np: USUM UU Stage 6.2 - Reggaetón Lento

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Not yet Yung Dramps but maybe it will during the next shift early April.

I think we should wait to get the usages but if what xMarth said happened, UU is going to be a pure mess.
Like, without Amoonguss there is a plethora of Pokemon which became much more threatening (Azumarill, Breloom, Serperior and even Pokemon like Slowbro-Mega or Primarina).

I can definitively see Serperior become too dangerous since it would not need any more Z-Hyper Beam to break through Amoonguss. SubSeed will become a pain in the ass to deal with. For Breloom, it's kinda the same thing since it would not need any more some random lure to pass Amoonguss (NG Ice, Z-Giga Impact etc..). I think Azumarill would be better but not too much since we have other Pokemon than Amoonguss to deal pretty well w/ Azu (like Def Sr Celebi, Slowbro-Mega, Mola or event Tentacruel or Volcanion).

If Gliscor rise too, it would be a big loss since it's really good in Stall or in Balanced / BO. This Pokemon can check a lot of things like Scarf Hydra which is pretty big if your team lack off DM Switch-in. Gliscor bring so much utility in Underused (it can SR or Defog, it can be a Win Con w/ SD or a Stallbreaker with Taunt or Sub Toxic, even a Pivot w/ U-Turn..).
 
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G-Luke

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So I'd like to open some topics for discussion regarding some of our newer additions to the tier as well as the possibilities of what the upcoming tier shift might bring. I think this vote on Mega Slowbro will result in prolonging the heavily team match up based meta where we need to use Pokemon that blanket check a significant portion of the tier on all teams. It has been near impossible to properly cover large portions of our current meta without having critical weaknesses to quite a few Pokemon since before USUM. The addition of Z-moves this generation and a plethora of new mons has lead the tier to have to adapt several times since UU beta. Adaptation works in the short term to balance out the tier but I don't think it creates a healthy metagame when we have had to adapt to so many threats this generation. Each adaptation has an opportunity cost and if we continue to adapt I'm sure the gaps in our teams will get much larger.

As for the upcoming tier shift, from what I can tell from last months usage and past metagame trends it is likely we lose two staples of the tier in Gliscor and Amoonguss. In the ou1825 stats each have about 5% usage which is pretty far above the cutoff. Given that in the past the higher rated stats have been an indicator to future metagame trends, I think it's likely that they rise to ou. In this case we might need to rethink some of the recent tiering decisions.

Breloom and Azumarill are two Pokemon that benefit greatly from Amoonguss' departure in particular. Amoonguss is one of the only reliable checks to both these Pokemon that can actually stay healthy throughout a game thanks to Regenerator. I think if Amoonguss rises there are certainly going to be suspects for these Pokemon and that there is even a case to be made for it now. Azumarill was voted back into the tier by a close 6-5 council vote and was has not yet had a community decision made on it. Breloom was suspected alongside a decidedly more broken Pokemon in Buzzwole and I think it would've been banned on its own. Buzzwole used Breloom as setup fodder which certainly means in a Buzzwole meta Breloom is much less of a problem. Amoonguss also saw a 4% increase from the month prior to that ladder and it actually outnumbered the number of Brelooms which I'm sure impacted the perception of how broken Breloom actually turned out to be.

I'd like to hear some of other players thoughts on our current meta and how it could change with the upcoming tier shift.
Remember that the next shifts will take into account trends over the last three months, and if the stats were consistently lower for January and February, a spike in March probs won't make it be snagged up. But Gliscor in particular isnt butt in OU and it would be a shame for it to rise.
 
Sorry to derail, I thought the tiering decisions were based off of 1695 stats, not 1800. In 1695, Amoonguss and Gliscor both still hover around the 3% range. They may move up in a future cycle (like the summer tier shift) but probably not this one.
 
I don't really think Amoonguss leaving would impact Serp an enormous amount. I've seen successful teams of most archetypes that have dealt with Serperior absolutely fine without needing to run an Amoonguss. It gets better for sure, anything will when a good defensive response leaves but it's not like Amoonguss was unbeatable for Serperior especially with the amount of Defense they're running for Azu and Loom these days, I just think the metagame has adapted well enough to it.

Amoonguss leaving definitely impacts teambuilding massively when considering Azumarill responses, as the Z set was one of the few good ways to insure a team against all variants of Azumarill, albeit still not too great in some scenarios (CB Ice Punch, needs to be at max vs BD if SR are up). Take Amoong away and the viable pool of pokemon that can reliably do this falls to a very limited number of pokemon such as Tentacruel. I think this could potentially be hugely limiting on teambuilding as Azu was already the best free turn abuser in the tier, and it just gets better at that. Stall can still deal with Azu using the Alo/Unaware/Fat Fairy resist method, but anyone wanting to build balance and doesn't want to be forced into extremely uncomfortable positions when they load up the bunny is going to find it difficult to get away from using the same pkmn repeatedly.

I think Breloom benefits even more from the Amoonguss loss because you don't just lose a counter from the perspective of preventing you being swept by a boosted Breloom, you lose an option to stop Breloom dropping sleep freely which is definitely going to change how some teams adapt to dealing with it. In general it's pretty obvious that people are going to have to explore different Grass types more often to deal with both this and Azu, but those Grass types either have far more shortcomings in the metagame overall compared to Amoong, or just generally don't deal with these pokemon nearly aswell, especially in the case of Azu because none of them other than Vileplume and Roserade resist Fairy.

Wrote more than I intended on Amoong so I don't have time for Glis right now just to say that I really wouldn't mind it leaving, I think it's been shit to deal with for a while now and just has a combination of traits that makes it undesirable to build for or play against.
To be frank, I think you're understating how much a counter Amoonguss is to Breloom, and how if it leaves Breloom will become an absolute menace to the tier (saying this as someone who has abused the ever-living shit outta breloom since it got dropped...hey, give me some credit for being impartial here). In addition to what you said, Amoonguss not only resists BOTH of brelooms STABs, but also is not KO'd from a +2 hit from its most common alternate coverage move, rock tomb:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 272-320 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

This give a full health Amoonguss the ability to stomach the hit and go for clear-smog. This forces the opponent to make a 50-50 call whether or not to try to swords dance again predicting the switch for regen or attempt to go for a second Rock Tomb at neutral and pray for a max-roll to KO. Granted, in this scenario the 50-50 is in the favor of the Breloom user, but in any other scenario Breloom is hard-countered by Amoonguss. This alternate coverage also forces Breloom to sac one of its other offensive moves (usually Bullet Seed, because Mach Punch Priority is essential for a sweep), which opens up new problems as well for the shroom (it'd be the one time you see a Breloom get walled by a quagsire on stall teams). If amoonguss leaves, Breloom doesn't just lose A counter; it loses its ONLY true counter in the tier and moreover the ONLY thing keeping it in line in the tier. The only other really viable check to a +2 Sweeper Breloom is Latias (and note that I say CHECK; taking 50% from a +2 MP or getting put to bed by Spore don't bode particularly well for the Red Rocket); everything else gets blown away like Sasha Grey by its dual STAB. I think if Amoonguss leaves in April a suspect of Breloom is more than required (possibly even a council look or quickban if deemed necessary)
 
I personally feel that Mega Slowbro much more helps the tier rather than hurts it. We might even see more bulky 3 attack sets rather than calm mind purely because of the mons it is able to switch in to. It provides us with great answers to dual dance terrakion and cobalion, azumarill, kommo-o, volcanion, aero, stakataka, talonflame, kyurem etc. I know im kinda late but that's just my opinion on it.
 

dingbat

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I think Azu would have been a prime suspect candidate regardless of the potential Amoonguss/Gliscor departure from UU since this tier is already strapped of reliable Choice Band switch-ins and Perish Trap completely fucks things up on their own, especially when your opponent isn't packing shit that can pressure Azu offensively, carry U-Turn/Volt Switch, Substitute, or Shed Shell. However, I definitely agree that Amoonguss's departure alone would raise red flags on Azu/Breloom since it is one of the most reliable checks to those two.

Sorry to derail, I thought the tiering decisions were based off of 1695 stats, not 1800. In 1695, Amoonguss and Gliscor both still hover around the 3% range. They may move up in a future cycle (like the summer tier shift) but probably not this one.
OU tiering is based off 1760 stats, which you were probably referencing anyways; below are what the actual numbers are, directly from Antar's thread:

February
| 52 | Gliscor | 3.084% |
| 58 | Amoonguss | 2.402% |

March
| 52 | Gliscor | 2.970% | -0.114%
| 53 | Amoonguss | 2.947% | +0.545% (another similar rise in usage could push it up to OU)
---------------------------------------
numbers on shit that are sitting around the UU line

February
| 46 | Darmanitan | 4.487% |
| 47 | Seismitoad | 4.373% |
| 49 | Terrakion | 4.215% |
| 50 | Forretress | 4.102% |
| 55 | Lucario | 3.632% |
| 56 | Nihilego | 3.557% |
| 57 | Raikou | 3.543% |
| 58 | Arcanine | 3.223% |
| 59 | Entei | 3.161% |
| 60 | Metagross | 3.159% |
| 64 | Moltres | 2.519% |
| 67 | Mienshao | 2.276% |


March
| 51 | Seismitoad | 3.971% | -0.402% (should drop down to RU again eventually)
| 52 | Nihilego | 3.948% | +0.391% (gonna stay UU)
| 53 | Raikou | 3.884% | +0.341% (gonna stay UU)
| 54 | Forretress | 3.864% | -0.238% (could drop to RU at a later shift)
| 55 | Darmanitan | 3.769% | -0.718% (could drop to RU at a later shift)
| 56 | Terrakion | 3.709% | -0.506% (it'll recover and stay UU)
| 57 | Metagross | 3.572% | +0.413% (will barely remain UU)
| 58 | Arcanine | 3.480% | +0.257% (hopefully this thing drops in usage again)
| 59 | Lucario | 3.372% | -0.260% (gonna miss out on UU cut)
| 60 | Entei | 3.153% | -0.006% (gonna drop to RU)
| 64 | Mienshao | 2.449% | +0.173% (gonna drop to RU)
| 66 | Moltres | 2.340% | -0.179% (will go up in usage, but probably won't hit UU cut)


I'm also fairly late on this, but Pearl and a few others summed up most of my thoughts well on the nature of suspect tests. One thing I'd like to add myself is that the GXE/game requirement could be adjusted depending on the timing of suspect tests, but I think 82 GXE/50 games is as high as requirements should go. Most good or well known players could probably still break the 82 GXE mark by a huge margin (won't include myself because I've had suspects where I broke 85 GXE as well as suspects where I couldn't break 75), but we're looking at GXE values that are excessively subjective since one can only have so many good matchups before he/she run into inevitable losses that have varying degrees of impact on GXE. As for 50 games, I just chose 50 because it looks pretty :>
 
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Yung Dramps

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golisopod is broken
Golisopod @ Choice Band
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Liquidation
- Leech Life
- Poison Jab / Spikes / Knock Off / Drill Run

First Impression is the crown jewel of this set, as you may imagine. The speed EVs are to outspeed base 50s, notably Azumarill and Muk-Alola.

252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 282-333 (108 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 222-264 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod First Impression vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Tentacruel: 135-159 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manectric-Mega: 187-222 (66.5 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 298-352 (84.9 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod First Impression vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 250-295 (57.8 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod First Impression vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 181-214 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 426-502 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 145-171 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nihilego: 213-251 (59.3 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 256-303 (65.4 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
i think i've gotten the point across


Thankfully, First Impression has many switch-ins, like Hippowdown, Crobat, Togekiss, Chandelure, Stakataka, Gengar, Infernape, Cobalion, Gliscor and Mega Aerodactyl. Too bad almost all of these get smacked by Liquidation!

When that's said and done, Golisopod's switch-ins get narrowed down to...
Azumarill, Primarina and Mega Altaria (All of these hate Poison Jab)
Mega Aggron (Gets worn down easily without Wish support)
Suicune
Alomomola
Volcanion (Can be sniped by Drill Run if you're feeling badass)
Empoleon (Falling off heavily atm, gets worn down)
Doublade and Jellicent (Both are practically non-existant usage-wise and hate the possibility of Knock Off)

So all in all, you have a grand total of 2 common Pokemon that can consistently check Golisopod defensively without having to worry about being worn down or fearing a potential coverage option.

So obviously, the best option is to check it offensively, right? But don't forget, Golisopod has 75/140/90 defenses, so wearing it down can be a pain in the ass. And that's where Leech Life comes into the picture, allowing Golisopod to heal off damage while doing damage.

"B-b-b-but EMERGENCY EXIT LOLOLOLOL GOLISOPOD BAD U DUMB HAHA"

Literally shut the hell up, Emergency Exit is actually a fire ability. Ever wanted to cuck VoltTurn? EE is there. Need to check a sweeper without having to sack Golisopod itself? EE is there.

So yeah, that's Golisopod. Just pack some good hazard removal (this thing forms a baller defensive core with standard Defog Gliscor) and something that can handle Stall better, and you should have a pretty good time with this mon.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-726104859
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-726101478

yeah yeah, i know, but of these are low ladder, but this is more just to give you an idea of how an ideal match with Golisopod should go. I'll keep laddering with this, promise
 
Choice Band First Impression is the biggest momentum sapper known to mankind. I'd rather use slacking than CB First Impression. It's literally CB Fake Out but a bit stronger. I don't see what value it brings to the table. It has pretty horrid typing and is outclassed by both Water-types and Bug-types and Spike setters alike. I don't know what you think this mon does, and I think your mindset is completely wrong. Innovation isn't taking a cool Pokemon that is kinda strong and throwing it out there. It has to have a purpose and I don't see the purpose of Golisopod. Between its rock weakness, no recovery making it a 1 time deal, and pretty mediocre defensive typing it makes its ability a shitty one, rather than a good thing that could act as a natural pivot. In a tier filled with much better Bug-types and Water-types, Golisopod has no place in this meta.

If anything, I'd maybe use some Insect Plate set but thats some weak sauce.



edit: Freeroamer you're literally doing everything you're calling people out for... nobody really needs or wants to hear your "voice of reason", just give your point on the discussion or don't, because what you're doing just adds to the unneeded drama :/

also you end up with stuff like this :eyes:

edit 2: Yung dramps your calcs hurt your case. Most of the calcs you provided do not OHKO, leaving the opposing Pokemon with a free attack, switch, or recovery with no pressure or risk at all. The momentum loss is so detrimental to the team that Goli is actually unviable.
 
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Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
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Can we not be dicks when someone has clearly taken the time to write up a detailed analysis of the Pokemon and why they think it’s viable? Durza’s post was somewhat ok because he at least addressed some of the issue the set posted faced but the rest of you are fishing for likes I guess? Idk poor effort. I’m going to at least try the set seeing as the guy made such a case for it, then if it turns bad at least I have some actual evidence yanno
 
I think Golisopod has a defined niche and that's through its incredibly powerful dual-STAB priority. I would run Jet over some filler in the last slot because it expands the amount of pokemon you can effectively revenge kill, actually being able to kill things like Nidoking and Nihilego that First Impression misses out on. Furthermore, the threat of this priority forces a lot of mons out, giving Golisopod the opportunity to fire off its more reliable, powerful STABs in Liquidation and Leech Life, creating a dangerous 50/50 situation. Given that, however, I find Golisopod to be rather lackluster in actually executing this niche. Most of what Golisopod does Azumarill does better, with the same strong priority, a much better typing, and better coverage. Golisopod on its own also just suffers in the tier, for many of the reasons Durza listed. It's slow, weak to rocks, has a shit ability, and has an offensive typing that lets in two of the most dangerous set-up sweepers for free. I don't think Golisopod is an awful or unviable pokemon, if anything I think the reintroduction of Mega Slowbro could mean a lot for the viability of a physical Bug-type wallbreaker. I do think, however, that the amount of team support it needs, its numerous shortcomings, and the fierce competition it faces relegates it to a very niche and team-specific role. If I wanted a strong priority user, I'd almost never consider Golisopod in the face of Azumarill or even Breloom.

(Can't we all just get along? :heart:)
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
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It's been a while since I've last posted anything other than QC checks or VR ranking updates so I figured I'd talk about what I make of the current meta, as this thread could use some more activity. A lot of people I've talked to about the metagame say that it seems stagnant, but in all honesty I think that people really aren't picking up on the fact that Mega Slowbro dropping changed a lot of Pokemon's viability. There are also some other meta trends benefiting mons that I feel are going generally unnoticed. So I guess without further ado, I present to you what I believe to be some super underrated Pokemon.


This guy always seems to get mixed reviews. I know that my main man palkia246 is in love with Rotom-C, but I also know that a lot of people find it underwhelming due to its lackluster power and Speed. Regardless, I think that Rotom-C is pretty slept on right now and wish that a lot more people would catch on to the perks that come with using it. One thing I absolutely love is the STAB combination. Sure, it leaves you walled by Latias, Hydreigon, Amoonguss, and Alolan Muk, but I feel like that's adequately offset by the amount of Pokemon it pressures reliably. Mega Slowbro is in my honest opinion the absolute hardest Pokemon to stand up to in the tier because if it gets one free turn your team can just lose. However, using Rotom-C more frequently has basically erased fear of being completely overpowered by Mega Bro because of how well it pressures it with the Grassium Z set, which is admittedly pretty insane. It also takes advantage of a few other recent metagame trends, which include the surge in usage and viability of Hippowdon, Azumarill continuing its dominance (I personally find Rotom-C to be one of the best offensive Azu checks available), and Rhyperior recently emerging as a decent threat and showing up on a surprising amount of teams recently. It also has fantastic synergy with a lot of staples on offensive builds, most notably Infernape, Scizor, and Gliscor. I just feel like there's a lot to love about Rotom-C and that its few issues can be easily circumvented (it volt switches on its defensive countermeasures, can viably run Scarf to overcome its paltry speed, has great synergy with plenty of Pokemon that take on its most prevalent defensive checks). Great Pokemon overall, and so slept on that even Sage of the 6 calls it resident sleeper. Love this thing.


Tsareena is another Grass-type that I'm pretty high on right now. Its Choice Band and Meadow Plate sets really flourish against some of the tier's more currently popular archetypes, which include bulky offense, balance, and especially stall. Being a physical attacker that can easily power through Mega Slowbro is extremely impressive and a trait that seems to be greatly under appreciated right now, and as a Rapid Spinner it really adequately pressures a myriad of the tier's common rockers, like Hippowdon, Swampert, and Gliscor. It's also a fantastic way of pressuring stall's prominent Quagsire/Blissey/Alomomola core, while Queenly Majesty is also pretty sick for heavily pressuring Azumarill and Breloom and taking care of Scizor in emergency situations. Like Rotom-C, it has apparent struggles but I've generally found that those are more often than not relatively easy to circumvent. Knock Off is extremely burdensome for some of its better paper switch-ins in Amoonguss and Moltres, and U-turn is also a great tool for pivoting it out of predicted switch-ins to the likes of Mega Aggron and defensive checks that have already had their items knocked off. The Speed can be an issue but it's also worth noting that nothing that outruns and pressures it is reliably switching in It's just a really solid threat that I feel has continued to find more of a place in the metagame, and despite the hate train it got smacked with in SM, I think it deserves more usage than ever.


It may seem odd referring to a Pokemon residing in the A rankings of the VR as underrated, though I think that Mega Slowbro has horribly lacked the usage that a Pokemon so centralizing really deserves. There are really almost no 100% reliable means of dealing with it, since as soon as it gets a free turn and boosts up it's extremely hard to muscle past. Pokemon like Chandelure, Mega Houndoom, Gengar, and Serperior become shaky checks due to the threat of failing to KO a boosted Mega Slowbro and getting smacked with one of Scald/Ice Beam/Psyshock. Another gigantic perk of using this mon that I don't think enough people have caught onto is that it's actually one of the most reliable Azumarill switch-ins in the tier. It has similar Azumarill-hit-tanking capabilities as Mega Aggron, but key access to recovery that can allow it to consistently check one of the hardest Pokemon to continuously defensively stand up to in the tier. I don't know, I just don't feel like I see enough of this guy and that everything he brings to teams is seriously undervalued if his current usage is factored. It's capable of contributing heavily to the vast majority of the tier's best team archetypes, and I think more people need to hop on the Mega Slowbro train and at least give the poor thing a try, it was BL once for a reason.


It's really no secret that this has been a bit of a weird generation for Celebi. It just feels like metagame trends are both constantly benefitting it and working against it. Scizor is prevalent, Serperior gives it competition, it lost the ability to check Rotom-W, Pursuit is still a valuable and frequently used tool, and Flying-types like Crobat, Mega Pidgeot, and Moltres have recently increased viability. However, I think right now is the most viable our little onion pixie has been since super early SM, since it just matches up against so much of the metagame well. It super reliably takes on every defensive threat that rose in usage to adapt to Serperior being around, the main examples being Amoonguss, Mega Aggron, and Alolan Muk due to its crucial access to Earth Power and a secondary Psychic-typing. Its bulk and typing is also really useful for tanking hits from stuff like Mega Slowbro and Breloom that Serperior stands up to way less reliably. I just think that metagame trends threw Celebi a massive bone recently and that it now has a lot more that it can use to separate itself from its main competition. Nasty Plot's biggest issue for me is how hard it can be to fit on a team due to how awkward Grass-types generally just are to have on teams, but regardless I really like Celebi right now and hope to see it used some more, it's been a rough couple of months and it now seems like this poor thing could finally deserve some more love.


A lot of people are already catching on to the Rhyperior hype, but I still want to talk about this thing because it's pretty awesome. Rhyperior just has such an unexpectedly solid niche in the metagame due to being an outstanding Mega Manectric answer that isn't super passive like Hippowdon and a lot of Gliscor sets. Stealth Rock + 3 Attacks is my favorite set, though Swords Dance is also really nice for overpowering stuff like Latias and Gliscor if you can find a way to fit it onto the set. In addition to checking one of the tier's most centralizing specially offensive Pokemon, it matches up super well in the recently Flying-types (most notably Moltres, Mega Pidgeot, and Crobat), and also isn't too shabby against a few other metagame staples, like Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Altaria, Alolan Muk, and Togekiss. This guy's just super solid and I can't stress how oddly fascinating it is that it just kind of emerged from nowhere and everyone began really enjoying themselves using it. I'd recommend, on paper its 4x weaknesses are troublesome but damn it's so good at doing exactly what you fit it on teams to do, and I could see it having a well established place in the tier not far from now.

This post went on for longer than I had hoped, but I just can't help but ramble about these mons lol. I hope you guys enjoyed and consider using all of these Pokemon, since I've been really pleasantly surprised at how they've all managed to improve and further distinguish themselves in this new metagame! Thanks for reading and hope you all liked what I had to say! :)
 
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So, Amoong left us today. What does this mean?

Azu - Please ban. This was ban-worthy regardless of whether Amoong left or not, but now this thing is probably going to get banned by the weekend or a council vote.

Breloom - mixed. People were bitching about this thing before Amoong left, but now there will probably be more. Loom could beat it with Z-Giga Impact and Ganlon Natural Gift, but now it doesnt have to use either item as much to beat it.

Rotom-C - Cool mon, getting even better with Amoong leaving.

Serperior - fine imo. Of course, Amoong was Serps best check that could be muscled through w/ Z-Hyper Beam, but we still have other things to handle it.

Tsareena - Underrated mon, lost a good counter with Amoong leaving.

Thats all for now.
 

Cynde

toasty
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we still have underrated counters like venusaur and ferroseed and maybe even foonguss or vileplume, lets not get trigger happy about azumarill so quickly!

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 147-173 (42.9 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Foongus: 153-180 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO
 
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MANNAT

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I know everyone's worried about broken ass Azu and how good that thing is without Amoonguss, but there's a couple other mons I wanna talk about.

Serprior is gonna be really good now that it can afford to run SubSeed because it can completely decimate teams with it. Celebi is going to have to run physdef to deal with Breloom, so subseed hp fire is going to be super good because you can wear down your checks until theyre in storm into +2 storm/hp fire range, which isn't really that hard considering how quickly seeds can wear a lot of mons down. Honestly, I think that this thing could very well see a suspect test along with Azumarill because of how potent Substitute sets can be and its increased freedom movepool-wise making it much more annoying to deal with in general.


I think that Breloom gets a good bit better with Amoonguss leaving the tier. There's still plenty of answers around like Celebi and some offensive stalk mons so I don't think it's broken like Azu is, but it's definitely going to be super annoying for some teams to handle without one of its best checks hanging around. I definitely wanna try out FightZ Focus Punch + Spore in the next couple weeks more to see how it is.
 
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Kink

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I see a couple of things happenings regarding Amoonguss leaving us for OU. None of these are council confirmed they're all just my personal opinion based on my experiences with tiering and UU.

1) I think the consequences of this tier shift come at a very inconvenient moment. April is generally considered the beginning of the tour season, with two major tournaments (UUPL + UULT) running concurrently. This means that any tiering decision, in this specific case, needs to, more than ever, really consider the integrity of matches for tournament UUPL players as well as the high-level ladder players competing in UULT. As a result, decisions such as an "Azumarill" suspect might be difficult to make, since (you) hope that consistency will be kept throughout the tour(s). However, given Azu's clear inability to be stopped as of now, I think the direction the council might lean towards is to quick-ban azu for the remainder of these two tours, at least until there's a little breathing room to suspect it (not that I think it will ever return under current conditions). I think a regular suspect test would really drag on the instability of the tier which absolutely needs to be addressed asap for the aforementioned reasons regarding tour and match integrity. One of the few reasons I can see the council avoiding a quick-ban and insist on a suspect test is the lack of major precedent in this tier in this generation. However, these kinds of decisions have been made in OU and other tiers before. I'm very curious to see what'll end up happening with the council's decision.

2) With Amoong gone, there are certain Pokemon that will step up in an attempt to fulfill the type of checking and pivoting that Amoong did so well, such as against Fighting-types (which is half the reason more of us feel uneasy with Breloom). Pokemon such as more defensive Celebi variants and Rotom-C will see a rise in usage, Tsareena might finally have enough breathing room to run some creative sets, and with one of the best Hazing moves - Clear Smog - gone, I anticipate Serperior will be more unleashed resulting in a faster paced meta and a future potential suspect if it can't be held in check. Breloom no longer has many reasons to run its Natural Gift or Z-Giga sets making it free to rely on more tier-oriented sets vs Amoong oriented sets.

3) The state of UU itself will change. Amoong's style of play was pivot oriented. That's not to say that Celebi or Rotom-C can't pivot, but their response to checks will be different because a) the above mons all check different things and b) none of them are able to 'regenerate' their HP nearly as well as Amoong can. Balance and BO playstyles that absolutely loved the precise style of Amoong's play will have to adjust their strategies and rethink their longterm plans regarding longevity and pivoting. One thing amongst many that Amoong could do that neither Celebi or Rotom-c will ever be able to do is handle almost every Scizor variant with the simple combination of Spore + Foul Play. These relationships that were so heavily dependent on one-another, in terms of battle "flow", and said new relationships will change the way UU currently "feels" as other mons fill the void, and as such UU will end up different than what we've known for the last little while. Even being a Poison-type was very helpful to Amoong, for example being one of the only Grass-types that didn't mind staying in on a Muk, and had the ability to handle it with Spore.

Some concluding thoughts, I'm amazed at how well Amoonguss really glued this tier together. Its departure is going to create some cool new relationships in the tier and I look forward to exploiting them against all of you guys ;)

I'm sure gonna miss this mon.
 
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I think that we should pay attention during the next few days and weeks to Azumarill and Breloom. Breloom doesn't have to run anymore some gimmicks like Z-Giga Impact while Azumarill just need Koff now and not Ice Punch anymore. I could see Serperior becoming really good since it can now abuse of its SubSeed set and doesn't need anymore Z-Hyper Beam to break through Amoonguss.

Even if we didn't get any new Pokemon during this shift, I'm pretty sure the metagame gonna change a lot.
 

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I understand that your views are yours only and not that of the council Kink, but I think quickbanning Azumarill instantly for these big tours is sweeping the problem under the rug and dealing with it in a pretty inefficient way given that the flaws of the suspect process are pretty well documented. I would rather see in particular in UUPL whether players feel they are able to still build to be able to handle Azumarill without Amoonguss, and then if it deemed too overbearing after a week or two, enforce the quickban. UUPL has the best builders and players in the tier invested into prepping etc. which isn’t actually a luxury you get very often with most UU suspects, with the ladder usually being the only reference point. Cynde already listed some creative responses to Azumarill, and I still refuse to believe that every bulky squad had to have Amoonguss otherwise it wasn’t viable as a team is purely down to Azu alone, so I think seeing how players deal with it in the tour environment could prove useful information with regards to Azus future in UU or otherwise.
 
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Kink

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I understand that your views are yours only and not that of the council Kink, but I think quickbanning Azumarill instantly for these big tours is sweeping the problem under the rug and dealing with it in a pretty inefficient way given that the flaws of the suspect process are pretty well documented. I would rather see in particular in UUPL whether players feel they are able to still build to be able to handle Azumarill without Amoonguss, and then if it deemed too overbearing after a week or two, then enforce the quickban if Azumarill really is that impossible to handle. UUPL has the best builders and players in the tier invested into prepping etc. which isn’t actually a luxury you get very often with most UU suspects, with the ladder usually being the only reference point. Cynde already listed some creative responses to Azumarill, and I still refuse to believe that every bulky squad had to have Amoonguss otherwise it wasn’t viable as a team is purely down to Azu alone so I think seeing how players deal with it in the tour environment could prove useful information with regards to Azus future in UU or otherwise.
I think this is a very valid point and could be a reasonable alternative to my suggestion, though I still think getting rid of Azu is #1 on the UU's to-do list.
 
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