np: UU Stage 4 - I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas

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Hippowdon is now banned from the UU ladder so we can officially start the next stage. For those that missed it, this post contains all the UU Senate members' paragraphs.

Time to start discussing what should be suspect, if anything, in a post-Hippowdon UU. Will Hail be the next target of our Senate members?? Are there any individual Pokemon left in the tier that pose a threat by themselves?? Let's talk!
I've already seen like a billion hail teams already abusing frosslass's snow cloak. fun!

I wonder if we'll see in increase of random mons having weather changing moves (like sunny day) just to prevent hail and sandstorm rampaging continually. Rotom H seems like a good candidate for keeping hail away.
I still feel as though Hippo shouldn't have been banned, but whatever, that's fine by me. Also, the ban on Snow Cloak+Snow Warning and Sand Veil+Sand Stream is long over due.

P.S. Don't ban Roserade. A good Pokemon with many uses isn't automatically broken.
Gonna Snow Cloak my Snow Cloak while I Snow Cloak my Snow Cloak.

Good times.

P.S. Ban Snow Cloak, Senate!
I'm with banning snowcloak+snow warning and the sand equivalent. It would be really nice to have a weather free tier without being forced down to the lowest tier but I guess that's never going to happen.
I much rather just see snow banned or frolass banned then a anything to due with snow cloak, as I personally don't see how anything besides Lass is broken with it. I also do not see how anything is broken with the sand version. :/


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I think the council made a mistake banning Hippowdon before looking into Roserade as a suspect. Sand with Hippowdon but no Roserade is not overwhelming in the slightest. I speak from experience on this one, as I play a lot more on the PO server where Roserade (and Froslass!) are banned. I was hoping eventually both metagames would be very similar (like our OUs have become), but meh w/e. Anyway, I'm hoping I actually find the time to play a bit more Smogon UU now.

... and before anyone bashes PO tiers, you should really play them before saying anything. Half the posts I see bashing PO tiers are just pathetically misinformed - UU in particular. The only differences as of now are Metagross, Swampert and now Hippowdon I guess being UU on PO, and Kingdra, Chandelure, Mew, Smeargle, Venomoth, Roserade, Froslass and Chansey being UU here. Everything else is the same iirc.

What I'm trying to get at is that by playing our UU, you guys might get an idea of how the meta develops without "suspect x or y" kinda like how we (well... "I") got the idea of test-unbanning Azelf by playing Smogon UU for a bit.

I hate that I can actually forsee the "lol PO tiers" comments coming as I post this, but w/e I hope people can keep an open mind. It'd be cool if we could cooperate, even if it is indirectly.

EDIT @ Below: Yeah those two totally slipped my mind. Thanks for catching it.
kokoloko, I think you forgetting that your UU also has Venomoth and Smeargle banned.

You do make a good point though and people should be more open-minded.
I wouldn't really say 'lol PO tiers', but I am getting a real 'apples and oranges' vibe here.

I mean, you say "PO UU sand teams are manageable w/o Roserade", but hell, give me a Metagross and I'd find the Stoutland/Hippowdon pair to be pretty underwhelming too.
Yah PO and Smogon UU are very similar and looking at the list of differences.

Smogon pokes that aren't on PO:
Roserade is over-centralizing being able to Spike which is checked by one list of pokemon and sweep with LO which is checked by another completely different list of pokemon.

Froslass who is broken under hail but if hail as a whole is banned a retest will be needed.

Chansey who Completely Centralized the Special Attackers out over on PO and unlike in previous gens took Physical Hits like a Champ we were Calcing Terrakion's (Who was UU at the Time) LO Max Attack Close Combat and not getting a clean 1HKO without rocks just to prove the Point.

Mew has that stupidly vast move-pool and It was banned becuase the Stallbreaker was so stupidly good (though it wasn't seeing to much usage though the UU leaders at the Time Koko actually and the then Bad Romance had been using it enough between them to make a decision nonetheless).

Venomoth and Smeargle are due to their QD/Smash passing + Sleep though Huntail and Gorebyss should be along soon enough.

PO should be getting Kingdra Come the New Year as the present tiering cycle ends on New Years Eve and will be a nice addition, and Shandy is looking to drop as well though I have no opinion on it at this time.

Pokes on PO that aren't on Smogon:
Metagross really looks OP on paper but all the bulky waters keep it in check well enough.

Swampert is Just another Bulky water and has like half a dozen pokemon to compete with though It's bulk typing and Movepool are a nice advantage for it.

Hippowdon Is really a way to get a good Sand Streamer (hippo sucks for anything else) but really in it's own right sand needs too much support to be broken outright as it stands.
I think, for UU in particular, Smogon tends to be way more "structured" about bans. What I mean is we have more guidelines, precedents, and in general it's a much more "slow and steady" method to banning. I'm not talking about how quick we ban things per se, I'm talking about how we tend to take our time as opposed to getting this banned and that banned. It's also a lot harder to ban something. Not that one way is better than the other. As you know I used to frequent the PO forums quite a bit, so I'm not totally off base with this.

I do agree that Hippowdon should have stayed, I think Roserade and Froslass should not be totally taking the blame for Spikes being on the field. If the masses think they are, we would discuss it as a council. However, we would need to take into account the structure and reasoning of this. For example, if Roserade and Froslass are the main reason Spikes stay on the field -> Do they get them on too easily? -> Do they have other uses or are they dead weight? -> What do Spikes do to the metagame? -> What Pokemon abuse Spikes to the point that they are perceived as broken? -> Does one of those Pokemon stand out as a culprit of breaking Spikes? -> Vote

That's at least how I do it. I make sure we are voting on the right thing and then make sure that thing is actually broken before I consider banning it (which is why I adamantly opposed Hippowdon's ban).

I'm sure eventually Roserade / Froslass will come up, but it's likely going to be SC + hail / SV + SS or Hail/Abomasnow.


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Don't forget Mienshao and Virizion. The list of differences is actually pretty significant. I'm not bashing PO tiers but we had two months of playing with Hippowdon, so I don't really see what more we would gain by seeing how it fares in a very different metagame. Maybe it isn't broken there but I can't see a situation where that makes it logical to change our own banlists.

Also, it's time for Snow Cloak and Sand Veil to die a horrible death, preferably diarrhea induced dehydration.


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I can't wait to try out SpDef Hariyama. Thick Fat + base 144 HP + force palm and Whirlwind. It seems really similar to snorlax, so if it doesn't go well Ill just try that out. A higher base attack + stealth rock and uturn resistances sound like nice perks!
I'm not convinced that hail will be broken in a metagame with Darmanitan, Chandelure, and Machamp (along with the mons we used to check hail pre-dropdowns). I wanted an Abomasnow ban before the dropdowns, and if hail is broken then I will push for that ban. Snow Cloak is the most overhyped "suspect" since brightpowder; sure it's annoying, but it's not broken.

Anyway I think that Kingdra might be one of the best pokemon in UU right now. It's nearly impossible to straight up ohko it without a flygon, and it can set up multiple DDs reliably or simply blast with draco meteor. It's also very difficult to counter, as bulky waters with the possible exception of slowbro have to rely on phazing to check Kingdra, and that just leads to them eating a +1 outrage and Kingdra coming back into the match later near full health. The most common scarfed revenge killers are also fire type, which means that they can't revenge Kingdra. You can even set Kingdra up on their attempt to revenge something else! One set in particular that I want to try is rest / sleep talk / dragon dance / outrage, possibly with Magneton support. When sleep talk selects outrage, you use a 120 bp dragon attack with no drawbacks at all. Could be very effective.

Moo: Snorlax is actually stronger because body slam has a higher base power than force palm. Also 160 / 65 / 110 defenses are a hell of a lot bulkier than 144 / 60 / 60. Hariyama is cool but sadly outclassed as a resttalker. Perhaps bulk up would work?


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If Hail becomes the "default condition" as it used to be, then I could see Froslass regaining its suspect status as last time. With Sand effectively nerfed, Hail will rise as the dominant weather. Whether we want to ban Snow Warning / Abomasnow, Hail + Snow Cloak, just Snow Cloak, Froslass, or nothing at all, is up for discussion.


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Abomasnow and Froslass are getting really annoying already. I can deal with Abomasnow easily but Froslass is just a total pain in the ass with misses coming at very key moments in some games.


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Snow Cloak is the most overhyped "suspect" since brightpowder; sure it's annoying, but it's not broken.
I completely disagree with this. Snow Cloak is the definition of "uncompetitive" and the very reason we have an Evasion clause. It's ridiculous that we're willing to ban Double Team, which costs a turn to use, but we won't ban Snow Cloak, which is twice as effective and automatic.
Either we consistently enforce our clauses or we start playing streetpokemon.

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I tried UU before Hippowdon's ban, and that with the combination of Stoutland was pretty hard to deal with. It looks like a good time to get back into it now.
Snow Cloak + Hail and Sand Veil + Sand should have been autobanned since 4th gen. Has obvious precedent and isn't really a point to be argued IMO.


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Well well, Hippowdon got banned. Back to the whole Froslass/Snow Cloak/Abomasnow/Snow Warning debate, I suppose. However, this time we have crud like Machamp and Darmanitan to punish those pesky Ice-types. Let's just see what happens, I guess.
I guess hail is just a little bit less threatening this round since you have things like Machamp and Darmanitan which just shit all over hail, Machamp especially if it gets a sub up since it bypasses Snow Cloak when your against Froslass, allowing you to Stone Edge it to death. Regarding Snow Cloak, I honestly don't think it's worth the ban, since any time we've seen it become an issue it's usually, in the end, the Pokemon itself, viz-a-viz Garchomp, who could have been Uber without Sandstorm. Sometimes it doesn't even make the Pokemon that bad, in the cases of Sand Veil Gliscor in DPP. However, I do think that Snow Cloak is sometimes an issue, though it's just really annoying on occasion tbh.

Speaking of which I can see the previously mentioned Machamp being an absolute monster in this meta, since it just rips apart hail at the seams (considering it hits Froslass every time thanks to No Guard, who btw is the best spinblocker and spiker in hail and arguably in the best spiker in UU alongside Roserade). The only thing on most hail that doesn't really mind SubChamp is Hitmontop because of Intimidate, but it's going to have a tough time beating it if Machamp has a Sub up and is lucky with confusion.

Snunch: Bulk Up Hariyama actually seems pretty interesting, something with a little Attack and a lot of defensive investment?
I'm honestly surprised Hippo got banned, it really didn't seem broken to me. Sand became a lot easier to deal with over time since most teams look identical. Oh well, back to trolling the ladder with rain.
Oh and Machamp is not an answer to hail as long as they have a Slowbro and/or Nidoqueen on the team.
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