np: USUM UU Stage 7.1 - Controversy (Breloom banned from UU)

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UU & Tour Head
#1

With UUPL in its final week and UU Open still several weeks out, this is the perfect time to address any controversial elements in the tier. So, it's finally time to address the elephant in the room, the 'mon that has been terrorizing UU for far too long with its red metal claws and-- wait, no, not that one. Yes, as is long overdue, we're finally going to send the eon duo member that's been wrea-- no, no, that's not right either. Just what are we suspecting, anyhow?


Yes, as is a surprise to exactly no one, we are suspecting Breloom! This 'mon has been generating lots of discussion as of late. It was unbanned in a public suspect in January and survived two council votes by a decisive margin. However, there has always been a vocal group who disagreed with its initial unbanning, and once Amoonguss rose to OU, the ban Breloom crowd grew a lot larger.

What makes Breloom such a divisive figure? A big part of the equation is Spore, which makes switching into Breloom always a risky endeavor. Furthermore, Breloom's damage potential is extremely high: a LO 5-hit Technician Bullet Seed, while rare, hits even harder than CB Victini's V-Create or Medicham-Mega's High Jump Kick. The threat of Spore or a high roll Bullet Seed can make Breloom extremely hard to reliably counter. Breloom also has access to some underutilized sets that can help punish some of its usual answers, most notably Poison Heal Facade.

On the other hand, Breloom's low Speed and poor bulk means it has great difficulty safely coming into play, as the vast majority of the tier has a way of punishing or 2HKOing Breloom and quite a lot outspeeds it. Of the 18 'mons currently in S through A ranks, at least 17 of them all have ways of reliably pressuring Breloom. While it has priority to help bypass its low Speed, Fighting is a commonly resisted type in UU, and the omnipresence of threats like Latias and Altaria in the current meta have held Breloom back. Breloom's poor performance in recent tours only serves to highlight these drawbacks: in the recent UUPL, the majority of which was played in the post-Amoonguss meta, Breloom has the lowest win-rate of any of the top 15 'mons at 33%.

So now, UU, the choice is up to you: should Breloom remain in UU, or should it join Conkeldurr, Diggerbsy and Salamence in UUBL?

The ladder requirements for this suspect test are simple:
  • A minimum of 40 games on the suspect ladder, and
  • A minimum GXE of 80.
That's it! The ladder will remain up for 9 days.

Eyan and The Immortal, please set up a UU suspect ladder at your earliest convenience. Breloom is legal on the suspect ladder.

Happy laddering!


 

Sage

Properly Beautiful
is a Pre-Contributor
#3
Heya, gonna attempt to clarify some of DNB's points since they haven't been as prevalent in the threads leading up to 7.1. Will be using a lot of UUPL replays to show why Breloom struggles to swing matches as much as it looks like it should on paper.

Overview
Right off the bat, we can see Breloom struggling to perform consistently in the higher levels of play. It's at #12 usage in UUPL overall, which shows that it is definitely a top threat, but not as dominating as the likes of Latias or Scizor. However it has a poor 33% winrate, suggesting that either the current meta handles it relatively well, or Breloom is inconsistent in performing its role. Looking through some tour games we can see how it can not do as well as one might expect. I watched almost every UUPL game with a Breloom in it, I would suggest people do the same before they entrench themselves in one camp or the other.

Metagame and Teambuilding with Breloom

Consistent Defensive Answers:


I am mostly referencing the defensive Gliscors seen on Stall and sometimes Balance, but regular Gliscors with Facade / Ice Fang aren't bait either. Defensive Celebi and Doublade are hard Counters, Breloom will have no chance of breaking through them by itself bar hax. Offensive Celebi still is a great chance, and the teams its on will not give Breloom nearly as many free turns as those Defensive Celebi would be on. Altaria has to find time to Mega Safely (which it can do on non-Rock Tomb Loom), but after that is one of the most consistent answers we have. These Pokemon all have seen usage on Stall and Balance teams to prevent them from being run over by Breloom to good success. Breloom can have utility vs stall, but it needs support to do this. Altaria and Gliscor aren't super bothered by Pursuit either, one of the things I think gives Stall the breathing room it needs.

Solid Checks:


All of these Pokemon can safely come in on multiple Breloom moves, with most of them fearing Rock Tomb. Togekiss and Chandelure can even run Sleep Talk on Choice sets to compress your need for a sleep answer, while Kommo-o has Overcoat to nullify spore. These Pokemon can be found on a wide range of playstyles and you can feel generally comfortable using them as your main answer for Breloom with proper scouting and a soft check / RKer or two to support them.

Soft Checks and RKers:


This section basically boils down to Mach Punch resists that OHKO Breloom, with some of them being able to come in more easily than others (Gengar on Poison Heal, Lati on non high roll Bullet Seed, Tsar on Spore). These will all outspeed and kill it, really showing the amount of Mach Punch resists we have that can also serve as soft checks if you lose your main one to Sleep. Even if we aren't considering the Lures and Niche Options I go into detail about below, I think what I've listed so far shows a decent amount of counterplay to Breloom and how it has to nail predictions in order to really go to work against them.

Pursuit: Pursuit is often maligned as one of the main things helping push Breloom into broken territory, but in practice I don't really think its as effective of a strategy vs every build as one would think. Looking at the main answers i've established above, Celebi, Chandelure, Latias, Starmie and Gengar are bothered heavily by Pursuit, with Crobat and Molt definitely not appreciating it either. That still leaves about half of those checks relatively unbothered by it. Pursuit users can be taken advatange of as well. Muk is one of the easiest Pokemon to punish in the tier, Scizor generally has to lock into Pursuit to trap something, same with Krookodile. Maero is definitely the most flexible of these, but it also is a weaker trapper than the rest of its brethren. I think the ban argument that Breloom + pursuit makes it unhealthy is pretty lazy and doesn't really explore all the routes of counterplay that exist.

Lures:


You can also take advantage of Loom especially with Water-types that it tries to use for free turns. Offensive Swamperts have seen a slight uptick in usage, with CB doing hefty damage even on stab or straight up killing with Ice Punch, and Icium Z which originally hit Lati also smacks Loom. Sub Calm Mind Ice Beam Suicune runs through teams that use things like Poison Heal Breloom as their check. Never mind the fact that it sometimes has to switch directly into Scald on Waters which is frustrating for non Poison Heal sets.

Niche Options:


When talking about teambuilding issues, I don't see people mention the more niche Pokemon that can really help in the Breloom matchup. Talonflame and Decidueye can be good picks on Offense, Vileplume and Chesnaught have their place on bulkier squads. I think you can definitely not feel forced to use the "meta" picks all the time and feel you're sacrificing your Breloom matchup to an unhealthy amount. There's room for creativity and innovation even with the constraints Breloom places, especially compared to much more constraining things like Scizor.

Dealing With Sleep: Spore is often one of the main things that people tout as making Breloom unhealthy, and I do think there is some credence to that argument. Sleep is tricky to play around, and can often require relatively unorthodox thinking when coming from an offensive powerhouse like Breloom compared to the likes of Amoonguss. However, many of its checks are immune to Spore or can run Sleep Talk feasibly on some sets. I've seen some people view Sleep Talk being used as evidence toward's Breloom's unhealthiness, but I would argue its a natural metagame trend that started with Amoonguss and was accelerated with Breloom. It's possible my background in gen 5 makes be biased here since Sleep was much more deadly in that metagame and was viewed as something to account for in teambuilding more often. What seems like an unfair mechanic to some newer players is just a different threat to build for in my eyes, and I recognize my bias and agree that Spore is probably the most unhealthy thing about Breloom. However, it still has the inconsistency in 1 turn wakeups and many immunities to build around.

Breloom in Practice

Here I'm going to go through a couple games where Breloom was used in UUPL to hopefully explain some if its issues in real game scenarios rather than just in the abstract. I can't be bothered to write about all 27 Breloom games but the ones I picked illustrate my point pretty well

(Week 1 HT vs Pohjis)
Here you can see both the issues Breloom can have in Matchup and in practice. While Noivern is something of a niche pick for HT, you can easily imagine a Latias or Crobat in that slot and get the same feedback on what Breloom does. It can presumably get free turns by forcing out Rhyperior with Bullet Seed and Bewear / non BP locked Scizor with Spore, and with proper prediction definitely hurts both Altaria / Noivern slot with Rock Tomb. You can see the issues with it in practice though. Pohjis brings it in as HT sets up his rocks, and then has to decide whether to choose the right coverage move. Breloom often runs into scenarios where only 1 of the 3 moves it can feasibly use on a given turn will hit the switch. What I'm mainly saying here is that Breloom "50/50s" can often be 33/33/33s so to speak. He can try and Rock Tomb, Spore, or Bullet Seed. Alt takes the latter two, Scizor takes Tomb or Speed, Tenta eats Tomb. The fact that you have to hit these predictions with much more accuracy than something like a Choice Specs Primarina (where your options basically boil down to Water move or Fairy move in most matchups) adds to its inconsistency as a breaker. HT makes a good play keeping in his Alt on the second spore, leaving Pohjis unable to do much with his Breloom. Yes Pohjis could have Rock Tombed there (if he carried it, not a guarantee), but that choice opens up different counterplay in Tenta / Scizor (and also doesn't cover the Rhyperior Ice Punch.) Breloom doesn't get any free switch ins for the rest of the game until the result has mostly been decided. Even compared to Serperior, its bulk is notably worse and the secondary Fighting-type more hinders it than helps it in terms of trying to generate its own switchins.

(Week 1 Lopunny Kicks vs Lax)
In this game Breloom does break holes in Lax's team, but you have to see the insane amounts of risks Punny takes so it does that. He has to stay in on not one but two checks that would OHKO it in order to keep clicking Facade. A misprediction there loses him his main breaker and makes the matchup much more tough. He also was fortunate to get the first turn Knock Off on Gliscor, which let Breloom threaten Lax's team even more than it should have.

(Week 4 Arifeen vs BlackOblivion)
This game shows how even one Breloom check can be enough to stop it. Once BlackOblivion chooses his Spore sack, Arifeen's PHeal Breloom can't really do anything to muscle past Togekiss. Yes that Spore is valuable, but its not game ending and you can see BO stay in control with Togekiss despite having to use his sacs earlier than Arifeen did, forcing the ditto at the end which he came out on top of. Rock Tomb Breloom could have been more dangerous here, but this also highlights another of Breloom's problems. It has to sacrifice matchups in order to use all of its coverage options, and getting the wrong one neuters it heavily (this is compared to something like Buzzwole whose standard sets pressured far more of the top metagame than Breloom's did.)

TLDR (understandable i'm a giant fucking nerd)

Breloom's a classic High Risk, High Reward Pokemon. It can cause huge problems when you hit predictions or roll 5 hits with Bullet Seed / 3 Turn Spores, and runs into matchups where its risks are mitigated because your opponent has a lot of Pokemon it safely can sleep on, or threatens out with Mach Punch. Even with counters like Doublade, as seen in this Semis match between Sacri and HT, it can find ways to break through them when the counter is not provided adequate support. Despite these boons, it has been incredibly inconsistent in higher level play and is so hard to switch in safely on a large portion of the tier. Top metagame threats do require lots of support to build for, this is not a trait exclusive to Breloom. It's inconsistencies and shortcomings keep me firmly in the do not ban camp.

Looking forward to more discussion, keep it civil and bring logic to your arguments.
 
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#4
A lot of people dislike Breloom but the argument is whether it is “broken”. Taking a look at what UU has found broken in the past we find Azumarill, Buzzwole, and Scollipede. Azumarill had versatility, it could fit on pretty much all archetypes. Belly Drum could be used as a sweeper, Choice Band as a breaker, Sap Sipper as a trapper on stall and balance teams, and even creative sets like Assault Vest could be utilized perfectly on teams. Buzzwoles bulky and undeniable physical power made it a terrifying threat for UU. It’s ability to check Breloom is part of the reason why Breloom was swiftly unbanned while Buzzwole stayed BL. Scollipede used its fantastic access to Speed Boost and Swords Dance in conjunction with coverage moves like Earthquake and Aqua Tail, to break though bulky offensive Pokémon like Cobalion and Gliscor. It promptly earned its spot in BL back due to these factors.

Now looking back on this brief history of the important recent bans, ask yourself if Breloom should be banned. Is it as “broken” as Scollipede? Sage did an amazing job of identifying Breloom checks and both offensive and defensive counterplay. Breloom isn’t as fast as Scollipede, it has some set versatility but is used exclusively on offensive team archetypes. It doesn’t have the bulk or the longevity that Azumarill or Buzzwole have. Many defensive Pokémon have developed ways to defeat Breloom which makes it even less threatening. Another huge issue for Breloom is the prominence and power of Flying-types in this meta. Togekiss’ viability and usage has sharply increased since Brelooms drop and even after the rise of Rotom Wash. It is in my opinion that Breloom can be accurately checked and eliminated in most matches with simple preparation.

One point that was brought to my attention is this. Someone told me that if a Pokémon requires a designated check it is certainly broken. Looking at our tier currently there are a few Pokémon or small groups of Pokémon that need a designated check, a group of resistant Pokémon, or offensive pivots or Pokémon that pressure it. For example, a UU team cannot function with an Electric-type immunity or extensive counterplay. Volt Turn has been one of the staples of UU and frankly most tiers for a long time. This doesn’t mean Pokémon like Mega Manectric are broken. Breloom needs a designated check or counterplay just like Scizor and Mega Aerodactyl do but that doesn’t make them broken.

In conclusion, Breloom has been one of the strongest and most threatening UU Pokémon in recent months but it is not “broken”.
 
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#5
Quick question for y'all folks (just a humble small dude here that's not so active on the forums who wants to ask for an opinion and is not going to say if he wants loom back to BL since he doesn't play much UU. Oh and I'm not sure if I can ask this here but I still think I can since this is a Breloom-related thread. However, if the admins feel that they have to delete it because it's not related to the suspect test itself, feel free to erase my reply).
What do you think about fully PhysDef Gourgeist as a pretty niche/unorthodox Breloom answer?

Doesn't take that much from Bullet Seed:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 135-160 (36 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (and can Will-O-Wisp it back), immunity to both Spore and Fighting Type moves and takes absolutely nothing from Rock Tomb (252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 88-105 (23.5 - 28%) -- 91% chance to 4HKO ).

I'm not saying "EHMAHGERD JUZT USE GOURGEIST FROM LOOM OMG LOOM ISN'T BROKEN" (I'm not a Verlisify fan), I was just thinking about a kind of unorthodox and niche low-tier Pokémon that can do something against Breloom and wanted to know your oppinions about it:]
 
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#6
Breloom is good. It's absolutely a top-tier threat in the UU metagame. It has a decent amount of versatility with Poison Heal and Technician sets alike, and various moveslot options to rewrite its list of checks and counters. And it has Spore, which is a downright fantastic move that I'd easily consider broken if it was more widely available. All of these things combined make Breloom extremely difficult to face on paper, and even in practice Breloom is something that should never be forgotten when building a team, as it is very much prepared to destroy a team that isn't prepared for it in return...

...BUT...

I don't think I'd necessarily consider Breloom "broken" by any stretch of the imagination. At higher levels of play in UU its usage and success when used both tend to go down considerably compared to the likes of Scizor, Latias, Gliscor, and others. Even though Poison Heal and Technician variants are somewhat different in theory, they still tend to be dealt with by a similar crowd of threats. Mega Altaria and Celebi, for one, are getting better by the minute. These guys are by no means exclusively Breloom checks/counters, but are still among the best in the tier at checking or countering Breloom. Gliscor, one of the top-tier threats, is also a decent answer to Breloom. Latias can generally revenge kill Breloom more often than Breloom can break past Latias, and Latias, too, is a top-tier threat I'd hardly consider "broken." Tsareena has been on a tremendous rise paralleled only by the likes of Gastrodon in OU and Rhyperior in the same tier, and sponges Spore, is outright immune to Mach Punch, and resists Bullet Seed, while still serving as an extraordinarily powerful wallbreaker and a good spinner. Togekiss, too, is at arguably its best in the meta, and it tends to give Breloom a massive headache too. And as Sage mentioned in his large and comprehensive post, there are even some niche picks in this tier that deal with Breloom if you aren't fancying running a standard team.

Similarly, Breloom's only truly "consistent" threat is that of Mach Punch revenge killing things that are weak to it. Yet even things that don't appreciate being forced out by the threat of an absurdly powerful Fighting-type STAB priority move are excelling in this meta: Krookodile, Terrakion, Mega Sharpedo, Stakataka, and weakened threats like Mega Aerodactyl, Hydreigon, Serperior, any Infernape lacking Mach Punch itself, Cobalion, and Serperior, are all still picks ranging from powerful threats that require a little support to function (like Stakataka and Terrakion) to downright fantastic in the meta's current state (like the Megas I mentioned, Krookodile, Serperior, Hydreigon, Infernape, Cobalion, etc.). Everything else is a diceroll, from the length of Spore's sleep status to how many hits Bullet Seed can land. And there are, as I mentioned, things in this tier that are outright immune to Breloom's most consistently-threatening tool. The tier's Ghost-types and Tsareena are on a rise, after all.

Quick question for y'all folks (just a humble small dude here that's not so active on the forums who wants to ask for an opinion and is not going to say if he wants loom back to BL since he doesn't play much UU. Oh and I'm not sure if I can ask this here but I still think I can since this is a Breloom-related thread. However, if the admins feel that they have to delete it because it's not related to the suspect test itself, feel free to erase my reply).
What do you think about fully PhysDef Gourgeist as a pretty niche/unorthodox Breloom answer?

Doesn't take that much from Bullet Seed:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 135-160 (36 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (and can Will-O-Wisp it back), immunity to both Spore and Fighting Type moves and takes absolutely nothing from Rock Tomb (252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 135-160 (36 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO ).

I'm not saying "EHMAHGERD JUZT USE GOURGEIST FROM LOOM OMG LOOM ISN'T BROKEN" (I'm not a Verlisify fan), I was just thinking about a kind of unorthodox and niche low-tier Pokémon that can do something against Breloom and wanted to know your oppinions about it:]
That said, I'm not 100% sure if Gourgeist-S is really the Loom answer this tier would need. While I'd argue it's definitely one of its more surprising niche counters, I'd argue the opportunity cost for running it seems a bit high. That level of physical bulk investment makes it incredibly prone to being forced out by the likes of Infernape, Gengar, Chandelure, Hydreigon, and the like. It also doesn't appreciate coming in on a Swords Dance variant since all it really needs to take some massive damage is a single lucky and boosted Breloom.

Anyway, that's all I wanted to say thus far. I doubt I'll get the reqs to vote in this Suspect Test, but if I do I'm almost definitely voting to not ban Breloom. It's not my favorite thing in the world to fight, and I usually groan when I'm using a Hyper Offense team on the ladder only to see this green fuck thing on my opponent's team since I personally struggle to deal with it myself, but it's objectively not that broken, especially when compared to the past few things we've suspected. I'd argue that UU is in a pretty damn good state right now.
 
#7
Breloom is good. It's absolutely a top-tier threat in the UU metagame. It has a decent amount of versatility with Poison Heal and Technician sets alike, and various moveslot options to rewrite its list of checks and counters. And it has Spore, which is a downright fantastic move that I'd easily consider broken if it was more widely available. All of these things combined make Breloom extremely difficult to face on paper, and even in practice Breloom is something that should never be forgotten when building a team, as it is very much prepared to destroy a team that isn't prepared for it in return...

...BUT...

I don't think I'd necessarily consider Breloom "broken" by any stretch of the imagination. At higher levels of play in UU its usage and success when used both tend to go down considerably compared to the likes of Scizor, Latias, Gliscor, and others. Even though Poison Heal and Technician variants are somewhat different in theory, they still tend to be dealt with by a similar crowd of threats. Mega Altaria and Celebi, for one, are getting better by the minute. These guys are by no means exclusively Breloom checks/counters, but are still among the best in the tier at checking or countering Breloom. Gliscor, one of the top-tier threats, is also a decent answer to Breloom. Latias can generally revenge kill Breloom more often than Breloom can break past Latias, and Latias, too, is a top-tier threat I'd hardly consider "broken." Tsareena has been on a tremendous rise paralleled only by the likes of Gastrodon in OU and Rhyperior in the same tier, and sponges Spore, is outright immune to Mach Punch, and resists Bullet Seed, while still serving as an extraordinarily powerful wallbreaker and a good spinner. Togekiss, too, is at arguably its best in the meta, and it tends to give Breloom a massive headache too. And as Sage mentioned in his large and comprehensive post, there are even some niche picks in this tier that deal with Breloom if you aren't fancying running a standard team.

Similarly, Breloom's only truly "consistent" threat is that of Mach Punch revenge killing things that are weak to it. Yet even things that don't appreciate being forced out by the threat of an absurdly powerful Fighting-type STAB priority move are excelling in this meta: Krookodile, Terrakion, Mega Sharpedo, Stakataka, and weakened threats like Mega Aerodactyl, Hydreigon, Serperior, any Infernape lacking Mach Punch itself, Cobalion, and Serperior, are all still picks ranging from powerful threats that require a little support to function (like Stakataka and Terrakion) to downright fantastic in the meta's current state (like the Megas I mentioned, Krookodile, Serperior, Hydreigon, Infernape, Cobalion, etc.). Everything else is a diceroll, from the length of Spore's sleep status to how many hits Bullet Seed can land. And there are, as I mentioned, things in this tier that are outright immune to Breloom's most consistently-threatening tool. The tier's Ghost-types and Tsareena are on a rise, after all.



That said, I'm not 100% sure if Gourgeist-S is really the Loom answer this tier would need. While I'd argue it's definitely one of its more surprising niche counters, I'd argue the opportunity cost for running it seems a bit high. That level of physical bulk investment makes it incredibly prone to being forced out by the likes of Infernape, Gengar, Chandelure, Hydreigon, and the like. It also doesn't appreciate coming in on a Swords Dance variant since all it really needs to take some massive damage is a single lucky and boosted Breloom.

Anyway, that's all I wanted to say thus far. I doubt I'll get the reqs to vote in this Suspect Test, but if I do I'm almost definitely voting to not ban Breloom. It's not my favorite thing in the world to fight, and I usually groan when I'm using a Hyper Offense team on the ladder only to see this green fuck thing on my opponent's team since I personally struggle to deal with it myself, but it's objectively not that broken, especially when compared to the past few things we've suspected. I'd argue that UU is in a pretty damn good state right now.
Your points are really good tho. However, I am not so sure if SD Breloom can punish Gourgeist that much though.
Sure thing Breloom can SD on the Gourgeist switch, but this fat pumpkin still can take some hits dished out by Breloom:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 177-208 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 275-320 (73.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If Loom gets x4 then, of course, Gourgeist will die. However, since it can take any hit from a x2 Breloom (unless it crits of course), you can burn it back with Will-O-Wisp and well... Breloom can be stopped (I think. If any UU player with experience wants to tell me that I'm wrong then please be my guest as long as you be respecful).

On the other side, I personally think that Poison Heal Breloom can't deal much damage to Gourgeist
+6 244 Atk Breloom Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 162-192 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO (that's an easy Synthesis I think)
(Quick sidenote on this calc: This Poison Heal loom set I took if from the 6th Gen strategy Dex, since all of the USUM sets are Technician. Thus, I don't know what Poison Heal Breloom runs nowadays).

Nonetheless, as you stated, I do understand that the fact of running a Gourgeist on your team is risky because if your oponent doesn't have loom, you kinda have 5 and a half Pokémon instead of 6. However, just found funny that this forgotten PU Pokémon can be a decent Breloom answer:]
 

Merritt

"the other dude"
is a Community Contributor
#9

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#10
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...te-for-april-2018.3632386/page-6#post-7810139

It doesn’t relate to Breloom but we got stats yesterday and while nothing changed for UU apart from we can’t use Gastrodon anymore, it’s interesting to note Mamoswine, Diancie and Amoonguss usage. I’m no stats boff but from those numbers you would imagine that we will almost certainly be getting Mamoswine next month, while Diancie and Amoonguss will require another low month of usage due to how the weighting works. Gliscor would also rise given another month of high usage. (If you know the system feel free to call me out on that if it’s wrong)

On Breloom I want to stress that I don’t think the Pokemon individually is broken, but I do have to wonder whether it detracts more from the tier than it actually gives back because ultimately you have a hard to fit offensive pokemon that places a pretty unique set of demands on teambuilding which could be contributing to making building pretty repetitive / stale. I’ll probably form a more concrete opinion over the next few days.
 
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#11
Freeroamer pretty much put what I’ve felt into words here. I’ve been back and forth on if Breloom is broken, but I’ve consistently said that something doesn’t exactly need to be broken to be unhealthy. The thing is yet another thing to prepare for in a tier full of threats that make teambuilding feel awfully stale for me just trying to fit something to prepare for everything.

While it might not be broken outright, it certainly is adding to my dislike of the meta and how annoying it is to try and build in it, and I’ll probably make a reqs run to vote ban.

Also a quick edit: yet again the time comes where I remind people that something doesn’t need to be broken to be unhealthy for the meta. That’s all.

bring back keldeo meta
 
#12
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-758224243

Turns 9-13 for Breloom breaking past so called defensive answers with no prior damage.

Does this replay refute the argument that Breloom has "consistent defensive answers" a la Sage? Well refute is too strong a word, but it obviously provides evidence against it. The fact of the matter is, Breloom's damage output and Spore rolls are too variable for me to allow in the metagame. While this isn't broken in itself, the fact that it can be a near perfect stallbreaker with Poison Heal + Swords Dance, a useful tool against all playstyles with Mach Punch and still have so many extra cheesey tools (Natural Gift, Focus Punch) means it's too cheesey for me. Are there other Pokemon that are similarly strong and cheesey, especially with Z moves? Yep, I agree with that argument, ban Latias and Scizor too please. And Regenerator.

Of course there are other arguments, which are primarily outlined in Sage's post. They might convince you and frankly I don't like arguing and I think you should vote whatever you want to regardless of us elitists posting here. But just to briefly address the whole questionable utility in UUPL thing:
  1. UUPL is a tiny sample with people trying to prepare for specific people
  2. Loom just scored a big win https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-381406
  3. Loom has extremely high power, a game from last week https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-380254
  4. Loom user loses in a week 4 game, but still does work, does win percentage really matter? https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-378229
Idk what to say, obviously I can choose games where Breloom does near broken / broken things. There are games where it doesn't do too much, although basically no good game where it does nothing. That's part of why it's broken. It has such an asymetrical stat distribution, relies very much on matchups (CB is amazing versus many Ghostless teams for example), and has incredible power to always back it up. Therefore, I would vote ban if I didn't think Smogon was corrupt and elitist anyways.
 
#13
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...te-for-april-2018.3632386/page-6#post-7810139

It doesn’t relate to Breloom but we got stats yesterday and while nothing changed for UU apart from we can’t use Gastrodon anymore,
I just figured I would correct this part specifically: Smogon is no longer doing quick rises. If we were, then Gastrodon would rise, but since we’re not, it won’t for another month. I don’t think many people are using Gastrodon teams, but it’s worth noting for those who are for whatever reason.
 
#14
I just got reqs so I figured I'd share my thoughts and why I'll be voting ban. But first, I think any argument involving its UUPL winrate should not be considered for the reasons pif pointed out. The sample size is simply too small (if high school stats taught me anything, 22 is certainly not sufficient), and there are games where Breloom puts in work yet loses. Anyway, here are my arguments:

  1. Spore is a stupid move for something as offensive as Breloom to have. For this reason, there is rarely a game where it is deadweight (unless the opponent has a defensive Celebi or Vileplume). Any so-called "check" to it cannot hard switch into it fearing the Spore, so you're forced to guess if Breloom will attack or Spore. This is unlike other 50/50s since even if you guess right, you still have a sleeping Pokemon and are essentially playing 6v5 now.

    https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-378229
    Here is an example of trying to "adapt" by running Sleep Talk Latias. It gets put to sleep by Breloom turn 3, then immediately Pursuit trapped by Scizor. Maybe Indigo Ruins should have sacked something else to sleep, but nothing could take both Spore, Bullet Seed, or Superpower. Breloom goes on to Spore and kill Mantine, chip Scizor into Cobalion's range, but a crit ends up making Breloom's team lose.

    https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-377737
    Breloom vs Celebi, Chandelure, and Togekiss means it is not dealing any significant damage, but Spore still renders Togekiss useless the entire game, and Breloom later lures in Celebi to be Pursuit trapped by Mega Aerodactyl.

  2. Its Poison Heal set adds another layer of depth to it, giving it a phenomenal match up against anything bulky. If you want to run anything bulky your ability to beat Breloom depends on whether or not its the Breloom set that breaks through the "checks" you selected. Some replays showcasing this set:

    https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-753772488
    Breloom muscles past Sylveon with Spore + SD + Facade. Sage is then forced to sack Mantine to sleep to have a chance at bringing it back with Mega Aggron. Breloom was directly involved with two kills and lived throughout the entire match.

    https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-367132
    This is actually a replay Sage posted as evidence towards no ban, which confused me since Breloom single handedly wins the game for Lopunny Kicks. I don't see how taking a risk is evidence towards how balanced it is, especially since the only risk taken was predicting the double switch on turn 14 with Latias in on Breloom. Staying in on Sylveon isn't that bad considering it had to heal and was not likely to attack. If anything, it shows how Lax needed to guess every play correctly to avoid being swept by Breloom. Notice how even with solid checks in Gliscor, Latias, and Sylveon, Breloom still puts in work.

  3. Mach Punch means, even against offense, it will find turns to come in and immediately put the opponent on the back pedal. As mentioned before, attack vs Spore 50/50s are more threatening and unhealthy to deal with than guessing which STAB Primarina will click or Pursuit vs Knock Off from Krookodile.

  4. Breloom may not be overpowered in the same way Scizor/Latias are, but its counterplay involves too much RNG to be considered healthy. Praying for early sleep wake ups or low Bullet Seed rolls is something I do not believe is good for the tier. This argument isn't the strongest but it is something I consider when voting.
That's all I got. Breloom obviously is not some perfect Pokemon shredding any team, but what it brings to the tier is outweighed by its negatives, so I will be voting ban when the time comes.
 
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#16
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-760777056

I used Breloom and had some graphical glitches^

Also, Breloom is really weak, I don't understand why people think it's OP.
If you think it’s weak, then you’re definitely not using it to it’s full potential. We’re literally suspecting it because it is enough of a pain in the ass to warrant one. It has enough power to blow past normal checks with a single lucky turn, the ability to outright remove things from play while forcing a guessing game due to the sheer power it holds and a perfectly accurate sleep move, and the movepool to catch things that should check it off-guard. It getting on the field safely has a tendency to immediately shift momentum in its favor due to the aforementioned. It also has a Stab Priority move that hits much harder than comparable priority, and is honestly on a level where it could compare to some fighting type’s normal attacks.

I fail to see how you can consider it weak by any standards. It’s sure a damn sight better then Leafeon.
 
#17
If you think it’s weak, then you’re definitely not using it to it’s full potential. We’re literally suspecting it because it is enough of a pain in the ass to warrant one. It has enough power to blow past normal checks with a single lucky turn, the ability to outright remove things from play while forcing a guessing game due to the sheer power it holds and a perfectly accurate sleep move, and the movepool to catch things that should check it off-guard. It getting on the field safely has a tendency to immediately shift momentum in its favor due to the aforementioned. It also has a Stab Priority move that hits much harder than comparable priority, and is honestly on a level where it could compare to some fighting type’s normal attacks.

I fail to see how you can consider it weak by any standards. It’s sure a damn sight better then Leafeon.
It's really fragile and not very straight-forward to use in my opinion right now, but I will try to see how to use Breloom properly and how overpowered it can be.
 
#18
I'll be getting on the suspect ladder sometime this week when I have some time. I've been a proponent of banning loom since it was unbanned and felt then as I do now that it has no place in this tier. The problem with breloom isn't 1 or 2 things. It's a combination of a bunch of things that make it, in my opinion, broke. Pif and adaam already made the points I wanted to bring. The one thing I wanted to add is the fact that even if you scout breloom, you have a pokemon that's asleep and it's a 6v5. If you guess wrong, a Mon is going to take a good amount of damage. I wouldn't call this a 5050. The breloom user wins out no matter what you predict. Even if your opponent is not carrying spore, just the threat of it will make you play around it. While I understand the "build around sleep" building mentality, I disagree with it. Breloom's combination of sheer power, spore, abilities(toxic heal is an incredible ability that gives it sustainability even with its mediocre bulk), priority boosted by an ability and good typing for handling bulky teams(grass typing is great in a tier littered with fat waters) make it too much for this tier.

I for one will be voting BAN. I hope you will too.
 

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
#19
echoing pif here. breloom has multiple highly viable sets that, while "cheesy" do legitimate work in the metagame and are legitimate threats. while it has plenty of checks in the metagame, its "hard counters" are few and far between. It's not acceptable for the "counters" of a pokemon to be dependent on two layers of RNG -- sleep turns, and bullet seed hits. Simply put, loom often carries no personal burden of prediction (in many cases, you can just click spore, or just click bullet seed, or just click mach punch, etc) and requires heavy outplaying at every turn in response.

also it's just not fun to play against 80% of the time and as far as I'm concerned that deserves the hammer

on that note, I think it's important not to be over-reliant on things like "win rate" or "high level win rate" when we talk about banning a pokemon. It's perfectly acceptable to acknowledge that a suspect might not be "the most broken thing in the tier" and still want it to be banned. public voting gives you the power to shape the tier the way you want to see it, and ultimately it's already been determined that breloom could go either way.

im banning, that is, if i can stop fucking around with memes and actually get reqs.
 
#20
I feel like people actually don't understand why some players are pro-ban against Breloom.

A Pokemon doesn't need to be broken to be unhealthy and Breloom is a really good example in that case. Of course it's kinda slow and doesn't have a real defensive utility (which is not entirely true especially the Toxic Orb set which can come on the majority of Scald users) but it puts so much pressure on the UU metagame which doesn't make sense.

I'm tired of people which said that "Sleep Talk" is normal to deal with Breloom because unlike Fire Coverage for Scizor or Ice Coverage for Gliscor which provides you an attack 100% of the time, it's not the case for Sleep Talk. Unless you run Sleep Talk + 1 Attack, you basically have 1-2/3 to get the right move when your Pokemon is asleep and you click Sleep Talk. That means that you're not even sure to get the right move.

As Adaam said, Spore is freaking dumb on an offensive Pokemon. It's such a low risk high reward to click Spore.

Sage made a great post but I kinda disagree with it. Celebi is good vs Breloom but if we look at the recent uses (last month), we can see that Breloom is often paired with some Pursuit user, especially Muk-A which 100% deals with Celebi. It means that you can't just send your Celebi on Breloom because Muk-A is in the back and if your oppo make a double and trap your Celebi then you're screwed and Breloom will be a pain in the ass. Doublade doesn't have any recovery and can't come on Spore which means you need Doublade + a Sleep Fodder. That basically invalidate one-third of your team just to deal with one Pokemon : Breloom !

If we look at the replays that Sage shared we can see that most of the team Breloom faced got 2 or 3 answers just to deal with it.

First Replay : There is a Roost Noivern, an Altaria-Mega and a fast Tentacruel with Sludge Bomb.
Second Replay : There is a Gliscor, a Scarf Latias and a Starmie (which can RK Breloom).
Third Replay : There is only a Togekiss but BlackOblivion need to sacrifice a Pokemon to Spore before.

Obviously, if your team is a pure counter to Breloom it makes sense that it's Winrate will sucks. That can be the same case for every Pokemon that we banned before but they are now UUBL and not UU anymore like Breloom, it should be the same thing.

In my opinion Breloom put to much pressure on the teambuilding in Underused and should definitively get banned once for all.
Whatever set it runs, it's always great (Sash w/ Spore + 3 Attack ; LO SD Spore, Z-Superpower/Focus Punch, Toxic Orb w/ Poison Heal ad Façade..).
 
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#21
my opinion of breloom is no ban. The reason why is that it has plethora of checks and counter in the tier. It can only setup on the pokemon is forces out otherwise because of its frailness it take a bunch of damage from resisted and neutral attacks. while it can run rock tomb to by pass some checks such as crobat, togekiss, and moltres. while it can spore some of it checks and counter initially some are immune or can heal it off with their ability such as natural cure or can adapt by running sleep talk. It often falls short against faster team because of it speed tier and may opt to use sash to mitigate this but often lack the wallbreaking power of life orb. bulkier teams and stall often pack checks to breloom as well. breloom is not unhealthy for the metagame because it has a variety of reliable and viable checks in the current meta.
 
#22
i really like sage's post. super in-depth, comprehensive, and visually appealing too. well done homie.

however, i honestly just really dislike breloom and its effect on the meta. it says a lot about the impact of a mon when you legitimately can't make good balance builds because of how much one pokemon's influence on the metagame constrains building.

i'm gonna lay out why i think you should vote ban, and the first aspect of why i think loom should be banned ties into sage's description of counters. when one considers a counter, one considers a blanket check, a free switch-in. the fact remains that techiloom is so overtly powerful and versatile that its so-called 'counters' are easily chipped, put to sleep, or in a large majority of cases, ohkoed or 2hkoed by breloom and its coverage moves. doublade is honestly the only pokemon i consider an actual 'counter', and even then it's put to sleep and subsequently used as free initiative.

take, for example, sage's first row of 'consistent defensive answers,' composed of celebi, doublade, m-altaria, and gliscor. my problems with defining glisc and celebi as hard counters ties into the viablity of the sets that sage is describing. defensive celebi is incredibly niche (iirc zero uupl usage) and physically defensive gliscor only finds a viable role on stall. similarly, offensive celebi, i set i've used on one of my favorite teams, takes a boatload from bullet seed:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 172-204 (50.4 - 59.8%)
and can even be ohkoed after rocks and mach punch, depending on BP rolls.

continuing, m-altaria, another 'consistent defensive answer' is OHKOed by rock tomb when not mega evolved,
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 307-361 (101.9 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and faces the same relative frailty when absorbing bullet seeds
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 156-188 (53.6 - 64.6%)

now, breloom not having good switch-ins isn't enough of an argument for why it should be banned. for example, heracross and primarina have very few real switch-ins, with heracross arguably having zero. despite being a-/a rank mons, they're not being called for suspect tests. the reason for this is simple: they're both slow and can be easily revenged. but wait, loom also has a low speed tier, so what's the problem? the problem is that technician boosted LO mach punch is so ridiculously strong that it's next to impossible to revenge after loom hits +2, with next to no mons outside of the 'counter' designation outspeeding and living +2 mach. this naturally constrains building, as you're almost required to have at least one of the aforementioned loom counters when building. if not, you risk having your counter being put to sleep, ohkoed, or chipped to where they won't be able to survive a +2 mach, and then being subsequently swept by loom.

i dont think this is healthy, and i frankly don't like how one-dimensional and offense-oriented the meta's become as a result of amoonguss leaving. obviously breloom leaving wouldn't rectify all the potential problems found in uu, but i think banning a mon that the majority of people would concede to being unhealthy will do nothing but benefit the tier.

i doubt anyone would sincerely say that the meta would get worse were loom to leave, but i can find a multitude of people who would argue the inverse.

everything else has been said by pif, adaam, ed, and moute

voting ban
 
#23
Just got reqs so here's my quick two cents.

Yifeng said:
I have 2 regrets in life thus far: not investing in cryptocurrency 5 years ago, and voting unban on Breloom on the previous suspect test.
It's been almost half a year since the initial Breloom suspect and after many changes to the tier, I still stand by what I said. Having lost its two most prominent counters - Sap Sipper Azu and Amoonguss, Breloom is at its prime right now.

Breloom is ubiquitous in terms of utility, it's literally good against any playstyle with any of its sets, and I say this with no exaggeration. Counterplay is extremely limited and RNG based when you're switching something out vs Breloom. If you're having to run dumb shit like Safety Goggle Crobat/Togekiss/Scizor, especially when all of the aforementioned have far superior options for items, then it's obviously detrimental to the tier. Mach Punch guarantees that it will be useful in some way against offensive builds. Poison Heals adds another level of complexity when building against Breloom as it can bypass many of its conventional checks and counters. Scouting for the set will most likely leave one of your mons dead/asleep.

Technician Bullet Seed is a fucking stupid move, resistances mean nothing when you get hit with a (potentially) 187.5BP move. Bullet Seed averages 3 hits, even then, that's 112.5BP, with perfect accuracy and no drawbacks. I've been only using the CB set (because Spore is a gay move), and it OHKOs the likes of Latias and Chandy. I honestly think Bullet Seed is the one thing that pushes Breloom to broken status.

So now, I will undo my past mistake and will be voting ban.
 
#24
My notes about Breloom.

• Technician-Bullet Seed is strong af. My favourite example is the capability to OHKO Latias with 5 hits + Mach Punch or the fair chance to B-Seed OHKO an incomming Chandelure.
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 235-280 (77.8 - 92.7%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 77-90 (25.4 - 29.8%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 188-224 (72 - 85.8%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Spore forces us to use Safety Googles or Sleeptalk to deny a follow-up Swords Dance. Gras-types also do the job, but Celebi is trapped by A-Muk and Serp takes a shit-ton from Mach Punch. Chesnaught, Deciduey, Tsareena or Vileplume have a good Matchup too, but imo only Deciduey can be more then "just" a Breloom check.

Rock Tomb demolishes all Flying-Type answer for Breloom + Sleep Talk-Chandelure and other niche pics.

• While LO-Technician might be its best set, 'loom can also run Focus Sash or Toxic Orb to some good results.

Conclusion: Breloom has very few true counters in UU. B-Seed and Spore add a huge RNG-factor to the game. I'll vote 4 BAN most likely.

- - -

Special thanks to Mengy and Jesse wich both 6-0ed me on game 38 and 39 and forced me to play 8 more games to get Reqs ^^.
 
#25
Got reqs, shoutout to King UU for introducing me Choice Band Breloom which is a another brainless set of Breloom.

I also would like to pick up on what CantoakaChris said in the post above because RNG-Factor is a real thing on Breloom and that can turn Breloom's check to the void. I notified this especially on Choice Band Breloom as you can see on your own :

• 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 270-325 (89.4 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 162-195 (53.6 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

• 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 230-270 (79 - 92.7%) -- approx. 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 148-175 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

• 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 216-260 (82.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 270-325 (103.4 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

• 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 225-267 (85.8 - 101.9%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

• 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 80 Def Togekiss: 240-285 (64.3 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 80 Def Togekiss: 310-366 (83.1 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

• 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Celebi: 210-245 (51.9 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

etc...

Of course, Breloom isn't going to get 5 hits every time it uses Bullet Seed but you need to consider this RNG-Factor everytime you send one for your "check" on Breloom because that can be a 2 hits Bullet Seed but also a 5 hits one and even a double 5 hits !

Breloom is good vs almost any playstyle because Mach Punch can be a pain for offense and Bullet Seed / Mach Punch / Rock Tomb erase Stalls..

• A little exemple of how a well played Breloom is vs Stall : tryhard jesse vs. Frontier Moute (even if there is a Crobat, a fast Tentacruel with Sludge Bomb and Aggron-Mega which can be an answer vs some Breloom's set like Toxic Orb Façade, Breloom put some massive pressure on the team)

Btw if some people want to test the team I used to get my reqs, feel free to try it !


Choice Band Breloom Spikes Offense

Choice Band Breloom is an insanely good Wallbreaker that paired pretty well with SD Iron Plate Scizor.
Z-Ice Punch Swampert is an efficient lure which can nuke Latias, Serperior or Breloom on the SI. Tentacruel helps me vs opponent's Breloom while providing some Hazard Control. Latias Scarf is a really good Pokemon in Late Game because the core Loom/Zor tears apart defensive's cores. Healing Wish is also a really good move which can provide some really good support. Finnaly, Klefki is my Dragon Resist and bring some chip damages with Spikes + Toxic.
 
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