np: UU Stage 4 - I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas

[Banedon]

Well in my experience if Kingdra is special then Empoleon does a great job of walling it (it's usually 252/252+ SpD after all). Empoleon can't do much back, but I'd still go for the burn and wear Kingdra down. It's not like Kingdra will deal much damage to Empoleon anyway; it needs something like rain Specs Hydro Pump to deal serious damage (and it's not even that serious). If Kingdra is physical then Empoleon takes more damage, but Kingdra needs to boost to deal that damage and it cannot do that safely since Empoleon will always be threatening a burn. Finally if Kingdra is one of those RestTalk or ChestoRest variants, Empoleon can phaze, which with 5th gen sleep mechanics means it'll have some difficulty waking up and / or make Kingdra waste its Chesto Berry.

I can't see Empoleon losing to Kingdra unless Kingdra is the last Pokemon, when Empoleon would at least be able to get some damage in (unless Kingdra has Rest) and possibly burn. I suppose if Empoleon gets worn down over the match, it is vulnerable, but then that means Lugia can't wall Caterpie because it can get taken down to 1% health and die on the switch-in to Tackle ...

 

[jamashawalker]

Calcs are assuming the SpDef. Empoleon Set:


Modest Specs Hydro Pump-
In rain: 37.1% - 43.8%
W/o Rain: 25% - 29.3%

Modest LO Hydro Pump-
In Rain: 32.3% - 37.9%
W/o Rain: 21.5% - 25.5%

Modest LO Surf-
In Rain:25.5% - 30.1%
W/o Rain: 16.9% - 20.2%

Modest LO Draco Meteor- 25% - 29.8%

208 Atk EVs Rash LO Waterfall-
In Rain: 29.6% - 34.9%
W/o Rain: 19.9% - 23.4%


252 Atk Adamant LO Waterfall-
In Rain: 33.6% - 39.5%
W/o Rain: 22.6% - 26.6%


252 Atk Adamant Leftovers Waterfall-
In Rain: 25.8% - 30.6%
W/o Rain: 17.2% - 20.4%


+1 252 Adamant LO waterfall-
In Rain:50.3% - 59.4%
W/o Rain: 33.6% - 39.5%

+1 252 Adamant Leftovers waterfall
In Rain: 38.7% - 45.7%
W/o Rain: 25.8% - 30.6%


*Outrage does the same amount of damage as Waterfall in rain.

I'll admit that the special set is nearly pinned with the only move hydro pump in rain doing respectable damage. But I still wouldnt consder empoleon a good counter because there isnt much empoleon could do back other than an ice beam which does 26.7% - 31.5% to 0/0 kingdra. lol more than what kingdra is doing back not named hydro pump. still empoleon would have its hands full dealing with a physical set or even a mixed Rain Waterfall. Since we are all on the topic of empoleon being a good counter to Kingdra in rain and all other rain sweepers we have to assume that rain is up most of the time. Letts not forget also empoleon's biggest downfall no reliable recovery :/ it is defintely not one of those pokes that can keep taking hard hits over and over again, even if it does resist water

 

[CrazyBacon]

Ferroseed can take repeated hits and leech seed kindra and annoy it, any physical moves will also cause iron barbs damage. It does however lose too chesto rest (eventually) and the lack of leftovers hurts a tad.

I'd just like too say that max speed deoxys is amazing. As well as having a reasonably fast taunt, it can just sit there and sponge attacks pretty much all game, and recovering when needed, whilst setting up spikes, and parlysing/toxicing stuff, there is very little you can do to stop it getting up a layer or 2.

 

[destinyunknown]

I disagree. First, rain hasn't a weather inducer like Abomasnow / Snover in hail. You should use RD, and this is likely to cause a 6 - 5 at the beginning of the game. Then you can changue the weather with Sunny Day or Hippopotas... Besides, Tornadus will be OU soon due to his usage, and this is a significant loss to rain.

On the other hand, there are some counters for Kabutops and company like Empoleon (he can run Aqua Jet for a nice rk), Poliwrath...

Why starting 5-6? I mean use sand is REALLY start with 5-6 because is not like hippopotas will be doing much beside stealth rock set up. While the rain dance user of choice (let's say uxie) can be pretty useful through the match if played well.

Sunny Day is not that common and is a waste in general (and if you don't have a team centered around sun, the Sunny Day user will probably die after or before) I mean yeah you can use chansey for that but good luck in getting momentum with chansey on a offensive team. And i don't see hippopotas coming in any rain sweeper. Sure you can remove it once but... what then?

Is tornadus THAT important to rain teams? I don't think so. I mean there are better RD supporters than tornadus, and while it gets prankster and hurricane, that's not so good after all. Uxie can set up rocks and crobat is faster (and has roost) and can be as good as tornadus supporting. Zapdos is bulky and has thunder (to deal with bulky waters) as well as hp flying to crush grass types. So it's not like Tornadus is the salving grace of rain teams in this stage, i even think is kinda overrated in this job.

Kabutops has low kick and superpower. Aqua Jet needs kabutops pretty weakened to KO (unless heavy atk investment), and if you are using aqua jet empoleon then you lose easier to kingdra and omastar.

Using poliwrath is only showing overcentralization. I mean, think of a normal battle (without rain) and see how good it is. I like poliwrath but sadly is mediocre in UU, and while it checks kabutops consistently, it has no recovery and his attacking prowess is mediocre too. It also loses to the special rain sweepers if using a spread to check kabutops hard. And if you don't face rain is dead weight most of the time, it's not like using scarf krookodile to check Alakazam (because scarf krookodile is good in UU on his own)

 

[TM13IceBeam]

you don't go 5-6 with RD Tornadus, usually if you play it out correctly it's a 5-5 more like. tornadus is so strong that hurricane can 2hko many stuff

uxie is a great bulky supporter, there's also accelgor if you want a fast rain dance + spikes, etc

also generally toxic stall > non-chestoresto stuff, and i don't see how kingdra can easily setup on empoleon when it can use roar to > kingdra

 

[Razza]

so what mons are moving up in the tier change and when does this change occur?

 

[Ace Emerald]

so what mons are moving up in the tier change and when does this change occur?

We don't know for sure, but certain mons like Swampert, Bronzong, and Meinshao may be coming down, while other like Jolteon and Dugtrio may leave. You can check the OU usage if you want to see everything. We'll get the exact list and implement it in early January most likely.

 

[NirvanaR]

Why starting 5-6? I mean use sand is REALLY start with 5-6 because is not like hippopotas will be doing much beside stealth rock set up. While the rain dance user of choice (let's say uxie) can be pretty useful through the match if played well.

Sunny Day is not that common and is a waste in general (and if you don't have a team centered around sun, the Sunny Day user will probably die after or before) I mean yeah you can use chansey for that but good luck in getting momentum with chansey on a offensive team. And i don't see hippopotas coming in any rain sweeper. Sure you can remove it once but... what then?

Is tornadus THAT important to rain teams? I don't think so. I mean there are better RD supporters than tornadus, and while it gets prankster and hurricane, that's not so good after all. Uxie can set up rocks and crobat is faster (and has roost) and can be as good as tornadus supporting. Zapdos is bulky and has thunder (to deal with bulky waters) as well as hp flying to crush grass types. So it's not like Tornadus is the salving grace of rain teams in this stage, i even think is kinda overrated in this job.

Kabutops has low kick and superpower. Aqua Jet needs kabutops pretty weakened to KO (unless heavy atk investment), and if you are using aqua jet empoleon then you lose easier to kingdra and omastar.

Using poliwrath is only showing overcentralization. I mean, think of a normal battle (without rain) and see how good it is. I like poliwrath but sadly is mediocre in UU, and while it checks kabutops consistently, it has no recovery and his attacking prowess is mediocre too. It also loses to the special rain sweepers if using a spread to check kabutops hard. And if you don't face rain is dead weight most of the time, it's not like using scarf krookodile to check Alakazam (because scarf krookodile is good in UU on his own)

If you use a RD team against a good player, you are going to start 6 - 5 or without rain. Why? Because it's too easy to predict what will be your first Pokemon, and your opponent will be ready for kill the RD user (Tornadus, Sableye, Mew and Uxie) and takes advantage of it. For example, I can use a Rotom-C specs with Trick, Volt Switch and Leaf Storm. He gives OHKO to Tornadus and Sableye. Trick steals the Damp Rock, and forces a switch in that gives advantage thanks to Volt Switch.

Obviously, Hippopotas can't take a water attack but he can come on a free turn and ruining rain.

Btw, the standard set of Kabutops is Swords Dance / Waterfall / Stone Edge / Aqua Jet, so Empoleon is a pretty good counter.

 

[GTS]

Under Rain, Kabutops can forgo the SD and don a Choice Band, opening up that last slot for Low Kick or Superpower, which Empoleon will not enjoy in the slightest.

 

[NirvanaR]

Under Rain, Kabutops can forgo the SD and don a Choice Band, opening up that last slot for Low Kick or Superpower, which Empoleon will not enjoy in the slightest.

I don't think it. It's uncommon to see a rain abuser with a choice item (unless Kingdra, sometimes). They usually have a Life Orb, allowing them to changue their attacks for a better sweep.

 

[PK Gaming]

Is it just me, or is nobody using Rain. Well, let me rephrase that "nobody good." Because I just got back from laddering with all the good players (reach, sjc, flareblitz, snunch,catlol etc... its open season) and none of them are using rain on their main accounts. Is it because they want consistent wins, or maybe they find their regular teams more versatile...

 

[fatty]

i think that's exactly it. rain is simply just not that reliable, which is the bane of any strong laddering team.

 

[destinyunknown]

If you use a RD team against a good player, you are going to start 6 - 5 or without rain. Why? Because it's too easy to predict what will be your first Pokemon, and your opponent will be ready for kill the RD user (Tornadus, Sableye, Mew and Uxie) and takes advantage of it. For example, I can use a Rotom-C specs with Trick, Volt Switch and Leaf Storm. He gives OHKO to Tornadus and Sableye. Trick steals the Damp Rock, and forces a switch in that gives advantage thanks to Volt Switch.

Obviously, Hippopotas can't take a water attack but he can come on a free turn and ruining rain.

Btw, the standard set of Kabutops is Swords Dance / Waterfall / Stone Edge / Aqua Jet, so Empoleon is a pretty good counter.

Yeah I see how useful is tricking choice scarf to tornadus when he will set up the 8 turns of rain thanks to prankster and then being faster an smashing you in tha face with Hurricane -.- Sableye it's okay (it still sets up the rain faster anyways) but your paragraph can be applied to any battle this gen just because that's the benefit (and the backdraw too) of Wifi-Clause. And consider that the RD user can be good too.

Hippopotas coming for free in a rain team? on what, uxie? And even uxie can pack yawn so it's not like ''free''. Empoleon depends of the spread to check special kingdra or check kabutops, because he usually can't withstand both with the same ev spread. Resisting attacks is not everything.

Also Nirvana, I will like you to think about again when discussing what i have post, because i know you will post against anything i say just because who i am.

 

[NirvanaR]

Yeah I see how useful is tricking choice scarf to tornadus when he will set up the 8 turns of rain thanks to prankster and then being faster an smashing you in tha face with Hurricane -.- Sableye it's okay (it still sets up the rain faster anyways) but your paragraph can be applied to any battle this gen just because that's the benefit (and the backdraw too) of Wifi-Clause. And consider that the RD user can be good too.

Hippopotas coming for free in a rain team? on what, uxie? And even uxie can pack yawn so it's not like ''free''. Empoleon depends of the spread to check special kingdra or check kabutops, because he usually can't withstand both with the same ev spread. Resisting attacks is not everything.

Also Nirvana, I will like you to think about again when discussing what i have post, because i know you will post against anything i say just because who i am.

Meh... Specs Rotom-C against Tornadus... Rotom will use Volt Switch. 6 - 5. And here is the free switch in for Hippopotas.

I don't know what you mean, I always have thought that rain isn't a broken playstyle in UU. I don't hate you lol

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Meh... Rotom-C specs against Tornadus... Rotom will use Volt Switch. 6 - 5. And here is the free switch in for Hippopotas.

I don't know what you mean, I always have thought that rain isn't a broken playstyle in UU. I don't hate you lol

Usage statistics disagree with you: http://pastebin.com/HMqqgj43

More often than not you'll end up running into the Scarf'd version. And you know what's the implication of tricking specs onto Tornadus? Get OHKO'd by Hurricane because Tornadus is faster.

Besides, if someone sees a Hippopotas on the opposing team, the natural response is to keep as many of their rain dancers alive as they can. That's the basics of any weather war...

 

[NirvanaR]

Usage statistics disagree with you: http://pastebin.com/HMqqgj43

More often than not you'll end up running into the Scarf'd version. And you know what's the implication of tricking specs onto Tornadus? Get OHKO'd by Hurricane because Tornadus is faster.

Besides, if someone sees a Hippopotas on the opposing team, the natural response is to keep as many of their rain dancers alive as they can. That's the basics of any weather war...

No tricking. Volt Switch. I repeat, this is just a example. There are more ways, and each player has their own way.

Btw, the RD teams need rain almost all the time, otherwise they get a quick defeat.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

No tricking. Volt Switch. I repeat, this is just a example. There are more ways, and each player has their own way.

Btw, the RD teams need rain almost all the time, otherwise they get a quick defeat.

The RD teams don't need rain almost all the time, and even if Tornadus can't set it up you can always have Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo do the job themselves. Rain isn't like Sandstorm where there is only one inducer.

I don't see how your quick defeat comes along tbh... and again if I see a Hippopotas I'll obviously do whatever I can to keep Tornadus/*insert Rain Dancer here* alive. See a Rotom-C? Send in Jolteon to take the fall: a -2 Leaf Storm is asking to be setup bait but that's the worst case scenario: you lose Jolteon. And get a free setup opportunity. Best case scenario? Jolteon switches into a Volt Switch and starts laughing.

 

[Razza]

So im relatively new to UU and every time I battle a rain team I get my ass handed to me, what can i do to prevent this? I am running heysups darmanitan team btw

 

[FlareBlitz]

So im relatively new to UU and every time I battle a rain team I get my ass handed to me, what can i do to prevent this?

Use a team that isn't horribly rain weak? Kabutops alone rapes Heysup's entire team, without an SD. That's not to say it's a bad team, just that it's really weak against rain...

 

[Heysup]

My Darmanitan team is pretty outdated.....I'll do my best to come up with another team but for now you need to adjust it a bit. I'd probably suggest this: Shaymin over Roserade, Raikou over Zapdos, maybe a different scarfer over Darmanitan.

 

[Godsend]

A very very underrated pokemon right now is Lanturn. I've been using this set:

Lanturn (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 100 HP / 252 SAtk / 124 SDef / 32 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

It's surprisingly awesome. 100 hp reaches 416, a lefties number. Max SpA to hit as hard as possible, 32 Spe outpaces 0 Spe Hitmontop and below, the rest is dumped into Sp.D. It is good at maintaining momentum when paired with a faster U-turner, usually I use either Darm or Victini. It's got great typing and is like the best switch in to offensive Zapdos, Jolteon, Rotom-H and Choiced Raikou. I love this little bastard.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

A very very underrated pokemon right now is Lanturn. I've been using this set:

Lanturn (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 100 HP / 252 SAtk / 124 SDef / 32 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

It's surprisingly awesome. 100 hp reaches 416, a lefties number. Max SpA to hit as hard as possible, 32 Spe outpaces 0 Spe Hitmontop and below, the rest is dumped into Sp.D. It is good at maintaining momentum when paired with a faster U-turner, usually I use either Darm or Victini. It's got great typing and is like the best switch in to offensive Zapdos, Jolteon, Rotom-H and Choiced Raikou. I love this little bastard.

I've tried a similar set to that except with Heal Bell over Volt Switch. I'm not sure if Volt Switch is really necessary on this set as by switching in on what you need to switch in on, you pretty much kill the other guy's momentum anyway. Either way, Lanturn is good.

 

[Godsend]

I've tried a similar set to that except with Heal Bell over Volt Switch. I'm not sure if Volt Switch is really necessary on this set as by switching in on what you need to switch in on, you pretty much kill the other guy's momentum anyway. Either way, Lanturn is good.

Volt Switch is SO important. With Roserade running around, it is so easy to gain momentum. If anything, Thunderbolt is less important, at first I used Thunder Wave over it, but I thought it'd be better. Also, having a slow bulky turner is good in general.

 

[Banedon]

I'll admit that the special set is nearly pinned with the only move hydro pump in rain doing respectable damage. But I still wouldnt consder empoleon a good counter because there isnt much empoleon could do back other than an ice beam which does 26.7% - 31.5% to 0/0 kingdra. lol more than what kingdra is doing back not named hydro pump. still empoleon would have its hands full dealing with a physical set or even a mixed Rain Waterfall. Since we are all on the topic of empoleon being a good counter to Kingdra in rain and all other rain sweepers we have to assume that rain is up most of the time. Letts not forget also empoleon's biggest downfall no reliable recovery :/ it is defintely not one of those pokes that can keep taking hard hits over and over again, even if it does resist water

Yes but most of those calcs involve rain and / or +1 from Dragon Dance. Empoleon survives all of them and can at worst phaze Kingdra out, at best burn Kingdra with Scald. Factoring in Leftovers recovery + the fact that Empoleon is burning rain turns, I don't see why Empoleon is not a Kingdra counter. It can be worn down, sure, but it's still a Kingdra counter.

Also I'm still wondering about this:

Show me what this Snow Cloak-less hail team is. I'm deeply skeptical it can't be beaten.

 

[ToF]

Why don't you just ask SJCrew since it's his team?