np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]

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Ernesto

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See, what I don't understand about the "It's not a complex ban because it's broken on 100% of its users" is: hypothetically, if Smeargle hadn't been banned because QDPass and SmashPass were not enough to push it, would that make V-create not broken because it's only so on 50% of its users? If the answer is yes, wouldn't that make the ban actually complex, and it's not currently so by mere circumstance? I find that position hard to defend, really. Now if you said V-create is uncompetitive (I disagree with this), it'd be a different scenario.
I'm not even opposed to complex bans per se, but trying to mask this one as a simple ban just because everyone thinks complex banning = heresy is lying to yourselves, imo. No offense meant.

And although I hate the expression "slippery slope" (I think it and overrated should be banned from the English language), I have to ask this: in the theorical (and by that I mean unlikely) case that Victini was proven broken because of Bolt Strike and/or Blue Flare, 1) Would you ban Victini as a whole or the moves, since they're broken on 100% of the users, and 2) If you attempted the first option, how would you qualm the masses asking for a BS / BF ban because you've already set the precedent?
I understand Victini being broken without V-create is less likely than Victini dropping to RU—unless the rodent lovers can keep its usage up—since both the CB and the mixed sets are handled fine by dedicated physical walls, and Tini isn't much better against offense (although not being at -1 on the RK makes Pursuit games much more of a 50/50 than before), but I still think these concerns should be addressed before giving more thought into banning V-create. I'm not trying to be a smartass by arguing these points and I don't doubt anyone can come and say I'm completely off base (it wouldn't be the first time), it's just that I think what RT said about V-create being a scapegoat to try and keep Tini (I can't blame you, it's a disgustingly cute rodent) is precisely on point, and due to that I wanna see how you pro V-create ban guys defend their position. Always with respect, obviously.

Edit: I'm not even entirely sold that Victini is broken, either. I have yet to define which side of the line it sits, since you can't totally dismiss the SR and Pursuit weaknesses, but neither can you say those alone are enough to keep it, considering hazard removal is easy and we can't really advise every team to run one of CB Duggy / Pursuit user just for Tini.
 
Personally, I wouldn't use Victini without V-Create. Flare Blitz is still a viable move on Victini, but it really does nerf the mixed set. Victini relies on the raw power of V-Create to get passed bulky special walls, such as Florges, Blissey, and Umbreon.

The mixed set is designed to take out very specific threats, such as Gastrodon/Vap for CroCune, while being able to 2hk huge special threats such as Florges that think they can wall the special set.

Without V-Create, Victini is really nerfed imo (just imo).

Personally, I think Victini punishes players that play very obviously, which is good for the meta. I don't think a meta where you have defined hard-counters is the best type of meta. The inability to get a fire type to go through the likes of gastro and pert simply ruins the meta. That means a player would need something like a celebi to take care of those, but then those are hard walled by something as well, which is lame. There should be a level of prediction. Basically, Victini is an Infernape with lower speed, better bulk, and equal move pool (infer has viable special/physical boosting sets, priority, and neutrality to sr, and resistance to dark).

I can't see people struggling with Victini if they don't struggle against Infernape sets.

imo
 

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
Just because V-Create is only usable on Victini and V-Create contributes to Victini being potentially broken does not mean that V-Create is the sole reason Victini is broken, nor does it mean that the solution is to eliminate it. There are several reasons why saying "it's a v-create ban, not a victini ban" is faulty.

1. The express purpose of the ban is not to eliminate the gameplay mechanic or playstyle created from the use of V-Create, but rather to nerf Victini to a point where it would be usable. The same argument of "it's a (move ban), not a Victini ban" could be applied to Blue Flare or Bolt Strike, as the only Pokemon who can use these moves in UU is Victini.

2. As its express purpose is to nerf Victini, it implies that banning V-Create is the optimal way to balance Victini, when this is not the case. There are numerous factors that lead to Victini's viability in the tier - it's the only offensive fire with a really great move to hit bulky waters, it gets U-turn, it has a great "support" move in Trick, it has the ability to go mixed...why do we single out V-Create and say that it's the sole factor that pushes Victini over the "edge" and makes it broken?

3. There is absolutely nothing about V-create that is uncompetitive. It's very easy to point to the high BP and freak out, but the entire fucking design of Victini revolves around using high - BP, mid-accuracy moves to transcend its mediocre offensive stats and deal massive damage. Just look at its two other signature moves - Bolt Strike provides a nearly 100% accurate, 130 BP move with no negative side effects and a paralysis chance just short of scald's burn chance. Blue flare is near the power of Overheat, with no negative side effects and a burn chance just short of scald. These are not your standard coverage / move options, and among these, V-Create really doesn't seem all too ridiculous anymore. It's high BP, yes, but it has crippling side effects. It's only slightly stronger than Darmanitan's Flare Blitz - and the comparison is actually quite appropriate, at first glance, "omg no 180 BP darm sux", but Darmanitan has sky-high attack. If Victini didn't have its high BP moves, it would be underwhelming as hell - look at Raikou (who's 115, not 100). All of the wallbreakers in the tier either have ridiculously high stats that allow them to break through teams with normal moves (Chandelure, Darmanitan) or rely on abilities, boosting moves, or high BP moves to bolster their middling stats and turn them into powerhouses (Darmanitan's coverage, Nidoking, Victini, Shaymin). V-Create is not out of place, and suggesting that its BP inherently makes it broken ignores the larger context.

TL;DR -

It's a Victini nerf. No two ways about that. Nothing about V-Create is out of place or uncompetitive, picking on it is arbitrary and ignores Victini's complexity, and the precedent that intentionally nerfing a specific pokemon sets is not desirable.
 
So, Kitten Milk, do you think Victini is too good for the tier? Your argument works both ways lol. I can see that because of victini's average Spa (100) is boosted by its awesome moves (as is V-create), but I think that's what people are crying about.

Do you think it should stay?
 
I don't support a V-Create ban, and I think it's a little odd that people are seriously considering it. (Let's ignore the fact that everyone decided it was obviously Victini's versatility and unpredictably that made it broken a couple pages ago, suddenly V-Create is the deciding factor). A move ban should not be something that should casually considered without some serious debate going into it. V-Create is not an inherently broken move. A base 180 fire type move with no recoil or charge-up sounds good on paper, but it needs a number of factors to align. Namely stats, movepool, ability, and typing. If these things don't work in your favor, then V-Create wouldn't make a mon overpowered. If say, Swampert, Dugtrio, or Raikou got the move, then they wouldn't be broken. Unlike Double Team, or Swagger, which can ruin a game without much consideration for the user. We should be banning things that are broken and let the metagame develop naturally, not trying to sculpt the and guide it to what we think looks best. If that means Victini is banned, so be it. No half measures.
 

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
I don't personally find that Victini is overcentralizing, uncounterable, or unhealthy for the metagame, but I understand the position of those that do. I think arguing for Victini's ban is perfectly reasonable, although I don't agree with it, but I vehemently disagree with a V-Create ban for the reasons I've already listed.

On the topic of Victini's health as a metagame, its status as a offensive pokemon with decent defensive typing and capabilities should not be understated. Besides being a great Lucario check, it also discourages fighting (and, oddly, fire) spam in general. It's also one half of a strange balance of power with Hydreigon, in which without one, the other becomes far better (losing victini and using darm instead loses to hydra because 100 > 97 > 95, losing hydra means that victini loses a major offensive check). Many players have expressed their opinion on suspecting Lucario and even Hydreigon if victini were to leave the tier - and this may open up to even more bans, as both luc and hydra contribute significantly to the health of the meta as well.

These aren't reasons that Victini should stay, really, as one broken thing checking another isn't a great thing, but I do think these points need to be raised in light of the thread of discussion that seems to portray Victini as "unhealthy".
 
Ok, lemme break this down for all of you real quick.

Here is a list of all the things commonly used in UU that can take a V-Create (and by take I mean not get 2HKO'd).
Mega Ampharos (Physically Defensive)
Alomomola
Arcanine
Mega Blastoise
Chandelure
Diancie
Houndoom
Kingdra
Milotic
Quagsire
Rhyperior
Suicune
Swampert
Tentacruel
Vaporeon

Ok, now let's add Bolt Strike/Thunder and Energy Ball to this moveset
Mega Ampharos (Physically Defensive)


Well shit, Victini's V-create is sure looking a lot scarier when you consider the fact that every V-Create switch in is 2HKO'd by some form of coverage move right? Well that is exactly my point. The reason V-create looks so broken is the fact you're forgetting that it's also backed up by a 130 BP Electric-type move to hit Water-types and a 90 BP Grass-type move to maim the Water/Ground types that are quite abundant in the tier. So in my eyes (and it always has been this way) V-Create isn't the reason Victini is broken, hell Darmanitan has a STAB move that is just as powerful and doesn't force you to switch out every time you use it but is that considered broken? No, because it lacks the coverage to break through the would-be counters to V-Create.

If you couldn't tell I am opposed to the V-Create ban cause it runs along the same lines as 'release x mon if we ban y move on it', which if that was done, would make the tiering system more ridiculously confusing that it can already be at times :]

 
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One thing I think people tend to forget, is that after you switch in a mon to V-Create, Victini's speed is around 219 or 220 after the drops, so with minimal speed investment, you can easily knock out Victini if it proceeds to stay in and go for a coverage move.

I think people are kind of confusing all the benefits of Victini and slapping them all together. Not every victini has the speed of the scarf set, power of the banded set, and versatility of the mixed set. Pick your poison.
 
Now for Mienshao:

Here is a list of all the things commonly used in UU that can take a CB HJK and not get 2KOd
Aromatisse (2.3% chance, any prior damage, or a layer of spikes seals it)
Max/Max+ Celebi
Chandelure
Crobat
Froslass
Max/Max+ Nidoqueen
Sableye
Trevenant

Add Knock off and Stone Edge
Aromatisse*
Max/Max+ Nidoqueen

Wallbreakers hit hard. That's what they do. Simply hitting hard alone isn't enough to make something broken.
 
Both of your lists are wrong and misinformative, but at least Lochie was attempting to make a solid point. He was trying to demonstrate that V-create alone isn't banworthy. It's Victini's access to complementary coverage moves (hence why he brought up Bolt Strike and Energy Ball), above average speed tier, and great defenses for an offensive mon that make it the questionably bannable threat that it is. So we need to stop this nonsense about a V-Create ban and focus on Victini itself.

quit editting my post lochie nerd
 

Thisbemyalt

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Well if people do not believe a V create ban will solve the issue then I will have to say Tini goes BL. I used to think tini was a healthy UU mon but this forum has presented very clear and strongly supported reasons why tini should be banned. I will miss Tini but as so many of you have stated Tini is so versatile to the point that he has very few if any pure counters. He can be checked fairly easily but that does require a free switch in or good prediction which with Tini almost no mon is safe on switch in. I have always found tini beatable so I don't really understand why he took so long to be banned if he was thought to be broken by so many of you all this time(If someone could explain that would be great kinda new to forums).
 
Well if people do not believe a V create ban will solve the issue then I will have to say Tini goes BL. I used to think tini was a healthy UU mon but this forum has presented very clear and strongly supported reasons why tini should be banned. I will miss Tini but as so many of you have stated Tini is so versatile to the point that he has very few if any pure counters. He can be checked fairly easily but that does require a free switch in or good prediction which with Tini almost no mon is safe on switch in. I have always found tini beatable so I don't really understand why he took so long to be banned if he was thought to be broken by so many of you all this time(If someone could explain that would be great kinda new to forums).
I think Slowbro was the biggest tipping point for many since Slowbro was arguably the best check available thanks to Regenerator allowing him to act as a relatively safe scout to what set Tini was using. That said I think Victini just had it long overdue, just that clearly there are viable ways of checking him or playing around him intelligently. Frankly, I find the Victini ban to be akin to say the Aegislash ban in that it can go both ways since I do feel arguments for both sides of the coin can be made, and with validity. Put another way this I find is definitely a hard suspect test.
 
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Machi that is absolutely correct regarding Slowbro. Slowbro was one of the few pokes that could easily tank a VC or BS and switch out relatively intact thanks to regenerator. Alo is probably the closest thing to Bro in that sense. But, alo has that really pitiful 45 sp def and average 80 def. The only thing that really allows alo to shine is that 165 HP and low weight (weak grass knot). But, it can be maimed by Thunder or Energy Ball, which Tini has and can abuse.

UU ALL DAY the problem is that Tini can run all those sets effectively (more so Banded and LO, but scarf is entirely viable as it allows it to Uturn out on its usual scarf check in hydre). From what i saw, people are focusing more on CB set in particular, but must keep mixed Tini in mind since it allowsit to beat its usual checks.

Regarding Ape and Mew comparisons, i think its important tonote a few things.
1. Mew doesnt have 120+ base power moves that can be spammed (FB, BS, VC, etc..). Ape only has FB (flare blitz and fire blast) and CC. its strongest coverage against waters is a base 75 thunder punch, backed by a 20% increase thanks to Iron Fist. Mew also lacks this, which doesnt compare to Tinis Base 130 Bolt Strike.
2. Mew cannot 2hko the UU tier with just a choice item, which completely separates it from Tini.it needs to boost in order to clean up or sweep.
3. Mew is also prone to burn, which dtops the sweep almost immediately.
4. Ape is so much frailer. It takes almost 30% more damage from adamant lucarios unboosted espeed than victini.
 
U-Turn is another huge reason for Victini's brokenness. It's hard to keep your "counters" healthy enough to take those V-Create nukes when Victini is constantly stealing your momentum.

When Victini comes in, this is what happens

-You have to sacrifice something. Hilariously, this is actually the best case scenario because you can bring something in at full health and threaten it out.
-Your wall takes a shit load of damage and they get a free switch into whatever
-You get U-Turn'd and forced into another bad match up

Basically, the Victini user is always at an advantage. It's always been broken in my opinion, but with Slowbro's departure there can be no argument.
 

dingbat

snek
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My two cents on Victini:

Out of all the viable 'mons that avoid a 2hko from [Choice Banded] V-Create, basically none of them can take any of Tini's potential coverage moves. Send in Swampert on a V-Create? Get popped by an Energy Ball. Alomomola/Suicune? Get bopped by Bolt Strike, or better yet, get ruse by Trick. Switch in Chandelure at the wrong time? Eat a solid 55%/80% from Bolt Strike. Arcanine? ...Gah fine, you can have that. Of course, this is obvious shit about its power and versatility and lack of [consistent] counters that's been stated 1000x over throughout the UU metagame, but there's definitely more to this.

Sure, Victini can be easily revenge killed by something that's faster and, in some cases, can trap it (examples: Dugtrio or Aerodactyl) but most of the time after it has been RK'd, it probably already punched its fiery ass nuke through a portion of the opponent's team, if that's an accurate statement. There are certainly other 'mons like Lucario and such that can come in and do the same thing, but the thing is, Victini can come in at pretty much any point of the battle and proceed to potentially blow up something, due to the combination of speed and bulk that no other wallbreaker shares with Tini.

Lost my train of thought here :/ oh well
 

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
I think it would be remorse of us to highlight Victini's strengths without also showcasing some of its less apparent weaknesses. I'll start off -

1. With correct prediction, Victini's damage is easily eliminated entirely.

This may sound rather stupid, and yes, it does rely on a level of "skill" or "luck" that is not something you can apply to every situation. However, all of Victini's main moves bar U-turn are very easily punishable by pokemon who are immune to it - for V-create, try Chandelure, Mega-Houndoom, or lolFFArcanine, for Bolt Strike, Ground types and random lr mons, and for zen headbutt, dark types. (same obv goes for thunder / blue flare / psyshock). This makes Victini a very high-risk high-reward Pokemon to use - if you don't correctly predict while using it, you can easily give up free turns. The same is seen in Mienshao's HJK, which is heavily punishable by ghosts - even though they can't 100% safely switch in due to Knock Off.

2. After it blows something up, Victini is prone to being RK'd - and if it switches out, you have to find something to take the incredibly powerful hit that's coming next. This can not be applied to all nukes / sweepers for the reason listed below.

This explanation will somewhat rely on a bit of a generalization. Offensive Pokemon who are slower tend to be slightly stronger to make up for it (see: Band Swamp, Lucario, Chandelure...). As such, they are a lot more threatening when given a free turn. Victini's unique STAB in V-Create, which significantly cuts its speed, allows slower but super powerful pokemon to come in and threaten your team. This happens in a way that isn't analogous when using something like LO Mienshao, which retains its great 105 Spe after clicking its strongest move. Victini's dropped defensive and speed stats also makes it more vulnerable to pursuit trapping.

3. Victini is easily worn down.

Some of Victini's best defensive checks commonly run Rocky Helmet, which compounds with Victini's groundedness and weakness to Stealth Rocks to wear it down quite quickly. It's no LO Darmanitan, of course, but that great bulk doesn't always come in handy when you're taking huge chunks of your HP every time you go in. Victini does need significant team support in this manner, and often comes off as more overpowered than it is due to its visibility as the thing that blows shit up.
 
^ adding on to this, I think that just having to play around a pokemon doesn't mean it's completely broken. Obviously certain mons are not going to have dedicated switchins, but because they are choiced, can be played around with proper prediction. A lot of people are complaining about "victini is broken, it has no safe switchins, can kill everything with the right move" but as much of the tier is about predicting and playing well to win matches than teambuilding, and if you don't carry a bulky water + a ground type then that's your fault, but you better be a good enough player to not blindly switch in a suicune on a victini. Yes it has insane coverage, but without band it's not as much of a "nuke" as before and fails to get important bolt strike KO's, and with a band it can be played around.

tl;dr: play around victini and you will find that it is not as broken as is it apparently made out to be.
 
U-Turn is another huge reason for Victini's brokenness. It's hard to keep your "counters" healthy enough to take those V-Create nukes when Victini is constantly stealing your momentum.

When Victini comes in, this is what happens

-You have to sacrifice something. Hilariously, this is actually the best case scenario because you can bring something in at full health and threaten it out.
-Your wall takes a shit load of damage and they get a free switch into whatever
-You get U-Turn'd and forced into another bad match up

Basically, the Victini user is always at an advantage. It's always been broken in my opinion, but with Slowbro's departure there can be no argument.
By that logic, anything with Volt Switch or U-Turn could be broken since it is free momentum. Having access to U-Turn is a perk, not something that makes it inherently broken. Every time a Victini comes in on the field, you do not lose a pokemon outright. The whole argument for Victini staying is that it takes scouting for figure out what set it is. If a V-Create is doing 35% to a Swampert, I do not expect the Energy ball. If U-turn is doing 6% to my Suicine, I know that it doesn't have investment in Attack.

Jesus, I do not see the point of having a damage calc if no one even bothers to run a quick calc, or even remember damage outputs from commonly seen mons. If I see Mienshao doing 35% to my Suicine with HJK, I know it's Regen, if it's doing upwards of 45%, I know it's reckless.

Having knowledge of the Metagame is what is important. Like Kitten Milk says, using Victini is high risk high reward. If you predict wrong, and for example, click Energy Ball predicting the enemy Swampert to come on your current Roserade, when the enemy ends up switching to Mega-Aero, you aren't exactly in the best of positions.
 
By that logic, anything with Volt Switch or U-Turn could be broken since it is free momentum. Having access to U-Turn is a perk, not something that makes it inherently broken. Every time a Victini comes in on the field, you do not lose a pokemon outright. The whole argument for Victini staying is that it takes scouting for figure out what set it is. If a V-Create is doing 35% to a Swampert, I do not expect the Energy ball. If U-turn is doing 6% to my Suicine, I know that it doesn't have investment in Attack.

Jesus, I do not see the point of having a damage calc if no one even bothers to run a quick calc, or even remember damage outputs from commonly seen mons. If I see Mienshao doing 35% to my Suicine with HJK, I know it's Regen, if it's doing upwards of 45%, I know it's reckless.

Having knowledge of the Metagame is what is important. Like Kitten Milk says, using Victini is high risk high reward. If you predict wrong, and for example, click Energy Ball predicting the enemy Swampert to come on your current Roserade, when the enemy ends up switching to Mega-Aero, you aren't exactly in the best of positions.
It's the threat of V-Create and potential Scarf/Band that makes U-Turn so potent on Victini. It forces switches better than any other Pokemon in the tier, and in turn, is better at gaining momentum than other VoltTurn abusers.

And once you figure out the set it's no less a pain to deal with.
 
It's the threat of V-Create and potential Scarf/Band that makes U-Turn so potent on Victini. It forces switches better than any other Pokemon in the tier, and in turn, is better at gaining momentum than other VoltTurn abusers.

And once you figure out the set it's no less a pain to deal with.
VoltTurn as a move is not broken. Generally, anything that gets it will use it effectively for the most part (turn + regenerator on shao, slow volt switches from mega amphy and forry, Volt switch from.Rotom, especially Mow since ground types wont switch in as quickly).

Its a perk of gaining momentum, thats all.
 
^ adding on to this, I think that just having to play around a pokemon doesn't mean it's completely broken. Obviously certain mons are not going to have dedicated switchins, but because they are choiced, can be played around with proper prediction. A lot of people are complaining about "victini is broken, it has no safe switchins, can kill everything with the right move" but as much of the tier is about predicting and playing well to win matches than teambuilding, and if you don't carry a bulky water + a ground type then that's your fault, but you better be a good enough player to not blindly switch in a suicune on a victini. Yes it has insane coverage, but without band it's not as much of a "nuke" as before and fails to get important bolt strike KO's, and with a band it can be played around.

tl;dr: play around victini and you will find that it is not as broken as is it apparently made out to be.
Your logic is flawed here. Most mons you can beat if you play around them the right way! Not only that, but saying "if you don't carry a bulky water + ground type then it's your fault" is more of proof of Tini limiting teambuilding then it is of victini not being broken/overcentralizing.
 
^ adding on to this, I think that just having to play around a pokemon doesn't mean it's completely broken. Obviously certain mons are not going to have dedicated switchins, but because they are choiced, can be played around with proper prediction. A lot of people are complaining about "victini is broken, it has no safe switchins, can kill everything with the right move" but as much of the tier is about predicting and playing well to win matches than teambuilding, and if you don't carry a bulky water + a ground type then that's your fault, but you better be a good enough player to not blindly switch in a suicune on a victini. Yes it has insane coverage, but without band it's not as much of a "nuke" as before and fails to get important bolt strike KO's, and with a band it can be played around.

tl;dr: play around victini and you will find that it is not as broken as is it apparently made out to be.
LO Victini is just as much of a threat of CB Tini and it can switch moves. I dont think its just matter of playing around it. You literally either need to outpredict your opponent (especially on VC and BS coverage) and wait for its attack to happen before you can do anything. Victini is most vulnerable after 1. A mispredicted VC (switch in to Swampy, Chandy, etc..) or 2. After it KOs something. At that point, you can bring in the usual check (especially due to the speed and defense drops) whether its pursuit Snorlax, Mega Aero or scarfer like Hydreigon. Everything you do is in response to Victini. You wait for it to attack and then you respond. You may have the upper hand after it attacks, but there is literally nothing you can do to stop that cycle. Victini Attacks (hit or miss with KOing a poke), opponent is able to respond.

So, to sum it all up, you dont play around Victini, you react to Victini, which are different. Reacting to Victini is not the way to play. Youll notice that in the upper ladder, Victini is more LO than CB. Why do you think this is? It forces the opponent to react to a choiceless Victini, which still hits hard and is very possibly mixed, leaving the Victini player with the upper hand most of the match. So, a good player with Victini will generally have the upper hand most of the time over a player without Victini. People in the lower ladder spam CB because its easy and they play Tini recklessly, imo. This reckless playing is why you get the impression that it can be played around so easily.
 
Machi that is absolutely correct regarding Slowbro. Slowbro was one of the few pokes that could easily tank a VC or BS and switch out relatively intact thanks to regenerator. Alo is probably the closest thing to Bro in that sense. But, alo has that really pitiful 45 sp def and average 80 def. The only thing that really allows alo to shine is that 165 HP and low weight (weak grass knot). But, it can be maimed by Thunder or Energy Ball, which Tini has and can abuse.

UU ALL DAY the problem is that Tini can run all those sets effectively (more so Banded and LO, but scarf is entirely viable as it allows it to Uturn out on its usual scarf check in hydre). From what i saw, people are focusing more on CB set in particular, but must keep mixed Tini in mind since it allowsit to beat its usual checks.

Regarding Ape and Mew comparisons, i think its important tonote a few things.
1. Mew doesnt have 120+ base power moves that can be spammed (FB, BS, VC, etc..). Ape only has FB (flare blitz and fire blast) and CC. its strongest coverage against waters is a base 75 thunder punch, backed by a 20% increase thanks to Iron Fist. Mew also lacks this, which doesnt compare to Tinis Base 130 Bolt Strike.
2. Mew cannot 2hko the UU tier with just a choice item, which completely separates it from Tini.it needs to boost in order to clean up or sweep.
3. Mew is also prone to burn, which dtops the sweep almost immediately.
4. Ape is so much frailer. It takes almost 30% more damage from adamant lucarios unboosted espeed than victini.
mate you obviously do not know that infernape runs Grass Knot for coverage not some bogus ass thunder punch (not gen4 ou no gyarados fren) obviously infernape cannot compare to victinis v-create and outstanding ability + coverage, but it serves as a devastating mixed attacker breaking apart common wall cores so yah it has its uses
 
mate you obviously do not know that infernape runs Grass Knot for coverage not some bogus ass thunder punch (not gen4 ou no gyarados fren) obviously infernape cannot compare to victinis v-create and outstanding ability + coverage, but it serves as a devastating mixed attacker breaking apart common wall cores so yah it has its uses
So, youre agreeing with my point that Victini has outstanding coverage that doesnt necessarily overshadow Ape (base 108 speed and access to priority is a great boon for Ape), but as a mixed attacker Tini is More of a threat since it can spam.high BP coverage moves from both ends of the spectrum. Im not downplaying Ape at all, its just Tini has higher BP coberage moves for example..

252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 182-216 (38.5 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 182-216 (38.5 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

While in comparison...

252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 294-348 (62.2 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Victini Bolt Strike vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 255-302 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Life Orb Victini Energy Ball vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 211-250 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Thats barely invested MixTini and its still doing more damage than a fully invested Ape. Ape is good, very good, but Tini hits harder than Ape.

By the way, Gen Iv Ape didnt have Iron Fist, so its a completely viable option on SD punching sets (mixed np is better IMO though). It makes TPunch a base 90 attack.butm im not here to argue Ape.
 
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