np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town

[XenoIncognito]

Sash Cloyster has actually been pretty helpful as a spinner; most people don't expect it, and I've been running it with Explosion. In one battle I got three kills just because the opponent didn't know how to handle it.

I would say Froslass and Raikou are still pretty broken; Froslass especially, netting at least one or two spikes almost every time.

 

[Heysup]

edit: haven't played a single game yet but does anyone think part of the reason why rhyperior fits into the metagame is that it combines aspects of regirock / registeel (normal / fly resist) with aspects of donphan? just something i thought of that was kind of interesting (i.e. how well would rhyperior have worked in a pre-donphan metagame)

To be honest Rhyperior = Regirock on Crack. The only reason it "fits" imo is because Gallade and Raikou balance it out. If/Once they get banned, I have a feeling it will become quite obviously to hard to handle.

Lead Cloyster is awesome on a side note.

And I still haven't heard any convincing arguments for Raikou and Gallade to remain UU to counter the arguments that makes them BL. I don't think I have for Froslass either, but that argument is never going to end.

 

[itsbigfoot]

Raikou and Gallade balance him out? how? they don't OHKO him, they can't switch in safely and they're slower than the sweeper variant. Once he's in it isn't those two that scare him out. Other things in UU check him (mostly water types and grass types), but Raikou and Gallade are just two pokemon he doesn't set up on

 

[THB]

Can someone reiterate why Froslass is too good for UU? She's good not broken, based on my experience both using and playing against Froslass.

 

[Mattman324]

Raikou and Gallade balance him out? how? they don't OHKO him, they can't switch in safely and they're slower than the sweeper variant. Once he's in it isn't those two that scare him out. Other things in UU check him (mostly water types and grass types), but Raikou and Gallade are just two pokemon he doesn't set up on

If Scizor can do a good ammount of damage to Rhypereor with STAB Technician (basically a second STAB) Bullet Punch, then a 2+, STAB, Close Combat from Gallade should OKAO. And every Raikou carries HP Ice or Grass, which do a hefty ammount of damage. (I really hope the HP Fire fad doesn't come back, my wall for Raikou is Regice.

 

[Heysup]

Raikou and Gallade balance him out? how? they don't OHKO him, they can't switch in safely and they're slower than the sweeper variant. Once he's in it isn't those two that scare him out. Other things in UU check him (mostly water types and grass types), but Raikou and Gallade are just two pokemon he doesn't set up on

+1 Raikou vs Max / Min Rhyperior:

493 Atk vs 156 Def & 434 HP (70 Base Power): 474 - 561 (109.22% - 129.26%) Clean OHKO

+2 Life Orb Gallade vs Max / Min Rhyperior:

766 Atk vs 296 Def & 434 HP (120 Base Power): 649 - 765 (149.54% - 176.27%) Clean OHKO

Rhyperior is just another Pokemon that they can destroy in a sweep to them. Plus if Reflect is up, or Rhyperior is burned, they won't have an issue boosting once.

Also, consider the fact that you can get Free Spikes via Froslass (1-2 Layers seems fair):

Unboosted Life Orb Close Combat vs Rhyperior:

383 Atk vs 296 Def & 434 HP (120 Base Power): 325 - 384 (74.88% - 88.48%) 81.18% average + 12.5% due to spikes + 6.25% due to SR = basically 100% (like 99.9%).

Unboosted Life Orb Hidden Power Grass vs Rhyperior:

329 Atk vs 156 Def & 434 HP (70 Base Power): 414 - 489 (95.39% - 112.67%) Clean OHKO with just SR...

329 Atk vs 156 Def & 434 HP (70 Base Power): 321 - 378 (73.96% - 87.10%) 2 layers of spikes = OHKO. Or just after Substitute.

The main point is, they both OHKO Rhyperior with just one boost, and OHKO without it.

Milotic is another huge factor that I forgot to mention. So is Venusaur.

Can someone reiterate why Froslass is too good for UU? She's good not broken, based on my experience both using and playing against Froslass.

Basically Automatic spikes unless you use a specialized lead against it which aren't bad, but lets face it they are pretty shitty compared to what you want to use. Even if you use a specialized lead, you only have 50% chance of stopping Froslass at all. Probably less....

Automatic Spikes + Spin Blocking them + taking out any opposing Pokemon with it = Support characteristic of uber.

 

[MapleSandwich]

Armaldo shuts down lead Alakazam, Ambipom, and Froslass pretty badly, and that's just in my experience, plus it can get up rocks of its own AND spin. I don't find that specialized, nor does the fact that Froslass can get up one layer of Spikes (IF it doesn't taunt) with a Sash make it BL, as literally anything can do that. Sash Cloyster isn't broken, but that manages to do way more damage and probably get up spikes just as well. And it's not hard to spin-block in UU considering Dusclops and Mismagius can just come in and burn you.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Basically Automatic spikes unless you use a specialized lead against it which aren't bad, but lets face it they are pretty shitty compared to what you want to use. Even if you use a specialized lead, you only have 50% chance of stopping Froslass at all. Probably less...

A lead that you want to use is something that can assert an early-game advantage for your team as often as possible given the current metagame climate. A lead that can work well in general and also beat Froslass fits this definition, and is therefore exactly the kind of lead that I want to be using. Just because the majority of these "specialized" leads revolve around one of two principles (either powerful attack + priority + possible spin, or Pursuit with >110 base speed, with possibly Taunt as well), this doesn't mean that using them is making a huge sacrifice that gimps your team if said threats don't appear. They all have wider use.

You have also failed to explain why 1-2 layers of 'free' Spikes is broken enough to give 5 Pokemon an immediate and unfair advantage against 6 Pokemon.

Also, please explain your 50% or less remark, because I'm not getting it at all.

 

[Heysup]

A lead that you want to use is something that can assert an early-game advantage for your team as often as possible given the current metagame climate. A lead that can work well in general and also beat Froslass fits this definition, and is therefore exactly the kind of lead that I want to be using. Just because the majority of these "specialized" leads revolve around one of two principles (either powerful attack + priority + possible spin, or Pursuit with >110 base speed, with possibly Taunt as well), this doesn't mean that using them is making a huge sacrifice that gimps your team if said threats don't appear. They all have wider use.

The point is, these leads aren't anywhere as good as the leads without having to specialize for Froslass (for example, Regirock, Uxie, Mesprit, etc). Spiritomb (with the offensive EVs needed to be an effective lead) will do very little for you late game with its below average defenses (due to lack of investment) compared to things like Regirock which is a great tank, or Uxie and Mesprit who can set up Screens.

You have also failed to explain why 1-2 layers of 'free' Spikes is broken enough to give 5 Pokemon an immediate and unfair advantage against 6 Pokemon.

Because of Pokemon like Raikou and Gallade (Major examples that I just happened to do calcs for including Spikes a couple posts above, there are many many more as I'm sure you know) who can just plow through teams with Spikes Support. Even non-set up Pokemon like Swellow, and Choice Scarfers can sweep easily with Spikes on the feild.

Also, it should, unless misplayed, be 1 layer of spikes and 5-5, or 2 layers of spikes at 6-5. I'd even say it's a completely valid plan to let Froslass faint to get two Spikes up against leads like Spiritomb, because it's basically set up bait or a free attack from something like Choice Band Arcanine, Blaziken, or Sub+Stat up X Pokemon.

Also, please explain your 50% or less remark, because I'm not getting it at all.

Well Froslass can Destiny Bond. So naturally, any anti-Froslass Pokemon will likely not carry Stealth Rock or anything of the sort, so Destiny Bonding is pretty safe. This makes it 5-5 at the least. Of course Froslass could also get away with getting spikes up because of predictions involved. So 50% chance to get spikes up against Anti-Froslass leads (depending on the lead), but it can also just make the match 5-5 via destiny bond. Ambipom with Taunt could cause problems though.

 

[umbarsc]

Kabutops Rock Slides, then Aqua Jets. Can you tell me how Froslass can do more than set up one layer of Spikes in that situation? The best Froslass can do is Destiny Bond, then set up one layer of Spikes while Kabutops sets up Stealth Rock. (well actually, the best thing Froslass can do is switch out).

Ambipom Pursuits turn one, then either Taunts or Pursuits again. How does Spiking Froslass deal with that? If it does anything other than Destiny Bond turn 1, Ambipom Pursuits it twice for the kill, allowing either just one layer of Spikes up or having Ambipom take a hit it can live through. If it Destiny Bonds, Ambipom Taunts it, which prevents any Spikes from coming up and lets Ambipom Pursuit it again the next turn.

I don't know what lead Spiritomb generally runs, but max Atk Spiritomb 2HKOs it with both Pursuit and Shadow Sneak. Spiritomb Shadow Sneaks first turn. If Froslass does anything other than Destiny Bond, Spiritomb can Shadow Sneak it again for the kill. If Froslass Destiny Bonds first turn, then Spiritomb can Pursuit it next turn for the kill and Froslass will have either taken out Spiritomb or set up 1 Spikes leaving Spiritomb unharmed.

Froslass does limit the lead selection a bit, but to be honest I like that. I hate when so many leads are viable that it's difficult to get consistent matchups.

 

[Boingo]

Froslass does limit the lead selection a bit, but to be honest I like that. I hate when so many leads are viable that it's difficult to get consistent matchups.

Well, I believe (and hope) that you're alone with that viewpoint. When Every - otherwise viable - lead you consider for your team just HAS to be able to deal with one certain Pokémon, to me it feels like Deoxys-S in OU all over again.

I agree that Froslass makes the choice of lead Pokémon too much of a hassle. And imho one guaranteed layer of spikes means a lot when most players don't even bother with Rapid Spinning because it's most likely going to be prevented and exploited by the omnipresent ghosts of UU anyway.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

The point is, these leads aren't anywhere as good as the leads without having to specialize for Froslass (for example, Regirock, Uxie, Mesprit, etc). Spiritomb (with the offensive EVs needed to be an effective lead) will do very little for you late game with its below average defenses (due to lack of investment) compared to things like Regirock which is a great tank, or Uxie and Mesprit who can set up Screens.

Alakazam can set up Screens, as can Raikou, and both can stop Froslass from doing its job. Point being? There is nothing inherently superior to the other leads you have mentioned, and you don't seem to get that. Whether they were more effective or not before Froslass' re-inclusion is irrelevant, that is what happens when another Pokemon comes along with decent leading potential, all Pokemon are centralizing to a certain extent and all that jazz. Besides, it isn't like you can't use Regirock as a lead anymore; it can still fare well against Froslass leads depending on prediction which goes both ways. Froslass herself has to predict perfectly to successfully negotiate around SR, T-Wave and Rock Slide while doing its job, and there is nothing wrong with being rewarded for good prediction.

I am prepared to use any lead that does the job, not caring one bit for what people like you say. If they didn't do their job or were outclassed somehow, I simply wouldn't use them, and neither would anyone else. And with that, your argument that leads that can beat Froslass are somehow inferior steeps even further into irrelevance.

Because of Pokemon like Raikou and Gallade (Major examples that I just happened to do calcs for including Spikes a couple posts above, there are many many more as I'm sure you know) who can just plow through teams with Spikes Support. Even non-set up Pokemon like Swellow, and Choice Scarfers can sweep easily with Spikes on the feild.

No, Raikou and Gallade can't just automatically sweep teams with ease just because a couple of Spike layers are down, not in my experience anyway. Though you could prove me wrong by (ab)using a team with lead Froslass and several sweepers and sweeping almost every team you came across. If you did that, not only would I be very impressed, it might actually be enough to reconsider my stance on Froslass from a lead perspective.

Also, it should, unless misplayed, be 1 layer of spikes and 5-5, or 2 layers of spikes at 6-5. I'd even say it's a completely valid plan to let Froslass faint to get two Spikes up against leads like Spiritomb, because it's basically set up bait or a free attack from something like Choice Band Arcanine, Blaziken, or Sub+Stat up X Pokemon.

Froslass can only get one layer up against Spiritomb, but ignoring that for a second, you can only argue that sacrificing yourself for two layers of Spikes is broken if it means that your team can then easily beat the vast majority of teams because of that. See above paragraph.

Well Froslass can Destiny Bond. So naturally, any anti-Froslass Pokemon will likely not carry Stealth Rock or anything of the sort, so Destiny Bonding is pretty safe. This makes it 5-5 at the least. Of course Froslass could also get away with getting spikes up because of predictions involved. So 50% chance to get spikes up against Anti-Froslass leads (depending on the lead), but it can also just make the match 5-5 via destiny bond. Ambipom with Taunt could cause problems though.

Destiny Bond first turn is stupid, because Focus Sash saves you anyway. In fact there is no sillier option than that. Ambipom, for example, just Pursuits first turn, you Destiny Bond, then uses Return (EDIT: or Taunt if it has it as Umbarsc mentioned) until you stop using Destiny Bond, at which point the second Pursuit follows. You will NEVER get away with more than one layer of Spikes against a good Ambipom user with Pursuit, and doing even that costs you your life. The best you do against other anti-leads is get a layer up and survive at critical health, then predict the priority and switch out, hoping she can be of use later. Destiny Bond doesn't factor at all.

 

[Heysup]

Are you both trying to argue that Froslass doesn't have a 50-50 chance of hitting the opponent with Destiny Bond and KOing both of the leads? Cause that would be silly. It's all prediction, and neither Pokemon has any surefire way to beat Froslass without having the possibility of getting KOed by DBond.

As for the sweeping with Spikes team...I use one right now but with Cloyster instead of Froslass because it's tons more fun and I don't have to rely on speed ties to beat every other Froslass (which actually costs people the game, an Actually automatic 2 layers if the opponent switches in something faster, or 3 if it switches in something slower).

This argument is just getting repetitive, if there's no convincing you then fine.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Are you both trying to argue that Froslass doesn't have a 50-50 chance of hitting the opponent with Destiny Bond and KOing both of the leads? Cause that would be silly. It's all prediction, and neither Pokemon has any surefire way to beat Froslass without having the possibility of getting KOed by DBond.

Which Pokemon are you referring to here? If it's Ambipom, then you're definitely wrong as it clearly does have a surefire way of avoiding DBond, due to the fact that it is faster than Froslass. With Pokemon that have priority it is a similar thing as the priority move ignores the speed dfference and goes first anyway. This was all outlined above, how does it not make sense to you?

As for the sweeping with Spikes team...I use one right now but with Cloyster instead of Froslass because it's tons more fun and I don't have to rely on speed ties to beat every other Froslass (which actually costs people the game, an Actually automatic 2 layers if the opponent switches in something faster, or 3 if it switches in something slower).

But if you're managing to win easily with that team, then clearly Froslass is not fulfilling the Support Characteristic as you're not using it. Either Cloyster is broken (definitely not), Spikes is broken in general (hardly), or you're catching many people by surprise with an effective strategy (most likely, and one I can vouch for somewhat).

This argument is just getting repetitive, if there's no convincing you then fine.

I agree, but I have already told you what would convince me. Take the ladder by storm with a Froslass team that proves that the strategy is broken beyond doubt.

 

[Heysup]

Which Pokemon are you referring to here? If it's Ambipom, then you're definitely wrong as it clearly does have a surefire way of avoiding DBond, due to the fact that it is faster than Froslass. With Pokemon that have priority it is a similar thing as the priority move ignores the speed dfference and goes first anyway. This was all outlined above, how does it not make sense to you?

We are arguing different things, look:

vs any Pokemon faster than Froslass:

let this Pokemon be called Pokemon X
Assume 'attack x' 2HKOes Froslass

Turn 1:
Pokemon X uses Attack X
Froslass uses Destiny Bond

See? Pretty simple, now it's down to 50/50 whether it lets Froslass set up Spikes and switch out, or use Destiny Bond. Froslass is at a 50-50 chance to come out of this doing ok. If Attack X is Pursuit, then Froslass has problems, but I already addressed the fact that Ambipom beats Froslass.

But if you're managing to win easily with that team, then clearly Froslass is not fulfilling the Support Characteristic as you're not using it. Either Cloyster is broken (definitely not), Spikes is broken in general (hardly), or you're catching many people by surprise with an effective strategy (most likely, and one I can vouch for somewhat).

When I was using Froslass, either my Froslass was clearly fulfilling the Characteristic, or the opponent's was. That's the only reason I switched to Cloyster, because i didn't want to risk losing turn one because of Froslass' brokeness versus the average lead.

I agree, but I have already told you what would convince me. Take the ladder by storm with a Froslass team that proves that the strategy is broken beyond doubt.

It's called School :( I don't have time to 'take the ladder by storm'. Besides, Ladder doesn't really prove 'much' about one specific Pokemon.

 

[THB]

I agree that Froslass makes the choice of lead Pokémon too much of a hassle. And imho one guaranteed layer of spikes means a lot when most players don't even bother with Rapid Spinning because it's most likely going to be prevented and exploited by the omnipresent ghosts of UU anyway.

Whether it's OU, Uber, or UU, every tier has a set dominant leads that you should either use or prepare to counter. Before I make a new UU team, I'm not just thinking about countering Froslass(who isn't even the #1 lead). I'm considering mainly Ambipom(the actual #1), Uxie, and scarf Fire types in addition to Froslass.

As for UU Ghosts, they aren't absolute counters to Rapid Spinners. Frail ghosts like Missy and Rotom get 2OHKOed by Donphan's Assurance. Donphan can Assurance on the switch instead of the obvious Rapid Spin and force Missy/Rotom into either dying or switching out. If Missy/Rotom attempt WoW, they risk doing nothing 25% of the time. I've also used a Water Spout Blastoise to smack ghosts on the switch. Even a 252/116 Calm Spiritomb gets 2OHKOed by a healthy Blastoise with 252 SpA EVs.

If you have a Rapid Spinner that doesn't damage ghosts switching in, just pair it with a Pursuit user so you can trap ghosts the next turn. If you're scared of Spiritomb, then add a Blaziken, Arcanine, or Houndoom to counter.

Personally, I don't even worry this much about countering Spikes, as I can kill Froslass after 0-1 Spikes everytime.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Why in the world would you dbond turn 1? Pretty much either way it seems like you're just getting 1 layer of spikes down but by using dbond you give your opponent the option of sacrificing their lead to prevent you from getting spikes down. It doesn't seem like a very good trade on your part since the entire point of leading with froslass is to throw as many layers down as you can at the start of the match.

 

[FlareBlitz]

The thing about Froslass is that with good play it really can't lose.
I mean, if you're running something like DS Uxie, you lose to any Taunt lead. Ambipom loses to any lead that can survive its attacks and strike back, because it doesn't set anything up. Froslass just doesn't lose. If it thinks a lead is going to kill it first turn, it just needs to Dbond. If something is faster than it, again, Dbond and survive with Sash. Obviously, in order for Froslass to come out on top it needs to be handled with good prediction, but the whole point is that it CAN come out on top, where other leads don't have that option in a bad matchup.

To put it simply, Froslass loses nothing from almost all its bad matchups, since it can just suicide kill, while it gains a lot from its good matchups. That's what makes it BL material in my eyes.

 

[Heysup]

The thing about Froslass is that with good play it really can't lose.
I mean, if you're running something like DS Uxie, you lose to any Taunt lead. Ambipom loses to any lead that can survive its attacks and strike back, because it doesn't set anything up. Froslass just doesn't lose. If it thinks a lead is going to kill it first turn, it just needs to Dbond. If something is faster than it, again, Dbond and survive with Sash. Obviously, in order for Froslass to come out on top it needs to be handled with good prediction, but the whole point is that it CAN come out on top, where other leads don't have that option in a bad matchup.

To put it simply, Froslass loses nothing from almost all its bad matchups, since it can just suicide kill, while it gains a lot from its good matchups. That's what makes it BL material in my eyes.

That's essentially what I've been saying but explained slightly better. It's huge in a heavily offensive metagame to not 'lose' in the lead catagory. Froslass always does something.

 

[itsbigfoot]

If Scizor can do a good ammount of damage to Rhypereor with STAB Technician (basically a second STAB) Bullet Punch, then a 2+, STAB, Close Combat from Gallade should OKAO. And every Raikou carries HP Ice or Grass, which do a hefty ammount of damage. (I really hope the HP Fire fad doesn't come back, my wall for Raikou is Regice.

but if he comes in, SDs then attacks he's going to die before getting anything off. my point was that they can't come in on him to keep him in check, that's why I said they're just pokemon he can't set up on

+1 Raikou vs Max / Min Rhyperior:

493 Atk vs 156 Def & 434 HP (70 Base Power): 474 - 561 (109.22% - 129.26%) Clean OHKO

+2 Life Orb Gallade vs Max / Min Rhyperior:

766 Atk vs 296 Def & 434 HP (120 Base Power): 649 - 765 (149.54% - 176.27%) Clean OHKO

Rhyperior is just another Pokemon that they can destroy in a sweep to them. Plus if Reflect is up, or Rhyperior is burned, they won't have an issue boosting once.

again, these are both boosted, which is impossible if you're switching in to rhyperior or even if you both come in at the same time. Also, you're calcs don't account for Solid Rock, + 2 Gallade still kos but Raikou doesn't

Also, the reflect or burned argument is pretty dumb, since if raikou is frozen or even paralyzed it has no shot of beating rhyperior, same applies to Gallade.

Also, consider the fact that you can get Free Spikes via Froslass (1-2 Layers seems fair):

Unboosted Life Orb Close Combat vs Rhyperior:

383 Atk vs 296 Def & 434 HP (120 Base Power): 325 - 384 (74.88% - 88.48%) 81.18% average + 12.5% due to spikes + 6.25% due to SR = basically 100% (like 99.9%).

Unboosted Life Orb Hidden Power Grass vs Rhyperior:

329 Atk vs 156 Def & 434 HP (70 Base Power): 414 - 489 (95.39% - 112.67%) Clean OHKO with just SR...

329 Atk vs 156 Def & 434 HP (70 Base Power): 321 - 378 (73.96% - 87.10%) 2 layers of spikes = OHKO. Or just after Substitute.

The main point is, they both OHKO Rhyperior with just one boost, and OHKO without it.

Milotic is another huge factor that I forgot to mention. So is Venusaur.

Seeing as my lead prevents spikes and usually kos it (even though it was made BEFORE froslass came back, stop complaining that every lead that beats froslass is specialized) and I usually pack a spinner, the spikes are out. You also forgot to add in Solid Rock on these Calcs as well.

Gallade's LO CC on 434 296 Rhyperior: 68.43% - 80.88%

Standard (116 evs taken from the analysis) Raikou's HP Grass vs Rhyperior (Raikou never packs LO and rarely max SpA): 70.51% - 82.95%

Standard Raikou's HP Ice vs the same Rhyperior: 35.25% - 41.47%.

neither of them can come in on him, nor can they revenge kill the sweeper version. Venusaur and Milotic check him, which was my point, it's the other pokemon in UU, not those two, those two are just pokemon that he doesn't set up on.

Basically Automatic spikes unless you use a specialized lead against it which aren't bad, but lets face it they are pretty shitty compared to what you want to use. Even if you use a specialized lead, you only have 50% chance of stopping Froslass at all. Probably less....

Automatic Spikes + Spin Blocking them + taking out any opposing Pokemon with it = Support characteristic of uber.

Seeing as it doesn't get automatic spikes unless you insist on a bad lead (Yes, Froslass changed the Lead Tiers, any good new addition would do the same, if you still insist on using Uxie as your only lead, never adapting to froslass, it's going to set up on you all day. Also, stop talking down the leads that actually beat Froslass, Ambipom and Floatzel will win against 90% of Froslasses, the other 10% is a coin toss, and they don't set up anything, there are probably more leads that beat Froslass too, try inventing new things

By the way, Froslass is a terrible spin blocker if you use it as a lead, seeing as it's usually near death (if it survived) and has a SR weakness, it'd come in and die before the spin (one turn of spin blocking I guess... the turn it dies). If you want to use it as a non-lead spiker, maybe it can do it (I haven't seen it yet), even then it isn't immune to ground like the other spin blockers, so it has to guess right on donphan and claydol.

EDIT: also, since I seemed to miss a good amount of debate, here are a bunch of pokemon that you can make into leads that beat froslass, while not all of them would be viable, some of them are or will be due to the shifting metagame.

I'll start with the best options:

Faster Taunters: Ambipom, Floatzel, Alakazam, Persian, Electrode

Faster Pokemon (w/o taunt, so froslass gets one layer of spikes tops): Raikou, Sceptile, Dugtrio, Swellow, Purugly

Priority Taunters: Sharpedo, Qwilfish, Muk, Mismagius, Gallade, Gardevoir, Houndoom, Skuntank, Banette, Absol, Spiritomb, Umbreon, Toxicroak

Synchronise + Toxic Orb Leads: Espeon, Alakazam, Gardevoir

Priority Users: too many to name, even skipping fake out, vacuum wave, mach punch and quick attack (outside of scrappy kangaskhan)

Scarfed Sleep leads: Venusaur, Tangrowth, Jumpluff, Victrebel, Exegutor,
jumpluff can force a speed tie w/o scarf if need be

Scarfed Pokemon with base 50 Spe and a decent attack stat: A lot

are all these going to be viable leads? no, but you can definitely find some that are very viable. That's how metagames develop, Uxie, Mesprit and Regirock weren't made specifically to be good leads, they were good because they could set up and beat the other leads, which they don't do as well anymore, look through some other pokemon, they might be good in the new metagame, especially if they were weak to the leads that are losing out and strong against the newer leads

 

[A.P.]

This isn't about your lead, your team, this is about the metagame in general. Froslass is incredibly rare nowadays, everyone is using Ambipom. Honestly, I find Spiritomb, Cloyster, and Armaldo to be the best leads nowadays.

 

[itsbigfoot]

The thing about Froslass is that with good play it really can't lose.
I mean, if you're running something like DS Uxie, you lose to any Taunt lead. Ambipom loses to any lead that can survive its attacks and strike back, because it doesn't set anything up. Froslass just doesn't lose. If it thinks a lead is going to kill it first turn, it just needs to Dbond. If something is faster than it, again, Dbond and survive with Sash. Obviously, in order for Froslass to come out on top it needs to be handled with good prediction, but the whole point is that it CAN come out on top, where other leads don't have that option in a bad matchup.

To put it simply, Froslass loses nothing from almost all its bad matchups, since it can just suicide kill, while it gains a lot from its good matchups. That's what makes it BL material in my eyes.

Froslass loses to any faster taunt lead, as well as any priority user who knows not to kill it after a dbond.

Qwilfish has access to the same Taunt + Spikes (and toxic spikes) + dbond, does that make qwilfish BL too?

 

[THB]

Froslass just doesn't lose. If it thinks a lead is going to kill it first turn, it just needs to Dbond. If something is faster than it, again, Dbond and survive with Sash.

Froslass loses A LOT. Infact, it loses to the current #1 Ambipom who can either Taunt or Pursuit.

Destiny Bond turn 1 is not a great option. It leaves you 5-5, while you've lost your Spiker, and the opponent still has his potential SR and/or Spiker for the rest of the battle. This is another losing situation for Froslass.

I'm also not bending over backwards to beat Froslass. All of the following are common and easy ways for a leads to beat/kill Froslass after 0-1 spikes:

1) Ambipom
2) Uxie U-turn into whatever OHKOs Froslass
3) Scarfed leads
4) Any faster Taunt
5) SE attack + Priority

There is no need to worry about obscure counters like Rock Blast, although that works fine too for the reasons mentioned above.

 

[A.P.]

Froslass also has Ghost typing, giving it two valuable immunities, and a blazing 110 speed, outpacing most of the metagame.

Honestly, stop trying to pick out other people's arguments, and post your own.

 

[d2m]

Froslass also has Ghost typing, giving it two valuable immunities, and a blazing 110 speed, outpacing most of the metagame.

Honestly, stop trying to pick out other people's arguments, and post your own.

What is your point? The burden of proof lies on those who want to prove Froslass IS overpowered. Thus, the way we prove she's not is by arguing against the points they make to try to meet that burden. No ladder experience nor argument here has convinced me of anything near that.

That said, the three points in your post have been addressed so many times it isn't funny.