Metagame NP: ZU Stage 7 - Rotom-F banned @27

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

aka Ho3nConfirm3d
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Silvally-Ground is on top of the current ZU metagame for its consistent offensive pressure. It’s been a dominate force for the while, largely due to a lack of competition for good, offensive Ground-types. Some community members voiced their complaints about this threat for months now, however, there were bigger fish to fry back then. Now, the spotlight is on Silvally-Ground, and here's the question: is it too much for the current metagame?

Offensive variability and limited defensive counterplay are the biggest concerns. For starters, Multi-Attack + Rock Slide is great coverage in and of itself, as Silvally-Ground revenge kills and forces out the likes of Alolan Sandslsh, Articuno, Skuntank, and Silvally-Poison. The extra tools of Swords Dance, U-turn, and Ice Beam all make it much harder to deal with and unpredictable, given that defensive Pokemon like Jellicent, Uxie, and Tangela all suffer to the corresponding move options. Perhaps the hardest to cover from these coverage options, though, is U-turn. Great for chipping down most Grass-types and Alolan Persian, U-turn also creates momentum as special breakers can then easily get in against physical walls and start breaking. It isn't easy to stop this turn of events either, especially given that Silvally-Ground resists Stealth Rock and KOes Rocky Helmet and Aftermath users like Qwilfish and Skuntank. Silvally-Ground also pressures entry hazard setters and removers alike, so pivoting around will likely be more rewarding for Silvally-Ground compared to its checks. It isn't easy to prepare for the very strong Multi-Attack, the fear of sweeping with Swords Dance or specific coverage like Ice Beam, and the potential of pivoting from U-turn; this is just a single threat after all.

The limitations of Silvally-Ground are its situational defensive answers and slew of revenge killers. Grass-types like Tangela, Eldegoss, Shiinotic, and Gourgeist-XL come to mind as Multi-Attack + Rock Slide switch-ins, deterring back with STAB attacks and status. Even if Ice Beam and U-turn could be problematic, they usually handle it one-on-one and prevent it from sweeping if they switch into Swords Dance while healthy. Physical walls like Wishiwashi and Uxie can tank hits too and snag momentum back with their slower U-turn. Rotom and Rotom-S aren't the bulkiest, but if they switch into Multi-Attack and land a Will-O-Wisp, then Silvally-Ground is much less of an issue. Still, offensive counterplay is much more consistent and viable than attempting to defensively check every Silvally-Ground variant. Gourgeist-S is a phenomenal check to it thanks to it being a faster Grass-type and offering punishing coverage. Basculin and Cinccino are additional wallbreakers that naturally outpace Silvally-Ground and revenge kill it too. Priority from Thwackey, Kangaskhan, and Gurdurr on top of Choice Scarf users like Sawk and Poliwrath also work to stop sweeps. Even with shaky defensive answers, there are options to play around it and punish back with revenge killers.


  • ***THIS IS NEW TO GEN 8 SUSPECTS*** Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 77 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 77 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 81. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 77 GXE will suffice.
GXEminimum games
7750
77.249
77.448
77.647
77.846
7845
78.244
78.443
78.642
78.841
7940
79.239
79.438
79.637
79.836
8035
80.234
80.433
80.632
80.831
8130

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Tuthur

aka nulthur
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Even if I already posted some days ago on Silvally-Ground here, I wanted to make another post on this thread.

Following my previous post, several people told me that they don't find Silvally-Ground broken, because carrying soft checks like Rotom, Scarf Sawk, Uxie, and Wishiwashi works for them. I agree that it is possible to build viable teams wihout Tangela, Gourgeist-Small, Shiinotic, or Eldegoss, notably some sample teams like this one and this one. These teams don't get swept by Silvally-Ground because they are offensive teams, with multiple forms of revenge killing (Kangaskhan and Scarf Sawk, and Kangaskhan, Piloswine, and Scarf Rotom, respectively) and a Ground immunity that doesn't get murdered by Rock Slide (Uxie and Rotom, respectively). While I think it's quite restraining for offensive teams to have to offensively pressure in every situation, it is certainly doable with a certain variety because there are several soft checks that have been listed in the former thread.

However, it is ridiculous to assume bulkier teams can keep such an offensive pressure to a 95/95/95 bulky Pokemon with insane wallbreaking capacities. I haven't seen any balance team without one of the 4 Grasses. Attempt at using softer checks like Sableye, PhysDef Throh, or Thwackey just don't work. Take this game from ZU No John, Xiri has one Ground-immunity, one Ground-resist, and one super effective priority move, however Silvally-Ground just breaks through it easily because it got one free turn to Swords Dance. The team Xiri used had been spammed by tlenit in multiple tournaments and is a rework from a team used by 5gen in UMPL, this is not a team built by someone random who doesn't know ZU at all. I know a lot of people think Tangela would still be a top tier without Silvally-Ground, and while I agree, it wouldn't be as necessary as it is now. Likewise, Gourgeist-Small would still be good but not as good as it is now. Eldegoss and Shiinotic are already pretty bad Pokemon, the former is unable to make any progress versus defensive cores, while the later has attrocious stats, so you wouldn't see them as often as you do now.

In my opinion, a lot of people got used to overpreparing for Silvally-Ground with multiple GroundVally checks offense and fat Grass balance. Top tiers are always going to restrict teambuilding, but Silvally-Ground is just too restraining as forcing a defensive Grass-type in every balance team is obviously going to have multiple drawbacks and recurring weaknesses to attackers like Rapidash, Skuntank, Frosmoth, Sub Arctovish,… Especially when you take into account that Silvally-Ground isn't always going to be SD/MA/RS/U-turn but can also have Ice Beam to nuke these Grass-types once they got weakened, meaning this move has to be scouted.

tldr: free teambuilding, ban Ground-Vally
 

tlenit

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However, it is ridiculous to assume bulkier teams can keep such an offensive pressure to a 95/95/95 bulky Pokemon with insane wallbreaking capacities. I haven't seen any balance team without one of the 4 Grasses. Attempt at using softer checks like Sableye, PhysDef Throh, or Thwackey just don't work. Take this game from ZU No John, Xiri has one Ground-immunity, one Ground-resist, and one super effective priority move, however Silvally-Ground just breaks through it easily because it got one free turn to Swords Dance. The team Xiri used had been spammed by tlenit in multiple tournaments and is a rework from a team used by 5gen in UMPL, this is not a team built by someone random who doesn't know ZU at all.
I hate to break it, but Orbeetle > Uxie is a MU fish vs. DaniYSB - thats it. Saying this teams spammed is exaggeration since it was only used in ssnl (altho like 4 times, bcs no interest of building). One of the Uxies roles in that team is to be immune to multi attack and help the match up. I wont go into the game itself too deeply, but you had opponent who joined under pressure (yup, forced him to join) to play few games of meta he had no idea. While you knew exactly (yep, we tested this and therefore you had 100% knowledge of every possible set) what you got front of you + the team is made before the shifts meaning its old meta team instead of up to date one like you had. This deep-ish analyze is irrelevant for people who are taking notes. And no, I'm not defending Xiri, if somebody even thinks about it, he could have played this 100% better. Simply, I dont want people to get shifted to wrong direction.

What so ever, I agree banning on ground-vally and should have not prolly do this post to defend silvally in that sense.

Cheers, enjoy ur suspect test!
 
Hello wonderful ZU people. How is it going. I was planning on doing a post on Centi back then but I didn't feel the need to as other people already reflected my thoughts on it. I'm glad to see how active were the previous talk on stage 6 regarding Silvally-Ground as well and I'd like to see more of you in this one. Now into the thing

At first I was very convinced that banning both Centi and Gvally would stabilise meta for a nice zupl that is coming but tbh after playing, testing and watching other people games I'm very pleased with the current state that we have. I understand how centralizing Gvally may look but from my perspective, counterplay both offensively and defensively have proved to be natural rather than restricting. And how Tuthur has said previously for example, I think that most playstyle have reliable answers to take on Silvally-Ground, which would actually need a lot of teamwork to burst through its checks like Tangela, Gourgeist, Wishiwashi, Shiinotic or even bulky Rotom and it won't win brainlessly. Most of this pokemon will mantain its viability (except for maybe shiinotic) if Gvally ends up being banned. Silvally-Ground also struggles with offensive teams as its vulnerable to Webs, has a troublesome MU against and Sun and even loses against E-seed sweepers, priority from Thwackey, or just outspeed by fast hitters like Cinccino or Smallgeist as Flame Charge its uncommon. Also, its adequacy of running Ice Beam over one of its standard moves gives it a little of 4mss as without SD it can't break to naturally bulky pokemon like Uxie, Miltank or Cofagrigus. And lacking U-turn would let it obviously take out its pivot role making it less splashable. I don't see any kind of team that really struggles with the presence of Silvally-Ground more than with a good player taking advantage of what Silvally-Ground can offer for its team in certain mu.

Reminder that I'm not saying that Silvally-Ground is a bad pokemon not by any means, but I'm listing a bunch of simple reasons of why I don't think it deserves a ban as multiple pro-ban post have already being made so I'm just bending over this side. So if I ended up doing reqs I'll prob go for dnb.

tl;dr I don't find Gvally broken, counterplay feels natural to most playstyles.
 

Tuthur

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its checks like Tangela, Gourgeist, Wishiwashi, Shiinotic or even bulky Rotom and it won't win brainlessly. Most of this pokemon will mantain its viability (except for maybe shiinotic) if Gvally ends up being banned.
A Pokemon doesn't need to win "brainlessly" or without team support to be banworthy (see Centiskorch and Sneasel). The problem is that these Pokemon all fit in the same category of Grass-types with the same weakness to Skuntank, Ice-, Fire-, Flying- and Steel-type. I already explained that Rotom and physically defensive Wishiwashi are unreliable checks. Bulky Rotom loses over 40 % of the time when switching into a +2 Silvally-Ground as +2 Rock Slide 2HKOes and the flinch + Will-O-Wisp chance is high. Would you make a physical Grass-type your only Scald switch-in? Making Rotom your GroundVally switch-in is even more risky. Physically Defensive Wishiwashi takes over 60 % from +2 Multi-Attack and has no reliable recovery, meaning you have to play very carefully with it. Those are soft-checks, and you need several of them in a single team to cover Silvally-Ground. If you only have one of them, you're going to struggle a lot.
The viability of Tangela, Gourgeist, Shiinotic, and Eldegoss heavily depends on Silvally-Ground's presence in the tier. Tangela isn't a top 5 Pokemon without Silvally-Ground, it has a lot of flaws due to its passivity, reliance on Eviolite, status weakness, and attrocious special bulk, that people seems to overlook. Gourgeist-Super shares most of Tangela's problems. Gourgeist-Small suffers from Poltergeist being a mediocre STAB move in a metagame where Knock Off is so common and not being so strong, it wouldn't be in A ranks at all without Silvally-Ground. Eldegoss and Shiinotic are shitmons that are super passive, they wouldn't be even ranked if Silvally-Ground wasn't in the tier.
I'd like to emphasize that there are other physical wall than Tangela, and it's completely possible to build teams that don't lose to Rhydon, Sawk, and Kangaskhan. However, every physical wall that isn't a Grass-type will heavily struggle versus Silvally-Ground mainly because of its insane bulk and wallbreaking power.

Silvally-Ground also struggles with offensive teams as its vulnerable to Webs, has a troublesome MU against and Sun and even loses against E-seed sweepers
Is your point that Silvally-Ground loses to cheese? Having to run cheese to not lose to Silvally-Ground isn't a sign of it being healthy.

just outspeed by fast hitters like Cinccino or Smallgeist as Flame Charge its uncommon.
Outisde of Smallgeist how many of these faster attackers can sponge a Multi-Attack from Silvally-Ground? Most of them can't, Scarf Rotom, Alolan Persian, Gourgeist-Small and Scarf Sawk are the only one that aren't OHKOed after Stealth Rock (Sawk doesn't OHKO back, so it's really not that great). Faster checks are quite hard to bring on the terrain, and most of them need quite a bunch of prior damage on GroundVally to revenge kill it.

Also, its adequacy of running Ice Beam over one of its standard moves gives it a little of 4mss as without SD it can't break to naturally bulky pokemon like Uxie, Miltank or Cofagrigus. And lacking U-turn would let it obviously take out its pivot role making it less splashable.
Ice Beam isn't the reason why Silvally-Ground gets all of a sudden suspect tested. Nobody is arguing Ice Beam sets are better than Swords Dance sets, I even think they are pretty bad. The number of Silvally-Ground answers is so low and those are so bad, that Silvally-Ground can easily afford to not be able to beat them. Ice Beam sets are just lures that can come in clutch by taking down the opposing Grass-types, but I'd argue they need too much team support to work unlike the standard Swords Dance set.

Reminder that I'm not saying that Silvally-Ground is a bad pokemon not by any means, but I'm listing a bunch of simple reasons of why I don't think it deserves a ban as multiple pro-ban post have already being made so I'm just bending over this side. So if I ended up doing reqs I'll prob go for dnb.
So the reasons you listed were:
  • Silvally-Ground checks would remain their viability if it was banned, which is a huge stretch and you even listed Pokemon that aren't checks.
  • Cheese has no problem versus Silvally-Ground, so let's fish for matchups!
  • Revenge killing it isn't that hard, which is wrong since there are only few Pokemon faster than it that can take an unboosted Multi-Attack and due to Silvally-Ground's bulk even fewer of them can actually revenge kill it.
  • Ice Beam is a bad set, even if nobody argues Silvally-Ground should be banned because of this move. Pretty sure you didn't vote Ban on Centiskorch even if the RestTalk set was no problem.
 
So as expected I got a heavily condescending reply that takes my writing, simplifies it and then tries to refute it. See Straw Man. I would suggest to Tuthur that if he wants activity on DNB post or whatever that he disagree with, to hold his fire and try to make a healthy discussion. I was not trying to change your mind or doing a post answering you directly which you clearly did now, rather just giving my point of view. Banning Silvally-Ground isn't a bad take, hence why is being suspect tested. But you could please stop forcing your perspective as they were straight facts, when I assure you they are not. Reason why this suspect is more on the fence than others we've had before on SS.

A Pokemon doesn't need to win "brainlessly" or without team support to be banworthy (see Centiskorch and Sneasel).
I never said that Silvally-Ground need to 6-0s to be broken or it sweeps brainlessly, my point was that in contrast to Centi and Sneasel which were teambuilding restricting. Gvally isn't. As metagame has found natural counterplay for it regarding its presence or not, and they are way more consistent than they were for Centiskorch IMO.

So the reasons you listed were:
  • Silvally-Ground checks would remain their viability if it was banned, which is a huge stretch and you even listed Pokemon that aren't checks.
  • Cheese has no problem versus Silvally-Ground, so let's fish for matchups!
  • Revenge killing it isn't that hard, which is wrong since there are only few Pokemon faster than it that can take an unboosted Multi-Attack and due to Silvally-Ground's bulk even fewer of them can actually revenge kill it.
  • Ice Beam is a bad set, even if nobody argues Silvally-Ground should be banned because of this move. Pretty sure you didn't vote Ban on Centiskorch even if the RestTalk set was no problem.
These are not my arguments but I will answer them anyway smh.

  • Most of them will, take Tangela alone it still checks half the tier including Kangaskhan, Sawk, Rhydon, Thwackey, Cinccino and heck even Darkvally, and Shiinotic check those too lmao.
  • I was pointing here that offense doesn't suffer from Silvally-Ground presence as its weak to all variants of this playstyle.
  • I didn't say that revenge kill it isn't hard. But it ain't hard to chip it too as Silvally-Ground doesn't get as many free switch as it would want to. Even coming on potential Volt Switch lets it vulnerable to a Shadow Ball or Overheat which would hinder its ability to break or sweep. Sometimes Gvally player has to keep its vally as healthy as it can to take on a major threat like a Sawk CC.
  • Ice beam is def viable and I won't consider it a bad set at all. As is this variant which makes it burst through its Grass checks, simple as that. Like how Dragonvally would opt for Work Up or special sets to lure in pseudo-checks like Qwil and Garbodor at its time. Comparing that to RestTalk Centiskorch IS a huge stretch, because that set haven't seen use at all where Ice Beam Gvally has and it has been disccused several times.
I'm not replying to this thread anymore as I've said everything I wanted and needed to even if I get another response like this one, which I hope it won't happen. Peace
 
For the Nickelback haters out there I can only say one thing:


Just gonna talk about how I feel on Silv-Ground and what makes me be on the fence (although I am currently leaning ban). I'm gonna start with my DNB side, that is "Savin'" Silv Ground


Posters before me already covered the defensive and offensive counterplay to Silvally-Ground and I personally agree with the side that the counterplay is natural and the top tier counters like Tangela and Gourgeist are excellent mons that'd still be used a ton to check other mons like Rhydon and Sawk that are menacing regardless of Silv being around. Also people really oversell Silvally-Ground's durability since its typing gives it only 1 useful immunity and 3 weaknesses (not counting Rock- because its a very uncommon type in this metagame with stuff like Crustle and Lycanroc being niche, and Aurorus and Kabutops having a secondary STAB that nukes it, although resisting Rhydon's Stone Edge is nice) while it also has no recovery outside of Wish passing or Grassy Terrain. Said that, forcing Silvally-Ground to U-turn is roughly the same as checking it, since it tends to be chipped in this process of coming in and U-turning out, making revenge killing it much easier than its bulk suggests.

Now for my Ban side, that wants to see Silv-Ground "Far Away" from ZU


And now we get to the problematic factor on Silvally-Ground in my humble opinion - Rock Slide
Rock Slide flinch chance can make midground checks to Silv-Ground drop to it after one single flinch (Rotom/Altaria/Cramorant...), and this isn't healthy for the meta in a mon as potent as this one. And yes, luck is a part of the game and we all have been on the both sides of the Toto spectrum, but I don't like how it can play a big factor with a Pokemon that is already extremely consistent. I'm not saying this is a problem on its own by the way, it's just how the fact that Silv-Ground also has this "out" of its already limited checks that makes it troublesome in the metagame.

That's pretty much how I feel. Enjoy the soundtrack!
 

Toto

Explorer of Time, Darkness, & Sky
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Hello cute ZUers, I got reqs a few days ago so I'm just popping by to give my quick thoughts about why I will be voting dnb on Silvally-Ground :blobthumbsup:

Ok so to start of with, I just want to say that Silvally-Ground is a top tier pick and a meta defining pokemon, no one is denying that. I just don't agree with the notion that Silvally-Ground is overcentralizing or requires super specific counterplay to warrant a ban such as with Centiskorch. The meta is the best its ever been currently and Silvally-Ground is entirely manageable in the tier. Whilst niche counterplay such as Shiinotic and Eldegoss does exist and would inevitably fall in viability if Silvally-Ground was banned, this should not be used to take away from the fact that non niche counterplay (mons that are still really good for other reasons even if your opp doesn't use Silvally-Ground) is sufficient. In this post I outlined the offensive and defensive checks and talked about Silvally-Ground in a bit more detail so go check that out if you want. I don't really have anything else to add so I guess thats a wrap and thanks for reading :blobnom:
 
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Tuthur

aka nulthur
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So as expected I got a heavily condescending reply that takes my writing, simplifies it and then tries to refute it. See Straw Man. I would suggest to Tuthur that if he wants activity on DNB post or whatever that he disagree with, to hold his fire and try to make a healthy discussion.
WTF? I quoted what you said to explain what point I was adressing each time. To be honest it seems like only read the latest part of my post which was a conclusion. The answer to your actual points were above and you're only answering to the latest part were I summarize my answer to all your points. There is no way this is straw man, and I'd suggest you to not call me a sophist and actually read my post. You repeated what you originally said and ignored completely every point I pointed out.
I was not trying to change your mind or doing a post answering you directly which you clearly did now, rather just giving my point of view.
I disagreed with the points you brought up to defend Silvally-Ground, therefore I replied to your post. There is nothing personal, no need to get angry at it. This thread's purpose is to have a discussion on Silvally-Ground, so it should make sense that I'm allowed to reply to people giving their point of view. If you disagree with the points I brought up in my post, quote it and tell me why I'm wrong.
Banning Silvally-Ground isn't a bad take, hence why is being suspect tested. But you could please stop forcing your perspective as they were straight facts, when I assure you they are not.
If you're not allowing me to answer to your post, you're the one that force your perspective. Don't switch roles, by calling me out like this for challenging your points, you're the one not accepting criticism and trying to force your perspective by shutting down discussion. Any opinion can be criticized, it's worrying to me that when I point out what feels wrong to me with the DNB points, you get so angry and avoid discussion.

  • Most of them will, take Tangela alone it still checks half the tier including Kangaskhan, Sawk, Rhydon, Thwackey, Cinccino and heck even Darkvally, and Shiinotic check those too lmao.
I already adressed this in my first post. But I'm going to extand on Tangela since you brought it up again.
The viability of Tangela, Gourgeist, Shiinotic, and Eldegoss heavily depends on Silvally-Ground's presence in the tier. Tangela isn't a top 5 Pokemon without Silvally-Ground, it has a lot of flaws due to its passivity, reliance on Eviolite, status weakness, and attrocious special bulk, that people seems to overlook. Gourgeist-Super shares most of Tangela's problems. Gourgeist-Small suffers from Poltergeist being a mediocre STAB move in a metagame where Knock Off is so common and not being so strong, it wouldn't be in A ranks at all without Silvally-Ground. Eldegoss and Shiinotic are shitmons that are super passive, they wouldn't be even ranked if Silvally-Ground wasn't in the tier.
Tangela isn't checking half the tier and it's not a stretch to say this. It relies on Sleep Powder to threaten most stuffs and can't do much once it used it. It walls most physical attackers but relies on its Eviolite to do so, which is a problem since most physical attacker carry this move. Versus Pokemon that aren't physical attackers (walls and special attackers), it relies on crippling them with Toxic / Knock Off / Sleep Powder, but can struggle to do so and a lot of Pokemon don't even care. This Pokemon is great, don't get me wrong. I would most likely stay in the A ranks without Silvally-Ground, but it wouldn't be a top 5 Pokémon.
Shiinotic's bulk is so bad that it is forced to click Strength Sap most of the time to stay healthy enough to not be in 2HKO range of most things. Kangaskhan is 2HKOing Shiinotic after Stealth Rock. Cinccino too, even if Effect Spore can be annyoing. Shiinotic is quickly in range of Silvally-Dark's Iron Head (U-turn chips are enough). Even defensive Rhydon can 2HKO Shiinotic after SR with Stone Edge.
  • I was pointing here that offense doesn't suffer from Silvally-Ground presence as its weak to all variants of this playstyle.
And I was pointing out that bringing up how cheese deals with it is irrelevant. I know you also talked about more standard offense variants and I adressed it later too.
  • I didn't say that revenge kill it isn't hard. But it ain't hard to chip it too as Silvally-Ground doesn't get as many free switch as it would want to. Even coming on potential Volt Switch lets it vulnerable to a Shadow Ball or Overheat which would hinder its ability to break or sweep. Sometimes Gvally player has to keep its vally as healthy as it can to take on a major threat like a Sawk CC.
I can't find where you originally mention this, but yeah it is true that Silvally-Ground isn't hard to chip when using offense. However, this still doesn't adress the point that most faster attackers are straight up OHKOed by Silvally-Ground's Multi-Attack, which is my main issue when building offense.
  • Ice beam is def viable and I won't consider it a bad set at all. As is this variant which makes it burst through its Grass checks, simple as that. Like how Dragonvally would opt for Work Up or special sets to lure in pseudo-checks like Qwil and Garbodor at its time. Comparing that to RestTalk Centiskorch IS a huge stretch, because that set haven't seen use at all where Ice Beam Gvally has and it has been disccused several times.
I was just pointing out that I find silly to discuss the Ice Beam lure set and not the main set when the Ban side isn't finding it concerning. I haven't said it was as viable RestTalk Centiskorch, and I think the Ice Beam lure set is better than the RestTalk set was. However, I'm pretty sure, you would have found silly that people talked about the RestTalk Centiskorch set when trying to defend it. That's just how I felt.
I'm not replying to this thread anymore as I've said everything I wanted and needed to even if I get another response like this one, which I hope it won't happen. Peace
I wish you would have replied to the points I adressed though. I don't feel sorry for responding to your post, since you publically call me out for being a sophist who tries to impose their opinion.

I don't really have anything else to add
I answered to your post in the previous thread explaining why some of your defensive checks weren't one or had issue to handle Silvally-Ground. I think you could have added something about it, whether you agreed with what I answered or not.

All in all, I'd like to get discussions with the DNB side, i.e. that they answer to my concerns regarding Silvally-Ground. I am completely open to discussion and feel free to reply to my posts if you disagree with them or a part of them. I'm chill, I have no problem with you personally and respect you, even if we disagree on Silvally-Ground.
 
I would totally want to know why dnb vally side is on dnb when the soft checks cant keep up doing that for long or are unreliable due to flinch, more hardcore ones can fall for the lure resulting in a free playground for vally and if you're planning to dogpile soft checks then how is running about the same 3 mons on every team not considered restricting? There is also the fact that while offense works well against vally what about stall bo and balance? I remember high ups telling me couple months back that current zu is best ss zu because every playstyle is good ( yeah we don't talk about tr ). So, now since pyuku gets Uturned, tang can fall for lure, most bo mons cant keep switching in and a simple core like vally mane or vally thievul completely obliterate stuff what is your ans? Ik I will be said that same applies to other vally forms but noo. lets do a check.
GROUND resist :
1) Grass : falls to lue and gourg after a few ma cant switch in anymore
2) Flying: Falls to rslide
3) Levitate: Don't do shit or rslide weak or unreliable

DARK resist:
1) Dark: Skun and alolasian rock
2) Fairy: Alc and clef can do crap even with iron head, though not much
3) Fighting : Sawk and Throh smack
4) intimidate : contrary to a 180 bp SE atk, qwil can tank and abuse

FLYING resist : do I have to say? Just regular vswitch
Sry those are the only two vally I have heard about for post gvally.

So anyway the point is that edge quake with a favourable speed tier , sr resist and nice natural bulk but monotonous edge quake resist is too much imo.
That being said I myself have been moving between ban and dnb for sometime so as I said at the start I would like to hear the dnb side and in detail, not just the plain "we have natural counterplay and soft checks" because Tuthur already spoke about it's flaws but I didn't see any clear ans to it and even I have talked a bit about it above
 
Just like other people I’m on the fence about vally-g, the meta is in a god spot imo, but it is undeniable that the physically defensive side of things would have a lot more of breathing room with vally-g out of the picture (or so it would seem), previous posts already cover a lot of the points I have in mind so I will just give my opinion on some points to consider for both sides.

Dnb: I Will not talk about the grass types in the following points as I think everything has already been said
  • Silvally’s mediocre attack
Don’t get me wrong 95 is a good attack stat, with mons like kanga and cinc that share this number being heavy hitters capable of OHKOing frail and 2HKOing not so frail ones, but something they have in common is that they rely on high bp moves to do this amounts of damage, this implies a severe damage loss when they are not using said moves or when facing physical walls that they don’t super effectively hit. In vally-g’s case this happens when facing flying or levitate mons, and yes it has rocks slide coverage, but it’s low bp really shows this point.
252 Atk Silvally-Ground Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Altaria: 116-138 (32.7 - 38.9%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Silvally-Ground Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 204 Def Cramorant: 158-188 (46 - 54.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Silvally-Ground Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 40-48 (11.2 - 13.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Silvally-Ground Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Fan: 124-148 (40.7 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Silvally-Ground Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom: 82-97 (34 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • SD dependence
Vally-g wall breaking powers comes in the form of sword dance boosting its attack stat to let it break physical walls that otherwise avoid being 2HKOed and have recovery, or the flying types mentioned before, and this much needed turn to set up is another of silvally’s weaknesses.

A lot of mons can abuse this set up turn to cripple it either with toxic to put it on a timer, Wow to negate its offensive capabilities or even attack it to put it in range of faster attackers or priority users, and even if vally attacks directly they avoid being 2HKOed and can then engage in a recovery spam.
252 Atk Silvally-Ground Multi-Attack vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Miltank: 153-180 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Silvally-Ground Multi-Attack vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 88-105 (27.5 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Silvally-Ground Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Jellicent: 157-186 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Even targets hit super effectively can take one non boosted multi if needed in a pinch

252 Atk Silvally-Ground Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 164-194 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Silvally-Ground Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sandslash-Alola: 270-320 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • Lack of recovery
Silvally’s great bulk and typing let it hard switch in a lot of mons to do damage, set up or force this mons out, but it can’t do this forever as it lacks reliable recovery moves to give it longevity, so it needs to be careful of when to switch unless its an electric move of course.

Things like skuntank’s chance to poison, toxic users, spikes and a range of other things (fisk forms are now running foul play fgs) chip at vally’s health, putting it in range of faster attackers or priority users to revenge kill.
  • In game situations
Things always sound much broken in paper than they actually are, and we can never expect ideal situations to always occur, this is one of the reasons I don’t buy some of tuthur reasoning’s, expecting that silvally will always sd on the rotom or always multi the offensive check is not realistic, high level play is full of reads, and unexpected sets or moves.

If for example I have a team with both cin and rotom, will you sd on the rotom and go for the flinch chance or multi the incoming cin?, if you sd will you risk the cin being banded and OHKOing you?, or the rotom being scarf and wow? You can always go for the u-turn, but what if they predict and stay with the mon you are trying to force out?

For a real example, during the first cycle of zult I faced yovan on ladder various times (not a pleasant experience) some of this times they were running a team with mawile, eggy, thievul, articuno, Whiscash and I don’t remember the last but it was either multi or rock slide weak. This gets 6-0 by vally-g on paper, but in game yovan outplayed me every single turn, either toxic on the sd or taking multi with eggy or cuno, forcing me to go for the u-turn or rock slide on the incoming mawile for the helmet chip.

The point of this is not to highlight how much I suck, but that good(GOD) level players can play around vally-g or any other pokemon even with teams that lose to it on paper.

Ban: This will be much shorter in comparison as the points have already been covered by other people, also this points extend to the other silvally forms as I personally think that if vally-g gets banned, the other ones should be heavily watched as well.
  • Multi attack is broken
120 bp move with no drawbacks is just insane, OHKOing frail mons and 2HKOing almost all defensive non-resistant targets after an sd, and with a wide move pool it can choose the coverage needed for those resistant mons.

This gives vally forms the ability to just sweep teams or break defensive cores after just one setup turn if you lack the respective counter play to the form you are facing.
  • Unpredictability
The fact that its typing is hiden in team preview makes it harder to plan around the vally form, although you can make some assumptions like “they already have a ground type so is probably not vally-g” making the wrong assumption can lead to a thought endgame, will you keep your Persian-a healthy for the Silvally-dark and then lose the Silvally- fighting?

The possibility of mixed vally sets is another problem as it gets so many moves and it can use work up to boost them further, that scouting can really be troublesome.
  • In game situations
Just like good players can play and predict around to survive certain threats, good players can also predict, play and build to make the most out of their offensive threats, if you put eves in tang to avoid vally-g ice beam 2HKO what if it gets knock by a Thwackey or sawk or even killed by kanga after it loses its evio saving the need to run ice beam in the first place.

In my previous example, had I get any turn right vs yovan, the best case scenario was one or several mons dead, with high chances to just lose the game on the spot.
  • Choose your Silvally
With 14 Silvally forms you never now witch one you will face next, although some are more viable than others you can’t possibly prepare for all of them (especially in our cursed low ladder).

If vally-dark raises will throh be the new tang, if poison does, will bulky skunk be the new defensive go to?
  • Toto factor
Rock slide/iron head flinch can invalidate all the theoretical counter play I listed before, but the same argument can be made for every mon with a flinch/freeze move, to take this as reason to ban vally forms is up to each one.

Ending words:

I won’t be sure of what my vote will be until the moment I click the post button, vally-g is perfectly manageable in the tier and the meta is in a great spot, but the overall power of vally forms can prove to be too much to handle if people start experimenting with several of them, taking action on other vally forms and letting vally-g stay seems weird to me as it is the best of them at the moment.

So as I said in my reqs post, we either let them all stay and deal with them, or we ban some of the most problematic ones (namely ground and dark at a minimum).

This is the first post I ever made and English is not my native language so let me know of any mistakes that seriously hurt your eyes during the read.
 
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hi everyone
time to share my thoughts on the most divisive vally of all (excuse the rather chaotic nature of this post)

There has been a lot of discussion surrounding how well different playstyles struggle with groundvally, but personally idt there's a lot to say. Stall is usally fine bc it can run one of (or both) Tangela and Pyukumuku. I disagree with the notion that offense barely struggles with it since 95/95/95 bulk and a volt immunity can prove to be annoying. (rip eterrain specifically) Categorizing different types of balance is rather subjective so I'll refrain from delving into that, even if they can usally afford a bulky grass/levitater. I've seen a lot of misrepresentation concerning groundvally checks and what even counts as one, so I'll be listing the most common/best ones.

-levitating checks
- :Uxie: A common argument is that Uxie generally can't do much back to groundvally. However, it is still effective at forcing it out since groundvally's only way of dealing significant damage is with u-turn. Uxie can also add one of fsight, yawn or toxic to its moveset to help in that regard, or use the slow u-turn on the same turn as silvally's u-turn to get the upper hand.
- :Rotom: I'm issuing a vendetta against anyone that claims tuthur's math is wrong Rotom has about 40% of straight up losing if it switches in on sd, and almost certainly loses if it previously switched in on a rock slide. It can still put groundvally in dangerous 50/50's where you rock silde a ground weak target or click multi into a rotom.
- Wack stuff like scarf frosttom or scarf wisp fantom can be useful bc of the surprise factor even if they're not very reliable.
- As you likely noticed, these aren't the most effective checks, but they still usally suffice on a team that isn't too weak to groundvally or in combination with a softer check like wishi or jelly.

-grass checks
- I'm not counting fake checks like Lurantis or Eldegoss bc they don't resist u-turn (which imo is the point) and consequently get chipped too hard.
- :Tangela: immediately contradicting myself, tang is great despite not resisting u-turn due to sheer bulk and regenerator. The biggest worry when using Tangela (imo) is that it's prone to being knocked and overwhelmed bc it gets majorly prepped for. For example, cb sawk 2hko's when knocked (which it can even do itself), or cb Thwackey's u-turn, which can prevent it from healing off of regen alone while maintaining momentum.
- :gourgeist: smallgour outspeeds which is huge, since groundvally can't safely sd like with tangela. If you get the 50/50 wrong there is a dangerous life orb/choice band/colbur gourgeist that you need to switch in to. Smallgour's viability is not just dependent on groundvally, since it can break through opposing bulky grasses with fire blast and has a great speed tier/typing for the meta in general.
- other gours work just fine too ofc, since they're bulkier at the cost of being slower (Trevenant in gterrain teams also exists ig)
- :Shiinotic: look down

-Shiinotic (yes I wrote an entire paragraph on Shiinotic)
Shiinotic gets a bad rep bc "haha funny obb mon" (I didn't even come up with it lol, landon did) when it's actually a cool antimeta mon rn and offers a lot of compression. This is relevant bc it's arguably the best groundvally answer we have due to a combination of effect spore, being able to afford helmet, a perfect typing for it, and not dropping to ice beam sets (unlike tang and gour). Especially punishing contact is very important since it guarantees progress, and not just vs groundvally. The common mons it checks includes, but isn't limited to, Sawk, Thwackey, Thievul, Morpeko, Appletun, Shiftry, waters in general, even common ladder mons like Lurantis or Malamar. (biggest issue is u need to pair it with a good kanga check but this isn't a post about shiinotic). Especially practical is resisting dark since thievul/groundvally is a potent core (just look at how the other groundvally checks fare vs thievul). Shiinotic's bst seems garbage until you realise its atk and spe (which it doesn't really need) are just super low. This mon shouldn't be used on stall/fat balance but rather on offensive teams that have defensive holes in them that tang can't fill or fills worse (bc sure shii isn't a waterproof answer vs thievul or basculin, but unlike with tang, you force them to predict). Apologies if you're tired of me rambling about shiinotic.

I don't consider groundvally to be broken or overwhelming, but it could be considered unhealthy due to its limited number of good checks and how it completely dismantles teams without them. What I'm wondering is, will groundvally teams be optimized even further until they become truly overwhelming, or will teams adapt to the point where groundvally is just zu's natural S rank, like swanna/busken/eggy for smzu?

tldr: try optimizing, and adapting to groundvally, unsure myself (and if i'm unsure I usally vote dnb), shiinotic is huge, am also likely going to make a post about if we resuspect anything it should be magmortar, not turtonator, that's all from me gn :)
 
I have gone back and forth on the case of Silvally-Ground and wanted to give my two cents on the matter after thinking about it a little harder today. While I am generally unsettled whenever a Pokemon drives up the usage of its counters – as Centiskorch did with Altaria and Qwilfish – I’m not as compelled by the concept of the ‘grass tax’ as named by kay and argued by Tuthur. While there are niche Grass-types seeing usage they otherwise wouldn’t, I do think Tangela and Gourgeist-Small are very good Pokemon on their own. I also think there is merit to the argument that Silvally-Ground is easily pressed for switch-in opportunities vs. offensive teams. I made reqs with a bulky offense team and didn’t really have a problem dealing with Silvally-Ground, for example.

That said, Silvally-Ground is extremely threatening to balance compositions. Its speed tier, Stealth Rock resistance, and access to U-turn makes it hard for slower teams to attrition. And while there are soft checks that people have alluded to, it will almost always defeat soft checks like utility Rotom and Wishiwashi over the course of a game if it is piloted correctly. Furthermore, it tends to generate a lot of momentum and pressure balance teams with its unresisted Multi-Attack/Rock Slide combo and pivoting. Its ability to lure its counters and pave the way for breakers is very threatening. Defensive counterplay to Silvally-Ground generally involves forcing it to U-turn, but its user is often benefitting from this even if it denies an opportunity for Silvally-Ground to set up.

I do not think that Silvally-Ground is centralizing to the extent that Centiskorch was, but I do feel that its coverage, pivoting, and boosting ability are a bit restricting for certain team compositions. For that reason, I will be voting ban.
 
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5gen

jumper
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We've had numerous good posts in the thread and just about everything has been covered regarding Silvally-Ground. While I feel that Silvally-Ground is a manageable threat in this metagame, the pro-ban side makes some strong arguments. Most notably, Silvally-Ground is pretty difficult to check defensively without resorting to Tangela and it's arguably the best breaker in ZU because Ground-type Multi Attack+Rock Slide+U-turn (and lesser so, threat of Ice Beam sets) is just so effective. Also has that Silvally bulk which makes it more difficult to revenge kill than other offensive threats. However, I feel that playing around Silvally-Ground is more dynamic than the pro-ban side makes it out to be. Admittedly I'm also on the fence here, but what I mean is that although Silvally-Ground is incredible offensively and difficult to check, it's not a cut and dry situation. Silvally-Ground is prone to chip, vulnerable to Spikes and TSpikes, Grass-types are super popular (even if some niche ones are a byproduct of Silv-Ground), and there are plenty of soft checks.

Slower teams definitely struggle against Silvally-Ground and need something like Tangela or Pyukumuku to have a consistent answer, but they can manage outside of that via soft checks, entry hazards, status, and/or Pokemon that can trade vs Silvally-Ground. To me, the point of how oppressive and centralizing Silvally-Ground is against slower/bulkier teams is the strongest argument from the pro-ban side. Silvally-Ground is pretty much the only wallbreaker and setup sweeper to have no glaring flaw and one or two reliable checks (Pyuku is relegated to stall so it's not even splashable), so checking it in particular is a pain for slower teams. More specifically, imo Silv-Ground is the only Pokemon with the bulk and offensive capabilities it has. Stuff like CB Sawk, Jynx, Alcremie, Rotom, etc can be exploited well. I've made it work and seen teams that can get by without needing Tangela, but I'm not sure if my perception of what is acceptable and manageable translates to what other players think. For example, I can rely on soft checks and wearing Silvally-Ground down, but others may not want to prepare for a Pokemon such as Silvally-Ground. May not be nearly as consistent as slapping Tangela on and you have less margin for error, but it works. Regardless, Tangela is super good and checks a lot outside of Silv-Ground so I don't really understand that as a point (needing Tangela to be able to handle it) from the pro-ban side.

There's no doubt that removing Silvally-Ground will free up teambuilding because that means removing one of or arguably the best offensive Pokemon in the metagame, and that would hold true for nearly all metas with a top tier breaker. I think Silv-Ground is the only real outlier in ZU at the moment and nothing else even needs a suspect. Anyway I'm still on the fence here so we'll see how the vote turns out.
 

kay

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Alright with Ground-Vally's departure from the tier, lets take a look at meta predictions going into ZUPL because I don't think Ground-vally leaving is going to impact the tier in the way people were hoping it was going to.

:rotom: :skuntank:
The two big winners of this suspect test. The viablity of Scarf and Specs rotom is generally about the same as people are just going to gravitate to different volt immunities, but the huge winner of this shift will be the Hex and NP sets now that we don't have a faster-than-rotom electric immunity outside Manectric who has been struggling recently with the popularity of Rhydon which means Hex and NP sets can just start running rampant on the slower bulkier ground immunities.

Skunktank is pretty straightforward. Ground-Vally could always switch in and punish it for clicking Taunt or NP which meant your entire game plan rested on you fishing for Sludge poisons. Now with it gone you're more free to click NP and do what skunk wants to be doing.

:stunfisk: :rhydon:
Stunfisk and Rhydon are probably going to see a priority increase as Skuntank and Rotom gain more viability as direct answers to both of them. Rydon has already been exploding in popularity but now we have even more justification for it. Stunfisk is in the same boat, and while it is more passive, it ends up acting as a much harder answer to them both as well as coming in handy against Ninetales and the "random" Vallies like Electric, Poison, and Flying in ways that Rhydon can't.

:ferroseed: :cradily: :lurantis:
So this is the unfortunate part. A lot of people voted ban on Ground-Vally hoping it would change the "grass tax" in the tier but in reality we're still going to need our bulky grasses for stuff like Thwacky, Rhydon, offensive Geist, ect so the only impact on our grasses are the grass types that didn't really help deal with Vally-Ground now having increased viability because its less awkward to build with them now. Tangela is still going to be a top 5 mon in the tier.



I think overall the meta isn't going to change nearly as much as people think, with only a handful of pokemon really seeing any changes to their viability as a result of the ban and team building is largely going to look the exact same so its not even like it takes less pressure off building. There is room for odd things like Golbat being used as a Grass resist which when paired with something like Jellicent can take the place of needing bulky grasses as the core covers a lot of what you'd need a bulky grass to do, but it still only really benefits some fringe builds. This is just a meta prediction so take this all with a grain of salt!
 
silvally-ground is banned !
:ss/silvally-ground:
thoughts on the ban: overall i think i’m okay with silvally-ground being banned. while losing a volt switch immunity is unfortunate, silvally-ground’s often overwhelming physical prowess meant that a ban was at least understandable. it’s still unknown how deeply this ban will affect teambuilding, but i can’t imagine it hurting too bad.
:ss/tangela:
is the Grass Tax Era over? bulky grass-types such as tangela, gourgeist forms, and niche picks like shiinotic were almost “required” on teams due to silvally-ground’s presence against teambuilding. with these grass-types resisting multi attack, they were able to check silvally-ground on a rather general level. as silvally-ground gets banned, it was initially thought that these grass-types would fall off in viability, even if it’s just a tad. in spite of this, it seems clear that the defensive value from pokémon like tangela (checks kanga and sawk) and gourgeist-small (checks ground types while still being great offensively) extend quite a bit outside of checking silvally-ground. while they definitely don’t love silvally-ground being banned, it’s still difficult to say that the Grass Tax Era is truly over.
:ss/skuntank::ss/rhydon:
winners of the silvally-ground ban: pokémon that were countered or checked by silvally-ground are obviously going to get better as the ban is enforced. skuntank could do little to nothing against silvally-ground, besides praying that aftermath chip puts the opponent in revenge killing range. skuntank admittedly did pair very well with silvally-ground, as the grass tax only resulted in more potential victims to boosted sludge bombs, but it seems like the era isn’t about to die off just yet. so skuntank either (a) loves that its biggest check is gone, (b) loves the rise of grass-types, or (c) both. another big winner is rhydon, who has already proven to be an absolutely fierce threat in zu, even without the ban of silvally-ground. that being said, the ban means that one of rhydon’s biggest rivals as a volt-immune pokémon is gone.
:ss/rotom::ss/rotom-fan::ss/rotom-frost:
are the rotoms bound to rise? there was a bit of a back-and-forth matchup between rotom forms and silvally-ground, but i think the ban of silvally-ground is an overall big win for all rotom forms. on one hand, they were all immune to multi attack, and could all threaten to burn silvally-ground with a wisp. rotom was also able to revenge kill a heavily chipped silvally-ground with shadow ball. on the other hand, there’s no shot that any rotom form would ever want to switch into a rock slide, especially after a swords dance boost. often times, fan and frost had to be on the field before silvally-ground in order to actually threaten it. the 1v1 wasn’t great, and switching into it only rarely worked. so with silvally-ground gone, the rotom forms can really hone in their potential as fantastic additions to almost any team. rotom has insane amounts of versatility, and silvally-ground’s ban means that specs will only be better on rotom. rotom-fan has the most defensive utility, as it has a great defensive typing in this tier, and rotom-frost is an outstanding offensive pivot that deals copious amounts of damage.
 

kay

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is the Grass Tax Era over?
Well I planned to make a post about this and I guess now's a good time as any. The answer is simply no and the grass tax had very little to do with Vally-ground.

We have a fundamental issue in ZU where we have no good defensive poison types that can act as consistent Grass resists outside Golbat which leads to defensive grasses being the premier grass resists because stuff like Altaria and utility Rapidash both struggle with taking knock offs and when Shiftry, Thwacky, and Tangela all carry knock off as their most spammable move then you start to run into some issues. Skunktank and Vally-Poison also can offer some help but they're both going to end up being 1 time switch ins to things like Shiftry, Thwacky, and Geist which isn't exactly ideal.

There is also the problem of we don't really have ground resists that can take on Rhydon, the new premier ground type, outside Uxie and grass types which again means you're back to just needing grass types. Where we lack in defensive options, grass types have really picked up the slack where the tier needs it most.


1628832703089.png

And now we get to Tangela because Tangela is really the entire embodiment of what a defensive grass type is, on top of keeping almost half the tier check that other grasses can't do like Kangaskan, Silvally-dark, Sawk, Geist, Cinc, ect. The list is almost limitless outside saying "90% of physical mons in the tier get stopped by this" and its crazy to me that people all the sudden think losing Vally-ground makes Tangela bad when we absolutely need defensive grasses in the tier by virtue of not having any other options. Tangela remains an absolute staple in the tier still and the "grass tax" wasn't a product of Vally-Ground but a byproduct of the lack of any better options and that hasn't changed in the slightest.
 
my thoughts on the ZU metagame right now:

:ss/rhydon: :ss/piloswine: :ss/stunfisk:

1. there aren’t enough reliable immunities to volt switch. although rhydon is fantastic, and piloswine and stunfisk definitely are cool, ultimately those are the 3 primary options for a volt switch immunity. even if manectric, seaking, and raichu also count, they’re much more niche options in comparison. other volt immune pokémon like alolan dugtrio are too frail to consistently rely on. because of this, i feel like it’s harder to contain voltturn teams right now. that’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it does feel like the amount of options for good volt immunities are limited.

:ss/rotom: :ss/rotom-frost: :ss/rotom-fan:

2. our predictions of a rise in rotom forms were extremely correct. rotom has established itself as the most versatile pokémon in the tier, and although it doesn’t do anything to a top tier degree, its utility and amazing chemistry with all team styles is unmatched. its usability is comparable to that of landorus-t in ou, aegislash in uu, and so on. rotom-frost on the other hand is an offensive beast, being extremely hard to switch into. its rise to A tier has been staggering, but undoubtedly well deserved. while rotom-fan has dropped in its ranking, i actually think defensive fantom sets are extremely underrated. it has the role compression that rotom has, but the bulk and typing that allows it to actually pull off a fully defensive set.

:ss/tangela: :ss/gourgeist-small: :ss/thwackey:

3. like it or not, the grass tax is here to stay. although silvally-ground’s ban hurts the grass-types a bit, overall they still provided immense defensive and offensive value to the tier. many grass-types in zu have great amounts of bulk, and grass is a type that resists earthquake and other notable moves. furthermore, with the common trope of teams having a volt switch immunity, grass-types prey on these ground-type pokémon. if arctozolt and hitmonlee were to drop to zu, the story might be different here; for the time being though, grass-types are part of what make zu the tier it is.
 
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Jett

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rotom frost.png
Rotom-Frost is one of the most unique Pokemon in SS ZU. Its typing is both a blessing and a curse; on the one hand, only Magnemite and itself resist both its STAB attacks before factoring any abilities and only handful more after factoring them: Seaking, Piloswine, Chinchou, and Shedinja which doesn't resist its attacks as such but it doesnt take any damage from them. On the other hand, Ice is one of the worst defensive types in general, and while its Electric-typing does help to offer a few neat resistances, being weak to relatively common types in Fire and Fighting is less than ideal. Heavy-Duty Boots is an absolute godsend for this Pokemon as it can now pivot freely without worrying about Stealth Rock. Its stat distribution is odd as well, being quite bulky for an offensive threat at 50/107/107 which helps compensate its lacklustre defensive typing... slightly. A base Speed of 86 isn't tremendously fast but it just so happens to creep many of ZU's staples such as Articuno, Qwilfish, Sawk, Skuntank, and Thwackey.

As for its movepool, coverage wise it is extremely shallow, but this isn't too much of a problem given how its STABs alone are able to hit nearly all of the metagame for at least neutral damage; except when it does no damage at all because of how inconsistent Blizzard is. Taking a look at it's utility options, however, will reveal why Rotom-Frost is as effective as it is and is currently deemed a top-tier Pokemon. Nasty Plot further amplifies its wallbreaking power, Volt Switch helps it wear down incoming switch-ins and preserve momentum, Substitute allows it to capitalise on passive Pokemon and avoid Toxic, Will-O-Wisp cripples physical Pokemon, Pain Split provides it with increased longevity, Trick debilitates one of the opponent's walls, and Defog providing team support. While many of these options aren't used very often, Rotom-Frost offers a lot of variability for what seems like a pretty one dimensional offensive wallbreaker. In a vaccuum, it would seem as if Rotom-Frost is pretty manageable in ZU but this honestly has been the case from my experience from playing the post Silvally-Ground metagame.

Teambuilding Against Rotom-Frost

As with most Pokemon that are banned or potentially banworthy, their effect on teambuilding is often cited as one of the reasons as to why they should be removed from a metagame, and Rotom-Frost is no different. Previously we've mentioned that the answers to Rotom-Frost defensively are extremely sparse and that it's reliable counters are limited to:

:piloswine: :seaking::shedinja: (not counting itself ofc and Chinchou doesn't count either cause it sucks even more than Seaking)

- Piloswine is forced to run Rock Slide, loses if it gets burnt, and its longevity is severely reduced if Stealth Rock are up.
- Seaking is a straight up counter all things considered and can pivot on expected switch-ins, main issue is it's Seaking and would never be used if it weren't for Rotom-Frost.
- Shedinja must be wary of Will-O-Wisp. Rotom-Frost is a big reason why Shedinja is used on Stall teams.

Most teams therefore rely on either soft checks or offensive checks in order to deal with Rotom-Frost. The defensive checks aren't super hard to come by but they either have issues with longevity or get pivoted on with ease and therefore are required to be paired with a Ground-type or Lightning Rod user, leading to 50/50s. The offensive checks can reliably revenge kill Rotom-Frost but most of them cannot safely switch in, or can only switch into an attack once.

Defensive: :miltank: :rapidash: :audino: :ferroseed::frosmoth: :malamar: :perrserker: :coalossal: :stunfisk-galar: :throh:
Offensive: :sawk: :rapidash: :cinccino: :ninetales::silvally-fighting:(most of them but especially Fighting) :jynx: :kabutops::klinklang: :manectric: :raichu:

Many of these Pokemon aren't particularly difficult to fit onto teams and aren't typically brought just for the sake of Rotom-Frost. They act as tools which are by no means sufficient at dealing with Rotom-Frost alone but when paired with a Ground-type and sometimes a Pokemon that resists Ice-type, some smart pivoting will mean Rotom-Frost can usually be managed. However, this requires having multiple Pokemon somewhat dedicated to just dealing with one specific Pokemon and while having a couple Pokemon collectively to deal with one Pokemon is uncommon for top tier Pokemon, this still requires careful manoeuvring since Ground-types can't switch into Rotom-Frost's Blizzard but most Pokemon hate being Volt Switched upon. Offensive answers do force Rotom-Frost out when give a free switch but this requires sacrificing the health of a slow pivot which can't always be done or having one of your Pokemon faint in the first place.

There are some hyper offense matchups that Rotom-Frost can struggle in; Sun for instance has plenty of offensive Pokemon that outpace Rotom-Frost and pretty much render it useless as long as the Sun is up, while Trick Room is similarly annoying for Rotom-Frost. However, these styles aren't all that common with most teams being bulky offense, balance or stall, which struggle with Rotom-Frost far more. It should be noted that a big reason for Rotom-Frost's success at the moment is because teambuilding feels rather restraining in general, not just because of Rotom-Frost (although it definitely doesn't help). It feels like certain types are required on teams and the variety in those teams is rather limited. Teams often end up rather similar and Rotom-Frost is able to capitalise on the Water/Grass/Ground-type cores that are often see on teams. These Pokemon can get easily lured in by a pivot such as Wishiwashi, Thwackey, Kabutops, and Basculin, and give Rotom-Frost a free opportunity to either setup, fire off a powerful attack or continue the pivoting cycle. This becomes nearly impossible to deal with if Stealth Rock are up, and Rotom-Frost is excellent at pressuring many of the common hazard control users in the metagame and creating this snowball effect.

Playing Against Rotom-Frost

I sort of already hinted at it in the previous paragraph with regards to how Rotom-Frost has plenty of options when it gets in on Pokemon it typically forces out, such as the very common Tangela. A large part as to why Rotom-Frost's presence in the metagame is concerning is because of the 50/50s it forces upon opponents. Ground-types can block Rotom-Frost's Volt Switch attempts but get destroyed by Blizzard; the same is also true for Lightning Rod Pokemon like Raichu and Manectric. On the other hand, Pokemon such as Rapidash, Ninetales, Klinklang and other Ice-type resists can switch into Blizzard fairly easily but they get chipped, with no time to either heal up or fire off an attack as a response, making them less effective checks long term. Especially when paired with other pivots, it has the option to constantly force these 50/50s because of how good its STAB combination is, and often the opposing team has to dodge a Blizzard to be left with breathing room to comfortably pivot around Rotom-Frost, since you have to guess correctly nearly every time, while it is much easier for the Rotom-Frost player to just click buttons.

I do believe these 50/50s are a massive sign of unhealthiness. Pokemon in the past have been banned for the exact same reason, see Alolan Exeggutor, Drampa, Magneton and a few others. There is very little drawback when Rotom-Frost guesses incorrectly since against slower non-Ground-types it can just pivot out (Heavy-Duty Boots meaning you can't even punish it with Stealth Rock), and against Ground-types it can just fire off a Blizzard again in most cases since most Ground-types don't deal much damage to it and most are also slower than it. Arguments can be made that we haven't given the metagame enough time to adapt but it already feels that matchup is quite a large determining factor in ZUPL games so far, with Rotom-Frost being one of the main reasons for the teambuilding strain so I'd still like to see something done about.

Please never make me rush out a post again, council >:(. :ss/rotom-frost:
 
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S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

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ZU Council is voting on Rotom-Frost! Copy of votes: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ONxRd28uRNgdQmGsLHMXGHsC07Vk511g0C1cHh3IZ9s/edit?usp=sharing

ZUPL is about halfway done and one thing is clear: Rotom-F is hard to deal with and very centralizing. It plagues the metagame with much of the same problems that Silvally-Ground had, given that it sets up, pivots, and attacks with perfect coverage. Only a few niche counters like Piloswine, Seaking, and Shedninja can stop Nasty Plot into Volt Switch. Every other special wall gets worn down from Volt Switch or is too pressured by Blizzard. Read Jett 's post above for a more in-depth and great summary of these issues! These factors make many of us believe that Rotom-F is too unhealthy to be a part of the meta.

What took so long for Rotom-F to be deemed problematic? Probably the other threats in the tier + Blizzard's inaccuracy discouraging use from a lot of players. There was also the competition with regular Rotom, which has always been a popular and good pick in the tier. Now, it's clear Rotom-F is worth these small tradeoffs and the Rotom-F centralization is arguably too constricting.

Note that this is a quickban vote with the intention to re-suspect post-October shifts. The council understands the issue of quickbanning this late into a metagame, but we believe it is in best interest and representation of the playerbase. Of course, the main reason for a quickban over a suspect is to preserve the competitive nature of ZUPL, which is a very important tour for the tier and community. Voting on a potentially broken Pokemon like Rotom-F would ensure that the metagame is healthier come playoffs. Conveniently, playoffs and finals will be right around the time of October's rises and drops. This will be a great time to evaluate the state of the new meta, and if Rotom-F ends up quickbanned, then the council will most likely then reissue a suspect test to unban Rotom-F. Again, this quickban is going into effect to preserve the quality of ZUPL and Rotom-F will mostly likely be reevaluated in the form of a suspect test come early-October.

The vote will end before week 4 of ZUPL.


Please never make me rush out a post again, council >:(. :ss/rotom-frost:
no :mad:

JK it is of course our apologies for the poor timing regarding community input. The council only came to this conclusion because we believed it was necessary. More over, regardless of the outcome of this vote, the community will likely have a much more involved and comfortable time to express their views on Rotom-F in a suspect test come early-October. We'll get back to you all soon regarding these results!
 
tack told me over a month ago that rotom-frost is the best rotom form, she’s a prophet lol

anyways i think rotom-frost is busted as hell, i love using it but i understand that it’s in all likelihood a bit too good. switching into it is hard as hell when you either (a) get volt switched on or (b) die to blizzard. there’s also nasty plot sets which are stupidly good wincons if you can support it against faster opponents

overall while i think it’s far from perfect, it’s definitely extremely good and has the potential of being banworthy
 

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