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That still doesn't make sleep luck based because you are only forced into those situations as a result of not being able to switch out of them.
It's an interesting thing to directly compare sleep and tag like that but I think there's more nuance to it than simply numbers. Sleep may be effective vs the full team but if it wasn't then unlimited sleep wouldn't be an issue because you would have at least one solid mon you could switch to to handle it. Shadow Tag doesn't always have as many targets but by outright removing the option to switch it doesn't need to. Basically, sleep does indirectly through its ridiculous effectiveness what Shadow Tag is designed to do. I still don't think that the fact Shadow Tag doesn't remove the choices from the rest of the game should be a reason to do nothing about the times where it does. Also, Shadow Tag does decide games quite often and if you lose a game as a result of the handful of turns where you couldn't do anything I would argue that it did make all those other choices you made moot. Hell, it's arguably even more frustrating to think that you could have played out a match perfectly fine but because they trapped the one key mon you lost the game anyways. (there isn't always a double switch involved, they can just come in on the RK so you can't argue the other guy was outplayed)
Not terribly relevant but I just want to point out you have a much smaller window than 20 turns to crit Goth in order to beat it. I don't remember the exact numbers but once you get like 3 CMs under your belt, you need to double crit Goth to hax past it which is pretty low odds. (or maybe I'm just lucky)
Having read through the many posts made by both sides regarding the ban of Mega Gengar (and also Shadow Tag in general), I would like to put forth an argument for not banning Mega Gengar.
Firstly, it has been brought up countless times about how the odds of Mega Gengar trapping its target to set up a sweep for its team mate, are skewed in its favour. The player using Mega Gengar would simply need to switch it in while the opponent has to make careful plays to take care of the target that Mega Gengar is trying to trap. However, the whole point of Pokemon battles is about trying to outwit your opponent. Whether it be by making double switches or playing aggressively, a player should do whatever it takes to ensure that his/her Pokemon isn't trapped by Mega Gengar. It is similar to life, if you face a highly complex or even insurmountable obstacle in your life, do you make do with what you have and try to overcome your problem or would you simply end your life because you are 'left with no other choices'? Rather than simply whining about how you can't do much because you have little to no options, why not make do with what you have and give a good fight? For all you know, there may be a path that leads you to victory. While your choices may indeed be limited given the superb blend of speed and power of Mega Gengar, its user also has to predict how the opponent would move. Should it go for Destiny Bond or Taunt? A wrong prediction would often end up with a dead Gengar while the opponent escapes unscathed or with little damage. Thus, while the opponent needs to predict carefully the many possibilities that may happen against Mega Gengar, the user also needs to get the prediction right.
It is undeniable that the Mega Gengar user only needs to get it right once while the opponent needs to be correct throughout the match. However, even if a misprediction is made, it does not signal the end of the world. Therefore the player needs to play more aggressively with greater prediction either to ensure that the loss of a core member of the team is minimised or to reduce the odds of Mega Gengar successfully rooting out a core member of the team. The prediction and switching is similar to switching in Gliscor for Klefki on Arceus-Ground predicting an earthquake but getting floored by an Ice Beam and losing the match as a result. Or having a Quagsire take on a Ekiller but getting smashed by a Grass Knot instead. The similarities are that all these involv mind games, predicting the moves by the opponent and being proactive to force your opponent on the defensive while mixing things up to ensure that the opponent cannot guess your next step.
In addition, it is a near staple on Stall teams (which Mega Gengar shines against) to have Pursuit users to check the many Ghost and Psychic types that roam the Ubers tier. Although it is true that Mega Gengar has many options in its expansive movepool for the many Pursuit users such as HP Fire for Scizor (Mega) and Focus Blast for Ttar, it is important to note that Mega Gengar suffers from horrible 4MSS. It usually carry a combination of Taunt, Destiny Bond, Sub, Perish Song and Protect in its move pool, leaving it with 2 attacks of slots most of the time. This means that there are many moves that it has to give up on, from Focus Blast to Sludge Wave and HP Fire. Each of these moves missing greatly reduces the targets it can trap or leaves it vulnerable to a potential Pursuit. The poor bulk of Mega Gengar further exacerbates this issue, as it is easily removed by the different Pursuit trappers whether or not it is switched out. In short, even though Mega Gengar is a great Pokemon, it is not invincible and may not always perform its job successfully.
In conclusion, while Mega Gengar has many qualities that makes it an outstanding offensive Pokemon in the Ubers Tier, it has several shortcomings that it has yet to scale and thus, I strongly believe that it is not at the level of brokenness that we need to take the extraordinary step of banning it from Ubers.
One of the arguments I've read here lately is that the best way to deal with MGar and STag is prediction which Dice called glorified guesswork (lol he's right).
I wrote this, long before the Gengarite suspect:
Gengar @ Gengarite
Trait: Levitate > Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond
- Sludge Bomb / Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power [Fire] / Shadow Ball
With two strong STABs, poison having been buffed this Gen, and a plethora of strong coverage moves Mega-Gengar has taken over as a massive offensive threat. However the main reason Gengar has truly become one of the most prominent threats of this Generation, is its Mega Ability, Shadow Tag, and access to two moves, Taunt and Destiny Bond. Coupled with its Mega-boosted Speed stat (110 > 130) this causes him to outspeed potential counters, shut down walls, and then remove them with a well-timed Destiny Bond.
This article looks at Gengar's counters and checks in detail, and works out the most effective way to take down this top tier threat. It also gives a quick run-through of Mega-Gengar’s mind game, and how you can best handle it.
Counters and Checks to Mega-Gengar
Mega-Scizor:
Mega-Scizor has found a niche in Ubers this generation, largely due to its powerful Bullet Punch. This allows Scizor to be a solid check for many threats, notably Geomancy Xerneas, but it is also used as a Mega-Gengar trapper. With access to Pursuit, it can kill Gengar on the switch, or if it stays in Scizor can majorly dent it, and then kill it with Bullet Punch.
However, Scizor has two issues to face when checking Mega-Gengar. The first is Hidden Power [Fire]. This can't be handled by much outside of running some certain spread to guarantee Scizor's survival. The second is the mind game that Gengar brings to the table. If Mega-Gengar is left in on a Mega-Scizor Pursuit, then it will not be OHKOd.
This means that on turn two (assuming Mega-Gengar is not carrying Hidden Power [Fire]) the players will enter a mind game. Mega-Gengar could switch out of an expected Bullet Punch and live, or stay in and Destiny Bond on the Pursuit, and take down Mega-Scizor. One way to attempt to play around this, is reversing the order of your moves. Bullet Punch does over 50% damage to Mega-Gengar, and you will likely scare your opponent into a switch on turn two, and catch them with a Pursuit. Another option is playing it safe, and using Bullet Punch on turn two.
All of this is rendered irrelevant by Hidden Power [Fire].
Mega-Scizor generally finds itself on more stall based teams requiring a back-up check to Geomancy Xerneas. He can provide momentum with U-Turn, clear hazards with Defog, absorb several physical attacks and heal with Roost, and provide the role of revenge killer with Bullet Punch.
Note: While Mega-Gengar is not OHKO'd by Pursuit (without switch) Regular Form Gengar is (without switch) and your opponent may know this and not Mega-Evolve, use Destiny Bond and you will lose Scizor either way.
Additional Goodies:
This set avoids the OHKO from Hidden Power [Fire] and also allows it to tank other hits from various pokemon while dealing out damage.
Choice Band (Scizor-Mega) @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 148 Atk / 98 Def / 16 SDef
Careful Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Toxic
- Roost
- Pursuit
Aegislash:
Aegislash is a new pokemon in Generation 6, and it boasts a new typing, Steel/Ghost. This unique typing also came with an invaluable ability, Stance Change. It allows Aegislash to survive many Super Effective attacks, and then return with a powerful Blade Form attack. He is arguably one of the best Mega-Gengar counters, simply because he can avoid mind games completely. In Ubers Aegislash tends to run Gyro Ball and Shadow Sneak. When having Aegislash in on Mega-Gengar, one can use Gyro Ball and the following turn use Shadow Sneak to 2HKO Gengar. Aegislash also has the option of running Pursuit and trapping Gengar the same way Scizor does.
Why not use Shadow Sneak first? It's Super Effective after all.
Because Shadow Sneak is a +1 Priority move and Aegislash changes form when he attacks, this will allow Gengar to OHKO you back with a Shadow Ball or Hidden Power [Fire]. Whereas Shadow Sneak can only 2HKO Mega-Gengar. There is very little Gengar can do to work around Aegislash and will lose against it 99.9% of the time.
Aegislash finds itself on more stall based teams, again requiring a solid check to Geomancy Xerneas, and helping to check Mega-Gengar too. It can utilize stall itself with Toxic and King’s Shield while providing priority with Shadow Sneak, or taking down large threats such as Deoxys-A with Gyro Ball and Shadow Sneak combo.
Note: While Iron Head is a viable option versus Xerneas over Gyro Ball, against Mega-Gengar it can cause you to lose. Therefore running Gyro Ball will be a superior option in most cases.
Yveltal:
Yveltal is another new pokemon this Generation and has turned out to be a very powerful pokemon, with access to a STAB priority in Sucker Punch, and also a signature move in Oblivion Wing it is turning into a top tier threat. It also has the ability to scare Mega-Gengar. Running Taunt and Sucker Punch can allow Yveltal to either Taunt Mega-Gengar on a Destiny Bond, rendering it useless, or Sucker Punch on a constant spam of Destiny Bonds. If the opponent is silly enough to attempt to succeed against Yveltal then he will most likely Taunt you again, if that's what he did initially, when the first Taunt runs out. The first move Yveltal should make is to try and Taunt Mega-Gengar itself, especially if the opponent is not aware of the set you are running.
Yveltal is such a diverse pokemon that it can find itself on a large scale of builds. With Roost, Taunt and Foul Play it can work on a Defensive archetype, but it can also run a Life Orb set with Dark Pulse, Sucker Punch and Oblivion Wing. It can also successfully utilize items such as the Choice Scarf and Choice Specs.
Note: Destiny Bond mechanics are such that if you Taunt Mega-Gengar the same turn that it utilizes Destiny Bond, then Destiny Bond will remain in effect until Mega-Gengar moves again.
Landorus-T:
Landorus-Therian is capable of absorbing Mega-Gengar's attacks, while also weakening it with moves like Stone Edge and U-Turn, and switching out to a better counter. It is worth noting that Mega-Gengar with Icy Wind has a 50% chance to OHKO 252 / 0 Landorus-T.
Landorus-Therian works on balanced builds in the way that he can set up Stealth Rocks while outspeeding base 90s, or he can provide offensive pressure. Both his Toxic-Leftover set, and his Earth Plate + 3 attacks set work, and both can provide good pressure on the opponent with the right plays.
Dialga:
Dialga can handily wall any variant of Mega-Gengar not carrying Focus Blast. If you have not yet revealed your Dialga set to the opponent, then you have a chance to play around with Mega-Gengar. Running Thunder Wave Dialga and at least Draco Meteor can ensure that you win out on Gengar when played right. Using Dialga earlier in the match and utilizing constant Draco Meteors may trick your opponent into thinking you're Choiced. It will also work better if you have two potential Stealth Rock setters on your side, further causing your opponent to guess.
Similar to Yveltal, Dialga is a fairly diverse pokemon who can either pressure the opponent offensively, or tank enormous hits defensively. He is more commonly seen setting up Stealth Rocks and checking metagame threats such as Scarf Kyogre.
Specially Defensive Groudon:
Specially Defensive Groudon (and even Defensive) can absorb Mega-Gengar's hits with relative ease. He can then either Thunder Wave and Earthquake, similar to Dialga, or utilize Dragon Tail to avoid Gengar's mind game completely.
Specially Defensive Groudon is seen on stall based teams or balanced archetypes where a wall is required, although Groudon’s stats point towards a better Defensive set, he can catch the opponent off guard by packing Special Defense EVs.
Specially Defensive Kyogre:
Specially Defensive Kyogre can carry out a very similar deed as Groudon although its phazing move can be shut down by Taunt. Essentially the only chance a Taunted Kyogre would have against Mega-Gengar is if it got the burn from Scald.
Similar to Groudon, although in the respect that Specially Defensive Kyogre is utilizing its better stat, Kyogre is used as a wall over other options generally to provide Rain support which can be invaluable to some pokemon.
Pranksters:
Pokemon with the Prankster ability can move before Gengar, either KO'ing, crippling, or shutting it down. Thundurus-I and Sableye can both use Taunt before Gengar to stop it using Taunt or Destiny Bond itself. Sableye may be a superior option due to Ghost pokemon being able to switch out of Shadow Tag. Another option is Klefki who can cripple Mega-Gengar with a priority Thunder Wave. There is also Talonflame who can OHKO Mega-Gengar with a priority Brave Bird.
Additional Ghost types:
Because Shadow Tag doesn't affect other ghost types, they have the advantage of being able to switch out into a different team mate to better handle Mega-Gengar. Such as Yveltal, or Mega-Mewtwo. However, sometimes the player can trick his opponent into thinking he will switch and then stay in and OHKO Mega-Gengar with a strong STAB move. Notable Ghost types are Arceus-Ghost and Giratina-O/A
Shed Shell:
Shed Shell has risen as a viable item this generation, largely due to Mega-Gengar. It allows pokemon like Blissey and Skarmory to switch out which is invaluable considering they are such stall based pokemon. However being forced to run Shed Shell can limit them slightly, and also, while they may switch out, the looming threat of Mega-Gengar trapping them remains.
Faster Pokemon:
Faster Pokemon can also beat Mega-Gengar 1-v-1. These include, but are not limited to, Choice Scarfed pokemon, Mega-Mewtwo Y, Deoxys-Speed, and Deoxys-Attack. Deoxys-Attack can threaten Mega-Gengar on the switch with a potential Pursuit, thus trapping and killing it either way (worth noting that Gengar easily kills Deoxys-Attack with Shadow Ball). Deoxys-Speed carrying Psycho Boost can easily OHKO Mega-Gengar, and scare it into a switch. Mega-Mewtwo Y similarly scares Mega-Gengar with a powerful Psystrike.
Deoxys-Speed and Deoxys-Attack are seen on Hyper Offense builds (although Deoxys-Attack can be used as a revenge killer/cleaner on balanced builds) while Mega-Mewtwo Y is seen on either Hyper Offense, balanced, or even stall based teams with its StallTwo set (Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, Recover, Psystrike).
Mechanics of Shadow Tag:
There are certain mechanics to Shadow Tag that may or may not be common knowledge. The first is that a pokemon can switch out of Gengar when it is in its Normal form, even if it Mega Evolves that turn.* The second is that a pokemon may switch out the same turn as a Mega-Gengar switch in, even if Mega-Gengar is the first to come in.** The third is that Shadow Tag does not affect ghost pokemon, allowing pokemon like Arceus-Ghost and Giratina to switch out of Mega-Gengar.
"Is he going to Taunt my Arceus... or Destiny Bond predicting my predict of his Taunt? Or maybe he'll see that coming and decide to go for the Taunt to stop my Defog. Or what if...?"
Mind games are truly the worst thing when it comes to battling. Constantly wondering what could happen, and worrying about what might happen if you play wrong. There are two things you can do to help alleviate the mind game stress.
1. Read your opponent's playstyle.
What kind of player is he/she? This can help you assess what they might do. A cautious, but prediction based player, will most likely go for the standard leave Gengar in on Scizor and switch out on the Bullet Punch. A player who takes a lot of risks will likely make the more dangerous plays that could make him lose Gengar, but win him a significant advantage if it plays out right (commonly known as high risk/high reward plays). If your opponent tends not to predict, then you can make your predictions based on a simple play. This will help you to gain a better understanding of what your opponent may choose to do.
2. How valuable is the pokemon you have in on Mega-Gengar?
If the pokemon threatens your opponent's team hugely, then he is invaluable to you and it would behoove you to play safely and keep it alive. If your opponent has several counters to it, or simply doesn't take much damage from it overall (for example Scizor vs a team with Groudon, Ho-Oh, Kyogre and Reshiram) then you can probably chance those riskier plays because Scizor won't be helping you that much. Based off of this analysis you can then go for a safe play, or a high risk/high reward one.
List of calculations(in reference to statements made in this article):
Scizor:
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 192-228 (73.2 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 144-171 (54.9 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Gengar Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 320-380 (93 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 242-286 (92.3 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Gengar Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Mega Scizor: 288-340 (83.9 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Aegislash:
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 186-218 (57.4 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 241-285 (91.9 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (56 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 169-201 (64.5 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 242-288 (92.3 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 130-154 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Yveltal:
252 SpA Life Orb Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 179-212 (68.3 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 460-541 (175.5 - 206.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 184-217 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 69.9% chance to 2HKO
Landorus-T:
252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 157-185 (59.9 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 27-32 (10.3 - 12.2%) -- possible 9HKO
252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 192-226 (50.2 - 59.1%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Gengar Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 352-416 (92.1 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Dialga:
252+ SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 271-319 (103.4 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 208-246 (79.3 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dialga: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dialga: 318-376 (78.7 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Groudon:
252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon: 124-147 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- 59.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Gengar Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon: 114-136 (28.2 - 33.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon: 124-146 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- 50.8% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Groudon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 372-438 (141.9 - 167.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Groudon Dragon Tail vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 74-88 (28.2 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
Kyogre:
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre: 112-133 (27.7 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
8 SpA Kyogre Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar in Rain: 195-229 (74.4 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Talonflame:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 283-334 (108 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega-Mewtwo Y:
252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Psystrike vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 534-630 (203.8 - 240.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Deoxys-Speed/Attack:
0 SpA Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 302-356 (115.2 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Deoxys-A Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 136-160 (51.9 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Deoxys-A Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 528-624 (201.5 - 238.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-A: 992-1170 (411.6 - 485.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
SteelSkitty – For helping me with the Mega-Gengar checks and counters, and for grammar and spell checking the drafts.
Aeternis – For helping me get the replays for Shadow Tag mechanics.
Final Note: This thread is not for discussing a Mega-Gengar ban. Any posts on banning Mega-Gengar will result in the thread being taken down permanently
Basically outlining all of the best situations to deal with MGar. I wasn't as knowledgeable about the tier at the time (lol still not) and looking back really it is ALL prediction based.
Switching is an integral part of the pokemon game as many users have stated and while I believe this to be true I also believe that clearing a specific pokemon to allow your side to sweep is also a legit strategy. Shadow Tag just does this way better than any other pokemon. But some of the best points I've seen brought up are:
- Switching
- coinflips
- Ubers as a non-ban tier
I look forward to seeing some more discussion and reading a lot of what people say. I didn't make reqs so I cannot vote, rip me.
I feel that Megagar was just annoying more than broken, in that it could easily come in on what was often my win condition (Klefki to stop Geomancy Xerneas) with Perish Trap, luring Thunder Wave by fooling me into expecting the standard Taunt/D-Bond set every so often (it happened twice during my time laddering), perish trapping me, and making it impossible to win. That is the issue with it. It can so easily force a loss onto the opponent, and it meets the characteristics not only an uber, but more than an uber simply based on how easily it forces a win onto its own team. This situation is uncommon as most people prefer the support provided with Taunt and Destiny Bond over the ability to perish trap a win condition, like my Klefki, and force me to either forfiet or be sweeped. However, the thing that I noticed was that it wasn't Mega Gengar itself which was broken, but rather the combination of Perish Song and Shadow Tag. It makes it too easy to force a loss on the opponent, and if this suspect test were to decide on a complex ban of Perish Song + Trapping Ability it would be much better. It is one of its sets which is uncompetitive, but not the pokemon itself. While it is possible to outplay, it requires very heavy prediction on the user of Mega Gengar's target to happen, while the user of Gar just needs to get the prediction right once for it to be GG. This is why the set is so formidable in combination with Xerneas, as it can perish trap anything that can stop it, come in when its ready to - be it to sack itself off or to lure Knock Off onto Xerneas or something - and give Xerneas a safe switch in to set up and sweep the opponent. Setting up with Xerneas without Perish Trap Gar requires a match full of good plays and predictions, while when Perish Trap Gar is used it means that a bad player (large number of matches but still at less than 1300) can beat a medium-to-high-level player with far too much ease, and it takes the skill away from the match. In the same scenario without mega gar, the medium-to-high-level player should easily win 99/100 matches, but if the bad player is using perish trap gar it could easily go to as little as 75 or even 50, and it takes the skill out of the match. In lower tiers, it is gimmicks which make it harder to get off of the lower ladder when you start laddering, but in ubers it is a combination of the two things that makes it hard, and it just isn't funny. I'm probably not going to vote for Gar to be banned, but I feel the idea of a complex ban is one which needs to be thought about as Gar is reasonable to handle without the set, even if you can't switch your counter in on it.
I'm probably not going to vote for Gar to be banned, but I feel the idea of a complex ban is one which needs to be thought about as Gar is reasonable to handle without the set, even if you can't switch your counter in on it.
Although Perish Song Mega-Gengar is certainly annoying, banning Perish Song + Trapping Ability doesn't get the root of the issue. The real problem with Perish Song + Trapping Ability is that Shadow Tag prevents the opponent from switching out. In other words, the opponent (with the exception of phazing moves) has no choice but to stay in. As such, the combination of Perish Song + Shadow Tag is just a good way to abuse Mega-Gengar. The uncompetitive aspect of that combination is the ability Shadow Tag. I think that banning Perish Song + Trapping Ability is too restrictive and ignores other effective Mega-Gengar sets (Taunt + Destiny Bond for example) that can remove a sweeper's checks and pave the way for a sweep.
Attention to the following users: please report to the thread below to cast your vote on Gengarite. You will have a few days to get your vote (and subsequent paragraph) in!
So, here are my thoughts after reading this thread and laddering. I wrote this in advance for the voting thread, but after seeing the sheer number of people eligible to vote I decided that posting this wall of text there would be cruel to the mods. What I will post in the voting thread will be a very condensed version of this.
First of all, I am of an opinion that the general problem is Shadow Tag. However, as we are suspecting Mega Gengar, all my thoughts will be with regard to Mega Gengar and Mega Gengar only, without extension to either lower tiers or other trappers.
So, as it was pointed out by countless people, this suspect test was all about whether Mega Gengar is uncompetitive rather than overpowered. This is natural, as things that are broken due to being overpowered get banned to Ubers, not from Ubers (because Ubers is in any case a hybrid of a tier and a banlist, regardless of which of these sides every individual player might consider more important at this point). While it is true that something can be uncompetitive and have zero real impact on the meta (Sand Attack), in which case it is not ban-worthy, it is pretty clear that with MGar it is not the case.
Now, what in the hell is “uncompetitive”? Well, although there is no strict definition (let alone a binding one, also do note that we cannot stick to dictionaries here, as that would rid the Moody, Swagger, sleep clauses of any rationale, as traditional non-Smogon definitions of "competition" and "competitive" do not require that something is skill-based as opposed to being luck-based) , in my opinion (and it’s not only my opinion) these are things that take out skill from a match or a considerable part thereof, and/or make it boil down entirely or at least mostly to luck, such as Moody and Swagger. So, we have to figure out if the way Mega Gengar operates in the meta is similar to how these things work. Therefore, I will not delve into the stats of MGar, its high attack and wide movepool, lack of counters and all that, as that stuff, in my opinion, falls within the category of “is it overpowered?”, and in that regard it was established long ago that yes, it is too overpowered for OU, and it is thus an Uber. Ubers is Ubers, and nothing can be too overpowered for Ubers, as Ubers doesn’t need to be balanced, all it needs is to stay competitive. So, is Mega Gengar uncompetitive? In my opinion, yes, although it is a lot more subtle than with Moody and Swagger.
Basically, the mere presence of a Mega Gengar forces coinflips. Lots of them. These are not straightforward RNG-based coinflips, but, rather, 50/50 games of “guess or die”. It is true that every match has similar situations, and many will argue that there is always a safer and thus more correct play based on a risk/reward evaluation. This is true, however, these would be a different kind of 50/50s. The only 50/50s that come down to pure guessing are usually restricted to endgames in normal matches, and in 99% of cases the situations only have the appearance of a 50/50, while in reality both players have a safer play (basically, the one that gives a higher chance of winning, even if no play is completely safe).
The presence of Mega Gengar on the field causes the “true” 50/50s, the ones where the player without MGar has to guess. A lot. From turn 1. The player has to guess every single turn whether MGar will come in or not, and whether to keep or switch in the check to MGar or keep/switch in the check to another threat on the team that MGar is required to take out. And until either one faints, this Russian Roulette goes on, with little risk for the player who uses MGar (the absolute worst scenario in all cases when MGar outspeeds, which is most cases, is a double down by Destiny Bond) and an extremely high risk for the player who does not.
As an illustration, let me imagine a situation where player 1 has an EKiller and MGar (let’s assume for the sake of simplicity that the MGar has no HP Fire), while player 2 has defensive Yveltal to check Ekiller and Pursuit-trapping MScizor to check MGengar.
Player 1 sends in EKiller, Player 2 sends in Yveltal. Now, Player 2 has to guess whether to keep Yveltal in and go for Foul Play/Roost or send in Scizor, predicting the Gengar switch. What does Player 1 risk? Player 1 risks getting hit by a Foul Play (which doesn’t OHKO MGar outside of a crit, and only OHKOes Gengar before MEvolution if it’s running a high Atk IV, which it shouldn’t) if he switches Gengar, which will result in MGar taking Yveltal down with DBond, or, if Player 2 predicts the switch and goes out into Scizor, losing MGar while keeping the main offensive threat in EKiller intact and the opportunity to widdle Yveltal down further throughout the match. Player 2 can either take down EKiller (if Player 1 stays in and goes for ESpeed or SD), or lose Yveltal to MGar and then get swept by EKiller.
While reward for guessing correctly (note: in this particular example) is only slightly higher for Player 1 (the reward for the correct move in this situation is taking down one of the opponent’s wincons), the overall risk he or she has to take is infinitely lower, so Player 2 does not have to worry much about making the “wrong” play. The risk for Player 2, on the other hand, is so high that it is essentially “guess incorrectly – you lose the match”.
Now, if we add that up with the fact that MGar can easily force these situations multiple times throughout the match, it doesn’t look good for Player 2 no matter what he or she does. Moreover, in cases when MGar does not have to resort to DBond to take a certain threat down (which is actually most cases, as my example uses one of the better matchups for a non-MGar player, with it not running HP Fire and the “check” MGar is taking down being capable of doing something to MGar), it can rinse and repeat the same thing several times in one match if needed. Every single time the non-MGar player has to guess; hell, even if non-MGar player resorts to forcing MGar to use DBond to ensure a double down, it still requires guessing.
Tl;dr the keywords are “guess”, “beginning Turn 1”, and “all the time”. If something consistently forces you to actually guess multiple times with 0 or almost 0 (depending on the team matchup) margin for error, it is definitely uncompetitive. Guessing is not skill-based. Reading the opponent is skill-based, evaluating risks and rewards is skill-based, choosing saccs correctly is skill-based, flipping coins (even if the player has to flip the coin in his or her head rather than leave it up to the RNG) is not. Not only does Mega Gengar cause coinflips, it causes them multiple times throughout the match with its mere presence. I find it unacceptable.
I believe that, although I do find Ubers to be a banlist first and foremost, Ubers is also a tier, and uncompetitive things should be eliminated, considering that it has been done before with Moody and sleep clause and whatnot. I find it that the properties that Mega Gengar has and the way it affects the metagame do fall within the notion of “uncompetitive” and I therefore will vote to ban Mega Gengar.
So, as it was pointed out by countless people, this suspect test was all about whether Mega Gengar is uncompetitive rather than overpowered. This is natural, as things that are broken due to being overpowered get banned to Ubers, not from Ubers (because Ubers is in any case a hybrid of a tier and a banlist, regardless of which of these sides every individual player might consider more important at this point). While it is true that something can be uncompetitive and have zero real impact on the meta (Sand Attack), in which case it is not ban-worthy, it is pretty clear that with MGar it is not the case.
Don't get confused. Uncompetitive is not a word. It was something we made up to avoid using broken as the term to describe it, as like you said, if we used the term broken to describe Mega Gengar there would be no reason for people to question a ban from Ubers.
Now, what in the hell is “uncompetitive”? Well, although there is no strict definition (let alone a binding one, also do note that we cannot stick to dictionaries here, as that would rid the Moody, Swagger, sleep clauses of any rationale, as traditional non-Smogon definitions of "competition" and "competitive" do not require that something is skill-based as opposed to being luck-based) , in my opinion (and it’s not only my opinion) these are things that take out skill from a match or a considerable part thereof, and/or make it boil down entirely or at least mostly to luck, such as Moody and Swagger. So, we have to figure out if the way Mega Gengar operates in the meta is similar to how these things work. Therefore, I will not delve into the stats of MGar, its high attack and wide movepool, lack of counters and all that, as that stuff, in my opinion, falls within the category of “is it overpowered?”, and in that regard it was established long ago that yes, it is too overpowered for OU, and it is thus an Uber. Ubers is Ubers, and nothing can be too overpowered for Ubers, as Ubers doesn’t need to be balanced, all it needs is to stay competitive. So, is Mega Gengar uncompetitive? In my opinion, yes, although it is a lot more subtle than with Moody and Swagger.
Basically, the mere presence of a Mega Gengar forces coinflips. Lots of them. These are not straightforward RNG-based coinflips, but, rather, 50/50 games of “guess or die”. It is true that every match has similar situations, and many will argue that there is always a safer and thus more correct play based on a risk/reward evaluation. This is true, however, these would be a different kind of 50/50s. The only 50/50s that come down to pure guessing are usually restricted to endgames in normal matches, and in 99% of cases the situations only have the appearance of a 50/50, while in reality both players have a safer play (basically, the one that gives a higher chance of winning, even if no play is completely safe).
The presence of Mega Gengar on the field causes the “true” 50/50s, the ones where the player without MGar has to guess. A lot. From turn 1. The player has to guess every single turn whether MGar will come in or not, and whether to keep or switch in the check to MGar or keep/switch in the check to another threat on the team that MGar is required to take out. And until either one faints, this Russian Roulette goes on, with little risk for the player who uses MGar (the absolute worst scenario in all cases when MGar outspeeds, which is most cases, is a double down by Destiny Bond) and an extremely high risk for the player who does not.
People continue to bring up this 50/50 argument but never in the sense that Gengar ALSO has a 50% chance of dying. What if you Taunt as they kill you? What if you Destiny Bond on a DD? Yes, Gengar has a good shot at getting a kill, but it generally also dies in the process unless it is revenge killing something. There are very rarely "lots of coinflips" like you mention. Unless you are playing a stall team there is generally one, and you either win it or lose it. This means that there is a lot of risk on the line for the playing using Mega Gengar. What if I need to remove a Bronzong or Scizor so that my Xerneas is free to sweep? My little mind games with my opponent suddenly don't matter if I predict the Taunt/Destiny Bond incorrectly? Wrong. If I fuck up I lose the chance for a free Xerneas sweep, and since the general consensus is that Gengar removes X threat for a Y sweep, there is a HUGE risk for the Mega Gengar player.
Don't get confused. Uncompetitive is not a word. It was something we made up to avoid using broken as the term to describe it, as like you said, if we used the term broken to describe Mega Gengar there would be no reason for people to question a ban from Ubers.
People continue to bring up this 50/50 argument but never in the sense that Gengar ALSO has a 50% chance of dying. What if you Taunt as they kill you? What if you Destiny Bond on a DD? Yes, Gengar has a good shot at getting a kill, but it generally also dies in the process unless it is revenge killing something. There are very rarely "lots of coinflips" like you mention. Unless you are playing a stall team there is generally one, and you either win it or lose it. This means that there is a lot of risk on the line for the playing using Mega Gengar. What if I need to remove a Bronzong or Scizor so that my Xerneas is free to sweep? My little mind games with my opponent suddenly don't matter if I predict the Taunt/Destiny Bond incorrectly? Wrong. If I fuck up I lose the chance for a free Xerneas sweep, and since the general consensus is that Gengar removes X threat for a Y sweep, there is a HUGE risk for the Mega Gengar player.
First of all, if there are 50/50s when you have to guess, even when Gengar does have a 50% chance of being KOed, it's still bad in my opinion when half of the turns during the battle become the game of "dammit, will he switch the Gengar now or next turn? Or the turn after that?" The problem, in my opinion, isn't in the 50/50s themselves, but in MGar very frequently causing inevitable sequences of them due to its mere presence.
Secondly, when Gengar is up against something that can survive its hit and KO back, and Gengar is still needed against something else, the moves of choice are Destiny Bond and to switch out. Your example with a Dragon Dancing sweeper seems to be a specific example which doesn't prove a general point. In an absolute majority of cases the chance of Gengar dying (note: without taking the opponent down in the process) is a lot lower than 50%. Whenever Gengar happily traps anything that can't boost its Speed and respective offensive stat and isn't a scarfed sweeper, it suddenly, depending on the matchup, is either gg for non-MGar player or it becomes a lot harder for said player to come back (once again, we're talking about absolute majority of cases, but not 100% of them). And if the trapped mon is a boosting or scarfed sweeper, it becomes another sequence of coinflips, as Gengar can simply switch out and threaten to come back again (this is especially true for scarfed sweepers, as they don't get a chance to boost their power to the levels when they can break through everything) on whatever it needs to trap.
Okay so I've not made reqs (being away for a large amount of the ladder's available period did not help lol) but I'm going to put a full detailed arguement here for the pro-ban side for people who achieved reqs to read (I suspect there's several looking for tiering contributor badge who don't play ubers outside of this ladder, and they might well benefit the most).
The fundamental reason Gengarite is being suspected is not due to mega gengar's sweeping capacity, but is due to its combination of Shadow Tag, high speed and special attack, and usable bulk.
Quote and Chat log discussing with an unknown player discussing shadow tag said:
A quote from someone I met once.. 'Nyokolol: anyone with a brain would see it pie, it can remove counters that stop your other sweepers from sweeping and just trap them' see http://pastebin.com/apF9aifB for more
The reason that people feel that it ought to be banned is that in their opinion mega gengar is uncompetitive. In my experience it's pretty dodgy trying to define this term, but I generally would say that it's something that signficantly takes away from player skill. There's 2 main elements to skill (this is arguable but I would be interested to hear sensible arguements to the contrary), these are teambuilding and switching. It is important to note that in a tier where teambuilding is limited, switching remains a very key skill (see RBY OU where teambuilding is less key than in later generations for example), however in a tier where switching is limited teambuilding consequently makes less difference. At a later point I'll discuss how all the current clauses have very clear relationships with switching, and how a ban on shadow tag would have a similar one. However, that would be relevant to a shadow tag suspect discussion and less so a gengarite discussion; gengarite nevertheless has the same flaws as does shadow tag, and my post will illustrate why the 1 turn required to activate shadow tag is insufficient to prevent it from being equally broken.
The next point to address is whether there is a precedent to ban this item. Everyone is fully aware that as a consequence it would mean banning a pokemon; whilst you could argue over that technicality, it's fairly irrelevant, if an element of the game is uncompetitive, then you ban said element; gengarite is a part of the shadow tag element. So whilst this ban is an incomplete part of an overall greater move to ban shadow tag, it is nevertheless valuable to ban gengarite as a stepping stone to banning shadow tag. This post will not discuss any shadow tag users other than mega-gengar though, as it would be irrelevant. http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-world-as-we-know-it-and-i-feel-fine.3472454/ This thread is from BW2 Ubers retesting of the clauses, and bojangles, the ubers leader at the time, states how if a pokemon were deemed uncompetitive, it would be banned. So now, let's have a look at the typical sets Mega-Gengar runs.
Other key moves:
Hidden Power Fire, Icy Wind, Thunder, Substitute
Gengar can be specialised to hit the appropriate threats that you wish to remove. Focus Blast and Sludge Wave or Shadow Ball hit a large proportion of the tier anyway, but Hidden Power Fire hits (Mega) Scizor, Forretress, and Ferrothorn much more powerfully (helping both with Xerneas and Zekrom for example to sweep), as well as stopping Scizor from successfully pursuit trapping (we'll analysis situations involving pursuit trapping later on). Icy Wind hits Gliscor and Landorus-T, and helps generally lowering the speed of opposing pokemon as well which can be potentially useful versus some targets. Thunder can be used to hit pokemon such as Kyogre and Palkia harder, working well with its own Kyogre support. Taunt allows it to threaten a huge variety of pokemon, whilst destiny bond allows it to guarantee that an opposing pokemon is taken down almost guarante'edly. It can take out a variety of pokemon, from any playstyle (although it may have to come in when a pokemon dies on offense, or only be able to take down 1 pokemon).
Gengar @ Gengarite
EVs: 248 HP / 84 SpD / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
- Perish Song
- Taunt
- Protect
- Disable/Substitute
This set is much less used and arguably much less useful, but it is a viable set in some sense, and is reasonably competent at breaking down stall pokemon, but the inability to defeat any pursuit trapper makes it much less useful.
Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 168 HP / 124 SpD / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
- Reflect Type
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Rest
This set was a set that surfaced later on, after SPL, but it can guarantee that a pursuit trapper will be unsuccessful in trapping it, excepting hax, and tyranitar has a 1 in 3 chance to predict guess correctly as to what move to do, assuming it carries all 3 of pursuit, payback or crunch, and superpower. It does however have less utility versus offensive teams (but it still functions as an ekiller check with WoW)
Pursuit trappers can be attempted to counteract mega-gengar, but none are consistent versus each set. CB Scizor - Has to win a 50/50 vs standard gengar, instant loss if hidden power fire, loses to perish song gengar, loses to reflect type (apart from when WoW misses) so max 15% chance to beat that variant. Mega Scizor - Instant loss to Hidden Power Fire (outside of rain), can still lose versus plain gengar, and at worst there is a 50/50 for between and including 1 to 8 turns between gengar's choice of taunt versus destiny bond to guarantee that it is removed. Mega Scizor also functions as at least 1 of a xerneas check, ekiller check, and defogger. Has similar chances to CB Scizor versus Reflect Type mega gengar. Chople Ttar (Lum has a higher chance to beat Reflect Type however) - If mega gengar predicts correctly on the switch in and focus blasts, it's a coinflip due to focus blast's accuracy as to who wins. The sand notably helps push the odds slightly into the tyranitar user's favour to remove mega gengar without losing tyranitar in the instance of taunt/destiny bond 50/50s. Perish Song loses if ttar double switches in, wins if ttar has to switch into it. Reflect Type causes a choice between Mega Gengar using WoW/Reflect Type/Switching and Tyranitar using Pursuit/Crunch or Payback/Low Kick of Superpower (has a greater chance to win with superpower than low kick since it's twice as powerful and thus can do enough damage when burnt to win). WoW is probably gengar's worst option due to the accuracy of it, however it is still highly valid. Lum berry doesn't have to fear WoW and thus can win unless gengar reflect types on pursuit and then switches, or switches on a low kick/superpower; in this instance it is a 50/50 to win, but lum ttar has uch poorer odds than chople ttar versus standard mega gengar. Aegislash - Standard mega gengar is another 50/50 as to whether aegislash is taken down or not alongside mega gengar. mega gengar may not carry appropriate coverage to hit aegislash, but destiny bond is still effective. Aegislash usually is also a soft check to mewtwo and a hard check to geomancy xerneas. AV Spiritomb (and Honchkrow) - Consistently can remove gengar if switched in safely versus it, however not guaranteed to not go down themselves (if you take the risk then you risk not trapping gengar). Both have trouble with the perish song set unless they double switch in safely, in which case they win. The reflect type mega gengar set has a very easy time versus both of these sets. AVtomb helps check mewtwo Y and has a helpful immunity to mega gengar's focus blast, AVkrow helps check darkrai (insomnia + superpower) and mewtwo (pursuit + sucker punch) bar stalltwo and can help with sylveon (steel wing) or forretress and scizor (although its heat wave won't OHKO ferrothorn) or blissey and tyranitar (both with superpower)
Those are all of the pursuit trappers I have seen or heard about. As you can see they have all got a difficult time to guarantee taking down gengar, depending on how safely they can manage to switch in. Note that the first set can run a variety of different moves to support what the team needs removing exactly to enable a sweep, but that most sets will guaranteed carry at least 1 STAB, which allows it to guarantee a revenge kill versus pokemon such as palkia (and let kyogre sweep - what fun, it's not as if this situation never happens, and even if it did it would be very rare) (and that includes all type of palkia except for perhaps twave or dragon tail/roar palkia) (it's the most obvious example, but almost every team will contain its own example, such as arceus-water/fairy/grass, gliscor, landorus-t (although u-turn and gengar's loss of levitate and consequential ground weakness after mega evolving make it slightly less threatened), etc.) whilst the second set (which is rarely seen) mostly operates to take out stall, and is the least relevant set to this discussion. The last set is incredibly destructive versus stall since it can survive any pursuit trapper with the most ease of any of the sets, and taunt and WoW threaten larger portions of those teams. In terms of utilit versus offensive teams, the base 110 speed before mega evolving and access to WoW allow it to act as a check to physical attackers such as ekiller, mega kangaskhan, SD groundceus, landorus-t, and is also not bait for geomancy xerneas due to possessing taunt.
So in summary:
- There is a precedent to ban a pokemon from ubers if it is uncompetitive
- In my opinion, mega-gengar is uncompetitive due to abusing its ability shadow tag, which allows it to take out a specific pokemon on the opponent's team (with very little limitation, espcially with so few scarfers in the tier, only 4 or 5 really common ones) in order for a teammate to sweep, e.g. taking out palkia to let kyogre sweep, or gliscor and arceus-grass to let zekrom sweep
- In spite of the turn to mega evolve, pursuit is an unreliable method of trapping mega gengar, often with odds that are at best a little more than 50% to succeed, depending on the pursuit trapper's set and mega gengar's. Note that losing the pursuit trapper is likely if the foe has mega gengar, and thus cannot be used to check anything else on teams carrying mega gengar (e.g. mega scizor also checking xerneas and offering defog support) and effectively requires you to build a team that can beat a team of any 6 top metagame threats using only 5 pokemon (and this is with the evidently flawed assumption that the pursuit trapper can guarantee the removal of mega gengar).
Just because other things can cause significant coinflips in other aspects of the metagame doesn't mean that they aren't also uncompetitive if it's essentially a coinflip, but if anyone can suggest additional bans that would clearly remove those situations then I would be just as much all for it as I am for the ban on shadow tag.
Relationship between clauses and switching OHKO Clause - Whilst this was in place due to having a couple of good abusers (e.g. last gen it was bulky kyogre and excadrill in sand), we didn't ban the abusers but instead we banned the moves. These moves punish the opponent, irrespsective of the choice of move that they make. So essentially this clause is because the factor of the game that it limits makes the choice element of switching redundant. Swagger Clause - Whilst you could switch to remove the effect of confusion, it ultimately made the choice elemt of switching redundant. It punishes every switch equally, irrespective of the choice made in the switch. Furthermore, it is worth noting that Swagger-based strategies could often be paired with hazard setting in order to punish switching to PP drain, since you ultimately have to face up to swagger in order to be able to remove hazards. It was made better due to Klefki mainly, but we didn't ban klefki, since it was Swagger which was making the element of switching redundant. Sleep Clause - IRC log from Melee explaining the link between sleep and switching
<Melee_Mewtwo> oh man i explained in thread but
<Melee_Mewtwo> unlimited sleep meant
<Melee_Mewtwo> you could spam sleep
<Melee_Mewtwo> and there wans't a way to switch out of that
<Melee_Mewtwo> cause there's no switch in to sleep
<Melee_Mewtwo> you just get the new mon slept
<Melee_Mewtwo> and same scenario
<Melee_Mewtwo> so to stop that
<Melee_Mewtwo> folks did sleep clause
<Melee_Mewtwo> you can still sleep
<Melee_Mewtwo> just not the full team
<Melee_Mewtwo> so you can sack a mon to it
<Melee_Mewtwo> and then switch out
<Melee_Mewtwo> into a new scenario
pokemon such as darkrai, venomoth, and butterfree were pokemon which made sleep good, but they weren't banned because it was sleep that made the element of switching redundant. Species Clause - actually this one is a longer story, relating back to stadium days where teams of 1 pokemon x6 were usable and they were the best. I can't relate it to switching, but it's the only one on the list and it's not really quite as much here as the others due to switching. I think the tier would probably be more imbalanced if this were not a clause. Moody Clause - With this one it did require a little bit of luck to work, but if it did (and you could give yourself multiple chances) then you forced the opponent into a situation where it doesn't make a modicum of difference their choices with respect to switching. This is perhaps unique insofar as with the other clauses specific pokemon were good with the broken strategy, whilst others were not. With moody, even bidoof was capable of sweeping with it. Endless Battle Clause - In this one, forcing an endless battle means putting your opponent into a position where they are unable to switch and unable to faint; this one is not about a broken strategy in terms of to win with, but it instead causes frustration for no gain other than causing frustration. Shadow Tag Clause - Well actually UU have this, but in ubers this is something that a gengarite ban will start to look like. In this, the player is unable to switch; sure, some of the abusers are better whilst others aren't (mega gengar is more useful by a mile than gothita and wynaut) but the principle behind why it's banned is solely due to how it affects switching, as is reflected in the other clauses. The arguements addressing 50/50s merely show that there is no reliable way to counter mega gengar. It doesn't actually address the fundamental issue, so the 50/50 arguement which, if it's one you find holds no water, it isn't totally relevant since shadow tag can force situations where the choice is taken completely out of 1 player's control.
Okay so the wording of these things has been really tricky to express properly - the difference between finding the right word and accepting the almost right word is something a poet is familiar with, and with time being as pressing as it is, the almost right word will have to do for now. I hope you can see how the different fundamental layers of this all interwork together. The only anti-ban opinion I really hold is that of being unable to use mega gengar in any official smogon singles tier, in a tiering system which is designed to allow it to be possible whatever the pokemon (chaos mentioned this issue and I can empathise with it). In terms of a choice between having a competitive tier and a playable banlist, is why not if it's a playable banlist then remove each and every one of these clauses? (You can play this as streetmons to my awareness) Since by that definition it is more than merely a playable banlist, in fact a competitive tier as well, that we ought to ban features of the metagame which are uncompetitive. This includes shadow tag. Whether it ought perhaps to include baton pass, evasion, geomancy, or anything else of that ilk remains a different question, but I hope you've read and understood the points I've been trying to express with respect to the pro-ban arguement for gengarite, and shadow tag by extension.
Although Perish Song Mega-Gengar is certainly annoying, banning Perish Song + Trapping Ability doesn't get the root of the issue. The real problem with Perish Song + Trapping Ability is that Shadow Tag prevents the opponent from switching out. In other words, the opponent (with the exception of phazing moves) has no choice but to stay in. As such, the combination of Perish Song + Shadow Tag is just a good way to abuse Mega-Gengar. The uncompetitive aspect of that combination is the ability Shadow Tag. I think that banning Perish Song + Trapping Ability is too restrictive and ignores other effective Mega-Gengar sets (Taunt + Destiny Bond for example) that can remove a sweeper's checks and pave the way for a sweep.
The issue here is that Taunt + DB isn't actually uncompetitive or broken. The only thing that it makes completely useless in the meta is Chansey (and I guess non-Shed Shell variants of Blissey, although you're doing it wrong if you forgo it while Mega Gengar is still legal), who is very rarely a win-condition, if ever, as it is.
As an illustration, let me imagine a situation where player 1 has an EKiller and MGar (let’s assume for the sake of simplicity that the MGar has no HP Fire), while player 2 has defensive Yveltal to check Ekiller and Pursuit-trapping MScizor to check MGengar.
Player 1 sends in EKiller, Player 2 sends in Yveltal. Now, Player 2 has to guess whether to keep Yveltal in and go for Foul Play/Roost or send in Scizor, predicting the Gengar switch. What does Player 1 risk? Player 1 risks getting hit by a Foul Play (which doesn’t OHKO MGar outside of a crit, and only OHKOes Gengar before MEvolution if it’s running a high Atk IV, which it shouldn’t) if he switches Gengar, which will result in MGar taking Yveltal down with DBond, or, if Player 2 predicts the switch and goes out into Scizor, losing MGar while keeping the main offensive threat in EKiller intact and the opportunity to widdle Yveltal down further throughout the match. Player 2 can either take down EKiller (if Player 1 stays in and goes for ESpeed or SD), or lose Yveltal to MGar and then get swept by EKiller.
While reward for guessing correctly (note: in this particular example) is only slightly higher for Player 1 (the reward for the correct move in this situation is taking down one of the opponent’s wincons), the overall risk he or she has to take is infinitely lower, so Player 2 does not have to worry much about making the “wrong” play. The risk for Player 2, on the other hand, is so high that it is essentially “guess incorrectly – you lose the match”.
A few things about this example, because I think it's important:
1) It's foolhardy to rely on just one Pokemon to check a threat as dangerous as EKiller. The point is that if EKiller sets up, standard revenge killing does not work. Therefore this is one of those threats to which I think one should have at least two checks to (off the top of my heads the other common ones are Mega Blaziken and Xerneas - i.e. deadly sweepers that can OHKO much of the metagame after setting up, and can boost their speed or have priority).
2) Perhaps unwittingly you've actually mentioned a team with multiple checks to EKiller. The second check here is Scizor, since it resists Extremespeed and has priority. This means that even if Yveltal gets trapped by Mega Gengar, as long as player 2 attacks EKiller hard the turn it sets up, he will be able to revenge it with Scizor.
3) You assume Gengar is already mega evolved, and it did so without taking any damage whatsoever hence not OHKOed by Foul Play, and you assume no hazards on the field. This is all a big deal.
4) Note that because of the need for Gengar to mega evolve, you cannot say "beginning turn 1". If Gengar weren't mega evolved in this example, Player 2 would be able to switch out of it the first time even if he predicts wrong and even if Foul Play does not OHKO.
I actually think Player 2 is favoured in this situation, not Player 1.
My paragraphs if anyone wants a relatively comprehensive summary of my position (minus "WE DON'T BAN SHIT FROM UBERS"):
Don't ban
So, I've probably been one of the more outspoken anti-ban players, and I'm pretty most people know what my arguments are, so I'll just summarise my points. These are mostly to refute pro-ban arguments, which is pretty much what I need to do since the burden of proof should be with those arguing for a ban. Also, I'm going to address Shadow Tag and Mega Gengar at the same time since they follow very similar reasoning. So, the main arguments of the pro-ban camp are (minus the dumb arguments like "Mega Gengar makes stall cry"):
Mega Gengar (and Shadow Tag) removes the choice to switch:
Probably the argument most people are going with. I've highlighted why this does not make it uncompetitive and ban-worthy because while yes, it does remove your choice of switching for 1-2 turns (which is what I mostly experienced), this is not enough to invalidate every other choice that you've made in a game. In short, if someone beats you by using Shadow Tag to remove an important Pokemon and sweeping with its counter removed, that "choice of switching" in which you were denied was one turn in a larger scheme of a game. Just because you've got a key Pokemon trapped does not mean you've automatically lost the game. I think my post here in response to Dice explains what I mean. Yes, Shadow Tag takes away your choice to switch for 1-2 turns and puts you at a great disadvantage because of it. However, just because it increases someone's chances of winning does not mean it is causative for that person's win. Plenty of things can happen (minus hax and choking) between a successful trapping from Mega Gengar and a successful execution of whatever strategy that Mega Gengar has made it easier for (secondary checks, getting outpredicted, counter-sweep, etc).
Also, just a smaller note, just because Mega Gengar has prevented the Pokemon from switching, does not mean it can actually get rid of whatever Pokemon that it's there to remove either. You still have Taunt/Destiny Bond 50/50s (which are no different from choosing your Ground or your Fairy against Zekrom, for example), Shed Shell on select Pokemon, VoltTurn/Baton Pass, Dragon Tail, or Pokemon that simply don't care (Ghosts, MMY, Deo-A, etc). This is not to mention that for the case of Mega Gengar, it needs to Mega evolve to even get Shadow Tag, and that one turn can be incredibly precious. If you team is used in a way that Gengar cannot even mega evolve without risk of getting killed, then it's pretty much a non-threat.
Mega Gengar creates 50/50s in switches because people are afraid to switch their important checks:
I'm outlined in depth why this argument is flawed. Basically, there is nothing fundamentally different between the 50/50s that Shadow Tag brings to the table and other 50/50s that occur in the game already, for example Specs Reshiram's Blue Flare vs Groudon - do you switch to your Steel/Fairy and get trashed by BLue Flare or do you switch in Palkia to get trashed by Draco Meteor. Fundamentally, there is no difference apart from the timing of the 50/50, since both 50/50s would yield a dead Pokemon if you chose the wrong switch. The other problem with the 50/50 argument is again, the fact that there is no causative relationship between that Shadow Tag 50/50 and the result of the game, even if the correlation is greater due to increased odds.
My thoughts:
I think the biggest problem with pro-ban arguments is that they are confusing what happens in a single (or multiple) turns and what happens overall in a game. If we compare with the rest of the other clauses that we've banned for being uncompetitive, a recurring theme is that what happens is because of the uncompetitive factor, things accumulate and causatively influence the outcome of a game in the favour of the person using it. It's a bit hard to say in one sentence, but I'll explain what I mean. Also, luck is a big factor in pretty much every ban we've had, even though it is not the core issue of why we banned it. I'll basically go through the individual clauses (apart from Species) and explain why Shadow Tag is different:
OHKO Clause:
Basically a luck-centred ban. What the argument is that a "switch" to a counter can be rendered null because of a 30% chance that the Pokemon is killed. Again, it revolves around a coin flip. However, what I believe is the real uncompetitive part of OHKO Clause is that you can win a game purely on these coinflips. A Scarf Kyogre can waltz in and spam Sheer Cold and win the game just by doing that alone (trust me, I've seen it happen a few times). The fact that you can get a counter removed for another Pokemon by baiting in the counter and winning a 30/70 coinflip was not the thing that made OHKO truly broken. If it was just that one counter, it's a similar position to Shadow Tag. You can still go on without that counter. You cannot win, however, if you lady luck hated you and had Sheer Cold hit you too many times in which you were essentially "lucked out".
Moody/Swagger Clause:
Again, a luck-centred ban. It is the accumulation of multiple turns of luck that makes you lose a game, not just a Pokemon. See what the difference between this and Shadow Tag is? With Moody and Swagger, you lose because essentially you are playing with coinflips only, and therefore ALL decisions made in the game (or a large percentage) are rendered moot by luck, while Shadow Tag only restricts you to ONE decision (or maybe 2-3 or slightly more, but is nowhere near in the scale of Moody/Swagger).
(We used to have and we should still have) Evasion Clause: See Moody/Swagger
Sleep Clause:
Probably the one closest to Shadow Tag in the sense that it's not purely a luck ban. I still stand to reason that luck very much underlines a lot of why sleep is broken (see here). It's a long tl;dr, but the main points are still again, 1) sleep has major elements (Sleep Talk is random, sleep counter is random, speed-ties and accuracy if you take away Sleep Talk and sleep counter), and 2) Sleep was strong because it could disable everything on your team. Unlike Shadow Tag which traps and usually removes 1 Pokemon a game, Sleep disables every Pokemon. So, Shadow Tag is focused, while sleep is more "global" in terms of a game. Again bring back to what I was talking about before, the difference is ST affects a few select turns and decisions, while Sleep affects all or a large majority of turns and decisions. THAT is what makes Sleep uncompetitive and what makes ST not.
Species Clause: Really don't know why we have Species Clause apart from the fact that make sure the game isn't weird af, but I can't see any competitive/uncompetitive reason
Endless Battle Clause: Like nuclear weapons, Endless Battle is kind of like a situation where no-one wins, and therefore that completely contradicts the meaning of the word "competitive"
Other things to bring up:
- Shadow Tag removing things is not something new at all. We have had trapping ever since gen 2, and it really took off in gen 4. However, there have been no problems with it since now. We had Magnet Pull/Arena Trap/Pursuit in OU/UU, and Wobbuffet in DPP was arguably even better at taking down threats than Mega Gengar or Gothitelle in XY because unlike Mega Gengar, it did not need to mega evolve, nor could you see that it was coming because there was no team preview. There may have been some whispers about wanting to ban Wobbuffet back in gen 4, but the overwhelming consensus was that it was not uncompetitive in gen 4. I know people are arguing that Mega Gengar is far more versatile than Wobbuffet back then, but in terms of actual ability to take down its threats and create opportunities for teammates, I really think that Wobbuffet was around the same level, if not better. If we didn't ban Wobbuffet back then, then I see no reason to ban Mega Gengar now.
- Reciprocity - you can also trap your opponent's key Pokemon with Shadow Tag. So, in the end, the one who actually executes his strategy first (ie the one who played better) is still the one who wins. I think that's still competitive. You might say that that would mean the game would revolve around Shadow Tag, and if that is the case, why does it matter? This is an overcentralisation argument, not one for "uncompetitive". The metagame revolves around Xerneas and Arceus and Kyogre and other threats. Why should Shadow Tag be treated differently?
- Reciprocity - you can also trap your opponent's key Pokemon with Shadow Tag. So, in the end, the one who actually executes his strategy first (ie the one who played better) is still the one who wins. I think that's still competitive. You might say that that would mean the game would revolve around Shadow Tag, and if that is the case, why does it matter? This is an overcentralisation argument, not one for "uncompetitive". The metagame revolves around Xerneas and Arceus and Kyogre and other threats. Why should Shadow Tag be treated differently?
Just a note how since trapping requires killing your opponent's pokemon, it can introduce game situations where whoever loses a pokemon first loses.
Mega Gengar creates 50/50s in switches because people are afraid to switch their important checks:
I'm outlined in depth why this argument is flawed. Basically, there is nothing fundamentally different between the 50/50s that Shadow Tag brings to the table and other 50/50s that occur in the game already, for example Specs Reshiram's Blue Flare vs Groudon - do you switch to your Steel/Fairy and get trashed by BLue Flare or do you switch in Palkia to get trashed by Draco Meteor. Fundamentally, there is no difference apart from the timing of the 50/50, since both 50/50s would yield a dead Pokemon if you chose the wrong switch. The other problem with the 50/50 argument is again, the fact that there is no causative relationship between that Shadow Tag 50/50 and the result of the game, even if the correlation is greater due to increased odds.
I don't understand why this isn't stressed enough. Whether you like it or not you are going to encounter 50/50's. They are part of the game. For new players coming into this test unsure about what you should vote, think about the last major tournament match you spectated. During the end of the game what was the most common phrase mentioned? Likely something like "50/50". Removing Mega Gengar is only going to do so much regarding the removal of 50/50's, but honestly, if that's your major problem with it, why were you not vocal about Wobbuffet in the past? When playing Wobb you need to question whether your opponent is going to Encore or attack, so you are just as likely to lose a mon to Wobb as you are to Mega Gengar. You can't really say Mega Gengar is much different because it has an actual attack stat, since if anything that gives you a better opportunity to beat it one-on-one. Gengar hits hard, yes. But not nearly as hard as most other threats. Gengar makes other mons useless, yes, but so do plenty of other mons in Ubers.
I would encourage you all to read shrang's full post that I am quoting as he outlined many similar ideas that I have a well. I'd also like to ask all of you that are unsure of your vote to think about what the Ubers tier really is. Put aside what would you believe will make the metagame more "fun" and focus on the facts of the Ubers tier. We are not a stronger OU. Please do not let this tier turn into one.
I would also like to encourage all of you who are unsure of your vote to not worry about this. This isn't going to happen. Testing Gengarite (and STAG) is an exception to the norm, an extraordinary circumstance and NOT the new standard, and we have made it clear that we have no plans to suspect anything like Xerneas, etc. If you believe the philosophy of the Ubers tier should be that no Pokemon, Mega forme or otherwise, should be banned, that's fine. If you believe that it's okay to ban Gengarite/STAG because banning an uncompetitive element (move or ability or even a Pokemon) does not contradict the philosophy of Ubers, that is fine as well. What is not fine is believing that banning Gengarite (or STAG) will cause Ubers to run down the slippery slope to become OU, because that is not what we are trying to accomplish with this test.
Faint is right that Ubers is not a stronger OU nor should it be, but saying Ubers will become OU because of a Gengarite/STAG ban is fallacious because that's not going to happen.
I apologize if I took this statement too literally, but I don't want people to be confused on what we're trying to examine with this test.
Just a quick question, since we need a supermajority to ban Mega Gengar this time around (from the voting thread), if we only get a simple majority, do we do another round of Mega Gengar, or do we move straight onto Shadow Tag?
Yeah there are a lot of 50/50's in the game, but the ones shadow tag causes (against stall and balance mostly) can either make or break the game. That's the unhealthy element of shadow tag.
My paragraphs if anyone wants a relatively comprehensive summary of my position (minus "WE DON'T BAN SHIT FROM UBERS"):
Don't ban
So, I've probably been one of the more outspoken anti-ban players, and I'm pretty most people know what my arguments are, so I'll just summarise my points. These are mostly to refute pro-ban arguments, which is pretty much what I need to do since the burden of proof should be with those arguing for a ban. Also, I'm going to address Shadow Tag and Mega Gengar at the same time since they follow very similar reasoning. So, the main arguments of the pro-ban camp are (minus the dumb arguments like "Mega Gengar makes stall cry"):
Mega Gengar (and Shadow Tag) removes the choice to switch:
Probably the argument most people are going with. I've highlighted why this does not make it uncompetitive and ban-worthy because while yes, it does remove your choice of switching for 1-2 turns (which is what I mostly experienced), this is not enough to invalidate every other choice that you've made in a game. In short, if someone beats you by using Shadow Tag to remove an important Pokemon and sweeping with its counter removed, that "choice of switching" in which you were denied was one turn in a larger scheme of a game. Just because you've got a key Pokemon trapped does not mean you've automatically lost the game. I think my post here in response to Dice explains what I mean. Yes, Shadow Tag takes away your choice to switch for 1-2 turns and puts you at a great disadvantage because of it. However, just because it increases someone's chances of winning does not mean it is causative for that person's win. Plenty of things can happen (minus hax and choking) between a successful trapping from Mega Gengar and a successful execution of whatever strategy that Mega Gengar has made it easier for (secondary checks, getting outpredicted, counter-sweep, etc).
Also, just a smaller note, just because Mega Gengar has prevented the Pokemon from switching, does not mean it can actually get rid of whatever Pokemon that it's there to remove either. You still have Taunt/Destiny Bond 50/50s (which are no different from choosing your Ground or your Fairy against Zekrom, for example), Shed Shell on select Pokemon, VoltTurn/Baton Pass, Dragon Tail, or Pokemon that simply don't care (Ghosts, MMY, Deo-A, etc). This is not to mention that for the case of Mega Gengar, it needs to Mega evolve to even get Shadow Tag, and that one turn can be incredibly precious. If you team is used in a way that Gengar cannot even mega evolve without risk of getting killed, then it's pretty much a non-threat.
Mega Gengar creates 50/50s in switches because people are afraid to switch their important checks:
I'm outlined in depth why this argument is flawed. Basically, there is nothing fundamentally different between the 50/50s that Shadow Tag brings to the table and other 50/50s that occur in the game already, for example Specs Reshiram's Blue Flare vs Groudon - do you switch to your Steel/Fairy and get trashed by BLue Flare or do you switch in Palkia to get trashed by Draco Meteor. Fundamentally, there is no difference apart from the timing of the 50/50, since both 50/50s would yield a dead Pokemon if you chose the wrong switch. The other problem with the 50/50 argument is again, the fact that there is no causative relationship between that Shadow Tag 50/50 and the result of the game, even if the correlation is greater due to increased odds.
My thoughts:
I think the biggest problem with pro-ban arguments is that they are confusing what happens in a single (or multiple) turns and what happens overall in a game. If we compare with the rest of the other clauses that we've banned for being uncompetitive, a recurring theme is that what happens is because of the uncompetitive factor, things accumulate and causatively influence the outcome of a game in the favour of the person using it. It's a bit hard to say in one sentence, but I'll explain what I mean. Also, luck is a big factor in pretty much every ban we've had, even though it is not the core issue of why we banned it. I'll basically go through the individual clauses (apart from Species) and explain why Shadow Tag is different:
OHKO Clause:
Basically a luck-centred ban. What the argument is that a "switch" to a counter can be rendered null because of a 30% chance that the Pokemon is killed. Again, it revolves around a coin flip. However, what I believe is the real uncompetitive part of OHKO Clause is that you can win a game purely on these coinflips. A Scarf Kyogre can waltz in and spam Sheer Cold and win the game just by doing that alone (trust me, I've seen it happen a few times). The fact that you can get a counter removed for another Pokemon by baiting in the counter and winning a 30/70 coinflip was not the thing that made OHKO truly broken. If it was just that one counter, it's a similar position to Shadow Tag. You can still go on without that counter. You cannot win, however, if you lady luck hated you and had Sheer Cold hit you too many times in which you were essentially "lucked out".
Moody/Swagger Clause:
Again, a luck-centred ban. It is the accumulation of multiple turns of luck that makes you lose a game, not just a Pokemon. See what the difference between this and Shadow Tag is? With Moody and Swagger, you lose because essentially you are playing with coinflips only, and therefore ALL decisions made in the game (or a large percentage) are rendered moot by luck, while Shadow Tag only restricts you to ONE decision (or maybe 2-3 or slightly more, but is nowhere near in the scale of Moody/Swagger).
(We used to have and we should still have) Evasion Clause: See Moody/Swagger
Sleep Clause:
Probably the one closest to Shadow Tag in the sense that it's not purely a luck ban. I still stand to reason that luck very much underlines a lot of why sleep is broken (see here). It's a long tl;dr, but the main points are still again, 1) sleep has major elements (Sleep Talk is random, sleep counter is random, speed-ties and accuracy if you take away Sleep Talk and sleep counter), and 2) Sleep was strong because it could disable everything on your team. Unlike Shadow Tag which traps and usually removes 1 Pokemon a game, Sleep disables every Pokemon. So, Shadow Tag is focused, while sleep is more "global" in terms of a game. Again bring back to what I was talking about before, the difference is ST affects a few select turns and decisions, while Sleep affects all or a large majority of turns and decisions. THAT is what makes Sleep uncompetitive and what makes ST not.
Species Clause: Really don't know why we have Species Clause apart from the fact that make sure the game isn't weird af, but I can't see any competitive/uncompetitive reason
Endless Battle Clause: Like nuclear weapons, Endless Battle is kind of like a situation where no-one wins, and therefore that completely contradicts the meaning of the word "competitive"
Other things to bring up:
- Shadow Tag removing things is not something new at all. We have had trapping ever since gen 2, and it really took off in gen 4. However, there have been no problems with it since now. We had Magnet Pull/Arena Trap/Pursuit in OU/UU, and Wobbuffet in DPP was arguably even better at taking down threats than Mega Gengar or Gothitelle in XY because unlike Mega Gengar, it did not need to mega evolve, nor could you see that it was coming because there was no team preview. There may have been some whispers about wanting to ban Wobbuffet back in gen 4, but the overwhelming consensus was that it was not uncompetitive in gen 4. I know people are arguing that Mega Gengar is far more versatile than Wobbuffet back then, but in terms of actual ability to take down its threats and create opportunities for teammates, I really think that Wobbuffet was around the same level, if not better. If we didn't ban Wobbuffet back then, then I see no reason to ban Mega Gengar now.
- Reciprocity - you can also trap your opponent's key Pokemon with Shadow Tag. So, in the end, the one who actually executes his strategy first (ie the one who played better) is still the one who wins. I think that's still competitive. You might say that that would mean the game would revolve around Shadow Tag, and if that is the case, why does it matter? This is an overcentralisation argument, not one for "uncompetitive". The metagame revolves around Xerneas and Arceus and Kyogre and other threats. Why should Shadow Tag be treated differently?
Yes, yes you should. I think those paragraphs serve as a point that others can base their argument on. I mean, at least that's what I used that and several other posts throughout this thread for.
Cutting out the unimportant part out of my supect voting threat post, this is what my eventual thing looked like:
I've also seen people complain and discuss on how many threats gengar makes unviable and how that can dent the diversity of the ubers tier but to be honest I think it might not be such a bad idea. I'd like to see the tier change first and people actually using different sets because of the new threat instead of saying how, because their old arceus, blissey and chansey sets don't work anymore, gengar-mega must banned. I am personally a fan of using different playstyles but I'd rather have some of these playstyles become less viable than to start banning stuff from ubers. And maybe one of my strongest points for not banning the ghost and/or shadow tag is that the strategic element it gives actually feels like a lot of fun to me which I believe should be the main purpose of pokemon battles.
There'll be another round of Gengar if only simple majority. The time for the suspect testing period will obviously be shortened as a result.
Paragraphs don't need to be limited to a strict single paragraph. In general, don't worry about this part of the vote, just focus on making your voting reasons clear. We aren't looking to trap you or waste your time doing extra work. If you can explain yourself properly in a couple sentences instead of a couple paragraphs or vice versa, that's perfectly fine.
