I just got max hp for easier setup, nothing specific. But currently max hp is working good , it's easier to get +6. Although max spatk is better in situations like specs manetric or something similar.
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Metagame NP: ZU Stage 5.2 - Grassy Seed Banned @68
- Thread starter S1nn0hC0nfirm3d
- Start date
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Hola! Its ya antimeta tester risin!
So this time I have come to speak about SD
and Sub BU 
I used Sub bu throh in my week 2 of zult as a bulky breaker and contrary to the rest talk set that I always used on it, I decided to try out the setup set.
Honestly, it did better than what I had expected, and it wont be a stretch to say that 1434, which was the highest elo i touched during that run had a big contribution from throh. My set was max hp max atk adamant 4 spe for mirror with guts for abusing any burns or toxic, bu/sub/knock off/STORM THROW. Yes, i made another gamble and instead of superpower or circle throw, I decided to use storm throw mainly for high damage without stat drop and for mirrors.
Talking about the most common and troublesome answers that i faced during the run:
1)
This guy gave troubles but not too much trouble since it uses bb, but 25% extra damage with def drop eases revenge killing for team.
2)
A common fogger and probably the hardest or 2nd hardest mon to deal with for throh. +1 knock into storm throw on roost does have a good calc, but its hurricane is frightening, since it 2hkos throh and roost or no roost can be a big prediction.
3)
Another common fogger but not as troublesome as altaria since it lacks recovery and +1 knock 2hkos while unless u flinch air slash is 3hko. However, it has volt switch so yeah.
4)
Do I need to say anything?
5)
Oh boy...my team was prepared for other throh answers, but this one...oh boy...throh at +1 was able to deal with physical variant, but the common cm variant...frankly speaking my entire team wasnt prepared for that one... Basically i had just returned after a month long brak and didnt know g-rap was now meta so didnt prepare for it. In fact, I would say I didnt make it in 2nd week because of g-rap and underestimating drifblim.
Well, enough rambling on g-rap and blim. I will talk about them in a different post.
Next of, I will add some replays where throh either totally obliterated opponent or how it was super efficient in its job and helped the teammates win.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1344271376 (Throh broke past the bulky mons and prevented thievul from setting up, allowing team to revenge kill)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1344528699 (more or less single handed throh sweep against tr)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1344571128 (Throh kept breaking past the best physical walls and sp breaker skun)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1345272022 (Once again "The Thing" broke past all the pesky mons after which easy vally cleaning)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1345281594 (after a little team support throh went for 6-0)
So I am currently using this in my week 3 of zult and I am loving it ngl. My set is leftovers with max hp max atk sd/pwhip/stone edge/equake with idea of abusing silvally like atk and 120 bp stab powered further with gterrain. Now, now...dont hit me pls. Though unexpected its pneat. Dont believe me? Dw I will add replays too. Equake on gterrain?? I have banded thwack so gterrain doesn't last long and you mostly only use stabs. Equake is only to catch incoming steel by surprise. Its role is more or less the same as that of throh in the other team.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1347490856 (Total anihilation of stall and 95% to cofagrigus at +2)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1347584601 (Broke past the pesky mons and then easy gg)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1346842024-q3ovty87ybme40rwq5rkz09b826oekjpw (I made bad plays in this game but in the end, the natural bulk and strength of cradily pulled me out of losing)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1348214085-12gkd3ngxmlo9etpbtltp4p8ftyopxxpw (sry for the toxic miss orange but the power of cradily is evident)
WITH THIS THE POST ENDS.
So this time I have come to speak about SD
and Sub BU I used Sub bu throh in my week 2 of zult as a bulky breaker and contrary to the rest talk set that I always used on it, I decided to try out the setup set.
Honestly, it did better than what I had expected, and it wont be a stretch to say that 1434, which was the highest elo i touched during that run had a big contribution from throh. My set was max hp max atk adamant 4 spe for mirror with guts for abusing any burns or toxic, bu/sub/knock off/STORM THROW. Yes, i made another gamble and instead of superpower or circle throw, I decided to use storm throw mainly for high damage without stat drop and for mirrors.
Talking about the most common and troublesome answers that i faced during the run:
1)
This guy gave troubles but not too much trouble since it uses bb, but 25% extra damage with def drop eases revenge killing for team.2)
A common fogger and probably the hardest or 2nd hardest mon to deal with for throh. +1 knock into storm throw on roost does have a good calc, but its hurricane is frightening, since it 2hkos throh and roost or no roost can be a big prediction.3)
Another common fogger but not as troublesome as altaria since it lacks recovery and +1 knock 2hkos while unless u flinch air slash is 3hko. However, it has volt switch so yeah.4)
Do I need to say anything?5)
Oh boy...my team was prepared for other throh answers, but this one...oh boy...throh at +1 was able to deal with physical variant, but the common cm variant...frankly speaking my entire team wasnt prepared for that one... Basically i had just returned after a month long brak and didnt know g-rap was now meta so didnt prepare for it. In fact, I would say I didnt make it in 2nd week because of g-rap and underestimating drifblim.Well, enough rambling on g-rap and blim. I will talk about them in a different post.
Next of, I will add some replays where throh either totally obliterated opponent or how it was super efficient in its job and helped the teammates win.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1344271376 (Throh broke past the bulky mons and prevented thievul from setting up, allowing team to revenge kill)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1344528699 (more or less single handed throh sweep against tr)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1344571128 (Throh kept breaking past the best physical walls and sp breaker skun)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1345272022 (Once again "The Thing" broke past all the pesky mons after which easy vally cleaning)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1345281594 (after a little team support throh went for 6-0)
So I am currently using this in my week 3 of zult and I am loving it ngl. My set is leftovers with max hp max atk sd/pwhip/stone edge/equake with idea of abusing silvally like atk and 120 bp stab powered further with gterrain. Now, now...dont hit me pls. Though unexpected its pneat. Dont believe me? Dw I will add replays too. Equake on gterrain?? I have banded thwack so gterrain doesn't last long and you mostly only use stabs. Equake is only to catch incoming steel by surprise. Its role is more or less the same as that of throh in the other team.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1347490856 (Total anihilation of stall and 95% to cofagrigus at +2)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1347584601 (Broke past the pesky mons and then easy gg)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1346842024-q3ovty87ybme40rwq5rkz09b826oekjpw (I made bad plays in this game but in the end, the natural bulk and strength of cradily pulled me out of losing)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1348214085-12gkd3ngxmlo9etpbtltp4p8ftyopxxpw (sry for the toxic miss orange but the power of cradily is evident)
WITH THIS THE POST ENDS.
Last edited:
RISIN_GLORY:HOMECOMING
An overview post about the current ZU meta, what i feel about it and what I think should be added or removed (basically regarding suspect).
Hello all, as some you may know, after dragon vally ban + lycanroc rise, my ZU performance was in tatters and I was being outclassed in terms of games, building and meta knowledge by even some of the new players. So, in April i decided to take a break and comeback after sometime, which happened to be around 2 weeks back. Honestly, I feel like quite a lot has changed even though there havent been any major shifts. Now, i had been wanting to make a post about what i think the current meta is like and what I think are the mons that are kind of underexplored but have nice potential outside of the sphere they are generally categorized into, but of course, I had to grind a lot and check the meta inside out first. So, I participated in ZULT week 2 and 3(still going on) and I feel like now i have gained enough experiecnce to speak about it.An overview post about the current ZU meta, what i feel about it and what I think should be added or removed (basically regarding suspect).
ARCHETYPES
So lets start off with the different archetypes right now.
So lets start off with the different archetypes right now.
1) Sun 
With snow warning, lycanroc and damp rock gone, 3/4th of the weather is already dead. However, sun I think is a really great playstyle that people arent touching yet for some reason. I could understand earlier when we had damp rock, because rain was just a better weather. However, it never meant that sun was bad. It is already an established fact that shiftry is an amazing breaker(probably the best even ngl). Now, imagine that same brute force with a 125 bp stab, a speed higher than scarf manectric and a stab 95bp fire move(sun raises power of fire move so said stab). Well, this beast isnt the only arsenal in sun. Theres exeggutor too, which is like basically the banned alola eggy with worse secondary stab. You think this guy gets walled easily due to spd walls, skuntank and steels right? Below are some calcs of calm mind exeggutor.
The set I used for the above calcs is given below:
Exeggutor @ Life Orb
Level: 100
Modest Nature
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Psychic
- Calm Mind
- Solar Beam
- Psyshock
You dont like how ice shard and mach punch can easily revenge kill shiftry, especially since sun variant doesnt run sucker punch? I present to you smaller movepool, higher atk, higher defense shiftry, Leafeon!!
Leafeon would ideally run sd/solar blade/double edge/Knock off but you can also run weather ball to catch ferroseed by surprise and 2hko it.
at +2 life orb, solar blade ohkos skuntank while double edge ohkos altaria and has a chance to ohko articuno as well.
Dont like leafeon? You definitely cant say no to this next fan fav mon tho. Yeah, you guessed it right. Its ivysaur! Contrary to the popular belief, even with the 65 base spa ivysaur can be pretty destructive because of its fire/grass/poison coverage powered with growth.
Apart from the grass types there should definitely be 1 fire type in the sun team that support and cover the main sweepers. Now I would only suggest ninetales/rap but I suppose centiskorch can be slightly usable.
I will add below some replays that clearly show how dangerous sun can be.
(Note that the replays are from lycanroc time when essentially we had the same mons and lycanroc was only for revenge killing with priority, a role that basically just needs a strong priority user)
Now, after all of the standard and sub standard versions of sun are dicussed, lets talk about dugtrio, a suicide lead you might have noticed in my team in the above replays. Well my team wasnt exactly standard because of I was exploring various mons as always. Apparently, for sun teams, dugtrio can be a pretty neat sun setter mainly because it is fast and its stab equake/rock coverage prevents abuser mon counters such as altaria/skuntank for coming in which grants 1 turn for setup, which is basically all that shiftry and leafeon need to start beating those two as well. Theres also memento that further helps the abusers for setting up sd/growth. Overall, for normal teams, dugtrio is just eh, but for sun, I actually find it to be pretty good.
With snow warning, lycanroc and damp rock gone, 3/4th of the weather is already dead. However, sun I think is a really great playstyle that people arent touching yet for some reason. I could understand earlier when we had damp rock, because rain was just a better weather. However, it never meant that sun was bad. It is already an established fact that shiftry is an amazing breaker(probably the best even ngl). Now, imagine that same brute force with a 125 bp stab, a speed higher than scarf manectric and a stab 95bp fire move(sun raises power of fire move so said stab). Well, this beast isnt the only arsenal in sun. Theres exeggutor too, which is like basically the banned alola eggy with worse secondary stab. You think this guy gets walled easily due to spd walls, skuntank and steels right? Below are some calcs of calm mind exeggutor.
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Skuntank: 302-355 (87 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Solar Beam vs. 68 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 233-274 (83.8 - 98.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Solar Beam vs. 68 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 233-274 (83.8 - 98.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 304-359 (71.6 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 324-382 (79 - 93.1%)
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 273-321 (71.2 - 83.8%)
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 324-382 (79 - 93.1%)
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 273-321 (71.2 - 83.8%)
Exeggutor @ Life OrbLevel: 100
Modest Nature
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Psychic
- Calm Mind
- Solar Beam
- Psyshock
You dont like how ice shard and mach punch can easily revenge kill shiftry, especially since sun variant doesnt run sucker punch? I present to you smaller movepool, higher atk, higher defense shiftry, Leafeon!!
Leafeon would ideally run sd/solar blade/double edge/Knock off but you can also run weather ball to catch ferroseed by surprise and 2hko it.
at +2 life orb, solar blade ohkos skuntank while double edge ohkos altaria and has a chance to ohko articuno as well.
Dont like leafeon? You definitely cant say no to this next fan fav mon tho. Yeah, you guessed it right. Its ivysaur! Contrary to the popular belief, even with the 65 base spa ivysaur can be pretty destructive because of its fire/grass/poison coverage powered with growth.
Apart from the grass types there should definitely be 1 fire type in the sun team that support and cover the main sweepers. Now I would only suggest ninetales/rap but I suppose centiskorch can be slightly usable.
I will add below some replays that clearly show how dangerous sun can be.
(Note that the replays are from lycanroc time when essentially we had the same mons and lycanroc was only for revenge killing with priority, a role that basically just needs a strong priority user)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1303307005 (VS Ho3n)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1303335788 (VS gye5)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1302698981 (This is my spring opens battle against beksel. He had brought "screens" which took me by surprise and i lost my major cleaners aka leafeon and rapidash. However, ivysaur totally turned the tables. (I still lost due to an extremely stupid throw I am still ashamed of though ;_;)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1303335788 (VS gye5)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1302698981 (This is my spring opens battle against beksel. He had brought "screens" which took me by surprise and i lost my major cleaners aka leafeon and rapidash. However, ivysaur totally turned the tables. (I still lost due to an extremely stupid throw I am still ashamed of though ;_;)
2) Electric Terrain 
I will discuss both the terrains seperately.
So then, this electrifying playstyle is nice/decent but its kind of like sun/rain thing with the terrains. Both are good, but gterrain just does it better. Why you ask? Well, gterrain brings with it passive recovery and priority. However, etrrain is not far behind. It has it own advantages like sleep immunity and rising voltage. The only problem I see with this playstyle however, the fact that due to rotom/manectric spam, its already a kinda standard suggestion to have like 1 electric immunity in your team. In fact, ground vally and manectric are already great and fitting them in a team isnt that hard, meaning the biggest advantage of eterrain isnt too spammable and needs really great reads. But then there are eseed users too that lessen this trouble and makes eterrain better than what my previous statement describes.
Now then, as for what a general eterrain team looks like, you obviously have pincurchin and manectric. Since eterrain is weak to ground and most mons dont have good enough coverage to break something like rhydon or piloswine, drifblim with the power of strength sap,unburden and its typing, helps eterrain a lot. Considering the recent performance of g-rap that has been observed, its def a great choice and i would expect it on most terrain teams for its psychic/fairy/fire coverage at a speed of 339. Apart from this, rotom and liligant/raichu are great additions as rotom is already known to be a great mon(although idt its absolutely necessary to use it when you have drif blim and manectric on team) and liligant raichu with their grass/water moves ease ground mu. Now, i feel like evire due to its nice stats and ice/fire/electric/ground coverage can work as a decent option on eterrain to better your mu against frosmoth and altaria, tho idt its too good. Similarly, boltund and morpeko can be used as physical abusers to get past sp walls.
Now, since eterrain isnt exactly common, I would also like to discuss the sets that the mons here could run.
Pincurchin @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Rising Voltage
- Hydro Pump
- Spikes
- Memento/Sucker Punch
Rising voltage and terrain extender are obvious. Hydro pump is to take any incoming grounds by surprise(tho idt experienced players should be much surprised but yeah its a nice thing to have). Spikes are also nice since against eterrain, theres a lot of pivoting into electric immunities or even general answers to the eseed abusers, none of which run boots. sucker punch and memento are both good since sucker can revenge kill or hydro into sucker can eleminate the grounds, whereas memento eases pivoting and setup.
Manectric @ Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Volt Switch
- Flamethrower / Overheat
- Switcheroo
Manectric doesnt have much flexibility so its more or less the normal set with rvoltage over tbolt.
Electivire @ Life Orb
Ability: Motor Drive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fire Punch / Flamethrower
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Rising Voltage
Disclaimer: I dont exactly suggest this guy since manectric/rotom do special part better while boltund/morpeko do physical part better. This set is more of a lure and like a decent option if you want to use it.
So, first of all, you may ask if i have gone crazy or what since i have 3 physical attacks and then a random rvoltage, yet max spa and 0 atk.
Well, the lure set works like this: You spam rvoltage and when opponent uses frosmoth or altaria or faster elec mons to answer, you ohko them with your coverage. Well, you dont really get guaranteed ohko on altaria unless you run max atk(0 atk takes you to guaranteed 2hko. You could even run plain timid ngl. You still ohko everything bar altaria(which dies to rising into ice punch). So why not full physical? Cmon man, i already told you boltund and morpeko do that better. Also, since frosmoth isnt that common now, you can switch its lure to flamethrower to take down ferroseed instead.
Lilligant (F) @ Electric Seed
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 68 HP / 252 SpA / 188 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Giga Drain
- Nature Power
- Pollen Puff / Petal Dance / Substitute
The speed is to creep 262 speed mons before setup as well. quiver is obvious, giga drain is to damage + rejuvination. Nature power is a coverage against flying and a neutral coverage against steel that becomes tbolt while terrain is active and is ofc boosted as well. Finally theres sub if you wanna do shenanigans(i dont really recommend this tho), petal dance for pinch hitting(own tempo also prevents confusion from this which is cool) and pollen puff mainly for opposing grass types.
Raichu @ Life Orb
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Volt Switch / Focus Blast
- Surf
- Nasty Plot
Raichu set is pretty straight forward with voltage, pivot/better ferroseed mu,coverage and setup whenever you get an oppurtunity.
Boltund @ Life Orb
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Fang
- Fire Fang
- Psychic Fangs
- Volt Switch / Crunch / Nuzzle
Another straight forward set and an almost stabdard regular one. Vswitch is there cuz pivoting is nice and essential. Then there is stab, grass coverage and a neutral psychic coverage. Now, crunch is not a part of the set cuz most dark weak mons run colbur anyways, and for neutral coverage, pfangs is stronger. However, you can def run crunch as well, or go for the shenanigan set of nuzzle+fangs. If you face trouble against sawk scarf, you can use scarf adamant boltund too. Its not too shabby.
Rotom-Frost @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Volt Switch / Substitute
- Blizzard
- Nasty Plot
Idt there's much to say about this guy. You could maybe use wisp(to better kanga mu).
Rapidash-g and drifblim have the same set as in gterrain so I wont be discussing them.
So then, time to add replays.
(Note: I just slapped together random mons from this list just to get a rough idea of well its performing in actual battle and apparently its doing amazing!)
btw beware of scarf mold breaker 
, 
and 
. They are the biggest threat to eterrain. Well, sawk can still be managed with the help of drifblim,g-rap and scarf manectric, but piloswine can be a pain regardless. Same with thwackey. Thinking that its wrong info since with ssap and stuff drifblim is gonna beat all 3 of em? Good luck beating any of those 3 paired with kek.
(Edit: I added frostom later into the list since I forgot it existed kek, but it is a great choice to better your piloswine my and as long as its behind a sub, thwackey and sawk arent really troublesome for it. Even morpeko tbh cant do much while its behind a sub.)
I will discuss both the terrains seperately.
So then, this electrifying playstyle is nice/decent but its kind of like sun/rain thing with the terrains. Both are good, but gterrain just does it better. Why you ask? Well, gterrain brings with it passive recovery and priority. However, etrrain is not far behind. It has it own advantages like sleep immunity and rising voltage. The only problem I see with this playstyle however, the fact that due to rotom/manectric spam, its already a kinda standard suggestion to have like 1 electric immunity in your team. In fact, ground vally and manectric are already great and fitting them in a team isnt that hard, meaning the biggest advantage of eterrain isnt too spammable and needs really great reads. But then there are eseed users too that lessen this trouble and makes eterrain better than what my previous statement describes.
Now then, as for what a general eterrain team looks like, you obviously have pincurchin and manectric. Since eterrain is weak to ground and most mons dont have good enough coverage to break something like rhydon or piloswine, drifblim with the power of strength sap,unburden and its typing, helps eterrain a lot. Considering the recent performance of g-rap that has been observed, its def a great choice and i would expect it on most terrain teams for its psychic/fairy/fire coverage at a speed of 339. Apart from this, rotom and liligant/raichu are great additions as rotom is already known to be a great mon(although idt its absolutely necessary to use it when you have drif blim and manectric on team) and liligant raichu with their grass/water moves ease ground mu. Now, i feel like evire due to its nice stats and ice/fire/electric/ground coverage can work as a decent option on eterrain to better your mu against frosmoth and altaria, tho idt its too good. Similarly, boltund and morpeko can be used as physical abusers to get past sp walls.
Now, since eterrain isnt exactly common, I would also like to discuss the sets that the mons here could run.
Pincurchin @ Terrain ExtenderAbility: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Rising Voltage
- Hydro Pump
- Spikes
- Memento/Sucker Punch
Rising voltage and terrain extender are obvious. Hydro pump is to take any incoming grounds by surprise(tho idt experienced players should be much surprised but yeah its a nice thing to have). Spikes are also nice since against eterrain, theres a lot of pivoting into electric immunities or even general answers to the eseed abusers, none of which run boots. sucker punch and memento are both good since sucker can revenge kill or hydro into sucker can eleminate the grounds, whereas memento eases pivoting and setup.
Manectric @ Choice Scarf / Choice SpecsAbility: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Volt Switch
- Flamethrower / Overheat
- Switcheroo
Manectric doesnt have much flexibility so its more or less the normal set with rvoltage over tbolt.
Rotom @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf / Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball
- Trick / Nasty Plot
This guy on the other hand has a lot of flexibility and can run scarf to specs to np. Colbur is mainly to cover up for speed loss against persian and silvally dark and knock them out(since most teams dont run more than 1 dark type).
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball
- Trick / Nasty Plot
This guy on the other hand has a lot of flexibility and can run scarf to specs to np. Colbur is mainly to cover up for speed loss against persian and silvally dark and knock them out(since most teams dont run more than 1 dark type).
Electivire @ Life OrbAbility: Motor Drive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fire Punch / Flamethrower
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Rising Voltage
Disclaimer: I dont exactly suggest this guy since manectric/rotom do special part better while boltund/morpeko do physical part better. This set is more of a lure and like a decent option if you want to use it.
So, first of all, you may ask if i have gone crazy or what since i have 3 physical attacks and then a random rvoltage, yet max spa and 0 atk.
Well, the lure set works like this: You spam rvoltage and when opponent uses frosmoth or altaria or faster elec mons to answer, you ohko them with your coverage. Well, you dont really get guaranteed ohko on altaria unless you run max atk(0 atk takes you to guaranteed 2hko. You could even run plain timid ngl. You still ohko everything bar altaria(which dies to rising into ice punch). So why not full physical? Cmon man, i already told you boltund and morpeko do that better. Also, since frosmoth isnt that common now, you can switch its lure to flamethrower to take down ferroseed instead.
Lilligant (F) @ Electric Seed
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 68 HP / 252 SpA / 188 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Giga Drain
- Nature Power
- Pollen Puff / Petal Dance / Substitute
The speed is to creep 262 speed mons before setup as well. quiver is obvious, giga drain is to damage + rejuvination. Nature power is a coverage against flying and a neutral coverage against steel that becomes tbolt while terrain is active and is ofc boosted as well. Finally theres sub if you wanna do shenanigans(i dont really recommend this tho), petal dance for pinch hitting(own tempo also prevents confusion from this which is cool) and pollen puff mainly for opposing grass types.
Raichu @ Life OrbAbility: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Volt Switch / Focus Blast
- Surf
- Nasty Plot
Raichu set is pretty straight forward with voltage, pivot/better ferroseed mu,coverage and setup whenever you get an oppurtunity.
Boltund @ Life OrbAbility: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Fang
- Fire Fang
- Psychic Fangs
- Volt Switch / Crunch / Nuzzle
Another straight forward set and an almost stabdard regular one. Vswitch is there cuz pivoting is nice and essential. Then there is stab, grass coverage and a neutral psychic coverage. Now, crunch is not a part of the set cuz most dark weak mons run colbur anyways, and for neutral coverage, pfangs is stronger. However, you can def run crunch as well, or go for the shenanigan set of nuzzle+fangs. If you face trouble against sawk scarf, you can use scarf adamant boltund too. Its not too shabby.
Morpeko @ Choice Band / Heavy-duty Boots
Ability: Hunger Switch
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aura Wheel
- Crunch / Protect
- Seed Bomb / Super Fang
- Parting Shot
This one here is interesting. For banded set, 3 atk + pshot is the best thing imo cuz other coverage in its pool is pointless in front of aura wheel. Seed bomb is to hit rhydon. HDB set runs mono aura paired with protect for obvious reasons and super fang lets you hit stuff like tangela.
Ability: Hunger Switch
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aura Wheel
- Crunch / Protect
- Seed Bomb / Super Fang
- Parting Shot
This one here is interesting. For banded set, 3 atk + pshot is the best thing imo cuz other coverage in its pool is pointless in front of aura wheel. Seed bomb is to hit rhydon. HDB set runs mono aura paired with protect for obvious reasons and super fang lets you hit stuff like tangela.
Rotom-Frost @ Heavy-Duty BootsAbility: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Volt Switch / Substitute
- Blizzard
- Nasty Plot
Idt there's much to say about this guy. You could maybe use wisp(to better kanga mu).
So then, time to add replays.
(Note: I just slapped together random mons from this list just to get a rough idea of well its performing in actual battle and apparently its doing amazing!)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1349063891 (This was the first game i played and well lol. I totally misclicked pincurchins ability in teambuilder and I thought I was a goner but dang. Morpeko put in work and so did others, to claim victory without even eterrain being active for even a single turn.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1349067182 (Boltund Supremacy.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1349070482
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1349074792 (Sucker pin works as a good revenge killer granting victory in the game.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1349077892 (Dont sleep on lilligant. It has a chance to even beat centiskorch.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1349067182 (Boltund Supremacy.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1349070482
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1349074792 (Sucker pin works as a good revenge killer granting victory in the game.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8zu-1349077892 (Dont sleep on lilligant. It has a chance to even beat centiskorch.)
, and . They are the biggest threat to eterrain. Well, sawk can still be managed with the help of drifblim,g-rap and scarf manectric, but piloswine can be a pain regardless. Same with thwackey. Thinking that its wrong info since with ssap and stuff drifblim is gonna beat all 3 of em? Good luck beating any of those 3 paired with kek.(Edit: I added frostom later into the list since I forgot it existed kek, but it is a great choice to better your piloswine my and as long as its behind a sub, thwackey and sawk arent really troublesome for it. Even morpeko tbh cant do much while its behind a sub.)
3) Grassy terrain 
Evidently the better terrain. Btw, I wrote a lot in prev two archetypes because they are kinda rare and imo needed inh depth discussion. But, this one is rather famous so I will keep it rather small. The biggest merits of gterrain over eterrain are passive recovery, helping subsets to be more efficient; priority and the setter having a decent speed with uturn. If you are against a gterrain team, remember tht you dont underestimate it. Thats because, there are so many tricks available, that its rather difficult to prepare for them all. In fact, when I tried to make a team with minimum number of mons to counter this thing, i needed atleast 3 slots and even then the mu against one or the other mon was shaky.
I would also like to talk a lil bit about cake in gterrain when there is gorse around. So, the reason I even tested it is that I found gorse not have enough damage output. Alcremie runs no investment so does about same damage but higher bulk lets it set up more and it compresses recovery in dkiss. While this compression opens a slot usually for mystical fire I decided to let the team handle steel types and gave it sub with little speed investment to creep slow toxic / sleep powder / leech seed mons / and crept max speed rhydon creepers and the set did work wonders for me. I am adding that set below.
Well, whatever the case, it is currently an extremely famous playstyle and via experience many must have felt its wrath and what it can do. So, in this post I wont talk about the ways to abuse gterrain, but the ways to answer it efficiently and without restricting your teambuilding.
A]
Skuntank: This guy is probably a must for answering gterrain without restriction. While it doesnt do much if used mid game, it can be nerve wracking for the opponent on turn1 as a lead. Thats because if they start with thwackey, they are in a bind since dark pulse/sludge bomb is unhealthy for gterrain teams. The only problem can be if gterrain user starts with coalossal/Ninetales, the latter being rare and coalossal being considered the normally optimal choice. So what to do if coal becomes lead? Well you probably cant prepare for it all. You just need to make a read and start with fire answer if you think coal is gonna come(which is the case a lot of times unless opponent thinksskun will def not come first.
B]
Silvally(Normal): Ok so this guy is one rare mon and even on that, I am about to talk about special normal vally. So this is a good set ngl. You could either go flamethrower/ice beam/surf/grass pledge or tbolt or you could remove a move, sacrificing ferro or alt mu for stab(i prefer having stab over flamethrower so i will talk of that set) or setup with life orb. Thwack doesnt do enough and gets ohkod to ice/fire. Drifblim and thievul lose too. g-rap/swoobat can easily beat it however. So it takes carer of most abusers, but what of treva nd flap? If you have over 68% health, you can do 65-75% to trev and you basically lose to flap. Tbh, i would not recommend you to try to beat flap and trev with vally, cuz you are gonna need it for the seed abusers and are gonna get dented there.
C]
Qwilfish: This guy works similar to skuntank, but instead of threatning switches offensively, it threatens with the potential thunder wave. The upper hand over skuntank is that it has a great mu against fire leads as well and can start setting spikes on oppurtunities as well.
D] Coalossal: Threatens defensively. can burn thwack on uturn as well. Thieul needs time to break it which it can't afford and even drifblim doesn't like switch in on it.
E]
Perrserker: Banded perserker can function as a good pivot lead and works wore like skun than qwil and works best with something like piloswine or altaria to switch in on the fire leads of opponent.
Evidently the better terrain. Btw, I wrote a lot in prev two archetypes because they are kinda rare and imo needed inh depth discussion. But, this one is rather famous so I will keep it rather small. The biggest merits of gterrain over eterrain are passive recovery, helping subsets to be more efficient; priority and the setter having a decent speed with uturn. If you are against a gterrain team, remember tht you dont underestimate it. Thats because, there are so many tricks available, that its rather difficult to prepare for them all. In fact, when I tried to make a team with minimum number of mons to counter this thing, i needed atleast 3 slots and even then the mu against one or the other mon was shaky.
I would also like to talk a lil bit about cake in gterrain when there is gorse around. So, the reason I even tested it is that I found gorse not have enough damage output. Alcremie runs no investment so does about same damage but higher bulk lets it set up more and it compresses recovery in dkiss. While this compression opens a slot usually for mystical fire I decided to let the team handle steel types and gave it sub with little speed investment to creep slow toxic / sleep powder / leech seed mons / and crept max speed rhydon creepers and the set did work wonders for me. I am adding that set below.
Alcremie (F) @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Def / 68 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Stored Power
- Substitute
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Def / 68 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Stored Power
- Substitute
A]
Skuntank: This guy is probably a must for answering gterrain without restriction. While it doesnt do much if used mid game, it can be nerve wracking for the opponent on turn1 as a lead. Thats because if they start with thwackey, they are in a bind since dark pulse/sludge bomb is unhealthy for gterrain teams. The only problem can be if gterrain user starts with coalossal/Ninetales, the latter being rare and coalossal being considered the normally optimal choice. So what to do if coal becomes lead? Well you probably cant prepare for it all. You just need to make a read and start with fire answer if you think coal is gonna come(which is the case a lot of times unless opponent thinksskun will def not come first.B]
Silvally(Normal): Ok so this guy is one rare mon and even on that, I am about to talk about special normal vally. So this is a good set ngl. You could either go flamethrower/ice beam/surf/grass pledge or tbolt or you could remove a move, sacrificing ferro or alt mu for stab(i prefer having stab over flamethrower so i will talk of that set) or setup with life orb. Thwack doesnt do enough and gets ohkod to ice/fire. Drifblim and thievul lose too. g-rap/swoobat can easily beat it however. So it takes carer of most abusers, but what of treva nd flap? If you have over 68% health, you can do 65-75% to trev and you basically lose to flap. Tbh, i would not recommend you to try to beat flap and trev with vally, cuz you are gonna need it for the seed abusers and are gonna get dented there.C]
Qwilfish: This guy works similar to skuntank, but instead of threatning switches offensively, it threatens with the potential thunder wave. The upper hand over skuntank is that it has a great mu against fire leads as well and can start setting spikes on oppurtunities as well.D]
Coalossal: Threatens defensively. can burn thwack on uturn as well. Thieul needs time to break it which it can't afford and even drifblim doesn't like switch in on it.E]
Perrserker: Banded perserker can function as a good pivot lead and works wore like skun than qwil and works best with something like piloswine or altaria to switch in on the fire leads of opponent.4) Hyper Offense (HO) 
(small)
I feel like HO rn is really good and about at par with balance. We have a great deal of breakers and their diversity is HUGE! The tools of each are also so diversified that its kinda hard to keep the post small and discuss them all. So, bifurcation again.
These mons represent the best HO members in general (IMO ofc) and you can see that its quite a lot of them.There is not much to talk in this bifurcation, cuz its generalized. Real talk is from next bifurcation.
So we have quite a few stall breakers which is a matter of joy, especially for someone like me who normally has about 20% wr against stall.
Alola sian is one of the most useful mons as it fits easily on almost any team and with its tools like knock/toxic/taunt it easily bullies stall teams. Like stall can def pressure it with stuff like mawile or hurricane altaria and leaf storm tangela but its not alone and stand alone raises big pressure on any stall team.
Skuntank is soo good rn ngl. Np taunt is really handy and bullies stall just like alola sian. mawile is the only thing that may or may not trouble skun.
Shiftry is not just an amazing stall breaker, but one of the best breakers in the meta in general. If you think that taunt toxic and trick are the only ways to cripple stall, then this guy here is ready to prove you wrong. with sd/knock it destroys audino and altaria, while also criples tangela with its knock. While pyuku can be troublesome for most ho mons, this guy doesnt give a crap because of its knock+leaf storm. this guy is so relevant and outstanding, I am gonna add calcs for it too(which isnt something i will be doing for most other mons due to time issues and lot of space usage etc.).
Stonjourner wasnt being used for quite a while due to lycan midday being excellent. Even now, its not so popular as generally rhydon is used as a bulky offensive rock type instead. However, this guy sure has some amazing calcs and def is a good stall breaker as well because ntg can safely switchin on it.
Flapple's main strength is hustle grav apple(which is also its greatest weakness kek). Nothing on stall can safely switch in on it.Also has outrage/dmeteor for shenaigans and u turn to gete out of unforseen circumstances.
Jynx is again a great mon in general and i personally like specs or sub np. Stall has hard time against its offensive power.
Frostom with sub np sits on top of stall and laughs like crazy.
Similar to frostom, sub plot or different from frostom, wisp hex.
:ss/klingklang No fear, Shift Gear! Nah kidding. While the set does have shift gear and gear grind, stall is grinded with the remaining two moves, sub+tox.
Frostom style: Sub plot/cm justsu!
(small)
This section doesnt need much discussion imo. Kanga has double priority in fake punch; Sawk with scarf outspeeds a lot and its coverage is kinda hard to switch into, while even with band its speed isnt too shabby and in that case, its even harder to switch in on it; Shiftry was already discussed in stall breaker so we know how strong its sucker is and if you risk switching out, you might also end up facing +2 shiftry; Thwackey is just such a great mon rn. Def one of the best ones due to how much support it gives even outside of full gterrain. banded gglide and wood hammers can send even your defensive cores flying if you arent careful and u turn/knock aids its revenge killing power as well; flapple was also discussed and carelessness can have you face +1 atk +1 speed flapple. Manectric and rotom are scarfers but they have good speed so even specs has revenging capability; Spiritombs only set with revenge killing is a really unpopular set that actually has really great performance, namely lo spiritomb with ss/suck/polter/payback; small gourg is again similar to rotom or manectric in revenge killing;Ninetales is really fast and has good coverage to hit most stuff while also threatens with potential np breaking if you switch carelessly;cinccino being one of the fastest mons in the tier is an obvious revenge killer with a handy ability; froslass has sucker if needed and is naturally fast as well; basc is one the best pivots and revenge killers and its greatest merit is its awesome flexibility; dug alola is similar to froslass.
(small)I feel like HO rn is really good and about at par with balance. We have a great deal of breakers and their diversity is HUGE! The tools of each are also so diversified that its kinda hard to keep the post small and discuss them all. So, bifurcation again.
These mons represent the best HO members in general (IMO ofc) and you can see that its quite a lot of them.There is not much to talk in this bifurcation, cuz its generalized. Real talk is from next bifurcation.
So we have quite a few stall breakers which is a matter of joy, especially for someone like me who normally has about 20% wr against stall.
Alola sian is one of the most useful mons as it fits easily on almost any team and with its tools like knock/toxic/taunt it easily bullies stall teams. Like stall can def pressure it with stuff like mawile or hurricane altaria and leaf storm tangela but its not alone and stand alone raises big pressure on any stall team. Skuntank is soo good rn ngl. Np taunt is really handy and bullies stall just like alola sian. mawile is the only thing that may or may not trouble skun. Shiftry is not just an amazing stall breaker, but one of the best breakers in the meta in general. If you think that taunt toxic and trick are the only ways to cripple stall, then this guy here is ready to prove you wrong. with sd/knock it destroys audino and altaria, while also criples tangela with its knock. While pyuku can be troublesome for most ho mons, this guy doesnt give a crap because of its knock+leaf storm. this guy is so relevant and outstanding, I am gonna add calcs for it too(which isnt something i will be doing for most other mons due to time issues and lot of space usage etc.).252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 113-134 (36.1 - 42.8%)
4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pyukumuku: 265-315 (84.6 - 100.6%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Pyukumuku: 149-177 (47.6 - 56.5%)
4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyukumuku: 203-242 (64.8 - 77.3%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Altaria: 329-387 (92.9 - 109.3%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 425-500 (103.6 - 121.9%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Cofagrigus: 208-247 (65.2 - 77.4%) (if you have bopped the colbur earlier, then even this guy doesnt stay)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ground: 285-335 (86.1 - 101.2%) Outspeeding it doesnt matter much either.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 376-445 (98.1 - 116.1%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinccino: 411-485 (141.2 - 166.6%)
4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pyukumuku: 265-315 (84.6 - 100.6%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Pyukumuku: 149-177 (47.6 - 56.5%)
4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyukumuku: 203-242 (64.8 - 77.3%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Altaria: 329-387 (92.9 - 109.3%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 425-500 (103.6 - 121.9%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Cofagrigus: 208-247 (65.2 - 77.4%) (if you have bopped the colbur earlier, then even this guy doesnt stay)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ground: 285-335 (86.1 - 101.2%) Outspeeding it doesnt matter much either.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 376-445 (98.1 - 116.1%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinccino: 411-485 (141.2 - 166.6%)
Stonjourner wasnt being used for quite a while due to lycan midday being excellent. Even now, its not so popular as generally rhydon is used as a bulky offensive rock type instead. However, this guy sure has some amazing calcs and def is a good stall breaker as well because ntg can safely switchin on it.252+ Atk Choice Band Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 144-171 (45.1 - 53.6%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stonjourner Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 182-216 (54.4 - 64.6%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Altaria: 458-540 (129.3 - 152.5%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 295-348 (71.9 - 84.8%) (if it runs superpower, ciao audino)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 157-186 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Stonjourner Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 336-396 (110.5 - 130.2%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stonjourner Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 182-216 (54.4 - 64.6%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Altaria: 458-540 (129.3 - 152.5%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 295-348 (71.9 - 84.8%) (if it runs superpower, ciao audino)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 157-186 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Stonjourner Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 336-396 (110.5 - 130.2%)
Flapple's main strength is hustle grav apple(which is also its greatest weakness kek). Nothing on stall can safely switch in on it.Also has outrage/dmeteor for shenaigans and u turn to gete out of unforseen circumstances. Jynx is again a great mon in general and i personally like specs or sub np. Stall has hard time against its offensive power. Frostom with sub np sits on top of stall and laughs like crazy. Similar to frostom, sub plot or different from frostom, wisp hex.:ss/klingklang No fear, Shift Gear! Nah kidding. While the set does have shift gear and gear grind, stall is grinded with the remaining two moves, sub+tox.
Frostom style: Sub plot/cm justsu!(small)This section doesnt need much discussion imo. Kanga has double priority in fake punch; Sawk with scarf outspeeds a lot and its coverage is kinda hard to switch into, while even with band its speed isnt too shabby and in that case, its even harder to switch in on it; Shiftry was already discussed in stall breaker so we know how strong its sucker is and if you risk switching out, you might also end up facing +2 shiftry; Thwackey is just such a great mon rn. Def one of the best ones due to how much support it gives even outside of full gterrain. banded gglide and wood hammers can send even your defensive cores flying if you arent careful and u turn/knock aids its revenge killing power as well; flapple was also discussed and carelessness can have you face +1 atk +1 speed flapple. Manectric and rotom are scarfers but they have good speed so even specs has revenging capability; Spiritombs only set with revenge killing is a really unpopular set that actually has really great performance, namely lo spiritomb with ss/suck/polter/payback; small gourg is again similar to rotom or manectric in revenge killing;Ninetales is really fast and has good coverage to hit most stuff while also threatens with potential np breaking if you switch carelessly;cinccino being one of the fastest mons in the tier is an obvious revenge killer with a handy ability; froslass has sucker if needed and is naturally fast as well; basc is one the best pivots and revenge killers and its greatest merit is its awesome flexibility; dug alola is similar to froslass.
5) Bulky Offense (BO)
6) Balance
7) Stall
8) Trick Room (TR)
LOW USAGE MONS THAT ARE ACTUALLY KINDA NEAT or DECENT AND WIERD BUT EFFECTIVE SETS I FOUGHT ON LADDER:
SUSPECT TEST VIEWS:
Recently, there has been a lot of talk regarding suspect tests, both on the current mons and on mons that are in ZUBL. I personally think that a suspect would be best in late july, that is after shifts, since some of the big changes are expected to occur. For instance, there is a strong chance that thwackey(probably the most deserving of suspect) and garbodor(which has a great influence on meta) might rise to PU.
Anyways, assuming we have suspect tests say starting from tomorrow. In that case, I think
(Ground),and
deserve it.
1)
Monke Supremacy: Thwack in itself is a good breaker and provides great support to a team as well, namely equake nerf, passive recovery, gglide abusing, gseed sets, powering up grass type moves of team to hit bulky waters better. I mean look at the calcs below.
The monke also got a nice 259 speed for good uturns. Knock is always handy especially for hitting its answers, like centisckorch/altaria/articuno/tangela etc. Truth be told, thwackey is soo good and prevelant that I wouldnt mind a suspect on it right away. Then again, it helps tier get effective diversity and keeps broken stuff like vally ground in check so it might be kinda healthy too. Anyway, I am lowkey hoping it rises to PU next shift(which is very much possible) and if it doesnt by chance, then I think we should have an immediate suspect on it at that time.
2)
Recently, there has been a lot of talk regarding suspect tests, both on the current mons and on mons that are in ZUBL. I personally think that a suspect would be best in late july, that is after shifts, since some of the big changes are expected to occur. For instance, there is a strong chance that thwackey(probably the most deserving of suspect) and garbodor(which has a great influence on meta) might rise to PU.
Anyways, assuming we have suspect tests say starting from tomorrow. In that case, I think
(Ground),and deserve it.1)
Monke Supremacy: Thwack in itself is a good breaker and provides great support to a team as well, namely equake nerf, passive recovery, gglide abusing, gseed sets, powering up grass type moves of team to hit bulky waters better. I mean look at the calcs below.+2 252 SpA Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 60 SpD Cramorant: 140-165 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 60 SpD Cramorant in Grassy Terrain: 181-214 (52.7 - 62.3%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Thwackey Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ground in Grassy Terrain: 384-452 (116 - 136.5%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Thwackey U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 112-134 (31.6 - 37.8%)
+2 252 SpA Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 60 SpD Cramorant in Grassy Terrain: 181-214 (52.7 - 62.3%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Thwackey Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ground in Grassy Terrain: 384-452 (116 - 136.5%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Thwackey U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 112-134 (31.6 - 37.8%)
2)
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Hello, I don't if this is the right place to ask, but where I can I see what mons are banned from ZU?
Currently, as of post-January shifts:
Haunter, Toxicroak, and Scrafty have been banned to ZUBL (the latter two are now top PU Pokemon) on January 10th.
Alolan-Exeggutor and Vikavolt have been banned to ZUBL on January 17th.
Gallade and Turtonator have been banned to ZUBL on February 6th.
Sneasel has been banned to ZUBL on February 24th.
Drampa, Omastar, Magmortar, and Silvally-Dragon have been banned to ZUBL on March 7th. (Omastar is now PUBL)
Magneton has been banned to ZUBL on April 17th.
Hope this helps.
So this is going to be another pretty unorganized post but there's been this style of offensive that's been called "new skorch offense" that people have been having a ton of success with in tournaments recently (most notably dani in almost every single week of ssnl and 5gen using it vs hoen for ZULT) but the idea behind why it works actually can be applied to many more cores and that's what I really wanna dig at in this post because its much closer to just optimized offense.
So lets talk about the why it works and then give some examples that follow the same overall trend. So the reason this works is you look at the general Centiskorch switch ins; Cramorant, Golbat, Altaria, utility Rapidash, Qwilfish, Garbodor, and Coal. So looking at that list of pokemon, almost all of them absolutely despite knock off which is very fortune for the core because skorch is notorious for its knock off spamming early game. It has enough offensive pressure to force in almost the exact same pokemon every single time without fail which makes taking those knocks into account when building super easy, which lets stuff like the infamous specs Poliwrath shine by taking advantage of a knocked Cramorant and breaking through that if you can maintain rocks and coming in on things like Qwilfish, Garbodor, Coal, and utility Rapidash and continue the wall breaking onslaught.
This core is all about its ability to force very specific knock offs and have a way to follow through with those knock offs to gain meaningful advantages.
So this concept of being able to force very specific knock offs and building in planned support for that goes even farther than just Skorch teams. Thwacky is in a very similar situation of being able to force out a large number of pokemon and have a pool of pokemon like Tangela, Golbat, Altaria, and Ferroseed that can switch into it which all hate knock off. This allows something like Kangaskan to come in and shine because with Adamant and a silk scarf its able to plow through a knocked Tangela if you maintain rocks as well as breaking through stuff like Golbat and Ferroseed which would again otherwise give it a much harder time.
I think this lack of understanding or under valuing of the power of setting up knock offs for mons like Kangaskan is why kanga had such a poor showing in UMPL. Almost half the teams using it offered no way to get past things like Tangela and expected it to just be able to gain advantage against teams and instead just have a wall sit on its face for the entire game. This mon is so much more terrifying when given proper knock off support.
But Skorch/Thwacky aren't the only ones who can abuse this little quirk of team building right now. The above mons are also able to fish for hyper-specific knock offs which can open the way for a large number of abusers to gain really meaningful advantage off it.
Its honestly just limited to the creativity of the builder and I want to encourage people to keep riding this wave we're seeing and experimenting with more optimized teams and start punishing teams for not having good knock off absorbers. The amount of tangelas/crams/ferroseed/golbats that you're able to reliably knock right now is way too high and there are very real ways to punish a lot of balance cores people are using. The only really good knock absorber people are using right now is Alcremie so as long as you're mindful of that match up or use knock off mons that aren't inviting that mon in then you're pretty much set up.
I think moving forward we're either going to see a shift away from Tangela cores when offense and balance more reliably take this approach and replace it for physical walls that aren't crippled by knock off as much, or we see more dedicated knock off switch ins become staple on teams. I'm not sure which direction its going to go into yet but its going to be fun to see how the meta evolves with offense starting to get more optimzed.
The above is a team that pretty much uses all of the above concepts that I built for Dani's seasonal match vs Landon in a very hyper synergistic way. So if you need a team to start trying this out I think this is a perfect showcase of how easy it is to abuse knock off, all in a hyper offense shell.
So lets talk about the why it works and then give some examples that follow the same overall trend. So the reason this works is you look at the general Centiskorch switch ins; Cramorant, Golbat, Altaria, utility Rapidash, Qwilfish, Garbodor, and Coal. So looking at that list of pokemon, almost all of them absolutely despite knock off which is very fortune for the core because skorch is notorious for its knock off spamming early game. It has enough offensive pressure to force in almost the exact same pokemon every single time without fail which makes taking those knocks into account when building super easy, which lets stuff like the infamous specs Poliwrath shine by taking advantage of a knocked Cramorant and breaking through that if you can maintain rocks and coming in on things like Qwilfish, Garbodor, Coal, and utility Rapidash and continue the wall breaking onslaught.
This core is all about its ability to force very specific knock offs and have a way to follow through with those knock offs to gain meaningful advantages.
So this concept of being able to force very specific knock offs and building in planned support for that goes even farther than just Skorch teams. Thwacky is in a very similar situation of being able to force out a large number of pokemon and have a pool of pokemon like Tangela, Golbat, Altaria, and Ferroseed that can switch into it which all hate knock off. This allows something like Kangaskan to come in and shine because with Adamant and a silk scarf its able to plow through a knocked Tangela if you maintain rocks as well as breaking through stuff like Golbat and Ferroseed which would again otherwise give it a much harder time.
I think this lack of understanding or under valuing of the power of setting up knock offs for mons like Kangaskan is why kanga had such a poor showing in UMPL. Almost half the teams using it offered no way to get past things like Tangela and expected it to just be able to gain advantage against teams and instead just have a wall sit on its face for the entire game. This mon is so much more terrifying when given proper knock off support.
But Skorch/Thwacky aren't the only ones who can abuse this little quirk of team building right now. The above mons are also able to fish for hyper-specific knock offs which can open the way for a large number of abusers to gain really meaningful advantage off it.
Its honestly just limited to the creativity of the builder and I want to encourage people to keep riding this wave we're seeing and experimenting with more optimized teams and start punishing teams for not having good knock off absorbers. The amount of tangelas/crams/ferroseed/golbats that you're able to reliably knock right now is way too high and there are very real ways to punish a lot of balance cores people are using. The only really good knock absorber people are using right now is Alcremie so as long as you're mindful of that match up or use knock off mons that aren't inviting that mon in then you're pretty much set up.
I think moving forward we're either going to see a shift away from Tangela cores when offense and balance more reliably take this approach and replace it for physical walls that aren't crippled by knock off as much, or we see more dedicated knock off switch ins become staple on teams. I'm not sure which direction its going to go into yet but its going to be fun to see how the meta evolves with offense starting to get more optimzed.
The above is a team that pretty much uses all of the above concepts that I built for Dani's seasonal match vs Landon in a very hyper synergistic way. So if you need a team to start trying this out I think this is a perfect showcase of how easy it is to abuse knock off, all in a hyper offense shell.
So the general idea is you want an offensive rocker to use on these types of teams as there's no point in knocking boots if you can't maintain rocks and rhydon happens to be the best mon in the tier at doing that while also patching up a lot of holes.
Skorch comes in early to fish for key knock offs like Cram, utility Rapidash, bat, and Coal, which in turn gives Thwacky and Poliwraith free reign once they've been cripples. Thwacky also sets up knock offs on pokemon like Tangela and Ferroseed which not only sets up Kanga but also allows Poliwraith to more easily spam Hydro Pumps the entire game without worrying about water resists. Rotom kinda just fills in the last because its the best offensive glue in the tier thanks to the double immunity to play with and constant momentum grabbing.
I did have Toxic originally in the replay but after switching my Centiskorch to Jolly to outpace Cramorant and Garbodor which turns them both into one time switch ins, I felt more comfortable dropping it. The jolly Skorch tech is a reward to the people who read this far in so enjoy.Or it would be if I grabbed the right paste. I'll fix that tomorrow
Skorch comes in early to fish for key knock offs like Cram, utility Rapidash, bat, and Coal, which in turn gives Thwacky and Poliwraith free reign once they've been cripples. Thwacky also sets up knock offs on pokemon like Tangela and Ferroseed which not only sets up Kanga but also allows Poliwraith to more easily spam Hydro Pumps the entire game without worrying about water resists. Rotom kinda just fills in the last because its the best offensive glue in the tier thanks to the double immunity to play with and constant momentum grabbing.
I did have Toxic originally in the replay but after switching my Centiskorch to Jolly to outpace Cramorant and Garbodor which turns them both into one time switch ins, I felt more comfortable dropping it. The jolly Skorch tech is a reward to the people who read this far in so enjoy.
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Wanted to share a set I've liked using recently:
PerrZZZerker
Perrserker @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Steely Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- U-turn
- Iron Head
When building teams, I often look at them at the end and realise I have no ice resists (/freeze dry resists) at all, allowing well-played Glaceons and Frosmoths to take names every time they come in. Aside from a handful of mons like Articuno, Thick Fat Miltank and bulky Rapidash not much can repeatedly switch in on these threats and also provider wider benefit to the team. I also often end up with no flying/fairy resists and this led me to try out some defensive steel-types, but with the loose exception of Gunfisk and Ferro, none of the steels in this tier are really built for longevity.
Eventually I came up with RestTalk SpDef pivot Perrserker, which actually functions pretty similarly to the Wishiwashi set but comes in on a different set of Pokemon. The idea of the set is to wrest momentum from the opposing team by switching in on their Frosmoth/Cuno/Altaria/Cinccino/etc., threatening out with Steely Spirit-boosted Iron Head and then slow pivoting on whatever comes in next. Rest means that you can continue switching in to these threats for the entire game while Sleep Talk gives you a 2/3 chance to either hit with Iron Head or pivot out during sleep turns, dissuading opposing players from just switching in a Sawk as soon as Perrserker dozes off. I like rocky helmet as an item as this punishes Cinccinos and U-Turners more effectively, but leftovers would also work fine.
The set can also serve as a stop to some variants of Rapidash-Galar and Alcremie and act as a status absorber too. It obviously needs partners in the team to deal with Sawks, Rapidash, Silv-Ground etc. but it's somehow become a set I just chuck on half my teams because it really compresses a few different defensive roles nicely and opens up the rest of the team for more interesting building.
Give it a go and see if it works for you.
PerrZZZerkerPerrserker @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Steely Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- U-turn
- Iron Head
When building teams, I often look at them at the end and realise I have no ice resists (/freeze dry resists) at all, allowing well-played Glaceons and Frosmoths to take names every time they come in. Aside from a handful of mons like Articuno, Thick Fat Miltank and bulky Rapidash not much can repeatedly switch in on these threats and also provider wider benefit to the team. I also often end up with no flying/fairy resists and this led me to try out some defensive steel-types, but with the loose exception of Gunfisk and Ferro, none of the steels in this tier are really built for longevity.
Eventually I came up with RestTalk SpDef pivot Perrserker, which actually functions pretty similarly to the Wishiwashi set but comes in on a different set of Pokemon. The idea of the set is to wrest momentum from the opposing team by switching in on their Frosmoth/Cuno/Altaria/Cinccino/etc., threatening out with Steely Spirit-boosted Iron Head and then slow pivoting on whatever comes in next. Rest means that you can continue switching in to these threats for the entire game while Sleep Talk gives you a 2/3 chance to either hit with Iron Head or pivot out during sleep turns, dissuading opposing players from just switching in a Sawk as soon as Perrserker dozes off. I like rocky helmet as an item as this punishes Cinccinos and U-Turners more effectively, but leftovers would also work fine.
The set can also serve as a stop to some variants of Rapidash-Galar and Alcremie and act as a status absorber too. It obviously needs partners in the team to deal with Sawks, Rapidash, Silv-Ground etc. but it's somehow become a set I just chuck on half my teams because it really compresses a few different defensive roles nicely and opens up the rest of the team for more interesting building.
Give it a go and see if it works for you.
So, I've been wanting to talk about mixed breakers for a few days now, and was inspired to finally do so after something Serving Suggestion's shared this morning in the Viability Rankings thread.
In my mind, it begins with Tangela. Tangela is the preeminent physical wall in the tier and every good builder intends to account for it somehow. Usually, that's accompished by exploiting its special defense stat, but its access to Regenerator and a menu of quality special walls it can retreat to make it really hard to break. Some of the tier's best offensive Pokemon are physical attackers, so Tangela's presence can be very obstructive to offensive teams. Of course, Tangela isn't the only capable physical wall in the tier, but I think the reason balance is so good right now is because there are lots of Pokemon with which to create reliable, synergistic defensive cores.
I think the tier is in a good place right now generally, but balance is going to continue to be the most popular playstyle unless 1) defensive staples graduate to higher tiers, 2) more breakers trickle down to us, and/or 3) offensive teams develop ways to more consistently exploit these defensive cores with our current suite of ZU Pokemon. Enter mixed breakers.
I am (partially) theorymonning at this point, but there are several Pokemon available to fulfill this role. Serving Suggestion's Electrivire set is one example. beauts recently highlighted Silvally-Electric's potential to serve as a mixed breaker; I had also been experimenting with a more physically-invested Silvally-Electric that I found to be effective.
Something I've begun experimenting with has been Shiftry and I've found a lot of defensive threats fail to counter it (assuming you play it right), but its frailness necessitates slow pivot support and its middling speed tier makes it a mark for revenge killing. (If you're curious about this Shiftry set specifically, I've included a table that gives you a sense for how it can beat some B-or-better-ranked defensive Pokemon who may try to counter it, but I wanted to focus on mixed breakers in general and not this Shiftry set specifically.)
Flapple is another option I intend to experiment with in the coming days. Hustle boosts its 115 Attack stat and affords it the ability to hit 289 SpA with a +Spe nature. Furthermore, it has access to Growth to boost both attacking stats and has STAB Draco Meteor to push through Tangela.
I'm also intrigued, albeit to a lesser extent, by Lurantis and even Cradily and Lickilicky as mixed breakers, as the latter two have great movepools, natural bulk, and a balanced distribution of Atk/SpA stats.
Like I said, a lot of this is theorymonning and I acknowledge that these Pokemon have their weaknesses. Namely, they often require some degree of setup and are easy to revenge kill. That said, I would encourage people to continue experimenting with mixed breakers and to share whatever cool sets they find with the community like beauts and Serving Suggestion have. Happy laddering!
I have not played with this particular Electrivire set, but I will say that I've noticed more people are starting to experiment in order to identify mixed breakers. I believe this is a response to the prevalence of balance in the current metagame.
I don't have a super long compelling argument for this but I think mixed Electivire is in quite a nice spot right now, with coverage that threatens a lot of the walls in the tier, cleaning the way for other mons that would otherwise struggle to break through. 123/95 offensive stats are pretty nice, and Evire has two decent abilities to choose from as well.
252 Atk Expert Belt Electivire Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ground: 199-235 (60.1 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Expert Belt Electivire Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 204-240 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Expert Belt Electivire Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 163-192 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Electivire Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Altaria: 331-394 (93.5 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Electivire Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Stunfisk: 242-286 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Expert Belt Electivire Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Fan: 178-211 (58.5 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Electivire Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Miltank: 242-286 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I actually played around with CB for this guy a bit too but imo Electivire needs the versatility of not being locked into one move.
Again, key drawbacks:
- Doesn't have the power to break walls it's not packing a SE move for
- Slight 4MSS: Wild Charge, Cross Chop, Ice Punch, Flamethrower, Earthquake; even Toxic and Volt Switch are all useful depending on the situation
- Speed ties with Silvallys
In my mind, it begins with Tangela. Tangela is the preeminent physical wall in the tier and every good builder intends to account for it somehow. Usually, that's accompished by exploiting its special defense stat, but its access to Regenerator and a menu of quality special walls it can retreat to make it really hard to break. Some of the tier's best offensive Pokemon are physical attackers, so Tangela's presence can be very obstructive to offensive teams. Of course, Tangela isn't the only capable physical wall in the tier, but I think the reason balance is so good right now is because there are lots of Pokemon with which to create reliable, synergistic defensive cores.
I think the tier is in a good place right now generally, but balance is going to continue to be the most popular playstyle unless 1) defensive staples graduate to higher tiers, 2) more breakers trickle down to us, and/or 3) offensive teams develop ways to more consistently exploit these defensive cores with our current suite of ZU Pokemon. Enter mixed breakers.
I am (partially) theorymonning at this point, but there are several Pokemon available to fulfill this role. Serving Suggestion's Electrivire set is one example. beauts recently highlighted Silvally-Electric's potential to serve as a mixed breaker; I had also been experimenting with a more physically-invested Silvally-Electric that I found to be effective.
Something I've begun experimenting with has been Shiftry and I've found a lot of defensive threats fail to counter it (assuming you play it right), but its frailness necessitates slow pivot support and its middling speed tier makes it a mark for revenge killing. (If you're curious about this Shiftry set specifically, I've included a table that gives you a sense for how it can beat some B-or-better-ranked defensive Pokemon who may try to counter it, but I wanted to focus on mixed breakers in general and not this Shiftry set specifically.)
The far right column indicates what the ideal strategy is if you're anticipating a switch-in from said Pokemon. Blue indicates a very favorable matchup, green indicates a favorable matchup, yellow is 50-50, orange is unfavorable but winnable, and red is almost certainly a death sentence. It should be noted that some of these Pokemon would be ill-advised to switch into Shiftry; I simply wanted to illustrate how it might be problematic for teams to deal with.
I'm also intrigued, albeit to a lesser extent, by Lurantis and even Cradily and Lickilicky as mixed breakers, as the latter two have great movepools, natural bulk, and a balanced distribution of Atk/SpA stats.
Like I said, a lot of this is theorymonning and I acknowledge that these Pokemon have their weaknesses. Namely, they often require some degree of setup and are easy to revenge kill. That said, I would encourage people to continue experimenting with mixed breakers and to share whatever cool sets they find with the community like beauts and Serving Suggestion have. Happy laddering!
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Grassy Terrain halves the power of Earthquake, so High Horsepower is preferred when Rhydon is being used on the same team as Thwackey.
As for Knock Off, the move is just very solid most tiers because many Pokemon are very item dependent. In ZU a lot of Defog users rely on Heavy-Duty Boots in order to not be worn down every time they try to clear away hazards. Tangela, Rhydon, and other NFEs rely on Eviolite for a lot of their bulk, especially on the special side for the ones I mentioned specifically, so Knock Off makes it far easier to break them. As for other Pokemon, just losing Leftovers means no passive recovery which changes rolls and makes it easier for said mons to be KOed long term, while offensive items like Choice Scarf or Silk Scarf being removed either stops Pokemon from being effective revenge killers or weakens them enough so that they can no longer 2HKO certain walls. Knock Off just ends up being a very spammable move, especially early on with very little drawback in most scenarios as except for Silvally formes, there aren't really Knock Off absorbers, and Silvally lacks recovery and doesn't want to be switching into the move all the time.
apologies for the short post, maybe I'll think or smth more to add in the near future
ok post zult teamdump lets gooooooooooo
all these teams i (have now) nicknamed after some of my favorite drag race scenes/quote so if ur homophobic beware (click teams for pokepastes)
Shangela vs Mimi Imfurst (Meteor Beam Coal)
So, while I didn't get to use this team for ZULT, I still think it’s very fun. I built this originally based on a previous team I used in NFE (RMT in sig) that utilized a really fun core of Gabite + Carkol, in which Gabite provided a lot of the defensive utility for Carkol, which functioned as this offensive spinner that could set spikes and also pop unsuspecting Defog users such as Vull/Bat with Meteor Beam for maximum funnies. This core of Coalossal + Uxie functions similarly, where Uxie eats a lot of the hits from basically everything while Coalossal sets Spikes, occasionally spins, and clicks Meteor Beam when it can. A lot of Defog users like Cram/Altaria feel comfortable clicking Roost and eating a Rock Blast, which gives Coal opportunity to click the funny button and do a lot of damage. Spin also has the cool utility of boosting Coal's speed, outspeeding fat Cram, Altaria, etc at +1. Meteor Beam also lets you continue to sit in on fat stuff like Audino and just get a bajillion boosts, forcing your opponent to have to play around Coal while you're pretty free to click buttons and do whatever you want, really.
The rest of the team is pretty standard HO, with Thwackey/Darkvally/Basculin/Rotom covering most everything in the meta that can threaten you. You could run something like Specs Poli here (probably better tbqh) in order to give you more defensive utility, but I like the click-button-y nature of Basculin and find it really fun.
Aja vs Valentina (Grassvally)
This is literally identical to the offense team Kay posted above, but I really wanted to use Grassvally so I put that in over Thwackey on this team. Grassvally was something I was interested in testing, and while I am sure it could function more effectively on a team that isn't this and is rather built around it, and while I should also probably adjust some of these sets to take into account the fact that the team is now weaker to certain stuff (imo) like Kanga, the meta is changing pretty drastically soon and I don't have the energy to optimize something for like a week. Grassvally imo has some cool utility because it's a (bulkier) Grass-type, especially on the spdef side which lets it serve as a more effective water-resist (kinda). It also has a wide variety of coverage moves that let it break through common grass checks, such as Altaria and Tangela (and kinda Coal? but not really). I was using an SD set with Flamethrower, as while I think a mixed Work-Up set could be more effective, I like being able to OHKO fat Cram at +2 and do like at least minimum 65% to physdef Altaria at +2 with Rock Slide. Flamethrower is always a 2HKO to Tangela without Stealth Rock (with a -def +Spe nature) which I think is really epic, letting you break it without having to click Knock Off against it. However, I still think Grassvally is kinda ass compared to Thwackey which is why I don't favor ranking it, but it's pretty fun to use so who cares.
Trixie Mattel vs Acid Betty (Dark Spam)
Shoutouts to kay for helping develop this team with me. The idea is pretty simple, and it has a similar idea behind it as his Centi offense does in that Liepard and Darkvally have similar checks, with Liepard being able to click Knock Off against common Darkvally checks like Tangela/Alcremie, chipping them and removing their item, helping open up a possible Darkvally sweep/wallbreak later on. The rest of the team is pretty standard (I hate saying that phrase but it really is). Scarf Rotom is a great cleaner, also benefitting from stuff like Tang/Rhydon/Alcremie having their item removed. Uxie/Cram/Tang is a really solid defensive core, checking the most common offensive stuff in the tier atm like Sawk/Thwackey/Kanga/Basculin. This team definitely does struggle a bit versus more "niche" wallbreakers like Specs Rotom/Mane and perhaps a Ground-type could be fit in here like Rhydon in order to check those, but it isn't that important and the utility you get out of Knock/U-Turn on Uxie is based. Plus, through the testing I've done, you're usually able to mitigate that effectively and put yourself in a favorable position in a picking war.
The rest of the teams I used were kay teams (thank you!) as I still don't feel completely comfortable building my own ZU teams. I also want to give shoutouts to gglrg BloodAce Jett Albinson Quagg (sorry for the pings but I do feel it necessary to recognize yall for helping me this ZULT as I was and still and clueless when it comes to ZU) for dealing with me being obnoxious during this tour and spamming yall team ideas, it's much appreciated and I wouldn't have been able to choke in semis without u guys. cheers :][/spoiler]
all these teams i (have now) nicknamed after some of my favorite drag race scenes/quote so if ur homophobic beware (click teams for pokepastes)
Shangela vs Mimi Imfurst (Meteor Beam Coal)
So, while I didn't get to use this team for ZULT, I still think it’s very fun. I built this originally based on a previous team I used in NFE (RMT in sig) that utilized a really fun core of Gabite + Carkol, in which Gabite provided a lot of the defensive utility for Carkol, which functioned as this offensive spinner that could set spikes and also pop unsuspecting Defog users such as Vull/Bat with Meteor Beam for maximum funnies. This core of Coalossal + Uxie functions similarly, where Uxie eats a lot of the hits from basically everything while Coalossal sets Spikes, occasionally spins, and clicks Meteor Beam when it can. A lot of Defog users like Cram/Altaria feel comfortable clicking Roost and eating a Rock Blast, which gives Coal opportunity to click the funny button and do a lot of damage. Spin also has the cool utility of boosting Coal's speed, outspeeding fat Cram, Altaria, etc at +1. Meteor Beam also lets you continue to sit in on fat stuff like Audino and just get a bajillion boosts, forcing your opponent to have to play around Coal while you're pretty free to click buttons and do whatever you want, really.
The rest of the team is pretty standard HO, with Thwackey/Darkvally/Basculin/Rotom covering most everything in the meta that can threaten you. You could run something like Specs Poli here (probably better tbqh) in order to give you more defensive utility, but I like the click-button-y nature of Basculin and find it really fun.
+1 252 SpA Coalossal Meteor Beam vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Cramorant: 422-500 (123 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Coalossal Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 408-480 (115.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Coalossal Meteor Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally: 220-261 (66.4 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Coalossal Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garbodor: 250-295 (68.6 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Coalossal Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish: 342-403 (102.3 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Coalossal Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 169-199 (41.2 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Coalossal Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alcremie: 180-213 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- Meteor Beam into FBlast is a 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Coalossal Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 408-480 (115.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Coalossal Meteor Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally: 220-261 (66.4 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Coalossal Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garbodor: 250-295 (68.6 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Coalossal Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish: 342-403 (102.3 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Coalossal Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 169-199 (41.2 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Coalossal Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alcremie: 180-213 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- Meteor Beam into FBlast is a 2HKO
Aja vs Valentina (Grassvally)
This is literally identical to the offense team Kay posted above, but I really wanted to use Grassvally so I put that in over Thwackey on this team. Grassvally was something I was interested in testing, and while I am sure it could function more effectively on a team that isn't this and is rather built around it, and while I should also probably adjust some of these sets to take into account the fact that the team is now weaker to certain stuff (imo) like Kanga, the meta is changing pretty drastically soon and I don't have the energy to optimize something for like a week. Grassvally imo has some cool utility because it's a (bulkier) Grass-type, especially on the spdef side which lets it serve as a more effective water-resist (kinda). It also has a wide variety of coverage moves that let it break through common grass checks, such as Altaria and Tangela (and kinda Coal? but not really). I was using an SD set with Flamethrower, as while I think a mixed Work-Up set could be more effective, I like being able to OHKO fat Cram at +2 and do like at least minimum 65% to physdef Altaria at +2 with Rock Slide. Flamethrower is always a 2HKO to Tangela without Stealth Rock (with a -def +Spe nature) which I think is really epic, letting you break it without having to click Knock Off against it. However, I still think Grassvally is kinda ass compared to Thwackey which is why I don't favor ranking it, but it's pretty fun to use so who cares.
0 SpA Silvally-Grass Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 168-198 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Silvally-Grass Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 136-160 (46.5 - 54.7%) -- 60.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Grass Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Altaria: 230-272 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Grass Multi-Attack vs. 248 HP / 200 Def Cramorant: 381-448 (111 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Grass Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Coalossal: 168-198 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO <- lol
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Grass Multi-Attack vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Coalossal: 201-237 (47.5 - 56%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Grass Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 357-420 (87 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Silvally-Grass Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 136-160 (46.5 - 54.7%) -- 60.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Grass Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Altaria: 230-272 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Grass Multi-Attack vs. 248 HP / 200 Def Cramorant: 381-448 (111 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Grass Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Coalossal: 168-198 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO <- lol
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Grass Multi-Attack vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Coalossal: 201-237 (47.5 - 56%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Grass Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 357-420 (87 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Trixie Mattel vs Acid Betty (Dark Spam)
Shoutouts to kay for helping develop this team with me. The idea is pretty simple, and it has a similar idea behind it as his Centi offense does in that Liepard and Darkvally have similar checks, with Liepard being able to click Knock Off against common Darkvally checks like Tangela/Alcremie, chipping them and removing their item, helping open up a possible Darkvally sweep/wallbreak later on. The rest of the team is pretty standard (I hate saying that phrase but it really is). Scarf Rotom is a great cleaner, also benefitting from stuff like Tang/Rhydon/Alcremie having their item removed. Uxie/Cram/Tang is a really solid defensive core, checking the most common offensive stuff in the tier atm like Sawk/Thwackey/Kanga/Basculin. This team definitely does struggle a bit versus more "niche" wallbreakers like Specs Rotom/Mane and perhaps a Ground-type could be fit in here like Rhydon in order to check those, but it isn't that important and the utility you get out of Knock/U-Turn on Uxie is based. Plus, through the testing I've done, you're usually able to mitigate that effectively and put yourself in a favorable position in a picking war.
The rest of the teams I used were kay teams (thank you!) as I still don't feel completely comfortable building my own ZU teams. I also want to give shoutouts to gglrg BloodAce Jett Albinson Quagg (sorry for the pings but I do feel it necessary to recognize yall for helping me this ZULT as I was and still and clueless when it comes to ZU) for dealing with me being obnoxious during this tour and spamming yall team ideas, it's much appreciated and I wouldn't have been able to choke in semis without u guys. cheers :][/spoiler]
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Hewwo there 
As we know, the shifts are coming, and we'll be getting
(not pog). I, along with I'm sure many others, thought this thing would be broken like nothing ever was in any tier (except maybe 
in ou coz robo thing go brrr) . So I decided to dig deeper, and do a bit of research on budget Dracovish, here are my results.
Potential sets :
Checks And Counters(defensive):
TLDR
Very strong, but can't spam rend too much. Choiced is prediction reliant, hazards weak. Boots is kinda slow, but no prediction required. Has potential to adapt to most checks, but at what cost?? So isn't as broken as you might think at first glance.Hence, time will tell.
(A lot if this could be totally wrong, coz I'm no pro, but I tried. Also I don't even know if 'theory-monning' is allowed, kindly tell me if that's so, I'll remove the post)
With that, I sign off, have a nice day!
As we know, the shifts are coming, and we'll be getting
(not pog). I, along with I'm sure many others, thought this thing would be broken like nothing ever was in any tier (except maybe in ou coz robo thing go brrr) . So I decided to dig deeper, and do a bit of research on budget Dracovish, here are my results.Potential sets :
A few obvious options would be,choiced
A couple things to note down and remember with choiced sets, is firstly that is weak to Stealth Rock. Add its reliance on Fishious Rend for reliable damage + the best Pokemon is the metagame eating that hit up endlessly with Regenerator + us having very viable water resists like , 
, 
, 
etc etc, and you have a slow-ish wallbreaker that could struggle to spam its damage dealing move even vs a balanced team, which can't even come in endlessly coz it's weak to rocks aka one of the best moves. Idk bout you, but I don't like these traits on a mon with little defensive utility.
Now for the pros
Banded Fishious Rend hits fucjing *hard*. With its secondary ice stab, it can dispose off Dragons like or grasses like . With coverage like Crunch for 
and Psychic Fangs for and , it can be a pain to deal with.
This set is designed to be a potent revenge killer, disposing should-have-been-faster-but-aren't-lol threats like, (Ground), , , non , etc. However, it's still slower than , etc, and also by other scarfers like :On deez nuts: etc. Is also hit by strong and prominent priority users like , etc. So uhhh yeah idk about how good this is
Now for the set i think will be the best,
Mix
Arctovish @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Icicle Crash
- Freeze-Dry
- Super Fang/Stone Edge/Crunch/Substitute/ whatever
This set does not have the prediction problem of choiced, neither does it get worn down by hazards. Fishious Rend doesn't exactly need the to murder, and this set helps you spam it as much as possible, by punishing most switch-ins, without stressing out our brain cells.
Moves are standard, Rend, crash and freeze dry are what you're gonna be clicking mostly. The last slot can be for Substitute to scout and get an extra hit off, Super Fang deals straight 50% to all healthy things not ghosts, maybe so you can bring them in range of Rend. Other filler moves will be discussed shortly.
The spread is obvious, 4 spatk for freeze dry, and max attack and speed. The nature is speed boosting because it helps it tie, who *could* stay in to whip. Go adamant if you're a self confident individual, I'm not lol.
A couple things to note down and remember with choiced sets, is firstly that
is weak to Stealth Rock. Add its reliance on Fishious Rend for reliable damage + the best Pokemon is the metagame eating that hit up endlessly with Regenerator + us having very viable water resists like , , , etc etc, and you have a slow-ish wallbreaker that could struggle to spam its damage dealing move even vs a balanced team, which can't even come in endlessly coz it's weak to rocks aka one of the best moves. Idk bout you, but I don't like these traits on a mon with little defensive utility.Now for the pros
Banded Fishious Rend hits fucjing *hard*. With its secondary ice stab, it can dispose off Dragons like
or grasses like . With coverage like Crunch for and Psychic Fangs for and , it can be a pain to deal with. This set is designed to be a potent revenge killer, disposing should-have-been-faster-but-aren't-lol threats like
, (Ground), , , non , etc. However, it's still slower than , etc, and also by other scarfers like :On deez nuts: etc. Is also hit by strong and prominent priority users like , etc. So uhhh yeah idk about how good this isNow for the set i think will be the best,
MixArctovish @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Icicle Crash
- Freeze-Dry
- Super Fang/Stone Edge/Crunch/Substitute/ whatever
This set does not have the prediction problem of choiced, neither does it get worn down by hazards. Fishious Rend doesn't exactly need the
to murder, and this set helps you spam it as much as possible, by punishing most switch-ins, without stressing out our brain cells. Moves are standard, Rend, crash and freeze dry are what you're gonna be clicking mostly. The last slot can be for Substitute to scout and get an extra hit off, Super Fang deals straight 50% to all healthy things not ghosts, maybe so you can bring them in range of Rend. Other filler moves will be discussed shortly.
The spread is obvious, 4 spatk for freeze dry, and max attack and speed. The nature is speed boosting because it helps it tie
, who *could* stay in to whip. Go adamant if you're a self confident individual, I'm not lol.Checks And Counters(defensive):
In no particular order
CHECK
Can eat up rends for days, has too much bulk to care about crash, only scared of Freeze Dry, but if it's choiced then it can scout easily
CHECK
Takes rend easily, however it needs to run phys def to take crashes easily. 140 defense relaxed is never 4KHOed by crash.
CHECK
Much like, it can take any hit except Freeze Dry, even Psychic Fangs. It can also punish it with twave and helmet chip. *Unlike* , it lacks Regenerator, so it has to be careful to not take Freeze Dry on the switch. A very heavy spdef version can take 2 drys, namely 252 hp and 200 spdef careful, but is totally unviable tbh.
CHECK/COUNTER
With a spread of 252/68+/188, it is never 4HKOed by rend and is 4HKOed by freeze dry. With rest it can almost always handle it,hence the "/counter"
Large CHECK/COUNTER
With 252/220+/36, it is not 2HKOed by crash after rocks, and isn't 2HKOed by Freeze Dry. With synthesis it can almost always handle it, hence the "/counter"
COUNTER
Too bulky to care about freeze dry, everything else bounces off
COUNTER
No, not
poli, but spdef bulk up poli counters it.
CHECK/COUNTER
Can take everything but freeze dry, crunch is nullified by
, spdef wisp/sap counters it, phys def has to worry a bit about Freeze Dry.
COUNTER
LOL
COUNTER
This is proly the hardest possible counter, although Arctovish does learn Stone Edge, idt it'll be able to fit it.
Water CHECK
With 252/176/80+, never gets 3 shot by freeze dry, but can get worn down quick.
These were ranked mons only, maybe some unranked mons can become popular if they can check it too.
Arctovish can also adapt to these, so it'll be fun to see how it turns out, if it's not quick banned lol
CHECKCan eat up rends for days, has too much bulk to care about crash, only scared of Freeze Dry, but if it's choiced then it can scout easily
CHECKTakes rend easily, however it needs to run phys def to take crashes easily. 140 defense relaxed is never 4KHOed by crash.
CHECKMuch like
, it can take any hit except Freeze Dry, even Psychic Fangs. It can also punish it with twave and helmet chip. *Unlike* , it lacks Regenerator, so it has to be careful to not take Freeze Dry on the switch. A very heavy spdef version can take 2 drys, namely 252 hp and 200 spdef careful, but is totally unviable tbh. CHECK/COUNTERWith a spread of 252/68+/188, it is never 4HKOed by rend and is 4HKOed by freeze dry. With rest it can almost always handle it,hence the "/counter"
Large CHECK/COUNTERWith 252/220+/36, it is not 2HKOed by crash after rocks, and isn't 2HKOed by Freeze Dry. With synthesis it can almost always handle it, hence the "/counter"
COUNTERToo bulky to care about freeze dry, everything else bounces off
COUNTERNo, not
poli, but spdef bulk up poli counters it. CHECK/COUNTERCan take everything but freeze dry, crunch is nullified by
, spdef wisp/sap counters it, phys def has to worry a bit about Freeze Dry. COUNTERLOL
COUNTERThis is proly the hardest possible counter, although Arctovish does learn Stone Edge, idt it'll be able to fit it.
Water CHECKWith 252/176/80+, never gets 3 shot by freeze dry, but can get worn down quick.
These were ranked mons only, maybe some unranked mons can become popular if they can check it too.
Arctovish can also adapt to these, so it'll be fun to see how it turns out, if it's not quick banned lol
TLDR
Very strong, but can't spam rend too much. Choiced is prediction reliant, hazards weak. Boots is kinda slow, but no prediction required. Has potential to adapt to most checks, but at what cost?? So isn't as broken as you might think at first glance.Hence, time will tell.
(A lot if this could be totally wrong, coz I'm no pro, but I tried. Also I don't even know if 'theory-monning' is allowed, kindly tell me if that's so, I'll remove the post)
With that, I sign off, have a nice day!
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A diferent option is using Hail last and Slush Rush as the ability to have a better matchup against offense
The ZU Council will be holding a vote before the Multi-Cash Prize No Johns tournament regarding Grassy Terrain teams. These teams are a central issue in the current metagame because of how powerful and versatile they are. The ability to stack multiple setup Pokemon such as Thievul, Galarian Rapidash, Swoobat, lesser ones like Drifblim and Flapple, and also have powerful Grassy Glide users such as Trevenant and Thwackey make the archetype so threatening. Grassy Terrain teams would have been addressed in some form sooner had tier shifts not been near. That being said, Grassy Terrain teams have multiple aspects that can be addressed:
- Vote on Thwackey - Thwackey is a core Pokemon on Grassy Terrain teams due to its ability Grassy Surge and ability to support teammates via breaking, removing items, and pivoting. However, banning Thwackey would not solve the issue because Grookey exists and facilitates all of the sweepers on Grassy Terrain thanks to Grassy Surge.
- Vote on a setup sweeper - Another option is to look at individual sweepers and remove the most problematic one. This is easier said than done since no one sweeper is broken; rather, the sweepers are so threatening because of their diversity and ability to overwhelm teams.
- Vote on Grassy Surge - If Grassy Surge were to be removed, then Grassy Terrain teams would be nerfed almost completely (reduced to manual setters). The main issues with a vote on Grassy Surge is that it removes a healthy element of the metagame (i.e offensive support and breaking power that Thwackey gives teams) and it implies that Grassy Surge is broken in other capacities (e.g Grass-type spam, on Thwackey alone). While a couple council members want to go this route, the majority of council does not.
- Vote on Grassy Seed - Grassy Seed enables the multitude of sweepers on Grassy Terrain teams and makes the playstyle so threatening. Grassy Seed's removal would heavily nerf Grassy Terrain teams and reduce them to variants like Grass-type spam. However, this option does not allow us to take a conservative approach and look at sweepers individually.
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Detective: Jettrem
Subject: Grassy Seed
Effects: Boosts the holder's Defense by one stage in Grassy Terrain.
When majority of players talk about Grassy Terrain being problematic, they are referring to teams that also utilise special setup sweepers such Galarian Rapidash, Swoobat, and Thievul, as well as other more niche options such as Drifblim. These special attackers are able to easily overwhelm most team's special walls when used in conjunction with one another. They have very diverse counterplay due to their differences in typing and abilities and therefore it would be difficult to pinpoint a single one as the main problem. On the contrary, Grassy Seed is the only common factor between all these Pokemon and is what the council ultimately chosen to vote on. Grassy Seed makes it a lot more difficult to priority from the likes of Kangaskhan and opposing Thwackey to revenge kill these Pokemon. Additionally physical Dark-types such as Silvally-Dark are solid answers to the aforementioned special sweepers but must be kept relatively healthy in order to keep these Pokemon in check. There was some disagreement that Grassy Terrain should be tackled instead within the council that I would like to address first.
I believe that the majority of the council made the correct decision by focussing on Grassy Seed rather than Grassy Surge. There is very little difference between banning Thwackey & Grookey, and banning Grassy Surge, as these teams only rely on the ability and care very little about the stats and movepools behind these Pokemon. On the otherhand, a perfectly balanced Pokemon like Thwackey would almost surely become unviable through no fault of its own. Additionally, Grass-type spam would also be hurt significantly despite it not being an issue in the metagame what so ever. Furthermore, Pokemon such as Cottonee are already being used on dedicated Grassy Terrain teams, and while relying on these Pokemon is certainly a nerf when compared to auto-terrain setters, the setup sweepers themselves hardly care how their item is activated. In fact a Pokemon like Cottonee has access to Memento to further help support the incoming switch-in in setting up. That being said banning Grassy Surge would likely tackle the issue but it would also bring about several consequences that I believe are undesirable for the metagame.
A Grassy Seed ban isn't completely perfect either, as our special setup sweepers could be viably run on another similar archetype, Electric Terrain. While Grassy Terrain is notably better because Thwackey is a better Pokemon than Pincurchin, and Grassy Terrain also provides passive recovery for some of the setup sweepers, these factors may not be that significant given the fact the terrain setter is merely a supportive role. Electric Terrain is currently not used as Electric-type spam isn't particularly viable and its other potential uses are currently overshadowed by Grassy Terrain, but this may change with the Grassy Seed ban. If the Grassy Seed were to go through and this ends up to be a problem, I expect that Electric Seed would also be tackled.
One last point is that maybe an item such as Kee Berry could be used on special setup spam instead of Grassy Seed were to be banned. The key difference here is that Pokemon like Galarian Rapidash would not receive an immediate Defense boost making it easier for physical attackers to revenge kill, and harder for these Pokemon to find opportunities to setup. There is a slight chance that these special setup spam teams are still a problem without Grassy Terrain at all, at which point it would be better to target these Pokemon individually in some manner. This last point is mainly theorymonning however, as there has been no real reason to do this except if you want to intentionally weaken your team.
Overall, Grassy Seed still remains the best option of the options that are available as it addresses the problem that many players have with the archetype without unnecessarily causing major consequences to the viability of Pokemon that can also be used as standalone Pokemon. Thievul and Thwackey will likely remain the same in terms of their power, while Pokemon more specifically tied to the archetype are hit but are not outright removed as they too are currently not broken without such support.
TL;DR: The best way terrain on this archetype's parade is by banning Grassy Seed.
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Regardless of what happens with Grassy Seed, I think the shifts might be worth discussing, at least for 3 of them. (Ghostvally was IIRC solid but not the best vally, Kanto Sandslash was extremely niche, and Drizzle-less Politoed is a meme)
Garbodor leaving is a huge blow. It was one of, if not the best spikers in the tier. In addition, it provided a lot of defensive utility. It could blanket check a lot of mons such as Kanga, Sawk, Cinccino among quite a few number of other physical attackers, in addition to reliably handling annoying mons like Alcremie and Clefairy. Qwilfish is an obvious on paper replacement but it loses out on the offensive presence, as even uninvested Gunk Shot from Garb did a decent amount to neutral targets.
The hail mons we got are an interesting duo to say the least. Alolan Sandslash is another Steel-type which was mainly monopolized by Ferroseed before. It does have some pretty damning weaknesses, but it provides some good defensive utility in checking things like Articuno and Frosmoth among quite a number of others, and has supportive utility in Rocks and Rapid Spin. (Similar to Coalossal, though Alolan Sandslash doesn't need boots as badly since it isn't Rocks weak and is immune to T-Spikes) Arctovish I see as being another okay-ish slow breaker. The speed might be a deal-breaker though combined with its not great defensive typing. People were saying this would be broken but at best I see it in like mid B alongside fellow slow Ice-type Aurorus.
Garbodor leaving is a huge blow. It was one of, if not the best spikers in the tier. In addition, it provided a lot of defensive utility. It could blanket check a lot of mons such as Kanga, Sawk, Cinccino among quite a few number of other physical attackers, in addition to reliably handling annoying mons like Alcremie and Clefairy. Qwilfish is an obvious on paper replacement but it loses out on the offensive presence, as even uninvested Gunk Shot from Garb did a decent amount to neutral targets.
The hail mons we got are an interesting duo to say the least. Alolan Sandslash is another Steel-type which was mainly monopolized by Ferroseed before. It does have some pretty damning weaknesses, but it provides some good defensive utility in checking things like Articuno and Frosmoth among quite a number of others, and has supportive utility in Rocks and Rapid Spin. (Similar to Coalossal, though Alolan Sandslash doesn't need boots as badly since it isn't Rocks weak and is immune to T-Spikes) Arctovish I see as being another okay-ish slow breaker. The speed might be a deal-breaker though combined with its not great defensive typing. People were saying this would be broken but at best I see it in like mid B alongside fellow slow Ice-type Aurorus.
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Hello all, results are in: Grassy Seed is banned from SS ZU with a 5:1 majority. Here is the voting sheet with reasoning from each council member. Tagging Kris to implement, thank you.
You can also type "/rfaq zubl" in the ZU room, that'll bring up a list of mons as well as the links to the posts where the bans were first displayed, so you can see council reasonings. Also, the SQSA thread would be a better place for questions like this, but I saw it here and wanted to help.
A few questions to leave you guys with:
- Is Centiskorch too good / centralizing for the meta to adapt to, especially with Garbodor's absence?
- How do you feel about the two new Ice-types?
- Is Grassy Terrain subdued after the Grassy Seed ban or is there need for another ban to nerf the strategy?
1) Centiskorch is definitely too good in this meta imo and if by adapting we mean sheer adapting regardless of viability then yes a lot of things can be done like big pecks unfezant / defiant rslide falinks / white smoke stone edge torkol / rest talk lairon / rslide tank / np power gem alolasian etc. However if stuff like that has to be used to avoid restricted building against centiskorch then it isn't meta adaptation but desperate adaptation.
2) Slash according to me is a very good breaker and has lots of potential in general. It is one of the best hazards setter because it beats every defogger bar ig wisp rotoms. In hail its speed is enough to outspeed scarftom and ohko or 2hko nearly every mon including tangela. So, if the opponent plays right then you are not getting a sweep with this guy but you're definitely going to leave the opposing defensive core in taters which means now the rest of your team will have a smooth ride. Apart from offensive support it also provides defensive support despite its somewhat sad typing , provides great utility support and is a really effective revenge killer because of how hard it is to switch into it. All in all it's a healthy balanced and nerfed centiskorch imo.
Arct on the other hand is in practice very underwhelming and just doesn't do too hot. I think it might have to do with the fact that everyone was super worried so ended up over preparing and right from the time of its drop spd jelli and wrath mostly infested teams. So ig we might need a little time for stuff to settle down and this mon's sets to be explored some more. As of now however I think it's a B/B- mon.
3) The "Threat" of gterrain is definitely subdued though I think 2mon glide cores might come into existence which are not really that problematic but would be interesting to watch. Basically I think the ban was a good and adequate decision.
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Quick thoughts on shifts
Losing Garbodor is huge. It was one of the best Pokémon in the tier and the best glue, being able to soft check almost any physical attacker that wasn't a Ground-type and setup Toxic Spikes while threatening Defoggers.
Silvally-Ghost wasn't amazing due to Tangela and Kangaskhan popularity, however it was still a restricting threat that could often clutch late game, so I'm glad it is gone.
This mon wasn't good, I don't care that it left as it never feat in my teams and I never had to even prepare for it.
These two were unviable, we won't miss them.
This mon is far from being as threatening as expected. It is slow, very vulnerable to hazards, and only Fishious Rend is hard to switch into, as even coverage moves like Freeze Dry, Psychic Fangs, and Crunch barely 2HKO what they target: Tangela can avoid the 2HKO from -SpA Freeze Dry or Band Icicle Crash lol.
This mon is amazing, we've been lacking good Steel-types for a while and we eventually got an hazard setter that hard walls standard Altaria and Articuno. Defensive sets like offensive ones are great, it is most likely going to be one of the bery best Pokémon in the tier.
Longer thoughts on current state of ZU
According to a lot of people, Centiskorch is the elephant in the room. As someone who has been wanting Centiskorch gone from the meta for months and have claimed it was unhealthy for a while, I am obviously sharing this opinion.
Centiskorch doesn't OHKO every Pokemon with the right move, it's not this type of breaker and that's why it is an unbalanced threat. The strength of Centiskorch relies on how hard it is to switch into it without using an handful of Pokemon. Centiskorch deals around 60% with all its moves to most uninvested threats and the weaker, Knock Off, heavily cripples most switchins. Due to its excellent bulk and Heavy-Duty keeping it at 100% most of the game (Leech Life recovery helps in that regard), Centiskorch is able to trade with every Pokemon that isn't carrying Rock coverage, isn't a Choice Band user, a faster threat with a super effective STAB move, and some Defense boosting sweepers.
This gives us this list of checks (only listing Pokemon above B+ rank):
Adamant Silk Scarf Kangaskhan, Sawk, Silvally-Ground, Brave Bird / Hurricane Articuno, Qwilfish, Toxic Rapidash, Altaria, Cinccino, Basculin, Coalossal, Iron Defense Cofagrigus, Cramorant, Bulk Up Gurdurr, Rock Slide Miltank, Rock Slide Piloswine, offensive Poliwrath (the best set in Choice Specs loses most of the time though), and Rotom-Fan.
Centiskorch is able to at least trade versus the rest of the tier, and a lot of these Pokemon can't afford to switch into Centiskorch because they get OHKOed by a move (Silvally-Ground, Poliwrath, and Basculin namely), a lot of them also can't afford to get Knocked Off (Sawk, Gurdurr, Cinccino) because they become unable to perform their role.
So unless you only run checks to Centiskorch which is quite restricting, you're going to need one of Qwilfish, Bulky Rapidash, Altaria, Rock Slide Miltank, Cramorant, and Coalossal. On paper, it doesn't seem that restricting to run one of these 6 sets in every team. However, they share some negative traits. Coalossal and Tangela are almost unviable if they get Knocked Off as they are taking too much damage from hazards + Centiskorch moves. Cramorant is outright of range of Power Whip after Stealth Rock or Knock Off damage, it also can't afford to Roost versus Centiskorch as Power Whip OHKOes a landed Cramorant. If you consider these Pokemon don't deal very well versus top tiers breakers like Kangaskhan, Sawk, and Silvally formes in the first place, it becomes quite hard to justifiy running them. Defensive Rock Slide Miltank is one of the most passive Pokemon in the tier, if it lacks Seismic Toss then it invites every Toxic immunity in and if it lacks Toxic, it invites almost every Pokemon in. Offensive Miltank doesn't need Rock Slide to defeat Centiskorch but it is a very niche attacker due to better Normal breakers like Cinccino, Kangaskhan, and Silvally existing.
The only two counters that are worth using are Altaria and Qwilfish, and due to Centiskorch's ability to trade with almost the whole tier, it is a necessity right now to run one of these two, unless you manage to build a team consisting only of Centiskorch checks.
Silvally-Ground is the other elephant in the room. Swords Dance / Multi Attack / U-turn / Rock Slide has almost no counter (Tangela, Pyukumuku, Thwackey, bulky Rotom, Gourgeist-Small, Gourgeist-Super, Vibrava) and is very fast. It can also afford to run variants with Ice Beam over Uturn or SD that can even 2HKO/OHKO most of those lol. Seriously, this mon has been a pain to deal with for a while and the most restricting threat in the tier right after Centiskorch (yeah because we'd still run Thwackey, Gourgeist-Small, WoW Rotom and Tangela without GroundVally, just less often). I would like to extand this point by saying currently dealing with most Silvally formes is extremely painful (Poison, Electric, Dark, Normal, and Flying mainly), because they previously were easily put in range of revenge killers thanks to Garbodor's Rocky Helmet and Aftermath, but I think that they could be less hard to handle if we didn't have two slots reserved to handle Silvally-Ground and Centiskorch, mainly because it would be easier to justify running Klinklang, Gurdurr, and Cofagrigus.
All in all, these two Pokemon are unhealthy, restrain teambuilding and make it impossible to account for several threats in the builder, mainly Silvally formes. They should be banned as soon as possible, and obviously before ZUPL which is only in a month.
Thoughts on Grassy Seed
Like I wrote in my banning reasoning, I don't think Grassy Seed was the priority to handle. A lot of counterplay was available but just hard to fit into teams due to Centiskorch and SIlvally-Ground. I still ended up voting ban on it because I thought it would be better to have less threats to account in the builder for the moment, but I believe this should be retested soon after Centiskorch and Silvally-Ground get the boot, should they.
tldr: snowslash good, arctovish meh, ban centiskorch and groundvally, keep an eye on other silvally formes afterwards and revisit grassy seed quickban.
Losing Garbodor is huge. It was one of the best Pokémon in the tier and the best glue, being able to soft check almost any physical attacker that wasn't a Ground-type and setup Toxic Spikes while threatening Defoggers.
Silvally-Ghost wasn't amazing due to Tangela and Kangaskhan popularity, however it was still a restricting threat that could often clutch late game, so I'm glad it is gone.
This mon wasn't good, I don't care that it left as it never feat in my teams and I never had to even prepare for it.
These two were unviable, we won't miss them.
This mon is far from being as threatening as expected. It is slow, very vulnerable to hazards, and only Fishious Rend is hard to switch into, as even coverage moves like Freeze Dry, Psychic Fangs, and Crunch barely 2HKO what they target: Tangela can avoid the 2HKO from -SpA Freeze Dry or Band Icicle Crash lol.
This mon is amazing, we've been lacking good Steel-types for a while and we eventually got an hazard setter that hard walls standard Altaria and Articuno. Defensive sets like offensive ones are great, it is most likely going to be one of the bery best Pokémon in the tier.
Longer thoughts on current state of ZU
According to a lot of people, Centiskorch is the elephant in the room. As someone who has been wanting Centiskorch gone from the meta for months and have claimed it was unhealthy for a while, I am obviously sharing this opinion.
Centiskorch doesn't OHKO every Pokemon with the right move, it's not this type of breaker and that's why it is an unbalanced threat. The strength of Centiskorch relies on how hard it is to switch into it without using an handful of Pokemon. Centiskorch deals around 60% with all its moves to most uninvested threats and the weaker, Knock Off, heavily cripples most switchins. Due to its excellent bulk and Heavy-Duty keeping it at 100% most of the game (Leech Life recovery helps in that regard), Centiskorch is able to trade with every Pokemon that isn't carrying Rock coverage, isn't a Choice Band user, a faster threat with a super effective STAB move, and some Defense boosting sweepers.
This gives us this list of checks (only listing Pokemon above B+ rank):
Adamant Silk Scarf Kangaskhan, Sawk, Silvally-Ground, Brave Bird / Hurricane Articuno, Qwilfish, Toxic Rapidash, Altaria, Cinccino, Basculin, Coalossal, Iron Defense Cofagrigus, Cramorant, Bulk Up Gurdurr, Rock Slide Miltank, Rock Slide Piloswine, offensive Poliwrath (the best set in Choice Specs loses most of the time though), and Rotom-Fan.
Centiskorch is able to at least trade versus the rest of the tier, and a lot of these Pokemon can't afford to switch into Centiskorch because they get OHKOed by a move (Silvally-Ground, Poliwrath, and Basculin namely), a lot of them also can't afford to get Knocked Off (Sawk, Gurdurr, Cinccino) because they become unable to perform their role.
So unless you only run checks to Centiskorch which is quite restricting, you're going to need one of Qwilfish, Bulky Rapidash, Altaria, Rock Slide Miltank, Cramorant, and Coalossal. On paper, it doesn't seem that restricting to run one of these 6 sets in every team. However, they share some negative traits. Coalossal and Tangela are almost unviable if they get Knocked Off as they are taking too much damage from hazards + Centiskorch moves. Cramorant is outright of range of Power Whip after Stealth Rock or Knock Off damage, it also can't afford to Roost versus Centiskorch as Power Whip OHKOes a landed Cramorant. If you consider these Pokemon don't deal very well versus top tiers breakers like Kangaskhan, Sawk, and Silvally formes in the first place, it becomes quite hard to justifiy running them. Defensive Rock Slide Miltank is one of the most passive Pokemon in the tier, if it lacks Seismic Toss then it invites every Toxic immunity in and if it lacks Toxic, it invites almost every Pokemon in. Offensive Miltank doesn't need Rock Slide to defeat Centiskorch but it is a very niche attacker due to better Normal breakers like Cinccino, Kangaskhan, and Silvally existing.
The only two counters that are worth using are Altaria and Qwilfish, and due to Centiskorch's ability to trade with almost the whole tier, it is a necessity right now to run one of these two, unless you manage to build a team consisting only of Centiskorch checks.
Silvally-Ground is the other elephant in the room. Swords Dance / Multi Attack / U-turn / Rock Slide has almost no counter (Tangela, Pyukumuku, Thwackey, bulky Rotom, Gourgeist-Small, Gourgeist-Super, Vibrava) and is very fast. It can also afford to run variants with Ice Beam over Uturn or SD that can even 2HKO/OHKO most of those lol. Seriously, this mon has been a pain to deal with for a while and the most restricting threat in the tier right after Centiskorch (yeah because we'd still run Thwackey, Gourgeist-Small, WoW Rotom and Tangela without GroundVally, just less often). I would like to extand this point by saying currently dealing with most Silvally formes is extremely painful (Poison, Electric, Dark, Normal, and Flying mainly), because they previously were easily put in range of revenge killers thanks to Garbodor's Rocky Helmet and Aftermath, but I think that they could be less hard to handle if we didn't have two slots reserved to handle Silvally-Ground and Centiskorch, mainly because it would be easier to justify running Klinklang, Gurdurr, and Cofagrigus.
All in all, these two Pokemon are unhealthy, restrain teambuilding and make it impossible to account for several threats in the builder, mainly Silvally formes. They should be banned as soon as possible, and obviously before ZUPL which is only in a month.
Thoughts on Grassy Seed
Like I wrote in my banning reasoning, I don't think Grassy Seed was the priority to handle. A lot of counterplay was available but just hard to fit into teams due to Centiskorch and SIlvally-Ground. I still ended up voting ban on it because I thought it would be better to have less threats to account in the builder for the moment, but I believe this should be retested soon after Centiskorch and Silvally-Ground get the boot, should they.
tldr: snowslash good, arctovish meh, ban centiskorch and groundvally, keep an eye on other silvally formes afterwards and revisit grassy seed quickban.
Skorch has really been the perfect storm of a Pokemon these past 2 months. Garb left right at such a key point because it was one of the only answers in the tier that could keep up with the level of optimization we've seen from these skorch teams that are now able to out pressure once thought of answers like Coalossal, Cramorant, Altaria, and Rapidash, leaving us in a state where the only real solid counter play is either running Qwilfish, running Altaria with 2 defoggers, or running one of the softer answers like Coal/Rap/Cram and hoping your opponent miss plays. I've been saying for awhile that I thought skorch teams were the easiest way to net wins in ZU and right as its been catching on with the general playerbase we have a tier shift that directly buffs it in such a huge way.
But to explain a bit more why this is the case compared to other strong breakers, lets really breakdown why its such a different beast than say something like a specs Jynx or a CB sawk. The simple answer is lack of middle ground switch ins which then makes you more heavily rely on very specific lines of play to the point where Skorch teams are able to build their entire teams around these select few interaction points and make the most out of the plays you're forced to make which is a totally different situation from every other breaker we have in the tier and its all thanks to Fire Lash + coverage.
I think it heavily restricts us both in the builder and in the actual game way too much to be considered healthy and the level of consistency you get when you play a good Skorch team is way too high to the point where in every single non Qwilfish match up, I feel absolutely favored in every one of them because it always has tools to break past anything else and that's not a good thing for a mon as restricting as Centiskorch. I'm entirely in support of a suspect test on this mon.
The other elephant in the room. Almost every single Silvally from is seeing play right now which makes the sheer number of them being viable a really awkward point in the tier right now and Vally-ground is at the top of the food chain. But we've seen a rise and fall of this mon before as the meta comes in and out around it, so while I do entirely agree Silvally-ground is an issue, I'd like to see how it is when the tier has more room to breathe after a potential Skorch suspect because its been shown we do have the tools to keep Vally-ground in check, but we're hard pressed to make use of those tools when so much of our team builder is currently aimed at containing Centiskorch.
So while I'm personally in support of a potential Vally-ground suspect, I'd prefer it to happen after a Skorch suspect.
henlo! low ladder zu nerd here. i’m gonna talk about the meta :>
the loss of garbodor is a pretty sad and unfortunate one. with its poison typing and access to great utility and coverage, it was one of the best physical walls in the entire tier. it, alongside other defensive cornerstones like tangela, was part of what glued the tier together. its absence admittedly leaves some room for new rises. notably speaking, (poison) now establishes itself as a very unique defogger that can check physical breakers while also being immune to trick. however, due to garbodor being the premier counter to centiskorch and other strong threats, its move up to nu is a pretty bad loss for zu. i’m glad that nu recognized its potential, at least.
i don’t particularly care much about the absence of these pokémon, with all due respect. while all of these mons had their fans, ultimately they didn’t have a significant enough impact on the meta for their loss to be truly felt. froslass was never a consistent pokémon, as its suicide lead set was difficult to fit on teams & its offensive sets were weak to rocks. silvally-ghost was quite potent as a breaker or sweeper, but it always faced tough competition from the ground form. even though sandslash is one of my favorite pokémon, i never cared for it much in zu, as it was unviable.
i initially anticipated arctovish to wreck the tier with fishous rend, a move that looks impossible to switch into. it seems devastating on paper ~ solid bulk and a speed-boosting ability in hail makes its fishous rend seeemingly consistent and reliable. however, even a jolly nature in hail makes arctovish slower than some scarf users, as its base 55 speed is atrocious. even with a jolly nature, its 90 base attack simply isn’t enough without a choice band or life orb, which makes it suspect to both stealth rock and either linearity or constant chip. while it has a lot of coverage, it often can’t take much advantage of it. freeze dry and icicle crash barely even do as much damage to water resistances as it should, crunch is offset by colbur berries ran by uxie and jellicent, and stone edge is only really meant for articuno. obviously, it’s not like this pokémon sucks. having fishous rend and slush rush in the first place are blessings for sure. it seems like arctovish isn’t nearly as good as advertised, though. it can work well on hail teams, and it can work on some balance teams that need a breaker against slow walls, but it’s going to be difficult to fit in.
on the contrast, alolan sandslash (or aloslash as i call it) has been just as good as we anticipated. as it can be presumed, it’s quite the threat when in hail, as a swords dance boosted triple axel/knock off/iron head are great in tandem with its boosted speed. although that’s where it potentially shines the brightest, i think aloslash has so much potential outside of hail. its swords dance set makes it a really potent breaker, especially since it can absorb physical hits from many different opponents. it has lots of versatility ~ its dual stab is fantastic, ice shard is great for revenge killing, knock off has its utility, and other attacks like eq and stone edge have its coverage. one can also take full advantage of these merits with a choice banded aloslash, to maximize its coverage and immediate power. hell, i might even try to run an assault vest set on it, with leech life recovery for the laughs. lastly, i’m super curious about how good this pokémon’s defensive potential is. although it is 4x weak to fighting and fire, it has some fantastic resistances and immunities that make it a great physical wall. with access to rocks, spikes, spin, knock, and its potent stab triple axel, it can potentially be the ultimate utility mon that can even scare out frailer opponents. i see aloslash as one of, if not the most exciting and fun pokémon in the metagame right now. it has so many advantages that make it unique, interesting, and powerful, while still having clear flaws that prevent it from being completely broken.
i stood by the notion that centiskorch was a healthy part of the zu metagame for a while. although it was hard to switch into, it had its checks in garbodor & others, and it was relatively easy to revenge kill. with garbodor being lost now, it’s become harder and harder to justify the legality of centiskorch in zu, as a result of its overly restricting potency as a breaker. it’s still not to difficult to revenge kill, but that’s easier said than done. it’s become established that all centiskorch needs is a little defensive support from a wall in order to escape easy revenge killing scenarios. this is great for centiskorch, because it already has amazing longevity due to stab leech life and heavy-duty boots. it even has its share of defensive merits, making it an offensive threat that can switch into fire type attacks and resisted special attacks. there are ways to play around centiskorch offensively, as its speed tier is very easy to creep. however, there are relatively few ways to prepare for centiskorch on the defensive side. even with altaria and qwilfish, centiskorch teams are easily able to wear down these foes to help centiskorch cause havoc. additionally, checks like altaria don’t want to switch into knock, and check like qwil don’t want to switch into power whip. although i was hesitant at first, because i love using centiskorch, i’ve accepted the fact that zu’s meta will be healthier without the presence of centiskorch.
and finally...
i’m so fucking glad grassy seed is banned lol
the loss of garbodor is a pretty sad and unfortunate one. with its poison typing and access to great utility and coverage, it was one of the best physical walls in the entire tier. it, alongside other defensive cornerstones like tangela, was part of what glued the tier together. its absence admittedly leaves some room for new rises. notably speaking,
(poison) now establishes itself as a very unique defogger that can check physical breakers while also being immune to trick. however, due to garbodor being the premier counter to centiskorch and other strong threats, its move up to nu is a pretty bad loss for zu. i’m glad that nu recognized its potential, at least. i don’t particularly care much about the absence of these pokémon, with all due respect. while all of these mons had their fans, ultimately they didn’t have a significant enough impact on the meta for their loss to be truly felt. froslass was never a consistent pokémon, as its suicide lead set was difficult to fit on teams & its offensive sets were weak to rocks. silvally-ghost was quite potent as a breaker or sweeper, but it always faced tough competition from the ground form. even though sandslash is one of my favorite pokémon, i never cared for it much in zu, as it was unviable.
i initially anticipated arctovish to wreck the tier with fishous rend, a move that looks impossible to switch into. it seems devastating on paper ~ solid bulk and a speed-boosting ability in hail makes its fishous rend seeemingly consistent and reliable. however, even a jolly nature in hail makes arctovish slower than some scarf users, as its base 55 speed is atrocious. even with a jolly nature, its 90 base attack simply isn’t enough without a choice band or life orb, which makes it suspect to both stealth rock and either linearity or constant chip. while it has a lot of coverage, it often can’t take much advantage of it. freeze dry and icicle crash barely even do as much damage to water resistances as it should, crunch is offset by colbur berries ran by uxie and jellicent, and stone edge is only really meant for articuno. obviously, it’s not like this pokémon sucks. having fishous rend and slush rush in the first place are blessings for sure. it seems like arctovish isn’t nearly as good as advertised, though. it can work well on hail teams, and it can work on some balance teams that need a breaker against slow walls, but it’s going to be difficult to fit in.
on the contrast, alolan sandslash (or aloslash as i call it) has been just as good as we anticipated. as it can be presumed, it’s quite the threat when in hail, as a swords dance boosted triple axel/knock off/iron head are great in tandem with its boosted speed. although that’s where it potentially shines the brightest, i think aloslash has so much potential outside of hail. its swords dance set makes it a really potent breaker, especially since it can absorb physical hits from many different opponents. it has lots of versatility ~ its dual stab is fantastic, ice shard is great for revenge killing, knock off has its utility, and other attacks like eq and stone edge have its coverage. one can also take full advantage of these merits with a choice banded aloslash, to maximize its coverage and immediate power. hell, i might even try to run an assault vest set on it, with leech life recovery for the laughs. lastly, i’m super curious about how good this pokémon’s defensive potential is. although it is 4x weak to fighting and fire, it has some fantastic resistances and immunities that make it a great physical wall. with access to rocks, spikes, spin, knock, and its potent stab triple axel, it can potentially be the ultimate utility mon that can even scare out frailer opponents. i see aloslash as one of, if not the most exciting and fun pokémon in the metagame right now. it has so many advantages that make it unique, interesting, and powerful, while still having clear flaws that prevent it from being completely broken.
i stood by the notion that centiskorch was a healthy part of the zu metagame for a while. although it was hard to switch into, it had its checks in garbodor & others, and it was relatively easy to revenge kill. with garbodor being lost now, it’s become harder and harder to justify the legality of centiskorch in zu, as a result of its overly restricting potency as a breaker. it’s still not to difficult to revenge kill, but that’s easier said than done. it’s become established that all centiskorch needs is a little defensive support from a wall in order to escape easy revenge killing scenarios. this is great for centiskorch, because it already has amazing longevity due to stab leech life and heavy-duty boots. it even has its share of defensive merits, making it an offensive threat that can switch into fire type attacks and resisted special attacks. there are ways to play around centiskorch offensively, as its speed tier is very easy to creep. however, there are relatively few ways to prepare for centiskorch on the defensive side. even with altaria and qwilfish, centiskorch teams are easily able to wear down these foes to help centiskorch cause havoc. additionally, checks like altaria don’t want to switch into knock, and check like qwil don’t want to switch into power whip. although i was hesitant at first, because i love using centiskorch, i’ve accepted the fact that zu’s meta will be healthier without the presence of centiskorch.
and finally...
i’m so fucking glad grassy seed is banned lol
Quick thoughts on drops, sorry if this post has bad grammar I am really tired
I've seen a lot of dismissal and hate on this mon, with a fair amount of people from what I've seen considering this to be pretty mediocre. And, sure. Its speed tier is mediocre, it's vulnerable to common Fighting/Grass/Electric attacks, and it fails to net clean 2HKOs on a fair amount of things. But, I don't think this makes Vish any less of a threatening wallbreaker or restraining force on the builder. It reminds me a lot of a slower Exploud, with Fishious Rend being pretty spammable similar to Boomburst and Icicle Crash/Freeze-Dry hits many of the Pokemon that resist Fishous Rend super-effectively.
Unfortunately the meta is more offensive atm which makes Vish harder to use, but this thing eats fat teams for breakfast, and there are very few "hard counters" to it with the only ones that come to mind being Jellicent and Ferroseed (kinda). Otherwise, you have to pray you go into a Grass-type on a Rend instead of a Crash, or you're forced to sack something and then go into literally the only Scarfer that beats Vish consistently under hail, Manectric. I also just want to point out that "Tangela isn't even 2HKO'd by Banded Crash" is misleading, especially considering how common hazards are in the meta. You only need 1 layer of Spikes or Stealth Rocks to turn that into a 2HKO.
252+ Atk Choice Band Arctovish Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 156-186 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The most common sets I see Vish using are Mixed (Fishous Rend / Icicle Crash / Freeze-Dry / Hail or other coverage), Banded (Fishous Rend / Icicle Crash / and two of Stone Edge / Crunch / Psychic Fangs), and maybe a Trapper/Substitute set with the moves from the Mixed set with Whirlpool or Substitute over Hail. I could potentially see a set with Icy Wind being used, as it makes Fishous Rend easier to use, or, speculatively, a Meteor Beam set/Specs set as a lure? Idk
I've used this the least out of the two hail mons, but I really do think Alolaslash is going to be very solid in this meta. Slash is able to be Specially-Defensive with dual hazards and/or spin, Banded, or an SD booster with or without hail. Its diversity in movepool, item and set, really bring some much-needed variety to the ZU metagame and I can see this being a potential A-rank mon soon. I'll be interested to see the possible innovation with this mon as well, as it does seem pretty cut and dry what's good and isn't good on it so happy building :)
(poison)
These are all things I think have gotten better with the drops (or were already good and are now even better). I'll make a preliminary VR post soon discussing all of my thoughts so look out for that. If you are in No Johns, gl!
I've seen a lot of dismissal and hate on this mon, with a fair amount of people from what I've seen considering this to be pretty mediocre. And, sure. Its speed tier is mediocre, it's vulnerable to common Fighting/Grass/Electric attacks, and it fails to net clean 2HKOs on a fair amount of things. But, I don't think this makes Vish any less of a threatening wallbreaker or restraining force on the builder. It reminds me a lot of a slower Exploud, with Fishious Rend being pretty spammable similar to Boomburst and Icicle Crash/Freeze-Dry hits many of the Pokemon that resist Fishous Rend super-effectively.
Unfortunately the meta is more offensive atm which makes Vish harder to use, but this thing eats fat teams for breakfast, and there are very few "hard counters" to it with the only ones that come to mind being Jellicent and Ferroseed (kinda). Otherwise, you have to pray you go into a Grass-type on a Rend instead of a Crash, or you're forced to sack something and then go into literally the only Scarfer that beats Vish consistently under hail, Manectric. I also just want to point out that "Tangela isn't even 2HKO'd by Banded Crash" is misleading, especially considering how common hazards are in the meta. You only need 1 layer of Spikes or Stealth Rocks to turn that into a 2HKO.
252+ Atk Choice Band Arctovish Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 156-186 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The most common sets I see Vish using are Mixed (Fishous Rend / Icicle Crash / Freeze-Dry / Hail or other coverage), Banded (Fishous Rend / Icicle Crash / and two of Stone Edge / Crunch / Psychic Fangs), and maybe a Trapper/Substitute set with the moves from the Mixed set with Whirlpool or Substitute over Hail. I could potentially see a set with Icy Wind being used, as it makes Fishous Rend easier to use, or, speculatively, a Meteor Beam set/Specs set as a lure? Idk
I've used this the least out of the two hail mons, but I really do think Alolaslash is going to be very solid in this meta. Slash is able to be Specially-Defensive with dual hazards and/or spin, Banded, or an SD booster with or without hail. Its diversity in movepool, item and set, really bring some much-needed variety to the ZU metagame and I can see this being a potential A-rank mon soon. I'll be interested to see the possible innovation with this mon as well, as it does seem pretty cut and dry what's good and isn't good on it so happy building :)
These are all things I think have gotten better with the drops (or were already good and are now even better). I'll make a preliminary VR post soon discussing all of my thoughts so look out for that. If you are in No Johns, gl!
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