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so tl;dr this thing is basically the new gliscor. but the fact it is that new gliscor does not make it inherently broken. while this thing is a phenomenal pivot, wall, and all around versatile damage dealer, the fact is that it takes too much punishment (extent drastically varying) to be considered invincible or broken. centralizing? yes.
I understand where you're coming from with this comparison, but Mega Venusaur has traits that make it much more difficult to deal with than Gliscor. I'll admit Gliscor's total status immunity and amazing passive is something Mega Venusaur wishes it had, but Gliscor's special defense is pathetic compared with Mega Venusaur's. Pretty much any strong special attacker forced it out, so you weren't forced to slap a Specs Primarina or Kyurem on every team to break through. Hydreigon, Latias, Mega Pidgeot, Serperior (rip), and Gengar could all smash it for a OHKO or near OHKO with just their neutral STABs. Not to mention its 4x Ice-type weakness allowed you to slap a weak coverage move on a Pokemon that's otherwise walled and beat it (see Mega Manectric, Raikou, Mega Aerodactyl). We also have more Water-types alone in A- through S than we do Flying- and Psychic-types combined. So, I think it is an oversimplification to call Mega Venusaur the new Gliscor when it is much better than Gliscor ever was.
but as long as you have some sort of wallbreaker on your team this thing can drop no problem. you do not need a specific mon or strategy to blow it away as long as you keep offensive pressure.
I disagree with this. Mega Venusaur effortlessly walls half the tier and legitimately requires you to run a Flying- or Psychic-type to avoid losing to it on team preview. Just not Starmie/Slowbro since they drop to Giga Drain. Or only Moltres since it dies to Sludge Bomb + Rocks. Keeping "offensive pressure" is a lot easier said than done when 3-4 members of your team are helpless against it. Coverage moves are not enough since they won't OHKO without the STAB bonus, and in many cases Mega Venusaur will just kill you and recover half its lost health with Giga Drain (see Mega Sharpedo, Starmie, Mamoswine, Terrakion).
This part of my post isn't directed to you mangarrow, but I really dislike arguments based around wearing it down with Scald burns and Sand. It seems like people are forgetting that Scald only burns 30% of the time, so clicking it is a misplay more often than not against Venusaur teams. And if you so happen to burn it, congrats, it’s only a matter of time before it’s cured from its teammate's Heal Bell. I guess Empoleon and Tentacruel can afford to stay in and fish for a burn but if you fail after the 3rd Scald you're sitting at half health and made no progress whatsover in the game. Hippo is a free Giga Drain anyway so I don't get how it's a problem for it.
I understand where you're coming from with this comparison, but Mega Venusaur has traits that make it much more difficult to deal with than Gliscor. I'll admit Gliscor's total status immunity and amazing passive is something Mega Venusaur wishes it had, but Gliscor's special defense is pathetic compared with Mega Venusaur's. Pretty much any strong special attacker forced it out, so you weren't forced to slap a Specs Primarina or Kyurem on every team to break through. Hydreigon, Latias, Mega Pidgeot, Serperior (rip), and Gengar could all smash it for a OHKO or near OHKO with just their neutral STABs. Not to mention its 4x Ice-type weakness allowed you to slap a weak coverage move on a Pokemon that's otherwise walled and beat it (see Mega Manectric, Raikou, Mega Aerodactyl). We also have more Water-types alone in A- through S than we do Flying- and Psychic-types combined. So, I think it is an oversimplification to call Mega Venusaur the new Gliscor when it is much better than Gliscor ever was.
yes, i'll agree here. mega venu is for sure way better than gliscor, but the point of my comparison was to illustrate how versatile and a staple of a mon it was rather than what weaknesses and positive traits define it. in play, yes, they're both pivots, but the way you use them vastly differ. they both have their ups and downs, such as mega venu taking up a mega slot and lacking status immunity/passive recovery, and gliscor having a glaring weakness to one of the best offensive types in the game as you've mentioned. but at the end of the day i compare mega venu to gliscor not for what they have to offer but for what they contribute to the tier because it's obvious that they have completely different traits that vary extensively in play.
I disagree with this. Mega Venusaur effortlessly walls half the tier and legitimately requires you to run a Flying- or Psychic-type to avoid losing to it on team preview. Just not Starmie/Slowbro since they drop to Giga Drain. Or only Moltres since it dies to Sludge Bomb + Rocks. Keeping "offensive pressure" is a lot easier said than done when 3-4 members of your team are helpless against it. Coverage moves are not enough since they won't OHKO without the STAB bonus, and in many cases Mega Venusaur will just kill you and recover half its lost health with Giga Drain (see Mega Sharpedo, Starmie, Mamoswine, Terrakion).
not particularly. a lot of the mons that considerably dent (and even straight up knock out) mega venusaur are already really common in the tier, and a good majority of them are common picks when considering offensive mons for your team. keep in mind what i said earlier: that mega venu's hp percentage is usually far from the point where the calcs actually matter. stuff like mega shark and starmie can usually knock it out no problem in the case that the mega venu player thinks they can take the hit. there is no situation where you need specific threats and a specific playstyle to handle it because most people already run the tools they need to handle it with or without the mon in the tier.
This part of my post isn't directed to you mangarrow, but I really dislike arguments based around wearing it down with Scald burns and Sand. It seems like people are forgetting that Scald only burns 30% of the time, so clicking it is a misplay more often than not against Venusaur teams. And if you so happen to burn it, congrats, it’s only a matter of time before it’s cured from its teammate's Heal Bell. I guess Empoleon and Tentacruel can afford to stay in and fish for a burn but if you fail after the 3rd Scald you're sitting at half health and made no progress whatsover in the game. Hippo is a free Giga Drain anyway so I don't get how it's a problem for it.
the main reason people gauge stuff like residual damage is because of how huge a difference it can make in calculation. aside from crippling physical attackers burn damage can make the difference between knocking out a mon and not knocking out a mon, the same way leftovers does. not to mention with it you can cancel out passive recovery when you have no good opportunity to land a toxic. any kind of damage means something in this game. but i do get what you mean, it does seem trivial to gauge but that's why people factor in residual passive damage
ok so I've been looking through and I honestly think that most of this is shock value. I'd argue that the meta needed more time to adapt before a suspect was called, but since that's irrelevant now, I just wanna say that mega venusaur is an incredibly good mon. Building around good mons is not over-centralization. When I build teams, I need to make sure I don't get crushed by scizor, infernape, mamoswine, that I can break latias, blissey, etc. None of these pokemon are overcentralizing.
not particularly. a lot of the mons that considerably dent (and even straight up knock out) mega venusaur are already really common in the tier, and a good majority of them are common picks when considering offensive mons for your team.
This is exactly what I am getting at. Does Mega venusaur wall a lot of the tier? yes, but so does blissey. the thing that keeps them in check is the availability of mons that can put tremendous pressure on it, and that exists with mega venusaur as well.
Adaptation =/= Overcentralization.
Let the shock of a good mon fade away. There is a strong divide between S tier and broken.
The problem with Venusaur, as stated, isn't just it's ability to wall, but it's ability to hit back, in many cases very hard. Sludge Bombs take off large chunks of HP to anything that doesn't resist it. The Blissey comparison isn't very good because Blissey is much much more passive than Venusaur is. Blissey has dozens of reliable switch-ins(any ghost or steel type do just fine), Venusaur has two or three. Venusaur is a broken mon because it is both hard to KO and hard to defend against, something I don't believe any other mon in the tier can claim.
Got reqs, I'm gonna be voting No Ban, too lazy to write a whole new thing just gonna paste my council vote reasoning and talk about the team i used for reqs and how to play against Venusaur in practice since I don't think my team overprepped for it at all and I was able to deal with it pretty comfortably.
Venusaur on the other hand I believe the meta will adapt to and actually will have a positive effect on the revitalization of balance teams. While it does have scary natural bulk and a Toxic immunity, it will be forced to use it's limited Synthesis PP often from residual damage in the form of Scald burns, Hazards, Sand, and Volt Switch damage. The 3 attacks set is definitely a great all purpose tank with reasonable offensive potential unlike other similarly fat Pokemon, but it isn't going to force teams to run mandatory checks. Latias and Crobat (which was already getting better due to Amoonguss) will be reliable checks, and a multitude of offensive options like Mega Pidgeot, Kommo-o, Haxorus, and Nasty Plot Togekiss can force it out. Boosting sets other than Growth have been underwhelming for me and while they may win some matchups, will struggle with being stalled or offensively pressured too easily.
Swords Dance is better than I gave it credit for in that blurb, otherwise my mindset stays pretty much the same. Here's my team so you can see what I mean where I don't think its too over centralizing or hard to deal with.
Kommo-o @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
Stakataka @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Stone Edge
- Protect
So for this Bulky Offense I'm really only running one Venu switch with Kommo-o which is fantastic right now, but that's besides the point. My other counterplay is in Togekiss which can Revenge Kill but has trouble switching in because of Sludge Bomb, and Stakataka, which can force some Synthesis usage but won't ever win the 1v1 unless Venu got paralyzed by Starmie and you get good rolls. However, most of my team can take advantage of Venu coming in. Starmie (once revealed as bulky Venu should start coming in) still gets spins off as Venu comes in, Staka can rock on it. Despite me only having one dedicated switch in there's room for ways to abuse it without feeling pigeon holed into the same types of builds, I'd consider this fairly unique in the use of Bulky Starmie and Stakataka with a nice lure set on Kiss. Try your best to build around Venusaur instead of complaining that its too all around strong, there are ways to abuse it even without running 2-3 dedicated checks.
How can you call Latias a reliable check when it’s extremely prone to both Sludge Bomb poisons and to Pursuit, which you actually used on the team you used to get reqs? There are 4 risk free switches to a Venusaur I can see in this tier, by this I mean they don’t necessitate rocks off, don’t get hugely punished by Sludge Bomb poisons, don’t get pursuit trapped etc. Honestly try using Latias as your primary check in a ladder full of Venu+Krook+Bulky Steel teams and you’ll see it can’t be relied upon. I think your team was excellent vs Venusaur in fact, you had one of the four pokemon I was referencing earlier in Kommo, you have a reasonably solid revenge killer backed up by the fact starmie will probably para or burn it at some point, as well as your rocker getting rocks vs venu and providing an issue for it. I’ve never tried to make the point Venusaur is absolutely impossible to prep for, but I don’t find it a healthy state in the metagame where there’s a good case for the same pokemon to be both one of the premier defensive threats and one of the premier offensive threats in one set which is exactly what that 3 attacks plus synthesis set does.
The 4 I have are Kommo, Crobat, Blissey and Reuniclus btw. Feel free to let me know any more as long as they’re actually good in the tier, so no Dragalge etc. No hate to the ppl using Dragalge it was a cool idea, I just don’t think it was that great in practice.
Got reqs, I'm gonna be voting No Ban, too lazy to write a whole new thing just gonna paste my council vote reasoning and talk about the team i used for reqs and how to play against Venusaur in practice since I don't think my team overprepped for it at all and I was able to deal with it pretty comfortably.
Venusaur on the other hand I believe the meta will adapt to and actually will have a positive effect on the revitalization of balance teams. While it does have scary natural bulk and a Toxic immunity, it will be forced to use it's limited Synthesis PP often from residual damage in the form of Scald burns, Hazards, Sand, and Volt Switch damage. The 3 attacks set is definitely a great all purpose tank with reasonable offensive potential unlike other similarly fat Pokemon, but it isn't going to force teams to run mandatory checks. Latias and Crobat (which was already getting better due to Amoonguss) will be reliable checks, and a multitude of offensive options like Mega Pidgeot, Kommo-o, Haxorus, and Nasty Plot Togekiss can force it out. Boosting sets other than Growth have been underwhelming for me and while they may win some matchups, will struggle with being stalled or offensively pressured too easily.
Swords Dance is better than I gave it credit for in that blurb, otherwise my mindset stays pretty much the same. Here's my team so you can see what I mean where I don't think its too over centralizing or hard to deal with.
Kommo-o @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
Stakataka @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Stone Edge
- Protect
So for this Bulky Offense I'm really only running one Venu switch with Kommo-o which is fantastic right now, but that's besides the point. My other counterplay is in Togekiss which can Revenge Kill but has trouble switching in because of Sludge Bomb, and Stakataka, which can force some Synthesis usage but won't ever win the 1v1 unless Venu got paralyzed by Starmie and you get good rolls. However, most of my team can take advantage of Venu coming in. Starmie (once revealed as bulky Venu should start coming in) still gets spins off as Venu comes in, Staka can rock on it. Despite me only having one dedicated switch in there's room for ways to abuse it without feeling pigeon holed into the same types of builds, I'd consider this fairly unique in the use of Bulky Starmie and Stakataka with a nice lure set on Kiss. Try your best to build around Venusaur instead of complaining that its too all around strong, there are ways to abuse it even without running 2-3 dedicated checks.
Got reqs, I'm gonna be voting No Ban, too lazy to write a whole new thing just gonna paste my council vote reasoning and talk about the team i used for reqs and how to play against Venusaur in practice since I don't think my team overprepped for it at all and I was able to deal with it pretty comfortably.
Venusaur on the other hand I believe the meta will adapt to and actually will have a positive effect on the revitalization of balance teams. While it does have scary natural bulk and a Toxic immunity, it will be forced to use it's limited Synthesis PP often from residual damage in the form of Scald burns, Hazards, Sand, and Volt Switch damage. The 3 attacks set is definitely a great all purpose tank with reasonable offensive potential unlike other similarly fat Pokemon, but it isn't going to force teams to run mandatory checks. Latias and Crobat (which was already getting better due to Amoonguss) will be reliable checks, and a multitude of offensive options like Mega Pidgeot, Kommo-o, Haxorus, and Nasty Plot Togekiss can force it out. Boosting sets other than Growth have been underwhelming for me and while they may win some matchups, will struggle with being stalled or offensively pressured too easily.
Swords Dance is better than I gave it credit for in that blurb, otherwise my mindset stays pretty much the same. Here's my team so you can see what I mean where I don't think its too over centralizing or hard to deal with.
Kommo-o @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
Stakataka @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Stone Edge
- Protect
So for this Bulky Offense I'm really only running one Venu switch with Kommo-o which is fantastic right now, but that's besides the point. My other counterplay is in Togekiss which can Revenge Kill but has trouble switching in because of Sludge Bomb, and Stakataka, which can force some Synthesis usage but won't ever win the 1v1 unless Venu got paralyzed by Starmie and you get good rolls. However, most of my team can take advantage of Venu coming in. Starmie (once revealed as bulky Venu should start coming in) still gets spins off as Venu comes in, Staka can rock on it. Despite me only having one dedicated switch in there's room for ways to abuse it without feeling pigeon holed into the same types of builds, I'd consider this fairly unique in the use of Bulky Starmie and Stakataka with a nice lure set on Kiss. Try your best to build around Venusaur instead of complaining that its too all around strong, there are ways to abuse it even without running 2-3 dedicated checks.
Agree do not ban but find it hard to believe this is a good team because the stall matchup. It seems Kommo-o is the main hope, especially if they don't use Doublade or Mega Altataria but it's susceptible to Toxics and nothing takes advantage of Quagsire being dead except Kommo-o itself - so trades will favor the Quagsire user.
Wouldn't you say Heal Bell Togekiss makes a ton more sense?
How can you call Latias a reliable check when it’s extremely prone to both Sludge Bomb poisons and to Pursuit, which you actually used on the team you used to get reqs? There are 4 risk free switches to a Venusaur I can see in this tier, by this I mean they don’t necessitate rocks off, don’t get hugely punished by Sludge Bomb poisons, don’t get pursuit trapped etc. Honestly try using Latias as your primary check in a ladder full of Venu+Krook+Bulky Steel teams and you’ll see it can’t be relied upon. I think your team was excellent vs Venusaur in fact, you had one of the four pokemon I was referencing earlier in Kommo, you have a reasonably solid revenge killer backed up by the fact starmie will probably para or burn it at some point, as well as your rocker getting rocks vs venu and providing an issue for it. I’ve never tried to make the point Venusaur is absolutely impossible to prep for, but I don’t find it a healthy state in the metagame where there’s a good case for the same pokemon to be both one of the premier defensive threats and one of the premier offensive threats in one set which is exactly what that 3 attacks plus synthesis set does.
The 4 I have are Kommo, Crobat, Blissey and Reuniclus btw. Feel free to let me know any more as long as they’re actually good in the tier, so no Dragalge etc. No hate to the ppl using Dragalge it was a cool idea, I just don’t think it was that great in practice.
Pursuit invalidates a lot of defensive counterplay to the point where I don't know what to say other than outplay it? Two of your four reliable answers also get trapped in some form (Crobat to aerodactyl, Reun to dark types), all 3 of the pokemon we're both mentioning have ways to hit common Pursuit users coming in. Latias isnt like Kommo in that you can't slap it on and feel safe, but if you used other pokemon that can safely threaten it better offensively I would be fine with a Latias as my main switch in to tank. On a more offensive team where Latias could have support from Molt, Pidgeot, or whatever other strong breaker you're using you don't need to switch in to Venusaur continuously, just give your breakers enough time to find free switch ins and go to work. On those types of teams I think Latias absolutely would work and I'll build an example for you later.
Agree do not ban but find it hard to believe this is a good team because the stall matchup. It seems Kommo-o is the main hope, especially if they don't use Doublade or Mega Altataria but it's susceptible to Toxics and nothing takes advantage of Quagsire being dead except Kommo-o itself - so trades will favor the Quagsire user.
Wouldn't you say Heal Bell Togekiss makes a ton more sense?
The stall matchup isn't superb but I think you're ignoring a couple big things. SpD Stakataka had a great spread vs common Stall removers in Moltres Crobat Altaria, while even Tentacruel doesn't love to take stone edges although that's a tougher one. Flamethrower Toge can break past the Aggron they attempt to check it with easily, although it makes Blissey a little harder. I think Heal Bell is a reasonable trade for Flamethrower although Scizor becomes much harder to deal with, if you want more insurance vs stall. After you've chipped the Steel and they go Blissey Kommo-o Doubles become very valuable.
Pursuit invalidates a lot of defensive counterplay to the point where I don't know what to say other than outplay it? Two of your four reliable answers also get trapped in some form (Crobat to aerodactyl, Reun to dark types), all 3 of the pokemon we're both mentioning have ways to hit common Pursuit users coming in. Latias isnt like Kommo in that you can't slap it on and feel safe, but if you used other pokemon that can safely threaten it better offensively I would be fine with a Latias as my main switch in to tank. On a more offensive team where Latias could have support from Molt, Pidgeot, or whatever other strong breaker you're using you don't need to switch in to Venusaur continuously, just give your breakers enough time to find free switch ins and go to work. On those types of teams I think Latias absolutely would work and I'll build an example for you later.
The stall matchup isn't superb but I think you're ignoring a couple big things. SpD Stakataka had a great spread vs common Stall removers in Moltres Crobat Altaria, while even Tentacruel doesn't love to take stone edges although that's a tougher one. Flamethrower Toge can break past the Aggron they attempt to check it with easily, although it makes Blissey a little harder. I think Heal Bell is a reasonable trade for Flamethrower although Scizor becomes much harder to deal with, if you want more insurance vs stall. After you've chipped the Steel and they go Blissey Kommo-o Doubles become very valuable.
You can use Mega Aero alongside Venu now? /me scrambles
Sarcasm aside, Crobat isn’t really threatened by trappers that you can run alongside Venu unless you force a tight situation with CBzor or Krookodile, and even then it’s a tough call to make. Reuniclus is trapped super well by cbzor and Muk, but I always find pursuiting it with Krook a big gamble because if you get that call wrong you lose your Krook and perhaps your whole team because you’ve got a foetus shaped problem right in front of you. My comments were largely addressed at Krook plus Venu teams as they made up a staggering amount of the teams I played against in this suspect. Honestly if you are making the point that these pokemon can actually be trapped aswell then you’re making my argument for me and showing how when Venusaur is adequately supported, it’s beyond an acceptable degree of difficulty to handle in this tier.
I’ve tried using Latias on exactly the types of teams you’re proposing as the main response and my answer is that it simply isn’t enough. Obviously you don’t feel this way but I just can’t see how you look at a team like the one you’re using there and don’t see how that if you’re relying on Latias a large amount to carry the burden vs Venusaur, it’s going to be an uphill struggle because what the hell is it supposed to do vs a maxed out spdef Staka, twave starmie, Scarf Crunch Krook? It’s just going to get nowhere, pressured by Venusaur into an eventual trap, with Staka providing a reliable beating stick for it.
Venusaur has such a tremendous presence when it hits the field in terms of what it can handle and the punishment it can dish out, that supporting it becomes very easy. That exact archetype is super logical because you go down the route of Pursuit, Fly checks, hazards, removal to prevent chip damage and then filling in the defensive holes while adding extra pressure vs bulkier archetypes. There can be any one of a number of teams like that and yes they wouldn’t be viable without Venusaur but that doesn’t mean to say Venusaur is healthy for the tier, far from it.
Got finished with my reqs[uuvs free dnite] and i am most definitely voting ban. I have a good amount of issues with mega venusaur being in the tier and i will attempt to explain all of them without making this post a complete rant. Firstly, as a mon on its own, it has fantastic bulk and overall stats, a great movepool that does not need investment to punch holes through teams, especially by poisoning things on top on potentially leeching them. I have heard many arguments about how mega venusaur can be chipped down by hazards, scald burns, volt switch chip, even weather (LOL) and honestly idt i can reply w/o being offensive. People need to understand that venusaur does not occupy all 6 slots on a team. A team will have defog, it will have a ground type/electric immunity ON TOP of venusaur being a blanket check/resistance. You cannot assume said chip will happen and base venusaur's ''not broken'' status on that. Furthermore, it is more than obvious that in order to kill venusaur u need to hit it super-effectively. So this means u will need either flying or psychic stab. If you break that down even more, UU's actual flying types are mega pidgeot, mega aero(that does not 1vs1 bc aa does fuckin 50) and togekiss, whereas the usable psychic types consist of latias, (mega) slowbro, metagross and potentially reuniclus. Pidgeot, togekiss and latias are not switching in bc they get destroyed by sludge bomb with or w/o poison and get into a position to consistently roost. metagross and reuniclus do work as switchins, bar eq venusaur variants when it comes to the former. However, now u have metagross in vs a mvenu. How do u punish that? You dont. They just switch into an appropriate counter and u gain no ground but only chip on your switchin. Reuni from my experience does work as a reliable switchin, but the constant presence of scizors makes it really difficult to break holes, hence ''punishing'' the venusaur. Another point that i want to make, which honestly is more subjective, is that i have witnessed the presence of mega venusaur cause the rise of complete unmons in usage. Namely crobat and kommo. Crobat is an absolutely atrocious pokemon, since it has 2 jobs and fails miserably at both. Nuke something with z fly bc flying stab is broken in uu, which cannot happen with base 3 attack or w/e it has and click defog until the rocker either kills it, or burns it and then kills it. Kommo on the other hand is more interesting. Tldr it is a bad terrakion, but its main claim in fame was its immunity to h.voice in my eyes at least, which cannot happen anymore since m venu forces it to be bulletproof so it can get seeded and then beaten by the appropriate counter in the back. Finally, i left for last my biggest issue with venusaur and it is the one that pisses me off when people ignore it. When you add a pokemon in the tier that has little to no drawback to using it and blanket checks half the tier purely based on its stats alone, that mon is something far worse than broken. It is braindead. A ''competitive'' game requires thinking, outplaying and calculating moves. Venusaur invalidates that completely by just sitting in and just clicking buttons. It doesnt annoy me that it is broken, which it absolutely is, bc players of a certain skill level will find ways around it. What drives me crazy is that allows buttonclicking to evolve from a meme to an actual effective strategy.
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Got finished with my reqs and i am most definitely voting ban. I have a good amount of issues with mega venusaur being in the tier and i will attempt to explain all of them without making this post a complete rant. Firstly, as a mon on its own, it has fantastic bulk and overall stats, a great movepool that does not need investment to punch holes through teams, especially by poisoning things on top on potentially leeching them. I have heard many arguments about how mega venusaur can be chipped down by hazards, scald burns, volt switch chip, even weather (LOL) and honestly idt i can reply w/o being offensive. People need to understand that venusaur does not occupy all 6 slots on a team. A team will have defog, it will have a ground type/electric immunity ON TOP of venusaur being a blanket check/resistance. You cannot assume said chip will happen and base venusaur's ''not broken'' status on that. Furthermore, it is more than obvious that in order to kill venusaur u need to hit it super-effectively. So this means u will need either flying or psychic stab. If you break that down even more, UU's actual flying types are mega pidgeot, mega aero(that does 1vs1 bc aa does fuckin 50) and togekiss, whereas the usable psychic types consist of latias, (mega) slowbro, metagross and potentially reuniclus. Pidgeot, togekiss and latias are not switching in bc they get destroyed by sludge bomb with or w/o poison and get into a position to consistently roost. metagross and reuniclus do work as switchins, bar eq venusaur variants when it comes to the former. However, now u have metagross in vs a mvenu. How do u punish that? You dont. They just switch into an appropriate counter and u gain no ground but only chip on your switchin. Reuni from my experience does work as a reliable switchin, but the constant presence of scizors makes it really difficult to break holes, hence ''punishing'' the venusaur. Another point that i want to make, which honestly is more subjective, is that i have witnessed the presence of mega venusaur cause the rise of complete unmons in usage. Namely crobat and kommo. Crobat is an absolutely atrocious pokemon, since it has 2 jobs and fails miserably at both. Nuke something with z fly bc flying stab is broken in uu, which cannot happen with base 3 attack or w/e it has and click defog until the rocker either kills it, or burns it and then kills it. Kommo on the other hand is more interesting. Tldr it is a bad terrakion, but its main claim in fame was its immunity to h.voice in my eyes at least, which cannot happen anymore since m venu forces it to be bulletproof so it can get seeded and then beaten by the appropriate counter in the back. Finally, i left for last my biggest issue with venusaur and it is the one that pisses me off when people ignore it. When you add a pokemon in the tier that has little to no drawback to using it and blanket checks half the tier purely based on its stats alone, that mon is something far worse than broken. It is braindead. A ''competitive'' game requires thinking, outplaying and calculating moves. Venusaur invalidates that completely by just sitting in and just clicking buttons. It doesnt annoy me that it is broken, which it absolutely is, bc players of a certain skill level will find ways around it. What drives me crazy is that allows buttonclicking to evolve from a meme to an actual effective strategy.
Yeah Venu is a great mon. It has incredible bulk, a solid base 122 spa and a plethora of resistances. However venu is not exempt from its faults. On paper venu looks like its unkillable. But in actuality a great percentage of offensive threats in the meta are very capable of punishing it as it switches in (Especially with rocks up)
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 164-194 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega U-turn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 144-170 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 204-241 (56.1 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 271-321 (74.6 - 88.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 489-576 (134.7 - 158.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 352-417 (96.9 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 339-400 (93.3 - 110.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 169-201 (46.5 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock(Z move koes while in return)
252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cobalion: 180-212 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Psychic vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 236-278 (65 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 169-199 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock(forces you to synthesis which leaves you open to a wallbreaker like moltres coming in.)
252 SpA Rotom-Heat Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 222-264 (61.1 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 150-176 (41.3 - 48.4%) -- 71.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not to mention it can also volt out to gain momentum
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 161-191 (44.3 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 134-160 (36.9 - 44%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 220-259 (60.6 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Hydreigon Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 253-298 (69.6 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 164-192 (45.1 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 187-220 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 165-195 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 127-150 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gengar Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 213-252 (58.6 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 158-188 (43.5 - 51.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 182-216 (50.1 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(subroost can pp stall venu so it wins the 1 v 1 anyway)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 175-208 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 159-187 (43.8 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
once again you're forced to synthesis which drains momentum
252 Atk Sharpedo Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 146-174 (40.2 - 47.9%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 246-290 (67.7 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 156-186 (42.9 - 51.2%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 308-366 (84.8 - 100.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 103-121 (28.3 - 33.3%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Starmie Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 186-218 (51.2 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Hydro into psyshock kills with rocks up.)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psychic vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 260-307 (71.6 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 140-168 (38.5 - 46.2%) -- 21.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 252-296 (69.4 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 151-178 (41.5 - 49%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 142-169 (39.1 - 46.5%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 286-337 (78.7 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 240-284 (66.1 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Wing Attack vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 218-260 (60 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 196-231 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 201-237 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Swampert Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 183-216 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 186-220 (51.2 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 158-186 (49.5 - 58.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 228-268 (62.8 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Now I'm not saying venu can't come in on anything. No i'm saying its hard for venu to come in safely vs most offensive mons. It only does so on bulky waters,mega altaria, passive grounds like rhyp and hippo, and electric types such as mmane and raikou w/o extrasensory. I'm not saying mvenu isnt bulky, but its bulk while maintaining attacking power is grossly overstated as w rocks a ton of the tier can 2hko it. And yes I know venu can run max def so I calced for that as well.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 153-180 (42.1 - 49.5%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 204-240 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 364-429 (100.2 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 265-312 (73 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
While in return
0 Atk Venusaur-Mega Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 212-252 (65.4 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Power whip is petal blizzard btw)
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 158-188 (43.5 - 51.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(Yes scarf cant 2hko anymore but this mvenu is commonly ran on fatter builds anyway so ape will just u turn)
252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 139-164 (38.2 - 45.1%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 277-326 (76.3 - 89.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 127-150 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 253-298 (69.6 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(you only need to iron head it once before then this 2hkoes.)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 212-251 (58.4 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 146-173 (40.2 - 47.6%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 182-216 (50.1 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 156-184 (42.9 - 50.6%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Wing Attack vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 164-194 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (yes this loses to this one set 1 v 1 if you aren't running hone claws.
252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 150-177 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 263-309 (72.4 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This isn't even mentioning the setup mons that can use venu as setup fodder.
252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Giga Drain vs. +1 252 HP / 88 SpD Slowbro: 186-222 (47.2 - 56.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 218-258 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Giga Drain vs. +2 252 HP / 88 SpD Slowbro: 140-168 (35.5 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 270-320 (74.3 - 88.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Granted if rocks are up or bro is chipped significantly you do lose this.)
252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Giga Drain vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 152-182 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Cune either outspeeds or you tie allowing it to get off 2-3 cms and win the 1v1. Vincune stalls out giga w sub cm.
252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kommo-o: 62-73 (21.2 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 124-147 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 84-99 (27.8 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Yes I know venu can poison but if it doesn't latias sets up on it. Using it requires extensive counterplay to latias such as a pursuit trapper+ a fat steel as w/o it latias uses mvenu as a free setup or as a free switch to start wreaking havoc.
As you can see even with its maximum defensive investment it's still not hard to pressure w physical attackers into 2hko range of them either boosted or unboosted. And with maximum defensive investment mons such as crawdaunt, scizor, primarina, ect will be able to outspeed and either setup and kill in the case of sciz and sd craw or just flat out 2hko w psychic. It is clear that while mvenu is exceptionally bulky, it isn't the behemoth that people in this thread are making it out to be.
Now to move on to the other aspect of venu, its power. Mvenu sports a great 122 spa and with sludge bomb can pressure things that force it out such as moltres and mega pidgeot right? Well yes it can, but what's wrong with that? Being able to pressure common offensive checks is a trait shared by multiple s and a+ mons in uu. Latias runs hp fire to beat a very common offensive check to it in scizor. Scizor uses superpower to beat cobalion. Togekiss can opt to use its fairy stab to pressure electrics such as mmane. While yes those are considered coverage they serve the same purpose that sludge is serving on venu. Not to mention venus coverage is basically limited to giga sludge and hp fire. Which isn't the hardest combination of moves to wall. On fatter builds blissey hard stops most non growth sets and on more offensive builds theres options such as gengar, chandelure, crobat, nihilego. You also don't always need a guaranteed answer to it as offense can simply run something such as latias+coba or klefki+moltres or just run something such as crobat which walls every set it has.
Now I hear that many (but not all) of venus checks are pursuit weak. And yes this is true. And so? things such as chand and lati can potentially win pursuit 50/50s w the right prediction or in chandys case by just subbing. And even so there are multiple mons that appreciate pursuit to get rid of their best counters. Lucario, Np ape, celebi, nidoking. Its not even like all of mvenus checks are pursuit weak either. Yes mvenu is capable of pressuring its checks but you do have to build to be able to pressure its counters and checks just like you would with most other offensive mons you build around.
Its bulk looks amazing at first glance but in reality is exploitable do to its low speed, plethora of mons that can 2hko it or force it out and its recovery synthesis only having 8 pp. Yes it is a mon builds must prepare for but they don't need to use reuniclus or dragalge or any mon that comes in on everything to do so. You don't need to beat every mon in the game on paper. You don't need to run taunt gengar to counter blissey nor do you need fat rotom-h or bronzong on every team to beat mamo. Take a look at BL and you'll see that these mons are banned due to the extremely limited counterplay for them. Mdiancie can 2hko almost the entire meta bar bronzong (Which is 3HKOD) and Sdef hippo. Alakazam forces insane mindgames between guessing if its sash counter or lorb. Loom can spore most of its checks and even unorthodox sets that no one would run if loom wasnt in the meta like safety goggles scizor, Can still lose to other loom sets such as CB. Mvenu can't ever do anything to bat unless its sleep powder (still has to beware band sleep talk) Is forced out my a good portion of the tier, is easy for teams to pressure offensively and isn't impossible to come in on defensively. Hell even stuff like liquid ooze tentacruel can come in and setup hazards on it while stuff like vincune can setup on it and stall out its gigas. We need to stop this mentality that we should be banning mons simply just because you think its annoying or you hate having to run checks to a new premier threat. We should ban based on the counterplay available for it and how easy it is to fit checks and beat it.
Mvenus setup sets are paticuarly slow and struggle to do much vs offensive teams. Stall can also run mons such as wisp molt to beat curse and sd and bat to beat growth. Leech Seed is imo its most annoying set and still suffers from the same problems the other mvenu sets have only its more taunt/sub weak in exchange for annoying some checks such as bronzong and blissey. Also as many have pointed out, the things you run for mvenu would mostly still be run to help with amoongus as well meaning that venu isn't nessecarily forcing things that you wouldn't run anyways. Reun appreciates the drop off of alolan muk a lot while dragalge just isnt great tbh.
All in All i believe that mvenu is an excellent mon in this meta. But it is a far cry from the unkillable monster that 2hkoes everything that can come in and never dies to anything and walls "half the tier" that people in this thread make it out to be. It, like most top tier mons can be played around and is arguably easier to come in on and deal with than other s through a ranks such as terrakion and latias.
I am voting Do not Ban
P.S. Used 56 sdef because that lets you avoid the ohko from Mega Pidgeot
I don’t really get what all of those calcs are supposed to tell me. If I bring a HP only invested Venusaur into very strong things that hit it neutrally or can set up, my Venusaur will die. This is not really anything groundbreaking, but did you consider that out of the vast majority of the first list especially, in a 1v1 situation Venusaur is going to win those battles? It’s all very well saying something like Terrakion OHKOes once it’s set up, or that CB straight up 2HKOes with edge, but that doesn’t change the fact that you will still need something to be able to come into Venusaur, and pressure it head on because if your only means of taking it down can’t beat it without relying on set up beforehand, you’ll still lose in a lot of matchups. That first list also includes a load of mons that are outsped by the common offensive venu set, like cb pert, Adamant Scizor, Primarina so while they’ll hurt to come into, Venu will still come out on top. This mon 1v1s a huge amount of the tier, threatens another large amount of the tier trying to switch into it and realistically has very little guaranteed counterplay. It’s also extremely easy to support to patch its flaws, partly because it doesn’t have many and partly because by exerting both significant offensive and defensive pressure, it gives a lot more freedom in building when using it. I don’t think anyone has tried to make the argument that Venu has Slowbro like bulk where even the most ridiculously strong stuff (on the physical side in Slowbro’s case) bounces off, but in 1v1 situations and with very minimal support (Pursuit+hazard removal+stealth rock) it’s capable of having a huge effect on games regardless of whether you carry these pokemon or not.
Regarding the max HP / max Def set, while I think Venu stall isn’t a great pick due to it bringing significantly less utility to the archetype than the other available mega evolutions, setup is an essentially moot argument because these teams will virtually always pair it alongside an unaware mon, and I really wouldn’t use this set outside of full stall.
Contrary to my last post, in the previous np thread, in which I said that I believe Mega Venusaur has a place in the tier, this post is about why I am going to vote ban.
UU hasn't been so enjoyable for me lately... maybe it's due to Serperior and Gliscor rising and not because of Mega Venusaur, but Mega Venusaur isn't making it better. Its defensive typing is really good, as it allows it to naturally check top UU threats including Primarina and Mega Altaria, but that typing in conjunction with its immense bulk allows it to blanket check an amazing majority of the metagame, all in just one slot, and with really great offensive capabilities - its two STABs in combination with Fire coverage grants Mega Venusaur with perfect coverage that is coming from a high base Special Attack.
Despite that, I do not think that Mega Venusaur is necessarily broken as Mega Diancie was, but I do think it is unhealthy for the metagame. It just fits well into so many playstyles and provides too much for each playstyle and only takes one slot, which really is the main reason I am going to vote ban.
Regardless of Mega Venusaur, I want to discuss a Pokemon I've loved to use this suspect ladder.
Toxicroak is pretty good right now. It takes advantage of the new metagame so well, especially Gliscor's rise. The team I used it with (one of the teams I used to get reqs with) has a Primarina. Primarina + Toxicroak make an amazing core, as Toxicroak is literally able to set up on any of Primarina's answers and turn into an immediate threat. Gunk Shot hits surprisingly hard, and Sucker Punch just pretty much completes Toxicroak's coverage and allows it to hit faster threats such as Celebi and Mega Aerodactyl. Toxicroak usually got me about one to three kills every game, which is just amazing. I really recommend you all to use it.
Also, Honchkrow is back! This team is a great solution to get fast points in the low ladder, as I used it in the low ladder and went 20-1. This team favors Gliscor and Serperior rising and Honchkrow is a great check to Mega Venusaur, so why not?
i'm voting ban, i don't like how splashable mvenu is. its defensive utility in conjunction with its offensive presense is too much for the tier. having a mon be borderline unkillable isn't broken in its own right, but adding an unkillable mon that also bops teams with its offensive coverage and stats is not healthy.
offensive venu has legitimately only two viable switch-ins in kommo/crobat, and having only two means of viable counterplay is not sufficient enough for a mon to be healthy and to justify it staying in the metagame. i don't consider latias nor moltres counterplay because moltres instantly loses to sludge+rocks and latias suffers from the same problem while being easily trapped by krook/muk, which i see slapped on next to every mvenu build just based on how, as cbu puts it, braindead, the playstyle is.
in terms of metagross/reuniclus, while cool, their utility is severely limited outside of checking mvenu. i made a reuni team, lost two ladder games, and got super pissed bc of how cheeks reun is outside of checking mvenu. niche mons serving as counterplay does not mean that a mon has viable counterplay. using reuni/meta to justify mvenu reminds me of people using inner focus umbreon as a means of z-hh rachi counterplay, and z-hh rachi was broken beyond belief.
another factor i don't see people considering is how little exposure to mvenu we've had. the mbro suspect was extremely split at the time, and the vote was relatively close. it was hard for the community to get an accurate glimpse of the mon because of how little exposure we'd had to it. i feel like the mvenu vote has the potential to swing in a similar direction, only this time with people not seeing how centralizing mvenu can become. the reason mvenu wasn't a qb was because the tier had no exposure to the mon, but mvenu is infinitely more versatile and overbearing than mbro ever was. because of this, i'd prefer to err on the side of caution and ban mvenu, rather than let it remain in the tier. i'm sure there are sets that haven't been thought up that would easily be more problematic than growth/synth 3 attacks/leech seed already are.
I’ve got a question about the BL list- is there a point where we could say ‘hey, there’s a ton of stuff in BL that could balance each other out’ and try tests introducing multiple mobs back into the tier?
I’m not sure we’re there right now, but the thought occurred to me while reading about venu counterplay
I don’t really get what all of those calcs are supposed to tell me. If I bring a HP only invested Venusaur into very strong things that hit it neutrally or can set up, my Venusaur will die. This is not really anything groundbreaking, but did you consider that out of the vast majority of the first list especially, in a 1v1 situation Venusaur is going to win those battles? It’s all very well saying something like Terrakion OHKOes once it’s set up, or that CB straight up 2HKOes with edge, but that doesn’t change the fact that you will still need something to be able to come into Venusaur, and pressure it head on because if your only means of taking it down can’t beat it without relying on set up beforehand, you’ll still lose in a lot of matchups. That first list also includes a load of mons that are outsped by the common offensive venu set, like cb pert, Adamant Scizor, Primarina so while they’ll hurt to come into, Venu will still come out on top. This mon 1v1s a huge amount of the tier, threatens another large amount of the tier trying to switch into it and realistically has very little guaranteed counterplay. It’s also extremely easy to support to patch its flaws, partly because it doesn’t have many and partly because by exerting both significant offensive and defensive pressure, it gives a lot more freedom in building when using it. I don’t think anyone has tried to make the argument that Venu has Slowbro like bulk where even the most ridiculously strong stuff (on the physical side in Slowbro’s case) bounces off, but in 1v1 situations and with very minimal support (Pursuit+hazard removal+stealth rock) it’s capable of having a huge effect on games regardless of whether you carry these pokemon or not.
Regarding the max HP / max Def set, while I think Venu stall isn’t a great pick due to it bringing significantly less utility to the archetype than the other available mega evolutions, setup is an essentially moot argument because these teams will virtually always pair it alongside an unaware mon, and I really wouldn’t use this set outside of full stall.
The calcs show how its not this unbeatable wall that walls half the tier. On most if not all of those calcs if it comes in it is forced to synthesis which gives the opponent time to just force it out and gain momentum. The point of the calcs was to show that its not impossible to pressure venu into not coming in as a good majority of the meta is capable of it. Also i never said these mons 1 v 1 it but some of them can come in on a predicted sludge, giga or hp fire and force venu out. And mons isn't entirely 1 v 1. As you mentioned venu has teamates and so does the person fighting it. I mentioned that there are ways to get mons in that force it out. I also metnioned that it has counters such as pairing a flying w a steel or you can run something such as chandelure or crobat and always force it out. Also from what i've seen venus creep for adamant sciz and crawdaunt while The calc was for timid primarina. But it is still forced to synthesis even if it comes in on modest because
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 118-139 (32.5 - 38.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Psychic vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 258-304 (71 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even if you predict which move it uses right you still have to synthesis to be able to take it next time it comes in. Also venu doesn't even have guaranteed ohkoes on either terrak or prim(does get it on prim after rocks) therefore in a 1 v 1 scenario prim and sd terrak can win provided they are at full of course. Also terrak beats seed sets that don't use giga.
And how much of the tier it 1 v 1s is overrated. Yes it can beat mons such as terrak 1 v 1 if its not sd z edge. It loses however to most flyings and pyschics, as well as nihilego(needs lorb or painsplit though and hates seed), gengar, chandelure, stakataka, coba(needs z steel), suicune, kyurem, necrozma, bronzong(unless its leech seed), togekiss, volcanion, haxorus, hydreigon(if lorb specs or z move), beedrill mega, Volcanion, Raikou,(these 2 can't come in on much though, also raikou needs cm), houndoom-mega, reuniclus, slowbro, and tentacruel if you run acid spray. It doesn't 1 v 1 most of the tier nor is it impossible to come in on with proper prediction or by running one of its counters such as crobat. And yes venu can have 5 other teamates to help weaken its checks. The opponent also has 5 other teamates and can run more than 1 thing that forces out mvenu. If you run only empoleon for latias and you run into latias+magneton, is that the fault of your building or latias for being able to be run with stuff that traps or wears down its checks.
Also agree with your point on max def venu. Max def venus are much easier to come in on and take advantage of however. I only did those calcs to show that even with max def a good portion of physical mons still can not let it in especially w rocks up. Meaning that less bulkier spreads that run some defense are still just as liable to most of the same threats.
I’ve got a question about the BL list- is there a point where we could say ‘hey, there’s a ton of stuff in BL that could balance each other out’ and try tests introducing multiple mobs back into the tier?
I’m not sure we’re there right now, but the thought occurred to me while reading about venu counterplay
Hey, nice question! Generally, the tier leaders try to suspect things one by one (or occasionally two by two in the case of Mega Gallade and Mega Heracross, and Buzzwole and Breloom) so that "broken checks broken" isn't a formula that people follow when deciding on voting. Take the Buzzwole and Breloom suspect for example. Buzzwole and Sap Sipper Azumarill, two (arguably) broken mons that checked Breloom, made it seem not broken to many people, so it got freed by a large majority. Several months later, when Azumarill left and one of its primary checks in Amoonguss left, it was re-suspected after a DNB council vote and was banned by a majority of 83%.
As mentioned earlier, broken checks broken is generally a formula the UU council tries to avoid, and for good reason. Having multiple (potentially) unhealthy mons in one tier in an attempt to balance each other out might seem effective on paper, but in practice, it generally isn't good.
In this post, first I will highlight some of the discussion on why people are for banning Venusaur. First, it has been stated that Venusaur is too restraining for team building because of the combination of stellar bulk and above average power for a wall. Second, people have found Venusaur too versatile and able to circumvent most responses bar Crobat. Lastly, it has been mentioned that Venusaur makes games too easy or brainless "button clicking."
After identifying the core proposals of these arguments, I will respond why the first point is the strongest point but is still not persuasive for a Venusaur ban and why the last two points do not hold weight when looking at UU with all threats considered.
Lastly, I will explain my thoughts on why Venusaur is a healthy presence in UU, benefiting the metagame far more than hurting it; specifically, it keeps Manectric + Scizor cores in check, gives balance much needed utility, and helps balance out the deluge of bulky waters UU has.
Three reasons people want to ban Venusaur:
1) Venusaur is too restraining for team building because of the combination of stellar bulk and above average power for a wall
I disagree with this. Mega Venusaur effortlessly walls half the tier and legitimately requires you to run a Flying- or Psychic-type to avoid losing to it on team preview. Just not Starmie/Slowbro since they drop to Giga Drain. Or only Moltres since it dies to Sludge Bomb + Rocks. Keeping "offensive pressure" is a lot easier said than done when 3-4 members of your team are helpless against it. Coverage moves are not enough since they won't OHKO without the STAB bonus, and in many cases Mega Venusaur will just kill you and recover half its lost health with Giga Drain (see Mega Sharpedo, Starmie, Mamoswine, Terrakion).
In the end, I think MVenu pressures really much teambuilding and also the games, because you can't Toxic so, if you lose the only members of your team able to hit it hard, you automatically lose. Yeah, you can try to burn and chip it, but in the meantime you have to switch it simply does what he wants and seeds/poisons/sleep powders/damages your team. For these several reasons, I think the UU metagame would be better without it and I'm voting Ban.
People have correctly noted that the best way to KO Venusaur is through super effective moves, but since there are only 2 of them, there is a constraint in team building. Because of the stellar bulk and Synthesis, it's difficult to slowly chip Venusaur with weak moves like you could a Swampert for example - nobody is saying you need a Grass type on every team just to KO Swampert. And because of the above average power, many offensive threats to Venusaur have to play a risky game versus it such as Terrakion being KOd by Grass STAB.
2) Venusaur is too versatile and able to circumvent most of its responses bar Crobat
My thoughts on Mvenu are this. It is such a centralizing Pokemon to the meta. It can fit on every team type, its versatility and viability are unmatched in UU (Scizor being a close 2nd). Mvenu is fat, it is hard to break and it can threaten every single one of its checks with Sludge Bomb poisons, Leech Seed, or Sleep Powder. Swords Dance and Growth also pose huge offensive threats. Mvenu took Gliscors place as UU's crutch Pokemon. By crutch Pokemon I mean a Pokemon that can fit on every team and is very easy to use and keep alive. Every team has to have a hard counter to Mvenu which to me makes it broken. I am voting ban.
Venusaur has the stats to back up whatever type of set it chooses according to this point, and because it can choose what set it wants to run, it can also choose what counters it. If this is the case, then Venusaur is hardly countered by anything if Sludge Bomb poisons are factored in.
3) Venusaur makes games brainless "button clicking"
Finally, i left for last my biggest issue with venusaur and it is the one that pisses me off when people ignore it. When you add a pokemon in the tier that has little to no drawback to using it and blanket checks half the tier purely based on its stats alone, that mon is something far worse than broken. It is braindead. A ''competitive'' game requires thinking, outplaying and calculating moves. Venusaur invalidates that completely by just sitting in and just clicking buttons. It doesnt annoy me that it is broken, which it absolutely is, bc players of a certain skill level will find ways around it. What drives me crazy is that allows buttonclicking to evolve from a meme to an actual effective strategy.
This point makes a big claim, basically that Venusaur lowers the amount of skill because it's stats and typing and overall unique characteristics are too good. This line of reasoning is so strong, that it claims that Venusaur makes button clicking "an actual effective strategy."
These arguments are insufficient to ban Venusaur because:
1) All S rank threats are going to be restricting as well as all metagame threats, Venusaur isn't actually nearly as restricting as other threats
Plenty of concepts restrain building; the most obvious example is that nearly all teams are required to use Stealth Rocks. However, relatively few people think SR should be banned. Thus, just because a concept is extremely restrictive (Stealth Rocks is 99% required), doesn't mean it is broken. Right now in UU, we have many constraints that are relatively uncontroversial: nearly every team has a Steel type or at least Fairy type for Latias, all but the most offensive teams have a Volt Switch immunity, all but the bulkiest teams have a fast Pokemon or priority to cover the plethora of threats in between base 70-108.
Would is be wrong to say you now have to add a Flying or Psychic type to the mix? I sincerely doubt this, Latias is already one of the top Pokemon independent of Venusaur. There are many Psychic and Flying Pokemon that can badly damage Venusaur.
Even if you found this problematic, I am very hesitant to say all teams need a Flying or Psychic type now. Defensively, Blissey counters the vast majority of Venusaur while offensively Kommo-o has only been gaining in viability even before Venusaur. Choice Banded and Specs moves almost invariably 2HKO or OHKO Venusaur, regardless if they are super effective while Pressure users like Suicune and Kyurem can fairly easily stall Venusaur out, even if they struggle switching in. Even Terrakion can survive a Giga Drain from max Special Attack Terrakon most of the time and KO with boosted Z Stone Edge.
In short, there are ways to kill Venusaur outside of Flying and Psychic Pokemon and even if there wasn't, the fact there are good Psychic and Flying Pokemon already like Latias, Metagross, and Pidgeot means Venusaur isn't too much of a constraint.
2) Venusaur isn't really versatile at all and actually can almost never get past many of its counters
The fact of the matter is, Venusaur's most reliable set is Giga Drain + Sludge Bomb + Hidden Power Fire + Synthesis with max Special Attack and some HP and speed. Venusaur hardly ever deviates from this because Grass + Poison by itself is a poor offensive typing, being walled most notably by Scizor but also nearly every other Steel. Yes Venusaur can run other sets, but they are overall worse than this set because they'll lack coverage.
A comparison to Latias is the best way to argue against this point. Latias truly is versatile and it actually can get past most of its counters - CM Psyshock beats Blissey while Z Thunder beats most steels for example. Even Reflect Type can beat Muk-Alolan. This is something that is truly versatile and threatening offensively because of it's superior speed tier. Can we honestly say that Mega Venusaur is versatile compared to this? Not only does Venusaur have to predict when Flying types and Latias come in, as Poison is a poor offensive type to spam, but it also has to hope for the 30% Poison chance. And still, this won't beat counters like Zen Headbutt Metagross.
Let's keep perspective guys, threats like Latias, Lucario, Kommo-o, and Celebi - those are versatile Pokemon. Venusaur just runs the same set the vast majority of the time, and when it deviates from that set, it gives up very important coverage.
3) You think Venusaur is brainless? Try Regenerator Amoonguss
I doubt Venusaur is a brainless Pokemon. It takes skill to use and predict when to Sludge Bomb on Empoleons for example, predicting a switch to a Latias or Flying type.
On turn 5, I have to make a good prediction, if also nearly riskless, in order to get a free KO with Pidgeot after my opponent plays well early on and weakens my only Pidgeot counter, Empoleon. But I make a bad decision later, letting Primarina die on turn 9 instead of going to Latias and after losing Krookodile on turn 12, I'm in an iffy position. A game deciding turn happens on turn 15 - I have to predict with Venusaur either to Synthesis/Sludge Bomb if my opponent switches to CB Infernape or Hidden Power Fire if my opponent U-Turns. I predict wrong and end up losing because of it.
Exactly how was my position so brilliant because of Venusaur that I could end up "button clicking" for the win? This game had clear turns where predictions had to be made with Venusaur, and although good predictions were rewarded, lack of predictions punished me and helped contribute to my loss.
If Pokemon were banned because they were brainless, then we should be suspecting things like Volt-Turn cores and Regenerator cores, which in my opinion are clearly more brainless. If anything, the rise of Amoonguss which is bound to happen if Venusaur gets banned will contribute to some brainless strategy, since it's harder to punish Regenerator Pokemon for bad predictions (for example, Amoonguss can switch in on Primarina's Psychic and not be totally lost).
Venusaur is good for the metagame because:
1) It helps keep Manectric-Scizor cores in check
With the loss of Gliscor, which forced Manectric to choose between Hidden Power Ice and Grass, Manectric-Scizor cores would be stronger than ever if it wasn't for Venusaur which can counter both Pokemon and stay in on their Volt-Turn cycle. Personally, I find Venusaur a great balancing Pokemon that stops these threats from becoming too strong. Because this was the reasoning to keep Scizor in the tier - as it helps keep threats like Terrakion in check - I see no reason why it shouldn't apply to Venusaur as well
2) It gives balance a very strong tool
Many players, although certainly not all, have long believed balance to be the worst play styles while bulky offense being the strongest play style. Venusaur can easily help out balance teams by serving as a blanket check to threats that could badly annoy balance like Crawdaunt and Primarina. Meanwhile, it's not overbearing on either balance nor bulky offense because of the Mega limitations, some of it's best offensive partners would be things like the aforementioned Mega Aerodactyl or Mega Aggron on balance, but fortunately these potentially broken combinations cannot be used because Mega mechanics.
3) Mega Venusaur keeps bulky waters in check and even breaks through Alo-Quag-Bliss
There is no shortage of bulky waters in this tier so excuse me if I'm not crying out in sympathy for the water types - other factors like their good bulk and typing will mean that Venusaur or not, bulky waters are not about to leave our tier. Additionally, with Growth Synthesis sets, Venusaur can be an important tool in making Alo-Quag-Blissey cores evolve further into different stall archetypes. I doubt anyone really thinks that Growth set is broken though, because it gets walled by Steels.
I carefully considered the main contentions that were made to ban Venusaur. By far, the most persuasive argument is that Venusaur is too restricting for teambuilding because it has plenty of basis in truth - nobody can deny Venusaur puts building restraints in the metagame. But because the points were somewhat exaggerated and illogical- "if you lose the only members of your team able to hit it hard, you automatically lose", this is exaggerated because Venusaur can still be walled and illogical because it can be applied to any Pokemon - the arguments aren't really strong enough persuade me to ban Venusaur.
By far, the most persuasive argument is that Venusaur is too restricting for teambuilding because it has plenty of basis in truth - nobody can deny Venusaur puts building restraints in the metagame. But because the points were somewhat exaggerated and illogical- "if you lose the only members of your team able to hit it hard, you automatically lose", this is exaggerated because Venusaur can still be walled and illogical because it can be applied to any Pokemon - the arguments aren't really strong enough persuade me to ban Venusaur.
this tbh
That argument of "if I lose x, and the other guy has y which x is supposed to kill, I lose" can be applied to nearly every mon in S and (to a lesser extent) A rank. If that was a convincing argument to ban M-Venu, it would also be an argument to ban Scizor, Mega Manectric, Mega Aerodactyl, Terrakion, Mamoswine, and many other threats that would make the already large UUBL into the size of a tier and a half.
Learn to adapt to threats and stop treating everything that drops from OU like the Antichrist's second coming.
Also it does not have wonder guard. I know noone has implicitly said that it has wonder guard, but I'm picking up on tones that it does for some reason. You can still hit it with normal or not very effective moves and it'll still do damage. I have some calcs confirming it does not in fact have wonder guard, with the bulkiest spread that should be around down here.
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 177-211 (53.4 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 204-241 (61.6 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 169-200 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 168-198 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
UUVS Holbofa - I honestly haven't touched UU at all this generation (or any generation) until the suspect test and from what I've played Mega-Vennusaur is really hard to handle when its built around with good partners. While I don't have a great understanding of the UU meta from lack of experience I can tell that it can dominate games once its, IMO, only counter in Crobat is picked off. As well as if any of its good checks in Moltres and Latias (Togekiss too) get whittled down and or trapped. Its ability to pressure so many of the pokemon in the tier while having great sustain is too hard to deal with if it's on a well-made team. Setup mons also have a nice chance against M-Venu but that's only usually only on the switch.
In all honesty, I just want to spam Crawdaunt whenever I play UU and I don't want to worry about the mon the entire game wondering if it has speed or not. I got so impatient to vote this monster out of here I just gambled and still had a clean 80.
UUVS Holbofa - I honestly haven't touched UU at all this generation (or any generation) until the suspect test and from what I've played Mega-Vennusaur is really hard to handle when its built around with good partners. While I don't have a great understanding of the UU meta from lack of experience I can tell that it can dominate games once its, IMO, only counter in Crobat is picked off. As well as if any of its good checks in Moltres and Latias (Togekiss too) get whittled down and or trapped. Its ability to pressure so many of the pokemon in the tier while having great sustain is too hard to deal with if it's on a well-made team. Setup mons also have a nice chance against M-Venu but that's only usually only on the switch.
In all honesty, I just want to spam Crawdaunt whenever I play UU and I don't want to worry about the mon the entire game wondering if it has speed or not. I got so impatient to vote this monster out of here I just gambled and still had a clean 80.
I've read this entire thread and don't have a super strong opinion on M-Venusaur's fate in the tier one way or the other, but this logic doesn't make much sense to me: "I just want to spam Crawdaunt whenever I play UU." I think pokeisfun said it best about a lot of mons will put some (but not too much) constraints on team building, but the tier should learn and adapt to said threats (some paraphrasing in there, but the point still stands I think). A meta is not meant to always be the same from start of generation to end; playstyles ebb and flow in viability, certain sets become better or worse on a specific mon (sometimes in correlation with a new mon entering/exiting the tier), etc. If you want to keep "spamming Crawdaunt," then learn to adapt the team to still handle Venusaur (I know others in this thread have ways of chipping Venusuar; if they're right or not, I'm not entirely sure), or perhaps this means Crawdaunt is less viable now in UU. Sometimes that's the way it is in a tier; UU is not supposed to protect any one pokemon or play style to keep it more relevant and viable.
Also, the opening statement kind of worries me from a tiering perspective. There is an admission of inexperience with the tier, having said he/she hasn't touched UU at all this generation or in any generation. It's a little worrisome to me that people who have never played (and likely won't play after this suspect) the tier aside from a quick burst for a suspect have such a large say in a decision that seems like it will come down to a few votes. Yes, democracy is good and important and all that jazz, but I would hate for an uninvested electorate to have such a large impact on something like this, especially when they won't have to deal with the aftermath. I'm not sure how you can fix an issue like that, but I wanted to voice my concern on the process itself after reading that last post.
I've read this entire thread and don't have a super strong opinion on M-Venusaur's fate in the tier one way or the other, but this logic doesn't make much sense to me: "I just want to spam Crawdaunt whenever I play UU." I think pokeisfun said it best about a lot of mons will put some (but not too much) constraints on team building, but the tier should learn and adapt to said threats (some paraphrasing in there, but the point still stands I think). A meta is not meant to always be the same from start of generation to end; playstyles ebb and flow in viability, certain sets become better or worse on a specific mon (sometimes in correlation with a new mon entering/exiting the tier), etc. If you want to keep "spamming Crawdaunt," then learn to adapt the team to still handle Venusaur (I know others in this thread have ways of chipping Venusuar; if they're right or not, I'm not entirely sure), or perhaps this means Crawdaunt is less viable now in UU. Sometimes that's the way it is in a tier; UU is not supposed to protect any one pokemon or play style to keep it more relevant and viable.
Also, the opening statement kind of worries a tirng perspective. There is an admission of inexperience with the tier, having said he/she hasn't touched UU at all this generation or in any generation. It's a little worrisome to me that people who have never played (and likely won't play after this suspect) the tier aside from a quick burst for a suspect have such a large say in a decision that seems like it will come down to a few votes. Yes, democracy is good and important and all that jazz, but I would hate for an uninvested electorate to have such a large impact on something like this, especially when they won't have to deal with the aftermath. I'm not sure how you can fix an issue like that, but I wanted to voice my concern on the process itself after reading that last post.
X) I used Crawdaunt the entire time but, truthfully, you're correct since I only really only played the tier because the reqs were easy and I like using Crawdaunt
Oh boy this thing. Venusaur is obviously a great mon and we all know that. This thing , in my opinion, should be banned. Its able to beat anything that doesnt have a super effective stab against it, which is insane. This has been said a thousands times, but I would also like to add that this means it cannot be lured in by anything without a crazy supersonic skystrike or shattered psyche set. All the biggest walls in any tier have ways to lure it in without a crazy z move. In OU, people could run brave Bird Koko to lure it. In UU, we really dont have that option The only thing is maybe Zen Headbutt from Terrak, but even then that is a stretch because Venu can be paired with pallosand (which is a thousands times better switch in). This means people can just play extemely safe with their Venusar and no need to switch in unless it 100% counters it. This makes teams way of dealing with Saur much easier. Smart Saur players will clearly tell what is their Saur checks and play around it.
Ps
I could be wrong on this , but if anyone has a way to lure Venu w/o a z move lmk.
Anyways, I have seen people post about flying types that can kinda take on Saur and I would like to add one. Torn-I is an amazing addition that can be added onto this list. Its best in offense because it has the ability to wall break and set up prankster tailwind. Its tough to switch into a life orb hurricane coming from this beast. It also has an incredible speed tier puts it above threats like Latias, Gengar, Terrakion, Ape, and Coballion. Then After its done its job, it can set up a prankster tailwind that can help aid its teamates past its team. Its mixed set is one of the only special attacking mons that can 2hko Blissey with a life orb superpower. Then if u wanted to, you could use a defiant set to punish defogers, but I have defiantly found the prankster set to be much more useful. Its underrated at the moment imo and is defiantly worth a try.
Aight so, after tilting a bit and then getting 79.9% on 40 games... I managed to get reqs. I'm extremely on the fence about this mon ngl, originally I went into the suspect absolutely disgusted at the sight of this pokemon, it made the drops shit to me while the previous drops we had (the false ones) w/o mvenu had me legit enjoying the tier again with testing w/ friends and roomtours. Regardless of that, as of now I am leaning slightly towards ban. Only slightly, I see all the points everyone is making... honestly I agree with a lot of the pro-keep shit. However to me, whether mvenu is broken or not, the tier is less fun with it here. Building is so fuckin irritating with this thing, yes it's doable, and yes I'll adapt if it stays... but it's not fun. I'm not having fun with the tier, and no it's not because Glisc and Serp left because I hated both of those mons lmfao. Mamo is awesome and I love slapping it on every even remotely offensive team as a rocker to just decimate balance and/or stall with, Amoonguss is kinda cool ig I don't have too big of a liking for it... but I don't hate it. Playing around Mega Venusaur is 100% doable, but it's uncomfortable and not fun to me, simple as that. Anways, as for the team I used:
Araquanid @ Focus Sash
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sticky Web
- Liquidation
- Lunge
- Magic Coat
I used bulletproof Kommo webs for this suspect test. One really cool thing about Kommo-o on webs is that not only does it hard wall and setup on Venusaur because of bulletproof, but it also hard walls and sets up on Staka because of bulletproof (Staka obviously being an issue for offense). Mamoswine was plopped on to pressure floaty dragons, maero, and set rocks... honestly if I'm building webs I'd use mamo like 80% of the time as my rocker. Chandelure is a spinblocker, Scizor answer, and provides something to improve the stall matchup quite a bit while fitting well on webs. This Scizor set is hella awk and honestly it's an experiment that i've been semi-successfull with lmfao, but SD + Pursuit Scizor on webs is kinda cool to chip the shit like Maero and Lati that usually pressure webs so fuckin much, specifically Maero, the only problem is that it's super often that I find myself wishing it was Superpower and it also lets Moltres in for free, which this team struggles a shit ton with. Just an experiment that I thought might work lol, anyways Togekiss comes through as something that punish a lot of floaty mons with twave, specifically Moltres. Togekiss also gives us something for Hydreigon, which is another big issue for webs in general. Maybe the reason I didn't mind mvenu as much by the end of the suspect is because I have quite a bit of counterplay to it on my team, Kommo being a hard counter, Chandy being a very good answer, and Togekiss as well. Who knows though, for now I'm leaning ban.
Reminder: [00:58] +EviGaro: vivalospride is a good pocket monsters player and a good user who innovates with a very valid playstyle, carry on
