np: USUM UU Stage 7 - Too Good At Goodbyes (Azumarill banned, Breloom and Serperior remain UU)

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#1


Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. As you all probably know already, a big batch of tier shifts occurred recently. While those didn't affect UU as deeply as any of the other lower tiers, we still got hit fairly hard by losing one of tier's best defensive Pokemon in Amoonguss. Aside from that, nothing else was earned nor lost. However, many members of our community have rightfully expressed concern towards this Pokemon's departure, since it was one of the very few viable answers to Azumarill and Breloom, among other threatening Pokemon. There's also the fact that, due to the way the UU tournament circuit functions, it is basically impossible to sustain a public suspect test to either Pokemon at the moment (as I've already mentioned in my last post in the last thread), since it would interfere with both the UU ladder tournament and UUPL.

With that said, and after discussing this thoroughly with my co-leader, we came to the conclusion that immediately banishing either Pokemon with little evidence of them being blatantly overpowered would be a rash move that could have grave repercussions to the UU tier, even if most of the proof we've collected up until now points towards these Pokemon being close to impossible to handle without Amoonguss around. Therefore, we're using this upcoming week (and the SM UU games from UUPL and the ladder that come with it) as a way of trialing these Pokemon in a metagame without Amoonguss. Afterwards, a council vote will be held for the Pokemon that are deemed troublesome. If necessary, they'll then be publicly (re)tested down the road whenever there are no obstacles to the process.

Feel free to use this thread to share your thoughts on anything related to the current SM UU metagame, including opinions regarding potentially broken Pokemon, underrated Pokemon, alternatives to Amoonguss now that it has moved up and all other sorts of things that come to your mind. Happy posting!

 
#4
Apparently nothing is broken. I could remember when people were arguing to keep M-Latias in UU(M-Gardevoir as well). With Azumarill's suspect, players will also ridiculously argue to keep it as well. Breloom has to go as well, it destroys all of it's "counter's" between spore,swords dance,priority, and Z-moves. The only real counter to it is doublade, which has no recovery, and spore puts it to sleep. Of course, those two are the first priorities to get rid of. But how can UU keep so many unhealthy other pokemon swept under the rug? Latias, Scizor and Malt. Klefki is questionable as well. Latias can run specs, scarf, Z-Thunder,Z-Surf,BoltBeam variants, Life Orb,Z-Draco,Healing Wish and more. What "stops" Latias? The other 3 pokemon which could also be considered broken. Broken checks broken. If even one of these pokemon leaves the tier, the other 3 have to follow. That's why they're kept in one neat, unhealthy package. Z variants can blow through checks such as Empoleon, Metagross, Scizor, Aggron-M and Klefki. Also remember that all of these listed above can be crippled or trapped by Magneton. Scizor has many checks, but depending on the set it can get past all of them, (Bar Arcanine of course, the most viable pokemon in the tier). SD sets are stopped by Quagsire, but if hit with a powerful enough Z move,(Buginium Z followed by superpower) it falls as well. Essentialy all counters can be destroyed this way(Mantine,+2 knock off,Aggron-M,+2 AOP etc). It has ridiculous priority to crush frail fast/steel week threats, of which UU has a surprisingy massive amount(M-Sceptile,M-Beedrill,Crobat,M-Aerodactyl,Togekiss,Gengar,Nihilego,Heracross,Nidoking,Too many really). It even takes 66~ percent off bulky pokemon such as Hydreigon. Malt 2hkos crobat after a DD, and outspeeds, while it can survive a non crit cross poison coming off of that sad 90 base attack stat. M-Aggron can stop it, but it has no recovery, can be crippled by Specs-Magneton, and hurts from fire blasts. Malt also has cotton gaurd and facade to pull of some really messed up sweeps. Finally, Klefki has a priority T-Wave to stop sweepers in their tracks, which does not reward players for diligently setting up the conditions to sweep, only to be stopped by something they can never escape.You could have used SD to max and agility, and Klefki will still stop you. Not only that, but you can't stop it from stacking without magic bounce, which users need hp fire to hit Scizor with, and are frail. You need to keep defogging and keep spinning as you switch into hazards. It can also set up screens, use magnet rise, foul play etc. Alongside M-Shark it becomes very serious. Hard to predict, and hard to play around, yet it is supposed to be a wall, not a threat. In conclusion, I want you guys to seriously ponder how healthy these pokemon are for the future of the UU tier, and consider their effects as you use them and play against them.
 
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#5
I want to give my thoughts on Azumarill in this post, because the recent departure of Amoonguss has left the tier in a shell-shocked state. Amoonguss’ ability to pivot into massive threats such as Breloom, Serperior, and even stuff like Choice Scarf Latias if full or Choice Band Scizor, but the biggest one was Azumarill. Even with Amoonguss, it was very borderline. Without, however, I fully believe that it is unhealthy for the tier, and I’ll tell you why.

To preface this, let’s talk about Azumarill’s typing, stats, and ability. Huge Power doubles its attack stat, getting it to 436 without a Choice Band, and 654 with a Choice Band. This alone would make Azumarill a threat. However, with a Fairy-type and sizable 100/80/80 bulk, Azumarill is extremely hard to kill from full and can take hits such as Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge, Choice Band Scizor’s Bullet Punch, and Latias’ Psychic pretty readily from full and OHKO back. These aspects are the center of how easy it is to fit onto teams, and how easily it can come in on a defensive Pokemon such as Swampert and throw a hit off or setup or trap something. I wanted to say something about these parts of Azumarill before talking about the actual sets and their effects themselves.

First, the lesser of the three sets, Belly Drum, while manageable, still has some problematic aspects. The foremost being that defensively, there is very little counterplay out side of Quagsire/Pyukumuku, who are entirely restricted to stall and nothing else, or Mega Aggron, who takes about half from +6 Play Rough but has no recovery and can be easily chipped into range. This alone makes it tough for teams to handle. Secondly, it’s bulky enough to take certain hits such as Scarf Latias Psychic or Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch if Sitrus, and KO back. Offensively, it pressures you into keeping your offensive Water resist healthy the #1 priority, which oft can be hard to do, especially with Rocks/chip from taking other hits. If you don’t do this, however, a +6 Azumarill becomes a nightmare to handle if let setup. While I do acknowledge that if is a big IF, seeing as it can be readily offensively pressured by the likes of Serperior/Breloom etc, but it requires getting the double correctly, which is a 50/50, and a sign that it is at least somewhat of an issue, and shouldn’t be dismissed when talking about Azumarill, even if it’s less consistent than the other sets.

Next, with the release of Virtual Console for GSC, Azumarill has gained legal access to both Whirlpool and Perish Song, as well as its hidden ability, Sap Sipper. This makes it able to get around typical Azumarill checks, such as Breloom or Latias, as well as lessening the even still little defensive counterplay that there is to Azumarill. Being able to trap bulky Pokemon such as Alomomola, Mega Aggron, or even offensive ones like the aforementioned Breloom or non-Substitute Serperior sets, is a boon for offense and stall alike, baiting in threats, only for them to be quickly disposed of with little repercussion. Azumarill’s good bulk and typing make it harder to deal with. From full, it can bluff the other sets such as CB or BD, but then trap the switch-in, and remove it, provide it isn’t something like Poisonium-Z Tentacruel, for example. An example of the effect Trapper Azu has on the meta is exemplified by the recent running of Shed Shell on Alomomola, as opposed to Leftovers/Rocky Helmet, which without Azu in the tier, are infinitely better. The running of a suboptimal item to counter this one set but weaken its matchup against other threats like Scizor, Choice Band Infernape, etc, is the consequence of the unhealthy presence of Azumarill in the tier, and something like this is a textbook characteristic of a Pokémon that doesn’t belong in the tier.

Finally, we get to the crème de la crème of Azumarill sets: Choice Band. Choice Band Azumarill is simultaneously the most effective set and the most splashable one, getting on most offensive builds because of its ability to break down common defensive cores such as Gliscor/Tentacruel or Sylveon/Mega Aggron. Choice Band Azumarill has very few “safe” switchins, Mega Aggron and Mega Slowbro being able to take hits the best. However, Mega Slowbro is forced to recover thereafter, and in the case of Mega Aggron, has no recovery whatsoever. There are softer checks such as Tentacruel and Volcanion, but those are heavily chipped by Play Rough and cannot switch in reliably more than once or twice if rocks are up. Azumarill also picks off frailer Pokemon or Water-weak Pokemon with Aqua Jet, making it extremely threatening to offensive builds as well as defensive ones, serving as a potent revenge killer. Its dual STAB combination of Water/Fairy, as well as utility options in Knock Off, Ice Punch, Superpower, and even Return leave teams in a precarious 50/50 every time it is in. It has the typing/bulk to take on prominent threats such as Latias and Mega Sharpedo from full, and on average gets a kill per game if played correctly in my experience. The ability to force constant 50/50s with its STABs and coverage during play is the most unhealthy factor about Azumarill. It has unparalleled power and ability to threaten teams, and the sheer thought of running an otherwise generally unviable mon such as Vileplume or the fact that joke suggestions such as Foonguss have been taken seriously by a prominent player such as Freeroamer, is honestly more scary of an impact than Breloom or Serperior (other Pokemon potentially suspect-worthy mons in the wake of Amoonguss going to OU) could ever bring to the table.

In conclusion, Azumarill deserves to be banned. The sheer amount of versatility between those three sets (Sitrus BD, Perish Trapper, Choice Band) is frankly too much for the tier. This post doesn’t even mention other viable sets such as Assault Vest or Z-Belly Drum who also have a place in the tier, albeit a limited at that, but still are viable sets. Azumarill has constricted the tier in a way to where the playerbase is desperate for concrete answers in a post-Amoonguss metagame. If kept, the tier would detriment and as such, Azumarill should be banned. Thanks for reading, and have a wonderful day.
 
#6
And welcome to UU ladies and gentleman. We lose one of our few answers to the monsters named Azumaril and Breloom.

Now that Amoon is gone, we seriously should keep an eye on these two. Azumaril is problematic threat due to it’s amazing Water/Fairy typing, access to two good abilities in Huge Power and Sap Sipper, one which doubles it’s attack stat, the latter in which helps it against bulky fat mons and grass-types that can cause somewhat of a problem to it’s job. And on the other hand, you have Breloom, who although is lacking in speed, has a huge attack stat and access to priority and Spore which makes a very huge problem to teams unprepared for it’s fury. These two mons were already a pain in the ass for the tier enough, but with their one answer now moved to OU, they will run amuck.
 
#7
Hello, I would like to give my thoughts on Azumarill.

This mon is completely broken. We all know about the broken CB set, which only has two switch ins in the tier (Vileplume and Venusaur are rather niche and passive, and Tenta gets 2HKOed by Play Rough/Knock Off after rocks). CB puts immense pressure on teambuilding and teams in general. Not only this, but CB is very splashable. I haven't thought of a time I haven't said to myself "Hmm, you know what this team is missing? An Azu!" Not only this, but Water/Fairy is an amazing typing, capable of checking things like Hydreigon, Infernape, etc. CB Azu is the main problem, and just too splashable and versatile to even be in this tier imo.

When people talk about Azu being broken, for some reason I never hear people talk about Perish Trap. Perish Trap is just as bad as CB, walling or soft checking half the tier and trapping them with ease. It's very simple to simply bluff CB and trap bulkier Pokemon that can't do much to it like Alomomola, or just trap things it walls like Serperior. Its bulk is also nothing to scoff at either. Stall has had to run things like Shed Shell Alomomola to deal with Perish Trap Azumarill over Leftovers/Rocky Helmet. The fact a mon is running an item just to counter one set but either remove passive recovery or passive damage is saying something about Perish Azu's unhealthy effects on the tier.

As for BD, this is easily the lesser of the sets, however it still has some problems. Defensively, as faded said, there is very little counterplay aside from things like Quag/Pyuku which only fit on stall. Mega Aggron is also another viable form of counterplay, however it has no recovery and can find itself getting chipped easily. It can pressure you into putting your Water resist healthy, which can be hard to do with Rocks and chip from switching into other mons. Again I never hear about BD being talked about, which is honestly surprising because although this is the least unhealthy of the sets, it should definitely be looked at and not ignored.

Final Statement: AWAY WITH THE WATER RABBIT
 
#9
Is Diggersby more threatening than Azumarill in terms of sheer wallbreaking??
In terms of sheer wallbreaking, I would say so. Normal/Ground is surprisingly difficult to switch into, it's STABs (Return/Earthquake/Quick Attack) generally hit harder than Azumarill's (Play Rough/Liquidation/Aqua Jet) in terms of base power, and the fact that it actually has a speed stat means that it can outspeed a lot more of the metagame than Azumarill can. Off the top of my head, I can't name a single 'mon in UU currently that isn't at least 2HKOd by Diggersby. Of course, Azumarill is probably a better late-game cleaner/stallbreaker thanks to Belly Drum and it's very, very serviceable bulk, but as a pure CB-style wallbreaker I would favour Diggersby over Azumarill. Probably why it's not in UU lol

Now that I'm here, I wanted to quickly throw my opinion in to the ring concerning Azumarill. I personally think it's absolutely broken, since there's nothing in the tier right now that can ever switch into the choice banded set outside of... defensive Z-Haze Tentacruel, and even then it has to give up one of Rapid Spin/Toxic Spikes/Scald in order to fit Sludge Wave onto its movepool so it can actually threaten the rabbit. Others have said it before as well, but I personally think the main reason this thing is so problematic is that it
a) can bluff any of its three sets and lure for itself, and
b) has the bulk and typing to be relatively difficult to revenge kill

I think more than anything the fact that all three of its sets do different things very, very effectively is what makes it so difficult to check. For example, say that the matchup is a Hippowdown vs an Azumarill or something, and let's just say for argument's sake that the Azumarill revenger is, idk, a Breloom at half health. This situation itself is a 50/50, since if you stay in on Azumarill and Earthquake to deny the Belly Drum and the Azumarill turns out to be Choice Banded, well, you just lost your Hippowdown. At the same time, if you go Breloom expecting a Belly Drum and it turns out to be Choice Banded, well, Breloom just died. Of course, Breloom isn't likely going to be your only Azumarill answer, but the point stands that there's two plays here that result in the "good" result and two plays that result in the "bad" result. Just by the fact that Azumarill has the potential to be Belly Drum OR Choice Banded, it forced a 50/50 for itself.

More problematically, however, is the fact that the BD/CB sets can lure in the exact stuff that the PerishTrap set aims to counter. Alomomola is probably the best example, with it being a relatively safe switch-in to Azumarill normally but gets absolutely obliterated by Whirlpool+Perish Song, and like others have said the fact that Alomomola is now forced to run Shed Shell on stall teams simply to avoid losing to one specific set on one 'mon speaks to the insane power level of Azumarill right now.
Overall, the fact that we had stuff like z-move Amoonguss floating around before it left for OU really speaks to how difficult it was to check Azumarill. There is no 'mon in the tier that punishes free turns or one mistake as hard as it does. I personally think it's broken and absolutely overcentralizing in the metagame, and from what I've heard on the ladder/in this thread it seems like many people agree with me. Just my two cents, however.
 
#10
I'm not the sort to substitute length for content, so I'll try and keep this brief.

Losing Amoonguss has for sure made Breloom and Azumarill more threatening. I don't normally run the Mushroom, but the sudden rise in usage means people are running more niche mons to stop them which makes teams more vulnerable. Are they truly broken? Not sure yet. In my experience, they stay the same level of threatening, but the meta shifting towards a more favorable setting means teams can be optimized for these two specific mons.

Paradoxically, I wanna say, this shift has made Suicune actually worse, at least in my books. Amoonguss was setup bait for Vincune. Now other grass types with more offensive prowess and things that can hit it harder without risking being slept / sludged on have a chance in the limelight. Usually able to stop Cune better too.

Overall, this is a pretty big buff to Azu and Breloom, especially since they don't have the need for niche coverage options like Ganlon Berry to hit one mon. Gonna be interesting to watch UUPL adapt here.

p.s.: somebody let me choose the music next np thread I feel like I'm back in high school listening to these
 

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#11


The loss of Amoonguss is definitively a pain for Underused.
Since arriving in UU, Azumarill has shown that it's one of the best Pokemon in the tier, so offensively as defensively. Thanks to it's typing, it can check Pokemon like Hydreigon, Crawdaunt or Infernape while being probably the best Wallbreaker + Stallbreaker of the tier (with Choice Band and Perish Trap). I feel that the rise of Amoonguss has open a huge door for Azumarill, making it even better. This Pokemon is without a doubt in my opinion, the best Pokemon in the tier and it's not healthy at all atm.

Some people highlighted the versatility of Azumarill which is a huge problem. At the team preview, you can not assure what kind of Azumarill you're facing and that's a huge problem because Azumarill is perfect in each of its roles. If you think during a whole game that the Azumarill in front of you is Choice Band and in the end game, you do realize that it was a (Z-)Belly Drum, you're screwed. In my opinion, Azumarill makes too much 50/50 thanks to its versatility. You can not send Alomomola (if you're not Shed Shell) if you didn't scout the set of Azumarill because if this Azumarill is a Perish Trap then you basically lose your Pokemon. Speaking of Shed Shell, it's dumb how Stall have to run this shitty item if they don't want to auto-lose to Perish trap Azumarill, it's like in OU when people have to run Shed Shell Toxapex if they didn't want to lost to Dug + Filler.
It's not like Scizor, Gliscor or Latias which have recurring checks. In my opinion, the council should trully look at the unhealthy side of Azumarill in Underused, it's not normal that UU players have to play some dedicated item / Pokemon to deal with only one Pokemon in the tier.
 

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#13
Is Assault Vest Azumarill still a thing cause I know in Gen 6 it was a popular set in ORAS OU, heck, even Wally's Azumarill was the Assault Vest set LOL
AV Azu is an amazing set that everyone should try at least once. It's just as broken as the other sets and actually takes on more offensive threats one-on-one than any other Azu set. It won't wallbreak or sweep as well as the banded or BD sets respectively, but it serves as an incredible early-game sponge, early-mid game offensive threat, and a late game cleaner. As a few examples, Z-Poison Hydrei cannot OHKO. Serperior cannot OHKO. Z-Thunder Latias cannot OHKO. AV Azumarill can take care of all of them, and more.

Here's the set that I'm using:

Azumarill @ Assault Vest
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off

The speed is for defensive pert, as Knock off on the switch in + 2 Play Roughs will take it out, and in most cases they'll SR before Scalding. The last two slots are interchangeable. Liquidation and Superpower can both be used to tackle specific threats. Ice punch admittedly was for a more Amoonguss based meta.
 
#14
I dont get something if azumarill/breloom and serperior really are that broken, then why were they allowed in the tier in the first place, were they just allowed because literally one pokemon (amoongus) countered it? That seems like a bad reason to drop any mon

Does that mean if azu/loom ends up being banned then amoonguss fulls to uu again youll resuspect test them because their answer is back? I dont get the unbanning precedent, why vote to unban mon then decide to want to ban them in like a few months again
 
#15
I dont get something if azumarill/breloom and serperior really are that broken, then why were they allowed in the tier in the first place, were they just allowed because literally one pokemon (amoongus) countered it? That seems like a bad reason to drop any mon

Does that mean if azu/loom ends up being banned then amoonguss fulls to uu again youll resuspect test them because their answer is back? I dont get the unbanning precedent, why vote to unban mon then decide to want to ban them in like a few months again
Amoonguss has been getting increased usage in OU lately. Probably it won't fall back down to UU anytime soon. And the reason why they were allowed in the tier is because the meta was different before, and now things changed to where you need Amoonguss to counteract these 3 Pokémon
 

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#16
I dont get something if azumarill/breloom and serperior really are that broken, then why were they allowed in the tier in the first place, were they just allowed because literally one pokemon (amoongus) countered it? That seems like a bad reason to drop any mon

Does that mean if azu/loom ends up being banned then amoonguss fulls to uu again youll resuspect test them because their answer is back? I dont get the unbanning precedent, why vote to unban mon then decide to want to ban them in like a few months again
Smogon tiering is based on Usage, so when mons in OU fall under a 3.4% usage rate (seeing them less than 1 in 20 games when clicking randomly on mid-high ladder), we receive them. During the time that we received the aforementioned threats, they were held in check. If Amoonguss comes back, the council may very well choose to attempt to re-introduce Azu and Breloom. The reason we vote to unban a mon then decide to want to ban them in a few months is because the metagame is constantly evolving and changing, and tiering decisions need to reflect the evolution of the tier's development.

You can read more about smogon tiering here. You can read more about the early stages of SM UU tiering here.
 
#17
Breloom? Uh anybody? Is Azumarill really that much worse? But seriously, most players went out of their way to condemn Azumarill, while not saying a word about Breloom. Azumarill is the elephant in the room, and it almost seems like people are afraid to voice their concerns over Breloom, for fear of those kind of people who said M Lati and M Gardevoir weren't broken.
1523997480265.png


Breloom @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Rock Tomb
- Swords Dance
1523997480265.png

Breloom @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Tomb
1523997480265.png

Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Seed Bomb
- Facade

Edit: The Scizor Dilemma
Ever since Scizor entered the tier, there has been players who heavily supported a ban. Many checks, one counter. The dilemma that has delayed its suspect is the massive effect Scizor has on this tier. It has the tier wrapped around its pincer. If we ban Scizor, Malt will become pretty broken, only stopped by Aggron-M. If we ban Malt, then Latias becomes broken, only stopped by nothing. If we ban Latias, then the tier should stabilize, although balance and offense will have lost their best defensive pokemon which could brave the forces of Manectric-M, Nidoking, Infernape, Volcanion and Gliscor. Where this will end up, I don't know. But to take the first step would be to ban Scizor. If any pokemon deserves a suspect after these two, Scizor is the number one candidate.
 
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#18
Sc
Breloom? Uh anybody? Is Azumarill really that much worse? But seriously, most players went out of their way to condemn Azumarill, while not saying a word about Breloom. Azumarill is the elephant in the room, and it almost seems like people are afraid to voice their concerns over Breloom, for fear of those kind of people who said M Lati and M Gardevoir weren't broken.
View attachment 111522

Breloom @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Rock Tomb
- Swords Dance
View attachment 111522
Breloom @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Tomb
View attachment 111522
Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Seed Bomb
- Facade

Edit: The Scizor Dilemma
Ever since Scizor entered the tier, there has been players who heavily supported a ban. Many checks, one counter. The dilemma that has delayed its suspect is the massive effect Scizor has on this tier. It has the tier wrapped around its pincer. If we ban Scizor, Malt will become pretty broken, only stopped by Aggron-M. If we ban Malt, then Latias becomes broken, only stopped by nothing. If we ban Latias, then the tier should stabilize, although balance and offense will have lost their best defensive pokemon which could brave the forces of Manectric-M, Nidoking, Infernape, Volcanion and Gliscor. Where this will end up, I don't know. But to take the first step would be to ban Scizor. If any pokemon deserves a suspect after these two, Scizor is the number one candidate.
Scizor definitely defines the tier, there’s no question about that. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s broken though. It definitely keeps a lot of things in check, but I have to say the biggest counter to latias definitely isn’t M Alt, it’s A-Muk.

And M-mane is dropping off in usage and viability because of Hippo and swampert usage plus the surge of rhyperior, who don’t fear much because m-mane is one dimensional.

I think Breloom is still the most bannable Pokemon in the tier, you often don’t know what set it is before it uses a move, and there’s just enough variability in its sets to punish you for not having a strong enough check (or even a predictable one). Does it spore on the switch? Does it SD, to live a hit with sash? Does it rock tomb, to take down your safety goggles crobat (an otherwise near-perfect counter)? Or is it toxic orb, where it might bulk up late game, or focus punch on the switch to devastate your spore sack? You can definitely prepare for the mon, and even most variants, but it can put insane amounts of pressure on offence single-handedly.

I feel that Azu is amazing, but I’ve always felt there’s more counterplay to it at least, even if it is limited to keeping X Pokemon healthy to keep it from being able to sweep.
 
#19
Regarding the voting (if it is held), I think when voting on Breloom, the council members need to consider the Azu voting results, because once Azu is gone, we lose the best defensive answer to Breloom. The only mons besides Azu that can take its stab moves and that can avoid being put to sleep are Vileplume, Mandibuzz, Acrobatics Gliscor and some safety goggles shit.
 
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#20
i demand a test on both azu and breloom
they are too broken
BOTH OF THEM
there is no agure that azu is too gud, and tbh it has only one switch in(Z-haze tenta)
but breloom will be a lot more broken too
why dropping it in the first place UU comunity:blobastonished:

Edit: The Scizor Dilemma
Ever since Scizor entered the tier, there has been players who heavily supported a ban. Many checks, one counter. The dilemma that has delayed its suspect is the massive effect Scizor has on this tier. It has the tier wrapped around its pincer. If we ban Scizor, Malt will become pretty broken, only stopped by Aggron-M. If we ban Malt, then Latias becomes broken, only stopped by nothing. If we ban Latias, then the tier should stabilize, although balance and offense will have lost their best defensive pokemon which could brave the forces of Manectric-M, Nidoking, Infernape, Volcanion and Gliscor. Where this will end up, I don't know. But to take the first step would be to ban Scizor. If any pokemon deserves a suspect after these two, Scizor is the number one candidate.
for that i must say it will be too hard too fix
ik it is too gud and this mon is why i am stuggling wth teambuild
but banning this means banning like 5 more mons and it is definitly not healthy
 
#22
but I have to say the biggest counter to latias definitely isn’t M Alt, it’s A-Muk.
+1 252 SpA Latias Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 283-334 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252+ Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 218-260 (72.1 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Latias rips this tier apart. In a tier without Scizor, you'd begin to see some ridiculus things going on. Dragonium Z Latias would become the best set easily. You'd have to have Toxic on your Sylveon, as otherwise Latias can set up on the switch. 4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 134-162 (44.3 - 53.6%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 163-193 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Essentially, Scizor isn't letting these pokemon show their true potential, which is broken potential. Muk is a good counter to latias, but can simply be broken by Dragonium Z. Sylveon without toxic is setup bait bar crits. Currently, even Scizor can be gotten around via Z-Thunder or hp fire. Latias is just mad versatile in this tier, and if Scizor was to go, Latias has to go, as well as M-Alt. Scizor essentially keeps two broken pokemon just barely in the tier. And with Scizor's counter being Arcanine, who is underused in the UnderUsed tier, it could easily be worthy of a ban.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 272-321 (72.7 - 85.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Scizor All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 322-381 (93.8 - 111%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Infernape: 246-290 (83.9 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Scizor Savage Spin-Out (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Hippowdon: 369-435 (87.8 - 103.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Scizor Savage Spin-Out (140 BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 417-492 (86.6 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 213-252 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#24
I think enough has been said on Azumarill so I’ll leave that be.

I think Breloom currently is terrifying to prep for, and working of the assumption that Azumarill gets banned, actually becomes even worse to deal with. I think this not only because Sap Sipper Azu is no longer an option, but that because the only things that can safely respond to a Technician Breloom running Spore / B Seed / Mach / Tomb or Swords Dance are shit like Venu / Foongus / Tangela / Vileplume which would otherwise be downright unviable without the mushroom here. At least if Azu is here aswell there’s more justification for running these mons because you check two of the top offensive threats in the metagame in one slot, but with only Breloom accounted for it starts to seem a bit unreasonable to have to run them on any less offensive play style for the sake of dealing with Loom adequately. This doesn’t even include the fact that Breloom could run sets to get round these Pokemon using either nat gift or z moves, although I think over the majority of matchups these sets are a lot worse. As much as I enjoy using Breloom for its ability to dismantle fatter squads (which I think could become really strong post vote) I don’t think it should be staying in UU.

I don’t really have too much to say on Serperior, I think the lack of argument against it in this thread currently says it all. One thing I’d like to ask, if any council member does vote ban on it I’d love to hear the reasoning for it, I simply can’t see why myself so it’d be an interesting read oo
 

Pearl

Something in you lit up heaven in me
is a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
UU Leader
#25

Everyone on the council is done voting. Here are the results!



This means that Azumarill is now banned from UU, with 8 out of 9 people voting against it. On the other hand, both Breloom and Serperior are staying in the tier, with the former receiving 3 ban votes, while the latter only received a sole vote to banish it. These decisions are likely to be reviewed later on once there is the possibility to publicly suspect Pokemon again after the current tournament season is over (if there's any demand to do so). Until then, we're saying farewell to Azumarill. Below, there will be short explanations behind the council's collective decision (written by Hogg):

Azumarill was already borderline broken before Amoonguss rose, largely on the strength of its CB set. Combining good bulk with a great defensive typing, priority and completely insane wallbreaking potential makes Azu much more reliable than any other similar wallbreakers. Chances are Azumarill would have gotten suspected even if Amoonguss had stayed, and with its most consistent and splashable answer gone, I think it's OK to say goodbye to the bunny a little bit early.

While Breloom has an incredibly high damage ceiling thanks to the unpredictable Bullet Seed, it struggles from absolutely terrible bulk and a mediocre Speed. While Spore is often cited as a major part of why Breloom is so broken, sleep is actually something you can and should build around, and UU has many options to do so. Breloom's terrible bulk and the plethora of fighting and grass resists in the tier means that it is far easier to offensively check than Azumarill, and the fact that it lacks the immediate wallbreaking potential of Azumarill means that it is far easier to shut down, requiring niche sets to beat most grass types.

Despite its ability to rapidly snowball and the effectiveness of SubSeed at pressuring bulky teams, Serperior still struggles with the fact that Grass is a terrible attacking type, which gives the tier a broad number of options for preventing it from spiraling out of control. Like Breloom it remains a top threat, but also like Breloom it finds itself far easier to shut down or offensively check than Azumarill even in the post-Amoonguss meta.

Kris The Immortal Eyan Obligatorily bugging you guys to ban Azumarill from the UU ladder. Thanks a lot in advance! :psyglad:
 

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