Metagame NP ZU Stage 20: Old Town Road - Glastrier Suspect Test

[diego]

​

Glastrier has been a relevant presence in the metagame for a while now, but recently it has been in the center of a lot of controversies. Its set variety, between Swords Dance, RestTalk + Curse, RestTalk + 2 attacks, and more, combined with its massive natural bulk and unpredictability in Tera Types and EV spreads, makes it really difficult to answer both defensively and offensively.

The most common set on Glastrier is SD + 3 attacks, usually Icicle Crash, High Horsepower, and Close Combat. The set is great at trading with whatever you need it to, especially if you commit Tera to it, and it can more often than not go at least 2 for 1. It can run a variety of EV spreads, ranging from max HP + max Speed Adamant, max Atk + max Speed Adamant/Jolly, and max HP + max Atk Adamant, or sometimes even Brave with minimum speed to underspeed Spiritomb in Trick Room. Tera Types can also vary: among them, Ground gives it an immunity to Volt Switch from the likes of Jolteon and Vikavolt and Thunder Wave from Drifblim and Regirock, and it also boosts High Horsepower damage; Fire gives it a resistence to Steel and Fire while also making it immune to burn from the likes of Charizard and Sableye; Fairy, Ghost, and Poison offer a resistence/immunity to Fighting-types like Toxicroak and Primeape and provide other useful defensive traits.
RestTalk + Curse has been on a steady rise lately, and it's the set most people consider the most broken. It's very hard to deal with and can often snowball out of control after the right pieces have been chipped. Max HP + max SpDef investments with a Careful Nature let it live a huge amount of hits on the special side, while Curse boosts physical Defense, letting it set up in front of and outlive many different threats. Leftovers increase its longevity even further, and even running mono Icicle Crash lets it hit most of the tier for at least neutral damage. Tera Dark gives it an immunity to Prankster Encore from Sableye and Whimsicott and Psychic Noise from Mesprit, while Tera Dragon gives it useful resistences to multiple common special attacker types, like Jolteon's Electric, Charizard's Fire and Venusaur's Grass.
RestTalk + 2 attacks, usually Icicle Crash + High Horsepower, gives extra longevity to the standard offensive set, and benefits even more from Tera to outlive multiple Pokemon in the metagame. Max HP + max Atk with an Adamant nature lets it be threatening and tank multiple hits at the same time. Other sets like Custap Berry or Roar + 3 attacks are also great on certain teams and have been seeing usage.

Glastrier, however, can sometimes feel like a Tera hog, more often than not requiring you to invest the mechanic into it to achieve its full potential, be it its trading capabilities for the more offensive sets or its snowballing sweeper potential on the RestTalk Curse set. The offensive sets can sometimes just be stopped right in their tracks by correct positioning of offensive pieces, and if chipped enough, they are pretty easy to revenge kill due to the horse's low Speed; while the RestTalk ones, having to take multiple hits throughout the course of a game, are still susceptible to stuff like entry hazards (+ Knock Off if boots), particularly strong breakers, Encore from Mesprit and Tinkatuff, Trick Choice item from Rotom and Sneasel-Hisui, Haze from Weezing, or just multiple instances of chip damage.

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in ZU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played ZU before the test, full stop.)
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact me, sleid, or a member of staff.
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2920. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 4. The suspect test will go on for about 14 days, lasting until <t:1780272000:F>.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message me or anyone else on the ZU council. Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

Avoid posting one-liners or posts that do not contribute to any discussion. They will be deleted.

 

[lettuce]

I think that Glastrier is a little too strong and probably should be banned.

The only time I can remember seeing a Glastrier not have a good MU is probably a last mon curseglast that doesn't have time to set up. There aren't a lot of mons that resist ice in the tier, and unless you're venturing into Poliwrath or Samurott (or dare I say Claw), the only common defensive mon that resists ice and isn't weak to Ground/Fighting is Froslass. There are ~4 defensive mons that I would freely switch into a glast, being Lass, Mesp, Sab, and Weezing. Mesprit and Sableye are hoping that you try to set up as they switch in because otherwise they do very little to it, and Lass/Weezing are hoping you aren't tera fire so they can wisp you, or best-case trading down with Pain Split. The most reliable of these in my opinion is Weezing since you should have haze to make sure glast doesn't set up on you, but it's also the one I see least. Mesprit and Sableye don't beat Glast if it clicks Icicle Crash on the switch, since he 3hko's mesp and has a roll to 2hko sab. Sableye and Froslass are both useless against Tera Fire glast, since now what do they do, sacrifice themself for the free switch?

Now, IDBP mons are good into Glast. If you are good at saving Iron Defense Body Press mons like Regirock, Naclstack, and Orthworm (+ tera cuz you need it) for Glastrier, you probably would think it's pretty easy to defensively answer glast. This is the worst MU for glast that I could imagine, but I don't think people are spamming those mons (and if they are, it's Nacl and he's not consistently running IDBP).

Offensively checking Glast is significantly harder than offensively checking something like Clawitzer. If a Clawitzer clicks tera, it's tera dragon and you probably saw it coming, and chances are you clicked something it was neutral to anyways. If a glast is teraing on your attacker, it's teraing out of its fighting/fire weaknesses and you're lucky if your click is still a 2HKO. Glast has the luxury to use its tera into a defensively strong type like Poison, Electric, Ghost, or Fire, which it almost always will do since the upside is 2+ KOs.

And if you think it's a skill issue, here's a fun game called 'guess what the glast is running on preview.' If you get all of these right, then yeah maybe its a skill issue and I'm bad. I don't think you're going to though.

Glast Replays

the goal of this is to show that it's very difficult to predict glast on preview

you get 1 point for moveset (accepting 'sd' and '3a' as the same as well as 'curse' and 'rest'), 1 point for tera, and 1 point per item on each glast. see how many u get

ZUWC:
Beavs v Scarf Krick (both players, 6 possible points)
Fille v Baddy (Fille, only tera + item revealed so 2 possible points)
asa v dbd (asa only, no tera so 2 possible points)
diego v micciu (diego only, no tera so 2 points, fully aware this is a sample)
micciu v kyuss (micciu, 3 points)
sinnabyss v truthnukamon (sinnabyss, 3 points)
vioz v plague (vioz, 2pts)
plague v meth (plague, 3pts)

ZUCL:
diego v baddy (diego, 2pts)
TBG v etern (tbg, 3pts)

This section is out of 27.

And for bonus points, (old replays of) Shadow vs...
ako (both brought it, 5pts)
Soul King (2pts)
lbn (3 ig)
Esteb4n (3)
diego (5)

And the Shadow part is out of 18. Both combined is 45. If you got 15/45 then you probably mono guessed boots and got nothing else right. I did this after picking the replays and got 34/45, which if you subtract the 15 items points is 19/30 teras/sets right. So my memory either sucks or this is really hard to do.

The point of all this is, you can't guess what it's running on preview. On top of that, there are a lot of people who wisped non-tera fire SD sets and got away with it in the ZUWC replays. If you wisp into tera fire, you've given glast at least 1 free KO. And yeah, this is probably an oversimplification of all of this. I'm open to hearing your counterpoints to this if you disagree with the sentiments I'm trying to express, because I like using this mon and winning.

tldr ban

 

[plznostep]

hey guys uh i lost my horse his name is Glue, can anyone help me find him

would appreciate if you find him thanks <3

Anyway uh my thoughts on Glastrier.

To start with the positives, I think Glastrier is a great blanket check on a lot of bulky offense teams and I think that is valuable to have in the meta since it seems like there are 1000 different viable wallbreakers in builder but maybe thats just me

But Glastrier also has like 0 actual counters it feels for Curse or Swords Dance combined and guessing the set is nightmarish, especially with the Terastallization up for debate. Because of that, I don't think Glastrier is particularly healthy to have around and thus would like to see it go personally.

 

[JDIZZLE2008]

Hello I would like to put this horse down

The horse counters too much mespirt gone because they carry Tera dark crunch. A rock type close combat coverage is good but it has too much coverage at too little cost of running it.

 

[Praise The Salt]

First time getting suspect reqs, but this menace needs to be stopped. I'm a bit unsure why this mon has been allowed for this long. It basically blanket checks or trades with the entire metagame and is one of the cheesiest last mons ever. Let's get this guy out of here so we can get back to being creative in the builder.

 

[Cold07]

Glastrier has consistently felt overwhelming in both builder and gameplay. Honestly, this demon doesn't belong to ZU off raw stats alone. A Pokemon with 100 / 130 / 110 bulk and base 145 Attack is fundamentally far beyond what this tier is designed to handle. What pushes it over the edge for me is how once positioned safely, it can very easily claim a KO and begin snowballing with Chilling Neigh boosts, turning already limited counterplay into basically nothing.

A ZUWC game from my teammate showing Glastrier snowballing in a real game

Vioz vs Plague

I even used this incredibly dumb-looking Trick Room team to qualify for ZU Ladder Tour, and it honestly just showcased how absurd Glastrier can be, picking up one KO, and instantly going out of control with Chilling Neigh boosts. Funnily enough, the only Pokemon this team struggled against was Glastrier itself (or absurd cteam Pokemons like Torkoal), which honestly says enough about how broken it is in the current tier. Even outside of dedicated TR, the fact that Glastrier can abuse Tera to flip matchups vs would be checks and get past them is insane.

I am a bit lazy to go further into detail, but this mon is without a doubt far too broken for the tier.

 

[kriegueur]

I hate playing 10 ladder games a day but yapping is pretty easy so I can at least do that :

Lettuce was spitting btw, if you need more people against glast just imagine your favorite player copy pasting his post and profit.

The ice type is good offensively, this mon has 145 base attack, what are you truly switching in ? Here are my answers. You can switch in Froslass and try to burn, this works if it's not tera fire or not restalk. You can send in weezing and burn, weezing also can run haze (just run it, you'll be wishing you did once the horse inevitably pops up) so other than it's lack of reliable recovery, weezing does decent but doesn't really do damage back either, and the fire tera problem still exists. Orthworm is actually does great into rest sets but not so much into 3 attack sets unless you tera yourself. You can also send a encore user hoping it clicks SD.

All this has been said but I want to add a couple things. First of all the fact that our best fire type (charizard) doesn't resist ice does not help in beating this mon offensively. You can do Pyroar but the lion can't afford to click will o wisp or roar (does it even get roar ? It should). The second thing I noticed is that Poliwrath is picking up, call me crazy but this mon only picks up when it's needed to handle some bs, just like with Floatzel (the clawitzer discussion is too late to be had but proves my point as well anyways).

Side note about phazing because why not. There aren't that many mons that can realistically phaze it out. The obvious candidate is zard, and then like maybe camerupt, maybe crocalor, eelektross ig, and all of these might only be true at +1 and then you're cooked regardless. On top of that, glastrier is actually great at being a last mon and then what are you doing ? Yeah. I will say that the previously mentionned weezing and articuno can haze it decently well.

Glastrier is a tera hog though, the truly best way to beat it is to pressure your opponent into burning their tera on something else, which roughly translates to getting a strong offensive piece on the field before your opponent. In a way, Glastrier strongly participates in SV ZU being stupidly offensive in a bad way that reduces the startegic depth of the tier. Technically saying this is bad is subjective, so I'll just say I think this is a terrible thing. Also this thing can run so many different tera types, you could probably justify any of the 17 types except ice, you're not predicting anything, see lettuce's little game.

sing it with me :
I'm gonna take my horse to the ban list,
we're gonna
thriiiiiiiive went it will be gone

BAN

(I tried remaking the one goku meme)

 

[Meth Master]

Sir another pro ban post has hit the zu forums. Ive been saying horse is busted for a real long while, i dont even have anything funny to say about it its not an interesting mon it doesnt do something because of a unique ability or movepool. Its just pure raw stats that let it do whatever it wants, it has so many viable sets its insane you barely have to think.

Every set i can think of

4A
SD 3A
2A restalk
Curse+Rest 2a
cursetalk+stab
CB
(AV although its more niche i have used it very rarely to some success)

Combine this with 5 viable tera types and a good variety of viable items this mon can be dnite levels of bullshit. Pretty much everythinf said before me i agree with for the most part. I just think this guys dumb and has to go

 

[BaitWiz]

I really don’t have it in me to make a full blown post and I’m busy job hunting + doing other stuff so can’t rlly get reqs, but

Glast is really good at trading 1:1 with basically the entire tier and it’s good enough that I’ve considered squads built around giving glastrier two or even three lives (hwish mesprit + hwish shaymin) due to how strong it is in the past. If Glastrier had a Tera type it was forced into or one set that was clearly above the rest it’d be reasonable to deal with, but in the current day and age you can prep with glast in mind and still lose to it. (see MDB vs Diego in ZUCL, where a team with Charizard and Weezing almost completely hard lost to resttalk glastrier if MDB hadn’t gotten bailed by hurricane confusion self hit)

Glast is a pretty clear ban to me, there’s not really a great reason not to run Mr. 1:1’s the entire tier on every team

 

[lettuce]

Tera can be accounted for and is punishable.

Can you elaborate on this a little more? In my experience, Glastrier specifically with tera is very difficult to account for and punish. Whether I'm trying to counter Glastrier with a fighting type like Hitmontop or a special attacker like Charizard or Jolteon, how would you suggest I cover for potential tera types like Poison or Fire?

I think that Glastrier sets itself apart from other mons with insane stats, tera, and setup like Regirock because it doesn't NEED to set up. There are very few pokemon on the viability rankings that resist ice without being weak to common coverage in Fighting and Ground, and most of our defensive options do not have reliable recovery and rely on burning non-tera fire or non-rest+curse Glastrier to check it.

 

[Cold07]

Yes, it has stats, tera and setup. But these aren't enough to justify a ban. Outside of Tera, Charizard, Hitmontop, and Magneton (as well as Regirock and Orthworm if they can get an Iron Defense in) have great odds against the horse.

I don't think relying on answers "Outside of Tera" is a good counterplay when Glastrier is naturally going to tera 75% of the games and Glastrier teams are built around enabling that. Examples like Magneton and non-Wisp Charizard are shaky in practice, since Magneton just drops to High Horsepower while Charizard cannot even OHKO Glastrier from full and risks taking massive damage back. The issue is not whether answers technically exist on paper, but whether they can consistently and realistically handle Glastrier once Tera is factored in.

One suggestion is that the stats are just too high. But why did it end up in ZU in the first place? It's too slow for higher tiers and opponents can take advantage of its speed, and that applies here in Zero Used as well.

Saying Glastrier is balanced because it is “too slow for higher tiers” is honestly funny when the tier right above ZU literally has Milotic clicking Scald to burn it and Haze to remove boosts, while NU has even more counterplay. The difference is that higher tiers actually have the defensive tools and utility mons needed to consistently punish and contain it.

The main ways to exploit Glastrier's low Speed are through moves like Taunt, Encore, and Haze. The problem is that PU simply has far more viable users of these moves than ZU does. Even when ZU has access to some of these options, they often cannot take Glastrier’s attacks or lack reliable recovery to do it throughout a game. That difference in defensive tools is a huge reason why Glastrier feels far more oppressive here than it does in higher tiers.

Rocky helmet mons like Skuntank (w/aftermath) as well as hazards put Glastrier in range of the many fighting types in the tier, and being aware of the opponent's option to Tera can help with counterplay before taking it out with stronger choiced mons if a sack is necessary. Tera can be accounted for and is punishable.

Yeah, Rocky Helmet sounds amazing until you realize Glastrier’s main Ice STAB is Icicle Crash, which does not even make contact. Incredible analysis there.

More seriously though, I really disagree with the idea that Tera is easy to account for or consistently punish. As Lettuce already mentioned, no single Pokemon realistically covers Glastrier’s STAB, coverage options, and potential Tera types like Electric, Fire, or Poison all at once. And like I mentioned in my own post, once Glastrier gets going and starts picking up boosts, stopping it becomes difficult without sacrificing multiple mons or relying on very specific positioning or predictions.

I hate to call it a skill issue, but from what I've seen in the tier, it just sets up and goes for the sweep. If we keep banning without choosing to adjust, where do we draw the line between what tier changes are healthy and what tier changes are unhealthy? With respect to setup, it's a one-trick pony. While I agree that Tera and other factors can make it threatening, straight experience on the ZU ladder demonstrates to me that it's not at the calibre that would warrant a ban.

Yeah bro, by that logic we should just drop Tyranitar to ZU because “people can adjust”.

The thing is, some mons are simply unreasonable to adjust to, and Glastrier absolutely falls into that category. This mon is a demon that one of the best checks to it is, quite literally, Glastrier itself. And calling it a “one-trick pony” is also just wrong when SD 3 Attacks, Curse RestTalk, 2 Attacks RestTalk, 4 Attacks, and even Endure Custap sets have seen tournament usage and success. Calling Glastrier a one-trick pony is like calling Mesprit the Calyrex-Shadow Rider of ZU.

And respectfully, “experience from the ZU ladder” is not exactly convincing when half the games are against stuff like Pignite / Gabite / Ariados cores.

 

[Tuthur]

Thanks for the response. You’ve brought up several strong points about the tier’s ecosystem, and I genuinely respect the perspective and the detailed breakdown.

First, fair catch on the Rocky Helmet interaction. I was thinking too broadly about punishing its contact coverage on the switch, but you are entirely right that its primary STAB bypassing Helmet is a massive factor. I also had a good laugh at the Pignite/Gabite core comment—fair play for checking this specific account's ladder history, which is definitely sparse. That being said, my perspective is built on playing against the top-end meta and the highly optimized builder structures you described, so we are definitely evaluating the same tier environment.

Regarding that environment, your point about the utility gap is well taken. ZU lacks the defensive infrastructure of PU and NU, and I concede that trying to defensively out-stall or cleanly wall Glastrier here is incredibly challenging.

You made the excellent point that Tera makes Glastrier difficult to reliably check defensively because no single Pokémon can cover all its potential Tera types (Poison, Electric, Fire, etc.) alongside its STAB and coverage. I agree completely: if we are looking for a single, perfect defensive switch-in to handle a Terastallized Glastrier, the tier barely has answers.

But I strongly disagree that a lack of perfect defensive answers makes it ban-worthy, because trying to passively wall it is playing into its hands. The counterplay to Glastrier is not found in a 1v1 defensive vacuum; it's found in structural pressure.

Glastrier almost always has to take a hit before it moves. Even with 100/130/110 bulk, it cannot bypass the action economy. To set up and claim a Chilling Neigh boost, it usually has to survive two full turns of uncontested damage. If we force the Glastrier player to burn Tera defensively, that is a massive resource commitment. A Pokémon that requires flawless hazard removal, slow pivoting to enter safely, and the team’s Tera resource just to function is a structural bottleneck. Pressuring its enablers and forcing Tera out early is the intended counterplay.

To address my previous comment: when I called it a "one-trick pony," I wasn't referring to its exact movesets. I acknowledge that SD, Curse, and Custap sets dictate different micro-interactions. I was referring to its macro role. Its gameplan is completely linear. It is a slow, physical breaker/sweeper that attempts to snowball. It forces a specific game state.

This ultimately brings me back to my core question: where do we draw the line between healthy centralization and unhealthy oppression? Centralization forces adaptation. If we ban threats that demand precise positioning, prediction, and strategic sacrificing from the opponent, we may risk sanitizing the tier. Glastrier is a behemoth, but it operates within the strict, exploitable confines of its speed, initial typing and Tera's opportunity cost.

If the council determines that Terastallization makes it too easy to flip its defensive weaknesses, then perhaps Glastrier does need to go for the sake of current ZU's health. Still, I worry that if we ban it, we are simply treating the symptom of Terastallization rather than addressing how the mechanic inherently breaks bulky, setup-reliant sweepers in lower tiers.

Appreciate the discussion and the corrections—definitely gives me a lot to think about regarding where ZU goes from here.

Using Glastrier doesn't require precise positioning. It's playing against it that does, because this Pokémon just outstatd everything in the tier and we lack good Ice resists.

Banning Tera is out of the question. It's not allowed in the tiering framework for official tiers and ZU is sticking to it.

Overall, I've made myself vocal on the state of SV ZU. This tier has too many offensive threats that are too hard to switch into. Glastrier is both one of the best Pokémon to trade against those, and one of the hardest Pokémon to switch into, which makes it weird, but we gotta start somewhere and Glastriers ban is probably necessary.

 

[Cold07]

A Pokémon that requires flawless hazard removal

Glastrier almost always has to take a hit before it moves. Even with 100/130/110 bulk, it cannot bypass the action economy. To set up and claim a Chilling Neigh boost, it usually has to survive two full turns of uncontested damage. If we force the Glastrier player to burn Tera defensively, that is a massive resource commitment. A Pokémon that requires flawless hazard removal, slow pivoting to enter safely, and the team’s Tera resource just to function is a structural bottleneck. Pressuring its enablers and forcing Tera out early is the intended counterplay.

I also think Glastrier’s bulk is being understated here. It's not difficult to position it into games, whether that is through slow pivots or straight up hard switching it in on weaker offensive threats, because of how absurd 100 / 130 / 110 bulk actually is. Moreover, Glastrier does not even need boosts to start making progress. Most offensive Pokemon already take massive damage from its STAB + coverage, while Chilling Neigh boosts simply let it muscle past even further. And burning Tera is not much of a downside when it often ends with this behemoth taking 2-4 Pokemon with it. “Just pressure it offensively” sounds much easier in theory than it actually feels in practice, especially when Glastrier can force huge damage simply by existing on the field. This becomes even more problematic with sets like Curse + RestTalk, which can completely overwhelm unprepared teams.Yes, you can revenge kill Glastrier after it claims multiple KOs, but at that point it has usually already done enough damage for teammates to clean up the game.

To address my previous comment: when I called it a "one-trick pony," I wasn't referring to its exact movesets. I acknowledge that SD, Curse, and Custap sets dictate different micro-interactions. I was referring to its macro role. Its gameplan is completely linear. It is a slow, physical breaker/sweeper that attempts to snowball. It forces a specific game state.

I honestly don't think that means much in a tiering discussion. A huge portion of Pokemon in every tier have straightforward goals. The issue is whether the tier has ways to deal with them, and for Glastrier that often doesn't feel true. It is going to do the same thing every game, but the problem is that the tier struggles to stop it from doing so.

This ultimately brings me back to my core question: where do we draw the line between healthy centralization and unhealthy oppression? Centralization forces adaptation. If we ban threats that demand precise positioning, prediction, and strategic sacrificing from the opponent, we may risk sanitizing the tier. Glastrier is a behemoth, but it operates within the strict, exploitable confines of its speed, initial typing and Tera's opportunity cost.

If the council determines that Terastallization makes it too easy to flip its defensive weaknesses, then perhaps Glastrier does need to go for the sake of current ZU's health. Still, I worry that if we ban it, we are simply treating the symptom of Terastallization rather than addressing how the mechanic inherently breaks bulky, setup-reliant sweepers in lower tiers.

I do think that is an interesting topic overall, but it probably fits better in a discussion thread rather than specifically determining whether current ZU Glastrier is healthy. At the end of the day, every tier has Pokemon that cross the line from “strong” into “unreasonably difficult to handle,” and I genuinely think Glastrier belongs in that category.

 

[Tizio]

To be honest i think both glast sets are kinda fine, SD/AOA is a great trade machine but not much more than that, while curse is easily stopped by most distruptors and has to rely on mono stab, so you can't just do a clean sweep if you don't make yourself a good setup first.
But as Lettuce said the real problem is discerning the two from preview, it's not a Mesprit-like scenario where you can go "oh, he has another rocker, so that's most likely np", and playing around both versions trying to preserve the different checks for each one is a real nightmare, and as if this funny guessing game wasn't enough already, you have something like a dozen different viable tera types to take into consideration.

But even worse is how easily you can support this monster in your team, just pair it with something along the lines of a Charizard or a Clawitzer and all of a sudden your opponent cannot carelessly switch their Sableye, Weezing or Froslass in anymore without risking a double, or you can go with a ts/spikestack so they can't switch freely at all, there are very few archetypes that wouldn't appreciate having the ice horse among their ranks.

Tl;dr below:

Spoiler

 

[sinnabyss]

Prob gonna get reqs today or tommorow but wanna share my thoughts first, tldr glast is kinda stupid

i do not think that glast is broken on its own. its slow and has a terrible defensive typing, and many mons can handle it. however, with the way the metagame is at the moment, i think it puts an unhealthy strain both in the builder and in battle. like many have brought up already, its nearly impossible to discern what set a glast is running from team preview. SD, curse, resttalk, and AoA sets have different counterplaying methods, and with a mon like glast, a misplay can easily lead to big damage or a ko. its bulk makes it deceptively hard to ko as well, letting it easily trade up.

the "tera hog" argument is kind of weak in my opinion. glast is an excellent user of tera, and while it often needs it to excel, glast teraing usually leads to it getting a ko or setting up. similarly to its set variety, glast has multiple viable tera types that can easily reverse its losing matchups. tera dragon, ground, water, fairy, fire are all common and can flip different matchups on their head. combine that with its multiple sets and you end up with a mon that requires careful play and multiple checks to properly handle.

glast also makes for an excellent teammate to the many other offensive threats in the tier. mons like sableye, froslass, weezing, and mesprit can help handle most sets, but they often provide easy entry to other mons like zard, clawitzer and skunktank. the tier has so many monstrous breakers and not nearly good enough defensive mons to comfortably handle them all. glast is a nightmare to face for both offensive and bulkier teams alike. i believe banning it is the best course of action for the tier.

also have this glastrier mii i made

 

[t44Torkoal]

I can't get reqs, but I wanna explain my thoughts

is just too strong.

However, this thing is just another slow bulky ice-type, which are never good. The thing IS... its impossible to guess what set the ice horse is running, from aoa, rest talk, swords dance or something like that. It is also quite hard to OHKO it from full health, unless your name is or something like that.

is a great tera user, like running tera water to give itself a much better defensive typing or tera ground to boost high horsepower which can further damage muk or regirock for much more. With its low speed, its also an excellent user of trick room, capable of sweeping games due to its nuclear attack.

While the ice horse has its checks, theres not much to beat it defensively, aside from naclstack, regirock and sableye. can burn it, but if the wisp misses... ouch. Its just too much going around with this horse and I believe banning it is the best direction for this tier. This tier needs a change so thats why. Even charizard fails to counter it since it's not able to switch in on icicle crash.

 

[Lennart]

Made reqs, let's go

In my opinion curse glas seems to be the most oppressive. Sure, there are a few pokemon with encore and or tricking moves but most of these aren't as prevalent and do not like to switch in hard into glas. That means they also have to position themselves to be able to encore with catching icicle crash directly or via resttalk. I needed more attempts than I'd like to admit (playing just before sleeping and falling asleep to time-out or with bad connection is not the best idea) but I messed around with that diego sample and the bulk is absurd.

For reference, if you were to tera dragon glastrier and face defensive abomasnow, you would not even be 2hk0ed, it's not even that close. Even offensive Aboma Sets have to get an unfavorable roll, asumming no hazards and leftovers. I had situations where I would tera dragon and specs jolteon would do about 39% without tera. Even without Tera, it would just stomach hits left, right and center, do massive damage even without investment and be able to clean the game. Best case (if you play against it) with just a pure ice typing, it's able to check stuff like Lilligant, Cryogonal, Whimsicott, Cryogonal, Abomasnow, Skuntank and many more.

Basically it tanks every hit and kills back (again, best case assuming offensive). The thing really pushing Glastrier is an environment in which it can choose to have any type, have basically legendary stats (only lacking speed) alongside the ability to set up and to get an attack boost for every revenge kill. Sure, some tera typings are more common than others but get it wrong or don't consider one specific typing and you will have the pleasure of getting swept.

When it comes to answers, bulky waters are your best bet...SIKE! We are in ZU. Error, none found. Tera Water really bulky Pokemon can work but there is also the prospect of tera fight CC or tera ground with HH. Plus, usually these get chipped rather easily. I think the best option is to have sufficiant pressure and to try to evaluate the set and tera type but it's counterplay rather shaky. Also, correct me If I am wrong, but I don't see it adding a lot of value to the metagame.

 

[BaitWiz]

Voting is now live for the Glastrier suspect test! https://www.smogon.com/tools/suspects/view/214

Voters

OranBerryBlissey10
Lennart
holereeee
Scarf Kricketune
diego
Cold07
Lafell
Platum
Tizio
Praise The Salt
MethMaster4546
plznostep
budgetplayer
PlayaBeavs

Please get votes in before Saturday at 11:59pm UTC-6.

 

[sleid]

an already overwhelming 9/14 votes in the first 12 hours of the suspect to get the horse out of ZU. wow!

Glastrier has already reached the 50%+1 threshold and thus has been banned from SV ZU! Tagging Marty and dhelmise to implement please! Voters, you have until the deadline above to finish your votes. Thank you to all who got reqs!

 

[plznostep]

Clefairy Appreciation Post

---

Introduction

This came out of nowhere but I wanted to give a bit of appreciation to a fun Pokemon I've been using lately in response to some metagame changes, and that is Clefairy.

Firstly; how did I come across Clefairy? Well, in builder, there are three main answers to Charizard + sidegrades that I can think of; Eelektross, Whiscash (or Camerupt, who is shaky in Charizard), and Regirock (or Naclstack).

These answers are all nice but they do share some issues. They all do not have recovery meaning they can be worn down overtime by Charizard + other threats, especially with Will O Wisp involved (Naclstack excluded) and taking hazards (Naclstack shots fired).

They also are commonly used to answer other Pokemon. For example, Whiscash is used to answer Jolteon, Eelektross is a blanket check/pivot into many special attackers, like the aforementioned Jolteon and more, and Regirock is answering physical threats such as Skuntank and Sneasel.

Enter Clefairy. Clefairy is uniquely a Charizard answer who has reliable recovery without Terastallization + an immunity to hazards + utility for use on teams as a general support special wall. If your skeptical, here are some calculations vs Charizard

Charizard Answer

Charizard - Calculations

Clefairy
Timid Charizard:
252 SpA Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 84-99 (24.4 - 28.7%) -- 98.6% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 102-120 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- 9.7% chance to 3HKO

Modest Charizard:
252+ SpA Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 91-108 (26.4 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 111-132 (32.2 - 38.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 3HKO

Eelektross
Timid Charizard:
252 SpA Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 73-87 (19.5 - 23.2%) -- 13.2% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 44-52 (11.7 - 13.9%) -- possible 7HKO

Modest Charizard:
252+ SpA Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 79-94 (21.1 - 25.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 48-57 (12.8 - 15.2%) -- possible 6HKO

Whiscash
Timid Charizard:
252 SpA Charizard Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Whiscash: 58-69 (13.7 - 16.3%) -- possible 9HKO
252 SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Whiscash: 142-168 (33.5 - 39.7%) -- 86% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Modest Charizard:
252+ SpA Charizard Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Whiscash: 63-75 (14.8 - 17.7%) -- possible 8HKO
252+ SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Whiscash: 156-184 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Regirock
Timid Charizard
252 SpA Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Regirock: 51-61 (14 - 16.7%) -- possible 8HKO
252 SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Regirock: 63-75 (17.3 - 20.6%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Regirock: 184-218 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Modest Charizard:
252+ SpA Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Regirock: 57-67 (15.6 - 18.4%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ SpA Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Regirock: 57-67 (15.6 - 18.4%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ SpA Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Regirock: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Naclstack
Timid Charizard
252 SpA Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Naclstack: 41-48 (12.6 - 14.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Naclstack: 50-59 (15.4 - 18.2%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Naclstack: 146-172 (45 - 53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Modest Charizard
252+ SpA Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Naclstack: 45-53 (13.8 - 16.3%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Naclstack: 54-65 (16.6 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Naclstack: 160-190 (49.3 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

In the tier, these are definitely some of the most impressive calculations against Charizard available, especially with the fact that Clefairy doesn't take Hazard Damage. Due to this, Clefairy's calculation performance is close if not better than Whiscash's, someone who is known as a one of the better Charizard answers. With hazard's being as prevalent as they are right now, this is a great trait to have + Magic Guard also means that Clefairy doesn't care about burn damage additionally while taking Charizards hits. In return, Clefairy can use Thunder Wave to paralyse Charizard, neutralising it and can use Knock Off to remove Charizard's boots.

This takes pressure off the aforementioned special checks seen above for bulky offense and balance teams alike, especially since Clefairy continues to answer these threats due to reliable recovery in Moonlight. Clefairy admittedly has a few poor matchups on the special side such as Magneton and Venusaur, but there are some other notable matchups like being a soft check to Clawitizer

Clawitzer Soft-Check

Clawitizer - Calculations

Clefairy
Timid Clawitizer
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 132-156 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Clawitzer Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 176-208 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Modest Clawitizer:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 145-172 (42.1 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Clawitzer Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 194-230 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Eelektross
Timid Clawitzer
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 117-138 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 109-129 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Tera Dragon Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 163-193 (43.5 - 51.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Modest Clawitzer
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Tera Dragon Clawitzer Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 127-151 (33.9 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 119-141 (31.8 - 37.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Tera Dragon Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 178-211 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Articuno
Timid Clawitzer
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Articuno: 133-157 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Articuno: 125-148 (32.5 - 38.5%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Tera Dragon Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Articuno: 187-222 (48.6 - 57.8%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

Modest Clawitzer
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Articuno: 145-172 (37.7 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Tera Dragon Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Articuno: 205-243 (53.3 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Note: Articuno outspeeds Clawitizer

Cryogonal
Timid Clawitzer
Defensive
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 160-190 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 152-179 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Tera Dragon Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 228-268 (62.6 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Tera Dragon Clawitzer Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 286-338 (78.5 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Offensive
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 160-190 (53.1 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 152-179 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Tera Dragon Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 228-268 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Tera Dragon Clawitzer Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 286-338 (95 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Dragon Clawitzer: 204-242 (72 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Modest Clawitzer
Defensive
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 177-208 (48.6 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 166-196 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Tera Dragon Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 249-294 (68.4 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 314-370 (86.2 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Offensive
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Tera Dragon Clawitzer Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 177-208 (58.8 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 166-196 (55.1 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Tera Dragon Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 249-294 (82.7 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 314-370 (104.3 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In comparison to Clawitizers other defensive "answers", Clefairy is one of the few special walls in the tier able to dodge a 2HKO from its main two moves in Water Pulse + Dragon Pulse including Terastallization. It's existence alone also disincentivize clicking Dragon Pulse. If Clefairy comes in on Water Pulse, it is usually able to Paralyse + Knock Off Clawitizer, making it much easier to deal with for its teammates. Sludge Bomb/Flash Cannon can be difficult however alongside Water Pulse confusion, which is what makes it more of a softcheck.

Conclusion

If I were to rank Clefairy now, I think it's somewhere around B- to B. It's a similar Pokemon to Articuno where it has excellent matchups into precise Pokemon but otherwise has a few core mu's that makes it a supporting special wall rather than your main one.

TLDR:
Clefairy fills a niche as a Charizard answer who has reliable recovery without Terastallization with unique traits such as Magic Guard for hazards and good utility moves alongside, making it good support for special walls on Balance/BO.

Here's a fun Clefairy team I've been using featuring a Clefairy core if you would like to try it out

Clefairy + Camerupt Balance


​

 

[Meth Master]

Now that im out of zuwc (i went 4-1 please zupl managers i beg draft me) i can finally talk my shit about some mons that may be a bit silly

Knock off

Do i think skunk is broken, no however if you claimed it was i wouldnt think youre crazy. Its kinda bulky its pretty fast it hits hard enough nothing special. But the main issue with this mon is how hard stab knock offs can hit with actual investment along with yk knocking your item. Very little in this tier actual likes tanking stab dark moves and even less likes losijg its item. The fighting types of the tier are regularly choiced or are life orbed. While the singular fairy loses its specs or dies to gunk. Along with the fact ground is an extremely rare offensive type this thing can be pretty hard to get rid of withiut lettinf half your team get knocked. Like i said tho i dont think its broken

The cooler sneasel-h

Fighting and poison is really hard to check. Mesprit can only take a few gunks before cc is the most spamable move ever. And its voverage of knock and eq make it far more threatening than the competition of sneasel. While i dont think its the biggest deal in game in the builder i often fijd myself thinking "wow this loses to one of croaks sets" and having to adjust slighty or scrap the whole thing and it can be annoying. Do i think its broke not really but i could be swayed.

Lets go gambling

Man i want this fucker gone. Ever since lanturn and lax left this thing broke and has only been getting worse. When it was just stabs+scorxhing sands +status move it was fine. Then people started running focus blast and modest and its all been downhill. Anything that checks fire+flying gets shredding by fblast and modest only misses out on a few niche mons like houndoom and band basc which arent too common. Its not enouhh to just resist one of fire or flying because zard will just break with a different move and win. Sending in cash? Dang you got confused and died to a self hit. Or you got roared on switch and no cant take two hurricanes due to hazards. Its way too fucking fast for having a borderline unresisted set amd the only way to chrck it is offensively. Which usually is fine but conpared to the similarly hard hitter claw. Zard is very fast often requiring a scarfer or a less useful mon just for the sake of speed. Not much else i can say about this fucker other than hes impossible to not sack a mon to whenecer he shows up

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-2626796104-a906wpixqjerf2smu7k0g0vxd25lms1pw
(Yes i lost this bit as we stated it was only cuz croak crit. I may look for more exanples later but its all the same shit in different fonts really)

 

[lettuce]

When usage stats dropped, I typed up a post then didn't hit post because I didn't want to scream out into the world "+2 LO CROAK IS CRACKED, USE IT." I also started to dislike Charizard more so I had time to add that on.

part 1, usage stats:

fun things that don't really matter

1.
| 27 | Rotom | 8.02046% | 714 | 3.728% | 638 | 3.965% |
| 34 | Appletun | 5.54541% | 744 | 3.885% | 620 | 3.853% |
ApplinCrumble stays winning

2.
| 15 | Houndoom | 10.16206% | 1292 | 6.746% | 1083 | 6.730% |
| 22 | Gurdurr | 8.62610% | 843 | 4.402% | 721 | 4.480% |
Both of these surprised me, I don't think that Houndoom generally has a lot of strengths over Charizard and Pyroar since it's slower than both of them, but I guess ladder knows more about the dog than I do. Gurdurr is the one that surprises me more, since I never see it, I never use it, its got 8.6% usage, and I'm not even certain if it's on the VR or not.

3.
| 49 | Camerupt | 3.64006% | 890 | 4.647% | 786 | 4.884% |
what u mean 3.6% usage I thought this guy was a LOT more common than this. I guess Whiscash stays winning.

4. (from here)
stall.............59.59413%
lol
I don't know how this number is calculated and my own experience says that stall is NOT 59% of the metagame since true 6-mon stall is rare because of how unreliable our defensive guys tend to be. I'm too lazy to ask someone else abt this.

5. (From here, ctrl + f is your friend if you want to look for something specific, but also good luck with ctrl + f because you need it)

+----------------------------------------+
| Froslass                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| Raw count: 1693                        |
| Avg. weight: 0.34666723047936293       |
| Viability Ceiling: 81                  |
+----------------------------------------+
| Abilities                              |
| Cursed Body 100.000%                   |
+----------------------------------------+
| Items                                  |
| Heavy-Duty Boots 79.905%               |
| Focus Sash 12.552%                     |
| Choice Specs 3.318%                    |
| Other 4.224%                           |
+----------------------------------------+
| Spreads                                |
| Timid:252/0/200/0/0/56 18.147%         | (297 spe)
| Bold:96/0/252/0/0/160 15.270%          | (296 spe)
| Timid:0/0/0/252/4/252 13.458%          | (350 spe)
| Timid:80/0/252/0/0/176 12.523%         | (330 spe)
| Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 8.456%           | (350 spe)
| Jolly:188/0/252/0/0/68 8.166%          | (300 spe)
| Other 23.980%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves                                  |
| Spikes 94.077%                         |
| Will-O-Wisp 83.615%                    |
| Pain Split 66.156%                     |
| Ice Beam 50.550%                       |
| Hex 33.435%                            |
| Shadow Ball 14.499%                    |
| Destiny Bond 13.739%                   |
| Taunt 10.150%                          |
| Triple Axel 9.663%                     |
| Poltergeist 9.276%                     |
| Other 14.840%                          |
+----------------------------------------+
| Tera Types                             |
| Water 31.958%                          |
| Fairy 26.704%                          |
| Ghost 21.048%                          |
| Ice 12.076%                            |
| Dark 4.285%                            |
| Other 3.928%                           |
+----------------------------------------+
| Teammates                              |
| Skuntank 65.216%                       |
| Toxicroak 41.563%                      |
| Charizard 40.285%                      |
| Whiscash 34.219%                       |
| Glastrier 30.661%                      |
| Mesprit 25.041%                        |
| Toedscruel 14.882%                     |
| Basculin 14.096%                       |
| Hitmontop 12.859%                      |
| Regirock 11.717%                       |
+----------------------------------------+

I think that the Froslass stats are specifically interesting to look at, since it's a mon where I don't think there's a community consensus on how to EV it. I lowkey forgot that snow cloak was both its only other ability and banned, so I thought it was interesting that it has 100% cursed body usage when it's the only legal option. The teammates section is especially fun to look at, since who would've known that formed a good team? I was also expecting there to either be more or less of a consensus on tera types, but it makes sense that Water, Fairy, and 'idk what to put ill just pick one of the existing ones' are the top 4. (we're gonna ignore the 12% sash and 3% choice specs usage for that joke). I didn't expect the most common speed for a Froslass to reach to be ~300, but given the lack of relevant non-scarf mons between 300 and 328 (and 300 to 350 really), I guess it makes sense.

things that would've risen if we didnt cancel rises

reminder: NONE OF THIS IS REAL RISES AREN'T HAPPENING. But I think it's fun to look at this stuff and pretend our tier is gonna be ravaged when in reality drops are gonna treat us well in the next 6 months (unless NU takes longer to drop terrain).

NU Usage:
| 31 | Uxie | 7.503% |
| 42 | Whimsicott | 5.488% |
| 43 | Brute Bonnet | 5.338% |
I'm only including Uxie to show why Mesprit has so much usage in PU. Uxie rose in the last shifts of the gen, which is the only reason we have Mesprit still. And I have no idea why Whimsicott and Brute Bonnet are getting usage up there, but they both definitely have a place in ZU and would be missed.

PU Usage:
| 31 | Mesprit | 7.437% |
| 38 | Venusaur | 5.634% |
| 44 | Whimsicott | 5.073% |
| 45 | Brute Bonnet | 4.957% |
And yeah, if shifts weren't frozen we'd probably lose Mesprit and Venusaur. Mesprit would hurt, and Venusaur might be OK since we'd be getting vileplume at the same time. And I have no idea why Whimsicott and Brute Bonnet are getting usage up there, but they both definitely have a place in ZU and would be missed.

drops speculation

And now for the fun part: Drops (and mons that could drop in another world but definitely have too high usage):

From NU:
| 33 | Braviary | 7.197% |
| 34 | Grafaiai | 7.023% |
| 52 | Thwackey | 3.775% |

Braviary and Grafaiai are probably the only 2 mons in NU that I think would reasonably have a chance to drop to ZU, except for Terrainless Thwackey. Unless Braviary started getting used outside of ladder there since the last time i checked in on the tier, it's still not that viable in NU. Grafaiai was also a terrain mon, and unless they switch terrains, I would expect Grafaiai to drop eventually.

From PU:
| 8 | Coalossal | 13.899% |
| 39 | Hitmonlee | 5.599% |
| 46 | Palossand | 4.892% |
| 47 | Snorlax | 4.050% |
| 48 | Mismagius | 3.833% |
| 52 | Vileplume | 3.205% |
| 53 | Passimian | 3.188% |
| 63 | Frosmoth | 2.372% |
Coalossal is PU's ladder mon, we're never getting it. Hitmonlee is an unburden guy who has been hovering around ~5ish% each month, so it's a mon I tend to look at since it could drop if it has an off-month (it hasn't). Palossand is close to the line, it's still .3% above the shifts cutoff, and it's a defensive ghost with recovery so it would be good here if it got less usage. I included Frosmoth even though it doesn't have a full month of usage. It probably won't drop, but you never know. The last 4, Snorlax, Mismagius, Vileplume, and Passimian, would be very cool to have and are the 4 that are projected to actually drop. Snorlax has been here before, and it was our most reliable special wall. Mismagius was kinda mid the last time it was here, but it's faster than Zard so it won't be unusable. Passimian would join mesp and venu at our crowded base-80 speed, but it was the most reliable scarfer we had. And Vileplume is Venu if it got strength sap but was slightly worse (in my opinion). I don't think it'll be nearly as good as venu, but it can't be bad.

part 2, toxicroak:

Frankly, the mon has a lot of great traits - 106 atk, Dry Skin to which lets it be nearly Basculin-immune, the fantastic poison/fighting STAB combo, Knock Off for Mesprit and any Ghosts trying to switch in on gunk/cc, Sucker Punch for faster and/or weakened threats on Swords Dance sets, and Earthquake to hit Poison-types. If you like pretending that Whiscash doesn't resist poison, you can also run NP sets.

Those are hard to find on just one mon. If you mash up Primeape and Skuntank, who are both pretty good on their own, you still don't have everything that Toxicroak does, since neither gets SD, and Defiant/Aftermath are not Dry Skin.

The combination of all those traits lets Toxicroak get away with this:

calcs vs physdef guys and tinkatuff i guess

deleted:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sandslash: 298-352 (84.1 - 99.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mesprit: 333-393 (91.4 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Dark Toxicroak Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 308-364 (101.3 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tinkatuff: 304-359 (91 - 107.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

has *a* chance, with tera if it needs it:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Dark Toxicroak Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 243-289 (79.9 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 140-165 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Dark Toxicroak Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Orthworm: 231-274 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Dark Toxicroak Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Regirock: 175-207 (48 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sandaconda: 273-321 (78.4 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I think there are 2 reasons why this mon feels somewhat manageable to right now. First, SD croak has to pick between Knock and Sucker Punch, unless you're insane enough to drop a STAB. Croak's 295 speed is great, but Charizard is sitting at 328 and is ready to land hurricane or eat your tera. There are several mons faster than Croak that can and will revenge it if needed. Second, you have to run Life Orb. Sometimes you're on the 50% of teams last month where you need a Scarf Croak (sry if the link doesn't work on non-chrome browsers, but it HLs the stat), which fits CC/Gunk/Knock/EQ and is harder to switch into but easier to exploit. I've also had teams where I wanted my croak to knock more through a game, and life orb chip wasn't appealing to me. Especially with our next best scarfers being like Basculin or Primeape who have notable flaws, I think there's an opportunity cost in running SD > Scarf Croak, and I think it's fine in the meta, if a little annoying.


part 3, charizard:

When prepping for vs US South in WC, beavs used exclusively modest Charizard so I had to assume it was coming in every slot, lest we lose to it. Modest (252+ SpA) Charizard has the fun quirk of turning Hurricane on Whiscash from a 3HKO in a 33-39% 'lefties lets me wall this' way to a 3HKO in a 36-43% 'dang I didn't have over 70% HP remaining gg' way. The Charizard switch-ins that West brought that week were Clefairy (which ran into Perrserker LOL), Regi + Whiscash on a team fat enough to absorb the grass weakness, Flareon, and Eelektross on a team that could afford its lack of longevity. The 'better' stuff like a solo Whiscash/Camel or Naclstack just loses to modest zard in practice. I'm not sure if Clefairy and Flareon count as meta innovation or desperation to cover a banworthy threat, but I am resorting to them so I have something that isn't 3HKO'd by a Charizard for free. Especially without a good blanket special wall like Snorlax, I think that Charizard is banworthy, mostly since i'm feeling like Clefairy and Flareon are more circumstances of Charizard than the meta at large (although I may be wrong).

 

[diego]

we're holding a metagame survey, share your thoughts about the metagame with us!

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responses close at <t:1781496000:F>

 

[t44Torkoal]

Hi. Finished the survey, and I'm gonna be loading up my thoughts:

3.5. This mon isn't actually THAT bad to deal with and the utility it provides is very nice, but its a very annoying mon to deal with. Especially without lax and lanturn in the tier. From wisp support to ground immunity, it can also act as a deterrent for physical attackers, notably sandslash and sandaconda. The 4x rocks weakness blows though so it usually has to run boots.

2. Important glue mon and without it, the tier wouldn't be that fun. Its quite strong with life orb but leftovers is another option. Priority in sucker punch to pick off its biggest weakness, psychic (), is very very nice. I love using this mon and its quite important to the metagame. The defensive utility it also brings is very nice (water immunity on top of healing, tspikes absorber and quad u-turn resist, so it can switch in on predicted u-turns).

2. STAB Knock is very nice to have, and you COULD probably run toxic since hindering walls is quite the thing. Also you could run np sets... lmao, but 71 spa is NOT it and your better off running something like offensive utility, scarf or even band.

2.5. You know why. It has counterplay and toxicroak is quite common (its often switching in on water pulse). Specs set is also prediction reliant for the maximum damage and to hit toxicroak with another coverage move. I would argue tera dragon dpulse is strong and fairies are not common so dragon is a very strong offensive typing in the metagame rn. Personally I don't really think he is banworthy.

I would argue around this but even if its outspeeding everything, and has solid spa boosted by specs and calm mind, specs sets are quite easy to play around with and its prediction reliant. It can't even hit ground-types for super effective anymore now that tera blast ice is gone unfortunately. Its still an excellent mon, don't get me wrong, but it isn't what it once was. Gonna be a 1 from me.

As a result, I think the metagame is personally fine as is, but it COULD be changed... its up to y'all to decide.

 

[lettuce]

I wanted to supplement my 'ban zard' argument with some calcs. It's very hard to account for in the builder because so few things in this tier get Recovery. Our spdef checks to zard have to be bulky enough to not need recovery, and recent innovation in Modest Zard means the bar for what's bulky enough to get away without recovery is much higher.

In case a 3HKO means nothing to you as you look at these calcs, think of it in terms of a zard switching into a Specs Whims. The zard comfortably takes a hit and forces out the whims exactly once. The next time it comes in, or if it's taken a little bit of chip damage, the Charizard is in range to be 2HKO'd by moonblast and therefore can't switch into another Moonblast safely. And remember these are defensive pieces in the meta as you look through the calcs, not offensive guys utilizing a resistance:

ordered from least bulky to most bulky

*=has recovery outside of lefties

252+ SpA Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Regirock: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
* 252+ SpA Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Naclstack: 160-190 (49.3 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Clawitzer: 129-153 (45.5 - 54%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Camerupt: 151-178 (43.8 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Whiscash: 156-184 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
* 252+ SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 118-139 (35.3 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Sandslash: 120-142 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mesprit: 121-144 (33.2 - 39.5%) -- 20.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
* 252+ SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 109-130 (31.6 - 37.7%) -- 92.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Charizard Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 127-150 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 79-94 (21.1 - 25.1%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

And here's what has to watch out for EQ:
0 Atk Charizard Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Flareon: 188-222 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Charizard Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Muk: 158-186 (38.1 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

also i never run AV claw and wasn't sure what AV samu ran. Sorry.

If you want to outlast a Charizard without using tera, you have to hope it isn't +SpA if you want to use anything Mesprit or above on the list. Flareon stands out since it gets Wish, but if you run into EQ zard it's just as reliable as Regirock. And I'm assuming +SpA Mild/Rash Flamethrower + Hurricane + Focus Blast + EQ zard because it's the scariest set to account for. There's also no opportunity cost to not running +Spe zard. Without the nature boost, zard hits 299 speed which is above non-chioced Toxicroak. The things you miss out on in the 300-328 range are mons like Primeape, Basculin, Houndoom, Morpeko, and the speed tie with Jolly zard. Of those, the one that matters the most is Jolly Zard, since everyone else is either Scarfed, bad, or loses to Jolly zard and might not risk staying in if +SpA isn't confirmed.

If you think this mon is fine and that the answer to my problem is stacking multiple zard answers on a team, resorting to Clefairy balance, or spamming Muk/Eel, I'll give you the stacking checks if you think that's where the meta needs to go, I'd prefer a different direction but OK. For the others, I'd like to remind you Clefairy is C-tier, ask you the last time you used Muk, and point out that Eel's biggest boon is being able pivot into something else.

I put this mon at a 5 on the survey. If a mon is going to make me feel like all our special walls in the A-ranks are unusable, I'd rather it be one that doesn't also outspeed the majority of the unboosted metagame.