np: UU - A Farewell To Kings

[Naxte]

1) U-turn has 70 BP

Err, just want to point out that I believe that EoM was referring to HeYsUp's Blaziken using Vacuum Wave there (since he was talking about switching out against Blaziken).

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Yeah, naxte is right.

2) That is exactly his point. Using Regirock to slow down Crobat gives other pokemon free switch-ins, helping them sweep. That sounds pretty supportive to me.

Yeah, Crobat is also replaceable with Swellow and Arcanine, in your statement, which is what I am trying to say.

Hahahahahaha, is this serious? Sure, Swellow can stay alive if you don't use it. Crobat, on the other hand, actually lets you use it AND it can stay around longer AND it can slow its counters down with Taunt. If youre argument is that Swellow can stay alive if you don't use it, that is just absolutely hilarious. You are completely missing the point. Crobat gives most of the advantages of Swellow, AND you can use it throughout the entire match. You can use Crobat as a lure for its own counters, whereas luring Swellow's counters out with Swellow forces you to take burn and unhealable SR damage.

It's not really my argument; I just thought I'd throw it out there. Again, I have said this isn't about Swellow or Crobat sweeping (not this particular argument, anyway) it is about how they both force you to use Pokemon that Shaymin easily exploits.

I wonder how much your opinion would change, EUM, if you didnt exclusively play stall. Crobat admittedly loses effectiveness when it struggles to OHKO most of your team, but I wonder what would happen if you were using a team that wasnt relying on sheer defensive stats to stick around.

I do not play exclusive stall. I don't really use the types of teams HeySup does, but your assumption is definitely wrong.

You also happened to skate over the main point of my argument, which was that Crobat's presence forces people to use Shaymin-weak Pokemon, but Swellow's does as well.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Hahahahahaha, is this serious? Sure, Swellow can stay alive if you don't use it. Crobat, on the other hand, actually lets you use it AND it can stay around longer AND it can slow its counters down with Taunt. If youre argument is that Swellow can stay alive if you don't use it, that is just absolutely hilarious. You are completely missing the point. Crobat gives most of the advantages of Swellow, AND you can use it throughout the entire match. You can use Crobat as a lure for its own counters, whereas luring Swellow's counters out with Swellow forces you to take burn and unhealable SR damage.

Just in regards to Crobat giving advantages of swellow--

Really? I thought the main advantage of swellow was that it could 1-2hko practically every non rock/steel type.

 

[d2m]

EoM, you are missing his point.

You are attempting to say that, individually, none of his points qualify Crobat as broken, however, his argument says that the combination of all his individual points is what makes Crobat broken. You can point out others that draw in Shaymin bait, you can point out others with survivability, and you can point out that others have a good support movepool, you can point out others that check a large amount of offensive threats, but you CAN'T point out someone that has all of them.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

EoM, you are missing his point.

You are attempting to say that, individually, none of his points qualify Crobat as broken, however, his argument says that the combination of all his individual points is what makes Crobat broken. You can point out others that draw in Shaymin bait, you can point out others with survivability, and you can point out that others have a good support movepool, you can point out others that check a large amount of offensive threats, but you CAN'T point out someone that has all of them.

I have not nor will I deny that survivability, its ability to check offensive threats, and its support movepool are related. But its ability to draw in Shaymin bait is independent from its survivability. It makes sense, considering it mostly stems from Crobat's offensive traits. I don't see how someone can argue "Swellow draws in Shaymin bait" with "But Crobat has more survivability".

And the whole reason I have been arguing this is because viable, hard hitting Pokemon have been mentioned that check Crobat, and some have said that using them entails weakening your team to Shaymin. My response is that you are forced to use them anyway, lest you want to allow Swellow and Arcanine to rampage your team.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I don't see how someone can argue "Swellow draws in Shaymin bait" with "But Crobat has more survivability".

Its pretty easy, since Crobat can lure out the Shaymin bait at any point in the match, while Swellow, by your own admission, has to wait until the end of the match to be effective- when your Shaymin might have been KOd already!

And I just saw a match where Shufflebat walked all over your team...even furthering the point that Crobat doesn't have to OHKO or 2HKO its counters to support its team and hurt your opponent.

And sorry about the Vacuum Wave/U-turn thing, I misread. Good catch.

 

[d2m]

I have not nor will I deny that survivability, its ability to check offensive threats, and its support movepool are related. But its ability to draw in Shaymin bait is independent from its survivability. It makes sense, considering it mostly stems from Crobat's offensive traits. I don't see how someone can argue "Swellow draws in Shaymin bait" with "But Crobat has more survivability".

And the whole reason I have been arguing this is because viable, hard hitting Pokemon have been mentioned that check Crobat, and some have said that using them entails weakening your team to Shaymin. My response is that you are forced to use them anyway, lest you want to allow Swellow and Arcanine to rampage your team.

That doesn't speak so much to the power of the other checks like Swellow as it does to the amazing power of Shaymin. It's my firm belief that both need to be suspects at least and banned at most. There are plenty of other checks to tanks like Regirock, plenty of other anti-fighters, etc, but there is absolutely NO reason to not have Crobat/Shaymin be the core of any offensive or stall team at this point.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Its pretty easy, since Crobat can lure out the Shaymin bait at any point in the match, while Swellow, by your own admission, has to wait until the end of the match to be effective- when your Shaymin might have been KOd already!

Swellow doesn't have to lure it out. Unless you plan on saving it until the end of the match as well, in which case I've basically neutralized one of your Pokemon, I can still abuse its presence whenever you switch it in.

And I did not say that Swellow has to wait until the end of the match to be effective. I said Swellow can easily survive that long if you don't send it out until its counters are dead.

And I just saw a match where Shufflebat walked all over your team...even furthering the point that Crobat doesn't have to OHKO or 2HKO its counters to support its team and hurt your opponent.

What are you talking about? Unless you're just saying it was someone using my team, it wasn't me.

 

[Heysup]

It's not wrong; I said your team without Regirock. That's my point. The presence of Regirock, while it essentially stops Swellow from sweeping, gives Shaymin a free switch-in. This isn't about Swellow actually sweeping, it's about Swellow having the potential to sweep, which forces you to use a Shaymin-bait counter.

And considering the fact you're attacking me with a 40 bp move, it sounds like a good idea to me.

Regirock gives Shaymin / Omastar etc free switch ins, that is correct. You keep forgetting that the argument isnt only that it makes you use Shaymin-bait, thats only of it. The OTHER half, and the one that seperates it from Swellow, is the fact that it can a) Support the team in various ways b) Check a stupid amount of the metagame c) And most importantly, it can actually SURVIVE, as you said before, unlike swellow. You basically gave away the fact that Crobat has a huge advantage over swellow when I asked you why you used Crobat.

Survivability. But again, survivability is not an issue if you cannot even deal with the Pokemon.

Dont you see? That is the difference between Swellow and Crobat! That is why you cannot replace Crobat with Swellow in the reasons that Crobat is BL. Its because it cannot do what Crobat does, except for the fact that they can both sweep late game.

Well if you don't use their Shaymin bait counters they don't even have to survive until late game; they'll cause it. Also, Swellow can easily survive that long if you don't send it out until its counters are dead.

I think J7r got this right. Crobat wouldn't be broken if the only thing it could do is sweep late game. You are completely missing the point. Swellow is pretty much = in late game sweeping, HOWEVER, Crobat can a) Lure out its counters, b) Check everything, c) Taunt / Whirlwind everything, d) Stay alive throughout the whole game, and e) Did I mention that it checks everything?

It's forced out again then. And once Crobat is out of play, even for a just a moment, it loses a lot of its ability to check. How many Pokemon are there that Crobat "checks" that does not have a move that can KO/cripple/deal massive damage to a Crobat switching in? Crobat does not fully counter the majority of the metagame, in the same way that say Chansey does to Yanmega.

You seem to be fabricating the fact that im saying "Crobat counters all of the metagame", when im saying it "Checks most of the metagame". There is a difference.

Shaymin isn't invincible. It's going to have to either recover on the next turn or be worn down by various Rock-attacks. And then what does it accomplish?

Shaymin is pretty damn hard to KO as well, but of course it isnt invincable. Its just nearly impossible to KO Shaymin with so many Pokemon it forces out so easily, similar to Crobat but on a much, much, much lesser degree. The fact that the two Co-exist is when it becomes trouble.

Why can't an offensive team have a Crobat?

It can, to check other offensive teams. However, with less Pokemon to sponge hits and lure out sweepers (like stall), Crobat is 10x easier to take down on an offensive team than a stall team, while retaining every other characteristic, if not more.

Survivability. But again, survivability is not an issue if you cannot even deal with the Pokemon.

I already quoted this up there, but I didnt address the second part. You can "DEAL" with Swellow, because it dies after 2-3 switch ins. Crobat you cannot simply "Deal" with, for reasons I have stated over and over.

You cannot still be saying that Swellow = Crobat, when you have basically proven that Crobat has many advantages by answering my question.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Swellow doesn't have to lure it out. Unless you plan on saving it until the end of the match as well, in which case I've basically neutralized one of your Pokemon, I can still abuse its presence whenever you switch it in.

But with Crobat, you aren't abusing its presence since it can just Roost off damage and remain alive for the entire match, checking most of UU.....

And I did not say that Swellow has to wait until the end of the match to be effective. I said Swellow can easily survive that long if you don't send it out until its counters are dead.

.......

Yes, Swellow can survive as long as Crobat, IF YOU DONT SEND IT OUT UNTIL ITS COUNTERS ARE DEAD. Crobat can be a bitch to your opponent EVEN IF ITS COUNTERS ARE NOT DEAD. Are you really not getting this? You are saying "Swellow can sweep if you dont use it until the end!". I am saying "Crobat can sweep and it doesnt matter where in the match you use it, in addition to being able to Taunt, Roost, etc without having to Burn itself to be productive"

What are you talking about? Unless you're just saying it was someone using my team, it wasn't me.

I just watched a match of yours where you couldnt even touch, let alone KO, shufflebat until it ran out of Roosts, your stall team couldnt even break its sub except for Luxray.

Speaking of Luxray, I find it pretty funny that you are using it, since the only thing your Luxray set can do is counter Crobat. It loses huge chunks of health to most Physical attackers, even with Intimidate. The fact that you are using that ridiculously centralized Rest Talk Luxray to counter Crobat says quite a bit about Crobat........

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Well, you're still completely missing my point, which is that the points you think I'm ignoring are not related to the point I am not ignoring, but jrrrrrrr addressed it so whatever. Let me address all your points this time.

Support the team in various ways...Taunt / Whirlwind everything

I don't think this is broken, considering there are a variety of Pokemon who can deal more damage to Crobat than it can Roost without setting up.

Whirlwind is not effective unless you get up entry hazards.

Prior posts:

How can a stall team set up Spikes? According to you, Crobat kills set-up, while Omastar is Shaymin bait, so it should be impossible for Roserade and Omastar to do anything.

But Shaymin is an offense check, not a stall check. Shaymin is walled to hell and back by Chansey and Crobat. The fact that stall has many, many, checks for shaymin is a big reason that Crobat is nearly unstoppable on it.

Why can't an offensive team have Crobat?

It can, to check other offensive teams. However, with less Pokemon to sponge hits and lure out sweepers (like stall), Crobat is 10x easier to take down on an offensive team than a stall team, while retaining every other characteristic, if not more.

I thought Crobat checked the metagame? Regardless, Crobat's aptitude at being a good switch-in on Shaymin is not determined on whether or not your team is stall or offensive.

b) Check a stupid amount of the metagame

You seem to be fabricating the fact that im saying "Crobat counters all of the metagame", when im saying it "Checks most of the metagame". There is a difference.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I was making the point myself. I feel that the fact that it is not a counter to these Pokemon in most regard means that it fails to qualify for that aspect of the defense/support char. Yes, Crobat kills Blaziken with Brave Bird, but it can't switch in on its Fire Blast, can it?

c) And most importantly, it can actually SURVIVE, as you said before, unlike swellow. You basically gave away the fact that Crobat has a huge advantage over swellow when I asked you why you used Crobat

Numerous examples have already been given of Pokemon who are counters, who can kill Crobat. Which brings me to:

The point is, Crobat checks at least 80%+ of the offensive sweepers in the metagame, while the rest are painfully weak to Omastar, Shaymin, Drapion, etc Pokemon that are easily (and almost always) included in a stall team.

Shaymin is pretty damn hard to KO as well, but of course it isnt invincable. Its just nearly impossible to KO Shaymin with so many Pokemon it forces out so easily, similar to Crobat but on a much, much, much lesser degree. The fact that the two Co-exist is when it becomes trouble.

On Shaymin:

Max Atk Adamant Kabutops LO Stone Edge: 62.76% - 74.19%

Max SpA Modest Omastar Ice Beam: 61.58% - 72.73%

So what do you do now? You have to recover or else the next time I get in on your Crobat, I'm killing you on the switch. Shaymin accomplishes nothing and ends up as set up bait for Roserade or even Crobat.

HOWEVER, Crobat can a) Lure out its counters

Everything can lure out its counters. It's just that Crobat does it more efficiently through U-Turn, which is applicable to anything that learns U-Turn. My Mespirit can U-Turn from Chansey and Registeel and Hitmonlee gets a free switch-in.

I already quoted this up there, but I didnt address the second part. You can "DEAL" with Swellow, because it dies after 2-3 switch ins. Crobat you cannot simply "Deal" with, for reasons I have stated over and over.

You cannot still be saying that Swellow = Crobat, when you have basically proven that Crobat has many advantages by answering my question.

I have been saying that Swellow = Crobat only in terms of counters and potential to sweep. Nothing more.

But with Crobat, you aren't abusing its presence since it can just Roost off damage and remain alive for the entire match, checking most of UU.....

I don't know what you mean by that; I meant I'm abusing Regirock's presence.

Yes, Swellow can survive as long as Crobat, IF YOU DONT SEND IT OUT UNTIL ITS COUNTERS ARE DEAD. Crobat can be a bitch to your opponent EVEN IF ITS COUNTERS ARE NOT DEAD. Are you really not getting this? You are saying "Swellow can sweep if you dont use it until the end!". I am saying "Crobat can sweep and it doesnt matter where in the match you use it, in addition to being able to Taunt, Roost, etc without having to Burn itself to be productive"

I was merely saying that I did not say Swellow is ineffective until the end of the match. But really, this is pretty irrelevant. I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between Swellow / Crobat in this regard; I just phrased it in a bad way earlier.

I just watched a match of yours where you couldnt KO shufflebat until it ran out of Roosts, your stall team couldnt even break its sub except for Luxray.

Speaking of Luxray, I find it pretty funny that you are using it, since the only thing your Luxray set can do is counter Crobat. It loses huge chunks of health to most Physical attackers, even with Intimidate. The fact that you are using Rest Talk Luxray to counter Crobat says quite a bit about Crobat........

Just? That was yesterday, and Milotic, Chansey, and Luxray could all break its Substitute. I didn't regard it as walking all over my team considering I won...

Luxray is mainly for Honchkrow. Ironically it was you who convinced me to use it after losing to you mainly because of repeated crits on Milotic. I would probably have something better to use if I was just set on countering Crobat, like Steelix.

 

[A.P.]

Yes, Swellow can survive as long as Crobat, IF YOU DONT SEND IT OUT UNTIL ITS COUNTERS ARE DEAD.

I would like to argue that point. Ever heard of a move that Swellow can use? It's called U-turn, 70 BP Bug Move, allows you to switch after attacking? Most of the time, when you bring Swellow in, bring it on a favorable matchup, and U-turn the hell out when the opponent brings their counter in, and bring in your answer to that counter (Blaziken works well). And Swellow can Roost, using that same principle - bring it in on something favorable, Roost on its counter, then U-turn out. Swellow may not be as useful as Crobat, but what you said is obviously not true.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

Swellow may not be as useful as Crobat, but what you said is obviously not true.

Not really. Simply switching in to do said U-Turn costs Swellow 25%(SR)+6%/12%(Poison/Burn Damage)= 31-37%. So Swellow can really only switch in to U-Turn 3 times if it ever intends to attack. And using Roost itself is dangerous....Swellow has 60/60/50 Defenses. And using Roost takes up a move slot, so you lose U-turn or Quick Attack, leaving you open to priority.

 

[Erazor]

At this point I highly encourage everyone to nominate Crobat as a suspect once again. One more round of testing should solidify Crobat's true placement, whether it be UU or BL. Any further discussion about him is rather pointless IMO. However, there is always reason to kickout that oversized dragonfly, Yanmega.

Agreeing to this. Ban Crobat again, considering it a test. Then watch the metagame unfold. Then we make our decisions for voting.

It's probably the best thing to do in this situation. I'm not sure, as this happened just before I joined, but wasn't there a suspect ladder for a Metagame without Garchomp? I think we should do the same thing - declare Crobat a suspect, then look at the new "metagame".

What do you guys think? This is sort of a truce - we observe a metagame without Crobat again, and then make our decisions...

 

[Heysup]

Well, you're still completely missing my point, which is that the points you think I'm ignoring are not related to the point I am not ignoring, but jrrrrrrr addressed it so whatever. Let me address all your points this time.

What is your point exactly? Your point seems to be that Crobat = Swellow, and that Swellow isnt broken, while im saying otherwise and you seem to be denying it. You have repeated things like this:

Again, the same applies to Swellow and Arcanine.

And while arguing this point about how Swellow forces you to use Shaymin-bait, you seem to have forgotten Crobat's numerous advantages, especially during early / mid-game, while Swellow is a) practically useless untill its counters are dead, and b) It will only have 1-2 Attacks if it switches in earlier in the game. Saying that they sweep similarly is like saying that Rampardos can sweep like Salamence.

I don't think this is broken, considering there are a variety of Pokemon who can deal more damage to Crobat than it can Roost without setting up.

As we have been over previously, you need to replace "variety" with "select few"

Whirlwind is not effective unless you get up entry hazards.

Prior posts:

How can a stall team set up Spikes? According to you, Crobat kills set-up, while Omastar is Shaymin bait, so it should be impossible for Roserade and Omastar to do anything.

Why can't an offensive team have Crobat?

I thought Crobat checked the metagame? Regardless, Crobat's aptitude at being a good switch-in on Shaymin is not determined on whether or not your team is stall or offensive.

The fact that Crobat doesnt OHKO over half of a Stall team, and the fact that Omastar exists, means you should get spikes up unless you mispredict an exponential amount of times. I never said Crobat kills Spike / SR set up (especially with Omastar around), I said it kills offensive set up Pokemon, such as SD Drapion, CM Missy, CM Espeon, etc.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I was making the point myself. I feel that the fact that it is not a counter to these Pokemon in most regard means that it fails to qualify for that aspect of the defense/support char. Yes, Crobat kills Blaziken with Brave Bird, but it can't switch in on its Fire Blast, can it?

Ummm...okay? I'm not arguing this, nor is it relivant? Countering is not in the definitions of BL.

Numerous examples have already been given of Pokemon who are counters, who can kill Crobat. Which brings me to:

Yes, the same stall oriented Pokemon, or Rock-types have been mentioned. There is still way too few of them, but the fact that they all lose to Shaymin makes them often invalid.

On Shaymin:

Max Atk Adamant Kabutops LO Stone Edge: 62.76% - 74.19%

Max SpA Modest Omastar Ice Beam: 61.58% - 72.73%

So what do you do now? You have to recover or else the next time I get in on your Crobat, I'm killing you on the switch. Shaymin accomplishes nothing and ends up as set up bait for Roserade or even Crobat.

First of all, Rain Dance teams are completely different, so Kabutops is completely irrelevant.

However, Omastar is a good Pokemon to break the combo, but unfortunately it will often still lose to Shaymin, and without another WALL, Shaymin can still cause havoc. This is why its almost impossible to break Crobat + Stall.

Everything can lure out its counters. It's just that Crobat does it more efficiently through U-Turn, which is applicable to anything that learns U-Turn. My Mespirit can U-Turn from Chansey and Registeel and Hitmonlee gets a free switch-in.

You keep missing my point, that every time Swellow comes in it will lose at least 31% of its HP because of status and SR regardless of U-turn. That makes it almost not worth using. Thats why forcing Swellow out is enough to deal with it, while Crobat can keep coming in.

I have been saying that Swellow = Crobat only in terms of counters and potential to sweep. Nothing more.

Exactly. This is my main point, you have agreed that Crobat is better in nearly every way (at least survivability-wise), and STILL has the same sweeping capabilities as Swellow.

I was merely saying that I did not say Swellow is ineffective until the end of the match. But really, this is pretty irrelevant. I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between Swellow / Crobat in this regard; I just phrased it in a bad way earlier.

How is a Pokemon who does not do anything untill late game "not ineffective" until the end of the match?

This is completely relevant, because Swellow is a "good" sweeper, and Crobat can do the same as Swellow AND more. It shows an example of how Crobat is too much to handle.

I would like to argue that point. Ever heard of a move that Swellow can use? It's called U-turn, 70 BP Bug Move, allows you to switch after attacking? Most of the time, when you bring Swellow in, bring it on a favorable matchup, and U-turn the hell out when the opponent brings their counter in, and bring in your answer to that counter (Blaziken works well). And Swellow can Roost, using that same principle - bring it in on something favorable, Roost on its counter, then U-turn out. Swellow may not be as useful as Crobat, but what you said is obviously not true.

This just proves that you either ignored the fact that swellow does not have the stats / resistances to use Roost effectively, or you have ignored the fact that Crobat forces at least 10x more switches than Swellow. You also seem to have forgotten that Swellow loses 31% of its health permanently every time it U-turns, Roost simply does not work with Swellow as it does with Crobat.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

I was trying to say that Crobat is not the only thing that forces you to use Shaymin bait as counters, so you can't use that as an excuse for it being broken. I have not forgotten about Crobat's longevity; I just felt that it was irrelevant for this particular argument, and for this argument only.

I think comparing Swellow's offensive characteristics to Crobat is a bit irrelevant, as whether or not Swellow is a good sweeper is subjective, not to mention that you have shown that it is pretty inefficient because it loses 31% everytime it switches in.

Yes, the same stall oriented Pokemon, or Rock-types have been mentioned. There is still way too few of them, but the fact that they all lose to Shaymin makes them often invalid.

First of all, Rain Dance teams are completely different, so Kabutops is completely irrelevant.

However, Omastar is a good Pokemon to break the combo, but unfortunately it will often still lose to Shaymin, and without another WALL, Shaymin can still cause havoc. This is why its almost impossible to break Crobat + Stall.

How are they completely different? They're actually a form of an offensive team. Also, Kabutops doesn't have to be used in conjunction with rain, although I acknowledge that rain is responsible for a lot of its effectiveness.

And in the scenario I outlined, I forced Crobat out and dealt respectable damage to the Pokemon that switched in. How am I not placed at an advantage? How are they not effective counters?

And so what if they both lose to Shaymin? I'm not leaving them in. I'm switching to Roserade and setting up on you/threatening to kill you with Sludge Bomb.

As we have been over previously, you need to replace "variety" with "select few"

Milotic
Steelix
Honchkrow
Arcanine
Azumarill
Claydol
Regirock
Uxie
Yanmega
Slowbro
Drapion
Feraligatr
Moltres
Kabutops
Absol
Lanturn
Porygon2
Rotom
Mesprit
Torterra
Charizard
Omastar
Nidoqueen
Typhlosion
Magneton
Rhydon
Cloyster
Tauros
Manectric
Kangaskhan
Marowak
Sandslash

This is part of a list of Pokemon that Crobat generally should not switch into, or if it does switch into, risks taking severe damage / being KOed. This is what I meant by how Crobat does not counter that much.

Ummm...okay? I'm not arguing this, nor is it relivant? Countering is not in the definitions of BL.

The defensive characteristic:

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Crobat cannot "wall and outstall" these Pokemon.

I understand that this wasn't what you arguing; that you were arguing that Crobat checks a shitload of Pokemon. Well nowhere in the BL characteristics is checking mentioned, and anyway, the above list is a ton of Pokemon that Crobat cannot check.

The fact that Crobat doesnt OHKO over half of a Stall team, and the fact that Omastar exists, means you should get spikes up unless you mispredict an exponential amount of times. I never said Crobat kills Spike / SR set up (especially with Omastar around), I said it kills offensive set up Pokemon, such as SD Drapion, CM Missy, CM Espeon, etc.

You never Crobat kills Spikes or SR set up, but it does because it knows Taunt. And I would personally be more inclined to Taunt Omastar than an Espeon of all things.

You keep missing my point, that every time Swellow comes in it will lose at least 31% of its HP because of status and SR regardless of U-turn. That makes it almost not worth using. Thats why forcing Swellow out is enough to deal with it, while Crobat can keep coming in.

I didn't even mention Swellow in that regard, I said Mespirit.

 

[Heysup]

This quote circle is just getting tedious.

EUM this is the argument:

Is Crobat BL? I dont see what you mean by "This particullar argument", because there is only one.

Im trying to get you to see, that you cant keep over-analyzing Crobat's characteristics individually (as different arguments) because it is not broken for any one reason. All of these things that I have mentioned are done at the same time as each other. Thats why your arguments were flawed, in my opinion, because you kept naming counters and similar Pokemon over and over, and that is not the argument. I am saying that the combination of the reasons I stated previously, are why Crobat is broken, not any particullar one as you seem to be addressing them.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Well, I don't think the combination is broken, either. For example, Omastar stops it from sweeping (offensive characteristic, Brave Bird can't touch it), walling and stalling (defensive characteristic, with moderate SpA investment, Surf will do more than Roost), and setting up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep (support characteristic, Omastar deals respectable damage to the Pokemon in question Crobat is setting up for a sweep). And Omastar isn't the only Pokemon that does this, there's Kabutops, Arcanine, Rhydon, etc. Am I missing anything?

 

[Heysup]

Omastar doesnt do respectable damage to any Pokemon on a stall team at all.... Thats the team thats going to be sweeping. You're counters work against Crobat on an offensive oriented team, but NOT on a stall team, thats the point. Crobat completely stops almost any offensive Pokemon from sweeping, and the ones it doesnt are easily stopped by something else from stall.

The fact that there are counters is completely invalid. The Pokemon Crobat checks severely outwieghs the Pokemon it cannot, just because Crobat is forced out does NOT mean its gone from the battle. The checks and survivability go hand in hand, you see, because the extra turns it gets from forcing said offensive sweepers out = free Roosts. The fact that Crobat checks a huge portion of the metagame doesnt make it broken, its the fact that it almost permanently does, because of its ridiculous survivability is one of the main arguments for the support characteristic as it makes Stall sweep so much easier.


Crobat is broken simply because does all of its jobs so well, and all at the same time with one moveset (Brave Bird / Roost / Taunt (or Whirlwind) / U-turn (or Substitute)). Omastar and the like can hit the offensive teams that may switch in, but it will not damage anything on the stall team, especially since Shaymin can easily switch in on Surf and it still OHKOes all of the "offensive" checks you keep mentioning. The fact that two Pokemon basically check every single offensive Pokemon (but not stall) support Stall teams to the extent that it is nearly impossible to break them, even with Blaziken.

 

[guoguo]

Crobat isn't always going to get free roosts. Play predictably and you'll be punished. Roost every time Crobat is in on an offensive sweeper that it can kill and you're eventually going to get a Fire Blast or Psychic in your face. Roosting isn't always risk free, BBing a counter means you'll be forced out before you can Roost. The player with better prediction wins, not the player with Crobat.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

...and the ones it doesnt are easily stopped by something else from stall.

Almost anything can be stopped by something from stall.

The fact that there are counters is completely invalid. The Pokemon Crobat checks severely outwieghs the Pokemon it cannot, just because Crobat is forced out does NOT mean its gone from the battle.
The checks and survivability go hand in hand, you see, because the extra turns it gets from forcing said offensive sweepers out = free Roosts. The fact that Crobat checks a huge portion of the metagame doesnt make it broken, its the fact that it almost permanently does, because of its ridiculous survivability is one of the main arguments for the support characteristic as it makes Stall sweep so much easier.

Just about all of the Pokemon Crobat checks have something that they can do to damage Crobat. Fighting-types have Stone Edge. Blaziken has Fire Blast. Shaymin has Psychic. Even Umbreon deals somewhat decent damage to Crobat with Payback. It's not only the checks that give Crobat opportunities to Roost, it's how you play them, and if you play them one-dimensionally, of course you're going to get burned.

 

[umbarsc]

I'm not going to try and jump back into this Crobat debate, but after reading jrrrrrrr and HeYsUp's arguments, I'm convinced. You're right guys, Shaymin truly is deserving to be a Suspect.

Can you define what you mean by "checking" the metagame? Do you mean as a revenge-killer? Do you mean it can switch in on the right moves and force it out? "Checking" isn't as clearly defined as "countering" is.

If Crobat forces you to carry Pokemon that gives Shaymin free switch-ins, allowing it to sweep, I would sooner ban Shaymin than Crobat. Crobat helps you exploit Suspects, but once those Suspects are gone there's nothing to exploit.

 

[Heysup]

Crobat isn't always going to get free roosts. Play predictably and you'll be punished. Roost every time Crobat is in on an offensive sweeper that it can kill and you're eventually going to get a Fire Blast or Psychic in your face. Roosting isn't always risk free, BBing a counter means you'll be forced out before you can Roost. The player with better prediction wins, not the player with Crobat.

Roosting is incredibly easy still, Pokemon such as Missy are FORCED out. And since when is prediction a valid argument? Its not.

Almost anything can be stopped by something from stall.

Which is why Stall does not have the same problems with Crobat as offense. Not to mention, stall can break after wall breakers hit repeatedly hard, but Crobat simply stops them from doing this effeciently at all and makes it near impossible for even stall-breakers to break stall.

I'm not going to try and jump back into this Crobat debate, but after reading jrrrrrrr and HeYsUp's arguments, I'm convinced. You're right guys, Shaymin truly is deserving to be a Suspect.

Can you define what you mean by "checking" the metagame? Do you mean as a revenge-killer? Do you mean it can switch in on the right moves and force it out? "Checking" isn't as clearly defined as "countering" is.


If Crobat forces you to carry Pokemon that gives Shaymin free switch-ins, allowing it to sweep, I would sooner ban Shaymin than Crobat. Crobat helps you exploit Suspects, but once those Suspects are gone there's nothing to exploit.

Although it appears to be a trolling attempt, I'll respond to the first paragraph quickly. Shaymin, IMO, should also be nominated for reasons very similar to Crobat. This however, is another topic.

To clarify:

Checks: Something that keeps a Pokemon from sweeping, and forces them out, but cannot reliably switch-in, if at all. For example, Crobat checks Espeon.

This is pretty clearly defined, too be honest.

Shaymin is just an example for one of the arguments. The argument is basically Crobat + Stall = Close to being broken, if not broken on its own. Stall meaning a team made of something like Shaymin, Chansey, Drapion, Omastar and etc. Shaymin is only a small part of the reason that Crobat is BL material. You are forgetting the like 4-5 reasons, other than the "Broken with stall in general" argument.

 

[kd24]

how does crobat open up serious holes in the game for any of those other members you listed other than shaymin? with shaymin, hes actually just downright eliminating any and all grass- and bug-types that beat shaymin and its that support issue that is listing crobat as "uu uber".

if you can tell me what teams up with crobat perfectly like shaymin does then offensively and defensively (and then you have 4 other slots to work with to cover any weaknesses) then yeah, crobat is the obvious suspect. however, i like umbs idea of testing a shayminless uu game since crobat seems to really just help shaymin so much.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Which is why Stall does not have the same problems with Crobat as offense. Not to mention, stall can break after wall breakers hit repeatedly hard, but Crobat simply stops them from doing this effeciently at all and makes it near impossible for even stall-breakers to break stall.

Stall-breakers such as Blaziken are not the only ways to get through stall.

As I said before, nothing is IMPOSSIBLE to do, but Crobat is just exceptionally hard to take down when a) alot of these Pokemon dont have anything to hit Crobat with, b) there are many, many, many Pokemon Crobat can simply Roost Stall against, and c) Crobat can just easily Brave Bird if these Pokemon attack it (not to mention, the fighting types will not KO with Stone Edge after Roost, so thats a moot point)..

A lot of these Pokemon have something to hit Crobat with. In fact, I'm not sure there's anything that can't. It doesn't matter if Crobat Roosts or not, it will get worn down eventually. I believe Shaymin's Psychic does ~84% on Crobat. Even if Crobat Roosts, Psychic will KO it the next time it switches in, even if Stealth Rock is not up.

The Fighting-types will OHKO Crobat on the switch with Stone Edge, so it can't really Roost...

Checks: Something that keeps a Pokemon from sweeping, and forces them out, but cannot reliably switch-in, if at all. For example, Crobat checks Espeon.

I agree. I have listed offensive Pokemon that Crobat does not check, or does a shoddy job of checking.

Shaymin is just an example for one of the arguments. The argument is basically Crobat + Stall = Close to being broken, if not broken on its own. Stall meaning a team made of something like Shaymin, Chansey, Drapion, Omastar and etc. Shaymin is only a small part of the reason that Crobat is BL material. You are forgetting the like 4-5 reasons, other than the "Broken with stall in general" argument.

That's so specific. How many people use a team of Shaymin, Chansey, Drapion, Omastar, Crobat, (Spiritomb?) anyway? Is Crobat still broken on another version of a stall team?