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np: USUM UU Stage 7 - Too Good At Goodbyes (Azumarill banned, Breloom and Serperior remain UU)
- Thread starter Pearl
- Start date
- Status
Azumarill getting the boot is the least surprising thing that's happened this week. When the ladder shifts to Vileplume to solve problems, then something isn't right. Serperior decision doesn't surprise me much. Grass is ass and it is still relatively one-dimensional. The Z-Hyper Beam set is incredibly rare (and I think that correlates to it not being a great set), and SubSeed still has a mess of answers that can maintain it.
The Breloom decision doesn't exactly baffle me, but I was a little caught off-guard how large the majority in keeping it was. I agree with the majority of Hogg's blurb, with the exception of there being a plethora of Grass- and Fighting-type resists. Individually yes, these resists exist. Otherwise you're looking at Latias, M-Alt, Gengar, Heracross, Moltres, Togekiss, Celebi, Chandelure, and Crobat (just S through B+ ranks) as safe switches that can legitimately handle coming in on both of Breloom's STAB.
Before going any further, I want to clarify that I agree with Council's decision regarding Breloom. It's dirt slow, struggles to take a hit, and is fairly easy to revenge as long as the Pokemon doing so can eat an unboosted or +2 Mach Punch (just to be safe).
TechniLoom, with a really good read, is dummying Moltres, Chandelure, and Togekiss switch-ins with Rock Tomb. Crobat and Latias can come in once on Facade TOrb Breloom and force it out, but won't be coming back in on it unless they're above 75% (assuming Rocks). In a vacuum, it can deal with pretty much anything that gets thrown at it (exceptions to defensive M-Alt, Celebi). Its success against these Pokemon in practice is an entirely different thing, but unless the idea here is that either these Pokemon need to start running Sleep Talk to circumvent Spore, or status absorbers like FOrb Hera and Gliscor (w/ Flying STAB) need to increase in popularity. I think its presence is being a bit overlooked and that plain-old forcing it out is looking like the optimal play unless you are for sure running one of the aforementioned checks. To me, it appears that dealing with Breloom is going to become a matter of prediction and knowing its set, similar to Hydreigon in ORAS.
How Breloom is dealt with will probably see general bandage 'mons (ie: Celebi / fat M-Alt) seeing more usage or teams running a combination of things that can handle it. Again, I see a lot of parallels to ORAS Hydreigon here. Just wanted to point out that I do think Breloom is being a tad overlooked.
The Breloom decision doesn't exactly baffle me, but I was a little caught off-guard how large the majority in keeping it was. I agree with the majority of Hogg's blurb, with the exception of there being a plethora of Grass- and Fighting-type resists. Individually yes, these resists exist. Otherwise you're looking at Latias, M-Alt, Gengar, Heracross, Moltres, Togekiss, Celebi, Chandelure, and Crobat (just S through B+ ranks) as safe switches that can legitimately handle coming in on both of Breloom's STAB.
Before going any further, I want to clarify that I agree with Council's decision regarding Breloom. It's dirt slow, struggles to take a hit, and is fairly easy to revenge as long as the Pokemon doing so can eat an unboosted or +2 Mach Punch (just to be safe).
TechniLoom, with a really good read, is dummying Moltres, Chandelure, and Togekiss switch-ins with Rock Tomb. Crobat and Latias can come in once on Facade TOrb Breloom and force it out, but won't be coming back in on it unless they're above 75% (assuming Rocks). In a vacuum, it can deal with pretty much anything that gets thrown at it (exceptions to defensive M-Alt, Celebi). Its success against these Pokemon in practice is an entirely different thing, but unless the idea here is that either these Pokemon need to start running Sleep Talk to circumvent Spore, or status absorbers like FOrb Hera and Gliscor (w/ Flying STAB) need to increase in popularity. I think its presence is being a bit overlooked and that plain-old forcing it out is looking like the optimal play unless you are for sure running one of the aforementioned checks. To me, it appears that dealing with Breloom is going to become a matter of prediction and knowing its set, similar to Hydreigon in ORAS.
How Breloom is dealt with will probably see general bandage 'mons (ie: Celebi / fat M-Alt) seeing more usage or teams running a combination of things that can handle it. Again, I see a lot of parallels to ORAS Hydreigon here. Just wanted to point out that I do think Breloom is being a tad overlooked.
I'm out atm so I haven't had a chance to include everyone's ban/DNB reasoning but here's what Lycans had to say:
I'll try to post some more council reasoning behind votes when I get a chance (and of course council can post their own reasoning in thread as well).Lycans said:
there are a couple thoughts i'd like to share now Azumarill it's gone. I support the above decision and also did it the first time even when we had amoonguss between us this mon had a strong capicity to break many teams from the team preview but yeah its also true it contributed giving the sinergy and roll much teams needs right now with its good typing it was able to check certain threads of the meta such as Hydreigon or Gliscor sometimes.
Now that it isnt here there're a couple sets that could start to have more viability
ok this isnt new at all but I've noticed the lot of teams with lack a Hydre switchs there's at this moment and think the main reason this wasnt used was the fear to give to Azumarill a free turn to kill / weaken something. the scarf set is ''easy'' to counter many times cuz its only goal to be the faster mon and revenge killer
this works different with the specs set since even if your opponent has a fairy in his side you can get a kill per game if you predict well
as i said lose a fairy at this moment could be a pain since they play an important role at moment to check fight and Dragon types but almost aways the most arent fast enough and cant check well the things they need but this maked me remind a set i saw be used by Pak Pearl and dodmen and which actually can do it well in the current meta in its roll checking Fights and Dragon types
and the most important thing it can check Breloom and Serperior
Now that it isnt here there're a couple sets that could start to have more viability
ok this isnt new at all but I've noticed the lot of teams with lack a Hydre switchs there's at this moment and think the main reason this wasnt used was the fear to give to Azumarill a free turn to kill / weaken something. the scarf set is ''easy'' to counter many times cuz its only goal to be the faster mon and revenge killer
this works different with the specs set since even if your opponent has a fairy in his side you can get a kill per game if you predict well
Hydreigon (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Flash Cannon
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Flash Cannon
as i said lose a fairy at this moment could be a pain since they play an important role at moment to check fight and Dragon types but almost aways the most arent fast enough and cant check well the things they need but this maked me remind a set i saw be used by Pak Pearl and dodmen and which actually can do it well in the current meta in its roll checking Fights and Dragon types
Togekiss (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Fire Blast
- Dazzling Gleam
- Trick / Sleep Talk
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Fire Blast
- Dazzling Gleam
- Trick / Sleep Talk
and the most important thing it can check Breloom and Serperior
david0895
Mercy Main Btw
Can a Z-Celebrate set work in UU?
That’s interesting, if it is able to run a set of Celebrate / Seed Flare / Dazzling Gleam / Hidden Power Fire (I don’t know what the moves constraints are like) without being nature locked, it could definitely be a threat, faces competition from Serperior but it’s much greater Speed and bulk post-boost definitely give it a niche of its own. Cool addition!
Seed Flare and HP Fire are prob mandatory, then Gleam can be slashed with Psychic and Earth Power
yeezyknows
Banned deucer.
really dislike how the council voted on loom, and I'm hoping we get a suspect test in the future with the new gxe threshold
while lycans' points do have merit, adding counterplay for loom is just so constraining on building. I don't think it's healthy for the tier to practically necessitate having one of toge/lati/crobat/malt if you don't want to get picked apart by opps thoughtlessly spamming LO, bullet seed, or spore. rock tomb also threatens the flying mons I listed, and lati can't freely switch into spores/seeds.
while what lycans said about loom's frailty and low speed tier is true, it's not hard for loom to switch in freely on a ton of current viable mons, rocks setters in particular. if you exclusively use HO i can understand that loom might not be as threatening, but the tiers most common rockers (hippo, pert, rhy, and (non-uturn) glisc) are all just setup fodder/free switchins for loom
i don't think the statement that loom can be easily revenged is true either, as +2 LO mach, particularly with rocks/chip, will ohko practically every scarfer/mon that creeps 262/239, barring lati
i personally don't want to have a meta where we can't run slower teams and literally need to have dedicated niche loom checks if we don't want to lose, these are the hallmarks of a mon that's centralizing and overtly broken
if the council/tls feel strongly about keeping loom and don't want this to be a rehashing of the mlati kerfuffle, just have the same gxe bar we've used for recent tests, tons of high level players don't want loom in the tier
suspect loom dudes, it's not healthy
while lycans' points do have merit, adding counterplay for loom is just so constraining on building. I don't think it's healthy for the tier to practically necessitate having one of toge/lati/crobat/malt if you don't want to get picked apart by opps thoughtlessly spamming LO, bullet seed, or spore. rock tomb also threatens the flying mons I listed, and lati can't freely switch into spores/seeds.
while what lycans said about loom's frailty and low speed tier is true, it's not hard for loom to switch in freely on a ton of current viable mons, rocks setters in particular. if you exclusively use HO i can understand that loom might not be as threatening, but the tiers most common rockers (hippo, pert, rhy, and (non-uturn) glisc) are all just setup fodder/free switchins for loom
i don't think the statement that loom can be easily revenged is true either, as +2 LO mach, particularly with rocks/chip, will ohko practically every scarfer/mon that creeps 262/239, barring lati
i personally don't want to have a meta where we can't run slower teams and literally need to have dedicated niche loom checks if we don't want to lose, these are the hallmarks of a mon that's centralizing and overtly broken
if the council/tls feel strongly about keeping loom and don't want this to be a rehashing of the mlati kerfuffle, just have the same gxe bar we've used for recent tests, tons of high level players don't want loom in the tier
suspect loom dudes, it's not healthy
I get that this has been passed over in the past, but if Serperior was deemed worthy of a suspect even if it's via council voting, then I think Scizor should get one aswell as I think it's clear to anybody who plays this tier actively that Scizor has as much or more potential to be a broken presence within it as Serperior does. However the last thing I want this post to be is a case of "you voted on this pokemon, so you should vote on this one too" so hopefully I can lay out why I think Scizor is currently deserving of some attention.
Lack of defensive counterplay: The list of pokemon that can survive a +2 Iron Plate or Life Orb after Stealth Rock, that outspeed Scizor or can live any of it's common coverage moves, and dispatch it reliably on the face of it doesn't actually look too bad. From a cursory glance at the VR down to B, my list looks like this:
Manectric, Cobalion, Infernape (Quick Attack isn't common), Krookodile (Has to be Tect Rage or Fire Fang which aren't necessarily most common), Chandelure, Mega Houndoom (this and Chande need hella removal support to ensure theyre healthy), HP Fire Rotom-C, Volcanion, Doublade, Mantine (This and Doublade become shaky if SD Knock gets popular again), Tentacruel (prays for a burn even if haze, odds probably in it's favour though.), Necrozma, Quagsire.
13 Pokemon in all.
Shakier responses: Sharpedo (ill include it as it lives bp and crunch does a fuck ton to offensive scizor), Hippo (+2 Z Moves fuck this, last mon Scizor potentially grabs +4), Swampert (Same as Hippo).
This doesn't actually look so bad whatsoever, but then you have to consider that even when only considering an offensive sd set (no u-turn), the amount of these pokemon that can actually switch in is hilariously low. This wouldn't be so bad if it was something like Crawdaunt, where it hardly ever gets a chance to set up and it doesn't get the opportunities to come in either, neither of which anybody could claim is a factor for Scizor due to it's excellent typing and matchup against common threats. Then we move on to the move I've left out so far, U-Turn. I'm personally of the opinion that something that can run Choice Band, STAB U-Turn off a 394 Attack stat is uncounterable, due to it's sheer power and the inability to prevent it gaining momentum in an incredible amount of scenarios. Azumarill was recently banned, and at least part of that was due to the versatility of it's sets and the fact that so few pokemon could take on all of it's sets at once, and I think that this argument also applies to Scizor. There is literally not a single pokemon that can come into CB Scizor without incurring some kind of cost to it's team apart from maybe Helm Alo I guess, and due to Scizor's power and versatility this has the potential to be a pretty huge cost. Pursuit is just the cherry on the cake, allowing Scizor to provide even more cost to using certain pokemon and applying more pressure on the opponent and at the teambuilder stage. This make up the majority of why I at least want Scizor to get some attention, because I find it incredible that it's managed to stay off the radar so long despite having all of these traits and demonstrating them as long as it's been in the tier. It's also benefited from the recent movement within the tier, as losing Amoonguss means losing a blanket check to most Scizor sets that with Regen and Rocky Helmet, could actually somewhat punish CB U-Turn while providing a reasonable check to SD sets. The movement of Azumarill has freed it up in terms of EVs as a common spread was 136 Speed to outrun Adamant Azu, meaning it can potentially run more bulk giving it more opportunity to come in and do what it does.
Tl:dr Scizor is the most consistent, and potentially most threatening set up Pokémon in the tier which is also capable of being one of the best, if not the absolute best momentum grabber in the tier. There’s no one defensive counterplay that ensures safety against all sets, it finds more opportunities than most offensive powerhouses to come into play so why does it never get considered when voting/suspects come around?
Arguments I've heard floated around for keeping Scizor in the tier is that "it's holding the tier together" and "it'll cause a lot of instability" but I don't like these arguments whatsoever because this to me says that those saying this agree at least partly that Scizor is broken, but they're content to keep it as they're worried that other pokemon will become broken in it's absence. In my opinion this isn't how we should be looking at tiering, and points to an unhealthy tier state. I understand that despite this post the council probably won't do a great deal re: Scizor because they don't believe it's broken but I just wanted to get this post across and hopefully get some enlightenment on why it's not considered broken.
Lack of defensive counterplay: The list of pokemon that can survive a +2 Iron Plate or Life Orb after Stealth Rock, that outspeed Scizor or can live any of it's common coverage moves, and dispatch it reliably on the face of it doesn't actually look too bad. From a cursory glance at the VR down to B, my list looks like this:
Manectric, Cobalion, Infernape (Quick Attack isn't common), Krookodile (Has to be Tect Rage or Fire Fang which aren't necessarily most common), Chandelure, Mega Houndoom (this and Chande need hella removal support to ensure theyre healthy), HP Fire Rotom-C, Volcanion, Doublade, Mantine (This and Doublade become shaky if SD Knock gets popular again), Tentacruel (prays for a burn even if haze, odds probably in it's favour though.), Necrozma, Quagsire.
13 Pokemon in all.
Shakier responses: Sharpedo (ill include it as it lives bp and crunch does a fuck ton to offensive scizor), Hippo (+2 Z Moves fuck this, last mon Scizor potentially grabs +4), Swampert (Same as Hippo).
This doesn't actually look so bad whatsoever, but then you have to consider that even when only considering an offensive sd set (no u-turn), the amount of these pokemon that can actually switch in is hilariously low. This wouldn't be so bad if it was something like Crawdaunt, where it hardly ever gets a chance to set up and it doesn't get the opportunities to come in either, neither of which anybody could claim is a factor for Scizor due to it's excellent typing and matchup against common threats. Then we move on to the move I've left out so far, U-Turn. I'm personally of the opinion that something that can run Choice Band, STAB U-Turn off a 394 Attack stat is uncounterable, due to it's sheer power and the inability to prevent it gaining momentum in an incredible amount of scenarios. Azumarill was recently banned, and at least part of that was due to the versatility of it's sets and the fact that so few pokemon could take on all of it's sets at once, and I think that this argument also applies to Scizor. There is literally not a single pokemon that can come into CB Scizor without incurring some kind of cost to it's team apart from maybe Helm Alo I guess, and due to Scizor's power and versatility this has the potential to be a pretty huge cost. Pursuit is just the cherry on the cake, allowing Scizor to provide even more cost to using certain pokemon and applying more pressure on the opponent and at the teambuilder stage. This make up the majority of why I at least want Scizor to get some attention, because I find it incredible that it's managed to stay off the radar so long despite having all of these traits and demonstrating them as long as it's been in the tier. It's also benefited from the recent movement within the tier, as losing Amoonguss means losing a blanket check to most Scizor sets that with Regen and Rocky Helmet, could actually somewhat punish CB U-Turn while providing a reasonable check to SD sets. The movement of Azumarill has freed it up in terms of EVs as a common spread was 136 Speed to outrun Adamant Azu, meaning it can potentially run more bulk giving it more opportunity to come in and do what it does.
Tl:dr Scizor is the most consistent, and potentially most threatening set up Pokémon in the tier which is also capable of being one of the best, if not the absolute best momentum grabber in the tier. There’s no one defensive counterplay that ensures safety against all sets, it finds more opportunities than most offensive powerhouses to come into play so why does it never get considered when voting/suspects come around?
Arguments I've heard floated around for keeping Scizor in the tier is that "it's holding the tier together" and "it'll cause a lot of instability" but I don't like these arguments whatsoever because this to me says that those saying this agree at least partly that Scizor is broken, but they're content to keep it as they're worried that other pokemon will become broken in it's absence. In my opinion this isn't how we should be looking at tiering, and points to an unhealthy tier state. I understand that despite this post the council probably won't do a great deal re: Scizor because they don't believe it's broken but I just wanted to get this post across and hopefully get some enlightenment on why it's not considered broken.
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I support at 100% what yeezyknows has just said. Breloom has never been that much brainless.
There is only 1 Pokemon that can deal with basically every set of Breloom and it's Tangela.. freaking Tangela ! You have to build with LC Uber Pokemon if you want to be 100% safe with Breloom. I think this shows to what extent Breloom is dumb.
Here are the best answers to Breloom on the paper :
If it hasn't Mega-Evolve yet, it can't comes on LO Rock Tomb and if it's Mega, then can't come on Spore.
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria: 278-330 (95.5 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
244 Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 140-165 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
Pretty good vs Breloom LO or Toxic Orb but get OHKO by +2 Z-Giga Impact or +2 NG Ganlon Berry. If Breloom + Muk-A then RIP.
Can't come on Spore. 2HKO by LO Rock Romb and Façade.
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 139-165 (46 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
244 Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 166-196 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Can't come on Spore (unless you're Safety Goggles). OHKO by LO Rock Tomb and 2HKO by Façade.
Can't come on Spore or LO Bullet Seed.
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 224 Def Tentacruel: 258-303 (71 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Pretty good vs Breloom unless you take some residual damages..
+2 244 Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 243-286 (68.6 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
I don't like the actual metagame. Not being able to run slow team is definitively not a good thing and it shows how unhealthy Breloom is for the tier. In my opnion, the reason exposed by the council which stated that because of it's mediocre Bulk/Speed, Breloom isn't that big of a threat are definitively wonky. Even if this Pokemon is slow, it has an amazing priority with Technician Mach Punch and enough coverage to threaten a lot of Pokemon that can deal with its STAB. Spore on Breloom is unhealthy as hell. Unlike Amoonguss which didn't do much after clicking Spore, Breloom can SD or throw some powerful blows on the opposing team while having put to Sleep a Pokemon which means that during a couple of turns, a Pokemon is neutralized.
There is only 1 Pokemon that can deal with basically every set of Breloom and it's Tangela.. freaking Tangela ! You have to build with LC Uber Pokemon if you want to be 100% safe with Breloom. I think this shows to what extent Breloom is dumb.
Here are the best answers to Breloom on the paper :
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria: 278-330 (95.5 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
244 Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 140-165 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 139-165 (46 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
244 Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 166-196 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 224 Def Tentacruel: 258-303 (71 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 244 Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 243-286 (68.6 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
I don't like the actual metagame. Not being able to run slow team is definitively not a good thing and it shows how unhealthy Breloom is for the tier. In my opnion, the reason exposed by the council which stated that because of it's mediocre Bulk/Speed, Breloom isn't that big of a threat are definitively wonky. Even if this Pokemon is slow, it has an amazing priority with Technician Mach Punch and enough coverage to threaten a lot of Pokemon that can deal with its STAB. Spore on Breloom is unhealthy as hell. Unlike Amoonguss which didn't do much after clicking Spore, Breloom can SD or throw some powerful blows on the opposing team while having put to Sleep a Pokemon which means that during a couple of turns, a Pokemon is neutralized.
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Hey y'all, I've only been in the tier for a couple of months. I joined about a month or two before Aim brought that monkey to the tier. So i've watched a lot of changes happen in just that short time. I don't have any fancy calcs but i figured another opinion in the mix wouldn't hurt
I think that the Azu ban was fine. It was really hard to deal with sometimes because you never new which of the three sets it could be running (Banded, z-BD, or Trap).
I agree with keeping serperior, it really only runs one or two sets so it can be pretty easy to deal with. of course you have to play carefully around it though.
I think Breloom should at least be suspect tested. I have it on a couple teams and its busted. I have a poison heal sub-FP set that nothing wants to switch in on and a normal LO-technician loom. Those can both royally screw others over. Haing a mon which prevents people from having slower teams isnt good for the tier. and having that same mon be able to sweep teams in the way it does isn't fun on any part of the Tier.
I think that the Azu ban was fine. It was really hard to deal with sometimes because you never new which of the three sets it could be running (Banded, z-BD, or Trap).
I agree with keeping serperior, it really only runs one or two sets so it can be pretty easy to deal with. of course you have to play carefully around it though.
I think Breloom should at least be suspect tested. I have it on a couple teams and its busted. I have a poison heal sub-FP set that nothing wants to switch in on and a normal LO-technician loom. Those can both royally screw others over. Haing a mon which prevents people from having slower teams isnt good for the tier. and having that same mon be able to sweep teams in the way it does isn't fun on any part of the Tier.
I rly want to say sth here
I do think breloom at least deserves a suspect because how has the tier been lacking switch ins to this monster
both its set are broken, yes real broken
breloom shaped to format to much that the meta is forced to run offensive teams wth fast mons for revenge kill
stall and balance is much worst atm, so to speak completely ruined the whole format
here i urge the uu conical to suspect this mon
this mon is extremely unhealthily to the tier and this must be changed
I do think breloom at least deserves a suspect because how has the tier been lacking switch ins to this monster
both its set are broken, yes real broken
breloom shaped to format to much that the meta is forced to run offensive teams wth fast mons for revenge kill
stall and balance is much worst atm, so to speak completely ruined the whole format
here i urge the uu conical to suspect this mon
this mon is extremely unhealthily to the tier and this must be changed
Togekiss and Chandelure can not come neither on Spore nor LO Rock Tomb. Gengar takes about 50% with 2 hits Bullet Seed and can be OHKO if 4 or 5 hits. This Pokemon are only soft check to Breloom. Tangela doesn't care of Breloom as you can see with this calcs :
+2 252+ Atk Ganlon Berry Breloom Natural Gift (100 BP Ice) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 210-248 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The fact that Breloom has been suspected or voted in the past don't change anything about its potential. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one which think that Breloom should be BL and not in Underused anymore. It's been 2 weeks since Amoonguss rose in OU and the meta still can't deal with Breloom and that's not going to change since we lost another check to Breloom namely Sap Sipper Azumarill.
+2 252+ Atk Ganlon Berry Breloom Natural Gift (100 BP Ice) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 210-248 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The fact that Breloom has been suspected or voted in the past don't change anything about its potential. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one which think that Breloom should be BL and not in Underused anymore. It's been 2 weeks since Amoonguss rose in OU and the meta still can't deal with Breloom and that's not going to change since we lost another check to Breloom namely Sap Sipper Azumarill.
When the Breloom suspect test was going on, I mentioned in a passing comment that I thought that having the suspect test at the same time as Buzzwole might have been a bad idea, since Buzzwole was a natural counter to Breloom with its typing and bulk. Now, I highly regret voting to let Breloom into the tier.
I just wanted to echo the sentiment that Breloom is actually kind of broken for the tier right now. Like others have said, there is almost nothing in the tier that wants to switch into it, at all. The rising Poison Heal + Facade set destroys would-be switch-ins like Latias and Crobat, and the traditional LO + three attacks set still makes sure that Ghost-types such as Gengar can never come in safely. After using a Breloom team on ladder for an entire cycle of ULT, and making it to a decent rating, it simply feels like there is so little counterplay to the 'mon defensively that it just cannot be healthy for the tier. Out of the ~100 games I played for ULT3 and ULT4 combined, I would say 75% of those games involved Breloom Spore-ing a 'mon and getting either free Facades or SD's up on switches, which eventually led to me either straight up winning or weakening the opponent's team to the point where the rest of my team could win. That is what a breaker does, yes, but my point was that it was so ridiculously consistent at what it did due to its access to Spore that it outperforms almost all traditional breakers in my opinion.
Furthermore, I wanted to say that Togekiss, Chandelure and Gengar are not reliable "answers" to Breloom in the fact that they can never come in safely on an any attack of Breloom's, and if it Sash Breloom (which is not uncommon) Rock Tomb (and in the case of Chandelure and Gengar, Bullet Seed) means that it can simply click Rock Tomb twice and dispatch of the threat. Not to mention, none of these 'mons EVER want to be hit with a Spore, since it completely erases them from the game. Letting your Breloom answer take a Spore often means that it is free to run through your team, since a +2 Breloom is nigh unstoppable right now. Lastly, many Breloom teams, especially those that elect to run Poison Heal Breloom, run a trapper like Muk-A or Aerodactyl-M specifically to trap mons like Chandelure and Gengar that would otherwise stop a Breloom sweep.
Essentially, the point that I'm getting at and that many have said before me is that Breloom completely invalidates any form of play outside of offense and hyper offense in my opinion. By virtue of it's typing it is a fantastic answer to AloBliss stall, and it runs through the common rocks setters in the tier, using them as free set-up fodder. Classic answers like Gliscor are forced to run Wing Attack/Aerial Ace now in order to not lose to +2 PH Loom Facade. As time has gone on, answers have been discovered for the classic Techniloom set that was the most common during the suspect test, but new Breloom sets abusing Poison Heal have risen up to take Techniloom's place - not to mention, Techniloom is still as viable as ever.
In conclusion, maybe we should look at suspecting Loom? When the best answer to the 'mon is speedy Sludge Wave Tentacruel and/or fucking Vileplume, and every team composition is either built around Breloom and/or dealing with opposing Brelooms... maybe we made a mistake.
I just wanted to echo the sentiment that Breloom is actually kind of broken for the tier right now. Like others have said, there is almost nothing in the tier that wants to switch into it, at all. The rising Poison Heal + Facade set destroys would-be switch-ins like Latias and Crobat, and the traditional LO + three attacks set still makes sure that Ghost-types such as Gengar can never come in safely. After using a Breloom team on ladder for an entire cycle of ULT, and making it to a decent rating, it simply feels like there is so little counterplay to the 'mon defensively that it just cannot be healthy for the tier. Out of the ~100 games I played for ULT3 and ULT4 combined, I would say 75% of those games involved Breloom Spore-ing a 'mon and getting either free Facades or SD's up on switches, which eventually led to me either straight up winning or weakening the opponent's team to the point where the rest of my team could win. That is what a breaker does, yes, but my point was that it was so ridiculously consistent at what it did due to its access to Spore that it outperforms almost all traditional breakers in my opinion.
Furthermore, I wanted to say that Togekiss, Chandelure and Gengar are not reliable "answers" to Breloom in the fact that they can never come in safely on an any attack of Breloom's, and if it Sash Breloom (which is not uncommon) Rock Tomb (and in the case of Chandelure and Gengar, Bullet Seed) means that it can simply click Rock Tomb twice and dispatch of the threat. Not to mention, none of these 'mons EVER want to be hit with a Spore, since it completely erases them from the game. Letting your Breloom answer take a Spore often means that it is free to run through your team, since a +2 Breloom is nigh unstoppable right now. Lastly, many Breloom teams, especially those that elect to run Poison Heal Breloom, run a trapper like Muk-A or Aerodactyl-M specifically to trap mons like Chandelure and Gengar that would otherwise stop a Breloom sweep.
Essentially, the point that I'm getting at and that many have said before me is that Breloom completely invalidates any form of play outside of offense and hyper offense in my opinion. By virtue of it's typing it is a fantastic answer to AloBliss stall, and it runs through the common rocks setters in the tier, using them as free set-up fodder. Classic answers like Gliscor are forced to run Wing Attack/Aerial Ace now in order to not lose to +2 PH Loom Facade. As time has gone on, answers have been discovered for the classic Techniloom set that was the most common during the suspect test, but new Breloom sets abusing Poison Heal have risen up to take Techniloom's place - not to mention, Techniloom is still as viable as ever.
In conclusion, maybe we should look at suspecting Loom? When the best answer to the 'mon is speedy Sludge Wave Tentacruel and/or fucking Vileplume, and every team composition is either built around Breloom and/or dealing with opposing Brelooms... maybe we made a mistake.
Breloom reminds me a lot of Conkeldurr. Insanely strong, ways to boost, great priority, ways to recover health, great coverage, and very few actual answers, if any. It had like one answer, and that was Togekiss, but even then with some hazards up it wasn't a check anymore. That was the reason why Conkeldurr got banned, and it just sounds a lot like Breloom right now.
One thing I'd like to point out is that you can pair Breloom with certain Pokemon, like Alolan Muk, to completely circumvent "answers" like Celebi, Chandelure, and Latias by pursuit trapping them and weakening them to the point where they aren't answers anymore. Breloom's very few answers can be easily covered with its teammates, and also its check list gets much lower with any hazards up. The combination of everything else people are saying combined with my experience against this mon being really not fair unless I'm packing 3-4 answers to it makes me think it should have been banned.
One thing I'd like to point out is that you can pair Breloom with certain Pokemon, like Alolan Muk, to completely circumvent "answers" like Celebi, Chandelure, and Latias by pursuit trapping them and weakening them to the point where they aren't answers anymore. Breloom's very few answers can be easily covered with its teammates, and also its check list gets much lower with any hazards up. The combination of everything else people are saying combined with my experience against this mon being really not fair unless I'm packing 3-4 answers to it makes me think it should have been banned.
just gonna throw my opinion in for breloom real quick - as somebody who played way before breloom was in the tier, and recently started playing again after the buzzwole test and everything else, i initially didn't consider to be that bad - mostly because it was easy to revenge kill w/ stuff like lati/malt/togekiss - but the more i play against it, the more i realize it just doesn't have any counterplay or defensive counters in the tier barring stuff like defensive celebi and tangela, which are really only run for breloom, which certainly doesn't seem healthy to me. there are a lot of things to consider with breloom, firstly being spore, which guarantees sleep on something unless you're using a grass type (of which there are only 4 in the tier, plus stuff like decidueye/tsareena/rotom-c, the former two being solid checks, albeit decidueye doesn't switch into either bullet seed or rock tomb very well at all (2hkod by both) and tsareena takes a pretty sizable chunk from both as well, although it doesn't have to try to risk a speed tie like decidueye does.) in general, the majority of pokemon that can switch into spore do not take the combination of technician bullet seed/ph facade/tech rock tomb very well whatsoever, making it very difficult for defensive teams to deal with it. the addition of spore in its moveset means it forces 50/50s for the entire game, as switching in something that can actually take a bullet seed and it getting spored on the switch gives breloom a free sd or another free attack, while switching in something that can actually take a spore will often result it in getting cleanly 2hko'd and sometimes, if breloom gets lucky enough with bullet seed, getting ko'd by mach immediately afterwards.
most importantly, breloom creates a meta which naturally punishes slower, defensive teams, since breloom basically has 0 defensive counterplay, and while offensive teams can usually deal with it through faster offensive threats that threaten breloom's low natural bulk and speed tier, it's not like breloom is dead weight against these teams, often also beating these teams once the main checks like lati and chandelure are removed. overall, i would say that breloom is both unhealthy for the tier and completely unfun to play against, and competely warps the meta around itself. the loss of both sap sipper azu and amoonguss from the tier removes breloom's hardest counters and makes it even harder to beat.
most importantly, breloom creates a meta which naturally punishes slower, defensive teams, since breloom basically has 0 defensive counterplay, and while offensive teams can usually deal with it through faster offensive threats that threaten breloom's low natural bulk and speed tier, it's not like breloom is dead weight against these teams, often also beating these teams once the main checks like lati and chandelure are removed. overall, i would say that breloom is both unhealthy for the tier and completely unfun to play against, and competely warps the meta around itself. the loss of both sap sipper azu and amoonguss from the tier removes breloom's hardest counters and makes it even harder to beat.
Well. Earlier I successfully predicted the Breloom situation we have now, and I have to say I wish Breloom had gotten banned. However, I'm not here to talk about Breloom, I'm here to talk about Serperior.
As with Breloom, people insist that Serp isn't broken. And yes, I do have to admit that Serperior has some counterplay. In order to make it easier to understand, I'll compare Serp to Xurkitree. Xurkitree wasn't too hard to revenge kill with a scarf or Maero, but it almost gauranteed a sac. Of course Serperior doesn't hit that hard from the bat, but it snowballs very, very fast. The reason why Xurk was banned wasn't just because it was too powerful, rather the community decided that it exerted too much pressure on slower paced teams. And this is where I draw the comparison. Think of some fast pokemon. Latias, Gengar, Infernape Tornadus. Serperior outspeeds all of these. In other words, you need some really fast pokemon to kill this thing. Of course, having to run one super fast poke on this slow team can be annoying. Let's not forget the fact this thing has glare as well. Anyway, Serperior is only outsped by nine UU pokemon. 9. Furthermore, 5 are mega. On a defensive team, you'll really like to have M-Aggro,M-Slowbro, or Malt. Those three are very, very good in the meta right now. If you choose any of those three, you're left with 4 pokemon. Ok. Well, what are they? Azelf, a hyper offense lead most commonly, if it uses unorthodox sets, it will need a Z move to ko Serp. Raikou. Good luck. Starmie. Decent, but it can't ko without rocks, and can't switch in whatsoever, so you'll have to sac one of your defensive mons most likely, which is very bad for those kinds of teams. Lastly, Crobat is the best on this list, but it hates glare, can be pursuited by Maero, and doesn't like rocks. In other words, Serp kills defensive teams without breaking a sweat, and many people look at it only from the offense perspective, which is a very common one right now, and it even puts in work against offense.
As with Breloom, people insist that Serp isn't broken. And yes, I do have to admit that Serperior has some counterplay. In order to make it easier to understand, I'll compare Serp to Xurkitree. Xurkitree wasn't too hard to revenge kill with a scarf or Maero, but it almost gauranteed a sac. Of course Serperior doesn't hit that hard from the bat, but it snowballs very, very fast. The reason why Xurk was banned wasn't just because it was too powerful, rather the community decided that it exerted too much pressure on slower paced teams. And this is where I draw the comparison. Think of some fast pokemon. Latias, Gengar, Infernape Tornadus. Serperior outspeeds all of these. In other words, you need some really fast pokemon to kill this thing. Of course, having to run one super fast poke on this slow team can be annoying. Let's not forget the fact this thing has glare as well. Anyway, Serperior is only outsped by nine UU pokemon. 9. Furthermore, 5 are mega. On a defensive team, you'll really like to have M-Aggro,M-Slowbro, or Malt. Those three are very, very good in the meta right now. If you choose any of those three, you're left with 4 pokemon. Ok. Well, what are they? Azelf, a hyper offense lead most commonly, if it uses unorthodox sets, it will need a Z move to ko Serp. Raikou. Good luck. Starmie. Decent, but it can't ko without rocks, and can't switch in whatsoever, so you'll have to sac one of your defensive mons most likely, which is very bad for those kinds of teams. Lastly, Crobat is the best on this list, but it hates glare, can be pursuited by Maero, and doesn't like rocks. In other words, Serp kills defensive teams without breaking a sweat, and many people look at it only from the offense perspective, which is a very common one right now, and it even puts in work against offense. +2 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vileplume: 198-234 (55.9 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (Rocks+Leaf Storm can get very bad, especially with a life orb)
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aggron-Mega: 61-72 (17.7 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aggron-Mega: 123-144 (35.8 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+4 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aggron-Mega: 183-216 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As it switches in, you use one, hit it again and survive the heavy slam, then finish it off. You need a sweep with Quick Attack Scizor, or Offensive Maero? Just decide to stay in, and click the same button thrice. If your run life orb, all you need is M aggro to hit 75% and you can avoid that heavy slam, just kill it straight up
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 268-317 (88.7 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Resists stab? 80/130 special wall? Nah, you can't stop it.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Altaria-Mega: 182-214 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I learned this the hard way.
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aggron-Mega: 61-72 (17.7 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aggron-Mega: 123-144 (35.8 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+4 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aggron-Mega: 183-216 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As it switches in, you use one, hit it again and survive the heavy slam, then finish it off. You need a sweep with Quick Attack Scizor, or Offensive Maero? Just decide to stay in, and click the same button thrice. If your run life orb, all you need is M aggro to hit 75% and you can avoid that heavy slam, just kill it straight up
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 268-317 (88.7 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Resists stab? 80/130 special wall? Nah, you can't stop it.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Altaria-Mega: 182-214 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I learned this the hard way.
I don't mean to shit on your opinion, but there tons of things that Serp needs to look out for. Just off the top of my head, in 30 seconds I can think of a handful of mons you forgot to mention that can easily deal with Serp in one form or another.Well. Earlier I successfully predicted the Breloom situation we have now, and I have to say I wish Breloom had gotten banned. However, I'm not here to talk about Breloom, I'm here to talk about Serperior.
+2 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vileplume: 198-234 (55.9 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (Rocks+Leaf Storm can get very bad, especially with a life orb)
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aggron-Mega: 61-72 (17.7 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aggron-Mega: 123-144 (35.8 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+4 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aggron-Mega: 183-216 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As it switches in, you use one, hit it again and survive the heavy slam, then finish it off. You need a sweep with Quick Attack Scizor, or Offensive Maero? Just decide to stay in, and click the same button thrice. If your run life orb, all you need is M aggro to hit 75% and you can avoid that heavy slam, just kill it straight up
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 268-317 (88.7 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Resists stab? 80/130 special wall? Nah, you can't stop it.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Altaria-Mega: 182-214 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I learned this the hard way.
Chandelure @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 52 Def / 16 SpA / 56 SpD / 136 Spe or 248 HP / 84 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Calm Mind
------------------------------------
Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Sleep Talk
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 52 Def / 16 SpA / 56 SpD / 136 Spe or 248 HP / 84 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Calm Mind
------------------------------------
Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Sleep Talk
Togekiss @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Air Slash
- Roost
- Defog
------------------------------------
Togekiss @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Flamethrower / Aura Sphere / Defog
- Trick / Defog
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Air Slash
- Roost
- Defog
------------------------------------
Togekiss @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Flamethrower / Aura Sphere / Defog
- Trick / Defog
Kyurem @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Fire]
------------------------------------
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVS: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Speed or my personal version of EVs: 120 HP / 140 SpA / 4 SpD / 244 Spe
Timid or Modest Nature if using my spread.
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Roost
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Fire]
------------------------------------
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVS: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Speed or my personal version of EVs: 120 HP / 140 SpA / 4 SpD / 244 Spe
Timid or Modest Nature if using my spread.
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Roost
Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- U-turn
Ability: Levitate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- U-turn
Not to mention there are are a plethora of priority threats that Serp needs to prepare for, more Scarf mons not on this list that revenge kill it, and plenty of standard ways to deal with it. For example, if Vincune is behind a sub, a standard Serp isn't doing anything.
I'm not trying to undermine the value of Serp, we all know it's a fantastic mon in this tier, but I personally find it far less suspect than Breloom at the moment.
Defensive team is the main point I was trying to make. Slapping Chandy Or Hydreigon on your team besides your Alomomola/Gliscor/etc core seems pretty cheesy when its just for Serperior. I have to run an extra, non defensive pokemon just for Serperior. I love chandy, but it is the easiest thing to revenge kill in the tier. Maero can pursuit trap it anytime,as well as Muk. Kyurem is weak to rocks and glare, alongside those two it will probably only be able to switch in twice. Yes, it isn't quite as bad as Breloom. But facing Serp without something that outspeeds it/sap sipper? It doesn't end well. You have to prepare so much to beat Serp from a defensive standpoint, as it simply rolls through Blissey, Malt, Maggro, and fake Amoongusses. Sure, you can slap a scarf on many things, but that's a slot lost on your team, when you're trying to check as many threats as possible, and the one you're supposed to check, you check, not counter. Basically, there is no counter to Serp bar sap sippper. Togekiss comes closest, but rocks+sub seed can work its way around it without too much trouble.
Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell
- Seismic Toss
Slowbro-Mega (M) @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 214 Def / 40 SpD / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off
- Scald
- Psyshock
Alomomola (F) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Scald
- Toxic
Quagsire (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Recover
- Protect
- Scald
- Earthquake
Crobat (F) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 248 HP / 76 Atk / 184 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Toxic
- Brave Bird
Muk-Alola (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 248 HP / 92 Atk / 148 SpD / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poison Jab
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Shadow Sneak
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell
- Seismic Toss
Slowbro-Mega (M) @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 214 Def / 40 SpD / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off
- Scald
- Psyshock
Alomomola (F) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Scald
- Toxic
Quagsire (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Recover
- Protect
- Scald
- Earthquake
Crobat (F) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 248 HP / 76 Atk / 184 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Toxic
- Brave Bird
Muk-Alola (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 248 HP / 92 Atk / 148 SpD / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poison Jab
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Shadow Sneak
This is a Stall I made for a French Tour and which deals with Serperior pretty easily. Crobat with Infiltrator + Muk-A are 2 really good answers to Serperior (Scarf, SubSeed etc..). The only thing that can really mess with it.. guess what ?? It's this shitty Breloom if it's a Rock Tomb LO variant...
Not just straight up stall. Teams that use 4 walls and 2 offensive pokes etc. The thing is, it greatly restricts those offensive pokes to 9 natural revenge killers if megas are included, and if not, you have 5, most of which cannot kill. In other words, you're forced to slap a scarf on the back of your team. Which is why I made the compariosn to Xurk, which forced you to do something similar. If you're not using 100% stall(Which is reasonable if you want shorter games), and you're using a semi stall team or more defensive one, you'll need 2 pokes to 100% deal with serp,which is 1/3 of your team. Serperior is simply a threat that spirals out of control with one mistake, or even no mistakes at all. As I said earlier, there is no viable counter to Serp. You can't feel safe from Serp in one team slot. Chandelure? Hydreigon. Breloom even(Still broken, but to draw another comparison),Celebi,Maero,Swampert and so on. Now you look at Serperior. Serp,Muk(Leech Seed),Maggro(Runs right through, no recovery),Crobat(Glare),Revenge Killers(Glare,Seeds,Rocks).
If you’re running two offensive pokes, what’s wrong with running a scarf mon? You said earlier you shouldn’t have to slap an offensive mon on a team besides stuff like Mola, but then said you’re not talking about pure stall.
I mean, if you really need a dedicated Serp answer on a defensive team, run Goodra or something, since you dislike scarf mons. Serp obviously pressures defensive teams, but there are clearly answers to it.
I've been running a defensive roserade to take on Serp, it can also revenge kill Breloom and switch in on anything bar rock tomb. It also has spikes and natural cure to get around glare.
Roserade @ Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpD / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Energy Ball
- Synthesis
- Sludge Bomb
Why am I using this pokemon? It's RU isn't it? If there was no Serperior, I never would consider such a variant. Same thing with Goodra. It can be offensively pressured by nearly any offense staple bar Manectric-M and slower Scizors. Infernape's CC looks scary, so do Dracos from Hydra and Lati. Togekiss uses it as set up bait, and Malt doesn't really care for it. I understand all of you guys in when you say that Serperior does have answers, but I put another pokemon on my team solely for Serperior. If you check Latias,you probably got Hydreigon under control as well. Malt checks like six different pokemon at once. Basically it's like a reward system. This pokemon checks a top threat, and also checks many other threats. With Serperior, it's a different cause. I'll provide an example: Muk-A is very valuable because of Latias. Without a latias in the tier, Muk would fall in viability. Its because Latias is a centralizing force. With Serperior its a similar thing. Roserade/Vileplume/Obscure check takes care of Serp. Its value is defined by Serp's very existence. If Serp left, all these other pokemon would leave your team slot. Overall, I will try ways to take care of Serp, as it is not impossible to face. However, when you don't see a Serp on the opposing team, your obscure check becomes near useless. Same thing with Muk-A if you don't see a Psychic/Ghost type on the opposite team. It really declines in its impact on the battle. Breloom is the main focus of everyone here right now, so I'll probably talk more about Serperior when its time comes, but I really wanted to emphasize how Serperior has the most potential to be unhealthy out of nearly any threat in the tier besides Breloom.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-739937641 Useless Goodra
Roserade @ Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpD / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Energy Ball
- Synthesis
- Sludge Bomb
Why am I using this pokemon? It's RU isn't it? If there was no Serperior, I never would consider such a variant. Same thing with Goodra. It can be offensively pressured by nearly any offense staple bar Manectric-M and slower Scizors. Infernape's CC looks scary, so do Dracos from Hydra and Lati. Togekiss uses it as set up bait, and Malt doesn't really care for it. I understand all of you guys in when you say that Serperior does have answers, but I put another pokemon on my team solely for Serperior. If you check Latias,you probably got Hydreigon under control as well. Malt checks like six different pokemon at once. Basically it's like a reward system. This pokemon checks a top threat, and also checks many other threats. With Serperior, it's a different cause. I'll provide an example: Muk-A is very valuable because of Latias. Without a latias in the tier, Muk would fall in viability. Its because Latias is a centralizing force. With Serperior its a similar thing. Roserade/Vileplume/Obscure check takes care of Serp. Its value is defined by Serp's very existence. If Serp left, all these other pokemon would leave your team slot. Overall, I will try ways to take care of Serp, as it is not impossible to face. However, when you don't see a Serp on the opposing team, your obscure check becomes near useless. Same thing with Muk-A if you don't see a Psychic/Ghost type on the opposite team. It really declines in its impact on the battle. Breloom is the main focus of everyone here right now, so I'll probably talk more about Serperior when its time comes, but I really wanted to emphasize how Serperior has the most potential to be unhealthy out of nearly any threat in the tier besides Breloom.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-739937641 Useless Goodra
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Alright, I have to say I heavily disagree with a lot of the arguments being made in this thread.
First, re: Freeroamer, at this stage we are only doing council votes following a major shift. The reason we voted on Azumarill, Breloom and Serperior is because they were the three pokemon most impacted by Amoonguss's departure. This was not a general suspect test where we addressed anything we felt like looking at; it was specifically a chance to look at how the meta changed post-tier shift. Even if I agreed that Scizor was a suspect-worthy 'mon, this vote was not the time to review it. Also, I don't agree that Azumarill was banned on the strength of its versatility. Versatility does NOT make a 'mon broken or unhealthy. Almost every single person who voted ban on Azu specifically referenced the Choice Band set as the driving reason behind their vote.
Not really related to the discussion at hand, just something I wanted to bring up to explain why the council was only looking at those three 'mons.
Anyhow, onto Breloom (not really going to address Serp though many of these same points apply to Serp as well)...
Two major points:
1. A pokemon doesn't need to have some magic perfect counters that 100% counter all of its sets in order to not be broken. There are plenty of pokemon that, assuming every possible set/move and taking into account Z-moves, are nearly uncounterable. What they do need to have to remain in the tier is realistic counterplay.
2. Being forced to account for a pokemon in your teambuilding does NOT make something overly centralizing. Flat out, full stop. Top threats are top threats and if you want a good team you should absolutely account for them. Yes, when Breloom came into the tier you probably needed to change a bunch of your teams.
What this conversation seems to be missing is how easy it is to pressure Breloom. It has very few opportunities to come in. Of the 17 'mons in S through A ranks, it struggles to come in on literally every single one. Breloom has to try to come in on an aggressive double or wait until something dies. People mention Gliscor as something that it can come in on, but U-turn takes a chunk out and leaves 'loom in a terrible spot, unboosted Facade has roughly a 75% chance to 2HKO, Ice Fang has a chance to do it, and barring a 5-hit LO Bullet Seed or gimmicky sets like NG Ice, Breloom isn't KOing back. Considering that U-turn is on almost 30% of Gliscors and Facade or Ice Fang end up on another ~30% (usage stats last month say 27% run Uturn, 20% run Facade and 13% run Ice Fang), that is nowhere close to a safe switch. As far as the rest, they pretty much universally just straight up KO you barring Suicune (which means risking a Scald burn for non-pheal sets). Breloom isn't coming in easily and it's not generating free turns.
At absolute best, against a team with no good defensive answers to your particular set, Breloom will trade when it comes in. That's assuming it has the right moves, and assuming it nails every prediction correctly. It's extremely rare that Breloom sweeps a competent player (in the 33 SM games that have been played so far this UUPL, it hasn't happened once). Now, forcing trades is pretty good... that's mostly what we banned Azu for, right? Well, yeah, it definitely is good, but unlike Breloom, Azu actually had decent bulk and defensive typing to allow it way more opportunities to come in during a game. Again, see the above, and think about how exactly you're getting your Breloom into play.
Now, that doesn't mean that Breloom is bad or anything. It's a really good 'mon. Yes, you absolutely have to adjust your teambuilding to account for it, just like you need to build with Scizor or Latias or Gliscor or Manectric or Serperior in mind. Maybe that adjustment means something as simple as putting Sleep Talk on your Scarf Lati so you have a reliable way to deal with Spore, and maybe it means revamping your team entirely. If you've been watching UUPL games this year I think it's safe to say that Breloom has not magically invalidated slower teams like people are positing in this thread, and even post-Amoonguss they are finding plenty of ways to adjust around it.
First, re: Freeroamer, at this stage we are only doing council votes following a major shift. The reason we voted on Azumarill, Breloom and Serperior is because they were the three pokemon most impacted by Amoonguss's departure. This was not a general suspect test where we addressed anything we felt like looking at; it was specifically a chance to look at how the meta changed post-tier shift. Even if I agreed that Scizor was a suspect-worthy 'mon, this vote was not the time to review it. Also, I don't agree that Azumarill was banned on the strength of its versatility. Versatility does NOT make a 'mon broken or unhealthy. Almost every single person who voted ban on Azu specifically referenced the Choice Band set as the driving reason behind their vote.
Not really related to the discussion at hand, just something I wanted to bring up to explain why the council was only looking at those three 'mons.
Anyhow, onto Breloom (not really going to address Serp though many of these same points apply to Serp as well)...
Two major points:
1. A pokemon doesn't need to have some magic perfect counters that 100% counter all of its sets in order to not be broken. There are plenty of pokemon that, assuming every possible set/move and taking into account Z-moves, are nearly uncounterable. What they do need to have to remain in the tier is realistic counterplay.
2. Being forced to account for a pokemon in your teambuilding does NOT make something overly centralizing. Flat out, full stop. Top threats are top threats and if you want a good team you should absolutely account for them. Yes, when Breloom came into the tier you probably needed to change a bunch of your teams.
What this conversation seems to be missing is how easy it is to pressure Breloom. It has very few opportunities to come in. Of the 17 'mons in S through A ranks, it struggles to come in on literally every single one. Breloom has to try to come in on an aggressive double or wait until something dies. People mention Gliscor as something that it can come in on, but U-turn takes a chunk out and leaves 'loom in a terrible spot, unboosted Facade has roughly a 75% chance to 2HKO, Ice Fang has a chance to do it, and barring a 5-hit LO Bullet Seed or gimmicky sets like NG Ice, Breloom isn't KOing back. Considering that U-turn is on almost 30% of Gliscors and Facade or Ice Fang end up on another ~30% (usage stats last month say 27% run Uturn, 20% run Facade and 13% run Ice Fang), that is nowhere close to a safe switch. As far as the rest, they pretty much universally just straight up KO you barring Suicune (which means risking a Scald burn for non-pheal sets). Breloom isn't coming in easily and it's not generating free turns.
At absolute best, against a team with no good defensive answers to your particular set, Breloom will trade when it comes in. That's assuming it has the right moves, and assuming it nails every prediction correctly. It's extremely rare that Breloom sweeps a competent player (in the 33 SM games that have been played so far this UUPL, it hasn't happened once). Now, forcing trades is pretty good... that's mostly what we banned Azu for, right? Well, yeah, it definitely is good, but unlike Breloom, Azu actually had decent bulk and defensive typing to allow it way more opportunities to come in during a game. Again, see the above, and think about how exactly you're getting your Breloom into play.
Now, that doesn't mean that Breloom is bad or anything. It's a really good 'mon. Yes, you absolutely have to adjust your teambuilding to account for it, just like you need to build with Scizor or Latias or Gliscor or Manectric or Serperior in mind. Maybe that adjustment means something as simple as putting Sleep Talk on your Scarf Lati so you have a reliable way to deal with Spore, and maybe it means revamping your team entirely. If you've been watching UUPL games this year I think it's safe to say that Breloom has not magically invalidated slower teams like people are positing in this thread, and even post-Amoonguss they are finding plenty of ways to adjust around it.
Since when running Sleep Talk on some Pokemon doesn't show how unhealthy a Pokemon is ?
You have to trade a useful move (Healing Wish / Trick) solely to be able to deal with one Pokemon ?
One of the points which were put forward for Azumarill was the fact that people have to run Shed Shell on Alomomola to deal with it. It's exactly the same if people have to run Safety Goggles or Sleep Talk on their Pokemon.
I definitively disagree with all that have being said. It's not that easy to pressure Breloom since all the Pokemon that can pressure it can't switch on it if you have not scout its moveset. Yeah you have to do 5 hit with LO Bullet Seed to OHKO Gliscor but that also mean Gliscor can't come more than 2/3 times on Breloom (and if you Roost and Breloom stay and Bullet Seed then Gliscor is gone).
You have to trade a useful move (Healing Wish / Trick) solely to be able to deal with one Pokemon ?
One of the points which were put forward for Azumarill was the fact that people have to run Shed Shell on Alomomola to deal with it. It's exactly the same if people have to run Safety Goggles or Sleep Talk on their Pokemon.
I definitively disagree with all that have being said. It's not that easy to pressure Breloom since all the Pokemon that can pressure it can't switch on it if you have not scout its moveset. Yeah you have to do 5 hit with LO Bullet Seed to OHKO Gliscor but that also mean Gliscor can't come more than 2/3 times on Breloom (and if you Roost and Breloom stay and Bullet Seed then Gliscor is gone).
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