np: UU - A Farewell To Kings

[WJC3688]

What exactly is Altaria gonna use against Moltres? It doesn't learn Thunderbolt, Surf, Stone Edge or Rock Slide. And if Chansey is 3HKO'd, I'm willing to bet that Fire Blast + Air Slash 2HKOs Altaria after SR.

Relicanth is hardly safe when offensive Moltres these days like to run HP Grass.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I've found Miltank to be a decent Moltres counter. Can easily be EV'd to avoid a 2HKO from Air Slash, has reliable recovery in Milk Drink, Rock Slide to 2HKO, and can outrun thanks to 100 base speed (still can't see the logic to it after all these years). Heal Bell is also an option to avoid being permanently screwed over by Toxic.

In all honestly though, I've never thought of Moltres as being a ban-worthy Pokemon. It has never caused me any significant problems with any team I've used, and there are far more formidable threats out there right now so Moltres doesn't particularly stand out.

 

[A.P.]

Yeah. I never understood how Miltank was that fast. But if it works, don't complain.

 

[Stagnant]

Moltres ban was so... so last metagame. >.>

Anyways, I've never considered Miltank in killing the flaming bird. I will have to try it.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

And to pre-empt the argument I'm going to get from Eo Ut "Im going to whore Crobat on every team and use a specialized set to counter it, but i dont think its broken" Mortus, U-turn alone doesnt make it broken, its the fact that Crobat lures out pokemon that are easy for its teammates to set up on. Only one type of Pokemon can reliably switch into Crobat: slow Rock or Steel types with little type coverage, aka the easiest pokemon to set up on. The fact that Crobat outspeeds and OHKOs nearly every major offensive threat in the metagame (Shaymin, Missy, Espeon, Blaziken, Hitmontop, Roserade, etc etc) is just an added bonus.

Yeah, because Stone Edge on Kabutops and Ice Beam on Omastar are far from the norm. I already explained to you why I use Luxray, who is not even a good example of a specialized counter to Crobat (because the non-specialized Steelix and Regirock work better), but to Honchkrow.

By the way, why would you use the NU, Shaymin/Roserade-bait Quagsire on your team over something like Milotic? If not just to wall the supposedly easy-to-set up on Rock-types.

So here you are saying that you consider the residual damage Crobat takes from U-Turning out to be more important than the fact that Shaymin or Roserade or whatever else is switching into your precious Water/Rock type for free (especially since SR must always be up when you are arguing against a Pokemon which is weak to it, but that's beside the point)? If you think killing off Crobat is that important then clearly it is more threatening than you give it credit for.

Well, yeah. If Crobat is the only thing stopping my Blaziken / Mismagius / fragile offensive sweeper from sweeping, why wouldn't I?

Perhaps not with perfect consistency, but if your argument is merely that it does not happen "consistently," then clearly it happens (whether consistently or not) and clearly Crobat is capable of "setting up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep." While the lack of "consistency" in performing this task may be enough for one to argue that Crobat is not BL if it were the only thing Crobat is capable of, unfortunately, such is not the case. Crobat is conveniently blessed with other significant and positive traits which fit into the other two characteristics.

I don't think that Crobat fits the other two traits enough to be broken, though.

Crobat is walled by a variety of Pokemon. This issue has already been addressed; the primary damaged caused by a team using Crobat is not done by Crobat itself, but rather the sweepers that Crobat supports.

As for defenses, Crobat is a great check, but does not counter nearly as much. Crobat cannot "wall and outstall" nearly as much as "wall a few Pokemon, and outspeed the rest." Pokemon that Crobat does not "wall and outstall" include:

Milotic 
Steelix 
Honchkrow 
Arcanine
Azumarill 
Claydol 
Regirock 
Uxie 
Yanmega 
Slowbro 
Drapion 
Feraligatr 
Moltres 
Kabutops 
Absol 
Lanturn 
Porygon2 
Rotom 
Mesprit 
Torterra 
Charizard 
Omastar 
Nidoqueen 
Typhlosion 
Magneton 
Rhydon 
Cloyster 
Tauros 
Manectric 
Kangaskhan 
Marowak 
Sandslash

 

[WJC3688]

Crobat is walled by a variety of Pokemon. This issue has already been addressed; the primary damaged caused by a team using Crobat is not done by Crobat itself, but rather the sweepers that Crobat supports.

So you're saying that, even when something can wall Crobat, Crobat is still able to take advantage of that Pokemon and help its teammates to sweep where it cannot? Hasn't that been one of the arguments the Crobat-haters have been using this whole time?

As for defenses, Crobat is a great check, but does not counter nearly as much. Crobat cannot "wall and outstall" nearly as much as "wall a few Pokemon, and outspeed the rest." Pokemon that Crobat does not "wall and outstall" include

I'm going to agree with HeYsUp and say that you're being extremely short-sighted, treating Crobat's positive traits like they are several separate Pokemon, instead of a single entity. For example, you listed Torterra as something that Crobat cannot out-stall. So what? Torterra's weak to Flying, Crobat isn't going to try and stall him out, he's just going to attack the thing and do big damage. Crobat can't out-stall Blaziken either, so what? Crobat's not a static wall that does nothing but sit there and Roost.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

So you're saying that, even when something can wall Crobat, Crobat is still able to take advantage of that Pokemon and help its teammates to sweep where it cannot? Hasn't that been one of the arguments the Crobat-haters have been using this whole time?

I'm saying that Crobat's effectiveness stems mainly from its ability to support rather than actual offense. I did not comment on its efficiency to do either, except in relative terms.

I'm going to agree with HeYsUp and say that you're being extremely short-sighted, treating Crobat's positive traits like they are several separate Pokemon, instead of a single entity. For example, you listed Torterra as something that Crobat cannot out-stall. So what? Torterra's weak to Flying, Crobat isn't going to try and stall him out, he's just going to attack the thing and do big damage. Crobat can't out-stall Blaziken either, so what? Crobat's not a static wall that does nothing but sit there and Roost.

Well, I more meant that list to be things that Crobat cannot switch into (Torterra generally will Rock Polish on the switch). I'm mainly saying that there is a decent number of Pokemon Crobat can't wall, can't safely switch in on, and cannot outstall.

 

[jimmyolsen]

I know I'm new here, but I thought I'd share some thoughts on the Crobat issue.

Of the Pokemon that are capable of switching into Crobat's Brave Bird effectively, I know of only two that can deal significant damage to the annoying prick before U-turn hits: Cloyster and Piloswine. Without priority moves (of which, only STAB Ice Shard and Extreme speed prove useful against the bat), Crobat is guaranteed to get away without taking damage.

The problem with this however, is that in order to guarantee 2hko on a 252 hp/0 defense Crobat with Ice Shard you must invest 252 EVs into Attack, a +attack nature, and hold a Life Orb for Cloyster or 216 Attack, +attack nature, and Life Orb on Piloswine.

Granted, Cloyster takes less than 100 damage from Brave Bird itself, but it also is weak to stealth rock, gets destroyed by Shaymin (despite being able to hit it with an ice shard), and is rendered significantly weaker at doing it's task of laying down spikes. Piloswine on the other hand eats 150 damage from min attack Crobat and doesn't really serve the same niche that it's evolution does due to lack of permanent Sandstream or Hail in UU.

Cloyster should be able to scare off lead Crobat well enough that it can get down at least one layer of spikes and explode on the vast majority of things that switch into it, but you still haven't effectively dealt with the bat or gotten your Stealth Rocks down in the first place. Piloswine however lacks the ability to explode, but can set up Stealth Rock, and might be considerable just for that reason.

Regardless, I think Crobat needs to be examined. No, it doesn't "Wall" everything in the tier. However, due to U-turn, Roost, and Taunt, it cannot be stalled out, taken down by brute force, or set-up on. Combine that with Quad resist to fighting, grass, and bug, immunity to ground, and all around sturdiness it simply lacks an effective form of removal prior to being the last pokemon standing. If you can tackle the other 5 members, then Crobat is fine; however, by simultaneously blocking the vast majority of pure offense, almost completely destroying stall, and setting up stall all at the same time it proves to be the most versatile pokemon in the tier while using only one moveset.

 

[WJC3688]

Well, I more meant that list to be things that Crobat cannot switch into (Torterra generally will Rock Polish on the switch). I'm mainly saying that there is a decent number of Pokemon Crobat can't wall, can't safely switch in on, and cannot outstall.

Right, because it is always Crobat switching into your Pokemon's attack, not vice versa. Also Stealth Rock is always up and you are able to predict Crobat's switch-in and/or its chosen move perfectly each and every time that it appears. The fact that Torterra and Uxie can carry attacks which are super-effective on Crobat hardly proves anything.

Garchomp can't safely switch into Sableye lest it get hit by Will-o-Wisp, variants that don't use Yache Berry cannot safely switch into Luvdisc either as Blizzard will do severe damage. You'll notice that Garchomp is still Uber in spite of these facts. Listing all the Pokemon which can somehow do something to screw with a particular Pokemon on the switch proves nothing at all.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Right, because it is always Crobat switching into your Pokemon's attack, not vice versa. Also Stealth Rock is always up and you are able to predict Crobat's switch-in and/or its chosen move perfectly each and every time that it appears. The fact that Torterra and Uxie can carry attacks which are super-effective on Crobat hardly proves anything.

Garchomp can't safely switch into Sableye lest it get hit by Will-o-Wisp, variants that don't use Yache Berry cannot safely switch into Luvdisc either as Blizzard will do severe damage. You'll notice that Garchomp is still Uber in spite of these facts. Listing all the Pokemon which can somehow do something to screw with a particular Pokemon on the switch proves nothing at all.

Okay. Sans stuff like Torterra, most of those attackers will beat Crobat one-on-one, meaning nothing is switching in. Crobat's offense cannot KO them and its defense is not enough to withstand their attacks. I am assuming Stealth Rock is up as a common battle condition. And yeah, in this case Crobat should have to switch into those attacks, not vice-versa. Practically nothing can switch into Deoxys-F, yet it's not Uber due to the defensive characteristic.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

If you are claiming that Crobat fulfills the DEFENSIVE CHARACTERISTIC, then yes, Crobat is switching in. Otherwise, you must bring it in after a kill, which hardly qualifies as defensively aiding the team.

 

[Heysup]

If you are claiming that Crobat fulfills the DEFENSIVE CHARACTERISTIC, then yes, Crobat is switching in. Otherwise, you must bring it in after a kill, which hardly qualifies as defensively aiding the team.

It can do this on a "significant amount" of Pokemon, but its the fact that it supports so many Pokemon (stall in particular).

The only Characteristic Crobat "fully" (or nearly fully) fulfills, is the support characteristic. However, the fact that Crobat ALSO comes with in inches of fulfilling the defensive and (mostly) offensive characteristic as well should be included in this judgement. If Salamence could outstall and check a good portion of the metagame, while also sweeping as it does, it would probably be considered Uber as well wouldn't it?

 

[jrrrrrrr]

By the way, why would you use the NU, Shaymin/Roserade-bait Quagsire on your team over something like Milotic? If not just to wall the supposedly easy-to-set up on Rock-types.

Because Quagsire has Water Absorb and counters every Kabutops set, which is a huge help to the team. Fast Electric-types are also a bitch with 3 Flying-types on the team, and Quagsire helps with those as well. Not to mention its SR resistance is great on a team with 3 SR-weak pokemon in case Crobat somehow gets taken out. That spot is filler, anyways. Most of the time I win a match without even showing it.

I don't know what you were trying to imply with this, the whole reason why I kept Quagsire over Feraligatr was to set up on Rock-types extremely easily, which is even easier considering that Crobat lures them out. Why would I talk about setting up on Rock-types and then use Milotic, a pokemon with no boosting moves?

Also, I really don't want this amazing post to go unnoticed:

Regardless, I think Crobat needs to be examined. No, it doesn't "Wall" everything in the tier. However, due to U-turn, Roost, and Taunt, it cannot be stalled out, taken down by brute force, or set-up on. Combine that with Quad resist to fighting, grass, and bug, immunity to ground, and all around sturdiness it simply lacks an effective form of removal prior to being the last pokemon standing. If you can tackle the other 5 members, then Crobat is fine; however, by simultaneously blocking the vast majority of pure offense, almost completely destroying stall, and setting up stall all at the same time it proves to be the most versatile pokemon in the tier while using only one moveset.

I don't know who you are but you need to keep posting.

 

[WJC3688]

If you are claiming that Crobat fulfills the DEFENSIVE CHARACTERISTIC, then yes, Crobat is switching in. Otherwise, you must bring it in after a kill, which hardly qualifies as defensively aiding the team.

Obviously this isn't the argument, though. The argument is that while Crobat may not fully fulfill any single characteristic, he can fulfill any of them to a certain degree, which adds up to a similar degree of overall usefulness. Thus it is ridiculous to consider the 3 traits entirely separately of each other and then say that Crobat doesn't qualify for any of them.

 

[Erazor]

What are your opinions on any other potential suspects? Are there any other pokemon that look like they might be suspect, other than Crobat, Yanmega, and Shaymin? I heard a couple calling for Ludicolo, and Moltres, but any others? I know that SDS wanted to nominate Clefable...

If there aren't many suspects, that really says something about the balance of the tier.

I won't be taking part in the bold nominations, I haven't played nearly enough this time to make a good judgment.

 

[pi face]

Clefable will never be BL. Sure, it's very versatile, but limited by the not-so-great base stats.

From my experience i would nominate Crobat, Shaymin, Yanmega, Ludicolo and Honchkrow. The tier would be perfect with those gone (except for Honchkow maybe), for me at least.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

I think the suspect list will be much smaller this time around, I personally will probably just be nominating Crobat, Shaymin and Honchkrow. And outside of those three probably only Ludicolo will be getting a nom along with some random stuff like Clefable, Milotic and Uxie.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Obviously this isn't the argument, though. The argument is that while Crobat may not fully fulfill any single characteristic, he can fulfill any of them to a certain degree, which adds up to a similar degree of overall usefulness. Thus it is ridiculous to consider the 3 traits entirely separately of each other and then say that Crobat doesn't qualify for any of them.

It is part of the argument. I am not only saying that Crobat does not sufficiently fit the defensive characteristic to be declared BL on it alone, but it does not sufficiently fill it to declare it BL even when used in conjunction with the other characteristics. To use Erazor's example, I am saying that a + b + c < x, y, or z because a, b, and c are not as high as you are saying.

No, it doesn't "Wall" everything in the tier. However, due to U-turn, Roost, and Taunt, it cannot be stalled out, taken down by brute force, or set-up on. Combine that with Quad resist to fighting, grass, and bug, immunity to ground, and all around sturdiness it simply lacks an effective form of removal prior to being the last pokemon standing. If you can tackle the other 5 members, then Crobat is fine;

I do agree to an extent with this, but it can be taken out with brute force.

If it U-Turns, aside from priority as you have mentioned or Pursuit, you will generally fail to remove it before you remove the opponent's other Pokemon. However, this is basically true for anything that always switches out. Crobat's tendency to "hit once and run" is just more noticeable because of U-Turn. In addition, yeah, Crobat won't take any damage, but the U-Turn recipients will.

On another note, I am probably nominating Honchkrow and Moltres as a Suspect, and can see Yanmega and Shaymin as Suspects but don't feel very strongly towards them.

 

[Heysup]

I don't know how you can say that Crobat does not "almost" fit all of the characteristics when it is undeniably good at sweeping, supporting, and even stalling out a fair portion of the metagame. I'd also go and say that Crobat "fully" fits the Support characteristic, because of what it forces the opponents to do to deal with it.


Anyway, I'm nominating Crobat and Shaymin. Honchkrow and Yanmega are so absurdly far from broken imo.

 

[MagicMaster87]

I'll be participating in the bold vote this time around, and even though I don't feel like it deserves it, I'll be nominating Crobat as my only Suspect vote. Better to take it out of the picture and see if it really is broken or not than to not vote it and have to deal with something that's actually broken for another three months.