np: USUM UU Stage 7.1 - Controversy (Breloom banned from UU)

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eaglehawk

I COULD BE BANNED!
And how about people like you stop trying to derail or avoid the discussion? This isn't your typical topic someone brought up out of nowhere to trigger people for the shits and giggles, this is an issue which has been discussed and has been shrouded in controversy for a solid year. pokeisfun and I have already explained that not suspecting because of UU Open is a flimsy excuse at best. If not just UU, but ANY tier leadership held off on suspects and tiering decisions just for tournaments, the collective suspect count for the entirety of the main Smogon tiers from the beginning of SM would be like, 2 or 3 and all the tiers would be unplayable messes because nothing was able to be suspected solely because people were afraid of disturbing the tournament scene. Besides, anyone who's competent enough to play in the Open surely can build some new teams in the advent of a Scizor ban.

Now, we obviously don't have to do one suspect after the other in a non-stop marathon (we haven't reached quite the extreme level of centralization that PU had before they banned Archeops and Magmortar), but in the meantime while we wait for the metagame to settle, what's the big deal in just discussing? Discussions and argumentations on the topic are fun, and they'll allow the entire playerbase at large to be more prepared when the suspect finally DOES come.
Daisies has a point since we're making extremely hasty judgements and spurring a discussion in a direction that isn't necessary at the time (even using gimmicks like Fury Cutter to justify broken-ness), causing a mild bandwagon effect. Also, this is pif we're talking about. As good of a player he is, he hasn't been on the mark per se with his perceptions of what needs to be banned (i.e. U-Turn/Volt Switch, Scald, Lucario, Hydreigon, etc.). Take whatever pif suggests with a grain of salt.
 
your posts really lose meaning when they devolve to insults at people for sharing a differing opinion

so this isn't a one liner: Scizor doesn't need a test. people need to stop correlating top of the tier for the entire gen with being an overbearing force. the only person that has really offered much insight outside of that was pif and I wish more of y'all would offer more than just "it's been top tier forever suspect please"
I wasn't trying to insult daisy, but ok w/e, changed the first part to be less abrasive I guess?

I mean that logic would be sound for something like Lando-T, but the problem is that multiple high level players besides pif have given reasons for suspecting Scizor, a lot of those reasons are damn good.
 

eaglehawk

I COULD BE BANNED!
I wasn't trying to insult daisy, but ok w/e, changed the first part to be less abrasive I guess?

I mean that logic would be sound for something like Lando-T, but the problem is that multiple high level players besides pif have given reasons for suspecting Scizor, and many have good reasons for wanting it gone.
It's interesting to see that you've become the de facto spokesperson for the high-level players.
 
And how about people like you stop trying to derail or avoid the discussion? This isn't your typical topic someone brought up out of nowhere to trigger people for the shits and giggles, this is an issue which has been discussed and has been shrouded in controversy for a solid year. pokeisfun and I have already explained that not suspecting because of UU Open is a flimsy excuse at best. If not just UU, but ANY tier leadership held off on suspects and tiering decisions just for tournaments, the collective suspect count for the entirety of the main Smogon tiers from the beginning of SM would be like, 2 or 3 and all the tiers would be unplayable messes because nothing was able to be suspected solely because people were afraid of disturbing the tournament scene. Besides, anyone who's competent enough to play in the Open surely can build some new teams in the advent of a Scizor ban.

Now, we obviously don't have to do one suspect after the other in a non-stop marathon (we haven't reached quite the extreme level of centralization that PU had before they banned Archeops and Magmortar), but in the meantime while we wait for the metagame to settle, what's the big deal in just discussing? Discussions and argumentations on the topic are fun, and they'll allow the entire playerbase at large to be more prepared when the suspect finally DOES come.
Hiya

Historically, metagames are given an opportunity, be it a week or two, to settle before new suspect tests are proposed. Considering there's a tier shift in about 8-10 days AND signups for a major tournament starting on Monday (the actual UU Open won't start until at least 10 days after signups open), making a hasty decision on literally the most commonly used Pokemon in the tier is straight up poor policy. You view the UU Open as a "flimsy excuse" for delaying the test, and I wholeheartedly disagree with that point. Metagames reserved for official tournaments should expect some degree of stability. We just saw Breloom overwhelmingly banned and odds are we're looking at Gliscor rising from UU with Mamoswine dropping to UU. Again, decisions based on the current state of the metagame take at least a week or two to be fully developed. Realistically, the earliest we should be seeing a test would be around the end of the 2nd round of UU Open. Certain decisions, like quickbanning Mamoswine then revisiting its place in the UU metagame, may even occur before a Scizor suspect test.

Centralization is no argument for a Pokemon being inherently broken: if this were the case, Landorus-T would have been ejected from OU already, and Ubers' claim at tier legitimacy in ORAS wouldn't have be taken seriously without a Primal Groudon ban. Effective Pokemon tend to be used more than those aren't, and Scizor is no exception to this role: it's a fantastic sweeper, wallbreaker, and utility Pokemon that can maintain momentum. To suggest that its >40% usage is problematic and warranting of a suspect test is ungrounded.

For what it's worth, I do think Scizor is unhealthy for the metagame, but I wouldn't personally push for a suspect test right now. Discussion to the point, while warranted, is detracting from commentary about the current state of a post-Breloom metagame. Plenty of Pokemon are going to see drastic changes in usage, viability, and utility with Breloom gone, and for the time being focus should be put on them. Give the metagame a chance to rebound and stabilize a bit. As critical as I've been of the council in the past, they know what they're doing and don't actually prevent Pokemon from being suspected because they're too lazy to build new teams. Have faith in the process.
 

Rabia

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I wasn't trying to insult daisy, but ok w/e, changed the first part to be less abrasive I guess?

I mean that logic would be sound for something like Lando-T, but the problem is that multiple high level players besides pif have given reasons for suspecting Scizor, a lot of those reasons are damn good.
would love to see some of those "high level players besides pif" stating those reasons in the np stage 7.1 thread then. also stating "that logic would be sound for something like Lando-T", but not saying why it doesn't apply to Scizor for the sole reason people want a Scizor test doesn't really prove a point; I've seen people want a Lando-T test in OU. it's to be expected for mons that have been top tier for so long
 

explodingdaisies

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Hiya

Historically, metagames are given an opportunity, be it a week or two, to settle before new suspect tests are proposed. Considering there's a tier shift in about 8-10 days AND signups for a major tournament starting on Monday (the actual UU Open won't start until at least 10 days after signups open), making a hasty decision on literally the most commonly used Pokemon in the tier is straight up poor policy. You view the UU Open as a "flimsy excuse" for delaying the test, and I wholeheartedly disagree with that point. Metagames reserved for official tournaments should expect some degree of stability. We just saw Breloom overwhelmingly banned and odds are we're looking at Gliscor rising from UU with Mamoswine dropping to UU. Again, decisions based on the current state of the metagame take at least a week or two to be fully developed. Realistically, the earliest we should be seeing a test would be around the end of the 2nd round of UU Open. Certain decisions, like quickbanning Mamoswine then revisiting its place in the UU metagame, may even occur before a Scizor suspect test.

Centralization is no argument for a Pokemon being inherently broken: if this were the case, Landorus-T would have been ejected from OU already, and Ubers' claim at tier legitimacy in ORAS wouldn't have be taken seriously without a Primal Groudon ban. Effective Pokemon tend to be used more than those aren't, and Scizor is no exception to this role: it's a fantastic sweeper, wallbreaker, and utility Pokemon that can maintain momentum. To suggest that its >40% usage is problematic and warranting of a suspect test is ungrounded.

For what it's worth, I do think Scizor is unhealthy for the metagame, but I wouldn't personally push for a suspect test right now. Discussion to the point, while warranted, is detracting from commentary about the current state of a post-Breloom metagame. Plenty of Pokemon are going to see drastic changes in usage, viability, and utility with Breloom gone, and for the time being focus should be put on them. Give the metagame a chance to rebound and stabilize a bit. As critical as I've been of the council in the past, they know what they're doing and don't actually prevent Pokemon from being suspected because they're too lazy to build new teams. Have faith in the process.
Man I completely forgot about the shifts. That's another reason to not have a suspect. Gliscor looks to be going and it looks like we're going to be getting a slew of monsters in the tier, mega Diancie, mamo etc. Let's all just dial it back a bit
 
Hiya

Historically, metagames are given an opportunity, be it a week or two, to settle before new suspect tests are proposed. Considering there's a tier shift in about 8-10 days AND signups for a major tournament starting on Monday (the actual UU Open won't start until at least 10 days after signups open), making a hasty decision on literally the most commonly used Pokemon in the tier is straight up poor policy. You view the UU Open as a "flimsy excuse" for delaying the test, and I wholeheartedly disagree with that point. Metagames reserved for official tournaments should expect some degree of stability. We just saw Breloom overwhelmingly banned and odds are we're looking at Gliscor rising from UU with Mamoswine dropping to UU. Again, decisions based on the current state of the metagame take at least a week or two to be fully developed. Realistically, the earliest we should be seeing a test would be around the end of the 2nd round of UU Open. Certain decisions, like quickbanning Mamoswine then revisiting its place in the UU metagame, may even occur before a Scizor suspect test.

Centralization is no argument for a Pokemon being inherently broken: if this were the case, Landorus-T would have been ejected from OU already, and Ubers' claim at tier legitimacy in ORAS wouldn't have be taken seriously without a Primal Groudon ban. Effective Pokemon tend to be used more than those aren't, and Scizor is no exception to this role: it's a fantastic sweeper, wallbreaker, and utility Pokemon that can maintain momentum. To suggest that its >40% usage is problematic and warranting of a suspect test is ungrounded.

For what it's worth, I do think Scizor is unhealthy for the metagame, but I wouldn't personally push for a suspect test right now. Discussion to the point, while warranted, is detracting from commentary about the current state of a post-Breloom metagame. Plenty of Pokemon are going to see drastic changes in usage, viability, and utility with Breloom gone, and for the time being focus should be put on them. Give the metagame a chance to rebound and stabilize a bit. As critical as I've been of the council in the past, they know what they're doing and don't actually prevent Pokemon from being suspected because they're too lazy to build new teams. Have faith in the process.
Thank you for the info! While I have said many times that usage is not the sole reason to ban or suspect Scizor, your explanation into the tournament cycle still makes sense, and I definitely agree that we should wait another few weeks.

Daisies has a point since we're making extremely hasty judgements and spurring a discussion in a direction that isn't necessary at the time (even using gimmicks like Fury Cutter to justify broken-ness), causing a mild bandwagon effect. Also, this is pif we're talking about. As good of a player he is, he hasn't been on the mark per se with his perceptions of what needs to be banned (i.e. U-Turn/Volt Switch, Scald, Lucario, Hydreigon, etc.). Take whatever pif suggests with a grain of salt.
Wow, I wasn't even aware of that! Haha, I'll make sure to keep a closer eye on pif's suggestions then, even if I do think they make sense.

Well, I'm done with my little Scizor tirade for now. Have fun discussing the post-loom meta, and look forward to some of those upcoming shifts and the UU Open! also please quickban mega diancie ok thanks
 

Moutemoute

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Also Yung Dramps, I would like to highlight the fact that last night (well that was night for my GMT +2), there was a huge discussion on the UU chatbox on PS and some well known players rested the fact that suspecting Scizor would not be a good thing atm.
Tbh the thread kinda peters out and as pointed out it Mazz, we're already going to have some big changes (Gliscor may rise next month and we might get some Pokemon like Mamoswine, Venusaur-Mega, Diancie-Mega, Amoonguss and even Bisharp which is going to impact UU).
Wait n see ! o/
 

pokeisfun

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Another proposed solution for the Scizor discussion:

1) No suspect test until after UU Open or until tier leaders are certain removing Scizor won't be too destablizing
2) After the tournament, UU council considers whether to have a suspect test and they list out their reasons for us all to discuss
3) We have the test (or not)

I would like for our leaders to respond to this post and the recent posts in general when they can!

(Also we were promised a Manaphy test ages ago but never got it...granted I'm not complaining because I think it's obviously broken but still...this is why I want a promise to be made in the thread!)


I, and many others, have wanted a Scizor test for many months or a year now. Many others, obviously, do not, for very justifiable reasons. I am sorry I derailed the conversation by talking about obscure sets in the first post. I hope we can take each other seriously, at face value, and respectfully, for not just the remainder of the thread or in tiering, but as an online gaming community.
 
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No. As I have already explained in pain-staking detail, we have already had too many delays, and if we keep having to delay this hugely important suspect everytime a major tournament or tier shift comes, it'll never come, simple as that. Suspecting Scizor now is a risk, yes, but it is a risk that needs to be taken, UU has already stagnated under this Pokemon's iron boot (heh) for far too long. Now is not the time for fear or nervousness. Now is the time for action.

Take a look at these, these are the potential rises and drops for the tiers based on last month's stats credit goes to MaahirMomtaz12


So what's likely to happen in July?

-Two Pokemon will come back, which really doesn't count as a change since they were both already major presences in the tier before and nothing has changed in UU in the meantime to really affect their viability. By the way, neither of these Pokemon have ever been recognized as good Scizor checks, especially not Mamoswine.

-One new Pokemon will enter the tier, being Mega Diancie. It's yet ANOTHER thing Scizor takes advantage of, and it'll probably be quickbanned anyway (if it is allowed or suspected and allowed with the major justification being Scizor I will actually break something)

-Gliscor will likely leave. Gliscor was one of the few things that could sorta check Scizor, and it's loss, among many other things, will cause teams to lose a Scizor check.

So from what we can gather, Scizor could actually get marginally BETTER this shift, but truth be told, the shift won't even change that much aside from Gliscor being gone, and even then, I don't think we need to wait until freaking October or later for a suspect.
Never would've thought that my post would spark a lot of attention. I may continue doing this for future quick tier changes
 

Kink

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I'm not opposed to a suspect test, but I don't actually think Scizor will leave and thus a suspect, in my view, is as harmless as it is pointless. I'm not a fan of some of the argumentation presented to warrant a suspect test. Right now in the UU tier a Steel-type is almost a necessity on every team since it offers incredible amounts of dynamism in teambuilding on both the offensive and defensive spectrum. Scizor will not always be the steel-type of choice for your team. Mega Aggron, Cobalion, Empoleon, and Klefki (hell even Bronzong) are all fantastic steel-types that provide different, efficient roles. Besides these, there are even more Steel-types to choose from to help reinforce the offensive or defensive utility of a team. Scizor is a fantastic mon, but not every team benefits from sticking it on there, and even if that were the case I'd argue that Steel-types offer such amazing benefits right now, that just the sheer act of changing up the Steel-type you use will radically change the flow of the game, especially if your opponent hasn't prepared for some of the tougher-to-break sets (such as Curseggron). With Breloom gone, teams will find a lot more breathing room - cores will adjust to their staple uses without needing to radically alter themselves to deal with loom. Whether or not I thought it was banworthy, I will straight up admit that loom was more of a centralizing force than Scizor is. Togekiss practically became a near-S rank caliber Pokemon simply due to how effective it was at dealing with Breloom & Co. Any advantage a team would gain from using dual Scizor/Loom cores (which I admit were tough to face against) are now far more restrained with just Scizor at the helm to take on the majority of SD/LO/Banded duties, especially with Amoonguss about to drop. Scizor has its place as the most dominant force in the meta, and almost all teams have to make sure they don't lose to a variety of common Scizor sets, but that's more about insuring your team doesn't lose to specific kinds of nukes, whilst insuring it can take on more than just a sponging role, which is the entire style of play surrounding Gen 7. Role compression has never been more important in UU, and this is definitely a staple of what makes Scizor so potent, but nearly every high VR level Pokemon has the same opportunity to perform multiple, compressed roles and perform them exceptionally well. And while some nukes are too much to handle for the UU tier, Scizor is definitely not one of them.
 
On the topic of nukes. If mamo drops I think that should get suspected, because in my experience it completely invalidates most balance builds. Not unlike Primarina, but what makes it broken imo is its slightly higher speed tier and access to ice shard letting it pick off weakened fastmons like the scarfed dragons. It does poorly vs HO and Stall, but balance which I think is rly good right now get so messed up by mamo. This is especially annoying considering Grand Slam is coming up and mamo basically makes most of the building preparation up to this point useless.
 

Freeroamer

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On the topic of nukes. If mamo drops I think that should get suspected, because in my experience it completely invalidates most balance builds. Not unlike Primarina, but what makes it broken imo is its slightly higher speed tier and access to ice shard letting it pick off weakened fastmons like the scarfed dragons. It does poorly vs HO and Stall, but balance which I think is rly good right now get so messed up by mamo. This is especially annoying considering Grand Slam is coming up and mamo basically makes most of the building preparation up to this point useless.
There’s a lot of things I dislike with the post but primarily calling for a suspect on a Pokemon that hasn’t even dropped yet is ridiculous, especially when it’s one we had in the tier for a long time before and which most people (not yourself obviously) had no problem with from a broken perspective. Secondly you acknowledge yourself that Mamo has a strong matchup against balance but performs rather more poorly against other archetypes. I agree mamo is a huge threat to balance, but I certainly don’t agree that it invalidates the playstyle. Aero and manectric are huge threats to hyper offenses and haxorus is a huge threat to stall, but people still use these styles and consequently we would never consider suspecting any of these. Certain Pokemon have very good matchups against certain team styles, that’s the game we play. The issues mamo faces is that it’s virtually impossible to get it into play outside of well executed double switches or coming in after a mon on your team has died and mamo can threaten the mon currently in. I would go as far to say that if you let mamo come in more than 3 (3 is a stretch too) times against you in a single game your opponent has either played incredibly well, you’ve played incredibly poorly or your team simply gives up too much leeway to mamo and needs a rethink.
 
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explodingdaisies

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On the topic of nukes. If mamo drops I think that should get suspected, because in my experience it completely invalidates most balance builds. Not unlike Primarina, but what makes it broken imo is its slightly higher speed tier and access to ice shard letting it pick off weakened fastmons like the scarfed dragons. It does poorly vs HO and Stall, but balance which I think is rly good right now get so messed up by mamo. This is especially annoying considering Grand Slam is coming up and mamo basically makes most of the building preparation up to this point useless.
It still does well against stall with stuff like freeze dry to nail quag and alo. Yes you need to invest a decent amount in SpA to 2HKO alo but it still does well. The only real answers for mamo is shit like cress(since it can eat knock off) rotom-h (if no stone edge) and zong(if no knock). Max defense scizor can stomach EQ. I'm curious to see how mamo will do. But suspecting it before it even drops is a tad much.
 
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Eyan

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Might as well try addressing this. This isn't anything concrete but just my personal thoughts. Specifically, regarding the possibility of a suspect during open, it's definitely possible, but it's hard to say how likely it is right now when it all depends on how the tier shifts go and when exactly they drop (there have been times where Antar went MIA for a bit after all). I feel like it'd help to take a look at how things worked last year around this time, since a lot of people either weren't around then or don't remember.
June 2017:
  • Major tier shifts like the ones we'll be having soon -> a lot of Megas that were just released for SM dropped to UU, along with stuff like Buzzwole, Xurkitree, and Mamoswine; we lost stuff like Keldeo, Bisharp, and Mew
  • Mega Houndoom was banned via council vote; Buzzwole and Xurkitree survived
July 2017:
  • Before open begin: Weavile was unbanned via council vote; Buzzwole, Xurkitree, and Latias got voted on -> Buzzwole was banned
  • We didn't get tier changes due to something with the stats and even then it would've just been quick changes, which we don't do anymore now
  • Conkeldurr was suspected (in the midst of Round 1 of open) and subsequently banned
August 2017:
  • More Megas like Mega Aggron dropped, along with Manaphy; stuff like Mega Swampert left
  • Manaphy was quickbanned (this kinda ties into how things should work to me for this coming tier shift but I'll link hogg's post from then
  • Xurkitree suspect (in the midst of Round 4 of open) and subsequently banned

Some measures taken then would still apply. For those going nuts asking for things to be banned before we even know the drops, chill out. Admittedly, the council hasn't sat down to have a 5-hour discussion on the hypothetical scenario of Mega Diancie dropping, but I feel that the fairest way to handle it would be akin to Manaphy from last year; if a drop sticks out as something that's inevitably going to be suspect tested 100%, then quickbanning it for future deliberation is an option. Stealing hogg's words here, the idea is that while tiering changes shouldn't be made for the sake of tours, when something is going to be suspected regardless, in order to not affect the biggest UU tour of the year (and part of the huge Grand Slam overall), it's better to quickban it. That carries the least risk as the worst that can happen is delaying the introduction of the Pokemon by a few weeks if we do find it not as unhealthy as initially thought, but the opposite would potentially make a mess of open. This does NOT mean quickbanning literally any drop on a whim since we still want to preserve as much of the legitimate shifts as possible and it certainly wouldn't be for the sake of accommodating another suspect.

It's true that last year we did have suspect tests at the start of open. Two in fact. Keep in mind, though, that this was still cleaning up stuff from June. This time, we only get to start doing that and letting things stabalise after open begins (for reference, signups would last until the end of the month and round 1 lasts 2 weeks into July). No way we'll be getting as huge of tier shifts as last year (that was when we got huge bombs dropped on us when Megas kept getting released in batches on cart), but things take a while to properly settle, so suspecting within the next couple of weeks is a horrible idea. I mean, if Gliscor leaves, that's enough to shake things up completely. Thing is, suspecting within the last few rounds of open is also a bad idea. Imagine something like finals being the only round without Scizor lol. I'd hate it as the host and on a personal level. So yeah, to me, a suspect during open is only fine if tier shifts settle fast within the first couple of rounds, and Scizor is such an influential Pokemon that rushing it isn't an option. Otherwise, it's to at least wait until slam is over.

I obviously can't make any promises of suspects (sorry pif). That's something only TLs can do. Within the council, it seems like most of us, at least among those that have commented, don't think Scizor is an issue and we're kinda split as to whether it's still worth the suspect or not. I'm of the opinion that something that splits the community this much wouldn't hurt to be looked at. It would never be pointless, as it's good to get concrete results from the community. And yeah, we kinda realised we forgot about Manaphy but as you (pif) said, I don't think anyone is complaining about that lol. Scizor is more touchy, though. My goal was just to clear up/address things regarding how shifts and suspects are handled during open, so hopefully, I accomplished that much :psynervous:

As a side note, UU open signups go up tomorrow, and do sign up early if you want to be guaranteed a place! I'll be announcing it in the UU discord. :psyglad:
 
As tier shifts approach, it's time to start talking about the new rises / drops. Gliscor rising and mamoswine dropping are the only two changes that are for sure going to happen, so i will talk about these two.

Gliscor rise: Many pokemon will enjoy the gliscor rise, including fighting pokemon (infernape, terrakion, cobalion, heracross), krookodile, and mega manectric. Mega manectric is a particularly interesting case. It will now be able to run hp grass to hit the meta's most popular ground pokemon, and will be much harder to switch in to. While it wont be able to hit latias as hard, it can still pivot on latias with volt switch. I think nidoqueen may gain popularity, since it walls hp grass mega manectric pretty well. Hopefully, mega manectric doesnt get TOO good, now that it can run hp grass without much consequence.

Mamoswine: I'm glad mamoswine is coming back. Bulky cores involving empoleon and alola muk just a got a whole lot easier to break through. Alomolala may become more common on balance teams.
 
So with tier shifts coming up, I want to talk about some of the Pokémon that will/are likely to leave UU, and Pokémon that will/are likely to drop to UU.

RISES
gliscor.gif

Current usage in OU:
| 53 | Gliscor | 3.634% |

Why will it rise?
Gliscor is an amazing Pokémon, being able to take on a few of the best Pokémon in OU, like Landorus-T, Toxapex and Heatran. It fits on the ever so popular balance, but is also really solid on BO and Stall. Gliscor's matchup against stall is also fairy solid, though stall has been on a decline in OU recently. Its solid bulk, acces to Defog, Roost, Knock and a good speed tier are all things that make this thing OU worthy, and should've risen long ago tbh.

How will this affect UU?
Good riddance. While Gliscor is one of the best, if not the best Pokémon in the tier, it's also one of the most annoying to face. But I'm not going to go into how Gliscor has been in UU. I'm moreso going to talk about which Pokémon could get better.

392MS.png
638MS.png
015MMS.png
214MS.png

These are already a bunch of Pokémon that will likely get better, or at least in the first couple of days. Scarf Infernape is absolutely going to get a LOT better, since Ape had nothing it could do against it. Cobalion might stay the same, as we'll likely see a rise in Hippowdon as the premier ground type (same for Ape, actually). Buuuut, it is at least nice that one of the better checks to Cobalion is gone, which will make Cobalion's day ever so slighty better. Mega Beedrill, while it still won't enjoy Scizor being as amazing as it is, is going to get a lot better now that one of its biggest checks won't be here anymore. Mega Beedrill + Magneton sounds very deadly ngl, might try that out. Heracross, especially the band set, is going to be sooooo good, as switchins to that thing are going to be very limited. Definitely going to enjoy using that thing.

Definitely glad this thing is going. While I loved using Gliscor, it's very good bulk is sometimes just a real annoyance to face. Can't wait to play a UU w/o Gliscor!


gastrodon.gif
gastrodon-east.gif

Current usage in OU:
| 37 | Gastrodon | 4.815% |

Why will it rise?
Its decent bulk, solid defensive typing and acces to Recover lets this thing take on some top tier threats in OU, like Heatran, Tapu Koko, Greninja(-Ash) and Magearna. This about sums it up tbh, nothing else more to say. It's just really, really, REALLY solid in OU.

How will this affect UU?
Not a whole lot, I'd say. Sure, it was nic(h)e for checking some Pokémon in the tier, like Nihilego, Mega Aero, Mega Mane (lacking HP Grass) and Volcanion, but all those Pokémon are either also checked by other Pokémon or have some way to break through Gastro. Don't think this rise will impact UU a whole lot, so I won't be going into details any further.


DROPS
diancie-mega.gif

Current usage in OU:
| 57 | Diancie-Mega | 3.288% |

Why will it drop?
''Mega Diancie's defensive stats are quite lackluster, leaving it very vulnerable to being revenge killed by common Choice Scarf users as well as faster Pokemon such as Greninja, Tapu Koko, and Mega Lopunny. This is made worse by Mega Diancie's common weaknesses to Ground-, Water-, Grass-, and Steel-type attacks.''
And with balance being so super popular, Mega Diancie just has a hard time breaking through all of those Pokémon (Steela, Growth, Bulu, Pex, Gastro). It's just not in a good spot rn.

How will this affect UU?
If the council's smart, they'll quickban this immediately and retest it (just like Mega Gallade & Mega Hera). The amount of sheer power this 'mon has is insane, and switching into it seems almost impossible. Though, here are some ways that you could beat it with:

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Mega Aggron takes any hit and OHKO's back. Shuca Berry Cobalion and Empoleon can both take a hit and OHKO back. Scizor OHKO's with BP. Starmie outspeeds and OHKO's. Suicune and Swampert can take a hit and either 2HKO or OHKO it back.
The real problem is that NONE of these Pokémon can keep switching into it, and eventually Mega Diancie will just win the matchup if they're weakened enough. Diamond Storm having a 50% chance to raise your defense by 2 stages isn't exactly the most balanced thing either...
The council probably knows what they're doing, but in my eyes Mega Diancie will be broken. Don't know if it's immediately going to be broken, or if it's going to be one of those long term Pokémon, but I just don't see this thing staying.


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Current usage in OU:
| 56 | Amoonguss | 3.290% |

Why will it drop?
Not exactly sure tbh. It's probably because of the surge of the Mega Lati's and Mega Zam, only thing I can think of.

How will this affect UU?
FINALLY, the REAL mushroom we need. For real, it's so nice to get this thing again. Being able to slap a Pokémon with Regen and checking every bulky water in the tier (except Starmie) is just so crucial for a UU 'mon. Not too sure if the meta's going to change all that much, so I won't be making predictions of what could get good and what could get worse, but if I'd have to guess stuff like SubRoost Kyurem and Sleep Talk Lati are going to be a thing again.
Also people pls don't ask for a Breloom re-test since we're getting Amoon back I'm BEGGING you.


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Current usage in OU:
| 58 | Mamoswine | 2.762% |

Why will it drop?
Because aim died.

How will this affect UU?
I like this 'mon a lot as now I can revenge kill Lati's again from like 60%. For real though, switching into this 'mon is soo hard, though its slow speed makes up for it. The rise in fighting types once Gliscor leaves and all the bulky waters will keep this at bay, but its really nice to have this strong of a hitter back in the tier. We missed ya tusks.

Welp, that was it. Very tired right now, so sorry if it wasn't as informative as you expected it to be. But these are just kind of my first thoughts when thinking about the upcoming rises/drops for UU, can't wait for them!

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| 51 | Bisharp | 3.788% |
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| 52 | Venusaur-Mega | 3.706% |
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| 50 | Latios | 3.859% |
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--> UUBL
 

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Mega Aggron takes any hit and OHKO's back. Shuca Berry Cobalion and Empoleon can both take a hit and OHKO back. Scizor OHKO's with BP. Starmie outspeeds and OHKO's. Suicune and Swampert can take a hit and either 2HKO or OHKO it back.
The real problem is that NONE of these Pokémon can keep switching into it, and eventually Mega Diancie will just win the matchup if they're weakened enough. Diamond Storm having a 50% chance to raise your defense by 2 stages isn't exactly the most balanced thing either...
I'd like to add Diancie also has the the capability of running rock polish, so even faster mons like Starmie won't be reliable revenge killers. I don't think it would even mind losing the coverage move, moonblast, EP and diamond storm is pretty legit already. Not to mention it's a threatening as hell rocker and can run more busted things like CM to trash balance or endeavor or some such. Really hope this thing gets quickbanned day 1.
 
I think there's been some scaremongering tactics designed to frighten voters into banning Mega Diancie without testing it out. While I do agree that it's powerful, and versatile (which isn't a unique feature in itself), I disagree with the sentiment that it's overwhelmingly so. As someone who plays OU very often - I can honestly say that UU has the tools to handle Mega Diancie. Of course, by tools I'm referring to Alomomola, Sylveon, Hippo, bliss, and soon to be Guss (the list goes on, I only mention these pokemon because of how common they are)
 
. Of course, by tools I'm referring to Alomomola, Sylveon, Hippo, bliss, and soon to be Guss
Thing is, SubEndeavor beats literally all of those except Sylveon (who can't really switch in on more attack invested sets). I feel like Mega Diancie is versatile enough where it can beat almost all of its checks / counters in the tier. Ofcourse, I wouldn't mind testing it, but I think the best decision is to quickban it immediately and retest it.
 
i think we should suspect serp before we get deeper into open

i know back to back suspects in such a short period of time, outside of drops, is a bit unorthodox, but i feel like the reason serp was overlooked was largely because of how broken loom was.

serp is an incredibly good pokemon, and the same arguments that were used for the loom ban can also be applied to serp. i believe serp only has one consistent defensive countermeasure right now: crobat, and even then crobat can lose to the glare z-hyper beam set. every other means of serp counterplay can be beaten, and to be honest, beaten rather easily. AV beats offensive answers (hydreigon, kyurem, latias), while subseed beats defensive answers (muk/blissey). rocks only exacerbate how good serp is, as moltres, kyurem, and crobat are unable to switch in multiple times, particularly against AV or z-hyper beam sets. the resulting effect on teambuilding is requiring multiple checks/counters, in the same vein as breloom. this is naturally unhealthy, and it was the main reason why an overwhelming majority of voters voted ban on breloom.

the only reservations i'd have for a serp suspect would be if amoonguss were to drop, but since we don't have a clear-cut timeline for that happening, i'd rather err on the side of caution and have a suspect.

obviously i don't want to jump the gun here, but i think preserving the stability of the tier's metagame has a stronger precedence than interrupting the first 1-2 rounds of open, particularly when serp could be marauding around open in later and more important rounds.
 

pokeisfun

UU player and community member
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
i think we should suspect serp before we get deeper into open

i know back to back suspects in such a short period of time, outside of drops, is a bit unorthodox, but i feel like the reason serp was overlooked was largely because of how broken loom was.

serp is an incredibly good pokemon, and the same arguments that were used for the loom ban can also be applied to serp. i believe serp only has one consistent defensive countermeasure right now: crobat, and even then crobat can lose to the glare z-hyper beam set. every other means of serp counterplay can be beaten, and to be honest, beaten rather easily. AV beats offensive answers (hydreigon, kyurem, latias), while subseed beats defensive answers (muk/blissey). rocks only exacerbate how good serp is, as moltres, kyurem, and crobat are unable to switch in multiple times, particularly against AV or z-hyper beam sets. the resulting effect on teambuilding is requiring multiple checks/counters, in the same vein as breloom. this is naturally unhealthy, and it was the main reason why an overwhelming majority of voters voted ban on breloom.

the only reservations i'd have for a serp suspect would be if amoonguss were to drop, but since we don't have a clear-cut timeline for that happening, i'd rather err on the side of caution and have a suspect.

obviously i don't want to jump the gun here, but i think preserving the stability of the tier's metagame has a stronger precedence than interrupting the first 1-2 rounds of open, particularly when serp could be marauding around open in later and more important rounds.
As much as I agree with you overall and think Serperior deserves a test, it's not really fair to say that Serperior is broken for very similar reasons to Breloom. Serperior doesn't have the RNG cheese of Bullet Seed and Spore unlike Breloom (bar Glare and Contrary Defog shenanigans which isn't nearly as ubiquitous as the other moves were on Breloom).

That said, my critique is only a small one and I think the point that you're getting at (Serperior is a top notch sweeper with few reliable responses) is totally valid.

Another point I would add to your post, while suspecting Scizor might be iffy because it's very much a glue and stabilizing Pokémon, Serperior much less of a stabilizing factor in the metagame. Nobody says "I need Serperior to check a bunch of threats and keep my team together and pivot with", as Serperior's water killing functions can easily be replaced by say Celebi. Therefore suspecting Serperior could be seen as less "risky" in terms of metagame stability, risky meaning having less potential to destabilize.
 
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