np: UU Stage 4 - I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas

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Ace Emerald

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Sawsbuck is also faster, and easily KOs Roserade with double-edge at +1 (from the sap sipper boost). Most Magmortar are scarfed as well.

Swellow is probably a good answer as well, you can't be put to sleep while poisoned and Roserade would get absolutely wrecked by a Guts Brave Bird.
I hate to sound rude, but thanks to team preview its pretty easy to predict a switch in from those. Even if the Roserade user fails to predict the switch the first time, the next time is a different story. So those specific mons are pretty shaky checks. Thats not to say you need a complete counter to Roserade or anything, but as checks go, there are much better ones out there.
 
I just did the math on Alakazam. With a cutoff of 3.54%, Alakazam should not be OU. When I added the usage numbers for each month and divided the total by three, thus averaging them, I came up with 3.300%. Someone tell me what I did wrong.
 
There's no way Swellow is a good answer to Roserade, I've not done calcs but considering how fragile it is it'll probably die immediately to any attack (a resisted Leaf Storm might even OHKO).

Swampert is probably going to be a good tank. Not so sure about Bronzong. Anyone feel it will replace Empoleon / Registeel as the default special tank?

Also Chansey leaving the tier will probably bring lots of special attackers back into the vogue @_@
 
There's no way Swellow is a good answer to Roserade, I've not done calcs but considering how fragile it is it'll probably die immediately to any attack (a resisted Leaf Storm might even OHKO).
It generally protects to trigger toxic orb, it will outspeed, can't be slept if it's already poisoned and Roserade will be forced out by it at the very least. It can easily revenge kill Roserade, or switch into Sleep Powder after it has been toxiced.

I hate to sound rude, but thanks to team preview its pretty easy to predict a switch in from those. Even if the Roserade user fails to predict the switch the first time, the next time is a different story. So those specific mons are pretty shaky checks. Thats not to say you need a complete counter to Roserade or anything, but as checks go, there are much better ones out there.
If you predict a switch in and Sludge Bomb Sawsbuck he wont appreciate it, but the lingering threat of it coming in will give you a reason not to just fire off Sleep Powder randomly and will make it harder to set up hazards, if you're a spiker. While Sawsbuck is alive it can at least provide some check for Roserade.
 
It generally protects to trigger toxic orb, it will outspeed, can't be slept if it's already poisoned and Roserade will be forced out by it at the very least. It can easily revenge kill Roserade, or switch into Sleep Powder after it has been toxiced.



If you predict a switch in and Sludge Bomb Sawsbuck he wont appreciate it, but the lingering threat of it coming in will give you a reason not to just fire off Sleep Powder randomly and will make it harder to set up hazards, if you're a spiker. While Sawsbuck is alive it can at least provide some check for Roserade.
Thats not a good statement to say just because a poke can switch into sleep powder it makes it an automatic check or counter..both pokes have to be wary of sludgebomb which will KO them both, swellow wont appreciate switching into SR and trying to take any attack from roserade, the spiker set will eventually ware both of them down..if Swellow has a pursuit then maybe it would be considered more of a threat, but since it doesnt do much on it own adding pursuit might not be the best thing for it
 
Thats not a good statement to say just because a poke can switch into sleep powder it makes it an automatic check or counter..both pokes have to be wary of sludgebomb which will KO them both, swellow wont appreciate switching into SR and trying to take any attack from roserade, the spiker set will eventually ware both of them down..if Swellow has a pursuit then maybe it would be considered more of a threat, but since it doesnt do much on it own adding pursuit might not be the best thing for it
Both of them are capable of OHKOing Roserade. Sludge Bomb obviously threatens both of them but if you're just looking to wall Roserade, Bronzong can do that as well as kill it with Psychic.

My original post and point of this discussion has been Pokemon that get around Sleep Powder and are capable of outspeeding/killing Roserade, not what takes hits from it the best.
 
I just did the math on Alakazam. With a cutoff of 3.54%, Alakazam should not be OU. When I added the usage numbers for each month and divided the total by three, thus averaging them, I came up with 3.300%. Someone tell me what I did wrong.
i think the last month (december) is weighted more than the other two months
Immola is right. It's not just the average of the three months since that wouldn't give an accurate image of the current metagame. The formula, at least in 4th gen and I believe currently, is:

Percentage=((1*Percentage in Month 1) + (3*Percentage in Month 2) + (20*Percentage in Month Three))/24

...so December was effectively worth 6.67 times as much as November and 20 times as much as October.
 
Both of them are capable of OHKOing Roserade. Sludge Bomb obviously threatens both of them but if you're just looking to wall Roserade, Bronzong can do that as well as kill it with Psychic.

My original post and point of this discussion has been Pokemon that get around Sleep Powder and are capable of outspeeding/killing Roserade, not what takes hits from it the best.
there are far better than swellow and sawsbuck who can safely switch into sleep powder and other moves and threaten to kill it and threatening once in.

Thats pretty silly to say something that can just "get around sleep powder" It has 3 other moves which are just as threatening. We dont call chandelure a good switch into darminitan just because it can switch into flareblitz. And just as Ace Emerald said, thanks to team preview thats gonna be hard to even think about switching in..Sometimes even thanks to team preview roserade doesnt even have to spam sleep powder
 

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Not to be a devil's advocate or anything, but would these tier changes make Abomasnow / Hippowdon more tolerable? A dangerous Hail Sweeper Mamoswine is now ineligible in UU, and the addition of Bronzong is a good answer to both Hail teams and HippoLand. The loss of Alakazam in these teams somewhat helps as well.
 
there are far better than swellow and sawsbuck who can safely switch into sleep powder and other moves and threaten to kill it and threatening once in.

Thats pretty silly to say something that can just "get around sleep powder" It has 3 other moves which are just as threatening. We dont call chandelure a good switch into darminitan just because it can switch into flareblitz. And just as Ace Emerald said, thanks to team preview thats gonna be hard to even think about switching in..Sometimes even thanks to team preview roserade doesnt even have to spam sleep powder
Chandelure can easily switch into a choiced Darmintan on any move except for EQ, which it has an answer to in Air Balloon.

The original discussion was sparked from worrying about Sleep Powder, obviously it wont always be a factor in the game, the Toxic Spike variant likely wont be using a lot of Sleep Powder.

Sawsbuck outspeeds Roserade, can easily OHKO it and gets stronger if it switches into Sleep Powder. While Roserade can kill it, it's a decent check. Scizor doesn't completely stop Terrakion in it's tracks but a STAB, Technician, Super effective Bullet Punch is a good way to force it to switch. It's an offensive check, not a complete counter.
 
Not to be a devil's advocate or anything, but would these tier changes make Abomasnow / Hippowdon more tolerable? A dangerous Hail Sweeper Mamoswine is now ineligible in UU, and the addition of Bronzong is a good answer to both Hail teams and HippoLand. The loss of Alakazam in these teams somewhat helps as well.
I'd definitely target that more at Sandstorm than Hail. Remember, Hail was banned based on broken aspects within itself that cannot be controlled (Snow Cloak) / dealt with (BlizzSpam) no matter what opposing Pokemon are and while a decent way of trying to handle hail, Bronzong is still not going to change the fight vs hail more than Cobalion, Registeel, etc would. It's still going to miss. It's still going to get worn down by hazards and Blizzard, Hail, and etc.
 
Chandelure can easily switch into a choiced Darmintan on any move except for EQ, which it has an answer to in Air Balloon.
Perhaps you forget Rock Slide.

Sawsbuck outspeeds Roserade, can easily OHKO it and gets stronger if it switches into Sleep Powder. While Roserade can kill it, it's a decent check. Scizor doesn't completely stop Terrakion in it's tracks but a STAB, Technician, Super effective Bullet Punch is a good way to force it to switch. It's an offensive check, not a complete counter.
Do you think that forcing a switch is enough for stopping a threat?
 
Do you think that forcing a switch is enough for stopping a threat?
It can be, as eventually they run out of counters to switch into you and are forced to deal with you and lose. Obviously every game is situational but being able to outspeed and comfortable OHKO with a 100% accurate move and providing an answer to a common trick shouldn't be discounted.

Again, the discussion started from the threat of Roserade's Sleep Powder, not what walls Roserade best. It's not about what Pokemon can take a hit from Roserade the best, it's about what Pokemon can switch into Sleep Powder and force it out or kill it.
 
It doesn't matter that Swellow can OHKO Roserade if it can't switch into it ... thing about it this way:

Roserade switches in. Are you going to switch in Swellow? If you switch into Sludge Bomb / Leaf Storm, you are dead. If you switch into Sleep Powder and you haven't got Toxic Orb activated yet, you've lost a Pokemon. If you switch into Spikes, you've still taken 25% from SR on a Pokemon that cannot recover health even from Leftovers ... and that's the ideal case. You COULD say that based on what item Roserade is holding (if it has Leftovers or not) then you have a better chance of predicting what Roserade is going to do, but the fact is that even in the ideal case you are taking so much damage with only a prospective U-turn as compensation (or you could blindly Facade / Brave Bird, because Roserade is going to switch out).

We don't call Chandelure a good switch-in to Darmanitan because it can switch into Flare Blitz, we call Chandelure a good switch-in to Darmanitan because it's also immune to Superpower and 4x resists U-turn. Even then it's not too good a switch-in because it's vulnerable to EQ and Rock Slide + is weak to SR, and the two comparisons aren't completely equal because Roserade is considerably more versatile than Darmanitan (it also gets a second STAB). Swellow CAN switch into Roserade's Sleep Powder, but so much more of the time it will be doing something else. We say Primeape is a good switch-in to Darkrai not only because it can avoid sleep, but because it 1) resists Darkrai's Dark STAB, 2) has U-turn and 3) can threaten to outspeed and OHKO with Close Combat. Swellow achieves the latter two but (crucially) not the first.

We can say Registeel is a safe switch-in to Roserade because it's bulky enough to take sleep and has nothing to fear from any attack Roserade may use. Roserade can put up hazards, but it won't be immediately threatening to Registeel. So Registeel is safe. We CANNOT say the same for Swellow. You CAN say that Swellow is a good switch-in to Roserade once you ascertain it will not be attacking or using Sleep Powder (viz. it's low on health and you know it's going to Synthesis / Rest, or you know it's a defensive set and is laying down hazards), but you can't say Swellow is a good Roserade counter, or even check, because it cannot switch into Roserade much of the time.
 
Percentage=((1*Percentage in Month 1) + (3*Percentage in Month 2) + (20*Percentage in Month Three))/24

...so December was effectively worth 6.67 times as much as November and 20 times as much as October.
That is a fucking preposterous way to run things. I mean, why would one month be six times more important than the other two months. This needs to change. If we keep running it this way, we might as well not even look at the first two months and just call them "practice months". The months should be added and divided by three. That is the fair and equal way.
 
Speaking of which,

Have those paragraphs been posted on why SW is gone yet, or has the holidays taken you all to a bliss?

I am just kind of curious the reasoning. I never had an issue with Blizzspam before, than ToF from half court yells about it, and everyone forgets about SC.
 
That is a fucking preposterous way to run things. I mean, why would one month be six times more important than the other two months. This needs to change. If we keep running it this way, we might as well not even look at the first two months and just call them "practice months". The months should be added and divided by three. That is the fair and equal way.
To put this politely, you have no idea what you're talking about. Honestly, think about why something is a certain way before you get unreasonably angry about it. Did the thought not cross your mind that weighted statistics are actually more accurate of an indication of the metagames?

Take sports stats for example, let's say hockey for simplicity. So, a player played 30 games and we want to find what his stats will likely be for the next games. Similar to Alakazam, this player had 5 points his first 10 games, 10 points his second 10 games, and 15 points his last 10 games. What do you think is the pace this player will keep up? Do you really think he's equally likely to drop to 5 points then he is to increase or keep his pace? That's not the case, and I don't think you actually think that either.

I think you used Alakazam on your team and you don't want to replace him. The system is a convenient thing to blame when it's really just the fact that Alakazam is being used in OU.

@ Above:

I think most of the paragraphs are done / almost done, they should be up shortly.
 
Ok, I see how a weighted system is the right way to go, but the current system is far too heavily weighted to the third month. Maybe it should be weighted with 1xM1, 2xM2, and 5xM3. You are correct in you allegation that I use Alakazam, and you are also correct that I don't want to replace him, as he is a cornerstone of my team. However, when you say "The system is a convenient thing to blame," you are correct. It is not only conveniently blamable, it is the correct thing to blame for basically making December the only month that counts.
 
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