np: UU Stage 7 - Brand New Day

[DetroitLolcat]

Kingdra's a great Pokemon in UU right now, though it's not the titan it was a couple rounds ago (that title goes to Raikou by the way...). What's nice about Kingdra is the unpredictability factor, since the Dragon Dance and Choice Specs have opposite counters (i.e. the things that counter Dragon Dance don't counter Choice Specs and vice versa). Kingdra draws many comparisons to Gen 4 Salamence, just on a smaller scale. Kingdra's nowhere near Suspect status of course. Slowking's probably the best check to Kingdra, but that's not enough of a reason to use it over Slowbro, who's tailored much better to the metagame. Empoleon can check the dragon as well, but without recovery and a Spikes weakness it will get worn down.

Also, I've been trolling around on the ladder for a week or so with a Rain team, and it's great for an "element of surprise" factor against unsuspecting players, and a well-built Rain team seems to be effective if it can find a way around threats like Bulk Up Scrafty or Defensive Roserade, since with Swift Swimmers the Speed war is all but guaranteed. Also, with no more auto-weather (free lil' hippo), Rain has an unprecedented opportunity to be the premier weather in UU. Sweepers like Ludicolo devastate offensive teams, and even outside of the Rain SD Kabutops can mow through teams with Aqua Jet.

What does everyone think of Rain teams in UU at the moment?

 

[SJCrew]

Kingdra doesn't really have 'hard counters'. He's versatile enough to where you should be expecting either special or physical at all times, and just barely powerful enough to 2HKO almost anything that can 2HKO him. The only relevant offensive Pokemon he has real trouble with is Cobalion, who can avoid the 2HKO from even +1 Waterfall, set up on Outrage, and sweep past him. Escavalier too, but he sucks.

@ Lolcat: I think he's a viable suspect. We did establish that he's hard to deal with not only first turn, but every turn after that. But it's going to take some form of outcry or consensus for us to put him on the chopping block and evaluate him.

I also think that Kingdra is the sole reason Slowking is better suited to this metagame than Slowbro is. The lack of Dragon Tail is a defining factor that makes him not work as well as he should against Kingdra, despite their stats being similar when tailored to their weaker defensive area. Chesto Rest can set up on Slowbro all day.

 

[kokoloko]

Eh, 'outcry' and 'consesnsus' make it sound harder than it actually is to declare something suspect. If a few reputable players (or better yet, council members) feel it should be looked into, it can be declared a suspect. Remember, there's always the option to vote "no ban".

Speaking of which, while at the moment I would indeed be inclined to vote no ban on Kingdra (shocker, I know), I would not be opposed in the slightest to making it a suspect. I know FlareBlitz has been wanting to vote on Kingdra for a while, SJCrew just said he thinks it's suspect worthy, and I see a few people agree that it's quite a menace, so if anyone else wants to push for a Kingdra vote, this would be a great time to make your voice heard.

Remember that declaring something a suspect does not necessarily mean it will be banned.

And since we're on the topic, I might as well tell you guys how suspects are going to work from now on. This thread (in addition to IRC discussions and conversations between senate members) will be used to gauge whether Pokemon are suspect worthy. Once a Pokemon is declared a suspect, a separate thread will be opened, which will be used solely for discussion and debate relevant to the suspect only (the megathread will be used for everything else, as always). After one or two weeks of discussion in the thread, the senate will vote and the results will be announced there.

The purpose of this is to isolate the relevant discussion in order to make it easier for both council members and the general public to be better informed and gauge the opinion of the playerbase.

Anyway, being about a month into this new metagame, people should have a good grasp of what's suspect/ban-worthy and what isn't, so like I said, speak up if you want a Kingdra suspect thread (or anything else, really), and I'll talk to Jabba about it (thread would open after Senate applications close).

 

[pokemonisfun]

Ok then can I say I think Kingdra should be suspect then?

There are literally 0 UU counters to Kingdra because as people have said. I used to think 95/95/85 offenses were really mediocre since all Kingdra are boosting up or using Choice Specs those stats are rather deceiving. Did you think that those stats could allow an OHKO on Zapdos or even BU Scrafty after something as simple as one layer of Spikes (Rain+Hydro Pump)? Or did you know that it could swamp out in just two hits physically defensive brats like Swampert by a huge margin (DD+Outrage)? Even defensive Suicune gets obliterated if Kingdra decides to hold a Life Orb with outrage. Given these bulky waters are not too amazing anyways in a metagame where most attackers can easily get pass them, but that does not take away that they have enormous defenses and still get shot down easily.

But it has been said before the best way to kill Kingdra is to use offense, which is very true for DD variants for the most part but then you have to look at Rain Dance Kingdra too. I said it before, Kingdra after a single turn of set up can outrun Choice Scarf Mienshao, and if it really wanted to, far surpass Choice Scarf Azelf. Absolutely zero Pokemon that are primarily offensive will take anything less than ~85% from Rain Dance Kingdra while absolutely zero Pokemon bar Ditto (except opposing Kingdra I guess) will be able to outspeed you unless they have resists to your STAB (which by the way is only Empoleon if you have not figured yet) in UU.

I bet you are thinking ha ha, you must be joking hilarious! No comrades I am serious actually, Kingdra has the ability to outspeed and OHKO every primarily offensive Pokemon in UU (or come very very very close to an OHKO that you could have secured if you did something as simple as set up Spikes) with just four moves, Rain Dance, Draco Meteor, Hydro Pump and Surf (for accuracy).

Now you are thinking, I am sure, well even Slaking would sound scary the way you load up on the rhetoric! I tell you know, I hate it when people delude stupider people with word twisting; so I promise you comrade I will not do that to you. Look at the UU list yourself and do the calcs yourself because i am far too lazy, and you will see firstly what I said is true. Set up sweepers like Porygon-Z lack bulk and cannot OHKO bulkier offensive Pokemon like Cobalion, it lacks coverage but Kingdra doesn't. Weavile too lack bulks and even speed, it fails to outspeed Choice Scarf users as slow as Chandelure, but Kingdra doesn't! Sharpedo has coverage and Speed but lacks the power to tear through things like opposing Kingdra!

But then you ask, can kingdra even set up? The short answer is yes, the longe answer is yeeeessss! Ha ha, I am kidding, but seriously. There are no unboosted moves (Life Orb counts!) that can OHKO Kingdra in UU except Dragon ones. None. Nada. Forget the fact status cripples you (burn only a little people) you can set up on your average Rhyperior now and still have enough health for a few turns of havoc. If you can OHKO everything three free turns should equal three kills. So essentially you can easily set up on offensive Pokemon like Zapdos or Rhyperior or Chandelure or any defensive Pokemon basically or anything that you resist. That is a lot.

You see comrade, there is no sweeper that goes busting through offensive Pokemon like RD Kingdra which, as i see it, demands it to be suspect.

 

[alexwolf]

Slowking's probably the best check because of the Regenerator, but two things can go wrong:

1. Slowking can take ~140% over two hits while only switching out for Regenerator once. This isn't hard to do if you play aggressively enough with your Kingdra (if it's SpD Slowking you'll need DD Kingdra and if its Def Slowking you'll need Specs / LO with Meteor, but it's not like you can assume a set with Kingdra).

2. Kingdra can invest enough in bulk to make it so Slowking's Dragon Tail doesn't break its Substitute in one hit and proceed to Dragon Dance up (you need max HP if Slowking is Relaxed / Sassy as opposed to -Atk, but it's not like using ~160 HP in unheard of, so that still gives your Sub a good chance to not break).

I was talking about the utility counter Slowking, which was made to beat Kingdra. If i understood well your first point you say that Slowking can be forced to take 70% each time he comes into Kingdra, so the second time it comes in it will die (from physical or special depending on the Slowking). Let's only talk about the SubDD set, as i already mentioned that i was talking about SpD Slowking. The first time you come in Kingdra uses Sub/DD, and hits you for 62.59 - 74.04% at +1, while getting phazed out. What happens now the second time? You go to your dedicated physical wall, because you know that Kingdra is physical. Don't forget that what makes Kingdra so hard to deal with is its versatility, but once you take this out, it becomes way easier to handle. Also after 2 SR rounds and D-Tail damage, Kingdra will be at 50% life at best (meaning that it came in both times unharmed, and that D-Tail did the minimum amount of damage), so most pokes will be able to handle it pretty well.

So unless Kingdra runs enough bulk on its SubDD set, which i doubt it will (Kingdra needs a ridiculous amount of HP to have more than 50% chance of keeping the Sub. For example Kingdra with 70 HP evs, still takes 24% min from D-Tail), unless Slowking becomes really popular, Slowking seems as a full proof counter to Kingdra.

 

[Pocket]

Banning Kingdra would simply be "banning the next best thing." Kingdra has stellar stats, but nothing outstanding (although its typing is phenomenal). I'd say Kingdra is slightly more threatening than Nidoking (b/c Kingdra can further increase its damage output + speed with RD / DD), which does not translate to "get this out of UU." DD Kingdra is plagued by its 85 base Speed, which makes it easy to check with Scarf Pokemon. DD Kingdra also fails to hit hard without resorting to Outrage, LO recoils, or setting up multiple DDs, which wont be THAT easy.

Special Rain Sweeper can cover for its passable Special Attack and mediocre Speed with the help of Rain-boosted Surf / Hydro Pumps and doubling of Speed. However, this drastic boost in firepower only lasts for 4 turns; if you're getting swept by this Kingdra you were either outplayed or sorely ill-prepared for one of the top threats in UU.

I understand that Rain can be prolonged for another extra 3 turns with the help of Damp Rock Rain setters, but that's a different issue altogether. Banning Kingdra would not solve this problem.

 

[Mazinger]

While I don't necessarily think it needs to be banned, I agree that kingdra is definitely suspect-worthy for the reasons everyone else has listed; its seemingly average offensive stats are more than made up for by its strong moves and good coverage, making it impossible to actually counter it (it can be played around rather easily with some mons but still), its good bulk gives it enough set-up opprtunities, and the scarfers that outspeed it (assuming DD) can't come in safely at all. This all just combines to make it incredibly threatening to basically all teams, especially since it can run a ton of sets and some have very different checks/counters. At this time I am leaning towards not banning it, but I can definitely see why it would be a suspect.

About slowking, having used it quite a lot I would say it doesn't hard-counter kingdra, but in the vast majority of games it holds it off very well. This doesn't mean that kingdra can't break through it, but it can generally survive long enough to prevent a sweep, I haven't had that much of a problem dealing with kingdra when running slowking.

 

[kokoloko]

I was talking about the utility counter Slowking, which was made to beat Kingdra. If i understood well your first point you say that Slowking can be forced to take 70% each time he comes into Kingdra, so the second time it comes in it will die (from physical or special depending on the Slowking). Let's only talk about the SubDD set, as i already mentioned that i was talking about SpD Slowking. The first time you come in Kingdra uses Sub/DD, and hits you for 62.59 - 74.04% at +1, while getting phazed out. What happens now the second time? You go to your dedicated physical wall, because you know that Kingdra is physical. Don't forget that what makes Kingdra so hard to deal with is its versatility, but once you take this out, it becomes way easier to handle. Also after 2 SR rounds and D-Tail damage, Kingdra will be at 50% life at best (meaning that it came in both times unharmed, and that D-Tail did the minimum amount of damage), so most pokes will be able to handle it pretty well.

So unless Kingdra runs enough bulk on its SubDD set, which i doubt it will (Kingdra needs a ridiculous amount of HP to have more than 50% chance of keeping the Sub. For example Kingdra with 70 HP evs, still takes 24% min from D-Tail), unless Slowking becomes really popular, Slowking seems as a full proof counter to Kingdra.

I know all this. I made that set specifically so it could be a great check to both versions of Kingdra, remember? You even commented on the thread as I was writing it up. This is why I know Kingdra can break through Slowking--I've used both pretty extensively and I've both seen it and done it.

As for the bolded part, what physical wall (that's actually relevant to the metagame, please) beats DD Kingdra 1 on 1? I can only think of like... Porygon2.

Banning Kingdra would simply be "banning the next best thing." Kingdra has stellar stats, but nothing outstanding (although its typing is phenomenal). I'd say Kingdra is slightly more threatening than Nidoking (b/c Kingdra can further increase its damage output + speed with RD / DD), which does not translate to "get this out of UU." DD Kingdra is plagued by its 85 base Speed, which makes it easy to check with Scarf Pokemon. DD Kingdra also fails to hit hard without resorting to Outrage, LO recoils, or setting up multiple DDs, which wont be THAT easy.

Special Rain Sweeper can cover for its passable Special Attack and mediocre Speed with the help of Rain-boosted Surf / Hydro Pumps and doubling of Speed. However, this drastic boost in firepower only lasts for 4 turns; if you're getting swept by this Kingdra you were either outplayed or sorely ill-prepared to one of the top threats in UU.

I understand that Rain can be prolonged for another extra 3 turns with the help of Damp Rock Rain setters, but that's a different issue altogether. Banning Kingdra would not solve this problem.

This is exactly the kind of post that would go in the suspect discussion thread once it's open, so thanks for providing an excellent example. I suppose it's 'okay' to post this here for now, but I would prefer if actual debate on the topic of Kingdra was held off until the thread is open--just so everything is in one place.

PS. I don't even think Kingdra is the best offensive Pokemon in OU--that title belongs to Raikou imo (and yet, the one thing I would love to see BL'd is Chandelure lol).

 

[SJCrew]

Eh, 'outcry' and 'consesnsus' make it sound harder than it actually is to declare something suspect. If a few reputable players (or better yet, council members) feel it should be looked into, it can be declared a suspect. Remember, there's always the option to vote "no ban".

That's how we've always done it. The players decided what they wanted us to suspect, we took it to Jabba, and he got the final say in what would be suspect. Obv, you can change things up since you're co-leader, but I've always thought letting the people decide what they wanted to suspect was a good idea. We're affecting their ladder, so some form of consideration is desired.

EDIT: Ok, I could have used a better word than outcry, but I think we agree on the consensus part.

 

[alexwolf]

@kokoloko

Lol i forgot that you made this analysis, i feel so stupid for telling you what your own set does :D

But anyway some pokes that can take physical Kingdra on at 50% life are defensive Top, which does 44% min with CC, defensive Zapdos, which does 45% min with Tbolt, swampert which does 42% min with EQ (the defensive one), Escavalier which does a lot with Megahorn, Porygon2 as you said, and any bulky water (though using 2 bulky water in the same team may be a far fecthed theory, i don't know).

 

[pokemonisfun]

I see Slowking a lot yet I do not understand why I see Slowking a lot. Kingdra is so powerful that it can pull up a Pokemon from RU that is otherwise 98% outclassed by Slowbro, one of the only decent UU bulky waters now; is this not a testament to its suspect status?

Ha ha, you laugh to yourself now, I am sure, calling me a fool for saying Slowking has little use in UU! After all, Slowking is basically Slowbro with more Special Defense and Dragon Tail. Let us look, just for a moment, what offensive Pokemon Slowbro can reliably counter. Victini, Darmanitan, Cobalion, Mienshao, Flygon, Crobat, Azumarill, Rhyperior and yes, you can even fuck around with Krookodile although that is not really recommended I am sure. None of these Pokemon have the slightest chance of getting past Slowbro except Thunder on the brave Victni and boosted Megahorns from Rhyperior. Slowking however can get knocked out from Fusion Bolt Victini. It loses to LO Darmanitan with a bit of residual damage and Earthquake and U-Turn. Flygon can slap on a Choice Band as can Crobat to obliterate Slowking. Rhyperior needs only to run the standard Megahorn. You no longer can fuck around Krookodile.

But of course you cannot, you cry aloud, Slowking has better Special Defense so it can better deal with special attackers! You would of course be, incorrect. Water/Psychic is an unfortunate typing for a special defender making you weak to various Thunderbolts, Bug Buzzes, Shadow Balls, Dark Pulses, Seed Flares and Giga Drains. That can effectively be translated to Raikou, Rotom-H, Nidoking, Porygon-2, Porygon-Z, Yanmega, Mismagius, Chandelure, Zoroark, Houndoom, Shaymin, and Roserade. You may have noticed I just copied the list of every single special attacker in UU. If you did not, I am sure you have noticed now.

Slowking, the specially defensive Pokemon that cannot beat any UU special attackers, except of course Kingdra is being seriously discussed as a great team mate solely because Kingdra exists. Isn't it obvious Kingdra is suspect?

 

[Espo]

I see Slowking a lot yet I do not understand why I see Slowking a lot. Kingdra is so powerful that it can pull up a Pokemon from RU that is otherwise 98% outclassed by Slowbro, one of the only decent UU bulky waters now; is this not a testament to its suspect status?

Ha ha, you laugh to yourself now, I am sure, calling me a fool for saying Slowking has little use in UU! After all, Slowking is basically Slowbro with more Special Defense and Dragon Tail. Let us look, just for a moment, what offensive Pokemon Slowbro can reliably counter. Victini, Darmanitan, Cobalion, Mienshao, Flygon, Crobat, Azumarill, Rhyperior and yes, you can even fuck around with Krookodile although that is not really recommended I am sure. None of these Pokemon have the slightest chance of getting past Slowbro except Thunder on the brave Victni and boosted Megahorns from Rhyperior. Slowking however can get knocked out from Fusion Bolt Victini. It loses to LO Darmanitan with a bit of residual damage and Earthquake and U-Turn. Flygon can slap on a Choice Band as can Crobat to obliterate Slowking. Rhyperior needs only to run the standard Megahorn. You no longer can fuck around Krookodile.

But of course you cannot, you cry aloud, Slowking has better Special Defense so it can better deal with special attackers! You would of course be, incorrect. Water/Psychic is an unfortunate typing for a special defender making you weak to various Thunderbolts, Bug Buzzes, Shadow Balls, Dark Pulses, Seed Flares and Giga Drains. That can effectively be translated to Raikou, Rotom-H, Nidoking, Porygon-2, Porygon-Z, Yanmega, Mismagius, Chandelure, Zoroark, Houndoom, Shaymin, and Roserade. You may have noticed I just copied the list of every single special attacker in UU. If you did not, I am sure you have noticed now.

Slowking, the specially defensive Pokemon that cannot beat any UU special attackers, except of course Kingdra is being seriously discussed as a great team mate solely because Kingdra exists. Isn't it obvious Kingdra is suspect?

I agree with this post about Slowking not walling like any special attackers. But, Slowking isnt really meant to wall, he is meant to be a defensive pivot.

 

[Forsety]

Banning Kingdra would simply be "banning the next best thing."

This honestly sums up my thoughts on Kingdra, whilst he isn't entirely innocent he is third at best.

There are far higher suspects in need of severe discussion which cropped up over the month. The No.1 of which is Raikou ever since the BW2 shift. CMRaikou and SubCM has been completely fucking over most of the tier and running absolutely rampant. It's effect is completely devastating with you having to go out of your way to try slow it down. It's 115 speed base already puts it on the top echelon of UU's speed tiers and to top it off it's bulk and power is enough that it simply brute forces through UU and renders most things ineffective.

It feels like you are forced to run a specific counter for him otherwise you are pre-determined to lose as most having a sub renders most checks ineffective. Counters are easily remedied by making every team you build hate the hell out of Swampert and Snorlax. Seriously for those who care Raikou needs to be a central topic of discussion because whatever it is in the new environment CM Raikou has suddenly shot up in effectiveness. The last time something has made me feel this helpless and restricted with team building was early UU Kyurem or 4th Gen OU Garchomp which rings alarm bells for me.


Secondly he is not the only thing I'm of opinion is playing with UU rather than in UU right now. It's not the first time I've brought it up but I feel Chandelure's presence has become more pronounced. This thing is a free kill as easily as they come as long you're not half asleep. My main qualm is with Specslure having the ability to single handedly checkmate you and force a kill. Pursuit trapping is unreliable as staying in it can easily survive a Pursuit with over half his health intact as well so it can often come back to haunt you.

Most bulky waters are utterly unreliable as he doesn't even need to risk major prediction 2 hitting by Shadowball. Snorlax is shaky at best threatened with a 2HKO by HP Fighting and threatened with death by double Fire Blast if his HP is less than 70%. Normally being Choiced should be a huge disadvantage but for some reason it's offensive typing just makes it too easy to work around.

Give a serious suspect discussion on Chand and Raikou because I fail to understand myself what changed to make these two so empowered all of a sudden since I've dealt with them thousands of times in previous rounds but never had as much issues as now. Of course these two pack numerous other potent sets but ones outlined are what stick out most to me everytime.

 

[Nas]

Posting to agree with Forsety about Chandelure. The Choice Specs set can 2HKO every pokemon in the tier except 252/252+ Snorlax, if that deosn't cry "suspect" then I don't know what does. Another thing is that minimal prediction is required on the Chandeure user's part to ensure at least one kill every time it comes in. The 3 most used bulky waters (Blastoise, Swampert, Slowbro) are all 2HKOed by Fire Blast after SR, and they're all outsped by Chandelure as well. Porygon2 and Snorlax are regarded as the most reliable Chandelure checks, and that in itself is laughable because Porygon2 is only a check if the Chandelure user is using Flash Fire and doesn't carry HP Fighting. Snorlax, on the other hand, is bulky enough to survive 2 consecutive HP Fighting's with maximum SpD investment, but the only set that runs that spread lacks any moves that can harm Chandelure. Frail offensive teams that rely on type synergy really don't have a chance against Chandelure since it cuts through resistances like butter and has multiple opportunities to come in on the likes of Roserade, Heracross, and choiced Fire types.

Unlike Raikou and Kingdra, Chandelure doesn't require any setup to become an immediate threat, and knowing what set its running doesn't necessarily help you defeat it.

 

[SJCrew]

I'm not buying Chandelure at all. It's too slow, has too many weaknesses, and is hard to switch into anything. I used to panic at the sight of that thing when I wasn't carrying Snorlax until I figured out that half-decent offensive teams just run right over it. On top of the fact that it does have viable multipurpose counters, the Pursuit weakness is rather brainless to take advantage of in conjunction with Stealth Rock. There is absolutely no risk to using CB Weavile, Snorlax, or Houndoom to take it out after a kill.

 

[destinyunknown]

Posting to agree with Forsety about Chandelure. The Choice Specs set can 2HKO every pokemon in the tier except 252/252+ Snorlax, if that deosn't cry "suspect" then I don't know what does.

Since when is that a reason to directly suspect a pokemon? Off the top of my head, CB Rhyperior and CB Rampardos can do the same. Is that reason enough to suspect them? Of course, no, because they are slow, and not especially easy to switch in (Rhyperior is actually easier to switch in than Chandelure, but there are still a lot of pokemon that are faster and can KO due to its common weaknesses). It applies the same for Chandelure, which has bad HP, only passable defenses (greatly hindered by that HP), is weak to Stealth Rock, and it's weak to a lot of common attacking types, while it doesn't have that many useful resistances to patch up for its defensive stats.

Another thing is that minimal prediction is required on the Chandeure user's part to ensure at least one kill every time it comes in. The 3 most used bulky waters (Blastoise, Swampert, Slowbro) are all 2HKOed by Fire Blast after SR, and they're all outsped by Chandelure as well. Porygon2 and Snorlax are regarded as the most reliable Chandelure checks, and that in itself is laughable because Porygon2 is only a check if the Chandelure user is using Flash Fire and doesn't carry HP Fighting. Snorlax, on the other hand, is bulky enough to survive 2 consecutive HP Fighting's with maximum SpD investment, but the only set that runs that spread lacks any moves that can harm Chandelure. Frail offensive teams that rely on type synergy really don't have a chance against Chandelure since it cuts through resistances like butter and has multiple opportunities to come in on the likes of Roserade, Heracross, and choiced Fire types.

While Chandelure is very effective against Balanced or Stall teams because they give it more chances to switch in, those kind of teams usually have pokemon like Porygon2, Snorlax or [introduce bulky water] that can be used to play around Chandelure. The argument about ''offensive teams don't have a switch in for Specs Chandelure'' while true, isn't taking into account the fact that Chandelure has a lot of problems switching into offensive pokemon, as even most neutral hits 2HKO Chandelure, and Chandelure is slower than the majority of UU pokemon used on ''frail teams based on synergy''. Chandelure can only switch (as you said) on Choiced Fire and Fighting attacks (there aren't Poison, Grass or Ice choiced attacks on the tier really, and Bug is mostly just U-turn), but if you're spamming those types of attacks with Chandelure around, it's your fault.

Unlike Raikou and Kingdra, Chandelure doesn't require any setup to become an immediate threat, and knowing what set its running doesn't necessarily help you defeat it.

The difference here is that Raikou is extremely fast and has the ability to sweep teams (something Specs Chandelure can't due to it's low speed) and Kingdra is a lot easier to switch in due to it's good bulk, lack of weakness and x4 resistances to Fire and Water, and (again) can sweep teams with Rain Dance or Dragon Dance, instead of just being able to KO pokemon with powerful attacks. Kingdra can also run a Choice Specs sets that has the potential of OHKO/2HKOing all pokemon in the tier, even defensive ones.

 

[Machi]

I'm not buying Chandelure at all. It's too slow, has too many weaknesses, and is hard to switch into anything. I used to panic at the sight of that thing when I wasn't carrying Snorlax until I figured out that half-decent offensive teams just run right over it. On top of the fact that it does have viable multipurpose counters, the Pursuit weakness is rather brainless to take advantage of in conjunction with Stealth Rock. There is absolutely no risk to using CB Weavile, Snorlax, or Houndoom to take it out after a kill.

I'm not too sure about the whole too slow and too many weaknesses. I find that Chandelure certainly has enough speed to outspeed bulky mons that generally don't invest in speed and are basically 2 OHKO (or OHKO with good hazard support) fodder for Lure are Swampert and Empoleon are somethings that come to mind but generally bulky offense (which can't really handle his SpA STABS that well). Reason I'd be worried about these bulky mons or walls is that more often than not they tend to be defensive pivots or important for teams that more often than not you'd rather not sack them or have them heavily injured. Which in turn tends to attract the faster frailer mons that end up getting sacked instead for what you see as a quick pursuit kill.

Problem with pursuit kills however is that I don't find it reliable at all since it is highly reliant on SR being on the field so that Chandelure does not come in at full HP, and subsequently survive pursuit if it opts to stay in. This also tends to apply to Scald BTW as Lure is quite capable of surviving a scald. That I'd be on a mad scramble to put up SR ASAP just so that I can immediately hinder Chandelure's switch in. However I find this in certain cases, generally against good players, that it is easier said than done to lay your SR past the first few turns where you really want to hurt Lure ASAP to discourage his switch in (which BTW Lure easily tends to threaten these common SR setters).

True that Lure has a lot of weaknesses but he certainly comes with some three nifty immunities as well. Immunity to fire is a huge asset, especially in this metagame where its suicide to not have something to handle fire types (and with common WoW status too), and increasingly fighting (with choiced Heracross running rampant) and normal (free switch ins usually against common rapid spinners or Seismic Toss all of which Lure outspeeds). These three alone make switching Chandelure in a much easier task. Once he's in it becomes more often than not a gamble for the opponent to switch in the check and risk getting predicted or attempt to kill Chandelure while risking themselves to getting killed (if Lure nabbed a flash fire boost oh boy generally prepare something to be sacked if you've already lost your flash fire user, which ironically tends to be Lure itself even then it eases prediction big time since favors are on your end that you're taking down a mon) - which is a far bigger disadvantage due to the utility they tend to bring. Chandelure may have a crucial weaknesses but the things that carry these weaknesses are heavily at risk with being out-predicted that I don't find these weaknesses to be all that deterring in the use of Lure since his immunities tend to outweigh that in team building. Especially since once he's in chances are you're going to lose something or have something heavily injured, and those heavily injured are as noted earlier usually key pivots.

 

[ss234]

Chandelure is really overrated IMO. Sure, it has a lot of power, but Snorlax easily takes it on. And whenever I use one it always fails quite miserably. Those resistances count for nothing when he has such low defence stats. I know not accounting for it when teambuilding is stupid, but running a Snorlax or Porygon2 is generally a good idea anyway.

Raikou and Kingdra are other matters. Both have the bulk to take a hit and hit back harder, and set-up to terrifying levels. I'm not sure if they are suspect though-just big threats in general-since Snorlax and Rhyperior aren't exactly uncommon, and just hitting Kingdra hard with neutral moves seems to work for me.

 

[Machi]

Chandelure is really overrated IMO. Sure, it has a lot of power, but Snorlax easily takes it on. And whenever I use one it always fails quite miserably. Those resistances count for nothing when he has such low defence stats. I know not accounting for it when teambuilding is stupid, but running a Snorlax or Porygon2 is generally a good idea anyway.

Raikou and Kingdra are other matters. Both have the bulk to take a hit and hit back harder, and set-up to terrifying levels. I'm not sure if they are suspect though-just big threats in general-since Snorlax and Rhyperior aren't exactly uncommon, and just hitting Kingdra hard with neutral moves seems to work for me.

Its immunities we're talking about not resistances... And the main point of those immunities is the ease at which it allows Chandelure to come in generally threaten something, forcing a switch or badly damaging something. Problem with Lax as I deal with it using Lure is that a well predicted Hidden Power Fighting or a Flash Fire Boosted Fire Blast easily leaves quite a dent on Lax and if he's taken prior damage or passive damage from hazards Lure can easily stay in for the kill. This is a big problem given that Snorlax's role will lead him to tanking several hits so that he does have difficulty coming in healthy to tank Chandelure. Moreover, with the threat of fighting types much more common now he doesn't have much of a chance to recover off rest since he's very easily threatened out. Its for that reason I tend to prefer trace Porygon2 over Lax since it at least doesn't have to worry about a flash fire boosted fire blast too bad its still going to have some difficulty finding time to recover.

Also would like to add Chandelure may not have the most stellar defenses but Lure is certainly no glass canon and can generally survive a pursuit (if it opts to stay in) or a scald (common attacks aimed against it) assuming no SR damage has been taken, hence it becomes a mad dash to put those stones up ASAP.

 

[Frozen Fate]

Chandelure has great immunities to come in on, Fighting types like Heracross and MienShao are running around UU all the time right now and Fire-types are pretty damn popular. Also with correct prediction (HP Fighting) or a Flash Fire boost it can force it's way past UU's best special wall (Snorlax).

However I don't think it should be banned by any means. 80 Speed isn't exactly fast and there's a tonne of things that can outspeed and force it out or KO if it stays in. Being SR weak means the player carrying Chandelure wants to keep it in as long as possible. Any well-built offensive team should handle Chandelure reasonably well, it's one of the biggest threats in UU but it can't sweep teams like Raikou or Kingdra can which is why I feel if anything is suspect it's those two.

Just my two cents.

 

[Machi]

Chandelure has great immunities to come in on, Fighting types like Heracross and MienShao are running around UU all the time right now and Fire-types are pretty damn popular. Also with correct prediction (HP Fighting) or a Flash Fire boost it can force it's way past UU's best special wall (Snorlax).

However I don't think it should be banned by any means. 80 Speed isn't exactly fast and there's a tonne of things that can outspeed and force it out or KO if it stays in. Being SR weak means the player carrying Chandelure wants to keep it in as long as possible. Any well-built offensive team should handle Chandelure reasonably well, it's one of the biggest threats in UU but it can't sweep teams like Raikou or Kingdra can which is why I feel if anything is suspect it's those two.

Just my two cents.

Neither Forsety, RT., or I have ever claimed it as being capable of sweeping but rather the ease at which it leads to netting a kill or two without necessarily needing to set up (its an immediate threat by its SpA and STABS alone) is why its suggested as suspect. It has such an ease at entering but its checks certainly do not have that luxury due to the coverage move easily carried by Specs Lure, and also the things it switches into are by no means safe either.

 

[Mew]

I find both Chandelure and Kingdra prominent special threats in the current metagame, but raikou is definitely the biggest one. Kingdra doesn't have a lot of counters, but it does have some good checks. Raikou on the other hand can even get past Porygon-2 and Snorlax if played well.

Chandelure just has too many weakness (including weakness to SR as well as being vulnerable to all forms of entry hazards). Sure you can use a rapid spinner, but then the team loses either offense or you have to build the team around chandy and the spinner. Other Flash Fire Pokemon or Normal-type Pokemon can predict to switch in on their respective immunities to force Chandelure out and have a set-up turn or kill the switch-in. I find Chandelure just too easy to play around.

My thoughts on Kingdra

I can't deny the strength of Kingdra, but it's very dependent to Rain Dance (which is imo its most effective set). That only lasts 5 turns usually, because Damp Rock on Kingdra is just meh on it. It is also easily revenged by priority as well as Flygon. I also find Slowbro quite effective to stop it in combination with Bronzong. Slowbro can switch into Hydro Pump and take around 55% damage, then switch out to Bronzong to take the Draco Meteor. SubDD set can be taunted by pretty much every faster taunter (Crobat, Sableye with priority taunt as well as WoW, Cobalion, Froslass, Azelf just to name a few).

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I see Slowking a lot yet I do not understand why I see Slowking a lot. Kingdra is so powerful that it can pull up a Pokemon from RU that is otherwise 98% outclassed by Slowbro, one of the only decent UU bulky waters now; is this not a testament to its suspect status?

If Slowking can be used to counter Kingdra when Slowbro cannot, then Slowking isn't outclassed by Slowbro. It's not 98% outclassed by Slowbro, either. In fact, the only reason why Slowbro gets all the usage and Slowking doesn't is because in previous metagames, Physical threats were more threatening than Special threats. If the metagame shifts so that Kingdra is more of a premier threat, then Slowking no longer becomes outclassed by Slowbro.

Just because a Pokemon affects the metagame doesn't mean it's broken. Look at Skarmory in ADV. Magneton was only OU because Skarmory was, does that make Skarmory broken? Look at Tyranitar in OU now. Dugtrio's only OU because of Tyranitar, does that make Tyranitar broken? Banning Kingdra is just banning the "next good thing", and Kingdra has plenty of its own problems.

Dragon Dance Kingdra is really, really weak, even with DD. It can barely 2KO Slowbro after two Dragon Dances for example. Choice Specs Kingdra isn't very fast. In fact, Kingdra isn't even the best sweeper/attacker in UU, Raikou is. Zapdos, in my opinion, is also better than Kingdra but that's an argument for another time. Really, Kingdra just isn't very broken at all. It's weak to status unless it's running ChestoRest or Substitute, but its Substitutes are so weak that anything besides Scald and Fire attacks will break it no problem.

In Rain, Kingdra's more problematic but still manageable. Snorlax does an excellent job, and so does Togekiss if it's running Thunder Wave. Umbreon can probably take a few hits and beat Kingdra 1v1. And don't forget Flygon who just manhandles the Dragon Dance set as long as Kingdra doesn't have 2 DDs or is Outraging...

 

[/B/utterfree]

If Slowking can be used to counter Kingdra when Slowbro cannot, then Slowking isn't outclassed by Slowbro. It's not 98% outclassed by Slowbro, either. In fact, the only reason why Slowbro gets all the usage and Slowking doesn't is because in previous metagames, Physical threats were more threatening than Special threats. If the metagame shifts so that Kingdra is more of a premier threat, then Slowking no longer becomes outclassed by Slowbro.

This reasoning makes sense.

Just because a Pokemon affects the metagame doesn't mean it's broken. Look at Skarmory in ADV. Magneton was only OU because Skarmory was, does that make Skarmory broken? Look at Tyranitar in OU now. Dugtrio's only OU because of Tyranitar, does that make Tyranitar broken? Banning Kingdra is just banning the "next good thing", and Kingdra has plenty of its own problems.

Even if a Pokemon was only in OU as a counterpick Pokemon, it would have to hold its place in the tier by being more useful than just a counterpick for one Pokemon. Weren't there other Steel-types in OU that warranted Magneton's use in ADV?

Dugtrio's not in OU exclusively because of Tyranitar. I can probably wager it traps and kills a lot of threats on its own. Its niche has been established thanks to its ability, Arena Trap. Dugtrio is the only fully-evolved Pokemon with Arena Trap, and bar the occasional Flying-type or Levitator, Dugtrio does a good job of trapping and killing (it's immune to Volt Switch). Not just Tyranitar, but other Pokes as well.

Dragon Dance Kingdra is really, really weak, even with DD. It can barely 2KO Slowbro after two Dragon Dances for example. Choice Specs Kingdra isn't very fast. In fact, Kingdra isn't even the best sweeper/attacker in UU, Raikou is.

I do agree with you here. I'd rather see Raikou in BL before Kingdra. Hell, I'd rather see Roserade in BL before either Raikou or Kingdra. Without Roserade's effective aid, Kingdra wouldn't be able to get past most Bulky Waters without running Hidden Power Grass/Hidden Power Electric. Not to mention that Kingdra still needs Hidden Power Electric anyway to threaten Empoleon.

Zapdos, in my opinion, is also better than Kingdra but that's an argument for another time.

I agree with you that Zapdos is better than Kingdra as well. I actually look forward to hearing your reasoning behind that argument. :)

Really, Kingdra just isn't very broken at all. It's weak to status unless it's running ChestoRest or Substitute, but its Substitutes are so weak that anything besides Scald and Fire attacks will break it no problem.

I forgot to mention why Roserade was so potent on my Kingdra and Bisharp-dependent team. Toxic Spikes essentially poisoned a lot of Pokes that people were running. Including other Kingdra, who were effectively neutered by the poison status!

In Rain, Kingdra's more problematic but still manageable.

This is indeed true. Rain Dance Kingdra's the only set I've run. I did try to run the other sets, but found them inadequate for what was necessary for the team, as well as just inadequate in general.

Snorlax does an excellent job, and so does Togekiss if it's running Thunder Wave. Umbreon can probably take a few hits and beat Kingdra 1v1. And don't forget Flygon who just manhandles the Dragon Dance set as long as Kingdra doesn't have 2 DDs or is Outraging...

You forgot to mention Empoleon walling most Kingdra, as I forget how many sets rely on Hidden Power Electric (if any). I know my set runs Hidden Power Electric, but...

My arguments are up above, in bold. I do agree with Detroit that Kingdra's not quite broken enough to be Suspect Tested.

 

[Espo]

If Slowking can be used to counter Kingdra when Slowbro cannot, then Slowking isn't outclassed by Slowbro. It's not 98% outclassed by Slowbro, either. In fact, the only reason why Slowbro gets all the usage and Slowking doesn't is because in previous metagames, Physical threats were more threatening than Special threats. If the metagame shifts so that Kingdra is more of a premier threat, then Slowking no longer becomes outclassed by Slowbro.

Just because a Pokemon affects the metagame doesn't mean it's broken. Look at Skarmory in ADV. Magneton was only OU because Skarmory was, does that make Skarmory broken? Look at Tyranitar in OU now. Dugtrio's only OU because of Tyranitar, does that make Tyranitar broken? Banning Kingdra is just banning the "next good thing", and Kingdra has plenty of its own problems.

Dragon Dance Kingdra is really, really weak, even with DD. It can barely 2KO Slowbro after two Dragon Dances for example. Choice Specs Kingdra isn't very fast. In fact, Kingdra isn't even the best sweeper/attacker in UU, Raikou is. Zapdos, in my opinion, is also better than Kingdra but that's an argument for another time. Really, Kingdra just isn't very broken at all. It's weak to status unless it's running ChestoRest or Substitute, but its Substitutes are so weak that anything besides Scald and Fire attacks will break it no problem.

In Rain, Kingdra's more problematic but still manageable. Snorlax does an excellent job, and so does Togekiss if it's running Thunder Wave. Umbreon can probably take a few hits and beat Kingdra 1v1. And don't forget Flygon who just manhandles the Dragon Dance set as long as Kingdra doesn't have 2 DDs or is Outraging...

Okay, I highly disagree with this post.

Truthfully, Slowking is mostly outclassed by(bar Nasty Plot) Slowbro because Slowking will be usually take hit from the Physical side because Slowking is weak to many special attackers stabs or moves they carry. All the UU analysis talks about is how Slowking is the Best Kingdra counter.

Every Pokemon that has usage will affect that tier. The arguement saying Magneton was only Used to trap Skarmory is wrong as there was more steel types than that. Same for dugtrio because it traps all grounded Pokemon so that arguement is invalid.

Saying DD Kingdra is weak because it can barely 2KO Slowbro after 2 DDs isn't a great arguement as Kingdra can just set up on Slowbro unless it is a specs Slowbro. I can't argue with the others as they are opinions, but Kingdra could be considered a better sweeper because it can raise its attack and speed. Saying Kindra is really weak to status is silly because every Pokemon is weak to status bar Guts and Marvel Scale. The Specs is good because of the near unresisted stab moves.

Saying Snorlax does an excellent job against Rain Kingra is invalid because a Modest Life Orb Hydro Pump does 43%-51% on 252/252+ Sp.def Snorlax. Snorlax can KO Kingdra unless it is a Choice Band return, but I'm that case it will take much more from that Hydro Pump. Even the most specially defensive Togekiss is easily KOed from that Hydro Pump after SR. Umbreon is 2Ko from that Hydro Pump and can't do anything back.

Also changing that guys Post to say "Guy Who Wants To Suspect Kingdra" is rather immature.