Metagame NP: ZU Stage 4 - More is Enough - Gallade and Turtonator Banned @37

[5gen]

The graphic and hide tag below say it all, ZU received over 100 new Pokemon. The power level is on a whole other planet than it was just yesterday. Have fun in the chaos.

In terms of how this affects ZU, tiering decisions will be on hold for however long the TLs and council deem necessary. There is nothing to do but wait and get used to the metagame and see which Pokemon are the absolutely broken of the bunch. I would prefer if no one posted about calling for quick bans for the first two weeks or so. That being said, the first few weeks are going to be chaotic and fun, and it would be really fun to see people post teams, sets, and Pokemon that they have been enjoying.

Also, Drednaw, Ludicolo, Silvally-Electric, Swoobat, and Thwackey are unbanned from ZU. Tagging The Immortal to implement, thank you.

Avoid posting one-liners and posts that derail the thread. We will be lenient to start considering the magnitude of the drops, but do not see this as an opportunity to flood the thread with bad posts.

Drops

Ludicolo moved from PU to ZUBL
Silvally-Electric moved from PU to ZUBL
Thwackey moved from PU to ZUBL
Abomasnow moved from PU to ZU
Accelgor moved from PU to ZU
Alcremie moved from PU to ZU
Altaria moved from PU to ZU
Appletun moved from PU to ZU
Audino moved from PU to ZU
Aurorus moved from PU to ZU
Basculin moved from PU to ZU
Butterfree moved from PU to ZU
Carbink moved from PU to ZU
Carracosta moved from PU to ZU
Centiskorch moved from PU to ZU
Cinccino moved from PU to ZU
Clawitzer moved from PU to ZU
Coalossal moved from PU to ZU
Cofagrigus moved from PU to ZU
Cramorant moved from PU to ZU
Cryogonal moved from PU to ZU
Ditto moved from PU to ZU
Drampa moved from PU to ZU
Dugtrio-Alola moved from PU to ZU
Dusknoir moved from PU to ZU
Eldegoss moved from PU to ZU
Electivire moved from PU to ZU
Exeggutor moved from PU to ZU
Exeggutor-Alola moved from PU to ZU
Flapple moved from PU to ZU
Flareon moved from PU to ZU
Froslass moved from PU to ZU
Frosmoth moved from PU to ZU
Gallade moved from PU to ZU
Garbodor moved from PU to ZU
Gourgeist-Super moved from PU to ZU
Hitmonchan moved from PU to ZU
Jellicent moved from PU to ZU
Jynx moved from PU to ZU
Kabutops moved from PU to ZU
Kangaskhan moved from PU to ZU
Kingler moved from PU to ZU
Klinklang moved from PU to ZU
Liepard moved from PU to ZU
Lycanroc moved from PU to ZU
Magmortar moved from PU to ZU
Malamar moved from PU to ZU
Miltank moved from PU to ZU
Morpeko moved from PU to ZU
Noctowl moved from PU to ZU
Omastar moved from PU to ZU
Orbeetle moved from PU to ZU
Palossand moved from PU to ZU
Perrserker moved from PU to ZU
Persian-Alola moved from PU to ZU
Poliwrath moved from PU to ZU
Qwilfish moved from PU to ZU
Rapidash moved from PU to ZU
Regigigas moved from PU to ZU
Rotom moved from PU to ZU
Rotom-Fan moved from PU to ZU
Rotom-Frost moved from PU to ZU
Runerigus moved from PU to ZU
Sandslash moved from PU to ZU
Sawk moved from PU to ZU
Scrafty moved from PU to ZU
Shiftry moved from PU to ZU
Shuckle moved from PU to ZU
Silvally moved from PU to ZU
Silvally-Dark moved from PU to ZU
Silvally-Dragon moved from PU to ZU
Silvally-Fighting moved from PU to ZU
Silvally-Fire moved from PU to ZU
Silvally-Flying moved from PU to ZU
Silvally-Ghost moved from PU to ZU
Silvally-Grass moved from PU to ZU
Silvally-Ground moved from PU to ZU
Silvally-Poison moved from PU to ZU
Silvally-Psychic moved from PU to ZU
Silvally-Water moved from PU to ZU
Skuntank moved from PU to ZU
Tauros moved from PU to ZU
Thievul moved from PU to ZU
Throh moved from PU to ZU
Toxicroak moved from PU to ZU
Trevenant moved from PU to ZU
Turtonator moved from PU to ZU
Unfezant moved from PU to ZU
Uxie moved from PU to ZU
Vanilluxe moved from PU to ZU
Vikavolt moved from PU to ZU
Wishiwashi moved from PU to ZU
Clefairy moved from PU to NFE
Corsola-Galar moved from PU to NFE
Ferroseed moved from PU to NFE
Golbat moved from PU to NFE
Gurdurr moved from PU to NFE
Haunter moved from PU to NFE
Kadabra moved from PU to NFE
Magneton moved from PU to NFE
Piloswine moved from PU to NFE
Rhydon moved from PU to NFE
Sneasel moved from PU to NFE
Tangela moved from PU to NFE

 

[gye5]

Tauros here, Is this a joke

 

[5gen]

Credits to Kala for the graphic

Hf everyone

 

[gglrg]

Oh lord please save us im terrified

 

[Not_Dake]

"I hope we don't get anything too crazy"

Foolish me.

 

[Xayah]

This is obviously completely insane (104 drops is completely unheard of on Smogon in general, let alone for us in our short lifespan) so we'll all have to take some time to digest this. Personally, I'm nowhere near ready to write out thoughts on the meta or even any Pokemon at all, as I first have to really register just what drops we got. To do that, this might help:

Drops by type

It lists all drops and unbans of today by type. Let me know if I made any mistake or missed something. The main goal here is to see what the direct competition is and types help with that (though they're nowhere near the end-all be-all). Hopefully it's useful. Perhaps I'll format it nicely later.

 

[kay]

Well this tier looks pretty familiar. Given this tier is pretty much dlc1 NU all over again minus a few things, we have a pretty good idea what the big players in the tier are going to look like so I'll go over my thoughts on the big day 1 threats.


So this is definitely the big threat in the tier right now. Being faster then most of the unboosted metagame, having great coverage with 3 moves which allows you to flex between fire blast, sub, and work up in the last slot, and raw power to chew through even the most dedicated answers over the game; this thing is an absolute monster and my number one on probably should get quick banned.


Amazing wall breaker that has pretty much no switch ins and a defensive typing that still allows you to pivot into it and recovery with giga drain gives you the longevity to allow you to keep throwing out nukes. This thing is by far the best looking wall breaker in the tier.


This ones probably going to fly under the radar for awhile but I would be quick to pick up on just how good this mon is. Sitting in a nice speed tier Haunter finds itself a natural fit as either a specs abuser, scarfer, or LO attacker which gives it a lot of mix up in what set you're actually playing against. Its stab combo is incredibly hard to switch into and can absolutely shred teams that aren't packing answers to revenge kill it.


Best offensive pivot in the tier hands down. Boots with roost has ridiculous longevity and with stab + coverage to break apart all our volt immunities you're pretty much always going to get something out of Vikavolt in a game. Plus agility + throat spray sets are incredibly threatening if they're not packing a Clefairy.


Being one of the few mons faster then Tauros without a scarf is a huge boost for Sneasel which easily lets it claim its spot as one of the best offensive breakers in the tier. Nothing in the tier really like knock off and the ones that do get heavily dented by triple axel/icicle crash. Even SD sets are extremely threatening which can throw people off if they spend the entire game expecting banded.


Special Toxicroak is definitely the best set for it this gen and if you've been trying SD I'd highly recommend giving NP or 4 attacks special a try because its so much harder to switch into and packs priority STAB. Scarf is also a really cool set that can clutch out matches and clean against people not respecting scarf as a set.


Iron defense + Body Press Cofagrigus is by far one of the scariest mons in the tier right now. You pretty much auto win so many match ups because its pretty much unkillable after an ID boost unless they're packing something like a haunter that can force it out on the special side.


And now some under rated things that should get explored sooner rather then later because they have the potential to be the tiers staple mons for a long time to come


Get used to seeing these because they're going to quickly be everywhere as all purpose glue.

Persian is pretty much just a catch all answer to the vally forms and Tauros and fur coat + momentum really just gets a ton of value every game when coupled with all its other amazing utility options.
Clefairy breaks all logic by somehow being an unkillable wall which lets you have checks to a lot of scary things in the tier right now like vikavolt, cramorant, and a dragon immunity for eggy-a.
Cramorant is such a blessing to have in the tier as its a defogger that no matter what is always going to be annoying for teams to get past things to surf + hurricane/brave bird coverage being a pain to switch into, gulp missile putting insane amounts of pressure down, and its speed tier allowing you to even invest all the way up to gallade where you're also able to tech brave bird to ohko gallade even with a timid nature.



So far I'm very happy with how the meta is but I think there's a huge concern for Tauros being blatantly broken so hopefully we can do something about that over the next few days as the dust settles.

 

[JdRDMS]

This is ridiculous. I'm really excited to see how ZU changes from this mess. I'm not familiar enough with the Gen 8 ZU meta to comment on anything particular, so I'll just share my five main thoughts:
- Did we really just gain 104 Pokemon (106 if you include unbans) and lose one (Pincurchin is the only thing we lost)?
- Looks like the dreaded fridge is back. Can't wait to see how it turns out in Gen 8 compared to the overpowered nonsense it was in Gen 7.
- We now have 15 of the 17 Silvally forms. I know I already made this joke before, but Gen 8 ZU is the real SU atm.
- It's kind of ironic that this happened in January. We're starting the new year with a completely different tier (that rhyme was unintentional btw).
- I feel awful for the ZU council. I can't wait to see the Google Sheet for the next VR slate. The VR is gonna be borderline unrecognizable after just one update.

 

[WalmartDownBad]

Im new to ZU so i don't have much to say since i'm not as involved in the ZU community as others but i think it's pretty insane and cool that the tier got 2 good web setters shuckle and vikavolt.

Shuckle is pretty bulky so i can definitely see people using this to get their web and rocks up.

Vikavolt is fast so i dont people will have to worry about their shuckle dying to like specs hydropump crit right away and only being to get up 1 hazard and not the preferred stealth rock and web that shuckle is mainly known for.
Hopefully i can get more involved in ZU its been a pretty fun tier so far and the community seems to be very nice!

 

[Joe Career]

PU just banned Tauros, so that's one out of the way.

 

[Yubellia]

So been laddering and teambuilding and just wanna s/o people like kay and Ho3nConfirm3d for helping me teambuild on showdown and discord. I wanna give some thoughts on the metagame.

sets

Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Vacuum Wave
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball

Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Sucker Punch / Knock Off

Toxicroak @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Cross Chop
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off
- Earthquake

This pokemon is a straight menace and personally one of the best pokemon of the metagame. Great versatility, amazing stats, and decent defensive utility all makes Toxicroak a complete devastator for a lot of teams right now. I personally been liking Nasty Plot sets right now but physical sets have also been putting in a lot of work as well and catch people off guard. Checks are really limited and often teams need to rely on offensively checking Croak via methods like Scarf Gallade, Scarf Rotom-S, and other niche options like defensive Musharna. I really think this pokemon should be considered for a quickban in the near future due to how well it can just break through teams and bluff sets like no other.

Cramorant @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Gulp Missile
EVs: 248 HP / 120 SpD / 140 Spe (a more physically defensive set can also work well)
Calm Nature
- Roost
- Surf
- Brave Bird / Hurricane
- Defog

The best Defog user in the tier right now, Cramorant can be really splashed on to any team and work really well. Goes up against common Stealth Rock users like Pallosand, Sandslash, and Runerigus super well and can be a pain thanks to its weird yet effective ability in Gulp Missile. It still has it's fair share of checks in the Rotoms, Clefairy, and Wishiwashi so I don't think it's too overbearing but overall I really been enjoying this pokemon in the tier and believe it's a great addition and top tier threat.

Centiskorch @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fire Lash
- Knock Off
- Leech Life
- Power Whip

This pokemon is really great too and also believe it can become overbearing over time. Checks like Altaria and Cramorant do exist, but Fire Lash + it's amazing coverage really make Centiskorch a pain to switch into especially with hazards support. I still think there may be more pressing issues in the tier, but I wanna keep my eyes out on this fire bug because it can become more of a pain once more oppressing offensive threats hopefully leave the tier.

Here are some teams I would like to share as well:

Screens Offense

Cincinno Bulky Offense

Spiritomb Stall

Have fun!

 

[Tuthur]

Yo, First Impressions time !

So I obviously haven't used the 100 mon that dropped but some already stands out.



These three Fighting-types seem out of place in ZU, since PU banned Sirfetch'd and Machamp, we can expect them to rise in three months through tier shifts. Meantime, we'll have to handle these Fighters that are in my opinion overcentralizing. ZU has plenty Fighting-type checks such as Silvally-Poison, Cofagrigus and Uxie that can more or less handle them, however frailer ones such as Vikavolt, Cramorant and Centiskorch can't afford to check them because of their secondary STAB. It's hard to justify other powerful new Fighting-types like Sawk, Throh and Silvally-Fighting when these 3 do just so well.
Toxicroak is the best Pokémon in the tier and the most obnoxious in the trio partially due to its ability to be run physical and special sets and having two powerful priority moves in Sucker Punch and Vaccuum Wave that can make it tough to revenge kill without a healthy Silvally. It has very sturdy counters like Golbat and Sableye, and defensive Ghost-types like Cofagrigus and Jellicent can handle sets lacking Shadow Ball. However, non Poison-type checks hates to switch into the Poison-type STAB as they are quickly weakened by poison and +2 Sludge Bomb / +2 Gunk Shot. It's tough to check Toxicroak both offensively and defensively, but not impossible. What pushes it over the edge in my opinion, is that it's fast for such a threating wallbreaker and thanks to its Water and Toxic immunities it gets many occasions to switch in and wallbreak.
Gallade and Scrafty are less centralizing than Toxicroak, especially because they don't have such a strong priority, but they both have assets over Toxicroak and appreciates its impact on the tier. Gallade takes advantage of the Poison-types like Golbat and Garbodor that are used to counter Toxicroak. However its weakness to Ghost-types and low physical bulk can be very worrying and make it more easily managed than Toxicroak, but nonetheless it stays a very powerful threat with a great STAB combination.
Scrafty is far slower and a bit weaker than the other two but has two great abilities that eases its setup and one that make it snowball more easily, as well as a huge bulk which paired with a resist berry can let it Dragon Dance twice and outspeed the whole tier bar Choice Scarf users. Its STAB combination lets it hit the whole tier for neutral damage bar Toxicroak and Fairy-types, however they can be tect with Zen Headbut and Poison Jab, respectively. In my opinion, Scrafty's biggest asset is how much it can abuse defensive Ghost-types such as Palossand, Cofagrigus, and Sableye, especially with the Shed Skin ability, that are used to counter the two other Fighting-types.
All in all, I think that at the moment, only Toxicroak needs to be banned because I think the other two are less urging and is easier to handle and because Toxicroak's removal would allow for more diversity in Fighting-type checks.


This monster uses Shell Smash and goes rampant. Depending on if it runs Draco Meteor or Flash Cannon, its checks are different. After a Shell Smash it is able to outspeed the whole unboosted tier bar Accelgor and even at -1 it can rather easily sponge priority moves leaving only Choice Scarf users as reliable answers, that only if screens aren't up. I am yet not quite convinced if Turtonator is broken since having a scarfer is something most teams do regardless of Turtonator. However, the pressure it puts on teambuilding because it's impossible to wall and can easily clean once you lost your scarfer or if screens are up makes me lean toward ban.


These two are super hard to wall at the moment and are only hold back by their mediocre bulk. I don't see them as priorities for tiering but they could easily become broken in a near future.

Thanks for reading

 

[Eris]

Been playing a bunch since the drops so here are my thoughts on what the frick is going on. I'll layout this post a little as it might get too lengthy, but I need to mention that these are based on the drops only and are just what I have seen and played against, I am not mentioning anything that I haven't used or played against hence why I won't be going through everything.

The Three Musketeers

One of them need to go, but I will be brief because Tuthur wrote a nice paragraph in his post above. I cannot form an opinion yet on whether one is particularly better than the other because I find them to be somewhat match up reliant and all have their effectiveness, especially this early on in the metagame where it is quite chaotic. Toxicroak is the splashiest one for sure and probably the one I find the scariest out of the three, it is effective no matter what and easily fits onto teams as it generally will never have a bad match up no matter what your set is. I do prefer NP over SD sets just because I haven't found priority to be very needed and I don't want to be walled by Jellicent, but even then, a speed tier of 295 already enables you to outspeed an enormous portion of the metagame.

Gallade is quite scary only because it is tricky to switch into, much more than Toxicroak because Toxicroak generally needs a turn to set up. I have mainly used Gallade as a wincon with a Choice Scarf because you literally have to carry a Choice Scarf user on every team and Gallade fits the role really well, nothing really likes to switch into Close Combat and the few walls who do are threatened by Zen Headbutt or Knock Off. For your last move you have a bit of versatility in Trick, Triple Axel, Shadow Sneak, and Memento, which are all fine options in themselves though I preferred Shadow Sneak on my team as I didn't have enough priority. SD Gallade is still amazing nonetheless and most likely even better than Choice Scarf, which makes it a Pokémon that can pick and choose what it wants to beat.

Scrafty is generally just an obnoxious wincon, I have not seen enough Fairy-types being used at the moment, maybe we're all enjoying ourselves with the new toys but remember that Galarian Rapidash is not dead and should be thought of more often. Otherwise, I think this Pokémon generally has good match ups too, physical walls don't win against it so you're pretty much limiting your counter play to Fighting, Flying, and Fairy coverage which all have to be from offensive threats. I have seen a lot of games where Scrafty just sets up and wallbreaks for another wincon like Turtonator or Frostmoth to come in and sweep, and it's just very good at doing that effectively.

I think as a whole all of them are quite centralizing already and need more than one counterplay against which considering the 97 or so other threats who just dropped it does have an immense impact especially on braincells when building. Likewise, I have seen them paired together, and they're honestly even better then because their counterplay generally cannot handle more than one of them. My best attempt so far at checking all 3 of them defensively is to have Golbat and a Ghost-type like Jellicent and Cofagrigus which can depending on their sets weaken or stop them from sweeping but again these are quite unreliable, and I would settle for offensive counter play in threats like Galarian Rapidash which I already mentioned.

Pokémon I don't Know How To Switch Into

There are a lot of powerhouses in ZU and these are the ones I have had the most trouble against, I cannot tell you how hard it is to switch into these Pokémon when you haven't prepared your teams for them yet. Omastar hasn't been talked about enough from what I have seen, all the Shell Smash hype has only gone to Turtonator and for very valid reasons too but, Shell Smash + Meteor Beam is deadly and pretty much secures a kill on so many switch ins like Jellicent, Ludicolo, has a chance to OHKO Toxicroak, and many more. Even if this move can only really be used once reliably it still creates amazing offensive pressure and definitely a very hard Pokémon to switch into. Turtonator is the same except it doesn't rely as heavily on its item and is a much more reliable Shell Smash setter due to better defensive typing and stats. I've seen people complaining and finding it over the edge and I think that so far is a little overhyped, it's not very hard to revenge kill due to its Speed just being very underwhelming and many Choice Scarf users have no trouble out speeding it, and pretty much drops effectiveness after a Draco Meteor. I do think it is a very good Pokémon, but I would consider banning it now to be a little premature.

Alolan Exeggutor is just something that needs to constantly be played around especially under Trick Room where it just can claim a kill so easily, there are not many Draco Meteor switch ins and even less when you consider its coverage. All of this and it being actually hard to threaten out of the field without having a Flying, Fairy or Ice types. Seen it with Choice Specs and while it is scarier to switch into, Life Orb does just enough damage for you to get rid of whatever you want really, you can get your HP back with Giga Drain really easily and choice locking yourself when using Exeggutor is just such a shame because it makes it so much easier for the opponent to revenge kill.

Froslass is so scary and hard to switch into. It has an amazing Speed and goes even beyond everything else on I have mentioned so far because it doesn't even need to set up or rely on any form of support to literally rip your team apart. Life Orb and Choice Band are both good options especially when using it as a lead to threaten out the Ghost and Ground-types. Choice Band Triple Axel can even OHKOs Fighting-types like Toxicroak, Gallade, Soak, and other threats like Crawmorant, while Poltergeist gets rid of Water-types like Jellicent, Ludicolo and 2hkos with like 70% on Poliwrith, Centiskorch, and Aurorus which is so scary to me. The only counterpart Froslass really has is having to switch out or not get worn down enough to where priority can revenge kill it. I have been told that Sneasel is better, which I can agree with on paper but I have yet to see it in a game.

Clawitzer and Magmortar are kind of in the same boat as Froslass and Alolan Exeggutor where nothing really likes to switch in on them but their counter play is still much larger than the above two. Clawitzer hits hard but fails to pick up on many OHKOs which just makes it easily revenge killed and does have a pretty low speed still for a glass cannon type of threat. All the Magmortars I have seen were mostly Choice Scarf to outspeed and revenge kill fellow Turtonators, Sneasel, and everything else that dares outspeed it. Magmortar has access to solid coverage in Thunderbolt, Scorching Sands, and Focus Blast which combined with a 125 spa stat makes your switch ins very limited, Taunt can help it stop its counters from recovering making walls like Jellicent ending up unreliable. Centiskorch is another Pokémon I find hard to counter especially since your best switch-ins will usually be Fire-types and those cannot hit it because of Flash Fire or can't reliably take in Knock Off from it. Centiskorch has great coverage in Power Whip hitting Ground and Rock types that like to consider themselves as reliable counters, also has recovery in Leech Life. It does however balance itself out a little by being pretty slow and having a defensive typing that isn't really hard to revenge kill in this tier.

Kangaskhan is in a similar case as the rest where nothing really likes to switch into it, Choice Band 2hkos almost everything in the metagame like Cofagrigus, Uxie, Jellicent, and Silvallys. Good speed tier which lets it outspeed a bunch of the other good wallbreakers I talked about like Clawitzer, Centiskorch, Alolan Exeggutor making it a solid revenge killer. Kangaskhan has weaknesses though, recoil and just overall lack of speed will make it vulnerable to faster and priority attackers especially with Sucker Punch being resisted by fast Fighting types. Also just use this instead of Regigigas please. Vikavolt on the other hand is just a solid soft check to the many Water-types we have in this tier whilst having an amazing special attack stat, making it very easy to pressure the opponent once in, especially with Volt Switch making it a reliable momentum gainer for teams.

Generally I do think these are the Pokémon that hold an edge over the rest of the metagame and are definitely ones to watch out for as they're all easily to fit into broken / unhealthy categories. Building wise it's very hard, I could even go with impossible to check all of these threats which is why offensive archetypes are just dominating at the moment. I have talked very briefly about them but a lot more could be said.

Some other good threats

Won't go too much in details here because I don't want too write too much, but I consider these Pokémon to be great threats that shouldn't be underestimated. The difference between these threats and the ones I have already talked about is that while they are very good, they are much easier to stop from sweeping or revenge killing your entire team by having a bigger number of checks and counters. Cinccino, Haunter, Electrivire, and Silvallys are great revenge killers with very solid wallbreaking abilities, good speed tiers and can easily put in dents through a team, especially Silvally as it is greatly versatile throughout all the typings and sets it could be using.

Setup sweepers like Malamar, Kingler, Flapple and Frostmoth are also great wallbreakers and wincons. Malamar is bulky enough to sustain many attackers and can only be getting rid of through Bug and Fairy type attacks and even then not all are a secured OHKO, combined with a good defensive typing and average speed making it easy to spam Superpower with. Flapple I have mainly seen running Dragon Dance but it can easily opt to be using Choice Band or Choice Scarf and still be doing strong damages and sweeping through teams. Grass + Dragon coverage is really powerful especially when mixed with an ability like Hustle and Grav Apple which can make counters like Mawile think twice about switching in. Furthermore it can also pivot and use priority in Sucker Punch and U-turn.

Kingler and Frostmoth are ones I consider to need a little bit of support, when not choiced locked both need at least a turn to really have a chance at sweeping but similarly to Flapple this can change the entire outcome of a game as both are really strong power houses. Kingler has a few counters depending on the set like Poliwhirl, Jellicent and Leafeon but again this really depends on what the set is whether it is SD three attack, Agility three attacks or double setup with Liquidation and Knock Off. Frostmoth has less switch ins due to the coverage of Ice Beam, Bug Buzz, and Air Slash / Hurricane hitting almost the entire metagame but at the same time it lacks a bit of power and can generally be revenge killed even at +2.

Haunter, Jynx and Drampa are just nice mid game wallbreakers and can inflict a lot of dammage and do greatly against a wide amount of threats, but are all susceptible at the moment in the metagame being so offensively driven that they can't shine as much due to them being better against balance and bo archetypes. I have to say though that Cramorant is literally just annoying, Gulp Missile is actually a pain to check especially when this thing can paralyze you very easily when you take it down, it's a great momentum killer for the opponent and does a great job being annoying.

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Weather Wars

Big fan of weather teams, they all have great tools in this metagame. Sun is by far the most common and used version for very right reasons in it being the superior weather archetype. Exeggutor and Shiftry really boosted Sun teams massively with their amazing wallbreaking abilities where it is challenging to prepare for them. Exeggutor doesn't really need to setup to get through teams, Solar Beam + Psychic is already great coverage where Skuntank is your only reliable wall against it, and not many scarfers can revenge kill this under sun. Magmortar is also a really solid abuser where Choice Specs has very little switchins and literally gets a kill every time it enters the field. Rapidash is just your good physical wallbreaker but honestly it's very underwhelming, needs to SD to actually get passed checks and even then it doesn't pick up a lot of OHKOs.

Rain has become a bit more present on ladder, maybe just my timezone but I've been seeing more of it and it's just as tricky to play against as sun teams are. Water-types being a bit more bulky makes them harder to wear down but at the same time some of them really lack power and can be played against more easily than threats on sun teams. Omastar and Ludicolo are staples and I would even add that they are a must on rain teams just because they're the best rain abusers with a strong offensive presence that can pick up on common rain weaknesses. I've already talked about shell smash Omastar so nothing new except Hydro Pump picks up anything it couldn't before. Ludicolo despite an underwhelming special attack still has coverage that pushes it through being menacing, if you're playing it with Life Orb you're probably making your life easier because Choice Specs just drains your momentum and you need that on weather teams, being able to get through rain counters like Jellicent and other Water-types is very valuable.

Hail is obviously not as good as the rest but I've actually seen it work quite nicely against certain match-ups, the tier lacks a bit of Alolan Sandslash but still works nicely with other abusers like Rotom-Frost and Froslass. Abomasnow is quite underwhelming just because its too slow to be using a Choice Scarf and doesn't really give hail teams anything it needs besides a slow and average abuser which is why I think Vanilluxe outclasses it, actually has a good speed tier to hold a Choice Scarf and can work as a secondary haiel setter. Aurorus is probably the best hail setter out of them all but even then it's a bit shaky at it, Fighting-types are just too dominant in this metagame for hail to really push through a higher viability.

Bulky Pokémon I like

Starting with the Stealth Rock users I have been enjoying using the most. Rhydon is a great defensive wall and can strike back offensively with good attack stat, can also use Roar to phaze out annoying things like Dubwool or Cofagrigus but I'd rate Toxic or Swords Dance as better 4th move. Similarly to Rhydon, Piloswine is a good Stealth Rock setter and punishes defog users well but has a bit of a downside in being easily worn down. Uxie is the one I have been seeing the most, good momentum in U-turn and Yawn makes a great lead, very bulky but with a good Speed tier, just a really good addition to the tier. Palossand I rate highly because it's really fun to use and actually has recovery but it can wear down your momentum a lot, lack of Toxic on it makes it a bit harder to use as threats have very little trouble switching in on it so I usually get rid of Shadow Ball for it, otherwise it's a decent Fire and Fighting check.

Jellicent is just my favourite bulky mon to use, it's a soft check to a lot of the metagame counting Fighting and Fire types. It can easily get rid of threats with just Scald and Shadow Ball, you have options in Taunt and Toxic which are quite nice as well against the less common fat teams, just a really cool jelly fish. Alolan Persian is a great support pivot and works well against bulkier teams, Taunt + Parting Shot is just really good support especially paired with strong wallbreakers like the ones above or even Super Fang Golbat to prevent foes from healing back up, good speed as well makes you rival against annoying Sneasel and outspeed a good portion of the unboosted metagame. Golbat is probably my favourite soft check to all the fighting types running around and does great support as a hazard remover and stall breaker, again I don't think the metagame is being very kind to it but definetly something I can see rising once the tier settles itself.

Please stop using

Someone please explain to me the appeal in Regigigas, I literally don't get it.

 

[Onyx Burst]

Please stop using

Someone please explain to me the appeal in Regigigas, I literally don't get it.

Regi got Protect and Rest this gen. People think they could get this meme to work. It is bulky so it may be able to take hits, but with the amount of power in this tier, I would not try to let it take hits.

 

[Konan the barbarian]

Helloooooooo first time poster here. I've been playing some zu lately, and I'm having a blast with a rain team I concocted for fun. But it's not the team itself I want to discuss as it is not very good with Toxicroak and the occasional Poliwrath running around, rather, I want to talk about the 2 mons that IMO are the jewels in the crown of the team.

Shiinotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Spore/Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Toxic/Leech Seed
- Strength Sap

This little demon is a fury to be reckoned with. I initially chose it because it synergizes with rain teams like no other grass type thanks to its Rain Dish ability, but the more I played it, the more I realized this thing can hold the ground on its own without rain support. It is ultavulnerable to status (which is why I run a Hydration Lapras along with it), but once it forces a switch, there is no stopping this thing unless there's something with sound based moves on the other side. One of the reasons it works so well in the current meta is the absolute dearth of grass/poison types, seriously, I haven't met a single one and I play ZU every day. Now, I run Rain Dish because I'm using a rain team, but I still advise to run that specific ability because Illuminate is useless and Effect Spore risks inflicting the wrong status on the opponent. On a rain team, one of the most common threats is the 10000 forms of Gourgeist, and if you manage to nab a toxic on the switch, there's literally nothing they can do to stop you unless they run toxic and then sub, which is still a 1 for 1 trade. Substitute and Strength Sap are mandatory on this set to keep Shiinotic healthy and well protected from status, then it's up to you which moves you want to use to whittle down your opponent. Want safe turns to setup? Go Spore. Want to inflict as much damage as possible while having even more recovery? Go Leech + Tox. Grass types aren't a problem? Forgo Tox and go Leech + Spore. If the opponent has a team comprised of mostly physical attackers, this Shiinotic set just destroys each and every one of them. I also 0d its speed evs and went for a minus speed nature because Shiinotic ain't outspeeding anything anyway and it's one more tool against Trick Room this way. Just beware of Hattrem because Magic Bounce completely shuts down this set.

I'm not going to post a set here because mine is specifically tailored to fit on my rain team, but holy s**t did I get some mileage out of Prankster Copycat + Encore. Hyper offense is done before even starting to setup. Oh did your Shuckle just set up Sticky Web? I'm going Copycat and setting up a web of my own. Do I have reason to believe it's not running Mental Herb? Encore those rocks and then set them up yourself. Screens? Encored before they can even set up 2, then you can Copycat the screen they've set up. Oh, their setup sweeper just swooped in? Encore them, then Copycat their own boost unless they're named Scrafty, which Play Rough makes quick work of anyways. Trick Room? Take down their Trick Room with a Copycat Trick Room of your own once they inevitably switch to their abuser of choice or Carbink Misty Explodes. Did they unexpectedly Volt/Turn/Parting/Flip out? Copycat that and keep Liepard safe for another round of pranks. Were they expecting an Encore and sent a speedy revenge killer to nab Liepard, but you went for a hard hitting move instead? Go Copycat the next turn, and their supposed revenge killer is done for or in range for priority by another teammate. Ditto is also a non factor, especially if you're running a fully supportive set. Obviously Prankster has its glaring drawback of not affecting dark types, but as I said Liepard has Play Rough and can take care of them, unless they're a Sableye running Willo and not running Prankster. Applications for Prankster Copycat + Encore are just endless, and I probably haven't even scratched the surface of what it can do, but one thing's for sure: I wouldn't have had even half the fun I've had these weeks without this Liepard set.

 

[WalmartDownBad]

Ok so after playing ZU for a bit here's what i have to say:

Deadly Fighters

After seeing everyones post above this one i see that marjane and tuther think croak,gallade and scrafty are a bit TOO strong for ZU and for everyone sanity i think its fair 1/3 need to get up and go, after messing around with croak and scrafty i can def say they are both just as scary and just as deadly/broken. Scrafty may be quad weak to fairy but keep in mind scrafty has 90 base attack which is no small feat AND it can learn poison jab which is a physical move all it takes is 1 or more d dance to put every fairy type on the field in some serious trouble.

I've said my part on scrafty but lets talk about croak. Boy oh boy now croaks base attack stat is 106 but that doesnt mean it cant make up for its 86 SpA stat with nasty plot, stuff like this would be called special toxicroak (basically just croak with nasty plot and special moves) do keep in mind it can learn shadow ball and only 4/20 ZU psychic types can outspeed croak those being meowstic, mr mime,orbeetle,Rapidash-Galar. As you can see very limited but i think the best way just counter this annoying frog is Eviolite duosion as long as croak hasn't nasty plotted

Notable calcs:

252+ SpA Duosion Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 892-1056 (290.5 - 343.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(Without nasty plot)
↓
252 SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Duosion: 174-205 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Lightscreen could make life easier)


Games with special croak:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1254709693
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1254620405

Now we are on to gardevoi- i mean gallade!
I dont know much i just know people run AV gallade which this can be very useful for shadow ball croak and if youre running zenheadbutt gallade you basically OHKO

Calcs:

0 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Toxicroak: 660-780 (214.9 - 254%) -- guaranteed OHKO


252 SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 153-182 (55.2 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Things i think are OP but not banworthy :
- Deadly Shell smashers. Its ggs if you dont have trickroom or bulky mon like Musharna
- Ngl but i tried LO and choice specs on this................ Too good.

Webbers:

After testing both of these mons i think shuckle is best for hazards/webs due to its insane bulk and if you put encore on this thing your opponent if screwed ggs for your opponent if they didnt attack. Here are some web sets i think you should try if you ever want to use shuckle or any webbers
click for import ^

Weather teams:
Personally ive been having a lot of fun with weather teams especially rain, weather teams are really cool becuase you can have pokemon with the same ability/are good in certain weather literally overtake the meta its crazy to even think about!

Ive been using my custom rain team a lot and ive had a lot of success with it so why not dump it here


Games with this team:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1257176061
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1257195031-8b1hq7jcngyg2jhhma1g7rog16g9lbbpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1255813721

Anyway thats my take on the current metagame, thanks for reading and have a wonderful day : ).

WALMART SUCK!

 

[5gen]

Hey all, quick announcement: Council is currently voting on Haunter, Scrafty, Sneasel, Toxicroak, and Turtonator. Here is the quick ban slate.

There have been numerous posts in this thread that covered these Pokemon, so I'll avoid rehashing what has been said. Be sure to stay tuned as council votes and each member provides their thought process/opinions in the sheet.

 

[Danny]

So I’m relatively new to the ZU tier as well, but I’d like to give my thoughts on the meta so far since I am really enjoying playing (DLC 1 NU)ZU. I main NU and have for some time, and because of that I was intrigued to play in what was essentially old NU. Once again I see some problems with many of the mons that were banned from NU during that time period.

Just like in NU, the counterplay to this Pokémon is very limited. You are restricted to making a 50/50 prediction every time it comes in, and if you choose wrongyou lose a Pokémon. There are a few reliable checks to the Specs/Scarf sets, such as fat normal types, or generally bulky Pokémon, but it still has the ability to muscle past them all. I think the thing that makes Haunter broken, is it’s ability to run too many different sets, such as Scarf, Specs, and Sub Disable. It also has coverage moves for anything, and can hit every Pokémon in the tier for st least neutral damage.You are forced to waste a turn finding out what set it is, and by that point you’re already on the back foot. Trick to cripple those walls, Sub Disable to destroy any semblance of keeping it in check, and even dazzling gleam to nuke SpD Scrafty. Overall an unfit mon for the tier and I implore you to vote ban.

This guy I’m less sure, in about 50 games I’ve played over the past three days, I’ve seen only three Scrafty. Now that’s no argument that it isn’t broken, but that’s just pointing out that people have not realized it’s potential. It’s got two main sets that it can run, SpD BU or Dragon Dance. Both are scary in their own right, but Ithink the set most people are concerned about is the DD set. This tier lacks good Fairy Types, and the main one Clefairy, gets Knocked off and then nuked with Poison Jab. I personally always run some kind of way to beat Scrafty, whether that be an unaware Pokémon orCircle Throw Throh. Nonetheless, I see how and why people believe it is broken and I honestly couldn’t care either way. But for now I’ll just say do not ban just because it hasn’t taken over the meta like the other four have.

Sneasel was one of my favorite Pokémon to use before it got banned in NU.Even when it returned and was deemed balanced enough to stay, I loved to use Sneasel, both the HDB SD set and CB. At the moment unfortunately, I don’t think there is enough counterplay either offensively or defensively in the tier to handle Sneasel. Not many things take +2 Knock Offs, and the ones that do usually get blown away by Triple Axel. Not to mention it has Priority, to revenge kill weakened scarfers and fast Pokémon, making it difficult to stop. I do believe that the prevalence of scarf Gallade and Toxicroak do usually revenge kill, but those Pokémon are arguably broken as is, and broken check broken is not a meta that people tend to enjoy. For these reasons I would tend to lean towards ban.

Yeah f*ck this mon. No but seriously out of all the mons on this slate, this is the one I want out of the tier the fastest. The fact that a Pokémon still viable in NU could drop to ZU is almost criminal. Physical sets are easy to beat, but just like in Pre DLC NU, it is its special set that makes it too much. Nasty Plot boosts it’s middling Special Attack to immense levels, and the coverage it has can ravage the entire tier bar AV Gallade. And the fact that people are seriously considering using AV Gallade is just insane. It has coverage for all its checks, the viable ground types in the tier are Palossand and Stunfisk Galar(remind me if I missed one) and both hate it’s coverage/STAB. Fairies crumple to Sludge, and even faster revenge killers such as Unfezeant die to Vacuum wave after a little chip. Not to mention that this is the best balance/stallbreaker in the tier, and there is NO defensive way to deal with it bar SpD OG Stunfisk. I seriously used to use that back in the day for this and Special Skuntank(underrated mon),if that is a testament to its bustedness. Overall nothing beats it defensively, Scarf is still extremely good at revenge killing, and no(balanced) Pokémon in the tier beats it. Please ban.

Okay after that heated paragraph about a Pokémon that is disgustingly broken, I’d like to move towards an even more controversial little reptile.When he first dropped many believed that Turtonator would be the most broken Pokémon in the tier. Although it is very good, I would like to lead you to a few checks/counters that I have been using to beat it. SpD mantyke, marienie(unironically used this for turt and special croak), and SpD OG Stunfisk. Notice a trend? They all suck. I’m probably missing a big one like SpD Jelli but still, Turt has ways to beat them. Having to waste a team slot on an otherwise unviable Pokémon shoes how Turtonator does not belong in the tier. The ability to smash on a lot of things in this tier push this otherwise underwhelming turtle over the edge for me, so please ban.

Hope you guys enjoyed this post and I hope to play more ZU in the future, it’s a fun tier. I’d like to bring up that there are many busted Pokémon in this tier at the moment, and hopefully they’ll either rise up to PU or be banned in the future. Either way, been loving this tier and hope you enjoy(or don’t that’s cool too) my takes.

 

[Landon]

Thought I would share my opinions on the more broken mons so far. I'll try my best not to make this redundant to what others have said. Happy reading!

For starters, I think Croak is the most broken thing on the slate. It has a good speed tier, can run a variety of sets: special, physical, scarf, and has good enough coverage. Special + NP is arguably the better of sets as the only real checks are Silvally-Poison, which doesn't get reliable recovery and gets worn down everytime, and Golbat. Therefore, teambuilding is pretty restricted. There was a reason this mon was on topic of being a potential ban in NU a couple months back. This thing definitely needs to go.

Not too many mons can deal with DD Scrafty. Fairy-types can resist its dual stabs; however, Clefable doesn't like to take a Knock and other bulky fairies like Shiinotic and Alcreamie don't appreciate a Poison Jab. Like Tuther noted, bulkier Ghost-types like Palossand can't really do much since Scrafty gets access to Shed Skin and can simply setup on them. Even though bulkier fairies don't appreciate Scrafty's Knock and coverage moves they still can provide a pretty solid switch-in most of the time if Scrafty isn't able to setup a bunch. Even mons like Colbur Cofagrigus can take 2 +1 Knock's from Scrafty and 2HKO with Body Press. However, at the end of the day I still think this mon is too much as players have to keep their bulky fairies pretty much at maximum health to deal with this mon and as Marjane mentioned, this mon does a nice job of chipping down and removing opposing mons for other breakers like Turtonator to sweep. Too strong for ZU.

There's pretty much no defensive counterplay to this mon. Skuntank is the only thing resisting both STABS, but it stills doesn't eat the attacks well at all. LO Haunter hits super hard and personally I think Sub/Pain Split/STABS is its best set. However, it can as easily run LO + 4 atks, Specs, Scarf, Sub + Disable just as well. Fatter mons like Lickilicky who can switch into Scarf Haunter get crippled by Trick. Not to mention its speed tier is quite good as well, so your only real options of counterplay are outspeeding and killing or having priority and it not subbing or you not dying in one hit. This needs to go.

Again, another mon that's hard to switch into as nothing that comes in wants to get Knocked. Sneasel's speed tier is excellent and it can effectively run Band and SD. Defensive counterplay is also scarce with this mon. Avalugg is probably about the only decent switch in unless Sneasel has Low Kick and doesn't get its Boots Knocked (which sad to say is pretty inevitable). Even mons like Def Clef and Alcreamie get 2HKO'd by Banded Triple Axel. Lastly, it gets priority in Ice Shard. So Scarfers like Haunter pretty much get OHKO'd by a +2 Shard after rocks. Overall, very hard to deal with and should be banned.

While I don't find this mon as broken as the ones above it still shares the common trend of being hard to switch into. There are some defensive mons that can sort of deal with it like SpDef Jellicent and SpDef Wishi which may not be the best, but are still useful. Another thing that makes this a bit more broken is that it has good bulk and if paired with Screens even opposing Scarfers usually can't kill it. One draw back about this mon though is that it's very slow, so most Scarfers can outspeed it even after a SS. However, I don't find that enough reason to keep it in the tier, so I'm leaning more towards ban.

 

[5gen]

Quick ban slate is over. Here is the voting slate. Results:

Banned with a 4:2 majority
Banned unanimously
Banned unanimously

Tagging The Immortal to implement. Votes and reasoning from each council member are available in the voting sheet.

This thread has had some great discussion since the tier shifts. With these three Pokemon now banned, we will continue to monitor the metagame to see if there is anything else council should vote on.

Potential discussion points



Others people feel are worth looking into

 

[DripChip]

VIKING CAT: Perrserker
Perrserker is a serverly underrated pokemon in ZU atm. Its a amazing trick room sweeper with amazing coverage and destroys most of the metagame. Its able to spam gyro ball and ohko pokemon that resist it. Close combat hits Audino, Coalossal, and Miltank. While Seed Bomb 2ohkos Pyukumuku, Palossand, Jellicent and hits any other bulky waters attempting to take a hit from Perrserker. Curse is a amazing set up move as it boosts your defense and attack but lowers speed. All three of these stat boosts make Perrserker stronger as a defense boost lets it take a CC from all of the fighting types. The attack rise and speed drop help a ton as gyro ball gets buffed with its coverage boosts. Curse is used over swords dance as it lets Perrserker hit slow mons with gyro ball.

SET:
Perrserker @ Iron Ball
Brave Nature
Ability: Steely Spirit
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
- Gyro Ball
- Close Combat
- Seed Bomb
- Curse

Perrserker has Iron ball which halves its speed making gyro ball stronger. Its ability Steely Spirit boosts all steel moves making it a straight monster.

CALCS: https://pokepast.es/80a3e703982f6293
Here is the pokepaste containing Calcs. These calcs have Perrserker vs all Zu physical tanks, it may seem unimpressive but Perrserker can change those 5hkos to 2hkos-OHKOs after a curse. Also you have to consider that the mons on here are 252+ defense with max hp but they usually run Spdef or some other set. The only mon that Perrserker really struggles with is Vikavolt as all its stabs are resisted but having a teammate with rock stab is good.

TEAM OPITIONS: Perrserker is amazing on trick room so we obviously need some trick room setters. Uxie and Exeggutor-Alola are the best ones in my opinion as Uxie can set up rocks which punish vikavolt and gets nice chip on anything else. Exeggutor-Alola can take one hit and just nukes anything when it drops a draco. Cofagrigus and Gourgeist-Super are other nice Trick room setters but I prefer the first two. Dusknoir/Spiritomb is a great teammate for Perrserker as it hits anything that Perrserker cant. Gurrdurr is another nice teamate for Perrserker as its bulk up set is strong and it benefits from any mons trying to wisp Perrserker. Any other trick room abusers/ setters are nice for Perrserker aswell. Screens can also be used but its too much too set up with trick room and trick room is just better in my opinion as Perrserker isnt that tanky.

CHECKS AND COUNTERS
Vikavolt: Vikavolt just walls Perrserker lol.
Knock Off Users: Knocking off Perrserkers Iron Ball cripples it and bascially makes it do -1.5 damage with gyro ball.
Fighting types: Fighting types ohko Perrserker neturally but Perrserker can take a CC after one curse boost and kill them back.
Focus sash: Focus sash users make Perrserkers sweep slowers as its frail and cant take two hits from alot of mons.

OTHER OPITIONS: Theres really not any other opitions unless you really need SD to boost Perrserkers coverage or Crunch/Shadowclaw for tanky Ghost types.

THANKS FOR READING!!!

:p

 

[AstilCodex]

Hey everyone! Long time without posting. I kinda wanted to do it for a while since this meta started but there were so many toys that I didn't know where to start. Now that we all have a better understanding of the meta, stuff have been banned (and i got a beautiful voice promote ty uwu). I wanna talk about some mons that should be next points of disccusion.

The broken stuff pls ban ty

For me this two are the most broken stuff right now and they should go.
Eggy-a with its specs set clicks buttons every time it comes in and gets kills. This mon has practically 2 reliable switch-ins. At least the ones that I do remember over my head which are Cryogonal and Audino and even then they aren't safe switch-ins as cryo gets 2hkoed by flamethrower tho it threatens eggy back and Audino can sponge a hit then switch into another mon on a -2 attack rather draco or leaf storm. Access to flamethrower means the few steels we have arent switch-ins at all and its just too damn hard to switch into this thing as defensively it has no answers if they click the right button.

Vikavolt is so splashable on every offensive team as they really don't need to build around a 'webs team' since vik offers so much more than that. It can come in and slot pivot in many common mons like cramorant, poliwrath, gallade, clefairy, alopersian, uxie, etc as phys def bulk allows it too and its attacks coming from 143 spa are still strong as heck. It makes webs way too good, its way too bulky, still way too strong with no invest and its obnoxious enough to play around that I think meta its better without it.


They setup you lose

Alcremie is a very dangerous mon to have in consideration, being one of our few good fairies. Its sometimes very MU dependant and it needs to find the right place to setup but with the right support it can become a reliable wincon and be very scary on team preview. Acid armor + CM makes it so dificult to pass through and because of the lack of good steel types it usually doesnt have the need to run Mfire. Aroma Veil its also annoying as it cant get taunt or encored. Not a banworthy mon but def scary

Turtonator was on the previous ban slate and tho I still don't think its broken or unhealthy its one of the best setup sweepers in the tier. Fire+Dragon hits pretty much everything by Carbink. Special walls like Audino, Miltank, Clefairy, Wishi or Cram can take it on but they can also be setup fodder and they cant handle it that well if they cannot force turt to draco to lower its spa and not being a threat. Usually u handle turt setup by playing offensively and sacking a mon to get something to rk it as even after a SS scarfers tend to outspeed it cuz still slow. Turt usually cant find its way to properly setup and i think thats what it keeps it balanced.


Show me your switch-ins (u dont have any)

Ooh big Centiskorch. I have found myself struggling against this guy recently as it has little to no switch-ins actually by Coal or Miltank and ig Altaria on stall teams. Because of this, its usually handled offensively as it is rather slow and frail on the physical side, but that doesnt mean it isnt a threatening mon and something u have to be prepared for. Its coverage its very good as it makes waters not really a switch cuz power whip and strong koff its always annoying for stuff like Cram who takes like half. Unfort I dont think Centiskorch can afford to run Coil as 4 attacks its the way to go so this also keeps this thing being easily revenge killed.

With croak and scrafty gone. Gallade has risen as the best fighting type in the tier. At least offensively it is, packing strong CC and zen combination alongside koff. Decent speed tier for scarf sets and SD/band. Gallade has been very centralizing in building and such a fine mon to have on every offensive or balanced team. Stuff that push him down are its low phys bulk. Kinda slow speed on SD sets and the commonly enough rocky helmet users which can chip him away. Either way, Gallade strong af and it does indeed go brr.

Sneasel surviving first slate was the right decision i think cuz meta has adapted enough to handle it. Still this thing its obv one of the scariest mon in the tier being pretty hard to switch into. CB hits like a truck and boots can find its place letting sneasel dont take annoying sr or being crippled by webs and ofc not being locked into one move. Speed tier its great to just click koff and triple axel or crash. But on the other hand its super frail, it needs brain to play as u prob wanna get this into a double or after sacking a mon and ofc Boots lacks power and cb struggles against hazards. For now this thing should stay but it might problematic in the future maybe if vik goes.

Oh man Vanilluxe aka ice cream just clicks Blizzard and gets kills. Im loving this mon so far as the lack ot steel types in the tier makes its strong ice moves so spammable. Specs has been my fav set so far as i usually do with dmg and handle hazards with removal cuz the power its worth-it. It also has enough coverage to make ice switch-ins think it twice ofc freeze-dry makes water types a no but it also packs flash cannon for opposing ice types tho it still struggle against cryo and water pulse which can take on one switch-in fire types like magmortar, coal or centiskorch. Last move could also be toxic to catch miltank or the aforementioned cryogonal. Unfort ice cream its just one point slower than gallade and base 80 which makes it rather slow but it can still take a hit as it has decent bulk if it really needs to.

Good old vallies

We can all agree that these 3 are the best vallies rn so imma just talk about these ones.
Ghostvally goes in as it works perfectly as a sweeper for webs being also a spinblocker and just strong Ghost attacks its so good having only two resistances. silvally has enough bulk to setup an sd and MA your team with ease. Also not being that weak to knock off cuz is a silvally helps a lot. It has X-scissor (or d edge ty czim) which isnt the best but enough to scare dark types and because of sub it can also win 1v1 against normal types like miltank which standard set cant touch it behind a sub.

Darkvally is the one that I have experienced the least tho I know lots of people think its the best one rn. Darkvally works as a hard hitter and also a pivot support as pure dark alongside decent bulk makes it kind of an offensive version of Alopersian making it the vally of choice for BO teams. The heavily amount of common ghost types in rotom, palossand, coffin, jellicent, sableye makes darkvally a great offensive check to them even if they usually pack colbur. Dark on the other hand its usually easier to switch into letting darkvally pick its last coverage move in x-scissor for opposing dark, psy fangs for poli/throh and iron head for clef/carbink. This vally is also prob the best one out of the 3 for running a offensive support set in sd uturn defog for its good typing and utility.

Dragonvally is prob my fav one as dragon MA its easily spammable as we lack common fairy or steel types. SD iron head destroys clef and alcremie if it hasnt setup yet and flame charge makes it a dangerous sweeper. Tho its typing isnt that great at the time of setting up as dragon alone gets hit neutral by common typing such as fighting, dark, ghost and more. It needs the proper time to find its place to setup. Dragonvally can also allow to go special as Draco + Flamethrower its honestly all u need making it an offensive pivot with p shot and defog/toxic as last slot.

The dismissed Titan

Ok hear me out. Regigigas should not be UR. I honestly think this mon has potential while I've playing it it had surprised me how decent it actually is. 110 rounded bulk lets it sub + tect easily on fatter/passive mons this alongside t spikes makes a it a fine mon imo. Its role its really unique as it does not get outclassed by kanga as I've heard people said. Getting slow start off its not as hard as u think of and it can really perform well better than other normal types would in some situations. Im not gonna go to deep on it as im prob gonna do a post of regi alone when VR nomming but I encourage yall to try it before sentence it right to UR which it doesnt belong.

Satan

This is completely personal omg I hate this mon so much. It really isnt that good but when u build that one team which is weak to Cinccino and it flinches u to death its so frustrating. Thank god rocky helmet users are common enough but god king rock crap its honestly really uncompetitive and a real nuisance. ban king rock and cinccino pls ty

Hope u all enjoy my thoughts! See ya :3

 

[czim]

Time to discuss some underrated picks that I've been using - https://pokepast.es/6179896e4edd367d (all the sets mentioned here in this post are in this pokepaste)

This is a mon I didn't expect to like as much as I am liking it but it is excellent in bulky offense right now with its standard Restalk, U-turn, Toxic/Twave set. I tried using other special walls like Clefairy and Audino but they didn't really feel proactive and felt a lot like a momentum sink. Here are some fun calcs to showcase its absurd bulk.

calcs

+2 252 SpA Turtonator Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 166-196 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Turtonator Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 141-166 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 169-199 (43 - 50.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Basculin Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 130-154 (33 - 39.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Frosmoth Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 108-127 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

In a metagame where water immunities are in high demand due to Basculin going brrr, Jynx carves a niche for itself in offensive teams as a scary setup sweeper that gets some good opportunities to come in. Access to Lovely Kiss makes it a very good early game threat since it can lure a check like Stunfisk-Galar, Centiskorch or Sneasel and put it to sleep. Access to Psyshock helps it break from both sides of the spectrum too which is pretty cool

Another scary attacker and excellent mon for offense. Being notably the fastest Steel-type we have access to and something most teams aren't prepared to handle defensively. Being a Ground-type that also resists Flying and Bug makes it an excellent check to stuff like Vikavolt and Rotom-Fan. Its ability is also very useful in a pinch when you need an emergency sack versus a Silvally to prevent a sweep after a Flame Charge or to force Cinccino or Sneasel out since they'll be extremely slow after hitting this with their multi-hitting moves.

Another mon that has a lot of competition in this metagame in pretty much anything it tries to do but I managed to find a pretty solid niche for it as a Scarfer with Spikes that can easily cripple a switchin like Centiskorch, Stunfisk-G and Magmortar with Trick (and lot of the times you even manage to steal a Heavy-Duty Boots!). The new STABs Triple Axel and Poltergeist hit very hard and help revenge kill stuff like Scarf Gallade, Turtonator and so on.

This is probably the most controversial one here but I honestly started using it after looking for the respective moves in the teambuilder for role compression. Kabutops has an insane utility movepool consisting of Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, Knock Off and Flip Turn, and this inspired me to create the Boots set that is on the paste. Overall not amazing and honestly probably there is a better spread out there but it definitely is very good for role compression.

Klinklang has been working very well for me in Grassy Terrain builds with Toxic+Protect to lure its switchins and rack up recovery with Terrain+Leftovers. Its typing and overall big threat level make it a great inclusion in those types of builds and I hope you give it a chance :)

 

[Tuthur]

Hey, I wanted to share some thoughts on Astil's post.

I agree for the most part with the feeling behind Alolan Exeggutor and Vikavolt. In my opinion, none of these Pokémon belong to ZU and should be banned as soon as possible. Likewise, I agree with the Silvally analysis and don't have much to add. I haven't used Alcremie myself

Turtonator was on the previous ban slate and tho I still don't think its broken or unhealthy its one of the best setup sweepers in the tier. Fire+Dragon hits pretty much everything by Carbink. Special walls like Audino, Miltank, Clefairy, Wishi or Cram can take it on but they can also be setup fodder and they cant handle it that well if they cannot force turt to draco to lower its spa and not being a threat. Usually u handle turt setup by playing offensively and sacking a mon to get something to rk it as even after a SS scarfers tend to outspeed it cuz still slow. Turt usually cant find its way to properly setup and i think thats what it keeps it balanced.

I don't understand how a Pokémon with 60/135/85 and an amazing defensive typing "can't find its way to properly setup". You say Turtonator is balanced because it struggles to set up, what makes up for its insane wallbreaking capacities. But that's wrong, watch this replay from ZU rigged, Turtonator is able to setup on Vikavolt, but could also do it on Centiskorch and Uxie without taking much damage. I already shared my opinion on Turtonator in the last ban slate, and I can't understand how a Pokémon whose counterplay is limited to revenge kill it with a Choice Scarf user, use Carbink or Pyukumuku, or use a very specially defensive Pokémon that will take 80% from +2 DM and don't have recovery, so you can't send it out at any time in the game. Choice Scarf users, while common, aren't perfect answers as none can OHKO Turtonator behind Screens and are worthless if Webs are up. Carbink and Pyukumuku aren't the most splashable Pokémon in the tier and using them to counter Turtonator inevitably makes your team struggle with other threats and far more passive, respectively. Audino, Miltank, and Clefairy aren't counters. They take over half from +2 Fire Blast / Dragon Pulse and hardly hurt Turtonator back, so the best you can expect is to paralyse it with Thunder Wave and let your mon faint to revenge kill or Toxic it and sack some mon before it faints. Wishiwashi and Cramorant are one of these defensive Pokémon without recovery that need massive SpD invest and not take any damage to survive +2 Draco Meteor. Counterplay to Turtonator exists but it's unhealthy.

Show me your switch-ins (u dont have any)

Ooh big Centiskorch. I have found myself struggling against this guy recently as it has little to no switch-ins actually by Coal or Miltank and ig Altaria on stall teams. Because of this, its usually handled offensively as it is rather slow and frail on the physical side, but that doesnt mean it isnt a threatening mon and something u have to be prepared for. Its coverage its very good as it makes waters not really a switch cuz power whip and strong koff its always annoying for stuff like Cram who takes like half. Unfort I dont think Centiskorch can afford to run Coil as 4 attacks its the way to go so this also keeps this thing being easily revenge killed.

With croak and scrafty gone. Gallade has risen as the best fighting type in the tier. At least offensively it is, packing strong CC and zen combination alongside koff. Decent speed tier for scarf sets and SD/band. Gallade has been very centralizing in building and such a fine mon to have on every offensive or balanced team. Stuff that push him down are its low phys bulk. Kinda slow speed on SD sets and the commonly enough rocky helmet users which can chip him away. Either way, Gallade strong af and it does indeed go brr.

Sneasel surviving first slate was the right decision i think cuz meta has adapted enough to handle it. Still this thing its obv one of the scariest mon in the tier being pretty hard to switch into. CB hits like a truck and boots can find its place letting sneasel dont take annoying sr or being crippled by webs and ofc not being locked into one move. Speed tier its great to just click koff and triple axel or crash. But on the other hand its super frail, it needs brain to play as u prob wanna get this into a double or after sacking a mon and ofc Boots lacks power and cb struggles against hazards. For now this thing should stay but it might problematic in the future maybe if vik goes.

Oh man Vanilluxe aka ice cream just clicks Blizzard and gets kills. Im loving this mon so far as the lack ot steel types in the tier makes its strong ice moves so spammable. Specs has been my fav set so far as i usually do with dmg and handle hazards with removal cuz the power its worth-it. It also has enough coverage to make ice switch-ins think it twice ofc freeze-dry makes water types a no but it also packs flash cannon for opposing ice types tho it still struggle against cryo and water pulse which can take on one switch-in fire types like magmortar, coal or centiskorch. Last move could also be toxic to catch miltank or the aforementioned cryogonal. Unfort ice cream its just one point slower than gallade and base 80 which makes it rather slow but it can still take a hit as it has decent bulk if it really needs to.

I would add Magmortar to this list as well as it is very similar to them. It's pretty fast, has coverage for everything, hits hard, and is only walled by Appletun and Altaria. These attackers have a handful of counters and most teams just rely on revenge kill these threats to handle them. They aren't unwallable like Exeggutor-Alola, for example Miltank deals with no RestTalk variants of Centiskorch, the most common, Sneasel, and Choice Specs Vanilluxe. I don't believe the tier can evolve in a healthy way if these 5 Pokémon remain in the tier. There are just to many threats to handle rn and these 5 Pokémon happen to be the hardest Pokémon to switch into after Vikavolt and Exeggutor-Alola, I believe some of them can probably stay in the tier as there will be less threats to take into account and using their few checks won't be as hard.

The dismissed Titan

Ok hear me out. Regigigas should not be UR. I honestly think this mon has potential while I've playing it it had surprised me how decent it actually is. 110 rounded bulk lets it sub + tect easily on fatter/passive mons this alongside t spikes makes a it a fine mon imo. Its role its really unique as it does not get outclassed by kanga as I've heard people said. Getting slow start off its not as hard as u think of and it can really perform well better than other normal types would in some situations. Im not gonna go to deep on it as im prob gonna do a post of regi alone when VR nomming but I encourage yall to try it before sentence it right to UR which it doesnt belong.

Regigigas is garbage and shouldn't be considered in any serious team. Regigigas is super passive during 5 turns and anything that isn't Accelgor or Sneasel can easily switch into it. While Kangaskhan is slightly slower, frailer, and weaker than boosted Regigigas: it has access to priority moves, doesn't need to waste 5 turns to become threatening, and can hit Ghost-types. Silvally-Normal can setup in one turn to become more scary than Regigigas and has even the room for a third offensive move. I could list many more Pokémon, but that's not the point. Regigigas is just tremendously passive, isn't more threatening than Kangaskhan or Silvally-Normal, and even if SubTect + Toxic Spikes is a nice strategy, it isn't restrained to Regigigas. Also, I have been playing a lot versus Regigigas + Toxic Spikes, because some people wanted to convince me of its effectiveness, and yet I've never lost to it. Regigigas has so many flaws: its passivity during the 5 turns, its predictability, its lack of switch-in opportunity as it can't switch-in on any status move, Knock Off, or any strong hit without jeopardizing its ability to setup, and its weakness to Toxic Spikes (kinda ironic).
Regigigas will be UR and I hope everyone realizes soon that's is unviable, so it doesn't turn into Wailord 2.0.

Satan

This is completely personal omg I hate this mon so much. It really isnt that good but when u build that one team which is weak to Cinccino and it flinches u to death its so frustrating. Thank god rocky helmet users are common enough but god king rock crap its honestly really uncompetitive and a real nuisance. ban king rock and cinccino pls ty

Quick maths, the probability to flinch with King Rock with a move which hasn't a chance to flinch is 10%. The probability to not flinch in 5 hits is 0.9^5 ~ 59%. Making the probabality to finch at least once in 5 hits to be 1-0.9^5 ~ 41%. So taking into account the probabilty to land Tail Slap (85% Accuracy), Cinccino's probability to flinch with Tail Slap is (1-0.9^5)*0.85 ~ 35% which is slightly more than Iron Head, while making Cinccino far weaker than Choice Band variant. I can understand that it can be frustrating to face a King's Rock Cinccino and that the strategy involved is anything but competitive, however the odds aren't great enough to rely on them to break through the opposing team as flinching twice in a raw with Tail Slap is about as likely as freezing with Ice Beam.

Also, like czim I've found Dugtrio-Alola to be an underrated attacker that should see far more uses. I haven't tested the other mon that he talked about and plan to test them asap.
His post also made me want to share a set I've been messing up today (it's def not as good as czim's sets tho).

set

Accelgor @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 72 HP / 116 Def / 252 SpA / 68 Spe
Timid Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Encore
- Spikes
- Knock Off

I had only use Accelgor as a Spikes lead for hyper offense, and wondered if I couldn't do something else with its great movepool and huge Speed stats. The given spread seems really silly, 68 Speed with Timid nature lets it outspeed +2 Turtonator, Encore it, and take it down with Bug Buzz. This is not the most reliable Turtonator counter as it can only switch into Shell Smash. 252 SpA is self explanatory and the rest is put in bulk to avoid the OHKO from LO Gallade's Zen Headbutt while maximizing the special bulk. This Accelgor set is still far from bulky and can't switch realistically on hits, however it can easily live one if needed.
So what does this set do? Accelgor can easily switch in thanks to pivots like Wishiwashi, Teleport Clef (tho I wouldn't recommand this Clef set), Uxie, and Rotom, and find the opportunity to setup Spikes thanks to Encore. Knock Off is also pretty important as a lot of the time the opposing Hazard remover will have a great match-up against Accelgor (Cramorant, Golbat, Cryogonal just to name a few), however these Pokémon hates to lose their Heavy-Duty Boots and don't expect Knock Off from Accelgor.
All in all, this Accelgor set is fun and I don't believe it is meta revolving in any way. However, I think Accelgor is really underexplored at the moment, and should be used more because its movepool is really insane and its great Speed is always a great asset.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

ZU council is voting on Alolan Exeggutor and Vikavolt - Results before Week 1 of Winter Seasonal:

In case you haven't heard already from the ZU Discord, the ZU council along with a good chunk of the vocal community decided it was worthwhile to check out these two threats before kicking off the first tour in our 2021 circuit. Consider this post a council minutes of sorts, as I'll summarize the recent discourse regarding the metagame between council members, and I'll add my own thoughts near the end.

The first round of quickbans went eliminated three big threats out of ZU while two that were voted on, Sneasel and Turtonator, were left unbanned; council has decided to not revisit Sneasel and Turtonator on this slate. These two were decisive votes due to their offensive pressure and limited switch-ins, but ultimately were decided to have a handful of limitations that warranted them more time. For now, we'll look into how the meta can adapt to pressure these threats, and monitor how centralizing or broken they end up being after more time has given them a fair chance. Alolan Exeggutor and Vikavolt are two threats that are being looked into now that the first waves of bans is complete, which opened up more discussion to look into their problematic elements. Lastly, we decided to vote on these before w1 due to the overexposure of these two Pokemon in recent games and discussion, giving us a reason to deal with them in a timely manner.

What makes Alolan-Exeggutor so threatening is its super strong Leaf Storm and Draco Meteor STAB attacks and perfect coverage in Flamethrower, meaning that some of the best special walls like Clefairy, Galarian Stunfisk, and Ferroseed are unable to stop it. Needless to say, it's Speed and passable bulk also allows it to find switch-ins against physical walls like Cofagrigus and Qwilfish. However, it's reliance on Choice Specs and the major SpA drop off with Draco Meteor and Leaf Storm does mean it could be managable to play around through resistances / immunities. Faster special walls with good recovery like Miltank, Audino, and Golbat can switch into Draco Meteor and then outstall with recovery, Cyrogonal tanks an attack and OHKOs with its Ice attack, and Type: Null is an excellent specially defensive pivot that can switch-in and U-turn out. These checks are somewhat jeopardized by support like entry hazards and Knock Off–coverage that Alolan-Exeggutor could feasibly fit itself–and are extreme examples of the bulkiest Pokemon the meta has to offer. While its bulk is passable against passive or Choice-locked Pokemon, some of the stronger and faster wallbreakers like Sneasel, Vanilluxe, Clawitzer, Jynx, Silvally-Dragon, and Ice Beam Basculin are able to sweep past it relatively consistently. The SpA drops could also leave it vulnerable for it to be setup fodder against sweepers like Frosmoth, Silvally-Ghost, and Alcremie. We'll have to determine if these shortcomings are enough to keep it in the tier, or if its raw power is too centralizing and unhealthy.

Sticky Webs are phenomenal in ZU thanks to a ton of Silvally formes, faster wallbreakers that are grounded and cannot afford to hold Heavy-Duty Boots, and Vikavolt being a great defensive pivot. Vikavolt fits almost everywhere with its mix of offensive and defensive utility, and Volt Switch punishes physical attackers as there's practically no safe switch-ins for it; Energy Ball hurts the tier's Ground-types too much. The exception of Galarian Stunfisk isn't perfect either, as its best punishments of either Snap Trap + Yawn, Stealth Rock, or Stone Edge usually aren't enough to deter Vikavolt from setting Sticky Web or out recovering the damage with Roost. Its best checks would then be faster wallbreakers like Magmotor, Centiscorch, Choice Band Lycanrock, and specially offensive Basculin, but the latter two could be insufficient later on if Vikavolt ends up setting Sticky Web on the turn its sacked to them. Only a handful of hazard control Pokemon can check Vikavolt too, with some switch-ins for it being Rotom, Rotom-F, Cryogonal, and Turtonator. Most of this analysis has been on the basis of Vikavolt running a wall set, but make no mistake that it may opt for a more offensive and fast spread to have an even more punishing Volt Switch, and to get an edge against other slower attackers like Rhydon and Wishiwashi. Offensive pressure or outstalling it with Knock Off + Stealth Rock + Toxic support are usually the best ways to see it falter, leaving balance playstyles suffering as a result.

That should summarize most of what is concerning about these two threats, and I apologize in advance if my own voice and bias proliferated this post thus far. The next points will be entirely my takes.

Extremely versatile and powerful, I totally understand the concerns with Gallade. LO sets have nearly no switch-ins, and Choice Scarf sets can be surprising when revenge killing and efficient at cleaning. Right now I'd like to think its limitations with its physical bulk and typing leave it vulnerable enough to have been kept off the slate for now; if Vikavolt leaves, maybe that'll be a tipping point for it to be broken.

Fire Lash and its awesome coverage is also a huge concern for the metagame. Like many other wallbreakers, its Speed is underwelming, and Centiskorch is so reliable on its item that even passive walls like Clefairy, Ferroseed, Uxie, and Audino can punish it with Knock Off. I think that with the defensive meta already so centralized around entry hazards, residual damage, and Knock Off there's actually just enough counterplay to keep it around for now.

(Dragon) See immediately above about residual damage and entry hazard spam. Silvally-Dragon needs either a lot of support to give it free setup opportunities, or a good match up to be able to setup SD + Flame Charge to constantly sweep. This makes its perfect coverage a little underwelming when it can't run Heavy-Duty Boots or something of the sort. Alolan Persian is also a huge thorn in its side.

Thanks for reading and bear with us as we're still exploring this huge shift