np: USUM UU Stage 9.1 - Dancing In the Dark

Pearl

Deculture!
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UU Leader
#1

Greetings, UUsers! After a chaotic period caused by the most recent tier shifts, the UU tier is now ready to move forward. As mentioned in the last thread, here is the public suspect test for Bisharp.


Although the UU council voted unanimously on every single other drop, one Pokemon was divisive enough to warrant being looked into further. Bisharp is a threat that, thanks to its ability, access Swords Dance to further boost its already good attack stat, strong priority and a typing/base stat distribution that gives it just enough utility to get by, highly enhances the viability of hyper offensive team archetypes to a whole new level. Besides that, it can also serve as a win condition and soft check to Pokemon such as Latias on slower teams. On the other hand, its average speed tier and the unreliability of Sucker Punch make it prone to being revenge killed without much effort in a lot of games. It can also find itself without many opportunities to set up against certain types of teams that excel at pressuring it. All things considered, it is hard to gauge whether or not Bisharp's presence will end up being too much for the UU tier or if the result of the last vote was just a rushed reaction to Latios' reign of terror.
This suspect test will operate similarly to the Mega Venusaur one. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open and Bisharp will be legal in it for the duration of the test. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. However, the requirements will be slightly harder this time around. They are as follows:
  • All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UUBS (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UUBS Pearl to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.
  • To qualify for voting, your alt must play a minimum of 45 games, and
  • You must have a minimum GXE of 81.
That's it! You have until Sunday, October 21 at 11:59 PM GMT -4 to meet voting requirements. Feel free to post if you have any questions about the current suspect format. Happy laddering!

 

Kink

it's a thug life
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tutor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Moderator
#2
I think Bisharp is a great example of a mon that would highly redefine some power relationships in this tier without being broken. And what I mean by this is very simple; some mons will be forced to run different sets because of Bisharp and, due to this, the ebb and flow of the tier will somewhat change in order to accommodate Bisharp's inclusion. However, I do not believe at all that this change is overwhelming for UU. Bisharp has minor flaws that are just exploitable enough to not push it over the edge, even if it can run a variety of sets. Almost every Bisharp risks being setup bait if it makes the wrong 50/50 decision against some of the most terrifying wallbreakers in the tier. What some see as pressure is equally unreliable, and vice versa. Bisharp is a great example of a moderate-risk to high-reward mon, but the risks it presents are easy enough for the average user to be able to exploit after learning what Bisharp can do. Furthermore, this tier has very unexplored Colbur sets that I think would increase the amount of viable sets, thereby increasing diversity, which means less games will be decided on team matchup and for me this is always a good byproduct. Bisharp could easily become one of the best mons in our tier if let in, but I'm very much okay with this prospect, and definitely believe it brings more positives to the table than negative, hence my original unban vote.
 

eht

UU Tier Mom
is a Pre-Contributor
#3
I think Bisharp is too much. Lots of the arguments in favor Bisharp have essentially boiled down to rattling off a list of checks that beat Bisharp 1v1—and sure, there's plenty of those—but none of these arguments take into account the impact Bisharp has on play, especially with Spikes up. If you dare to run Defog, you have to win the "Will they go to Bisharp here?" game. If you have an offensive check in range of +2 Sucker because you made the mistake of Defogging or letting your Latias go for an attack, you have to win the Sucker Punch game just to revenge kill it. In this sense Bisharp is like Breloom: perfectly beatable in a vacuum, but between its impact on teambuilding and the mindgames it forces, it proves too conducive to all-or-nothing scenarios that force players to win sometimes multiple 50-50's with limited resources. Breloom forced you to win the "Will they Spore?" minigame to position your check, often multiple times, and if you got it wrong even once the game could end right there. While the damage output of both Breloom and Bisharp can be mitigated with our decent amount of counterplay, the ceiling on their potential damage output is simply too high due how little room for error there is versus them. I think that makes the meta way too volatile to be considered healthy, which is why I think Bisharp should remain UUBL.
 
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#4
If I get reqs I am going to vote ban. Bisharp, imo, outclasses muk as a pursuit trapper. If it didn't have low kick I think bisharp could have a chance to be balanced but it does have low kick and it can punish steels. Its only major flaw is that sucker punch has 8 pp and can be stalled out. But even then youre playing 50/50 against a 125 attack stab knock off. With mamoswine back, bisharp is just the kick hyper offense needs to take over the meta. The most solid check to bisharp I have found is defensive infernape, which mind you works well, but is still a tad ridiculous to use just for bisharp and scizor if you want to. There is also unaware pokemon but they are usually only found on stall. At the end of the day the question you need to ask yourself is, "does bisharp check the boxes that a 'broken' pokemon does?" And those questions are: Does bisharp have little to no solid defensive counters? Yes. Does bisharp force the meta to radically adapt to it, because we dont have fckn keldeo? Yes. Is this pokemon very splashable having multiple move sets that can work around possible checks and the ability to fit on a variety of team types? Yes. These are my simple thoughts. You are welcome to agree or disagree with me, I am nowhere near the smartest or best player in UU. Thanks for reading!

I got reqs so I'm going to leave this here so I don't forget.
37b90f75a58b9593b99f527de2c57287.png
 
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#5
Unaware Pokemon still wall Bisharp cold, unless Quagsire is no longer a viable pick for stall, that's a hard counter.

Anything that lives or dodges Sucker Punch (Queenly Majesty) and can OHKO Bisharp handily checks it offensively, and Hydreigon and Zeraora are both uncounterable (they have specific viable sets that can OHKO or 2HKO every Pokemon in the metagame without fail, we just haven't found all of Zera's yet) yet are both solidly legal in UU, while again Bisharp has at least one hard counter.

Bisharp is also more one-dimensional than you make it. It will always have Sucker Punch and Knock Off, you just have to find the coverage or utility move, though you can bet on Steel and/or Fighting.

Most of all, though, I think Bisharp found itself in a metagame with Sucker Punch resists that are too good. Infernape, Terrakion, Cobalion, Hydreigon. Others I can't think of, lots of Pokemon that just abuse the shit out of Bisharp.
 
#6
Unaware Pokemon still wall Bisharp cold, unless Quagsire is no longer a viable pick for stall, that's a hard counter.

Anything that lives or dodges Sucker Punch (Queenly Majesty) and can OHKO Bisharp handily checks it offensively, and Hydreigon and Zeraora are both uncounterable (they have specific viable sets that can OHKO or 2HKO every Pokemon in the metagame without fail, we just haven't found all of Zera's yet) yet are both solidly legal in UU, while again Bisharp has at least one hard counter.

Bisharp is also more one-dimensional than you make it. It will always have Sucker Punch and Knock Off, you just have to find the coverage or utility move, though you can bet on Steel and/or Fighting.

Most of all, though, I think Bisharp found itself in a metagame with Sucker Punch resists that are too good. Infernape, Terrakion, Cobalion, Hydreigon. Others I can't think of, lots of Pokemon that just abuse the shit out of Bisharp.
Unaware pokemon is a good point, I edited my post. But unaware is found only on stall 99% of the time so I don't see how unaware is a relevant check considering 1 of 5 team types has a solid switch in. You also mention infernape, terrakion, cobalion, and hydreigon as sucker punch resists which is accurate, I never denied that, but if offensive none of them take a low kick or an iron head very well bar cobalion if you're using iron head. Bisharp isn't an unmanageable issue if at +2, the scary part is switching into it when it gets in for free. And even then scarf bisharp is actually a set that can lure these offensive checks that you mentioned. Maybe it is more one dimensional than I made it seem, but whether its darkium z, life orb, dread plate, choice scarf, av, hell even choice band, you do not know what you are dealing with when you are choosing what to switch in which makes bisharp dangerous, too dangerous for this tier.

Edit: Basically what you said was that bisharp can be RKO'd easily which is true. But how easily a pokemon is revenge killed is actually seriously irrelevant when you look at previous bans. Breloom was easily rko'd by any flying, psychic, ghost, or poison that was faster. You need to focus on the damage bisharp can do on a free switch in not how easy it is to knock out after it gets a kill. Bisharp will just switch out.
 
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#7
If I get reqs I am going to vote ban. Bisharp, imo, outclasses muk as a pursuit trapper. If it didn't have low kick I think bisharp could have a chance to be balanced but it does have low kick and it can punish steels. Its only major flaw is that sucker punch has 8 pp and can be stalled out. But even then youre playing 50/50 against a 125 attack stab knock off. With mamoswine back, bisharp is just the kick hyper offense needs to take over the meta. The most solid check to bisharp I have found is defensive infernape, which mind you works well, but is still a tad ridiculous to use just for bisharp and scizor if you want to. There is also unaware pokemon but they are usually only found on stall. At the end of the day the question you need to ask yourself is, "does bisharp check the boxes that a 'broken' pokemon does?" And those questions are: Does bisharp have little to no solid defensive checks? Yes. Does bisharp force the meta to adapt to it, because we dont have fckn keldeo? Yes. Is this pokemon very splashable having multiple move sets that can work around possible checks and the ability to fit on a variety of team types? Yes. These are my simple thoughts. You are welcome to agree or disagree with me, I am nowhere near the smartest or best player in UU. Thanks for reading!
Let's take this apart a bit.

If you'd said Krookodile, your point might be slightly less contestable. Muk-A is a shitty pick for a trapper in the meta, since it's so one-dimensional. Similar to Bisharp, actually. Krookodile is a trapper that has more defensive and offensive utility, better speed, similar attack, and Intimidate, and can also hit steels. Don't see Krook asking to be banned.

Check =/= Counter. "Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."
If we're talking checks, then we have the relevant fighting types, Mamoswine, Krookodile, Rotom-H, Hydreigon, and a few more but you get the point. Maybe a few of these get hit by Low Kick, but then it's giving up a moveslot to something else it wants. If you're four attacks, then you get bodied by just about any physical wall. If you're SD + Stabs, then you're picking between Pursuit, Sucker Punch, and Low Kick, each of those being great choices but not exactly all being run at once.

And regarding the meta adapting to it - lol what
We literally have to adapt to every drop, what does that even mean?
 
#8
Unaware Pokemon still wall Bisharp cold, unless Quagsire is no longer a viable pick for stall, that's a hard counter.

Anything that lives or dodges Sucker Punch (Queenly Majesty) and can OHKO Bisharp handily checks it offensively, and Hydreigon and Zeraora are both uncounterable (they have specific viable sets that can OHKO or 2HKO every Pokemon in the metagame without fail, we just haven't found all of Zera's yet) yet are both solidly legal in UU, while again Bisharp has at least one hard counter.

Bisharp is also more one-dimensional than you make it. It will always have Sucker Punch and Knock Off, you just have to find the coverage or utility move, though you can bet on Steel and/or Fighting.

Most of all, though, I think Bisharp found itself in a metagame with Sucker Punch resists that are too good. Infernape, Terrakion, Cobalion, Hydreigon. Others I can't think of, lots of Pokemon that just abuse the shit out of Bisharp.
Well, Black Hole Eclipse Bisharp can beat Quagsire, BHE does 54% on average against Quagsire and Knock Off 35-40% on the first hit. So imagine hazards are up, you Knock Off on the switch a 100% Quagsire, then you BHE him. And its not that difficult this to happen because Knock Off with Bisharp its most spammable move ever.

BHE Bisharp its cool because allows you to beat bulkier things that can check or counter Bisharp.

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Black Hole Eclipse (140 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 376-444 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 339-399 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Black Hole Eclipse (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 458-540 (116.2 - 137%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 276-328 (70 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Black Hole Eclipse (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Hippowdon: 358-423 (85.2 - 100.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Hippowdon: 324-382 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Black Hole Eclipse (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Aggron-Mega: 231-273 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Aggron-Mega: 140-165 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
#9
scarf bisharp could be fun to play around with and still punish defog but it cant even ohko back an offensize Z moltres (with defog)
+2 252 Atk Bisharp Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Moltres: 226-267 (70.4 - 83.1%) (z crystal)
so like idk i feel like its scarier on paper vs in practice but thats just a pre-thought.
its lack of speed honestly really hurts it vs offense when theres so many faster dark resists that are super viable

and hten for stall like people have said unaware hard walls except vs Z dark and i feel like competent stall players woudl scout for that after figuring out what item based on the damage calcs.
 
#12
Ah my bad, so I'm going to argue a little bit about my feelings about this suspect although im not an UU main.
I'm going to vote ban i think, the tier is already very cool to play and I take a lot of fun to play it so I think if Bisharp is unban, it will break a bit the versatility of the tier to force us to play too many Pokémon like Chesnaught, Cobalion, Quag or even nape.
 
#14
I know Bisharp is the hot topic right now(pun intended), but what are people running on their Zeroara? I find myself changing its moveset depending on my teams needs. Grass knot+Grassnium Z in case I need a sure fire way to get past Hippo, Iron Tail if I'm gastly afraid of fairies and prevent Altaria from setting up Ddance, Fire Punch to muscle past Amoongus. Still haven't given the Work up/Bulk up sets a try though. What sets have been showing the best results for ya'll?

Also has anyone else been running less Speed on their Zeroara? +Nature 196 Speed EVs is enough to outspeed M-Manetric. And the rest can be put into special attack for a mixed set. If you are not afraid of losing the speed war with opposing Zeroara.
 

danger zone

formerly Cynde
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#16
Screenshot 2018-10-14 at 12.52.04.png

this is just so i dont lose it.

okay so after laddering I've come to the conclusion that Bisharp is definitely not broken. It's a fantastic pokemon for sure and the only set that could remotely be considered broken are either dread plate sd or darkium sd. any other set is definitely worse in terms of effectiveness and would generally be better allocated to other pokemon on your team (looking at the pursuit and sr sets in this case) if you can fit them. i exclusively used froslass hyper offence because I felt that if Bisharp ever had the ability to overwhelm a team it would be on a team that doesn't give the opponent breathing room to remove hazards (it wasn't a great team but eh whatever). Despite the team I was using not being the best it still performed kind of consistently and I managed to get around 26 wins before I lost (which makes the rest of the reqs pretty sad lol.) but even then the only games that were lost were because of truly bad match ups (referring to vivalospride's np lucario team twice, once to xmarth's scarf terrak wisp rotom h build, trick room teams twice and a couple of krookodile squads). In those games bisharp did absolutely jack shit. people talk about bisharps ability to overwhelm teams because of knock off + hazards etc but the fact is it's still fuckin slow and you have to deal with the fact that you'll be playing sucker mind games a fair bit (if you're good at those then good on you, this pokemon clearly is rewarding the better skilled). bisharp only will overwhelm a slow team with extremely frail sucker resists (looking at a team with just offensive infernape there to accomplish that). the truth is that there are multiple ways of checking bisharp, anywhere from the wonderful fighting types we have, to fat ground types like hippo and gligar, bulky steel types like mega aggron and mega lix (sd low kick is not an argument) to name a few. the ones that aren't capable of taking a sucker punch have adapted to run substitute in certain cases (not just because of bisharp but it does play a big part) like nidoking or chandelure (i even saw a sub beedrill). I really like bisharp, i think it gives hyper offence an edge that the playstyle was lacking and gives a good foothold to some fun new pokemon like chesnaught. i hope it stays
 
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#18
We'll be putting up a thread next week where you can identify. Please use this thread for discussion, not for showing proof of reqs. (I mean you can include proof of reqs if you feel like showing off, but it won't put you on the list of voters, and you should still have some content in your post too.)
same thing as above
 

Pais

DARK POLO GANG
is a Tiering Contributor
#19
here my reqs:

first of all s/o RyLon Quaze and Renny for the teams, also s/o Toxeek and DarioVS for the moral support, you know ladder is shit.

In the last months I've really enjoyed playing USUM UU, it seems to be a balanced metagame, funny and playable. To be honest, I was not convinced to vote unban to Bisharp, but after playing in the suspect ladder I think that the metagame can adapt around Bisharp. Bisharp is not this broken mon.
Bisharp is generally slow and can be revengekilled by various Pokemon (Infernape, Sharpedo, Cobalion, Terrakion, Fighting types, Dark types etc). For sure Bisharp is a good pokemon but not in every game he's able to statup due to the offensivity of USUM UU, full of many mons that can limit Bisharp statup. Then the metagame now runs things like Chesnaugth, Gligar, Hippo to check Zeraora and these mons are really good to check Bisharp. Bisharp has other checks like Pyukumuku, Quagsire,Mega Steelix and Mega Aggron. Surely Bisharp looked like sometimes centralizing but not this much to be considered a cancer for the metagame. It is also a good revengekiller for centralizing HO stuff like Latias and Zeraora, so it's not this bad. I just want to say that Bisharp is surely amazing, but it can be stopped and at the same time it helps to check potentially broken stuff. So I think that its presence can balance or help a bit the metagame. So I'm going to vote Unban.
 
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Kink

it's a thug life
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tutor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Moderator
#20
here my reqs:

first of all s/o Quaze and Renny for the teams, also s/o Toxeek and DarioVS for the moral support, you know ladder is shit.

In the last months I've really enjoyed playing USUM UU, it seems to be a balanced metagame, funny and playable. To be honest, I was not convinced to vote unban to Bisharp, but after playing in the suspect ladder I think that the metagame can adapt around Bisharp. Bisharp is not this broken mon.
Bisharp is generally slow and can be revengekilled by various Pokemon (Infernape, Sharpedo, Cobalion, Terrakion, Fighting types, Dark types etc). For sure Bisharp is a good pokemon but not in every game he's able to statup due to the offensivity of USUM UU, full of many mons that can limit Bisharp statup. Then the metagame now runs things like Chesnaugth, Gligar, Hippo to check Zeraora and these mons are really good to check Bisharp. Bisharp has other checks like Pyukumuku, Quagsire,Mega Steelix and Mega Aggron. Surely Bisharp looked like sometimes centralizing but not this much to be considered a cancer for the metagame. It is also a good revengekiller for centralizing HO stuff like Latias and Zeraora, so it's not this bad. I just want to say that Bisharp is surely amazing, but it can be stopped and at the same time it helps to check potentially broken stuff. So I think that its presence can balance or help a bit the metagame. So I'm going to vote Unban.
Any reqs posts here will not be considered valid. This is a discussion thread and you'll still need to post your actual reqs on the voters thread. Sorry if you already knew this, but your initial comment ("add me on that list") made me think as if you did not.
 

Pais

DARK POLO GANG
is a Tiering Contributor
#21
Any reqs posts here will not be considered valid. This is a discussion thread and you'll still need to post your actual reqs on the voters thread. Sorry if you already knew this, but your initial comment ("add me on that list") made me think as if you did not.
ik, I just wanted to write something about bisharp and posting reqs.

I'll post the reqs also in the identification thread kok
 
#22
So, got my reqs and will vote but still undecided. Some great posts for/against here and hopefully more will come, helps lesser players like me to make a more solid decision.

Atm however, I can't really see how Bisharp is broken in any way nor how it's presence forces the meta to build around it. Due to it's lack of speed you can/should pretty much always have something to revenge-kill it, Sucker punch is great but not the most reliable prio and although it is the most splashable Knock off user in the meta (sorry Krook) I don't see how that makes it broken. It's a really good mon though, and I'm a bit surprised not seeing it around more when getting my reqs.

I guess the most crucial problem with it, atleast imo, is it's impact on spikes-stack. Besides Hydreigon and maybe Moltres, the defoggers in the tier don't have a chance if they get the prediciton wrong and allow Bisharp the +2 atk. Unless hp-fighting whimsicott becomes a thing... All of a sudden you have the hard 50-50 mindgame on removing hazards, and it's definitely not like a normal spinblocker where you lose a tempo, this thing comes in and can knock off or pursuit (or other moves) depending on the situation, with some great power behind.

Good thing is, it's a bit scary for it to switch in given that almost all defoggers have ways to punish Bisharp. Togekiss, Empoleon, Mega-Alt, I do believe all defoggers got ways to punish Bisharp from coming in. (Toge can run fight/fire but is that common on defog-set?) And Hydreigon doesn't even care. Problem is ofc that this scares you from defogging, but with the great pool of defoggers who can get to Bisharp, it's flaws being easily exploitable in revengekilling and the fact it can't switch in on many common moves makes it all in all great but not broken.

Am I wrong? Then convince me otherwise!
 
#23
alright, so here is my reqs in case there is that one guy that doesn't believe me
Bish Reqs.PNG

But basically, now that I have got reqs, I want to go into depth about Bisharp.

So basically, Bish is a strong dark type. This is nothing new as we have really strong dark types like Hydriegon, Krook, M Shark, etc.. Unlike any of the above dark types, it has steel as a secondary which allows it to break through fairies a lot better. This also allows it take a hit from latias better than any other mon on the list above and give it 9 resistances. But ,as we all know, it is the defiant ability that makes people question if it is broken or not. So what this means is that these 3 characteristics make Bisharp broken.
1. It is a strong Dark Type
2. Steel secondary typing
3. Defiant
These are not enough to make bish broken. These also really do not account for Bish's weaknesses also. So anyways, Im going to analyze all these aspects of Bish.

1. Strong Dark Type
Not gonna touch on this too much since no one has really brought this up as a main reason to banned, but I have heard people say on the past forum that its stab sucker punch was too much. While yes, it is the strongest sucker in the tier, strong priority inst a new thing in the tier. Most HO teams have 2 steel, water, and/or ice resists for Mamo, crawdunt, and scizor respectively. So this will just force offense teams to have 2 or 3 dark resists rather than 1 or 2 like some teams were doing prior to Bisharps arrival. It will make teams change some aspects of team building, but literally every tier changes in UU history has had this happen (exaggeration, but u get the point). Bishs presence will just make Dark checks more necessary on a team, and that alone doesnt make it broken. If Bish was broken by this logic, then Scizor would be broken. Cause as we all know by now, if u do not have a good +2 Sciz answer and a good Sciz switch in, youll likely be screwed. Same thing applies to Bish as well.
2. Steel secondary typing
So the steel second typing is a blessing and a curse for Bish. Offensively, it is great for bish. It allows it to hit fairies extremely hard as the only fairy not super effective to it is the keys (and bish checks the keys). Also, defensively it helps out bish as it resists 9 types. With the amount of choiced attackers, it allows it to set up on a lot of stuff. However, it does have its flaws. Its typing allows (most) fighting types to take advantage of it. Priority fighting moves take advantage of its low speed and 4 times weakness to fighting. Then also, Coballion and Chesnaught is a great answer to Bish and Coballion is not a good stand alone pokemon. Then before anyone says low kick Bish, where does Bish have room for it. SD is part of what makes Bish really scary, and pursuit allows it to be a good AV user. So bish just doesnt have room for low kick. Bish without an AV has trouble switching into, well almost anything that it doesnt resist. (Ill show later). But overall, its typing has more advantages than negative, but also has some majors flaws .

3. Defiant
While there is no denying it is the best defiant user, it still has some weaknesses. Here are some calcs of common defoggers.
Here is some examples of common defogers
0 SpA Altaria-Mega Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 188-222 (69.3 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 164-192 (60.5 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 314-372 (115.8 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 269-316 (99.2 - 116.6%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 126-148 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 151-178 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 94-112 (34.6 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Basically, these calcs are here to show that u can not just mindlessly switch Bish into defoggers. Also, people are starting to adapt to Bish being in the tier. People are running rapid spinners as there are not really any good spin blockers. And then they are running defoggers that can beat Bish 1v1. Examples are moltres, rotom-h, fire move hydriegon, M stoise, offensive Kiss and Malt. While this annoying at the moment, It is not impossible to run defog and not be afraid of Bish at the same time. Not to mention, Bish often has to get multiple plays right in a row in order to take full advantage of +2 boost from Defog.

So these characteristics were clearly not enough to make Bish broken back before OU stole Bish as basically no one considered it broken then. The only major thing that would impact are Keldeo and Gliscor being gone. However, I feel that this is a lazy arguement. First off, Keld isnt even nearly the best check to Bish (+2 LO sucker does 60 min). Also, gliscor had to be poisoned, before it came in as Bish could get rid of the best passive recovery in the game. Obviously, if these 2 were in the tier, Bish would be worse. However, this is not like the Amoongus and Breloom relationship at all. Neither of the 2 above mons counter Bish like Amoongus counters Breloom. Also, people seem to forget about what can counter Bish now. Gligar is naturally faster than Bish and can do some nice damage with a stab EQ.
0 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 170-204 (62.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also, Keldeo wasnt even the best swords of justice answer to Bish. Coballion is and always will be a much better answer to Bish. Offensive Coballion can take a +2 Knock and Sucker from Bish (also can take a +4 sucker) while offensive Keldeo could never dream of doing the same thing. I could list off more Bish checks, but that has probably been beaten into ur head already.

One final point, is that Bish will undeniably have a big impact on the tier. However, literally every mon in A+ or S has a big impact on the tier. So this will just be a mon that can be annoying that is also really good. I think this is a bad mentality to have for a tier. While it can be argued that this is what happened to M Venu, I think we should just not repeat the mistakes made in that suspect test again (if you feel thats what M Venu ban was).

So Tl; DR
Bish's traits do not make it broken. Also, No keldeo and Gliscor just makes Bish better, not broken

Edit:
Also if anyone wants to know the team I used, just PM and Ill probably give it to if you arent a dick
 
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Adaam

I’m a computer-y guy
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
#24
I just got reqs mixing in 3 playstyles: Frosslass HO w/Bisharp, bulky offense w/o Bisharp, and balance w/o Bisharp. The latter two were old teams of which I made very few changes to adapt to Bisharp. Here are my thoughts, although I don't want to repeat too much of what has been said since I largely agree with other unban posters.

Bisharp without Defiant is nowhere near broken. Scizor is a far more threatening SD sweeper as a Steel-type since Dark-type resists are not weak to SR like Fire-types, and it has more weaknesses to exploit. It's a fantastic Pokemon no doubt, but as a standalone sweeper it’s nothing UU cannot handle.

Thus, I focused on if Defiant puts it over the edge, and again, I cannot see Spikes making it overbearing so long as Klefki is our most viable Spiker. While I used Froslass HO, the overlapping weaknesses these types of build tend to have made it very hard to win certain matches. In particular, I struggled against floating Dark-type resists in Hydreigon, Togekiss, and M-Alt (somewhat). Strong spinners were also difficult to punish, as outside of Tentacruel they all can OHKO the tier's Ghost-types. I also encountered some Klefki and Chesnaught builds which had their distinct problems. Klefki stacks too many weaknesses and honestly sucks, while Chesnaught's passivity makes it difficult to pull off as a partner. Even if we ignore our scarcity of Spikers, all is not lost as we do have multiple removers that beat Bisharp, even if it nabs a Defiant boost. Honestly the best Defoggers don't give a shit about it at +2 (Hydrei + M-Alt) or can KO it if it tries to switch in (Rotom-H, Gligar, Molt).

If you dare to run Defog, you have to win the "Will they go to Bisharp here?" game. If you have an offensive check in range of +2 Sucker because you made the mistake of Defogging or letting your Latias go for an attack, you have to win the Sucker Punch game just to revenge kill it.
I largely disagree with this because it heavily implies that Bisharp is unhealthy by punishing stuff like a -2 Latias or Defog. Why is this a bad thing? How is this any different from giving Scizor a Swords Dance when using Draco with a Latias? Or Terrakion a Rock Polish after you locked Krook into Knock Off? You further describe a perfect scenario for Bisharp as an element for its brokenness. If you let your Sucker Punch resist get weakened and then let Bisharp get a free boost, then yes, you may lose. This is true for any sweeper and is not unique to Bisharp at all.

In this sense Bisharp is like Breloom: perfectly beatable in a vacuum, but between its impact on teambuilding and the mindgames it forces, it proves too conducive to all-or-nothing scenarios that force players to win sometimes multiple 50-50's with limited resources. Breloom forced you to win the "Will they Spore?" minigame to position your check, often multiple times, and if you got it wrong even once the game could end right there. While the damage output of both Breloom and Bisharp can be mitigated with our decent amount of counterplay, the ceiling on their potential damage output is simply too high due how little room for error there is versus them. I think that makes the meta way too volatile to be considered healthy, which is why I think Bisharp should remain UUBL.
The Breloom comparison doesn't make much sense to me since they share nothing in common besides being slow as shit and having Swords Dance. Spore mindgames were infinitely worse than what Bisharp brings since using Spore has 0 drawbacks, whereas Bisharp risks dying or wasting a turn if uses Knock Off or Sucker Punch incorrectly.


Does bisharp have little to no solid defensive counters? Yes. Does bisharp force the meta to radically adapt to it, because we dont have fckn keldeo? Yes. Is this pokemon very splashable having multiple move sets that can work around possible checks and the ability to fit on a variety of team types? Yes. These are my simple thoughts. You are welcome to agree or disagree with me, I am nowhere near the smartest or best player in UU.
Here are my counterarguments:

Defensive counters and checks: Mega Aggron/Steelix, Chesnaught, Hippowdon, Gligar, Swampert, Quagsire

Offensive checks: Cobalion, Infernape, Mega Houndoom, Mega Sharpedo, Terrakion, Lucario, Crawdaunt, Kommo-o, Moltres, M-Altaria, Togekiss (w/coverage), Hydreigon, Bewear.

This is a non-exhaustive list of checks and counters, some of which are more reliable than the other. Low Kick can dent a lot of these, but again, access to coverage is not a Bisharp-exclusive trait.

I don't think Bisharp forces the meta to radically adapt. So far I ran EQ > Psychic Fangs on my offensive Shark builds as an adaptation to great success. It really messes with the Keys + Bisharp builds. On balance teams you might need to run more physical bulk on Hippowdon and the Mega Steel-types, which is hardly radical in a tier where random Pokemon run HP Fire just for Scizor. The fact is there are so many Pokemon that naturally check it. I never found myself scrapping entire teams because it single handedly invalidates them.

Lastly, I truly believe Bisharp is healthy for the tier. A solid Scizor + Latias check is always welcome, and it breathes life into the near-dead playstyle known as HO. It gives Pokemon like Frosslass and Chesnaught a time to shine again while nerfing the too-easily spammed Defog. Free Bisharp.
 
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