np: UU Stage 4 - I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas

[DetroitLolcat]

Okay, at the moment nothing stands out as broken, but I guess now it's time to play the ladder and find out. All I'm saying right now is that I do not like ability bans, especially ones that nerf a broken playstyle by banning something that is not broken. Sand Veil I will never support a ban for, as nothing abuses Sand Veil besides the extremely rare Gligar.

If Froslass becomes broken because of Snow Cloak, I will only vote to ban Froslass, not Snow Cloak. Complex bans (like stupid Snow Warning+Snow Cloak) will not get a vote from me. For an ability to be broken, it will have to break more than one of the twenty (or so) Pokemon that get it. Banning Snow Cloak on Froslass is like saying "Leftovers broke Hippowdon, so let's ban Leftovers!"

Honestly it doesn't look like anything will be broken atm because of all the Fire-types and Alakazams that entered UU, but now's the fun part! Let's wait and see!

 

[FlareBlitz]

Okay, at the moment nothing stands out as broken, but I guess now it's time to play the ladder and find out. All I'm saying right now is that I do not like ability bans, especially ones that nerf a broken playstyle by banning something that is not broken. Sand Veil I will never support a ban for, as nothing abuses Sand Veil besides the extremely rare Gligar.

If Froslass becomes broken because of Snow Cloak, I will only vote to ban Froslass, not Snow Cloak. Complex bans (like stupid Snow Warning+Snow Cloak) will not get a vote from me. For an ability to be broken, it will have to break more than one of the twenty (or so) Pokemon that get it. Banning Snow Cloak on Froslass is like saying "Leftovers broke Hippowdon, so let's ban Leftovers!"

I honestly don't get arguments like this.

We want to ban Snow Cloak/Sand Veil because they are uncompetitive. Double Team is banned because it's uncompetitive, even though no one is likely to use it. Sleep Clause exists because being able to put everything to sleep is uncompetitive. We build metagames that we want to play, and it's not necessary that we only ban something when it's broken - we can also ban things if they substantially detract from the type of metagame we want to play.

It doesn't matter if snow cloak breaks froslass (and it does), what matters is that snow cloak should blatantly be covered under evasion clause. Instead of denying froslass to non-hail teams (where she's actually not bad) why don't we just ban an ability that should have already been banned?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I'm going to bring up an old point from the Garchomp debates, and that is the fact that SV/SC are passive evasion, whereas Double Team is active evasion. I'm not going to go on a rant to simply the basis for that is that by selecting the move Double Team you are actively causing evasion, whereas SV/SC are passive due to the inability for them to be caused by the user (i.e. You can't control their being active).

 

[Pocket]

I completely disagree with this. Snow Cloak is the definition of "uncompetitive" and the very reason we have an Evasion clause. It's ridiculous that we're willing to ban Double Team, which costs a turn to use, but we won't ban Snow Cloak, which is twice as effective and automatic.
Either we consistently enforce our clauses or we start playing streetpokemon.

And to add on to Texas Cloverleaf, 1 Double Team raises the evasion by more than 20%. A single double team drops a perfect accurate move to 67%, as opposed to Snow Cloak's 80%. So FlareBlitz, you're actually wrong in stating that Snow Cloak is twice as effective, because it's actually 42% less effective than Double Team.

Also, banning "luck" abilities for its "uncompetitive nature" will force us to ban other luck abilities, such as Serene Grace or Super Luck. Just like you can expect to be flinched by Jirachi's Iron Head more than half of the time or be burned by its Fire Punch 1/5th of the time, you can expect a perfect accurate Surf to miss 1/5th of the time due to Snow Cloak.

Moody was banned, because it was blatantly uncompetitive (totally relied on chance, did not require any skill to win). The same can't be said about the situational mini-boost in Snow Cloak. Snow Cloak alone isn't broken. It's Pokemon that has the means to abuse this ability to broken levels that should be the culprit. Unless you can convince people that not only Froslass, but Mamoswine and / or Glaceon in Hail are broken for the occasional miss, then you really can't place the blame on Snow Cloak.

 

[breh]

well, this is boring. I was hoping for something neat like a tenta drop...

back to pre-hippo I go! hippopotas shall still serve me well, I imagine.

also fuck snow cloak. argh. froslass would be tolerable without it, but it's the best spinblocker in the game with it (time to run max speed machamp or chandelure!). we'll see what happens.

@ above: actually, one double team raises evasion to 75%, 2 to 60%, etc. Evasion and accuracy run on a different formula (the numerator is greater, meaning there is less change per boost).

 

[CrazyBacon]

Also, banning "luck" abilities for its "uncompetitive nature" will force us to ban other luck abilities, such as Serene Grace or Super Luck. Just like you can expect to be flinched by Jirachi's Iron Head more than half of the time or be burned by its Fire Punch 1/5th of the time, you can expect a perfect accurate Surf to miss 1/5th of the time due to Snow Cloak.

Moody was banned, because it was blatantly uncompetitive (totally relied on chance, did not require any skill to win). The same can't be said about the situational mini-boost in Snow Cloak. Snow Cloak alone isn't broken. It's Pokemon that has the means to abuse this ability to broken levels that should be the culprit. Unless you can convince people that not only Froslass, but Mamoswine and / or Glaceon in Hail are broken for the occasional miss, then you really can't place the blame on Snow Cloak.

The difference between jirachis iron head and snow cloak is that jirachi has too actually hit the opponent. If X pokemon outspeeds jirachi and then kills it with a super effective earthquake, then you have no problem also mons like metagross (or something) can take repeated iron heads and still win thanks too its better defence stat. Togekeiss is the same, it can be outsped and OHKOED easily or mons like zapdos can sponge air slash and then put it down with a super effective thunderbolt

Snow cloak doesnt care about speed, its a free chance of dodging a move that could OHKO it, add small misses up and it could turn a win into a loss. There have been stories about frosslass coming from 4-1 down too win just because it keeps dodging the opponents moves, is that not luck a random noob can use glaceon/beartic/any other snow cloak abuser in hail and 6-0 you if he's extremely lucky and all your moves miss (which is statistically nigh impossible, but it could happen)
you're 'counter'/ 'check' too frosslass, whatever it may be, is only a counter/check 80% of the time, assuming you can OHKO it. meanwhile if you arent an ice type, you're losing hail and she is setting up spikes, or you're eating a blizzard from glaceons 130 base SpA, or beartic is substituting and swords dancing and then is going too sweep with focus punch/icicle crash
.

 

[FlareBlitz]

And to add on to Texas Cloverleaf, 1 Double Team raises the evasion by more than 20%. A single double team drops a perfect accurate move to 67%, as opposed to Snow Cloak's 80%. So FlareBlitz, you're actually wrong in stating that Snow Cloak is twice as effective, because it's actually 42% less effective than Double Team.

I didn't know that. My bad.

Also, banning "luck" abilities for its "uncompetitive nature" will force us to ban other luck abilities, such as Serene Grace or Super Luck. Just like you can expect to be flinched by Jirachi's Iron Head more than half of the time or be burned by its Fire Punch 1/5th of the time, you can expect a perfect accurate Surf to miss 1/5th of the time due to Snow Cloak.

We've rehashed this argument far too many times in the past. I would recommend everyone who is interested in this discussion go back and read the the posts in the Cold As Ice megathread. You might want to start http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3722077#post3722077here. The specific response to your argument is here.

 

[Kaos]

Frankly, I don't see why it matters whether you have to attack to trigger the hax or just sit there. Hax is hax; it's all luck. If we want to ban hax for the sake of hax, then by all means lets do that, but that means banning Serene Grace, Super Luck, and other such abilities along with Snow Cloak and Sand Veil.

We should be banning things that are proven to be broken, like Froslass perhaps if that's what we decide. I personally don't believe she herself is broken either, but that's another debate.

 

[Steamroll]

I would vote to ban Froslass herself before banning her ability. Same with Gligar's. I would also vote to ban Abomasnow before banning a single ability for being "broken."

 

[Machi]

I've been wondering this for a while but barring Garchomp, who was in OU but now Uber, what UU mon actually abuses Sand Veil strategy similar to Froslass? I've heard Gligar mentioned but fortunately he lacks offensive presence relying on Evolite and all plus can be outsped more importantly can't really hazard stack like Froslass (it only has SR). I can imagine it could use a sub SD set (though I've never encountered one) but again its quite lacking in speed and can be revenged or is it perhaps a sub-toxic set that abuses Sand Veil?

Regarding snow cloak I've only ever really found Froslass to be the abuser - Mamoswine is kind of a mix of other things too since he's already quite strong either way and is only pushed further by Snow Cloak misses (you do not want to miss against him). Just like Garchomp Froslass can intentionally bait for misses with much higher chances of success because it has such great speed to keep subbing up until a miss occurs, from there it can either spike stack (leading to at least 2 spikes) or TW to increase chances of not being hit or taunt should it be necessary to deal with a Foresight/roar/whirlwind leading to well spike stacking. What is important is that Froslass' speed is what helps to give more chances in an attempt to see a miss from the opponent, just like Garchomp. Other snow veil abusers also can gamble on a miss occurring but generally that's a pretty bad strategy since 100 accuracy moves still have more than a 50% chance of hitting. So that snow veil miss is more of a bonus when it happens for them. Of course you could provide paralysis support so as to improve chances but in a hail team its not as if they could afford too much slots for that, ironically Froslass could also provide said support.

 

[shrang]

Anyone still running Brave Bird teams? I pulled out my 5 Brave Bird + Dugtrio team yesterday (while replacing Staraptor with Dodrio), and it's been surprisingly effective. Sure, Rhyperior and Zapdos completely 6-0's it, but it sure is a blast to use.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I completely disagree with this. Snow Cloak is the definition of "uncompetitive" and the very reason we have an Evasion clause. It's ridiculous that we're willing to ban Double Team, which costs a turn to use, but we won't ban Snow Cloak, which is twice as effective and automatic.
Either we consistently enforce our clauses or we start playing streetpokemon.

One Double Team means all moves hit at 75% Accuracy, while Snow Cloak reduces everything to 80% Acc.

And out of curiosity, if you think both abilities should be banned under Evasion Clause, does it mean banning it (or the pokémon which have them) in older generations too?

EDIT @ Pocket-- According to Smogon (aka X-Act and Peterko, iirc), it's the latter !__!

 

[Heysup]

The collateral damage is far greater in past generations since they only (usually) have one ability. Additionally, it wasn't as noticeable last gen.

 

[Kaos]

Anyone still running Brave Bird teams? I pulled out my 5 Brave Bird + Dugtrio team yesterday (while replacing Staraptor with Dodrio), and it's been surprisingly effective. Sure, Rhyperior and Zapdos completely 6-0's it, but it sure is a blast to use.

I'm ashamed to say I faced your team yesterday with a physically defensive Zappy, and I still managed to lose. So I would venture to say that if you're opponent completely misplays or just sucks you have a chance even against Rhyperior and Zapdos. Zapdos in particular isn't as bad because Duggy's Stealth Rock keeps him in check and as long as he's not fully physically defensive, a lot of the birds can hurt him, such as Swellow with Flame Orb Facade. I think a biggest problem for it is not Rhyperior or Zapdos, but Stealth Rock, which neuters basically your whole team and prevents fancy U-turn antics, limiting you to pure Brave Bird spam (and hurting even that by cutting your health). If only Duggy could spin... All in all, it seemed like a very viable strategy, though obviously hurt by the loss of Staraptor.

 

[Pocket]

@ above: actually, one double team raises evasion to 75%, 2 to 60%, etc. Evasion and accuracy run on a different formula (the numerator is greater, meaning there is less change per boost).

I've heard 2 explanations for evasion & accuracy. The first one follows the same formula as attack and defense boosts / drops, whereas the other one goes down 3/4th, 3/5th, 3/6th, etc. Not too sure which one is more accurate, but according to Bulbapedia it's the former.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

According to Serebii its the latter, and thats the formula I've always followed and known to be true in any generation I've known. Basically Double Team ranges from 75% to 33% depedning on the number of boosts.

 

[Focus]

I've heard 2 explanations for evasion & accuracy. The first one follows the same formula as attack and defense boosts / drops, whereas the other one goes down 3/4th, 3/5th, 3/6th, etc. Not too sure which one is more accurate, but according to Bulbapedia it's the former.

It's definitely the latter. Even Bulbapedia says so...

Accuracy and Evasion modifications are calculated in a different manner.

↑ According to this post on the Smogon University forums, the formula simply uses a base numerator and denominator of 3 instead of 2 (that is, the modifiers are instead x1.33, x1.66, x2.0, etc. on the plus side and x0.75, x0.60, x0.5, etc. on the minus side).

 

[destinyunknown]

I don't think hail should be banned, it's not broken by itself really. Blizzspam is dangerous right, but is not overpowered. However, i think froslass is broken. Thunder Wave+Substitute+Snow Cloak mean that you she will almost always set 3 layers of spikes and very probably with the foe's fainted or very weakened due to hail.

 

[PK Gaming]

So even though we're 4 rounds in, there's still a lot of undiscovered/underutilized stuff in UU. Not enough teams are respecting Jolly LO Darmanitan imo, who still has the ability to cripple every single one of its checks, and Hippowdon getting the boot just made things a lot easier for him.

Snunch's post about Kingdra is a 100% true, not many teams are prepared to deal with him. I think as time goes on, more and more teams will start to carry Kingdra checks. This is the kind of stuff that makes UU interesting. Hopefully when the metagame reaches its peak, a ton of Pokemon will end up being viable. (in gen IV UU, practically everything in UU was viable with a lot of NUs being good too)

 

[Pocket]

Focus - According to this post on the Smogon University forums, the formula simply uses a base numerator and denominator of 3 instead of 2 (that is, the modifiers are instead x1.33, x1.66, x2.0, etc. on the plus side and x0.75, x0.60, x0.5, etc. on the minus side)

Good to know; thanks for the clarification, Focus!

Yea, speaking of underrated sets, I like using Specially-defensive Heracross. Even with minor Atk investment, Heracross can break walls with Swords Dance. It's a good partner for Alakazam, having no problems scoring a 2HKO on Sableye, and has a really good chance in OHKOing after Guts activation. Spiritomb is also set-up bait. Heracross shrugs off Scalds from bulky Water types, and it OHKOs offensive Roserade with Megahorn, while LO Sludge Bomb fails to 2HKO. Heracross can easily utilize Sleep Talk to hard-counter Roserade pretty much. +2 Heracross w/o Guts still does 60% min to Hippowdon, so nothing is easily walling it.

 

[TheBaron]

My goodness. Let's think. Sand Veil and Snow Cloak. Are they broken? Of course not. In Generation IV OU I don't remember people complaining about Sand Veil Gliscor. (Garchomp elicited lots of gripes) Frosslass is counterable by Stoutland, Alakazam, and Cobalion. All of those Pokémon are high on the usage list. Yes, Destiny Bond is really annoying, but if you are so worried about Frosslass, hold a Wide Lens. It will cut your problems in half. What about Machamp's priority Bullet Punch? Ice is a terrible defensive typing, and I have never had problems with Frosslass in the past (I did use sand so take that statement with a grain of sand). And remind me, what Pokémon use Sand Veil? Oh yeah, noobish Cacturne. These abilities are not broken. They are merely annoying, and no trump card in the hands of the opponent.

 

[jamashawalker]

My goodness. Let's think. Sand Veil and Snow Cloak. Are they broken? Of course not. In Generation IV OU I don't remember people complaining about Sand Veil Gliscor. (Garchomp elicited lots of gripes) Frosslass is counterable by Stoutland, Alakazam, and Cobalion. All of those Pokémon are high on the usage list. Yes, Destiny Bond is really annoying, but if you are so worried about Frosslass, hold a Wide Lens. It will cut your problems in half. What about Machamp's priority Bullet Punch? Ice is a terrible defensive typing, and I have never had problems with Frosslass in the past (I did use sand so take that statement with a grain of sand). And remind me, what Pokémon use Sand Veil? Oh yeah, noobish Cacturne. These abilities are not broken. They are merely annoying, and no trump card in the hands of the opponent.

They do not counter frosslass in fact they are probably pokes you DONT wanna switch into a frosslass...The standard frosslass set now is Sub/Twave/Blizzard/spikes....All those pokes come in while frosslass is subbing up and then eat a Twave and are now crippled, unless alakazam has sub or encore with a hope that encore hits/ How does stoutland counter frosslass anyways?you have a better chance of using kangaskhan than stoutland ...And are you really suggesting ppl use the precious item slot of wide lens just against frosslass? Yes ppl are saying use machamp! but in my opinion machamp wouldnt enjoy continually switching into blizzards even though its coming off of just 80 base spAtk..This isnt Gen IV. things have changed now

To add to what your saying Pocket, there are tons of underrated sweepers out there..just a few off my head that ive seen successful

Hone Claws Archeops
SD Gallade
NP Mew
SD heracross

Its been alot of fun seeing and using these types of pokes

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Okay, more thoughts on banning Snow Cloak:

Some people say that Snow Cloak breaks Evasion Clause. I'm not sure if I didn't get the memo, but I'm pretty sure the very definition of Evasion Clause says otherwise. Let's look at the Smogon Tournament thread, which contains the official Smogon ruleset:

Evasion Clause*: A player cannot use the moves Double Team or Minimize in their Pokémon's movesets, and cannot give their Pokémon the hold items BrightPowder or Lax Incense.

Notice the lack of the words "ability", "Snow Cloak", or "Sand Veil". If that's not enough proof, let's look at the official Tournament Rules that are used for all official Smogon tournaments

Evasion Clause: A player cannot increase their Pokémon's evasion stat with a move that specifically increases evasion. Items or indirect boosts do not break this clause.

Though the Clause was later amended to include items, it still stands that indirect boosts do NOT break Evasion Clause.

So anyone who wants to get rid of SC/SV because it's "uncompetitive" (as far as I'm concerned that argument is no better than "it's gay"), as far as Smogon's concerned it's not...

Now, we could always ban it because it's broken, but good luck proving that Snow Cloak is broken. I can list 5 Pokemon that have Snow Cloak ans are not broken in UU. By itself, Snow Cloak is weak. If we think that Froslass is broken because of Snow Cloak, then maybe Froslass should get a vote.

I know people WANT to ban Snow Cloak, but, really? Two Pokemon in UU use Snow Cloak, and only one of them abuses it. Sand Veil isn't even worth talking about as 0/9 Pokemon that get it are UU. Maybe it's Snow Cloak that pushes Froslass over the edge?

In OU, we thought Garchomp was broken. So why didn't we ban Sand Veil there? BECAUSE IT WAS THE ABUSER THAT WAS BROKEN, NOT THE ABILITY!

P.S. If people want to change Evasion Clause to include abilities, shouldn't that be handled in PR, not UU? As it stands Snow Cloak does not break Evasion Clause.

 

[Pocket]

Brightpowder ban was stupid anyways - the only reason why it was banned in OU (and thus the lower tiers) is because SubGarchomp abused it. However, people realized that Sub Garchomp with Lefties is just as or even more deadly than before, resulting in Garchomp's ban. Brightpowder was merely a victim for associating with the broken mon. The only reason why we didn't bring it back is b/c "it's not worth the hassle."

So yea, disregarding Brightpowder ban, Evasion clause prohibits players from increasing their Pokemon's evasion stat with a move that specifically increases evasion, as specified by "the fucking rules," as DetroitLolcat puts it.

 

[TheBaron]

I think a Double Team and Minimize ban is a good idea, but Lax Incense, BrightPowder, and Snow Cloak and Sand Veil ban is not a good idea. The latter four don't really do much at 5, 10, 20 and 20%, respectively. I have seen Mud-Slap used more often in UU than I have seen Sand Veil Cacturne. (not joking)