Metagame NP: ZU Stage 1 - Introduction - Ludicolo Banned @63

[5gen]

After months and months of waiting, ZU has finally entered beta and received a ladder on Pokemon Showdown! We lost a lot of Pokemon from alpha in these tier shifts: Silvally-Dark, Gothitelle, Meowstic, Silvally-Fighting, Palpitoad, and Vibrava, and gained Thievul and Trapinch (no Arena Trap). This is a massive shakeup and our metagame has lost a few notable Pokemon without gaining much in return. Subsequently, the ZU council will actively discuss the metagame and analyze potentially ban worthy elements as the metagame settles down. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the metagame, so feel free to post your opinions, thoughts, sets, teams, and so forth. Please do not post one-liners or posts that do not contribute to healthy discussion because I will delete them.

Tier Shifts:
Rises: Rock
Drops: :farfetch

ZU council

5gen Aaronboyer DurzaOffTopic Ho3nConfirm3d Union Caboche

New Stuff Compendium

Teleport

Psychic Terrain, Stored Power, Teleport
Rising Voltage
Scorching Sands
Body Press
Grassy Terrain
Flip Turn, Scale Shot
Flip Turn
Flip Turn, Teleport
Teleport


Flip Turn
Meteor Beam
Scorching Sands
Poltergeist, Skitter Smack
Play Rough, Psychic Fangs
Grassy Glide
Scorching Sands


Lash Out, Scorching Sands, Skitter Smack
Grassy Glide
Skitter Smack
Lash Out
Burning Jealousy
Expanding Force

Rising Voltage, Steel Roller
Burning Jealousy
Close Combat
Dual Wingbeat

Misty Explosion
Misty Explosion
Flip Turn
Grassy Glide, Skitter Smack, Poltergeist
Grassy Glide, Dual Wingbeat
Flip Turn
Rising Voltage, Skitter Smack
Shore Up
Terrain Pulse, Expanding Force
Grassy Glide
Expanding Force
Burning Jealousy, Lash Out
Burning Jealousy. Lash Out
Rising Voltage
Steel Roller

I excluded unviable mons and mons that got moves they'd never run, all my judgement (i.e poliwhirl getting muddy water).

List of all legal NFEs (did not include broken ones such as Chansey, Porygon2, and Scyther): +sandshrew, +jigglypuff, +psyduck, +poliwag, +poliwhirl, +abra, +kadabra, +tentacool, +slowpoke, +magnemite, +exeggcute, +cubone, +lickitung, +tangela, +horsea, +seadra, +staryu, +porygon, +igglybuff, +marill, +whismur, +loudred, +carvanha, +azurill, +shinx, +luxio, +buneary, +happiny, +lillipup, +herdier, +venipede, +whirlipede, +petilil, +sandile, +krokorok, +zorua, +foongus, +mienfoo, +larvesta, +fletchling, +fletchinder, +skrelp, +clauncher, +rockruff, +fomantis, +sandygast, +sandshrew-alola

 

[Zach Parrott]

This shift is really huge. The loss of Silvally Dark/Fighting is really huge and lowers the power level of the tier by quite a decent chunk. Not only were they the best Silvally typings in the tier, but they were also great Knock Off absorbers because they resisted the attack. Looks like Silvally Electric and Silvally Grass will be the best Silvally types now, which I think is good and opens the door for much more reliable defensive counterplay (it's easier to resist Electric/Grass than to resist Dark/Fighting in this tier imo). As it stands mixed sets with Flamethrower will likely be a strong option for these guys (in order to hit some of the defensive grasses as well as Eiscue) should they want to continue to run Multi Attack. Out of all the Silvally forms though, these two were likely to be the ones to be more fully specially offensive, and I think there's a good chance that fully special sets will continue to shine.

Thievul looks to be quite threatening, having access to Psychic to get past a lot of its checks as well as the ability to boost both it's SpA and Spe at once with Throat Spray Snarl. Looks really good at the very least, hesitant to say any more than that.

Personally speaking, I hope the council takes a look at Eiscue and AVeil. Eiscue has emerged as one of the most dominant threats in the Alpha metagame, thanks to both a powerful Belly Drum set that can clean weakened teams or outright sweep unprepared ones, as well as a good defensive set that abuses Ice Face, Hail, Protect, and Sub in order to get a bunch of free chip damage off on the opponent. It's really annoying.

Veil on the other hand I feel is a bit more low key of a threat, what with the two best setup sweepers in the tier leaving, but I think it's still a huge issue. Not only do we have 6 other Silvally formes which can step up to the plate and take their place, but with the introduction of Thievul, as well as mons like Beartic, Hakamo-o, and Eiscue being readily available to abuse it, I think that it's potentially worth looking at.

 

[Negative Charge]

How does everyone deal with Machoke? I'm fairly new to this tier but it just seems like everything gets knocked down, how do I punish it?

 

[5gen]

How does everyone deal with Machoke? I'm fairly new to this tier but it just seems like everything gets knocked down, how do I punish it?

Hey. Machoke has two main sets in all out attacker and No Guard RestTalk. The all out attacker set usually runs Close Combat, Knock Off, EQ, and Bullet Punch/Ice Punch. Like you said, it does wear things down with Knock Off which makes it a pain for Eviolite users and Psychic-types. That being said, Psychic-types such as Oranguru, Silvally-Psychic, and Lunatone can all outspeed Machoke, threaten it with STAB attacks, and usually run Colbur Berry.

In terms of punishing Knock Off, not much outside of Gourgeist-XL, Pyukumuku, and defensive Solrock with Zen Headbutt can comfortably take on aoa Machoke. What you can take advantage of against AOA Machoke is how fast it gets worn down, so make sure you pack attackers such as Silvally formes, Specs Octillery, Specs Whiscash, Rufflet, Specs or LO Gastly, etc that can KO after it has been weakened. Conversely, RestTalk sets lack the coverage and power of AOA sets usually, which help make it easier to check those variants. Can also remove Machoke's Eviolite early with Linoone-G and Scraggy to make it easier to KO.

Basically, run faster Psychic-types when you can, use certain fat mons to pivot into Machoke, remove its Eviolite early, and/or have Pokemon that can hit it hard with powerful neutral attacks or with supereffective coverage/STAB attacks. Also side note, Eviolite mons such as Gloom, Togetic, Mudbray, Hippopotas, etc can still check it after taking Knock Off, but might lose to other attackers w/o their Eviolites.

 

[Ouragan2Neigee]

Hello magnificient people! it's my first post on a forum, so i'll try to make it fast.
This shift was a big shock for the meta by loosing good pokemons such as the two most popular and stronger silvallys, the meowstics and gothitelle.
to heal all of our broken hearts, i'll post a set and a review of thievul, the new dark-type who dropped with our boi trapinch.
I've seen this set a lot with sometimes minor changes to it, but I guess i'll go on and post it, alongside the review.

Thievul @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Substitute
- Psychic
- Nasty Plot

-Dark pulse for a good dark STAB.
-Substitute for giving a chance to Thievul to set up peacefully for at least one turn, since it's bulk isn't that great.
-Psychic to pass things like machoke, who can without it check successfully Thievul.
-Nasty Plot to make Thievul more dangerous, since w/o setuping, it dosen't sweep anything.
-Petaya Berry to give even more power to Thievul and at the same time triggering it's ability Unburden, making it the fastest pokemon in the meta.

-The problem with thievul is that it's being walled by Togetic, Vullaby, Scraggy and pretty much every single Dark-Type in the current meta, which makes it hard to play since those are common pokemons. I personally have success with Thievul in end-game, when only two or three pokemon are left on both side. Setuping Thievul in mid-game is very hard, since it's wall(s) are probably still alive. There is also a variant of Thievul with Throat Spray and Snarl, but it isn't as popular as the Petaya one.

-I think Thievul is a solid attacker and a good end-game sweeper, but it needs the support to have the job done. it can deal a lot of damage to most team but again, watchout for it's wall before setuping because once you're fully setuped, it's going to be hard to come back, setup and attempting to sweep again.


-Thievul fits nicely in a core that is made of Togetic-Klang-Thievul :
-Togetic protecting Thievul against Machoke and other fighting-type, and walling dark-type that don't stand a chance against it.
-Klang for checking Togetic, which is forced to switch out.
-Togetic and Klang are, even without Thievul, a nice core, by covering each other's weaknesses.

Here it was, hope you all enjoyed it!

Edit : Spelling

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

ZU Beta!!! With a New Ladder! Wooooooooooooo!

Here're are my condensed thoughts as Alpha is wrapped up, I've played enough of the ladder, and my first impressions of Beta have formed :)

The One New Mon and how to Use It

Thievul @ Throat Spray
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Snarl
- Psychic
- Dark Pulse

Thievul @ Sitrus Berry / Petaya Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute
- Psychic
- Dark Pulse

Alternative EVs 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe

Thievul is awesome for being another Dark-type for the meta, and a much healthier replacement to Silvally-Dark. From what I've observed, the sweeping sets seem to be the most effective, as the pivoting sets with U-turn / Parting Shot and Knock Off support are too underwhelming for its low Speed and lack of bulk. Instead, sweeping sets that take advantage of Unburden and about 3 viable items makes Thievul excel as a cleaner. 16 Spe allows it to be faster than Jolly Ice-Face Eiscue and Modest Oranguru, and after an Unburden boost Thievul is faster than Choice Scarf users like Ghastly, Lunatone, and Rufflet. The alternative EVs allows it to be faster than Choice Scarf Drakloak, although that usually isn't a concern for Thievul and it much rather have the bulk for setting up against walls like Mareanie and Gourgeist-Super.

The first set can function as a sweeper that can boost while attacking thanks to Throat Spray and Snarl. Snarl is nice as well for hitting through Subsitute, which allows Theivul to punish users like Eiscue, Oranguru, and Dusknoir (at least when it hits ;_;). Dark Pulse and Psychic is good enough coverage for the tier, hitting common Pokemon like the Silvallys, Machoke, Charjabug, Gloom, and more for neutral or super effective damage. The Substitute set can scout and set up Speed more passively, and can either go for Sitrus Berry or Petaya Berry depending on the team / purpose of Thievul. Thievul still needs opposing Dark-types and special walls like Galarian Linoone, Zweilous, Morgrem, and Togetic to be dealt with, and should have Toxic Spikes cleared so it doesn't get worn down to priority range. It's a great mon for teams as a special attacker and cleaner, and finds many opportunities to do its job.

Concerns

Silvally-Electric is still the only offensive Electric-type in the tier, and between its Swords Dance, Pivot, BoltBeam, and Mixed Attacker sets, there is little counterplay. Many teams have lacked a check to the right set, and coutnerplay even to the right set is limited. The STAB Electric-type Multi Attack is to be feared when it has the coverage in Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Flame Charge, and Psychic Fangs to deal with almost any switch-in. It goes above other Silvally forms because of its coevrage and limited weaknesses, and is easily supported by special wallbreakers and Toxic Spikes. I think there's still a lot of pressure for this mon that all remaining Silvally forms deal with, but Electric no doubt is the best above them all. I'd keep an eye out on how centralizing this mon makes the meta in beta and post-beta.

Mareanie, and maybe more accurately Toxic Spikes, are severely centralizing, and games against unprepared ladder teams show how dangerous they are if they go unchecked. There are a limited amount of absorbers in the tier, and Mareanie is easily the best thanks to being able to the set them itself; past Mareanie, only Gloom stands out from the other grounded Poison-type NFEs. Skrorupi, Ivysaur, and Neutralizing Gas Koffing are either very niche or limited to specific play styles. The only other prevent is Natu, which Mareanie can Knock Off and Gunk Shot to death easily. From there, common Defog users like Togetic and Vullaby hate taking Knock Off and Poison from Gunk Shott. The Silvally forms can take Knock Off fine but cannot switch into Toxic Spikes without jeopardizing their health, are at a severe disadvantage if they give up Defog anyways for one of their better coverage moves. This makes Tspikes super centralizing and by far the most threatening entry hazard in the tier, and that's not even to mention all the sweepers and walls that can be invalidated if Tspikes are on the field. This is largely because the huge list of vulnerable Pokemon, walls that rely on Eviolite instead of Leftovers for passive recovery, and Silvally forms that also have no passive recovery.

Is Mareanie the issue or are Tpsikes the issue? While Mareanie is the best setter, Skorupi and Koffing would still be more than viable in its place for setting Tspikes due to the inherent problems of this hazard. I'm not certain what the best course of action is on either these two aspects, and would love to have more discussion on them!

Teams:
Here are the teams I used on the ladder to success! Still a lot more to build and try, so have fun with these in the meantime.

Click On Sprites for Pokepaste!

Both teams utilize a core of Silvally-Grass, Mareanie, and Togetic. All three help cover eachothers offensive and defensive weaknesses, and anything missed typing-wise can be made up for from sheer bulk or offensive pressure. MareToge is awesome for good recovery options, Tspikes setting / absorbing, hazard removal, and for tanking physical and special hits. Special def Toge is near unbreakable by most special attackers, as even Tbolt Silvally-Electric cannot 2HKO when full special def. The spread here makes it faster than uninvested Machoke, just incase it starts to Knock Off and Heavy Slam. Silvally-Grass is another Ground- and resistance that can also somewhat switch into / check some Silvally-Electric sets. Its a great breaker and can wear down opposing defensive cores thanks to Rock Slide for Togetic, Torracat, and Vullaby.

The first team has NP Snarl Thievul as a cleaner and check to Subsitute users. All Out Attacker Dusknoir is awesome for its coverage and base 100 attack, which is really valuable in a meta like this. Colbur Berry and revenge are great for checking Thievul and Galarian Linoone, and Earthquake and Ice Punch hit super effective on a ton of the tier; only a few Pokemon like Oranguru, Pyukumuku, Whiscash, and some more are neutral to its coverage, and the rest of the team deal with those mons anyways. Shadow Sneak is also invaluable for its priority against faster Psychic- and Ghost-types, as well as frail sweepers like Eiscue and Wartortle. Hippo provides SR and a much needed phys wall + additional electricvally check, and phazing with Whirlwind when tspikes are up to Poison the opposing vally is a crazy good strat.

The other is a new hail team, as anyone who knows me knows I couldn't resist! Vulpix-a isn't special and often is a liability, so don't be afraid to sack it as a switch-in for momentum, or to spam Encore in the face of setup sweepers. Beartic's Ice- and Ground-type coverage more than suffices, and Aqua Jet is that priority that I believe every team (especially with Tpsikes) should have for picking off low health threats. Specs Glalie is a cool breaker for its coverage, and spamming Blizzard is awesome. The team is a lot more offensive, and despite the lack of type synergy of, count it, 3 mono Ice-types, it still likes the defensive core to pivot on hits and provide hazard support.

 

[Funbot28]

Great post Ho3n, I kinda want to echo some sentiments and thoughts I have on the ZU tier right now.

sets I love

Silvally-Electric @ Electric Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Grass Pledge / Ice Fang
- Flame Charge / U-Turn
- Swords Dance

Silvally-Electric @ Electric Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Parting Shot
- Flamethrower / Defog

I definitely feel that ElectricVally took the throne as the best offensive Vally form (heck maybe the best mon period in the tier) after DarkVally rose this most recent tier shift. SD sets + it's coverage really wreck most of the tier's most popular defensive cores with the most common one being Mareanie + Togetic. Grass + Fire coverage also helps annoy other common checks that teams may employ such as Pupitar, Hippopotas, Gloom, and GrassVally. I feel the tier just does not have the tools to deal with the versatility of ElecVally especially considering how it can also suprise would be checks with it's special set as well, where BoltBeam coverage + its ability to just pivot out against threats it cannot outright break through (which is very few) can make it nigh impossible to appropriately account for. I just think ElecVally has the right bulk, offenses, coverage, and appropriate offensive STAB to be too much for the tier and should be the first thing that the council looks at asap.

sets I love

Eiscue @ Salac Berry
Ability: Ice Face
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Icicle Crash
- Zen Headbutt / Liquidation
- Substitute

I was initially on the fence with Eiscue, but after playing with it a bit more on a wide variety of teams and not solely using it on HO, I can safely say that its probably the most dangerous win condition in the tier. While the opponent can play around it somewhat by not making it transform into its Noice form via no physical move usage, the fact of the matter is that Eiscue kinda capitalizes on its opponent dancing around the ability to try and not let it transform and often uses these scenarios to get up a sub and sweep. I really feel the tier's lack of appropriate Speed control options to help deal with the ice penguin just makes handling it way worse, considering stuff like Scarf Meowstic-F (which is not too viable of a set to begin with) is the only real offensive check to it once boosted, despite the fact that it cannot outspeed Eiscue in it's Noice form if it has the chance to transform nonetheless. Defensive checks are really hard to come by as well, where the things that can stomach a hit and manage to threaten it back only really being stuff like defensive Palpitoad and maybe a healthy Machoke at full. Even then, Palpitoad can struggle to beat it 1v1 without Scald burn luck and Machoke can just lose if Eiscue still has Ice Face activated. Unaware Pyukumuku is also an answer of course, but needs to run Spite / Counter to have a chance in beating an Eiscue under Sub. All in all, while I still think Aurora Veil can be looked at down the line, I think Eiscue is the main culprit here and is what should be targeted first before talking about Screens.

sets I love

Mareanie @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Recover
- Toxic Spikes
- Gunk Shot

I have been spamming Mar a bit more too now and ye I have to admit that Tspikes are really stupid rn too. I think the main reason for this is that our two most common Foggers in Togetic and Vullaby just hate switching into Mar (like Ho3n mentioned before) and that Defog Vally is kinda hard to justify rn considering how good and broken SD variants are. The lack of grounded poison types also don't help and games rn are kinda just leading down to Mareanie wars and the team who can keep their Tspikes up often winning the match. I am not too sure how to address this issue given how Mareanie on it's own not being too overbearing as a defensive presence and actually adding a lot of positive defensive value in a tier with threats like Machoke and Beartic running around, but I also do think that Toxic Spikes should get some looking into rn at least for the time being since like damn our hazard removal options are abysmal.

Besides the 3 things I mentioned before, I think the tier is in a pretty interesting spot and would like to see how things progress further with the ladder up now also would like to know if Meowstic-F is legal or not please. I can still see threats like GrassVally and even stuff like Thievul being a bit too much of a threat down the line, but for now I think addressing these 3 should be the top priority of the council.

Here are some teams I have been spamming on the ladder for those who want some heat:

Standard Screens HO

Linoone-G Offense

Excited to stall I mean play SS ZU with you all

 

[Negative Charge]

SilvallE probably unhealthy but I kinda don't mind because it can break Pyuku, Togetic and Mareanie in one slot. There's an extreme lack of electric types in this tier. This is the full list of electric types we can use in descending order of attack and then special attack.

Attack
Silvally-Electric, Charjabug, Joltik, Electrike, Yamper, Pichu, Chinchou, Helioptile, Toxel
Special Attack
Silvally-Electric, Electrike, Helioptile, Joltik, Chinchou, Charjabug, Toxel, Yamper, Pichu

Charjabug has base 82 Atk. Electrike has 65 Special attack. The rest of them hit like wet noodles and are only used for webs. It's an unfortunate situation all around as we wait for more drops.

 

[JdRDMS]

Hello ZU, JdRDMS here again and I'm here to share some thoughts two more Pokemon in the current meta.

Thievul

The only meaningful thing we got last shift. While I personally haven't tried it myself yet, I can see this thing has potential. The big thing Thievul has going for it is its uniqueness. It is, of course, a Dark-type Special Sweeper. That is rare, especially down here. Thievul also has some pretty great moves. Nasty Plot gives it the ability to put a dent in almost anything. Dark Pulse is a good STAB move that has a flinch chance. Substitute allows it to set up more safely. Psychic gives it an option for Fighting-types. It also has Unburden, so if it gets hit with Knock Off, either directly or from a switch, it'll get extra Speed. It'll also get extra speed from using a berry. A Petaya Berry is a good item to consider if you're running Substitute. Use it repeatedly to get down to low health, and then consume your berry. You'll gain both extra Special Attack and extra Speed, which can be very dangerous, especially if you got a Nasty Plot off during that time.

Now of course, Thievul does have some flaws. The first is its bulk. While it's special bulk is meh, it's physical bulk isn't good. It's Speed is good, but a physical attack will likely do some decent damage, if not OHKO it. In addition, Togetic. Togetic is probably Thievul's worst nightmare. Even at +6 (if you somehow manage to get there), a critical Psychic will do 85.9% max. And even then, you'll probably never get up that high. At +2, Psychic can deal 24.5-28.9% (meaning you're not even guaranteed to 4HKO it), while Togetic's Dazzling Gleam deals 54 - 64.7%. But even regarding its flaws, I still think Thievul can be decent. I think it'll be in the B's when the VR comes around.

Galarian Linoone

Now for a mon that I actually have tried (if only one set). Galarian Linoone is very good. The set I have run is Quick Feet Toxic Orb. But that can be insane. Protect lets it get poisoned by Toxic Orb so it can get its speed boost, making it very hard to outspeed. Knock Off speaks for itself. It's Knock Off, and Galarnoone gets STAB from it. It also has Facade, which when combined with both poison and STAB makes it a very dangerous attack. Finally, it has Parting Shot, which lets it switch out and bring in a teammate more safely due to dropping your opponents Attack and Special Attack. While this set is great on its own, it's not the only set this thing can run. It also has an Eviolite set (Knock Off, Double Edge, Parting Shot, Thunder Wave/Filler). I haven't tried it, but the fact that there's another viable set gives Galarnoone an unpredictability factor, which makes it even better. The main problem this thing has, especially the Toxic Orb set, is its bulk. It's pretty low, but it is still able to take attacks decently well. But overall, between strength, speed, good moves, and two different viable sets, Galarian Linoone is easily one of the best mons in the tier. I believe it'll easily be A or A+ on the VR. I can maybe see it being A-, though I doubt it.

 

[5gen]

The ZU council is voting on the first quickban slate this week, which includes Eiscue, Mareanie, and Silvally-Electric. We've had some great posts so far and we look forward to seeing what else people have to say. The council will also discuss things internally and I encourage my fellow members to make a post here as well.

 

[Ouragan2Neigee]

Hello, Ouragan2Neige here. It seem like the council is voting about potential quickban and that the ZU community can express about how they feel about the candidate, so i'll go on and talk about how I feel about Eiscue, Mareanie and Electric-Vally.

Eiscue :

I think Eiscue could be ban-worthy, not because of his Belly Drum set but more because of his Hail-Protect set. I personally play it often when I want to climb the ladder easily, and i can say without a doubt that the teams who don't have a specific pokemon to counter Eiscue Hail-Protect have a lot of problem against it. Even special attacker have a hard time forcing it to switch, since once his substitute is up, the enemy takes chip damage from hail + toxic spike that is normally placed on the field before letting in Eiscue. All of this stall result in the enemy seeing one by one all his pokemon slowly taking chip damage, and eventually dying. You just need to pair the right pokemon with it and its almost a guaranteed win. Also, when things like Electric-Vally are played with flamethrower just to counter Eiscue, I think it's a sign that the icy-penguin is broken.

Electric-Vally :

I also thinks Electric-Vally is ban-worthy. This one is simple ; it is the only viable electric type in this tier, and very few thing can wall it effectively. this thing checks common wall like togetic, vullaby, Pyukumuku and mareanie, and threaten things like Eiscue, Pupitar or even hippopotas because of his large movepool. Once it's setup, the enemy will have real trouble finding a competent pokemon to tank at least a physical attack.

Mareanie :

Mareanie is the only one on the list that I would keep in our tier. Mareanie's ability is great, it has a great typing and has access to toxic spike, which is OP right now. But her overall stats aren't convincing at all, and the weaknesses to Psychic, Ground and Electric (Basically Electric-Vally) makes it hard to stay longer then putting one layer of tspike (not to mention the ice-type running freeze-dry.) Compared to the others, Mareanie isn't something every normal team will have trouble against in battle.

Hope you enjoyed it!

 

[JdRDMS]

Here are my thoughts on the first slate of quick bans:

Silvally-Electric: Ban
I love Electricvally, but I have to admit that it's pretty broken. It has two completely different, very good sets that have different counterplay, and not only do you not know if your opponent is actually using Electricvally until they send it out, but you also don't know which set they're using until they start attacking. This results in you potentially wasting your check early, and there's pretty much no coming back from something like that. The two sets on their own probably aren't ban-worthy. I personally have only tried the SD set, and it's very good, but I don't think it's banworthy. But put together they give Electricvally an unpredictability factor that pushes it over the edge in my opinion.

Eiscue: Ban
Eiscue is another thing that I think is broken. The Hail Protect set is extremely unhealthy, and if you don't bring counterplay, you've pretty much lost the battle as soon as it begins. Even with counterplay, this set is very likely to take a decent dent out of your team. This alone makes Eiscue broken, but, just like Electricvally, this thing has another set: Belly Drum. I agree with Ouragan that this set is not broken, but again it's a very different set with very different counterplay. I honestly think that Eiscue is just as broken as Electricvally, if not a little more.

Mareanie: Do Not Ban
I really do not think Marenaie is broken at all. It's good, for sure, but not banworthy. This thing has a lot of counterplay. Glalie, who you'd think would be walled, has Freeze Dry for PhysDef sets and Earthquake for SpDef sets. Also, Mareanie is pretty reliant on Eviolite for bulk. Galarian Linoone is pretty prevalent in ZU right now, and it almost always runs Knock Off, which really hampers Mareanie's bulk and makes it pretty easy to knock out. Even without direct counterplay, most teams shouldn't have too much trouble dealing with Mareanie.

 

[czim]

Here are my thoughts regarding the possible qb elements

Silvally-Electric -> BAN, this is a no-brainer. This has literally no reliable checks. I'm not gonna drag much on this one.

Eiscue -> NO BAN. Is it annoying to face? Yes. Is it broken? I don't think so. With Silvally-Fighting and Dark leaving the tier, the Hail stall set lost popularity (and use) and while the belly drum set is a big threat I don't feel like it's super hard to pressure with the mons we have at our disposal, Silvally-Electric and Grass can both comfortably tech for it too if needed, unlike Fighting and Dark. Eiscue barely has any switch in opportunities, is SR weak, has almost no defensive utility other than its ability. I do believe this mon can be broken if both sets become very good again but for now I'd not ban it.

Mareanie -> BAN (but we could wait a bit). Mareanie is one of our best mons and tspikes are overcentralizing, and the problem is there's almost no room for the metagame to adapt to it. Our hazard control options and grounded poisons are extremely limited and they all pretty much can't beat Mareanie. Regenerator + reliable recovery makes it super easy to set up Tspikes over and over again during the game and while i believe Mareanie can be exploited, it's just not healthy for the metagame and i doubt it will be in the near future unless we get more counterplay in future DLCs.

 

[Zneon]

Hiya ZU. So since the beta has started I've been playing ZU for quite a bit, and since there is going to be voting, I might as well give my thoughts on the 3 Pokemon.

Silvally-Electric

Starting off with problem number 1 in the tier. Swords Dance Electricvally is broken and I feel has very little counterplay as Electricvally can simply pick a move for would-be checks such as Mudbray and Hippopotas, it could just carry either Surf or Grass Pledge for them thinking they can simply switch into it for free and force it out. The biggest problem with it is mainly the fact that it has many opportunities to do so. It can simply switch into something like Togetic or Pyukumuku and get off an SD, and it doesn't really worry about the latter considering how it beats it regardless. There is just very little counterplay when it comes to it as its last moveslot is incredibly flexible and it can just pick and those its checks and "counters". I agree with everyone when they say that this is the best Silvally form bar none and definitely the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier. Ban

Eiscue

With big problem number 1 out of the way, lets go to big problem number 2. I find Eiscue to be incredibly unhealthy in the metagame, HailProtect is, like a lot of people have been saying, incredibly unhealthy, and especially with Toxic Spikes support, if you do not have suitable counterplay to it you will have a hard time dealing with Eiscue cause its capable of just chipping its checks down to the point of being deadweight, or simply just chipping a lot of Pokemon down with the combination of Hail + Toxic and Freeze-Dry. I agree that this one set alone makes Eiscue really unhealthy due to the lack of counterplay to this. Then there is Belly Drum, which I feel is less broken but still incredibly threatening set, just like Electricvally, Eiscue has a lot of opportunities to set-up a Substitute, and once that's up and it gets a Belly Drum off, there is very little that can really deal with it other than priority and Pyukumuku and its capable of getting consistent sweeps off. I think Eiscue is probably the most limiting factor right now and I feel it will be unhealthy for the tier. Ban

Mareanie

And lastly we have Mareanie. T-Spikes centralise the meta to a pretty unhealthy degree, with such lack of hazard removal other than a few, and the best one which is Togetic being prone to being overwhelmed, I feel Mareanie are incredibly unhealthy for the development of the tier and with how consistent Mareanie is at setting them up due to its typing and Regenerator, it can just set them up over and over again throughout the course of the game cause of how none of the hazard removers can really beat or overwhelm Mareanie and it can even cripple them with a Knock Off. Mareanie may not be overwhelming on its own, but with how much the meta warps around Toxic Spikes and how consistent Mareanie is at setting them up, I feel its just an unhealthy element as of right now. Ban

 

[275p]

It's time to bring my opinion on certain mons. Let's go!

Silvally-Electric: Ban

Vally-Electric is one of the strongest mons in the tier and is able to hit everything neutral, thanks to its boltbeam combo. But even Electric-Type checks like Whiscash aren't safe from it, as Vally just runs Grass Pledge. It is incredibly hard to deal with and therefore a ban should be considered.

Eiscue: Ban

Eiscue is easily one of ZU's most broken mons. Thanks to its ability, it is able to mostly securely set up Belly Drum and then sweep entire teams. Its only counters are Mareanie and Klang. But even those two can't really check Eis, as it can just run either Zen Headbutt or Reversal. But Belly Drum is not as hard to deal with like Sub Hail. With that and its acces to protect and ice face, Eis can just turn into a real stall mon that is incredibly hard to deal with. And if t-spikes are on the field, you can basically throw the game. Not only that, but water types like Mareanie aren't safe against it, as Eis runs Freezy Dry. The only mon that could possible beat it without t-spikes on the field is special Silvally Ice, but why would you want to waste a Vally Slot for that? Overall, I believe Eiscue is unhealthy and should be banned.

Mareanie: Ban

Unlike last gen, hazards are a lot harder to deal with, since our only viable defoggers here are Togetic, Vullaby, Silvally and Delibird (Well it ain't viable, but still). There is almost no hazard remover, who can come safely in on Mareanie. Yes Vally Electric and Psychic threaten Mareanie with their stab attacks, but both of these aren't immune to tspikes. Togetic has a type disadvantage against it and while Vullaby can remove its eviolite, it will still do pitiful damage even after that! All in all, I believe Mareanie is not healthy for this meta and therefore should be banned!

Ok that's all I have to say. Just wanted to express my opinions on these three mons. Hopefully you'll understand my arguments.

See ya!

 

[Spacial]

As custom dictates, I'll share my thoughts on the Quickban Slate.

Ban: Everyone and their moms have given their two-cents on Electricvally, so I'll try to be brief. Silvally Electric has very limited defensive counterplay, and what little defensive counterplay it has is completely different for the SD and special attacking sets. This makes it extremely hard to play around until its set is revealed, and even then, it can still beat conventional answers like Whiscash and Gourgeist by wrecking them with a surprise Grass Pledge or Ice Beam. It can't do all of this at once, of course, but the element of unpredictability is really what drives it over the edge.

Ban: Since day 1, Eiscue had established itself as a terrifying win condition thanks to the combination of Ice Face and Belly Drum. I had my doubts, but I ultimately concluded that Eiscue wasn't broken at that point. Then, along came Ho3n, who created an amazing HailTect stall set that took advantage of Ice Face blocking physical attacks and hail resetting it. This set can shut down virtually any physical attacker with ease, and can end games on its own if the opponent's special attackers (of which there aren't nearly as many as there are physical attackers) are taken down. That's not even getting into the fact that both the BD and stall sets have completely different counterplay, so trying to play around the stall set can let Eiscue set up and trample you. This simply puts too much of a strain on the metagame for it to be considered healthy.

Ban: 3 strikes, you're out
Toxic Spikes are a driving force in the metagame due to a lack of good absorbers and hazard removal (your only real options are Togetic/Vullaby and Dartrix on occasion,) and Mareanie happens to be the best setter of them. More often than not, games will devolve into trying to keep Toxic Spikes off your side and on the opponent's side (mostly using Mareanie). Wearing down Mareanie isn't an option either, as Recover and Regenerator let it stick around for a long time. The fact that almost every team needs Mareanie or some other Poison-type to counter the opposing Mareanie's T-spikes speaks volumes about Mareanie's impact on the metagame. I am in favor of banning Mareanie, as it centralizes the metagame and restricts teambuilding considerably.

 

[AstilCodex]

Hey, Astil here. I wanted to give my opinion about the mons that the council its discussing for potential quickbans and I like them giving us the opportunity to share our opinions as well so here we go (First time doing this btw).

E-Vally:

Undeniably the best mon in the tier rn. Tho I love E-Vally role in the tier its a fact that this thing its the mon that centralizes the metagame. Its capability of potentially sweeping with pretty much no further team effort its crazy. Not only it has limited counterplays defensively, its dedicated checks like Hippo, Mudbray can just come once because of its great coverage in Ice Fang/Beam or Grass Pledge. Its capability of running both physical and special and amazing offensive pressure makes it so hard to play around. Even SD sets are so easy to set in that sets like SD, MA, Flame Charge, Pledge/Beam are so solid and scary. No other Silvally form feels like this one right now, so this is a Ban-ban for sure.

Eiscue:

I've been having fun with this thing since Alpha and tho it is one of the best mons rn I dont think its broken to be banworthy. Defensive-Hail doesn't feel that good right now (is T-spikes what makes it good) and that leaves its playstyle a lot more predictable to the usual BD set, which its annoying sometimes terryfing to play around and hard to face. But its also hard for the opponent to find out a setup moment because of how predictable it is. Usually you will have Eiscue in mind when teambuilding but it doesnt centralizes that much like E-vally which needs dedicated checks to be at full hp or you just autolose to it. Imo this could wait a little longer but for the time I'd vote No Ban this case.

Mareanie:

Ok so I didn't think this will go on a quickban disscusion because its not the type of mon its used to seem as "broken", but I definitely understand why is here. T-spikes are way too good, but Mareanie isn't broken itself. Sure is the best T-spike setter, good typing and regen makes it a great wall in the tier. Also pointing that hazard removal its pretty limited relying on Toge/Vullaby or your own mareanie to remove T-spikes. This mon's bulk isnt that great to make all its functions on a team by its own. And it gets crippled a lot by Knock Off, also no space for haze in its movepool rn makes it very setup fodder. Having common weaknesses like ground, psychic and electric makes it hard to find a comfy position to always setup t-spikes. So you shouldn't have major issues with mareanie more than getting poisoned a few mons in battle. A complex ban will be to ban T-spikes but thats not something that its usually done. But imagine if mareanie wouldnt had t-spikes we weren't discussing about banning it. So idk in this case. If I were council member I'd Abstain tbh. But I wanted to share my thoughts on it too.

Hope you enjoyed my opinion tho they all 3 are probably getting banned lmao.
See ya c:

 

[5gen]

Hey all, over the past week the council has been discussing the first quick ban slate of SS ZU and reading ban/dnb posts in this thread. Voting has ended and the results are: Eiscue and Mareanie remain, while Silvally-Electric is quick banned. Here is the voting sheet.

Below is the reasoning for each council member.

5gen

Eiscue (DNB): As with any major threat, teams must prepare for Eiscue. While BD and the Hail set are substantially different in play, preparing for Eiscue is not all that bad. Between special attackers, faster Pokemon, and Toxic Spikes, Eiscue is not overwhelming at all in my opinion. Both sets can be scary if you do not prep for them, but prepping for Eiscue comes naturally with the loss of so many threats in recent shifts and with Eiscue being a slow Ice-type. Even when it does set with Belly Drum and get going, Pokemon such as Klang, Wartortle, Honedge, phys def Machoke, Boldore, and so on can check it in a pinch if they're healthy. Not to mention priority users can nail Eiscue if it's not behind a sub. All in all I do not see Eiscue as broken.

Mareanie (DNB): This is a clear case of Tspikes being dominant and Mareanie being the best setter, rather than Mareanie being too good of a wall or too oppressive. Moreover, Knock Off and Toxic and incredibly good paired with Tspikes and they allow Mareanie to cripple entry hazard removers and Eviolite users, which make it annoying to deal with. That being said, removing Mareanie does not solve the problem that is Tspikes, and Mareanie itself is not broken either in my opinion. Teams have been adapting to Mareanie and Tspikes with Pokemon such as Gloom and Natu and focusing on pressuring Mareanie offensively so that it does not have an easy time setting Tspikes. While Toxic Spikes are a nuisance, I believe we must continue to explore the meta and finding ways to play around Mareanie+Tspikes.

Silvally-Electric (DNB): Personally have not experienced Silvally-Electric as so good that it is worthy of quick banning. The nature of not knowing the Silvally forme at team preview and Silvally-Electric being able to run SD and mixed does give it a degree of unpredictability, but I actually do not believe that its counterplay is as different between sets as people are making it out to be. More specifically, Silvally-Electric's defensive counterplay has overlap between sets. For example, Gloom, Gourgeist-L, SpD Hippopotas, and Zweilous can check SD and mixed sets with the right EVs (and if Silv-Electric doesn't run max attack, things like Scraggy, Dusclops, Klang, and so on can handle it more easily). While I agree that Silvally-Electric is difficult to cover across all its sets, I find that the meta has ways to manage it. Beyond that, Silvally-Electric shares the same flaws as all Silvally formes do: it is easy to wear down and is affected by all entry hazards. Faster Pokemon such as Linoone-G, Drakloak, Choice Scarf Raboot, and so forth can then revenge kill Silvally-Electric if it's weakened enough and hasn't boosted with Flame Charge. For these reasons, I believe the meta has the tools to deal with Silvally-Electric.

Aaronboyer

Silvally-Electric differentiates itself from other Silvally formes by being one of the only ones to effectively utilize special coverage moves on either a fully special or mixed attacking set. The fairly short list of Silvally-Electric’s checks and counters differs unbelievably between its Swords Dance and special attacking sets, meaning not only do you have to account what type the opposing Silvally is, but what checks you need to keep healthy to actually beat the Silvally-Electric set you are facing. This puts a massive strain on teambuilding as well, because it’s not just how about how well Silvally-Electric does on its own, but also how Knock Off and Toxic Spikes support from teammates capitalize on Silvally-Electric’s checks. (Mudbray/Gloom/Dusclops/Klang gets knocked off; Whiscash/Geist/Opposing Silvally formes get intoxicated by Toxic Spikes). Ultimately, I believe Silvally-Electric is the biggest reason why the current ZU metagame is warped the way it is right now.

Mareanie is a Pokémon that I was actually really surprised made the voting slate at all tbh, and I was even more surprised from the community outcrying that it should be banned. I understand that Toxic Spikes are bit of a hassle to play against, but despite our limited hazard control options, I don’t believe we have fully explored all of our options. Several teams I’ve seen utilize Pokemon like Gloom, Klang, Lunatone, Machoke, Duosion, etc. who are all immune or benefit from Toxic Spikes, and although the metagame is very centric around Mareanie, I haven’t seen anything yet that makes me believe it’s unbreakable it worthy of being banned. On top of this, (although it’s not a reason I am using to vote DNB on Mareanie now) Gabite/Electabuzz/Nidorino/Nidorina will all be great additions that pressures Mareanie or absorbs it’s Toxic Spikes and sets up on it.

Eiscue only 6-0's teams that are truly unprepared for it and don't play around it well. Playing around Eiscue isn't too terribly difficult, and is actually a bit worse in the current metagame then it was in the Silvally-Dark metagame. Would like to vote upon this again post DLC or post July drops though.

DurzaOffTopic

Eiscue (DNB):

I personally believe that Eiscue is the closest thing to broken on this voting slate. While the Belly Drum set is certainly the most difficult to deal with on paper, there is plenty of counterplay to it available through phazing, haze, special scarfers, priority, and even a few Pokemon that are able to eat +6 attacks. Plenty of Silvally forms and things like Raboot are now teching Flamethrower as a fourth move to help deal with Eiscue, and at not much loss for other coverage. Most of all, the omnipresent Toxic Spikes put a huge damper on both Belly Drum and SubTect Hail sets, requiring a lot of counterplay and team support to be able to make them work effectively. Eiscue is overall a pretty healthy Pokemon in the ZU metagame, and therefore I will be voting **Do Not Ban**.

Mareanie (DNB):

Mareanie is a tough case in ZU. The reason Mareanie is being voted on this slate is because of a single reason: Toxic Spikes. Toxic Spikes are extremely oppressive in the current metagame and Mareanie is easily the best setter available. However, Mareanie is also the best *remover* of Toxic Spikes, and I don’t believe that banning Mareanie will fix the issue of the dominance of Toxic Spikes - this is something that can only be resolved over time. Banning Mareanie will only cause other Toxic Spike setters to become more prevalent, and being an otherwise solid Pokemon in terms of utility and especially self-removal of Toxic Spikes, I am voting **Do Not Ban**.

Silvally-Electric (DNB):

Silvally-Electric is certainly a strong Pokemon in ZU, but in my opinion it has some serious shortcomings that sets it apart from the other dominant Silvally forms of the new generation. Unfortunately, the tiering system has been unkind to ZU, and we still lack many fully evolved Pokemon that we will inevitably be receiving, which will certainly help balance the power in the tier in the coming months. The multiple Grass-types (Gloom, Silvally-Grass, Gourgeist, and others) and things like Whiscash, Charjabug, and Hail Eiscue can really put a damper on the Swords Dance set as a result of the lack of viable physical coverage to compliment the extremely powerful 120-BP Electric Multi Attack. Mixed sets are also inconsistent as a result of having to choose coverage. The more practical set, which is the special BoltBeam set, is significantly more easy to wall with general special tanks, as it is unable to break through things like Oranguru, Klang, Togetic, Dusclops, Seaking, Lunatone, and others. It is an ineffective defogger at the moment due to the prevalence of Toxic Spikes, and the only real issue with it is having to figure out which set it is to send in the appropriate check. In my opinion, this is much easier in practice than on paper, as all good teams should carry a Swords Dance Silvally check as well as a generalist special tank, given how many options there are for both of these necessities. I have not struggled with Silvally-Electric and I feel like it is easily pressured by many things, as well as healthily pressuring defensive threats like Mareanie and Pyukumuku. This, along with my prior reasoning, leads me to believe that Silvally-Electric does not meet the criteria for a quickban. I believe that Silvally-Electric would continue to be less dominant over time as well, if it were not banned, and I hope that the council considers a retest sometime down the line in SS ZU.

Ho3nConfirm3d

Silvally-Electric has shown an immense offensive presence due to its multiple sets, and easy support for its limited checks. It is a Silvally form that most successfully pulls off special and mixed sets due to how well special Ice / Grass / Fire coverage works for it in Ice Beam, Grass Pledge, and Flamethrower. Other forms like Ice and Grass have STAB coverage that isn’t as threatening nor unique as Silvally-Electric’s, and that makes team’s centralize for it and only it for checking offensive Electric types. This centralization and unpredictability makes it the unhealthiest Silvally form by a margin, and the tier can better develop without its presence.

Mareanie, and to a similar extent Toxic Spikes, is heavily prepped for and is arguably manageable. This was a hard DNB and vote in general to make, but considering Mare’s passivity, 4mss, and competition with other Poison-types and Toxic Spikes setters, I don’t see the good in banning Mare. It only prolongs a bigger issue with the centralization of Toxic Spikes and the limited absorbers / removers, which is a problem that needs more time and a larger scope to address fully. For that matter, and given that Mareanie itself is checked my multiple relevant sweepers and wallbreakers, it should stay for the moment.

Eiscue has been watered down in the meta thanks to relevant adaptations and checks finding their way to naturally fit on teams. Being an Ice-type with either only a single chance to setup or limited resistances for its wall set, there are many mons / sets that can fit Fire-type coverage or phazing into their movepool. Eiscue is also incredibly pressured by hazards, which makes phazing even more deadly for it. Ultimately, teams have changed and players are ready for its sets, and I see no reason to ban it.

Union Caboche

Eiscue DNB
Eiscue has enough counterplay to stay in ZU. Mons such as Wartortle, Pyukumuku or Klang are able to take hits even at +6,faster mons such as Drakloak, Lunatone scarf or any special scarfer is able to revenge kill it even at +1 in speed if Ice Face is not broken, special moves, phazing, encore, hazards are also great way to prevent it to set up BD. It's a mon very high risk very high reward but which in practise relies on the match up and on the support of the team to work. Hail Eiscue is an interesting set but it is far to currently be broken, the purpose of the set is to stop physical attackers and it doesn't really have the ability to threat whatever else.

I don't think Eiscue is currently broken, uncompetitive or overcentralizing in the current metagame and therefore it deserves to stay in ZU.

Mareanie Ban
The fact that ZU doesn't have great ways to remove hazards make Toxic Spikes extremely powerful in this tier. Teams without defog/t-spikes absorbers are in a significant disadvantage in their games against this playstyle. As a result, the teambuilding is restricted by the presence of poison types or similar mesures in teams that don't need these mons. It also created a vicious circle where you use Mareanie to don't be weak against toxic spikes which also means you use toxic spikes yourself and will automatically increase the usage of t-spikes in the metagame.

If Mareanie is not the only Pokemon which is able to use t-spikes, it's the most effective one thanks to its staying power with regenerator+recover and also the many ways it has to punish its opponents with the combinaison of knock off/toxic/scald. You always have to assume the cost of your item or your mon being toxiced/burned when you switch on Mareanie. Mons such as Gloom, Togetic, Wartortle, Vullaby, Natu are punished if they switch directly and they even sometimes lose the dual according to the set.

I don't see at short or at long term a way to decrease significantly the presence of Mareanie and the influence of toxic spikes in the tier. The teambuilding will therefore stay restricted by this unnecessary slot. If ban Mareanie doesn't mean t-spikes will disappear, they will at least be weaker. It's a first step and that's the reason why I think it should be quickbanned.

Silvally-Electric Ban
As long as Silvally-Electric will stay in the tier, the competitive aspect of the metagame will be hurt to some degree. Every Vally in this meta has the power to threat defensive cores, however, the biggest difference with Silvally-Electric is the flexibility it has to break these cores. With only its stab and an ice or a grass move, it's able to hit neutrally the biggest part of the meta, letting the two last slot free for anything it wants to cover. Sets with SD+Subsistute, SD+mixed, special are all viable and have different counterplays.

An Electric STAB is also really threating right now. It's the only Vally we have which is able to hit Klang neutrally with Multi Attack, it's one of the two Vally which is able to hit Pyuku super effectively, it's also one of the few able to bypass Hail Eiscue thanks to its ability to be played mixed. Globally, its overcentralization and its unpredictability make games more match up based than they should be in a healthy metagame. We unfortunately already see situations where players use their own Silvally-Electric to check the opposite Silvally-Electric. I don't see a happy end with this pokemon in ZU and therefore I think it should be quickbanned.

The council will continue to monitor the current metagame and should any problematic elements arise, I encourage everyone to share their thoughts in this thread.

Tagging The Immortal to implement

 

[Procrastinasian]

Hey guys, Procrastinasian here. I wanted to contribute to the forum by compiling my tier list of best and worst pokemon in ZU as of May (meaning Evally is not ranked):

I hope this introduces a further discussion of viability within the tier, and hopefully, we can have a VR coming up soon!

 

[Empoleolindo]

Hi guys, I wanna know why Mareanie still here? We already know that regenerator is broken, but not only that toxic spikes is stupid because we do not have a lot of poison choices and only 3 pokemon are worth with knock off, even if you use taunt, she can active regenerator or burn with scald//knock off your item, its always a win situation for her, please I can't handle this mon anymore, is BROKEN

 

[5gen]

Hi guys, I wanna know why Mareanie still here? We already know that regenerator is broken, but not only that toxic spikes is stupid because we do not have a lot of poison choices and only 3 pokemon are worth with knock off, even if you use taunt, she can active regenerator or burn with scald//knock off your item, its always a win situation for her, please I can't handle this mon anymore, is BROKEN

Hello. In this post (two posts above yours), each council members has provided their votes and reasoning for each vote, including five explanations for Mareanie. Council and anyone into ZU at the moment pretty much agree that Toxic Spikes are fantastic and that Mareanie is the best setter. However, banning Mareanie would not solve the problem that is Toxic Spikes and Mareanie itself is not so incredible defensively that it warrants more discussion. Next time, please read through the thread before posting.

 

[Cheezy]

I'm making this post to introduce a Pokemon that I would like to see ranked or at least acknowledged for being ranked.

Bunnelby @ Eviolite
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature/Adamant
- Swords Dance
- Strength/Quick Attack
- Iron Head
- Earthquake/Wild Charge

- Swords Dance to boost it's attack.
- Strength is it's primary STAB that can hit hard. Quick Attack is another STAB move in case you want to be able to outspeed Pokemon that are normally faster than it.
- Iron Head is for Solrock and Lunatone because they are immune to Ground-type attacks, as well as for other Rock types, Fairy types, and Ice types.
- Earthquake is to deal with Mareanie, bulky Steels like Klang, and other Pokemon that are weak to it. Wild Charge is mainly for bulky waters.

This Pokemon has a amazing ability in Huge Power which boosts its attack stat by 2. Eviolite gives it decent bulk that allows it to most of the time SD up. This Pokemon is pretty good at sweeping once you boosts your attack. With enough support from your team, it will be able to set up and sweep.

Calcs

+2 252 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Strength vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gloom: 150-177 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Strength vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Greedent: 261-307 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 136+ Def Eviolite Klang: 228-270 (71 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Honedge: 278-328 (94.5 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Togetic: 254-300 (80.8 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 266-314 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Wailord: 700-824 (145.5 - 171.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 272-320 (86.6 - 101.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Now let me make this clear. I'm not nominating this Pokemon to be A rank or something. I just want it be acknowledged as a Pokemon on the VR and maybe used. Feel free to let me know your opinion on this Pokemon and if you want it to be ranked or not :)


Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1118002716
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1118008681

Team I made: https://pokepast.es/7db1f3ea898fdc2a

This team is specifically made to counter Bunnelby's checks as stated down below in 275p's post. Silvally-Grass can deal with Silvally Rock and Psychic, Hippowdon, and kind of check Gourgeist with Flamethrower. Pyuku helps sponge special attacks and Block+Toxic+Soak with great bulk is absolutely amazing when trying to beat Hippo, Gourg, and most Silv-Forms for Bunnelby to suceed. Lampent helps get rid of Gourg and few Silv-Forms. Charjabug sets webs so Bunnelby can outspeed and OHKO Silvally at +2. Baltoy is just a mon I threw on because I needed a Psychic and Rock resist and it can also set Rocks and spin.

 

[275p]

I'm making this post to introduce a Pokemon that I would like to see ranked or at least acknowledged for being ranked.

Bunnelby @ Eviolite
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature/Adamant
- Swords Dance
- Strength/Quick Attack
- Iron Head
- Earthquake/Wild Charge

- Swords Dance to boost it's attack.
- Strength is it's primary STAB that can hit hard. Quick Attack is another STAB move in case you want to be able to outspeed Pokemon that are normally faster than it.
- Iron Head is for Solrock and Lunatone because they are immune to Ground-type attacks, as well as for other Rock types, Fairy types, and Ice types.
- Earthquake is to deal with Mareanie, bulky Steels like Klang, and other Pokemon that are weak to it. Wild Charge is mainly for bulky waters.

This Pokemon has a amazing ability in Huge Power which boosts its attack stat by 2. Eviolite gives it decent bulk that allows it to most of the time SD up. This Pokemon is pretty good at sweeping once you boosts your attack.

Calcs

+2 252 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Strength vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gloom: 150-177 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Strength vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Greedent: 261-307 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 136+ Def Eviolite Klang: 228-270 (71 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Honedge: 278-328 (94.5 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Togetic: 254-300 (80.8 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 266-314 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Wailord: 700-824 (145.5 - 171.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 272-320 (86.6 - 101.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Now let me make this clear. I'm not nominating this Pokemon to be A rank or something. I just want it be acknowledged as a Pokemon on the VR and maybe used. Feel free to let me know your opinion on this Pokemon and if you want it to be ranked or not :)

Well the damage is certainly impressive, but there a problems with Bunnelby. Sure it can dish out hard with Strenght and EQ, but it is still pretty slow. For instance, you are not able to revenge kill things like Drakloak( who can just burn you) and you are not strong enough break things like defensive Gourgeist, since it lacks coverage to hit it effectively. Also, Bunnelby is also not capable of breaking Hippototas. Look at those calcs:

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Iron Head vs. 72 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Large: 115-136 (37.2 - 44%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Strength vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 154-183 (45.2 - 53.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO

That's not enough to KO it and Gour can either use Foul Play or Wow to stop your sweep, while Hippopotas can just use Whirlwind. Also even with your eviolite, you're still getting koed by every Vally form. Look

252 Atk Silvally-Bug Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bunnelby: 222-262 (102.3 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Silvally-Grass Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bunnelby: 222-262 (102.3 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As you can see, Silvally can still kill you even at full health. And QA can only 2KO them at 2+.

Now don't get me wrong here, Bunnelby could really be an effective choice here I don't doubt that. However, do you have any replays of a success with Bunnelby? As long as you don't have them, people will not be convinced by your arguments. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[OranBerryBlissey10]

I'm making this post to explain why Pyukumuku is broken. I see a lot of people complain about Mareanie or Eiscue, but both of these mons are far easier to handle. Reasoning on Mareanie or Eiscue has already been provided by the council, so I won't be discussing them.

Pyukumuku is an incredibly potent stallmon with very little counterplay. Now, I don't want to ban it because it's a stallmon, unlike a lot of people that get easily frustrated by stall. I have nothing against stall and am not making this post out of frustration, but rather because of my experience with (making) stall teams. There is a large number of ways to deal with stall, and good stallmons find ways to predict, counter or halt some of these methods. The problem with Pyukumuku is that almost none of them work:

(P)Hazing: Pyukumuku does not rely on setup.

Toxic (Spikes): It commonly carries rest for this purpose and good stall teams have a poison type and/or hazard control.

Setup: Sadly, my preferred way of dealing with stall is rendered completely useless by Unaware.

PP-stalling it: using Rest, it can effectively conserve its own PP and Block+Spite can make short work of your own.

Brute Force: With the removal of Silvally-Electric, there are no potent electric types in ZU. You might think that Silvally-Grass would be an answer, but not only do a lot of Silvallies rely on Swords Dance, Pyukumuku can simply poison them and get out. On top of that, it could also suddenly reveal Counter or Mirror Coat, taking down your Silvally.

Strategies that semi-work:

Taunt: While nothing except Linoone or sometimes Pyukumuku itself usally carries Taunt, the window for exploiting it is small, so staying in with Linoone and attacking could work. However, since Counter is not classified as a status move, carrying Counter could negate this strategy.

Encore: Nothing carries Encore, and even if it did, exploiting it would be hard due to setup not working and the possiblity of locking it into something detrimental like Toxic, Recover, Rest, Spite, Counter or Mirror Coat.


In short, Pyukumuku could theoretically be dealt with, but dedicating multiple teammembers with specific movesets to dealing with Pyukumuku does not seem healthy for the metagame. Therefore, I am proposing to ban Pyukumuku from ZU. While I like Pyukumuku in general, in my opinion it is too strong for ZU and I don't even understand how it got here in the first place. Feel free to let me know if you think I missed something.

 

[missangelic]

I'm making this post to explain why Pyukumuku is broken. I see a lot of people complain about Mareanie or Eiscue, but both of these mons are far easier to handle. Reasoning on Mareanie or Eiscue has already been provided by the council, so I won't be discussing them.

Pyukumuku is an incredibly potent stallmon with very little counterplay. Now, I don't want to ban it because it's a stallmon, unlike a lot of people that get easily frustrated by stall. I have nothing against stall and am not making this post out of frustration, but rather because of my experience with (making) stall teams. There is a large number of ways to deal with stall, and good stallmons find ways to predict, counter or halt some of these methods. The problem with Pyukumuku is that almost none of them work:

(P)Hazing: Pyukumuku does not rely on setup.

Toxic (Spikes): It commonly carries rest for this purpose and good stall teams have a poison type and/or hazard control.

Setup: Sadly, my preferred way of dealing with stall is rendered completely useless by Unaware.

PP-stalling it: using Rest, it can effectively conserve its own PP and Block+Spite can make short work of your own.

Brute Force: With the removal of Silvally-Electric, there are no potent electric types in ZU. You might think that Silvally-Grass would be an answer, but not only do a lot of Silvallies rely on Swords Dance, Pyukumuku can simply poison them and get out. On top of that, it could also suddenly reveal Counter or Mirror Coat, taking down your Silvally.

Strategies that semi-work:

Taunt: While nothing except Linoone or sometimes Pyukumuku itself usally carries Taunt, the window for exploiting it is small, so staying in with Linoone and attacking could work. However, since Counter is not classified as a status move, carrying Counter could negate this strategy.

Encore: Nothing carries Encore, and even if it did, exploiting it would be hard due to setup not working and the possiblity of locking it into something detrimental like Toxic, Recover, Rest, Spite, Counter or Mirror Coat.


In short, Pyukumuku could theoretically be dealt with, but dedicating multiple teammembers with specific movesets to dealing with Pyukumuku does not seem healthy for the metagame. Therefore, I am proposing to ban Pyukumuku from ZU. While I like Pyukumuku in general, in my opinion it is too strong for ZU and I don't even understand how it got here in the first place. Feel free to let me know if you think I missed something.

While I definitely agree that is a strong choice in ZU right now, I would not say it's unbeatable. -Grass, , , , , , , , and all threaten it with their STAB attacks, and each can be fit on a variety of different archetypes. Strong attackers and Pokemon with strong coverage options like , -Ice, , and also threaten Pyukumuku and make it hesitant to switch in, even against these potentially threatening setup sweepers.

One other way to pressure Pyukumuku is through proper item control, which is much easier now that Z-Crystals are no longer a thing and Silvally can be pretty easily predicted as a switch-in once you know its type. Choiced Pokemon that run Trick such as , , , and can all permanently neuter Pyukumuku's ability to effectively stall throughout a match. Another fun option is to run Trick on Toxic Orb , which ensures that no matter how many times it rests, Pyukumuku will always be badly poisoned.

Running setup in front of Pyukumuku also isn't entirely impossible. , , , and can all get away with setting up in its face thanks to Stored Power. Duosion even has the luxury of Magic Guard, which totally shields it from Toxic.

and are also fun options that can be run on stall and balance to help with the matchup versus Pyukumuku, and each also has the ability to pivot really well and bring in a teammate that can take advantage of Pyukumuku.

Pyukumuku also has a number of issues outside of its checks and counters. These boil down to its passivity and its terrible 4 moveslot syndrome. While Pyukumuku can be very potent for shutting down certain Pokemon, it can't run everything it wants to function effectively. Recover is always mandatory, but Pyukumuku must choose to either go with a Spite/Block set for PP stalling or a Counter/Mirror Coat set, or else it will be much less effective. It's also not the hardest to scout each set considering that both of them tend to be passive, obvious, and the Counter/Mirror Coat set is much more popular on the ladder. The PP stalling set also runs the risk of being counter-stalled, especially if a Pokemon has more than one high PP move.

While I definitely agree that Pyukumuku is a strong pick and is the backbone of a lot of stall's potency at the moment, I don't think it's unbeatable. It could end up being unhealthier down the line, but I predict that it will be mostly pretty manageable until the DLC. Personally, I would rather see something like go before Pyukumuku if stall is such a problem at the moment.

tl;dr