself. Mega Slowbro is a Jack-Of-All-Trades that is TOO good at all of its jobs - its still a master wincon and Physical wall with INSTANT RELIABLE recovery, unlike ANY other Bulky water type in the tier. The Psychic-type sthat you mentioned drop to Knock Off or any other Bug- or Dark-type and don't have the benefit of having the amazing Water-typing that Mega Slowbro has. The best Slowbro set doesn't even make use of Slowbro's Psychic STAB moves, which Reuiniclus (I won't even mention cress because you have no idea how it works) primarily abuses when setting up. Also, Slowbro dropped so far this gen because it isnt as effective in the metagame due to the obvious gen7 power creep. Nothing changed about Psychic typing between ORAS and USUM. It was fine last gen and its still fine this gen, regular Slowbro as a Pokemon just isn't as effective as other Water types for obvious reasons, but with the Mega Evolution I don't see how you can compare the two vastly different Pokemon.

Now is where I will address your points directly.

Latias, Gengar, Chandelure, Hydreigon, Mega Manectric and several other Special Attackers all force Mega Slowbro out. Yes, you can switch into Muk and pressure those mons, but what makes you think I'm not predicting that? All of these Special Attackers are pressured by Muk regardless, and it's not Mega Slowbro that's broken because of Muk's team support. You can replace Mega Bro with literally any Water Type not named Empoleon and Muk literally performs the exact same role against those special attackers. What this means is that there's zero centralization around the playstyle that MegaBro forces, and instead normal trends are simply used to handle this new threat.
What does prediction have to do with anything? My point was that Mega Slowbro is incredibly easy to support and that should be a factor when determine someing's place in a tier. If its harder to support or takes more effort / teammates to support well then its not as much of a threat and not nearly as dangerous. All Pokemon need some support, I thnk this is obvious. But Mega Slowbro is incredibly easy to support on its own due to the variety of roles that its able to perform as well as its straightforward position as a wincon. [/quote]

Are you serious about comparing Mega Slowbro to "literally any water type besides empoleon?" Because while that statement would include things like Crawdaunt I'll make the assumption that you know very well that that is not true. But I really can't make assumptions like that considering your previous incredibly invalid comparasons, which I went into detail about above.

In response to your claim that I am biased, I say yes, I am. Every ladder player is biased. Bias is how people express their points of view and it is impossible to nullify. This is a game where your knowledge and experience come into play, and depending on how well you've mastered both pillars is what determines your chances of becoming a fantastic player. So you're right, no one can blame me because the fact that I'm willing to talk about 40 games (separate from my reqs) and give you replays to even my losses is a huge bonus to people like you - now you have the privilege of working with my biased experience as well as yours to make a decision. That's the entire point. Welcome to life - it's biased.
Yes, we get to look at your biased experience, but the issue with your bias is that you cannot understand how Slowbro is being used and how your incorrect comparisons just reflect your bias. If you gave me valid points I could maybe understand, but showing a bunch of your replays with somebody using Mega Slowbro when they don't know how isn't showing us anything. This isn't a shot at you or your skill (we know you're a great player with a rich history, but that has nothing to do with the present at hand), the point is that I was very successful with Mega Slowbro, and while you achieved with other things, you struggled with using Mega Slowbro.
I'll admit that xMarth's team is great (as usual, he's a fantastic player), but I think the overhype is definitely real. With all due respect, I don't think you're in a position to tell me that I don't know how to use mons properly or bring out their potential. I've been through 3 generations of tiering and have witnessed USUM develop since its infancy, including helping develop the tiering policies that we're currently using. If that doesn't make me at least somewhat qualified to offer a valid perspective, where do you think you stand? Don't be a hater gator.
You bet I can tell you that you don't know how to use a mon properly, just like you can tell me I'm not using Forretress correctly in ORAS all day long (l o l). You told yourself that when you didn't use it successfully and how you explained it. Just because you watched and helped in the tiering and watched USUM develop (I did too, by the way) doesn't make your perspective any more significant than mine, I've proved that I am competent and I believe that I have a grasp on the tier needed to not be a worthless opinion. I also never said (or implied in the slightest) that you were not qualified to offer a valid perspective, I just haven't seen that valid perspective from you that I would expect. No, it's not about the fact that we're disagreeing. It's about the fact that your "points" are either point-less or are just completely wrong. There's nothing personal about this, nor am I insulting you, you don't need to flaunt your resume like it makes your perspective the definite one.
Mirror matches are not indicative of anything expect you being able to outplay your opponent with the same team. What this has to do with evaluating Mega Slowbro's strength I'll never understand. You guys are operating with identical initial conditions - what practical (biased) data do you hope to get from that? Which one scald burns first? like dude, you said it yourself luck was a huge factor in your game. This is a moot point.
Just because we have the same team doesn't make our teams invalid. We still are using metagame threats and we're both facing them as well. It should come down to straight outplaying, just like you said. But no, due to how Slowbro dominated the game for both sides, it just came down to whoever got lucky first. I don't think either of us misplayed in that game. Slowbro just ran the game for us because of how much of a dominating threat it is. I'd like to hear somebody tell me that I'm wrong.
This was a fun game. It came down to a 50/50. It wasn't your Slowbro that held me to a leash, it was your Scizor. I predicted you to want to keep your Scizor, and switched into Hydreigon for the win. 50/50s are also not indicative of anything beyond your good instincts. Kudos for you for winning that game, but I'd strongly urge you to re-evaluate your position you think that game indicates anything about Mega Bro. I certainly didn't get anything from that game beyond another half-aneurism at losing.
I disagree with you on this on the basis that I know how Slowbro won me the game the second Hydreigon was gone, despite the fact that you had a Swords Dance Scizor sitting in the back. I don't think there is a long drawn out thing to say here.
You're not using Banded Scizor properly if you think it's supposed to take care of a Water-type Tank, of any kind. You're not using Alolan Muk properly if you're trying to beat a Mega Bro in a one on one situation. Z-Thunder Latias is fine at +1 so I'm not sure what your concern is there. Us "pro-unbanners" pretty much just said that Bro is too passive a mon in this tier and that neither it or Mega Bro can put sufficient pressure on the tier to warrant any serious concerns. At the end of the day, tiers are comprised of interlocking webs. Everything effects everything - that's how a tier works. If one element is added to disrupt that web, it needs to be eliminated. Suicune is more of an annoyance with CM with utility like Roar, and Reuniclus is better as a straight up wincon due to its set flexibility. Let's ban those too, no? Cresselia is also extremely bulky, doesn't take up mega slot, has recovery, and has access to an item.
This first sentence made me legitimately angry that I ranted in the UU room on PS. I never said, or even implied that Banded Scizor was supposed to take care of Water-type tanks. What I did say was that I expected Banded Scizor to break through your Psychic-type walls, say the ones you noted, Max defense Cress is taking like 60 from U-turn and Reuiniclus is taking over 80% from it. Mega Slowbro is taking a lot less from a maximum roll than either of those two are taking from a minimum damage roll, plus Cresselia only has 8 PP on recovery in Moonlight. I also never said Alolan Muk was supposed to beat Mega Slowbro, its just that what was previously the best Psychic-type check in the fucking tier gets set up on by a PSYCHIC TYPE. A lot of Pokemon that normally tore apart bulky Psychic types and bulky Water types cannot reliably do it to Mega Slowbro, and this seems to me like something that would prove too powerful for the tier.
Look man, just because the tier isn't used to a new version of a slow-ass bulky wincon, doesn't mean it's in any sense broken, unhealthy, or uncompetitive. I urge you to reflect and play some more games with something you've built yourself so that you can show better and more definitive examples beyond the ones you've posted, because they're not good examples.
What's the difference if I built a team myself or I use one somebody else made? Does it make my point any less valid? If so, then why did you share the import of your team then? Just because you frame something as a slow-ass bulky wincon like any others doesn't mean its more than that, which Mega Slowbro obviously is. You posting a bunch of your replays using Mega Slowbro unsuccessfully doesn't give us anything more than the fact that you don't know how to use it correctly. Those are no good examples.

PS:
Comments like these make me scared because you actually think Breloom is unhealthy and that's just a wrong opinion.
PS:
Comments like these make me scared because you actually think your opinion is the objectively correct one because the self-proclaimed "ORAS God" who is known for being incredibly self absorbed is always right, correct?

edit:
[15:23:26] +King¨̮UU: I can't believe you're gonna make me beat you down again DurzaOffTopic
[15:23:29] +King¨̮UU: I hope you're ready

also while a lot of what Stall is coming said isn't really true I just had to point this out:
*
: without Ice Beam and Psyshock
 
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#21
M-Slowbro is the kind of pokemon which look amazing on paper, maybe too good for the tier.
Of course, he's one of pokemon which can change according to the context of the battle thanks to mega-evolution (Like M-Altaria for example).

First, he can be an pivot thanks to regenerator. Then, after megaevolve, he becomes a dangerous CM user which isn't afraid of critical hits.
The truth is quite different.
First, regenerator is an amazing ability for pivoting. But the type of Slowbro is very bad for this. He's superdamaged by Voltturn and every spikes affects him.

When he megaevolves, he lost this great ability for a very situational ability. And this set have too many counters in the tier:
*
: without Ice beam
*

*
: without Ice Beam
*
: without Ice Beam and Psyshock
*
(with Toxic) ( A stupid 45 spedef pokemon can easily wall every M-Slowbro sets )
*
(with Toxic)
*
: without Psyshock
*
( Physical dark types can't touch Slowbro .... )
*

*
: without Psyshock
*
: without Icebeam
*
( again ... )
*

*

*
( with toxic)

These pokemon are very common, different and can be input in every kind of teams. And we can see that a simple toxic ruins M-Slowbro.

M-Slowbro is a good pokemon, and like Reuniclus and Suicune, a very good user of CM. That's all.

If we speak about my biased experience, I play a classic Ditto stall with the classic core Aloguss. During 40 games, I've seen maybe 15 M-Slowbro, and I can affirm that M-Slowbro is completely useless against Stall. Whereas Reuniclus and Suicune have some options against Stall, M-Slowbro has none. And Everyone know that Stall is common in UU.
 

Attachments

#22
Hello,

I would like to share my thoughts with Mega Bro.

I believe it should be banned.

Despite the fact it can be pressured easily, contrary to what Durza said, Alolan Muk does help, but Bro can actually beat some of the mons by itself if it gets enough boosts. In fact, it can beat its checks by itself. Manectric cannot switch in, as it gets 2HKOed by Scald: neither can Hydreigon, which gets 2HKOed by Ice Beam. U-Turn users barely scratch it due to its massive defense, and the strongest U-Turn in the game from Mega Beedrill is only doing 50%, which Mega Bro can just slack off. It's bad against VoltTurn, yes, but I still believe it's too much for the tier to handle. A lot of "counters" are just actually checks.

I've heard some people compare it to Mega Latias. Although I haven't been there for that meta, I can see why. They are both bulky Psychic-types that can be extremely hard to kill. However, I believe it is worse than Mega Latias for one reason: Regenerator. Regen is actually a broken ability: 33% health on switch is great. It doesn't even need to mega until it knows it can win.

Also, saying Toxic is a counter isn't completely true: it's not hard to slap a cleric on it.

A big thanks to my friends YouthBerry, DurzaOffTopic, vivalospride, and CBU for discussing this with me!
 
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#23
Breloom is lame as f, invalidates/forces dangerous predictions vs a lot of creative or less popular ways to check grass types like occa scizor, roserade, and crobat. But hey, having a differing opinion on a recently dropped suspect means your opinions going forward are objectively wrong so maybe I shouldn't talk about slowbro ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Kink

it's a thug life
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Moderator
#24
It makes me kinda sad to see how people actually agreed with all the meaningless points in the above post.
Whenever I make a post, I always ensure I bring hard evidence and facts supported by hard-logic. Let's see what you poked at as "meaningless" and see which of our arguments hold's more weight.
Oh, how wrong you are. You're thinking of Mega Slowbro in such a wrong manner. You're taking individual traits which Mega Slowbro so very much excels at and pretending like its jobs are mutually exclusive.
No, I'm pretty sure I said that Bro in its entirety fulfills three unique roles that are expected to be accomplished by most other Bulky Water Types in some form or another. When did I ever suggest that they are mutually exclusive roles? Please demonstrate where I say, suggest, or imply that.
The closest bulky water type that sets up is Suicine - but it doesn't have even close to the same utility in that Slowbro has INSTANT recovery; it can have a moveslot for coverage instead of Protect or Sub or whatever varient of Cune that you are running.
So Crocune magically isn't a set anymore? Did you also know that Suicune has Roar, so unless Bro is your final mon and you're already up 2-3 calm minds on Suicune with prior chip damage, you're losing. Oh, and pressure means you'll auto lose bar two crits in a row at +4. Enough with the hyperbole. Infinitely is a stupid word here. After taking into account leftovers, Mega Bro is marginally physically bulkier than Suicune and much worse at taking any kind of Special Attack.
Mega Slowbro also has infinitely higher Defense and a far better Special Attack, and isn't rendered useless if it is hit by Knock Off -- quite the opposite I may say. It's Psychic typing is not a hinderance at all - the point I've been trying to get across this entire time is that Physical Bug and Dark-types don't do ANYTHING to Mega Slowbro as their attacks are not doing enough to sufficiently damage it, since by far the most common of those moves are U-turn and Knock Off respectively.
did you utterly ignore the 5 special attackers (there are many more btw) that can easily pressure Mega Bro? Knock Off is common, but tanks are supposed to be able to take physical hits. If anyone is looking at things as mutually exclusive entities, it's you; super-effective moves and the ability to tank are not mutually exclusive entities in a game where there are stat distributions.
I've showed you in your own damn game, Mega Slowbro 1v1'd your SD Scizor, and Mega Beedrill can't break through it either without Swords Dance and that's a 50/50 as well between Slowbro clicking Slack Off or Scald.
I didn't use a mega beedrill, and I've already explained extremely clearly that your slowbro isn't the reason why you won. The causative effect of that loss was an ill-timed switch caused by a 50/50, nothing more nothing less. If you need me to do a play-by-play to explicate this point and break it down for you so that you can understand the basics of how cause and effect work, I will.
I'm actually offended that you would compare Mega Slowbro to Azelf and Cresselia or Reuiniclus, both of which lack the Physical bulk or Offensive prowess to actually do nearly anything to the level that Mega Slowbro does.
I apologize sincerely that you're offended.
Cresselia's offensive presence is actually God-awful, its quite a pathetic wincon if you want to use it that way (This is coming from somebody who is actually pretty decent at RU (ssnl r10 so far) where Cresselia is a prominent defensive Pokemon)
I like how you say Cresselia or Reuniclus lack physical bulk - Colbur berry exists, not to mention Leftovers offsets a huge portion of the bulk differentiation, particularly for Cress. however, I'm more interested in your "offensive prowess" comment. LO TR, Reuniclus is a monster. NP Azelf can rip through unprepared teams. You don't use CM Cresselia because it has offensive prowess, you use it because it's near impossible to break through via standard offensive means. You don't use CM Reuniclus because it's an impossible to kill Juggernaut, you use it because as a wincon it can beat passive mons better than Cresselia can. The fact that MegaBro can do something similar after a boost or two shouldn't be surprising. Some other mons that are used for the exact same reason include Crocune and Mega Aggron.
This actually shows me that you don't know how it functions in the tier - you're just explaining to us all why you didn't succeed with it when you used it yourself.
I don't recall ever explaining why I'm not succeeding. I recall explaining that despite winning most of my games, Mega Slowbro didn't fulfill a role outside of expectations. Even if I had played properly, there was no telling (meaning, I could not make an objective determination) as to whether or not M-bro would've found success in that game. I'm the kind of person where if I don't know, I say I don't know. I'm not going to give you hyped up pseudo-information just to get more likes. That's not how I do things and I'm certainly not changing my criteria of responsible posting because you think I... "...didn't succeed with it when you used it yourself."
Mega Slowbro is a Jack-Of-All-Trades that is TOO good at all of its jobs - its still a master wincon and Physical wall with INSTANT RELIABLE recovery, unlike ANY other Bulky water type in the tier.
I will grant you that as a Water-type physical wall, it's unparalleled in its ability to take neutral hits. Even Cune can't truly compare even with Leftover recovery, from a purely stat-standpoint. This is what makes Mega Slowbro worth using in the first place, and what gives it its niche as another Bulky-Water than can perform multiple roles.
The Psychic-type sthat you mentioned drop to Knock Off or any other Bug- or Dark-type and don't have the benefit of having the amazing Water-typing that Mega Slowbro has.
I didn't realize Colbur Berry was unreleased. Its Water-typing is a blessing no doubt, and once again is the token element that makes Mega Bro even worth considering for your team.
The best Slowbro set doesn't even make use of Slowbro's Psychic STAB moves, which Reuiniclus (I won't even mention cress because you have no idea how it works) primarily abuses when setting up. Also, Slowbro dropped so far this gen because it isnt as effective in the metagame due to the obvious gen7 power creep. Nothing changed about Psychic typing between ORAS and USUM. It was fine last gen and its still fine this gen, regular Slowbro as a Pokemon just isn't as effective as other Water types for obvious reasons, but with the Mega Evolution I don't see how you can compare the two vastly different Pokemon.
Reuniclus also has the option of 3-4 different coverage moves for its of its respective threats, Trick Room in order to turn the tables, and a Colbur Berry set that takes care of even the strongest Dark-types. I agree with you that one of the elements that caused Slowbro to drop was indeed the power creep; a power creep that Mega Slowbro has a shot at competing in. However it's not just the power creep that made Slowbro fall from OU to NU in 2 generations (if we count SM and USUM as partially separate); you're also ignoring what every other Water-type in the tier does, their role-fulfillment, and why it's hard to convince yourself to choose Slowbro over Tentacruel, Empoleon, Swampert, Prima, Azumarill, and others.

Now, the reason why you have to compare the two (mega and reg bro) is because they're one and the same in any game situation, and once you decide to switch from a defensive pivot regenerator role into a wincon, you need to play a different game. This requires near-perfect execution and team support. All of our S-rank mons can do what they do with almost no support from any other teammate. Mega Slowbro does not fulfill this role. You indicated yourself that you need to defer to Muk or some other check to ensure that Mega Bro survives until the end. If something needs team support in order to even function, it's automatically not an S or even an A+ mon. Again, your own words said with team support, are we going to go through a whole song and dance for that as well?
What does prediction have to do with anything? My point was that Mega Slowbro is incredibly easy to support and that should be a factor when determine someing's place in a tier. If its harder to support or takes more effort / teammates to support well then its not as much of a threat and not nearly as dangerous. All Pokemon need some support, I thnk this is obvious. But Mega Slowbro is incredibly easy to support on its own due to the variety of roles that its able to perform as well as its straightforward position as a wincon.
  • Team Building Skill - the part of skill that is involved in the preparation for a battle
    • Assessing and Dealing with Threats
    • Building Towards a Strategy (or Strategies)
    • Creativity
    • Catering to Metagame / Opponents
  • Battling Skill - the part of skill involved in actually battling
    • Picking the Right Lead
    • Recognizing the Win Condition
    • Picking the Right Move
    • Smart Switching
    • Gathering Information and Making Assumptions
    • Long-term vs. Short-term Goals
    • Assessing Risk
    • Probability Management
    • Prediction

I already responded to your loquacious point regarding team support.
Are you serious about comparing Mega Slowbro to "literally any water type besides empoleon?" Because while that statement would include things like Crawdaunt I'll make the assumption that you know very well that that is not true. But I really can't make assumptions like that considering your previous incredibly invalid comparasons, which I went into detail about above.
forgive me, throughout most of my previous post I was consistently comparing Mega Bro to other bulky Water-types, and assumed that I didn't need to insert another "bulky" for fear that you'd bring up Crawdaunt (?). How little you must think of me.
Yes, we get to look at your biased experience, but the issue with your bias is that you cannot understand how Slowbro is being used and how your incorrect comparisons just reflect your bias. If you gave me valid points I could maybe understand, but showing a bunch of your replays with somebody using Mega Slowbro when they don't know how isn't showing us anything. This isn't a shot at you or your skill (we know you're a great player with a rich history, but that has nothing to do with the present at hand), the point is that I was very successful with Mega Slowbro, and while you achieved with other things, you struggled with using Mega Slowbro.
I explicated in my previous post that I'm of the opinion that had overall success, just not the kind of success I'd expect from something that is "clearly broken" or "unhealthy" or "uncompetitive".
You bet I can tell you that you don't know how to use a mon properly, just like you can tell me I'm not using Forretress correctly in ORAS all day long (l o l). You told yourself that when you didn't use it successfully and how you explained it. Just because you watched and helped in the tiering and watched USUM develop (I did too, by the way) doesn't make your perspective any more significant than mine, I've proved that I am competent and I believe that I have a grasp on the tier needed to not be a worthless opinion. I also never said (or implied in the slightest) that you were not qualified to offer a valid perspective, I just haven't seen that valid perspective from you that I would expect. No, it's not about the fact that we're disagreeing. It's about the fact that your "points" are either point-less or are just completely wrong. There's nothing personal about this, nor am I insulting you, you don't need to flaunt your resume like it makes your perspective the definite one.
I see what you're saying here. Firstly, you're definitely qualified to give an opinion and I certainly recognize your contributions to USUM. Yes, you're competent and I don't think your opinion is worthless by any means whatsoever, I simply think it's one of those opinions that sees certain threads hyperclearly while ignoring/being unable to see the overall effect of how tiering works. It was not my intention to demonstrate that I know better than you because of my history therefore you're auto-wrong, however I'm not just "flaunting my resume" nor will I continue to justify myself to you given what I have witnessed and participated in.
Just because we have the same team doesn't make our teams invalid. We still are using metagame threats and we're both facing them as well. It should come down to straight outplaying, just like you said. But no, due to how Slowbro dominated the game for both sides, it just came down to whoever got lucky first. I don't think either of us misplayed in that game. Slowbro just ran the game for us because of how much of a dominating threat it is. I'd like to hear somebody tell me that I'm wrong.
Once again, mirror matches are not objectively indicative of anything expect you being able to outplay your opponent with the same team in that one game. Kudos to you for outplaying xMarth in that one game. Or I guess in your own words, getting lucky first. That's all you're gonna get from me regarding that.
I disagree with you on this on the basis that I know how Slowbro won me the game the second Hydreigon was gone, despite the fact that you had a Swords Dance Scizor sitting in the back. I don't think there is a long drawn out thing to say here.
Scizor was never my Wincon, Specs Hydreigon vs Mega Slowbro was my only way to win there. After you clicked Bullet Punch a second time I was most certainly doomed to not win. Unless you're suggesting that a bulky Scizor needs to win against Scald more assuredly than what you witnessed? Pretty sure I would've lost against Suicune, Empoleon, and a bunch of other mons in that scenario. Call a spade a spade bud.
This first sentence made me legitimately angry that I ranted in the UU room on PS. I never said, or even implied that Banded Scizor was supposed to take care of Water-type tanks. What I did say was that I expected Banded Scizor to break through your Psychic-type walls, say the ones you noted, Max defense Cress is taking like 60 from U-turn and Reuiniclus is taking over 80% from it. Mega Slowbro is taking a lot less from a maximum roll than either of those two are taking from a minimum damage roll, plus Cresselia only has 8 PP on recovery in Moonlight. I also never said Alolan Muk was supposed to beat Mega Slowbro, its just that what was previously the best Psychic-type check in the fucking tier gets set up on by a PSYCHIC TYPE. A lot of Pokemon that normally tore apart bulky Psychic types and bulky Water types cannot reliably do it to Mega Slowbro, and this seems to me like something that would prove too powerful for the tier.
So Cress Moonlights, Reuniclus Recovers, and Mega Bro Slackoffs. Meanwhile I'm just a good ol' jackoff.

Let's move on.

Muk and like 20 other mons pressure Slowbro or Mega Slowbro to the point of switching out in common 1v1 or switchin scenarios. That kind of mass interplay is normal when a mon is in the B/B+ range and needs moderate support from its teammates.
What's the difference if I built a team myself or I use one somebody else made? Does it make my point any less valid? If so, then why did you share the import of your team then? Just because you frame something as a slow-ass bulky wincon like any others doesn't mean its more than that, which Mega Slowbro obviously is. You posting a bunch of your replays using Mega Slowbro unsuccessfully doesn't give us anything more than the fact that you don't know how to use it correctly. Those are no good examples.
Objectively speaking, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using someone elses team as opposed to one of yours assuming you're willing to see the limitations of what using another persons's team will do to your own analyses. You've said you're competent, I've said you're competent, so build a team, demonstrate that knowledge, share your enhanced experiences, and solidify your credibility. I made a half-decent standard balance teams designed to at least moderately take advantage of the roles Slowbro performs. I had 1-2 games in my 26 where M-Slowbro itself saved me, about 2 games where Regenerator Bro saved me, and 1 game where the combination of the two saved me. All in all, that's about a 20% reliance rate on a wincon in a scenario where I more-or-less trust my builds, playing, and intuition.

Anyway dude you'll probably want to reply to this, great I'll totally read it and talk to you in chat, but I probably won't be replying anymore on thread because this took an hour and I still have to do my part 3 of Mega Slowbro series.
 
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