np: USUM UU Stage 7.1 - Controversy (Breloom banned from UU)

[KM]

one more comment, after just finishing the reqs grind

I completed my reqs using a very standard team that uses breloom. the reason i mention this is because the ladder on a suspect ladder is very clearly trying to counter breloom. people are running 3+ breloom counters on a team, nu and ru mons that otherwise don't see the light of day, etc, etc.

the consequence of running these "counters" is that the teams are very weak. it should not be possible to pretty easily coast up to rank 3 using a standard loom team in a meta that theoretically is very hostile to loom teams. but the reality is is that most loom checks and counters are otherwise c-tier mons or below, and they're pretty much all beaten by the same type of threats (SpD rotom H, which I ran on my team, checks or counters like 90% of them, for instance).

while this doesn't necessarily mean "loom is broken", just that it's not worth trying to counter loom with subpar mons, it makes it pretty clear that anyone claiming "it's easily countered" isn't really reflecting the reality of how bad teams end up being when you run those things

 

[Finchinator]

I'm not gonna pretend to be a UU main or someone who has extensive experience both building and playing in the current metagame, but I did manage to get reqs earlier and I've been following the metagame for a while now, so I figured I'd drop my 2 cents.

Breloom is a bit of a weird case because usually banworthy suspects have on pin-pointable set that you can say "oh, wow -- this is the problem" (i.e: CB Azumarill for Azumarill or Z-Celebrate Venusaur for Venusaur in NU, for those that are familiar), but for Breloom that isn't necessarily the case. The Choice Band set is probably the closest and honestly if it lingers for much longer in the metagame, it may actually take this title seeing as it is trending up a ton it seems, but even then there are a ton of other good sets and they all have very practical applications. While I am not necessarily big on the whole "versatility -> banworthy" argument, I do not think that this is necessarily the proper conclusion that we have to draw from the current state of Breloom, which happens to have a number of variants revolving around multiple abilities and a respectable offensive movepool.

The fact of the matter is that given these characteristics, Breloom is "too good" for the defensive counterplay that surrounds it in the metagame. While Sage brings up some relevant points and examples of defensive pivots and counters, it is not hard for them to be taken out through Spore, Choice Banded attacks, or SD + Facade on the Poison Heal set. There is hardly any universal counterplay and those that happen to fulfill that role are not exactly the most practical additions (or they happen to have other downsides that can be taken advantage of in teambuilding -- i.e: Pursuit or Stealth Rock weakness, which lets Breloom inevitably break through if played properly in the context of the game). I'm aware this probably sounds wishy-washy, but there are so many examples (pif and adaam both do a fantastic jobs outlining this point in more depth than I will in this post) of the Choice Band set muscling through a check on the second or third time in or the SD + Facade set getting kills due to people expecting the other and switching into a defensive pivot that eats sleep and then gets killed (or something else takes significant damage while that gets slept, which is a ton of damage done for only one time in for the Breloom user). Ultimately, I do not think that Breloom is uncounterable/uncheckable, but doing so with the necessary efficiency and positioning to win a game in the long-haul is far from easy and I think that the shroomer is simply too much on this basis. Finally, do note that I only really elaborated on the Choice Band and SD + Facade variants, but I think that Life Orb (especially with Rock Tomb) and Z Technician variants are also similarly effective and at times can even be more potent than the alternatives I discussed.

Given this, I will personally be voting ban on Breloom!

 

[Jaajgko]

Sage's post makes a lot of sense, but there is one part I really disagree with :

"What I'm mainly saying here is that Breloom "50/50s" can often be 33/33/33s so to speak. He can try and Rock Tomb, Spore, or Bullet Seed. Alt takes the latter two, Scizor takes Tomb or Speed, Tenta eats Tomb. The fact that you have to hit these predictions with much more accuracy than something like a Choice Specs Primarina (where your options basically boil down to Water move or Fairy move in most matchups) adds to its inconsistency as a breaker."

Contrary to Primarina or other breakers like Nidoking, Breloom has no viable safe switch-in, the only mon that can switch on it no matter what set it is running is defensive Celebi with psychic, which has a very small niche, but everybody talked about that. The point is that until you know the set, you don't know what your switch-in is, and if it's just SD Spore you have to let a mon being put to sleep. So though it is a 50/50 or 33/33/33, the Breloom user always has the advantage, because he knows the set and you don't, and even after you figured what set it was, the Breloom user is always advanctaged (unless when it's a situation where it has to click mach punch) because bullet seed does a shit ton to every mon anw.

Because of it frailty, Breloom may not be able to come on the field as much as it would like to but even when it's not on the field it forces the opponent to make certain plays in order to not let it coming in, and you can easily build around it so that it can put that pressure very often.

I'm about to get my reqs and I will be voting toward a ban, even if on some match-ups it does nothing, the lucky factor and the pressure it puts in both teambuilding and playing is unhealthy to the metagame.

 

[dingbat]

putting it here in case i somehow lose it

I was originally going to vote no ban, but after laddering for reqs, I'm definitely a lot more convinced that it should get banned.

For one, I absolutely underestimated how much pressure loom actually exerts in practice. I think most of us can agree that Technician Spore + SD is the strongest set atm, as not only does it take advantage of one of the most broken moves in the game in Spore, but it also shows Loom's devastating offensive power behind Spore. Sure, you may have two or three checks or even counters to Loom in your arsenal, but put something like a Moltres (without Sleep Talk) switch to sleep and Breloom now has a wider avenue to just wreak havoc. Worse yet, you also risk having one of Loom's teammates like Scizor ravage through whatever remaining Breloom checks exist on that team, because chances are those checks succumb to some other massive threat on Breloom's side. I've run into this exact scenario plenty of times throughout my laddering both as a perpetrator and a victim, and quite frankly, a whole lot of stupid bullshit gets produced with this sort of matchup.

Although Breloom has some issues defensively due to its general inability to freely switch into most threats and its relatively heavy reliance on Mach Punch with its average speed, its combination of Spore backed up by its offensive prowess in my opinion has proved a bit much for this meta right now.

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

Well I'm not sure if I'm the most qualified person to give my opinion on loom, but I'll damn well try anyways.

Is Breloom strong? Absolutely. I don't think anyone will disagree with me on that statement. Spore is stupid, its mach punch is basically like Scizor's bullet punch with a better offensive typing, the RNG madness that is bullet seed, etc etc. But is it banworthy? In my (relatively insignificant) opinion, no.

Don't get me wrong, it can absolutely ravage through even prepared teams. However, I have another theory. Many people try to counter things defensively, something that slows its sweep to a halt but doesn't kill it. Stuff like this includes Tsareena, Safety Goggles Crobat, putting sleep talk on everything, etc. However, I feel that few people have taken into consideration offensive counterplay, which it is significantly weaker too, owing to its paper thin bulk and crappy speed. Let's take an offensively viable Pokemon in the tier, say Latias. Latias easily OHKOs with Psychic or Draco before Breloom can do much of anything. Mach Punch does a measly 23% max adamant. Switching in is a bit of an issue, but being as getting a 5Hit bullet seed is about as likely as Focus Blast actually hitting, you more likely than not won't have any problems. Let's take another pokemon, something that doesn't check Breloom as easily, Scizor. CB Scizor (the most popular Scizor set) has a 4/7 chance to OHKO with U-Turn when rocks are up. Superpower unused OHKOs it no matter what. The most Breloom can do is Mach Punch which has ~1/5 chance to 2HKO when rocks are up. It can't even 2HKO without rocks. The SD set is much of the same scenario except it has to set up beforehand, and sometimes it can be good going unboosted seeing as some looms have a focus sash.

I could go through many instances on instances on why Breloom doesn't fare the best to offensive counterplay (and HO in general), but I think my point has been expressed enough. Breloom is a very strong Pokemon that is short of the barrier of being broken due to its less than favorable matchup against offensive counterplay. I hope to see how the results turn out, be it ban or stay.

 

[Hogg]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stage-7-1-voting-identification-thread.3637008/

 

[Amane Misa]

I did get reqs with a mono-water team featuring Marill so obviously, Breloom has been a huge threat to my team, but I will have my opinion based as if I got reqs with a regular team.

I used to be pro-do not ban on Breloom, I had this opinion even after I got the reqs. I mainly focused on the fact that I almost never had any trouble with Breloom if I had a minimum of two Breloom checks on a team. They were usually enough for me to have a good matchup against opposing an opposing Breloom.

However, the moment I was introduced to the Choice Band set (which I used back in ORAS OU and people called me bad) and 2HKO'd an offensive Celebi with Rock Tomb from full, I just knew that Breloom needs to get banned.

Look at it from this perspective: its damage output is insane; a 5-hits Bullet Seed, a 187.5BP move, that is boosted by STAB, coming off 591 base attack (an Adamant Choice Band Breloom). Obviously, things in practice are different than on paper and you shouldn't vote to ban Breloom just because of this fact, but I still think it's important to look at things from this perspective. It also has Rock Tomb to hit offensive Celebi and Mega Altaria variants on the switch-in, do 50% and drop their Speed stat, a Technician-boosted priority in Mach Punch, and a move that potentially neutralizes an opposing Pokemon in Spore.

Yeah, I don't have anything to add that wasn't already mentioned. As much as I love Breloom and I'd have loved to keep using it, the wise decision for the healthiness of the tier, in my opinion, is to vote ban.

 

[Pais]

Yo I'm new in UU world and I did the suspect despite it was the first I was playing UU. I think anyway that is not healthy, the metagame doesn't benefit from breloom due to the great amount of MU it has against every kind of team. It centralizes a lot the metagame due to the possible moveset he can have and there aren't many solid checks to face it. I think Breloom limits the building, too. I don't think there is a good reason to let it stay in the metagame, so I'll vote ban.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

Breloom is a major constraint when it comes down to teambuilding. Its versatility is, in my opinion, what makes it so difficult to deal with. For exactly half of my games on ladder, I used rob’s sand balance team. Every four games, I switched the Breloom set:

1) Poison Heal
2) Spore + LO
3) Choice Band
4) Z-Move
5) Natural Gift

Out of all my 20 games with the team, there were only 3 times where Breloom didn't perform well, 2 of which I lost. My point behind this is that, with the exact same team, I was able to customize Breloom's set to my liking and use it effectively for 17/20 games despite the fact that the vast majority of players packed a couple of answers to it on their teams.

Sage had a phenomenal post, but as others pointed before me, these Pokemon can be broken in some way (bar Doublade). Looking at the rows of Consistent Defensive Answers or Solid Checks, every single one is beat through coverage like Natural Gift Ice, Breackneck Blitz, or Rock Tomb. The worst part is that Breloom can beat all of these supposed answers in a single moveslot, and packing one Pokemon isn't enough - the moment you give Breloom a free turn, you have to pick something else to go to sleep. The advantage is always on the user's side because only he knows what set it's running. This makes it exceedingly hard for the opposition to reliably counter Breloom without first knowing its set.

A Pokemon that can easily bust through its defensive answers with several different sets, pack a 100% accurate sleep-inducing move, and have access to priority is not easy to prep for on paper. Slapping Sleep Talk on a Pokemon is very lazy and something I'd hardly consider "innovative", as you're relying on RNG to do everything for you (as shown by my UUPL game which others before me have linked). Breloom even has more viable sets that it can run compared to Latias and Scizor - both of which can be trapped and do not have a sleep-inducing move.

When it boils down to it, teambuilding in UU is already quite difficult when you have to take into account Scizor, Dragon-types, stall, etc. Breloom is just another major headache that makes teambuilding less fun due to the plethora of sets it can run. I firmly believe removing this Pokemon, whether or not it is actually deemed "broken", is healthier for the tier as a whole, which is why I will be voting to ban it.

 

[Hogg]

I've been relatively silent here because all my thoughts from the last thread basically stand. To briefly summarize: Breloom is incredibly hard to get into play, because it is outsped and at worst 2HKO'd by a significant portion of the tier (including almost every top 'mon), and I believe that sleep, while annoying, isn't actually something unreasonable to play around. Rather than rehash those same arguments, I'll just requote them:

Hide

I feel like a bit of a broken record at this point, and maybe it's just because I play a lot of other tiers/gens where sleep is more relevant, but... why exactly is "you should build in a way that accounts for the existence of sleep moves" insanity? I feel like having a sleep absorber was pretty much a team requirement for gens 2-5, and wasn't actually that uncommon last gen either. I understand that sleep is annoying, but why is it considered unhealthy to have to account for it when you build? Between grass types carrying an immunity to powder moves, abilities like Overcoat and the universal distribution of Sleep Talk, it's not even particularly arduous to build around. It's not like Breloom is the only abuser here, as we've been seeing a surge in sets like HypnoHex Gengar and some anti-meta 'mons like Roserade and Vileplume lately.

Anyhow, one of the big reasons I wanted to hold off on a loom suspect was to see how the meta developed with Amoonguss gone. UUPL has been a great testing ground for the post-shifts and post-Azu meta. I've watched every SM game this UUPL, in addition to keeping an eye on the ladder and various roomtours.

The ladder definitely seemed like it saw a big surge in loom usage right after the Amoong ban, but from what I've seen it has actually settled down a fair bit since. This is purely anecdotal because I haven't seen May's stats yet, but from playing and watching a fair bit, it feels like Breloom is nowhere near where it was a month ago (when it surged into the top 5 in usage). This makes sense, because in general the meta seems like it has been shifting around it. Latias seems to have supplanted Gliscor and Manectric to hover right behind Scizor in usage, and I feel like there has also been a big rise in usage of Altaria and Aero, to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if they were both in top 10. We're seeing other trends as well: Kommo-o, Celebi and Chandy have been getting solid usage these days too. All in all the meta on the ladder has been adjusting since Breloom's rise, and things are way less favorable for it than they were right after Amoonguss left. It's still a really good 'mon and a powerful offensive threat, but it doesn't feel anywhere near as dominant as it did a month ago.

Freeroamer covered UUPL fairly well, but the trends are even more pronounced there. Breloom hasn't been totally worthless but it has a really poor winrate, and its usage isn't what you'd expect from a top 'mon. Of course, the trends you see toward the high end of the ladder end up even more pronounced in UUPL: Latias has even eclipsed Scizor in usage there, Aero is the most popular mega, Toge usage is surprisingly high (I blame Sacri'), etc. These factors seem to be enough to hold Breloom in check despite other factors that seemingly should help it, such as a rise in prominent Mach Punch targets (Krook, Hydra and Terrak usage all seems to be on the rise).

All in all, I feel like the meta has adjusted around Breloom fairly well. Yes, you do need to build with it in mind, and that might mean thinking about how you deal with sleep in general. And yes, I strongly agree with pokeisfun and Freeroamer that Toxic Orb sets need to be explored more (although they have significant drawbacks as well, most particularly in their inability to touch the Ghost-types of UU that have been seeing a bit of a surge). But I find Breloom significantly easier to build around than other top threats like Sciz, Lati and Gliscor, and in practice I just haven't seen it putting in the work that people in this thread have been saying it puts in. I'm not opposed to a Breloom suspect (though I wanted to wait until UUPL was mostly over to give the meta a chance to develop), but I still just plain don't find it broken.

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Anyhow, onto Breloom (not really going to address Serp though many of these same points apply to Serp as well)...

Two major points:

1. A pokemon doesn't need to have some magic perfect counters that 100% counter all of its sets in order to not be broken. There are plenty of pokemon that, assuming every possible set/move and taking into account Z-moves, are nearly uncounterable. What they do need to have to remain in the tier is realistic counterplay.

2. Being forced to account for a pokemon in your teambuilding does NOT make something overly centralizing. Flat out, full stop. Top threats are top threats and if you want a good team you should absolutely account for them. Yes, when Breloom came into the tier you probably needed to change a bunch of your teams.

What this conversation seems to be missing is how easy it is to pressure Breloom. It has very few opportunities to come in. Of the 17 'mons in S through A ranks, it struggles to come in on literally every single one. Breloom has to try to come in on an aggressive double or wait until something dies. Gliscor is one of Breloom's best matchups, and people mention it as something that it can come in on, but U-turn takes a chunk out and leaves 'loom in a terrible spot, unboosted Facade has roughly a 75% chance to 2HKO, Ice Fang has a chance to do it, and barring a 5-hit LO Bullet Seed or gimmicky sets like NG Ice, Breloom isn't KOing back. Considering that U-turn is on almost 30% of Gliscors and Facade or Ice Fang end up on another ~30% (usage stats last month say 27% run Uturn, 20% run Facade and 13% run Ice Fang), that is nowhere close to a safe switch. As far as the rest, they pretty much universally just straight up KO you barring Suicune (which means risking a Scald burn for non-pheal sets). Breloom isn't coming in easily and it's not generating free turns.

At absolute best, against a team with no good defensive answers to your particular set, Breloom will trade when it comes in. That's assuming it has the right moves, and assuming it nails every prediction correctly. It's extremely rare that Breloom sweeps a competent player (in the 33 SM games that have been played so far this UUPL, it hasn't happened once). Now, forcing trades is pretty good... that's mostly what we banned Azu for, right? Well, yeah, it definitely is good, but unlike Breloom, Azu actually had decent bulk and defensive typing to allow it way more opportunities to come in during a game. Again, see the above, and think about how exactly you're getting your Breloom into play.

Now, that doesn't mean that Breloom is bad or anything. It's a really good 'mon. Yes, you absolutely have to adjust your teambuilding to account for it, just like you need to build with Scizor or Latias or Gliscor or Manectric or Serperior in mind. Maybe that adjustment means something as simple as putting Sleep Talk on your Scarf Lati so you have a reliable way to deal with Spore, and maybe it means revamping your team entirely. If you've been watching UUPL games this year I think it's safe to say that Breloom has not magically invalidated slower teams like people are positing in this thread, and even post-Amoonguss they are finding plenty of ways to adjust around it.

I got reqs on a pair of alts, using four teams: full stall, an offensive sashspam team and two balance teams. Unsurprisingly, neither stall nor offense had a lick of trouble versus Breloom. In fact, I'd put it below most of the other S and A rank threats in those matchups; things like Serperior and Krookodile didn't have great matchups versus either the stall I used or my offense, but they still managed to put in work more often versus me then Breloom.

And what about the balance teams? At first I used a variant of a team Christo and I built during SPL, with Amoonguss replaced by Vileplume. As a straight swap, the team worked fine: Vileplume was a consistent enough answer that I was able to otherwise use a fairly 'loom weak team without any issues (even against sets like Poison Heal). But using one of 'looms strongest answers didn't really seem fair for a test here (though Vileplume was actually pretty decent even outside of the 'loom matchup). So, I built a new one, with soft answers like Lati and Nihilego but no hard counters. Breloom did some work in a few games then, as one might expect from an A+ 'mon, but it still didn't do anything that remotely came off as broken. It couldn't kill anything without subsequently giving up free setup to my CM Lati, and it couldn't actually directly switch into anything on the team without heavy prediction.

These are all things that I think have to be considered before you start looking at a wall of intimidating calcs and getting scared. Yes, Breloom has an incredibly high damage ceiling, and Spore is a pain in the ass. But the idea that you just get dunked on unless you run one of a couple of fairly niche answers like defensive Celebi/Vileplume just isn't true. You have those options, and they can help make up for a team that is otherwise 'loom weak, but you can also just build to avoid giving 'loom free turns, just like you can play around Latias without being forced to slap Alo-Muk on every team.

Breloom is definitely dangerous, and I can see why its high damage ceiling and the unpredictable nature of Technician Bullet Seed or Spore can make people find it unhealthy. I'm not pretending it's a bad 'mon. But at least in my experience, it just hasn't been anything resembling broken, so I'll be voting do not ban.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Hey, it's me, the retard that suggested that Golisopod could be viable.

I do not plan to get reqs for this suspect. I suck at UU and don't even really like most mainstream Smogon tiers these days. I will also not waste my time regurgitating other people's points. Instead, I am here to provide a mini-PSA that is important in the context of this suspect.

Do not vote DNB for Breloom simply because it is technically not broken. Users like Sage and Hogg have made posts which describe in great depth why they feel Breloom is not broken, that it has counterplay, that you can contend with it without resorting to more niche options like Vileplume. And while I certainly respect their opinion, I honestly think they are missing the point of why people want Breloom gone.

Perhaps Breloom has counterplay, perhaps you can't auto-lose to it. But the problem with Breloom is that, as others have said, it constrains teambuilding to a major degree. Smogon as a whole as a huge problem where TLs are too afraid to ban/suspect shit because they don't think they are "broken" despite constraining teambuilding and making the meta stale and unfun (cough cough OU cough cough), I mean that's a discussion for another time but the point is that Breloom falls into that camp where it maybe isn't the definition of "broken" but it forces you to waste 2 slots on counters to it and makes teambuilding in this chaotic tier even more of a mess, and to me, that's grounds for ban.

TL;DR NOT BROKEN = NOT BANWORTHY

 

[Hogg]

Per Smogon tiering policy, while a Pokemon being unhealthy can be reason for a ban, primarily bans should focus on things that are broken or uncompetitive, as "unhealthy" is incredibly subjective and very hard to demonstrate. Things that fall under this category, according to the tiering policy, should only be banned as an absolutely last resort.

Beyond that, finding a metagame stale should never be a reason to ban or unban something. We should never fiddle with tiers just because we're bored.

(I don't even really agree that Breloom is unhealthy, either; I don't find that it poses significant teambuilding restraints and find it easier to build around than many other top threats in UU. The only pro-ban argument I've found really compelling so far has been pif's, namely that Bullet Seed and the variable nature of sleep turns introduces too many elements of luck into the game, but even the threat of a five-hit Bullet Seed or max turn sleep doesn't take away how hard Breloom is to get into play or how easy it is to revenge or force out even if it does disable/kill something).

 

[xMarth]

There's no decision making process for me here. I voted to ban Breloom the first suspect and the time since has only further cemented my opinion. The strain Breloom puts on team building combined with its absurd damage ceiling, strong priority and Spore all contribute to what makes it absolutely broken. Its speed is just low enough where quite a few Pokemon can speed creep it to keep it in check but those Pokemon don't just get that fast for free. I've seen plenty of people resort to usually useless moves, items and abilities just to kind of keep Breloom in check. That's the main difference between the team building restrictions Breloom provides and the other top threats. Stuff like Safety Goggles, Sleep Talk and Overcoat are hardly viable options outside of the Breloom match up in the current meta.

I've seen people argue that we should keep Breloom because we should be prepared for sleep. This is a very shaky argument to me as the best way to block Spore is through grass types and all of our grass types can get destroyed by one or more Breloom set. Its difficult to fit more than one grass type on a team as well so its pretty predictable what someone is going to do when Breloom is given a free turn. Sleep fodder is the other way to deal with sleep and that essentially eliminates one mon from the game when played well.

In regards to Breloom's poor UUPL performance I really think that's due to overpreperation. UUPL usage certainly reflects this with most of the top ten mons being able to threaten Breloom. I'm sure at least 90% of the Gliscors, Togekiss and Tentacruel were all made to be specifically faster than Breloom too.

Its true that Breloom has trouble switching in directly to many Pokemon. That'd be a big factor if Voltturn wasn't a fantastic team archetype to support it by generating plenty of free turns which Breloom can capitalize perfectly on.

All in all Breloom being allowed in the tier in the first place was a mistake. The combination of its powerful priority, Spore and strong wallbreaking tools make it incredibly straining on team building so I'll be voting ban. That being said I agree with the posts that have said its not the most constraining Pokemon thats in the tier. That honor belongs to Scizor so let's ban that next.

 

[KM]

There's no decision making process for me here. I voted to ban Breloom the first suspect and the time since has only further cemented my opinion. The strain Breloom puts on team building combined with its absurd damage ceiling, strong priority and Spore all contribute to what makes it absolutely broken. Its speed is just low enough where quite a few Pokemon can speed creep it to keep it in check but those Pokemon don't just get that fast for free. I've seen plenty of people resort to usually useless moves, items and abilities just to kind of keep Breloom in check. That's the main difference between the team building restrictions Breloom provides and the other top threats. Stuff like Safety Goggles, Sleep Talk and Overcoat are hardly viable options outside of the Breloom match up in the current meta.

I've seen people argue that we should keep Breloom because we should be prepared for sleep. This is a very shaky argument to me as the best way to block Spore is through grass types and all of our grass types can get destroyed by one or more Breloom set. Its difficult to fit more than one grass type on a team as well so its pretty predictable what someone is going to do when Breloom is given a free turn. Sleep fodder is the other way to deal with sleep and that essentially eliminates one mon from the game when played well.

In regards to Breloom's poor UUPL performance I really think that's due to overpreperation. UUPL usage certainly reflects this with most of the top ten mons being able to threaten Breloom. I'm sure at least 90% of the Gliscors, Togekiss and Tentacruel were all made to be specifically faster than Breloom too.

Its true that Breloom has trouble switching in directly to many Pokemon. That'd be a big factor if Voltturn wasn't a fantastic team archetype to support it by generating plenty of free turns which Breloom can capitalize perfectly on.

All in all Breloom being allowed in the tier in the first place was a mistake. The combination of its powerful priority, Spore and strong wallbreaking tools make it incredibly straining on team building so I'll be voting ban. That being said I agree with the posts that have said its not the most constraining Pokemon thats in the tier. That honor belongs to Scizor so let's ban that next.

seconding and expanding on the volt turn comment. breloom has the unique ability to force out both bulky waters (alomomola, swampert, quag, milotic, empoleon, etc) and special walls (blissey, fairies to a lesser extent), and as such while it might be quite hard to DIRECTLY SWITCH IN breloom because of frailty or scald burns or whatever, there are an abundance of opportunities to get breloom in on risk-free u-turns and volt switches. Couple this with the fact that many of its checks are themselves weak to VS / u-turn mons (celebi, togekiss) and you have scenarios that, in practice, allow breloom to come in several times in a match to make some very low-risk clicks that punch holes in most teams.

 

[brodudeguy1]

In my opinion, there are two moves that make breloom broken: Techician mach punch and rock tomb.

Mach punch: Breloom is broken simply because it has technician mach punch in combination with its fantastic wallbreaking capability. Technician priority is what really what sets it apart from wallbreakers like heracross. (If heracross got a 60 power priority fighting move, im sure it would be just as controversial).

Rock tomb was a big part of its wallbreaking ability, hitting almost all of its checks with a whopping 90 power and a garuntee to lower the opponent's speed. I think rock tomb started out a little underrated, but is now becoming much more popular as people realize just how powerful it is.

I finally got reqs on an alt after tilting on my main account, so I will vote ban.

 

[Kink]

warning: very subjective and extremely singular post coming up and I'm voting do not ban and the tl:dr is pretty much I think loom rewards skill from its inclusion in the tier more than it takes away due to its extreme volitility (believe it or not) and since skill is what we're trying to promote here, I'm fine with loom.

I got reqs twice because I'm an idiot, so take this as an opinion from an idiot, but despite every ban argument I've read, from my personal experience of both using loom and playing against loom, I felt that loom play and counterplay rewarded skill far more than luck. In the sense of facing loom, the things I had to do to beat it (and win the game) almost always had to do with being creative and rewarding skillfull play. The most relevant buzzwords I can think of is that it encouraged intuitive and unorthodox teambuilding, promoted creative use of "psychological warfare", and rewarding "the right play at the right time". I'll include one of the teams I used to get reqs below to show you guys an idea of what I did - it was honestly nothing too special. Based on my overall experiences, on an intuitive level, loom forces people to make sharp, cohesive plays, whether it's being used or fought against.

The second time I got reqs I didn't even use loom and I felt no different about the experience insofar that I felt no disadvantage not using Breloom. I did not feel that not using loom decreased making the opportunity to make rewarding and cohesive plays, or prevent me from utilizing different methodologies in that regard. What got in the way most of the time was poorly timed hax, or my own blunders. From my standpoint, there was nothing about the tier itself that stood in the way of me making the right or wrong decisions. I didn't feel constrained in my teambuilding, I actually felt free to run more options and explore more variety. I like the new toys that have appeared in response to loom and I'm not just talking about Sleep Talk; for example, the defensive Celebi variant that I run actually runs 136+ Timid in order to beat Nidoking and other 95s and under, which allows my other mons to utilize their roles more efficiently when utilizing a defensive pivot. Sure it's not as good as Amoonguss, but it's better than mediocre and there are more sets than just this one that can accomplish a whole lot for your team, without being setup fodder. Another example, I have started using a Sub CM Scald Ice Beam 252 HP / 116 SpA / 140 Spe Suicune set that outspeeds loom and OHKOs at +1 with Ice Beam and it works wonders for me. Ghost-types such as Chandelure and Gengar love the Breloom matchup even if there are hard checks in the form of Muk-A. Chipping, long-term planning, and non-brainless wallbreaking are all components of a meta that values skill.

While I do think that the pace of the tier is riddled with hard-hitting nuke tactics and desperately trying to counter those tactics, I think that's more of an issue of z-moves and nothing to do with stuff like Scizor or Loom. Pace, in my view, has to do with whether or not something "feels" right. If the pace of games is always wild and out of control, it doesn't feel good. Instability and apprehension don't feel good. Seeing a team that has Gliscor Latias Breloom Scizor gives people anxiety because those mons create a combination of over 200 sets. But you can still prepare for those 200 combinations quite easily - the challenge is figuring it out. That challenge isn't brainless - I like the challenge. I think tons of people are getting better because of learning how to deal with things like breloom. Ok that's enough bye.

team

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Volt Switch

Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- U-turn

Manectric @ Manectite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Flamethrower

Togekiss @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Roost
- Heal Bell

Swampert @ Choice Band
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Ice Punch
- Superpower

Gengar @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Substitute
- Destiny Bond

 

[AriaoftheStars]

It might be too late to sway any opinions, but as a UU player, I thought I’d share my thoughts.

I usually play one of two UU teams: A balanced team (that features Breloom) and a stall team (that does not).
I, in my experience using and countering Breloom, do not consider it nearly as scary as many of you. This is what I have found.

It seems the biggest issue is that people dislike Spore. Fair enough, it can be annoying, but I feel people forget all the ways to avoid it: Switch to a Grass type, switch to a Poison Healer, switch to an already-statused mon (extra points for a Flame Orb user), or use something with Natural Cure that can easily cure itself.
You argue that you spend the rest of the battle 6vs5, but why haven’t you considered a Heal Bell user? That’s not something that is used just to counter Breloom - if you’re so vulnerable to status, it also heals every other condition and can save you from multiple threats.
One of the best ways to deal with Spore is to allow Breloom to Spore a wall, switch in to a counter (preferably one that cannot be Pursuit-trapped), and scare him out. Breloom is rather frail, especially without Spore at his hands (since your slumbering wall will trigger the sleep clause if he tries), and usually succumbs to even a neutral 2HKO. If your wall is reliant, he’ll be able to take a hit or two while sleeping, wake up, recover (if he’s a good wall), and bam! Breloom accomplishes little to nothing.

You also speak as if every Breloom counter is sub-par, but I highly disagree. Let me name some:

Gengar is faster, immune to Mach Punch, resistant to Bullet Seed, and has super-effective STAB. (The downside is the Pursuit-vulnerability.)

Mega-Manectric takes about 1/4 damage from Mach Punch, and PUNISHES with Overheat. Furthermore, its Electric type moves scare Mega-Aerodactyl, which is a common teammate.

Latias is already a great mon, is resistant to both of Breloom’s STABs, and has super-effective Psychic to KO him with. She also has a variety of coverage in her movepool that can be used to counter other threats, making her a great multi-tasker and Sp. Attacker. The downside is the vulnerability to Pursuit.

Togekiss is usually faster - especially using the popular Choice Scarf set - is doubly resistant to Mach Punch, resists Bullet Seed, MURDERS with Air Slash, and resists Pursuit. It is a great mon to use regardless of whether Breloom is on the opposing team, and a fantastic Breloom counter - you need to watch for Rock Tomb, but I haven’t found that to be a huge threat in much experience using her.

Chandelure is immune to Mach Punch, resists Bullet Seed, but needs to watch out for Rock Tomb. It has access to Energy Ball to surprise water-types that switch into it, which is cool. However, Pursuit is a big threat.

Mega-Altaria is nice to use in general thanks to Heal Bell and makes a surprisingly good wall - I personally use her on my stall team. Her basic form has a double resistance to Bullet Seed and a resistance to Mach Punch, her Mega form is no longer weak to Rock Tomb while still resisting the former moves as well. Also, Hyper Voice demolishes Loom’s SubPunch strategy, and has reliable recovery with Roost. Not to mention, if basic-Altaria gets spored on the switch in, she can easily heal herself with Natural Cure.

Celebi is immune to Spore, resistant to both Loom’s STABs, and takes neutral damage from Rock Tomb. Psychic can OHKO our poor mushroom-cap, and it’s able to Leech Seed whatever Loom switches to for recovery and annoyance. It needs to watch for Pursuit, though.

Decidueye is a less common counter to Breloom. It is immune to Mach Punch, resists Bullet Seed and Rock Tomb, and is a trapper (which is always cool). It can recover with Roost and has access to U-Turn, which is helpful in switching while negating Pursuit’s extra damage. Oh, and Spore has no effect on it, too.

Volcanion takes only neutral damage from Bullet Seed, is faster, and able to hurt it with Fire Blast or Sludge Wave. It is also somewhat bulky and can survive a hit or two, and is a great Pokémon regardless of whether Breloom is involved.

Gliscor is a fantastic defensive Pokémon. Poison Heal makes it immune to Spore, it takes neutral damage from Bullet Seed and resists Mach Punch, it has access to Recovery, can cripple with Toxic, and is able to stall as much as it wants. It’s usually faster than Loom too, and Ice Fang makes getting rid of the mushroom pretty easy.

Heracross takes neutral damage to Breloom’s typical move set, and usually uses Guts + Flame Orb, making it a great switch in to Spore. It is faster than Mr Mushroom, and can OHKO with its Guts-enhances Attack, making it a pretty awesome counter. It also resists Pursuit.

Crobat is incredibly fast, resistant to both Loom’s STABs, but has to watch out for Rock Tomb. However, it is very easy for it to KO Breloom with the latter’s 4x weakness to Brave Bird. It’s a great switch in to replace a Spore-lure.

Doublade, while slower than Breloom, is immune to Mach Punch, resistant to Bullet Seed, and is bulky enough not to be scared off. However, pursuit is an issue. (Thx MewBby)

Anything else with a Fire/Flying/Poison/Fairy/Psychic/Ice move. Breloom is pretty frail and is easily 2HKO’d by even a basic coverage move. Even switching him in can be difficult, because it is so devastatingly weak to so, so much.


I, personally, like having Breloom in the metagame. I think he’s fun to use, but as someone who uses Togekiss and M-Altaria, I’ve never had any trouble against him.
He’s one of UU’s treasures in that he makes the game interesting - he has a niche, he makes you think out of the box, but so do many other Pokémon! And isn’t that what makes the game interesting in the first place?
Breloom only becomes dangerous if you let him boost.
.......But doesn’t that go for every offensive mon?
Don’t forget that he’s painfully slow; anyone who is faster and resistant to Mach Punch should have no problem dealing with this little guy - and remember that UU is very Fighting-resistant.

I really hope you vote not to ban this little guy. He’s powerful if used well, but he’s weak if countered well. In the end, he’s no scarier than Scizor is - and at least Scizor has a bit of bulk to him.
Good luck everyone. ^^

 

[KM]

It might be too late to sway any opinions, but as a UU player, I thought I’d share my thoughts.

I usually play one of two UU teams: A balanced team (that features Breloom) and a stall team (that does not).
I, in my experience using and countering Breloom, do not consider it nearly as scary as many of you. This is what I have found.

It seems the biggest issue is that people dislike Spore. Fair enough, it can be annoying, but I feel people forget all the ways to avoid it: Switch to a Grass type, switch to a Poison Healer, switch to an already-statused mon (extra points for a Flame Orb user), or use something with Natural Cure that can easily cure itself.
You argue that you spend the rest of the battle 6vs5, but why haven’t you considered a Heal Bell user? That’s not something that is used just to counter Breloom - if you’re so vulnerable to status, it also heals every other condition and can save you from multiple threats.
One of the best ways to deal with Spore is to allow Breloom to Spore a wall, switch in to a counter (preferably one that cannot be Pursuit-trapped), and scare him out. Breloom is rather frail, especially without Spore at his hands (since your slumbering wall will trigger the sleep clause if he tries), and usually succumbs to even a neutral 2HKO. If your wall is reliant, he’ll be able to take a hit or two while sleeping, wake up, recover (if he’s a good wall), and bam! Breloom accomplishes little to nothing.

You also speak as if every Breloom counter is sub-par, but I highly disagree. Let me name some:

Gengar is faster, immune to Mach Punch, resistant to Bullet Seed, and has super-effective STAB. (The downside is the Pursuit-vulnerability.)

Mega-Manectric is resistant to Bullet Seed, takes about 1/4 damage from Mach Punch, and PUNISHES with Overheat. Furthermore, its Electric type moves scare Mega-Aerodactyl, which is a common teammate.

Latias is already a great mon, is resistant to both of Breloom’s STABs, and has super-effective Psychic to KO him with. She also has a variety of coverage in her movepool that can be used to counter other threats, making her a great multi-tasker and Sp. Attacker. The downside is the vulnerability to Pursuit.

Togekiss is usually faster - especially using the popular Choice Scarf set - is doubly resistant to Mach Punch, resists Bullet Seed, MURDERS with Air Slash, and resists Pursuit. It is a great mon to use regardless of whether Breloom is on the opposing team, and a fantastic Breloom counter - you need to watch for Rock Tomb, but I haven’t found that to be a huge threat in much experience using her.

Chandelure is immune to Mach Punch, resists Bullet Seed, but needs to watch out for Rock Tomb. It has access to Energy Ball to surprise water-types that switch into it, which is cool. However, Pursuit is a big threat.

Mega-Altaria is nice to use in general thanks to Heal Bell and makes a surprisingly good wall - I personally use her on my stall team. Her basic form has a double resistance to Bullet Seed and a resistance to Mach Punch, her Mega form is no longer weak to Rock Tomb while still resisting the former moves as well. Also, Hyper Voice demolishes Loom’s SubPunch strategy, and has reliable recovery with Roost. Not to mention, if basic-Altaria gets spored on the switch in, she can easily heal herself with Natural Cure.

Celebi is immune to Spore, resistant to both Loom’s STABs, and takes neutral damage from Rock Tomb. Psychic can OHKO our poor mushroom-cap, and it’s able to Leech Seed whatever Loom switches to for recovery and annoyance. It needs to watch for Pursuit, though.

Decidueye is a less common counter to Breloom. It is immune to Mach Punch, resists Bullet Seed and Rock Tomb, and is a trapper (which is always cool). It can recover with Roost and has access to U-Turn, which is helpful in switching while negating Pursuit’s extra damage. Oh, and Spore has no effect on it, too.

Volcanion takes only neutral damage from Bullet Seed and Rock Tomb, is faster, and able to hurt it with Fire Blast or Sludge Wave. It is also somewhat bulky and can survive a hit or two, and is a great Pokémon regardless of whether Breloom is involved.

Gliscor is a fantastic defensive Pokémon. Poison Heal makes it immune to Spore, it takes neutral damage from Bullet Seed and resists Mach Punch, it has access to Recovery, can cripple with Toxic, and is able to stall as much as it wants. It’s usually faster than Loom too, and Ice Fang makes getting rid of the mushroom pretty easy.

Heracross takes neutral damage to Breloom’s typical move set, and usually uses Guts + Flame Orb, making it a great switch in to Spore. It is faster than Mr Mushroom, and can OHKO with its Guts-enhances Attack, making it a pretty awesome counter. It also resists Pursuit.

Crobat is incredibly fast, resistant to both Loom’s STABs, but has to watch out for Rock Tomb. However, it is very easy for it to KO Breloom with the latter’s 4x weakness to Brave Bird. It’s a great switch in to replace a Spore-lure.

Anything else with a Fire/Flying/Poison/Fairy/Psychic/Ice move. Breloom is pretty frail and is easily 2HKO’d by even a basic coverage move. Even switching him in can be difficult, because it is so devastatingly weak to so, so much.


I, personally, like having Breloom in the metagame. I think he’s fun to use, but as someone who uses Togekiss and M-Altaria, I’ve never had any trouble against him.
He’s one of UU’s treasures in that he makes the game interesting - he has a niche, he makes you think out of the box, but so do many other Pokémon! And isn’t that what makes the game interesting in the first place?
Breloom only becomes dangerous if you let him boost.
.......But doesn’t that go for every offensive mon?
Don’t forget that he’s painfully slow; anyone who is faster and resistant to Mach Punch should have no problem dealing with this little guy - and remember that UU is very Fighting-resistant.

I really hope you vote not to ban this little guy. He’s powerful if used well, but he’s weak if countered well. In the end, he’s no scarier than Scizor is - and at least Scizor has a bit of bulk to him.
Good luck everyone. ^^

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 225-267 (85.8 - 101.9%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 270-325 (89.4 - 107.6%) -- approx. 18.8% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manectric-Mega: 405-480 (144.1 - 170.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manectric-Mega: 129-153 (45.9 - 54.4%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 260-310 (69.5 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 270-325 (103.4 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 230-270 (79 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 250-295 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Decidueye: 315-375 (106 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 425-510 (141.1 - 169.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 420-495 (119.3 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 315-375 (104.6 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 388-458 (124.7 - 147.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

literally the common sets of every pokemon you mentioned can not safely switch on breloom. and please note that, with the exception of Crobat, all of these calcs are Bullet Seed + Mach, not Rock Tomb.

 

[Rabia]

It might be too late to sway any opinions, but as a UU player, I thought I’d share my thoughts.

I usually play one of two UU teams: A balanced team (that features Breloom) and a stall team (that does not).
I, in my experience using and countering Breloom, do not consider it nearly as scary as many of you. This is what I have found.

It seems the biggest issue is that people dislike Spore. Fair enough, it can be annoying, but I feel people forget all the ways to avoid it: Switch to a Grass type, switch to a Poison Healer, switch to an already-statused mon (extra points for a Flame Orb user), or use something with Natural Cure that can easily cure itself.
You argue that you spend the rest of the battle 6vs5, but why haven’t you considered a Heal Bell user? That’s not something that is used just to counter Breloom - if you’re so vulnerable to status, it also heals every other condition and can save you from multiple threats.
One of the best ways to deal with Spore is to allow Breloom to Spore a wall, switch in to a counter (preferably one that cannot be Pursuit-trapped), and scare him out. Breloom is rather frail, especially without Spore at his hands (since your slumbering wall will trigger the sleep clause if he tries), and usually succumbs to even a neutral 2HKO. If your wall is reliant, he’ll be able to take a hit or two while sleeping, wake up, recover (if he’s a good wall), and bam! Breloom accomplishes little to nothing.

You also speak as if every Breloom counter is sub-par, but I highly disagree. Let me name some:

Gengar is faster, immune to Mach Punch, resistant to Bullet Seed, and has super-effective STAB. (The downside is the Pursuit-vulnerability.)

Mega-Manectric is resistant to Bullet Seed, takes about 1/4 damage from Mach Punch, and PUNISHES with Overheat. Furthermore, its Electric type moves scare Mega-Aerodactyl, which is a common teammate.

Latias is already a great mon, is resistant to both of Breloom’s STABs, and has super-effective Psychic to KO him with. She also has a variety of coverage in her movepool that can be used to counter other threats, making her a great multi-tasker and Sp. Attacker. The downside is the vulnerability to Pursuit.

Togekiss is usually faster - especially using the popular Choice Scarf set - is doubly resistant to Mach Punch, resists Bullet Seed, MURDERS with Air Slash, and resists Pursuit. It is a great mon to use regardless of whether Breloom is on the opposing team, and a fantastic Breloom counter - you need to watch for Rock Tomb, but I haven’t found that to be a huge threat in much experience using her.

Chandelure is immune to Mach Punch, resists Bullet Seed, but needs to watch out for Rock Tomb. It has access to Energy Ball to surprise water-types that switch into it, which is cool. However, Pursuit is a big threat.

Mega-Altaria is nice to use in general thanks to Heal Bell and makes a surprisingly good wall - I personally use her on my stall team. Her basic form has a double resistance to Bullet Seed and a resistance to Mach Punch, her Mega form is no longer weak to Rock Tomb while still resisting the former moves as well. Also, Hyper Voice demolishes Loom’s SubPunch strategy, and has reliable recovery with Roost. Not to mention, if basic-Altaria gets spored on the switch in, she can easily heal herself with Natural Cure.

Celebi is immune to Spore, resistant to both Loom’s STABs, and takes neutral damage from Rock Tomb. Psychic can OHKO our poor mushroom-cap, and it’s able to Leech Seed whatever Loom switches to for recovery and annoyance. It needs to watch for Pursuit, though.

Decidueye is a less common counter to Breloom. It is immune to Mach Punch, resists Bullet Seed and Rock Tomb, and is a trapper (which is always cool). It can recover with Roost and has access to U-Turn, which is helpful in switching while negating Pursuit’s extra damage. Oh, and Spore has no effect on it, too.

Volcanion takes only neutral damage from Bullet Seed and Rock Tomb, is faster, and able to hurt it with Fire Blast or Sludge Wave. It is also somewhat bulky and can survive a hit or two, and is a great Pokémon regardless of whether Breloom is involved.

Gliscor is a fantastic defensive Pokémon. Poison Heal makes it immune to Spore, it takes neutral damage from Bullet Seed and resists Mach Punch, it has access to Recovery, can cripple with Toxic, and is able to stall as much as it wants. It’s usually faster than Loom too, and Ice Fang makes getting rid of the mushroom pretty easy.

Heracross takes neutral damage to Breloom’s typical move set, and usually uses Guts + Flame Orb, making it a great switch in to Spore. It is faster than Mr Mushroom, and can OHKO with its Guts-enhances Attack, making it a pretty awesome counter. It also resists Pursuit.

Crobat is incredibly fast, resistant to both Loom’s STABs, but has to watch out for Rock Tomb. However, it is very easy for it to KO Breloom with the latter’s 4x weakness to Brave Bird. It’s a great switch in to replace a Spore-lure.

Anything else with a Fire/Flying/Poison/Fairy/Psychic/Ice move. Breloom is pretty frail and is easily 2HKO’d by even a basic coverage move. Even switching him in can be difficult, because it is so devastatingly weak to so, so much.


I, personally, like having Breloom in the metagame. I think he’s fun to use, but as someone who uses Togekiss and M-Altaria, I’ve never had any trouble against him.
He’s one of UU’s treasures in that he makes the game interesting - he has a niche, he makes you think out of the box, but so do many other Pokémon! And isn’t that what makes the game interesting in the first place?
Breloom only becomes dangerous if you let him boost.
.......But doesn’t that go for every offensive mon?
Don’t forget that he’s painfully slow; anyone who is faster and resistant to Mach Punch should have no problem dealing with this little guy - and remember that UU is very Fighting-resistant.

I really hope you vote not to ban this little guy. He’s powerful if used well, but he’s weak if countered well. In the end, he’s no scarier than Scizor is - and at least Scizor has a bit of bulk to him.
Good luck everyone. ^^

not going to give any opinion about breloom but most of what you listed either loses to rock tomb loom, or was just incorrect; mega mane definitely does not resist bullet seed, volcanion doesn't resist rock tomb, or gets bopped by good bullet seed rolls (obviously that's luck reliant, but point is most loom answers are reliant on bad luck for the loom user). you also made no note of doublade which is surprising given it's probably the tier's best consistent answer to loom.

if I had to say anything real productive Loom is surprisingly versatile with lure sets like natural gift ganlon berry or shit like choice band running around to bop things on the switch real well; most supposed switch-ins just die to Bullet Seed with like 2-3 rolls being all that's needed (Stealth Rock generally makes 3 hits 2 hits for Pokemon like Lati and Chandy). so yeah the note here is most checks can't switch in for shit and are reliant on either getting a safe switch in or making the right prediction on what loom will use, which again really just doesn't matter because of bullet seed nuking stuff

 

[AriaoftheStars]

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 225-267 (85.8 - 101.9%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 270-325 (89.4 - 107.6%) -- approx. 18.8% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manectric-Mega: 405-480 (144.1 - 170.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manectric-Mega: 129-153 (45.9 - 54.4%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 260-310 (69.5 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 270-325 (103.4 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 230-270 (79 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 250-295 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Decidueye: 315-375 (106 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 425-510 (141.1 - 169.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 420-495 (119.3 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 315-375 (104.6 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 388-458 (124.7 - 147.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

literally the common sets of every pokemon you mentioned can not safely switch on breloom. and please note that, with the exception of Crobat, all of these calcs are Bullet Seed + Mach, not Rock Tomb.

But also most of these require that Bullet Seed hit 5 times, which happens... what was it, 12% of the time? On average, it hits 3. That gives these mons a chance to hit back, and, given that they are faster, a chance to 2HKO - if they don't OHKO.
For example, Togekiss. Let's say you start a battle with Togekiss vs. Breloom - Togekiss is faster, and would get to move first.

252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 1360-1608 (1000 - 1182.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yeah. That's what I thought.

 

[AriaoftheStars]

not going to give any opinion about breloom but most of what you listed either loses to rock tomb loom, or was just incorrect; mega mane definitely does not resist bullet seed, volcanion doesn't resist rock tomb, or gets bopped by good bullet seed rolls (obviously that's luck reliant, but point is most loom answers are reliant on bad luck for the loom user). you also made no note of doublade which is surprising given it's probably the tier's best consistent answer to loom.

if I had to say anything real productive Loom is surprisingly versatile with lure sets like natural gift ganlon berry or shit like choice band running around to bop things on the switch real well; most supposed switch-ins just die to Bullet Seed with like 2-3 rolls being all that's needed (Stealth Rock generally makes 3 hits 2 hits for Pokemon like Lati and Chandy). so yeah the note here is most checks can't switch in for shit and are reliant on either getting a safe switch in or making the right prediction on what loom will use, which again really just doesn't matter because of bullet seed nuking stuff

Ahh, pardon if I was incorrect about some things, I typed it out while I was without internet and didn't get to fact check. I confused Electric resisting Grass with, the correct version, Grass resisting Electric. My bad, I'm sorry.

I'm obviously no expert, but the point stands: I've personally never had any problem with Breloom, and I truly do think there are ways to counter him. But I've already said what I wanted to say.

EDIT: Thanks for pointing those mistakes out to me, I tried to go back and fix them.

 

[Yifeng]

But also most of these require that Bullet Seed hit 5 times, which happens... what was it, 12% of the time? On average, it hits 3. That gives these mons a chance to hit back, and, given that they are faster, a chance to 2HKO - if they don't OHKO.

16.67% chance to get 5 hits. Bullet Seed averages 3.17 hits (quick maths (1/3)*2+(1/3)*3+(1/6)*4+(1/6)*5), which gives it an average power of 118.75BP with absolutely no drawbacks. Having a 16.67% chance of it just muscling through its "checks" is what makes it fucking broken (or 33.33% if you are switching in something less bulky like Heracross or Chandelure). Also keep in mind a good number of "checks" are rocks weak, so it doesn't even necessarily need the 5 hits.

For example, Togekiss. Let's say you start a battle with Togekiss vs. Breloom - Togekiss is faster, and would get to move first.

252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 1360-1608 (1000 - 1182.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yeah. That's what I thought.

Yes, Togekiss has a base speed of 80, which is a bigger number than 60. Yes, Flying type moves are 4x effective against Grass/Fighting types.

 

[Modulo]

I'm not gonna get reqs for the suspect, but throwing this out there:

25% chance to get 5 hits (or any other number of hits for that matter in case you didn't know). Bullet Seed averages 3.5 hits (quick maths - (2+3+4+5)/4), which gives it an average power of 131.5BP with absolutely no drawbacks. .

This is actually wrong. According to Bulbapedia, the probabilities on Bullet Seed (since gen 5) are:
2 hits: 1/3 chance (33,33...%)
3 hits: 1/3 chance (33,33...%)
4 hits: 1/6 chance (16,66...%)
5 hits: 1/6 chance (16,66...%)
Which means Bullet Seed averages 3,1666... hits; averaging slightly below 120 BP after Technician.

I also want to note that Bullet Seed cannot be seen as a 120 BP STAB move with no drawback; the variance the move has is the drawback. If you need 3 hits, Bullet Seed has a 66,66...% chance to provide that; which is less than the accuracy of Focus Blast. If you need 4 or 5 hits, it's comparable to the OHKO moves. Of course the failcase is a lot better (since you still deal according damage), but it's not a reliable high base power move.


That doesn't mean I'm opposed to a Breloom ban. If KittenMilk's calcs show anything, it's that Bullet Seed can kill many would-be counters. So in a sense, Breloom's Bullet Seed is much like a version of OHKO moves; and there's a reason the OHKO clause is in effect. Is Sheer Cold a broken move? No, but it's very uncompetitive; and Breloom has that flair to it; which is what would probably push me over the edge to ban Breloom.

 

[Yifeng]

I'm not gonna get reqs for the suspect, but throwing this out there:



This is actually wrong. According to Bulbapedia, the probabilities on Bullet Seed (since gen 5) are:
2 hits: 1/3 chance (33,33...%)
3 hits: 1/3 chance (33,33...%)
4 hits: 1/6 chance (16,66...%)
5 hits: 1/6 chance (16,66...%)
Which means Bullet Seed averages 3,1666... hits; averaging slightly below 120 BP after Technician.

I also want to note that Bullet Seed cannot be seen as a 120 BP STAB move with no drawback; the variance the move has is the drawback. If you need 3 hits, Bullet Seed has a 66,66...% chance to provide that; which is less than the accuracy of Focus Blast. If you need 4 or 5 hits, it's comparable to the OHKO moves. Of course the failcase is a lot better (since you still deal according damage), but it's not a reliable high base power move.


That doesn't mean I'm opposed to a Breloom ban. If KittenMilk's calcs show anything, it's that Bullet Seed can kill many would-be counters. So in a sense, Breloom's Bullet Seed is much like a version of OHKO moves; and there's a reason the OHKO clause is in effect. Is Sheer Cold a broken move? No, but it's very uncompetitive; and Breloom has that flair to it; which is what would probably push me over the edge to ban Breloom.

Oh that's awkward, always thought that each number hit had the same % chance of occurring. I've edited my previous post to correct this.

That being said, Breloom still has a good chance to get that 4-5 hits to mow down its checks.

You bring up a good point, but comparing the variance of the number of hits against the accuracy of a move is a flawed analogy. If you miss a move, the damage output is 0. Whereas if you get a low roll with bullet seed, like you've said, you're still guaranteed 75BP of damage, which is decent in itself (just slightly weaker than moves like Dark Pulse, Aura Sphere and Extremespeed to put it into perspective). The average power output of moves without 100% accuracy would simply be % chance of hitting multiplied by the base power. This is obviously not the case for OHKO moves since infinity is more of a concept than an actual number that you could manipulate. So I don't think the variance should be considered a drawback, but more so like a "bonus", similar to secondary effects of some moves - a 75BP move, with a 66.66% chance of an additional damage multiplier taking effect (33.33% for 1.5x damage, 16.67% for 2x damage and 16.67% for 2.5x damage, respectively).

 

[Smallsmallrose]

So because of work I didn't have time to get reqs but I just wanted to throw in my 5 cents on Breloom.
While Breloom is far from outright BROKEN, and I do think people mix it up with the real reason its not good for the tier, it is a bit UNCOMPETITIVE for a number of reasons.
1. its ability to mix and match its sets
I'm not going to bring up Ganlon here, no worries. Though I will note that Ganlon and Breakneck Blitz etc. etc. are examples of how it can be a lottery seeing Breloom at team preview. Even if its just bog standard technician, whether it does/doesn't have SD, whether it has grass stab and/or rock tomb, whether its stallbreaker, etc. can all be major factors in how you play around it. Scouting on a mon that can so easily take a kill or put a teammate to bed is an actual nightmare. And while some checks stay consistent, others lose to it clicking the right move at the right time.
2.RNGesus
While we can talk about the practicality of Bullet seed hitting 5 times back and forth all day, Breloom can make certain mons it's plaything with the right RNG even beyond cheesy Bullet seed rolls.. High Sleep counters on mons who would normally eat Breloom for breakfast can cause some sticky situations. Doublade and Mega Altaria, who would normally be considered sturdy counters, could get messed up if they get a 4-5 turn nap. This reduces the number of true counters Breloom has. As Breloom could get immensely lucky with sleep counters in addition to rolls. Or hell, even a LOW sleep roll could mess up a check/counter in the sense that an early wake-up when clicking sleep talk gives the Loom player a free turn.
3. Constraints on teambuilding.
I think this is the major reason everyone wants this thing banned in the first place. This current Meta is garbage to build in because of how Breloom forces players to build. They either need a super dedicated answer and/or several soft answers while still handling the rest of the meta. This often forces the use of mons like Chandelure and Moltres because those mons handle other prominent members of the meta like Scizor and Serp while still soft checking Breloom. In a meta where you have to build for CM Lati, SD Gliscor, Scizor in general, flying resists, electric immunities, etc. etc. Its really really hard to squeeze in a mon that can adequately handle Breloom. A lot of my teams lately have been looking super same-y because of how hard it is to branch out without making myself weak to Breloom or one of its common teammates. I'd argue that Scizor/Loom is the true culprit here since building around two absurdly strong priority spammers is garbage in this meta but I digress. I feel like Breloom kills creativity and makes UU, which in my opinion is one of the more diverse tiers of USUM, a lot less diverse. It forces a tightly packed meta where several mons on your team are likely compressing 2-3 roles at once, and even then your soft checks may still lose to it despite how hard you tried to build around beating it while NOT having a garbage matchup vs everything else. I think the major thing is, this problem may not even be from Breloom ALONE and that's why people don't see it as broken or unfair. But Breloom is definitely the pioneer of this super compressed teambuilding, and one of the major problems when trying to build teams in the current meta.