NU Stage 5: Pursuit Of Happiness

Kiyo

Spongebob is my favorite anime.
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#1


Hello, going into NU's next stage, we're moving forward by suspect testing Sneasel.

Sneasel’s base 115 Speed puts it ahead of the majority of the metagame, and several of the Pokemon that would outpace it through means such as Choice Scarf, boosting moves, and naturally higher Speed stats are taken down by a powerful Ice Shard. Sneasel's STAB moves hit most of the Pokémon in the tier for at least neutral damage, and those that it cannot are easy to wear down, or at the very least detest losing their item to a Knock Off. Perhaps Sneasel’s best quality is its ability to pressure and pursuit trap the tier’s Ghost- and Psychic-types. The sheer number of Pokemon that are considered a liability or are completely unviable due to Sneasel’s presence in the tier speaks volumes about its effect on the metagame. For these reasons the NU Council has unanimously decided that Sneasel is worthy of a suspect test.

Sneasel will be allowed on the ladder during this suspect test.

The reqs will be 2700 COIL with a B value of 9.0 and a 70 game limit. This suspect period will last for 10 days, ending Tuesday, January 9th at 11:59 PM EDT.

N=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2700)

Tagging the The Immortal for the ladder.

/!\ Rules for posting in this thread /!\

  1. No one liners nor uninformed posts;
  2. No discussion on other potential suspects;
  3. No discussion on the suspect process;
  4. You are required to make respectful posts;
Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
 
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Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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#2
yo just to keep it real brief

sneasel has been a goat in this tier for a minute, but it has been especially menacing recently b/c of the presence of pkmn like zangoose who necessitate support from a pursuiter. sneasel excels moreso now than ever and similarly to in oras, i feel it is a very negative presence to the metagame atm. however, what really pushes it over the edge is the fact that it has high speed, passable attack, and a really anti-meta niche typing and effect on games given everything it brings to the table rn. i feel like pursuit is clearly the heart of the pro-ban argument, but to add onto that, there also is the fact that sneasel has so much going for it. i'm likely voting pro-ban and am looking forward to getting reqs, but i will keep my eye open if i feel other things are more banworthy and sneasel is just a reaction of sorts as a suspect, a reaction to the tier's current state that is. i do not think this is the case tho, i think sneasel is the clear issue given how i see matters rn. will post more later for sure, but probably pro-ban yea
 
#3
From the start of this gen Sneasel has been a dominant threat to accel as a trapper, all out revenge killer and even providing it's own wallbreaking support early on in the meta with the raw uses Knock/Icicle Crash have. Because of how few things actually want to switch into banded Knock first time and banded crash second most teams often have an answere to it and try to take away what sneasel wants to remove the most (example running colbur Delphox, Colbur Mismagius or just not running that regular Rotom as it leaves you too wide open for sneasel to come in).
With Zangoose as mentioned above essentially forcing down a number of offensive pokemon(Ghosts) or more agressive play I did like to say it would decrease how usefull sneasel is because it now is more pressed on the speed tier. In reality it just got even better. Whimsi+ Zangoose + Sneasel-, Sneasel Hazard stack- and even Sneasel Stall with Type: Null-formatted teams simply are reliable with strong stance to a large number. I could say Zangoose is to blame for one of them but I honestly see Whimsi/Sneasel do much more for Offense then Zangoose ever has to do anything as it just sits there to grab attention. With that in mind they get to wittle everything else down as you need to preserve that Sillvally-steel, that Mismagius, that whatever really to not lose to what Sneasel wants to support.
Provided Sneasel gets the opportunity it's able to showcase that on a level not many other pokemon could(Vika/Vanilluxe had there argument in the past for not having answeres for their raw force while holding choice specs) but Sneasel does this as well but sits with the afterthought of always removing what it wants to remove, ability to revenge even some of our sometimes forgotten set up mons like vivillon, Virizion, OTR-Exeggutor etc and not to forget a speed tier able to hold back pretty much everything not named Whimsicott/Accelgor(Whimsi did also need to be above 70% does it want to evade being OHKO'd by Ice Shard).
Personally I have been bold with how ''ban worthy or busted'' NU mons have been because we have adapted to most of them pretty well(Emboar, Delphox, Vanilluxe, Vika you name it anything from S/A- did be up for grab in this, some even wanted virizion gone early on and that is somewhat funny for it's speed ''limitation''/sweeping capasity being held back after just 1 KO), it's just that you still see some of them returning and they in this case hit much more than I did like to admit. While Sneasel's main issue is the fact it's frail and doesn't have much opportunity thanks to it's shitty opportunity giving type the weakness to Stealth Rocks. But it still has plenty of opportunity to take advantage off(weak special attackers, support mon and that so tempting double switch into Sneasel after forcing your opponant to play preservative) if not it will take that Rotom-Mow Volt-Switch/Xatu U-turn/Silvally Parting Shot and ride that to victory. Loved it through all this gen, not 100% if I have time to get the patience or time to get the battle requirment but I am fairly certain what my vote did be.
 
#4
I never like to comment on suspectsat least pre-laddering but this is one I definitely been itching and been on the fence on. There’s no lie that Sneasel is one dimensional and has one set with the same moves every time but how it had warped the metagame around it is a little bit ridiculous. Mons even just weak to pursuit drop like one or two VR rankings (sigilyph, slowking, etc) despite being actually very decent in this current meta if not against our razor clawed fiend. Whenever I look at building a team you realize that there’s a severe lack of switchins for sneasel and the few that exist dread being knocked (vaporeon, lix) and often force mons that would much rather have like an LO or leftovers recovery to run a shitty resist berry. It’s also rather shitty that the few moms that DO have the fortune to outspend it w/o a scarf are weak to shard (scep, whimsi, accelgor takes a ton) It’s similar in vein to Weavile’s influence in UU where if your team isn’t completely pursuit proof, it will do serious work. I don’t think it provides a necessiarily an important positive impact on the tier either. AV raticate-alola and houndoom traps a decent amount of the same mons and maybe JUST maybe there’s a reason to use Absol. While it’s not a black and white decision to keep or remove Sneasel, simply put, ~8/10 games it feels as if the Sneasel player has a definite upper hand vs one w/o it so pro-ban on me. Also forgot to add; it can flinch many would be counters with icicle crash which is bs in its own right so take that w/ a grain of salt.
 
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#5
From what I have played of NU since circa late SuMo, Sneasel has legit always been something I have had to ensure I could deal with in some way or another. While not necessarily restricting in terms of building, ensuring you have a way of dealing with it is a must, or you'll find yourself struggling mightily against it.

While Sneasel certainly has prominent checks (Emboar, Steelix, Mega Audino to name a few), most of these checks either a) can't switch in too many times, or b) can switch in with relative ease, but hate losing their item because of Knock Off. It's always been this way, to be frank: you are the Sneasel player, you see opponent has something that can switch-in, so you Knock Off the item. The only real check I can think of off the top of my head that doesn't care about Knock Off is Mega Audino (suppose defensive Silvally as well, but no reliable recovery is really sucky), and even then you are risking flinches from Icicle Crash.

So, what has changed recently to make Sneasel even more prolific? As said before, the rise of Zangoose has propelled the utility of Pursuit even further than it was before, allowing Sneasel to trap ghosts such as Mismagius and Rotom for Zangoose. The rise of new Defoggers such as Sigilyph and Rotom-C also benefit Sneasel, as it can easily deal with them (note that while Rotom-C is by no means a new top-tier threat, I find not as many are Choice Scarf in favor of not getting locked into Defog).

While I don't personally believe Sneasel is overbearing on team-building, nor do I think there are a lack of checks to Sneasel, I do believe Sneasel's ability to neuter its defensive switch-ins with Knock Off and it simply thriving to great extents in the current meta do place it solidly at the top. I am very much on the fence as to whether or not Sneasel is unhealthy, but I do believe getting rid of Sneasel would benefit the tier greatly.
 
#6
Sneasel takes out even the bulkiest mons like jellicent and weezing, a big gratitude to its goat status is pursuit, therefore i think Sneasel should be banned
 

Earth

RED AUDI, FRUIT PUNCHIN
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#7
i think sneasel has been the #1 threat in the metagame lately. many people don't seem to understand its impact on the viability of psychic and ghost pokemon in general thanks to pursuit. furthermore, it's able to fit on every playstyle because the trapping support it provides teams is invaluable, and keeps pokemon which would normally be very annoying in check, like haunter and sigilyph.
it also happens to be a great partner for terrifying normal set-up mons like type: null and zangoose, since it's able to easily remove their ghost-type checks and counters w/ pursuit once again.
sometimes sneasel's presence alone can force people to play in an awkward way in fear of being removed by sneasel, this is especially evident when seeing how scarf haunter and delphox try to avoid clicking their Ghost / Psychic-type STAB moves when possible.
overall, sneasel gives players way too much power to dictate matches with ease, invalidates entire typings, and supports some of the most dangerous pokemon in the tier; it has a huge negative impact on the tier's teambuilding and battling, therefore im definitely pro-ban right now.
 
#8
i think sneasel has been the #1 threat in the metagame lately. many people don't seem to understand its impact on the viability of psychic and ghost pokemon in general thanks to pursuit. furthermore, it's able to fit on every playstyle because the trapping support it provides teams is invaluable, and keeps pokemon which would normally be very annoying in check, like haunter and sigilyph.
it also happens to be a great partner for terrifying normal set-up mons like type: null and zangoose, since it's able to easily remove their ghost-type checks and counters w/ pursuit once again.
sometimes sneasel's presence alone can force people to play in an awkward way in fear of being removed by sneasel, this is especially evident when seeing how scarf haunter and delphox try to avoid clicking their Ghost / Psychic-type STAB moves when possible.
overall, sneasel gives players way too much power to dictate matches with ease, invalidates entire typings, and supports some of the most dangerous pokemon in the tier; it has a huge negative impact on the tier's teambuilding and battling, therefore im definitely pro-ban right now.
While I agree Sneasel is a good trapper, it certainly isn't the best at trapping. I'd argue stuff like Houndoom/Spiritomb/Skuntank/almost any Dark type with Pursuit could fulfill the role you just stated, because all of them punish Ghost / Psychic usage. You could say Sneasel offers a lot more in addition to Pursuit which is what makes it a top-tier Pokemon and is the reason of its usage, and that's the point where we'd agree.

What makes a Sneasel ban appealing is the speculated rise in viability of certain Ghost- and Psychic-types, such as Sigilyph, Delphox and Haunter and an easier time teambuilding, without having to prepare for its fantastic STAB combo, strong priority and Knock Off / Pursuit support. This viewpoint you have covered well so I wouldn't want to repeat too much of what's already been said.

The main point I want to make is that the negative sides of Sneasel being banned should also be taken into account. First of all, offense loses one of it's main ghost answers - while there are others as I have pointed out, none come close to overall utility provided by it. It offers strong priority which helps offense versus Pokemon that are fast and have coverage that's good enough to dismantle it, such as Whimsicott. Also, its Knock Off helps with chipping away at balance while its Dark typing helps with Scarf Delphox, which has a lot of room vs offense. Not to mention, it also helps versus the Pokemon you mentioned as great threats in Type: Null and Zangoose, knocking the Eviolite or revenge killing with Ice Shard, respectively.

Sneasel has found usage on stall as well, mainly for Xatu which is a menace to the playstyle since the ORAS days, but also provides a good check to other threats to stall like Sigilyph and weakened Toxicroak, while also providing a way around the general passiveness of stall. Balance also has a spot for it, mainly for softening opposing balance/stall cores, easing the matchup vs offense and providing a good revenge killer for different balance breakers such as Z-move Delphox and Virizion.

I have tried to present the qualities of Sneasel and what roles it filled in the metagame. However, it also has exploitable weaknesses. Firstly, the introduction of Z-moves made Knock Off spamming not as profitable, since setup sweepers such as Toxicroak, Klinklang and Aromatisse can use almost any of its attacks to set up, and depending on the team composition, decide the game right then and there. Not to mention the rise of viability of Silvally formes whose Memory cannot be knocked off as well as good Fairy types that reside in NU - Whimsicott, Audino and Aromatisse. Secondly, while it does offer significant support to the aforementioned Normal-types, teams whose only method of checking them are having a faster Ghost-type can hardly be thought of as not being weak to them. Another big point is Sneasel's frailty. For it to successfully trap something, the player who uses it must, almost always, choose a Pokemon to sack, and many Ghosts have an alternative way of hitting it. Couple that with its weakness to Stealth Rock, and the reliability of its trapping decreases.

To top it all off, it's not that strong to begin with. Base 95 Attack backed with a Choice Band hits decently hard, but nowhere near the levels of other hard hitters such as Medicham. That implies that well-built stall and balance have almost foolproof ways of beating it, or at least checking it - Pyukumuku, Scarf Emboar, Steelix, Vaporeon all come to mind. Due to its speed and the fact it has good priority, it naturally has a much better matchup versus offense, but again, offense has ways of checking it, either by using Emboar, Houndoom, Z-move users or utilizing priority of its own.

As you might have guessed so far, I'm convinced Sneasel should not be banned. It has found a good place in the metagame for it and it's surely a threat to prepare for, hence it's S-tier status. However, it's downsides can be taken advantage of by any playstyle, without losing the ability to cover other Pokemon this tier has to offer, which, for me, makes it not being worth banning.
 
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Martin

Viability doesn’t exist
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#9
I’ve always been an advocate for using a very liberal banning process as opposed to a very careful+conservative one to prevent a tier settling in an unbalanced state like has happened in OU, but no matter what way I look at this suspect test I simply can’t agree with banning a Pokemon which is, in my eyes, perfectly balanced for the sake of an argument as idiotic as “it traps sometimes and is a good Pokemon.” As fun as it is to look at Sneasel as a trapper and immediately point out cores like Sneasel+Zangoose, Sneasel+Passimian, Sneasel+Type: Null etc. as well as the way Sneasel functions on balanced and defensive teams, I simply don't see Sneasel as some unhealthy threat in the NU metagame. Sure, it's a very good Pokemon which is a hugely powerful asset to offensive and defensive teams alike, but unhealthy? I'm not so sure about that. While I have admittedly cut down the amount that I play recently, I do feel like I understand enough about the general environment of NU and, more specifically, the matter of both using and facing Sneasel in practical settings to comment on this Pokemon.

The range of consistently-trapped Pokémon (“consistent” meaning from a healthy position) realistically consists mostly of Psychic- and Ghost-type Pokemon (not a very big range, and in fact something I’m going to draw a parallel to Magnezone in the current state of SM OU as well as Tyranitar both currently and historically, considering the role is the same but with different targets while having a very comparable degree of potency relative to both in their respective environments). For defensive teams, this means that Sneasel can remove major threats like Calm Mind Delphox, Nasty Plot Mismagius, Sigilyph and Xatu from the picture without much fuss. For offensive teams, it means that non-Colbur Psychic- and Ghost-types can be removed for attackers like Medicham, Passimian and Zangoose. This isn't exactly anything unique to Sneasel, but the added speed it has at its disposal separates it from the also-frail Houndoom, which is useful for trapping Pokemon like Twinkle Tackle Delphox/Missy which otherwise impact the dynamic of the encounter due to Houndoom's reliance on Sucker Punch in matchups like these. The argument you could make here is that Sneasel encourages 50:50s with its added speed and that it is, as such, uncompetitive; I don't jive with the idea that the mere act of restricting counterplay through trapping is inherently uncompetitive, and even if I did it doesn't really function any differently to Houndoom in that regard at all outside of a few exceptions. Doom is still faster than Rotom (the next fastest common Ghost/Psy after Sigilyph) while actually faring marginally better in the matchup due to its immunity to Will-O-Wisp vs. Colbur Berry variants and its lack of reliance on Knock Off for a strong Dark-type STAB.

Even if you take Houndoom out of the equation, its reliance on Choice Band to net the kills its aiming for, combined with how easily its trapping attempts can backfire when taking the possibility of Colbur Berry and, in the case of targets that are bulky enough to avoid the KOff KO, Z-crystals into account, make it very, very managable. While it's easy to scapegoat the abundance of Colbur Berry onto Sneasel, I'd like to direct your attention to Pokemon like Hitmonlee and Passimian, which necessitate Colbur Berry for a lot of Pokemon who want to consistently check them, as well as Knock Off in general (i.e. not only on Sneas/Passim/Hitmon) as other very major reasons for the item's abundance, and I'd argue that key trapping targets that Sneasel has over Houndoom, as well as bulky Ghost- and Psychic-types in general, would continue using the item irrespective of the presence of Sneasel. And this is before you consider the large number of highly consistent Pokemon that use Sneasel for free setup in the process–just looking down the A ranks you have Mega Audino, Klinklang and Slowbro, all of which turn a choice-locked Sneasel into a liability every time it tries to mindgame something. In fact, every single one of its attacks barring Icicle Crash is easy to punish for non-resistance-based reasons; and then there are more matchup-oriented teams which love being given opportunities by Sneasel, namely Trick Room/Sticky Web teams and teams which use a non-Eggy OTR Pokémon (e.g. Aromatisse) as their preferred cleaner.

While a Pokemon which either isn't choice locked or has an array of consistent moves on its set has a handful of options at its disposal to minimise the impact of the momentum lost when giving its opponent a free, uncontestable switch, Sneasel is both dependent on Choice Band to perform its role consistently and will almost always be locked into one of Pursuit (40 BP unboosted) or Knock Off (65 BP unboosted) after a "trapping 50:50;" if this is the case, it not only makes me begin to question whether the event in question is commonly a true 50:50 as opposed to a tunnel-vision 50:50 (when people take an event in isolation and assume it's a 50:50 as opposed to considering the scope of the turn on what follows), but it also means that if it doesn't succeed in removing something early on, the impact the trap will have on the game will diminish versus teams versus any reasonably built team both because trapping with Sneasel isn't really that much easier than setting up a situation where they can win off of the Sneasel trap and because it is very easy to engineer a scenario that means the Sneasel player comes out in a lose/lose position whether it traps successfully or not. In order to attain a successful trap, Sneasel needs to be provided an opportunity, whether that is a Psychic lock from Delphox, a timely allied faint, or a well-timed double switch/U-turn in order to ensure that it is on the field against the correct Pokemon at the correct time, and in a match where the teams are of roughly equal calibre and in a roughly balanced matchup the game state at the end of the crucial early-game stage will favor the player who performed better when taking the conditions of the matchup into account, and as far as I'm concerned as long as the Pokemon does not violate this condition it is not unhealthy. It’s just another threat that you see on team preview and have to account for in your long-term strategy, and I don’t see any issue being presented by Sneasel that is particularly more pressing than the other potential issues that you could present.

If people believe that Sneasel+Zangoose is unhealthy, I do not believe that the results of this suspect are going to have an impact on Zangoose. In my admittedly limited ladder time since the suspect ladder went up (I have no intention of going for reqs here because I have no intention of playing any more Pokemon at least until the next usage shift), I have found Zangoose+Houndoom to be almost exactly as potent as Sneasel+Zangoose. To me, this highlights that if there is any issue here it is Zangoose: not the trapping support that is run with it. This isn’t me advocating for a Zangoose suspect, as the time to do that isn’t in the middle of another suspect, but before you go and vote to ban Sneasel please consider that the metagame simply does not improve very much with the latter removed from the picture; banning it does not reduce the brokenness of its teammates, and banning it doesn’t realistically achieve much beyond nerfing defensive teams slightly. I don’t really know why I spent so long on this post when I’m kinda reaching the end of my tether with competitive mons as a whole anyway, but I fundamentally disagree with both the the suspect test at hand and the logic behind it, which is probably why I’m making this overly long, probably-very-bad post.
 

GunGunJ

El patrón del mal
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#10
Hi, guys. After reading the arguments that were exposed above I really think that the community is looking at Sneasel in a wrong way. Let me explain why: I understand, and agree as they are true, all the things that have been said, such as: 1-Sneasel is a Pokémon that make Psychic and Ghost-types worst as he can trap them. 2-Sneasel makes Pokémon such as Type: Null and Zangoose (and the underrated Munchlax) better. 3-Sneasel fits in every playstyle. Ok, Yes, all those things are 100% true... but does that make a Pokémon, talking in general, Broken?

Lets see. Sneasel can win a game by his own? No. For example, Meloetta and Barbaracle, could win a game by themselves, and you could not do anything about it and they didnt give the tier anything in exchange. I dont think that a Pokémon has to win a game by himself to be considered a broken and unhealthy presence, No, I am not saying that, what I think is: what is the thing that Sneasel do that turn him into a super good mon for NU? I dont see anything. This Pokémon is, in my opinion, actually healthy for the metagame and I am going to make a list of things that support this:

1-Xatu: it helps every single team to Pursuit Trap/Icicle Crash Xatu, a Pokémon that DOES NOT ALLOW you to setup hazards. I mean, we are talking about a Pokémon that only because it exists you CAN'T do something. You cant click a move because a Pokémon is in the other team, so your opponent is winning the game until you kill Xatu, as he has hazards and you don't (if you dont have your own Xatu). And you can say the same about Sneasel and the Pokémon he traps, as you can double in any moment and try to kill the Ghost/Psychic type. But there is a big diference. First of all, Delphox for example is not force to switch-in, it can be Scarf and OHKO Sneasel. In top of that Sneasel has to take rocks damage if they are up, which means 25% and if you don't switch in the right moment you basically lose your Sneasel, which means that Sneasel is not like Dugtrio for example, that is (sometimes) a mindless Pokémon, with Sneasel you need to basically always make the right play.

2-Big monsters: it stops very dangerous Pokémon that, without him, can basically destroy a lot of teams. Lets name a few: Virizion, Delphox, Mismagius, Dodrio, Braviary, it can kill Sceptile with Ice Shard in a late game, same with Rotom. So we are talking about a Pokémon that protects us against dangerous threats.

3-Bad->Good: it make better another Pokémon, some people say that it is not healthy... I don't agree with that. I am happy that Sneasel exists as I can use Munchlax more effectively. I can use Zangoose and destroy my opponent if I have the opportunity. There are several Pokémon that are better because of Sneasel, and, at least for me, that's no being broken.

4-There are people saying that we can use AV Alolan Raticate or Houndoom to trap Xatu/Ghost types, common guys... Two things happen we this:
  • They both, Houndoom in particular, lack the power to effectively Pursuit trap something, and they can die before doing their job. (for example Mismagius can kill Houndoom and dont care about Pursuit).
  • This two Pokémon (or another that you can suggest) do not help the tier as Sneasel. Do they stop Virizion? Are you thinking on revenge killing Dodrio with a Houndoom???? Are they coming with clutch Ice Shard in the last turn vs Sceptile. No, they are not.
Lets see some calcs about the possible trappers if Sneasel gets banned:
252 SpA Mismagius Twinkle Tackle (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Raticate-Alola: 242-286 (83.1 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Delphox Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Raticate-Alola: 220-261 (75.6 - 89.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


As we see it fails to do its job because you would have to guess if he is staying in or not. And in Delphox case Sucker Punch does not even kill.

252 SpA Mismagius Twinkle Tackle (160 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Spiritomb: 282-332 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Delphox Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Spiritomb: 258-304 (87.7 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


Spiritomb can also pressure Mismagius and Delphox with Sucker Punch, but if you don't guess if you opponent is staying in or not you lose you Spiritomb for nothing.

In all cases we can see that we can fail to trap our opponent effectively as we are slower than him and we die to a Zmove and can get burned in Mismagius case.

252+ Atk Raticate-Alola Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Xatu: 98-116 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- 8.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Spiritomb Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Xatu: 138-164 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


This are the big ones in my opinion. This two Pokémon do not kill Xatu if it attempts to switch out.
If you believe that X+Sneasel is unhealthy because of the latter, let me ask your something: have you considered that the guilty is the former? I do not expect you to see the things as I do, but I really think that Sneasel helps this tier, I am not saying that without him we are going to be in a hole and several Pokémon are going to be broken, I am saying that Sneasel's presence puts everything in its place, which means that without him we will have a tier where setup rocks is going to be more difficult and threats as the mentioted above will have a better shot in general. That being said I am voting Not Ban.
 
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#11
Hi, guys. After reading the arguments that were exposed above I really think that the community is looking at Sneasel in a wrong way. Let me explain why: I understand, and agree as they are true, all the things that have been said, such as: 1-Sneasel is a Pokémon that make Psychic and Ghost-types worst as he can trap them. 2-Sneasel makes Pokémon such as Type: Null and Zangoose (and the underrated Munchlax) better. 3-Sneasel fits in every playstyle. Ok, Yes, all those things are 100% true... but does that make a Pokémon, talking in general, Broken?

Lets see. Sneasel can win a game by his own? No. For example, Meloetta and Barbaracle, could win a game by themselves, and you could not do anything about it and they didnt give the tier anything in exchange. I dont think that a Pokémon has to win a game by himself to be considered a broken and unhealthy presence, No, I am not saying that, what I think is: what is the thing that Sneasel do that turn him into a super good mon for NU? I dont see anything. This Pokémon is, in my opinion, actually healthy for the metagame and I am going to make a list of things that support this:

1-Xatu: it helps every single team to Pursuit Trap/Icicle Crash Xatu, a Pokémon that DOES NOT ALLOW you to setup hazards. I mean, we are talking about a Pokémon that only because it exists you CAN'T do something. You cant click a move because a Pokémon is in the other team, so your opponent is winning the game until you kill Xatu, as he has hazards and you don't (if you dont have your own Xatu). And you can say the same about Sneasel and the Pokémon he traps, as you can double in any moment and try to kill the Ghost/Psychic type. But there is a big diference. First of all, Delphox for example is not force to switch-in, it can be Scarf and OHKO Sneasel. In top of that Sneasel has to take rocks damage if they are up, which means 25% and if you don't switch in the right moment you basically lose your Sneasel, which means that Sneasel is not like Dugtrio for example, that is (sometimes) a mindless Pokémon, with Sneasel you need to basically always make the right play.

2-Big monsters: it stops very dangerous Pokémon that, without him, can basically destroy a lot of teams. Lets name a few: Virizion, Delphox, Mismagius, Dodrio, Braviary, it can kill Sceptile with Ice Shard in a late game, same with Rotom. So we are talking about a Pokémon that protects us against dangerous threats.

3-Bad->Good: it make better another Pokémon, some people say that it is not healthy... I don't agree with that. I am happy that Sneasel exists as I can use Munchlax more effectively. I can use Zangoose and destroy my opponent if I have the opportunity. There are several Pokémon that are better because of Sneasel, and, at least for me, that's no being broken.

4-There are people saying that we can use AV Alolan Raticate or Houndoom to trap Xatu/Ghost types, common guys... Two things happen we this:
  • They both, Houndoom in particular, lack the power to effectively Pursuit trap something, and they can die before doing their job. (for example Mismagius can kill Houndoom and dont care about Pursuit).
  • This two Pokémon (or another that you can suggest) do not help the tier as Sneasel. Do they stop Virizion? Are you thinking on revenge killing Dodrio with a Houndoom???? Are they coming with clutch Ice Shard in the last turn vs Sceptile. No, they are not.
Lets see some calcs about the possible trappers if Sneasel gets banned:
252 SpA Mismagius Twinkle Tackle (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Raticate-Alola: 242-286 (83.1 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Delphox Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Raticate-Alola: 220-261 (75.6 - 89.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


As we see it fails to do its job because you would have to guess if he is staying in or not. And in Delphox case Sucker Punch does not even kill.

252 SpA Mismagius Twinkle Tackle (160 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Spiritomb: 282-332 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Delphox Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Spiritomb: 258-304 (87.7 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


Spiritomb can also pressure Mismagius and Delphox with Sucker Punch, but if you don't guess if you opponent is staying in or not you lose you Spiritomb for nothing.

In all cases we can see that we can fail to trap our opponent effectively as we are slower than him and we die to a Zmove and can get burned in Mismagius case.

252+ Atk Raticate-Alola Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Xatu: 98-116 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- 8.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Spiritomb Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Xatu: 138-164 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


This are the big ones in my opinion. This two Pokémon do not kill Xatu if it attempts to switch out.
If you believe that X+Sneasel is unhealthy because of the latter, let me ask your something: have you considered that the guilty is the former? I do not expect you to see the things as I do, but I really think that Sneasel helps this tier, I am not saying that without him we are going to be in a hole and several Pokémon are going to be broken, I am saying that Sneasel's presence puts everything in its place, which means that without him we will have a tier where setup rocks is going to be more difficult and threats as the mentioted above will have a better shot in general. That being said I am voting Not Ban.
I think a lot of your arguments here are fairly flawed:

  • I find it hard pressed to believe Xatu is some end all be all of hazard control that we need Sneasel around in order to combat. Rocks setters that can 1v1 Xatu have existed for a while now (Piloswine, Mold Breaker Drudd) and with the influx of new defog users, and the fact that Steelix has been on a downward trend for a while now, I don't think Xatu is as good as it used to be. Xatu does not prevent the opponent from "winning the game" simply by virtue of its own existence, that is a severe overstatement of its viability unless you happen to run a team incredibly weak to it. And even IF that was the case, that's no reason to keep another potentially broken element like Sneasel in the meta. The "broken checking broken" argument is a tired one that has been continuously rejected by Smogon tiering philospohy for a while now, and this case is no different.
  • Again, you bring in the broken checking broken argument, which isn't a very good one to use. And even then... Dodrio? Sceptile? Rotom? Sure, these mons definitely get better with Sneasel gone, but none of these would even come close to broken in a Sneasel-less meta.
  • While I'm happy Sneasel allows you to enjoy using Munchlax (why not just use Type: Null?), we can't base the outcome of what is supposed to be as objective a process as possible based on your personal feelings. Sneasel enables mons that otherwise would be far easier to stop to be nigh unstoppable in the late-game, and considering how much support mons like Zangoose and Type: Null need already, I definitely think it's Sneasel that's the issue here.
  • Just cuz Sneasel requires support doesn't mean it can't be broken. While it does require far more support than previously banned mons, even the likes of Barbaracle and Meloetta appreciated some problem mons being eliminated (Hitmonlee for the former, Sneasel for the latter) and whatever mons that truly didn't need support (Slurpuff comes to mind) were quickbanned a very long time ago.
  • AV Ret is buttcheeks but honestly just because Houndoom and Ret aren't as good of pursuit trappers as Sneasel doesn't mean that we should keep it. Again, if we really need Sneasel to check some mons, maybe we should look into those mons as well?
Overall I think a lot of your points are based on logic that smogon policy has outright rejected time and time again, and therefore your arguments against banning Sneasel are quite weak. If the tier really would just fall apart if Sneasel were banned (I know you claim not to believe this but I can't understand what else "Sneasel's presence puts everything in its place" means other than that Sneasel keeps pokemon that would otherwise be problematic in check) that should speak volumes about how important the need for suspects is in this tier, and that starts with Sneasel.

If it's not clear from my rebuttal of the above post, I am in favor of a Sneasel ban. Sneasel exerts insane offensive pressure thanks to its typing and attacks. Most switch-ins (Steelix, Emboar, etc.) hate losing their item and are eventually worn down by repeated Icicle Crashes. Sneasel also enables plenty of dangerous pokemon like Zangoose, Type: Null, and Medicham to be far deadlier in battle when they would otherwise require far more support to function in battle. Rocks weakness and zero defensive presence is a definite strain on Sneasel but it's not like we haven't banned pokemon with similar properties before (Yanmega) and with the influx in defog users it's easier than ever to keep rocks off the field. Overall Sneasel has just been problematic in this tier for a while now, and with being quite possibly at its strongest yet, I think it's the appropriate time to send him to the Shadow Realm.
 
#12
Alright, I feel as if my initial post in this thread was rather rushed because I did it pre-laddering and wrote it rather quickly on the phone. I've read each and every post in this thread now and kept an open-ear to each opinion anti-ban through out. Post-laddering (I got like 2650 COIL fml but will try again), I have a little bit of a more informed and organized opinion albeit a little controversial. While many harp the fact that NU is balanced at the moment and in a way, fair enough it sort of is depending on your perspective on what's balanced, teambuilding in particular is very tight and in the end, balance/fatter balance or semi-stall seems to be the only consistent and least matchup-based playstyle not as a result of just Sneasel, however because of the group of pokemon I refer to as the big 4 (Sneasel, Delphox, Emboar, Vanilluxe. DEVS? nah thats sounds stupid) that I'd argue have strained teambuilding the most in USUM NU in one way or another. Basically every NU team to just not LOSE, (not win but simply not lose, not to mention there are a lot of readily available balance breakers ready to dismantle your cores at any given time and the variety of walls you'll have to break down each time), at team preview needs to have:

1) a hard ice resist
2) a hard fire resist
3) a scarf Emboar deterrent (rocky helmet/really fat physdef waters)
4) Not to overly weak to pursuit and a knock off switch in.

This is why balance/stall I'd argue is the least matchup based playstyle due to the fact that it can actually fit all these checks and HO or more offensively oriented teams are I'd argue, hit-or-miss depending on matchup because they have a fear of being straight up demolished by any one of the select big 4. Is it okay if balance is the best style? Of course, however optimal balanced teambuilds in return are very formulaic that I would say is a result of Sneasel's existence in the tier.

Individually, at least I think none of these mons in the big 4 are overpowered by themselves, Sneasel separates itself from the pack because it can often reliably "ensure its kill" and in a way halts the development of the metagame I'd argue which causes teambuilds to be very similar in structure at times. Mons that usually would fit the mold of the listed above 1,2,3 or 4, let's say Cryogonal, Slowking, Xatu, and Froslass (I could give more examples but that's not the point), have to play at the constant threat of being trapped which in the hands of the Sneasel player has a constant advantage of forcing at times suboptimal plays in order to simply conserve their mon. I think people underestimate Froslass in particular and don't give it as much credit as it deserves simply due to the omnipotence of Sneasel in the tier because in an average matchup against Sneasel, you're at most getting 1-2 spikes and hardly getting any value from the mon. Mismagius another excellent breaker only a few select mons can wall/check is not as good as it can be because Sneasel is so goddamn good and splashable. Many of the mons listed are great even excellent in fact but just the fear of facing a Sneasel in an opposing matchup definitely deducts their consistency unlike other mons in the big 4.

Now does that mean pursuit trapping is broken? I'm going to go out on a limb here (not really) and say fuck no. Rather it's Sneasel's bag of tricks that keeps it in line of leading the metagame. Ice STAB is hard enough to switch in to but physical ice STAB with high flinch that doesn't even make contact (big deal when slaying Garbodors, Druddigons, Xatus and the like) along with ice priority (an instant stop any Vivillion sweep and similar mons) improves Sneasel's utility by ten-fold and makes almost nearly never a deadweight in a given matchup especially considering it forces the opponent to constantly be alert of its presence. Combo'd in a blistering speed tier and a very decent 95 base attack with the ability to combo with many other mons in offensive cores very well (come on like Zangoose, Delphox, Emboar, Vanilluxe, any fighting type ever, you get the idea), we have a force to be reckoned with. Pursuit has never been as easy to splash on a team because of Sneasel which is why overall it's the pokemon not the move that wields so much utility and consistent matchups across the board against all styles.

Something I think would be actually rather decent alternative if Sneasel didn't exist is Liepard which sports a great speed tier (still outspeeding the fantastic fox and mismagius although short of Froslass) and a decent attack when paired with choice band along with u-turn support. That's not to mention a myriad of more obscure mons that pursuit (houndoom, raticate, ambipom) but all these mons cannot match the all-in-one package that Sneasel provides for the average team and pursuit trapping cannot carry a mon alone.

I think a lot of people when viewing Sneasel as a threat to building by itself which admittedly is less of a deal as akin to something like Vanilluxe but rather its much in a way like DPP Breloom where its the offensive cores it forms that own the metagame almost and constant pressure of its existence it creates. It's at the same time, the best revenge killer and the best trapper in the tier BY FAR which I don't think is necessarily ban worthy in itself but its rather combination of the factors (strains of teambuilding, the invalidation of many mons, and its constant presence throughout the course of the match) listed above that make me think the metagame would actually progress in a positive way if it were to be banned. So BAN if I get around to laddering but this post is just my perspective playing the metagame and building for it.
I am never going to write a post like this again
 
#13
ok might as well get my thoughts on sneasel out in this thread since nobody on council aside from finch has posted.

at the start of this suspect i was leaning quite heavily towards no ban, because i saw sneasel as something that was @ the top of the meta but not broken enough to the point where it was unhealthy and had to be removed. however after playing more actively the past week or so i realized how the meta had shaped around sneasel w/ the advent of usm. sneasel gained the ability of threatening a lot of new defoggers (rotom / sigi / alt) along w/ doing what it did before. another key thing a few ppl have been missing out on is how much easier it is to get sneasel in w/ the current meta. the new defoggers mean that spikes are much more uncommon / its a lot easier to remove in the current meta. this means sneasel can be used multiple times a game to threaten / trap threats to its team. this along w/ knock being spammable (not as much as gen6 w/ z moves) means its much harder to check sneasel over the course of the game.

however there still is a lot of the issues that make sneasel a lot more manageable than it was before. w/ z moves + silvallys becoming more main stream it isnt as hard to switch into knock off as it was before. also w/ gen7 came a lot more sweepers that could take advantage of sneasel locking itself into suit / knock. the main ones that come to mind are aromatisse / scrafty / klinklang. a lot of teams that have issues w/ sneasel usually fail to incorporate correct counterplay vs it using stuff like sigi / rotom + set up mon that lose to it end up caving to hazards.

honestly im not to sure where i stand still and will prob end up just asking around / voting as late as possible, but im curious to see if other ppl have any other points to make bc none of the other posts in here have been all that convincing for me.
 
#14
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usage-based-tier-update-for-january-2018.3625266/#post-7643575

Qwilfish moved from PU to NU
Spiritomb moved from NU to PU
Heliolisk moved from RU to NU
Venusaur moved from RU to NU
Sandslash-Alola moved from NU to PU
Torkoal moved from RU to NU
Klinklang moved from BL4 to NU
Silvally-Steel moved from PU to NU
Smeargle moved from RU to NU
Claydol moved from NU to PU
Rotom-Mow moved from NU to RU
Medicham moved from BL4 to NU
Seismitoad moved from NU to UU
Aurorus moved from NU to PU
Dugtrio moved from RU to NU

STATS ARE FREE. These are the changes that have affected us, huge shift and guaranteed to have a major impact on the tier.
 

Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
OU Forum Leader
#15


Heliolisk moved from RU to NU
Venusaur moved from RU to NU
Smeargle moved from RU to NU
Rotom-Mow moved from NU to RU
Seismitoad moved from NU to UU

Relevant ones especially, I'd say (Drought is banned, so Torkoal will just drop to PU eventually). These are some pretty damn big changes. Obviously, Rotom-Mow and Seismitoad are two of the best Pokemon in the metagame, the former being one of the best pivots and Defoggers whereas the latter happens to be the most common Stealth Rocker and a solid defensive presence to slap onto balance and offense. It is unfortunate to see both go, but surely doors will open up to other Defog users and even the other Ground type SR Pokemon when it comes to Seismitoad departing (see: Steelix, Piloswine, Torterra, Rhydon, etc.).

As for the additions to the tier, Smeargle falling is...scary. It opens up a door for cheese hazard leads and a few other things given its insane movepool, but it probably won't be too troublesome so long as Xatu is still in the tier and we have a handful of solid Defog users. Venusaur is something I am actually looking forward to using -- I feel a number of sets will be pretty cool on it and it is nice to see a Grass come into the tier after losing one of our better ones, in Rotom-Mow. Finally, Heliolisk is going to be a bitch to deal with, but should be a nice offensive presence if it is not too much for the tier -- we'll have to wait and see how it pans out!
 

quziel

I simulate Pottery
is a Pre-Contributor
#16
Thoughts on drops, rises, and their effect on the meta:


Sun and Venusaur
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Sun is back in a big way, with the addition of venusaur which hits approximately as hard as 10 trucks, essentially acting as a victreebel with actually usable bulk, and enough speed to actually do stuff out of sun. Seriously, the thing hits so hard it ain't funny, being able to OHKO standard Altaria (+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 335-395 (94.9 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery), as well as 2HKOing Type:Null after a growth boost (+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO), which just ain't fair. PSA that Sun Whimsicott is also like, super usable, and provides incredibly useful coverage for any sun team thanks to Fairy-Typing, and its incredible speed meaning that it has no reason to swap out after Sun is done.

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Growth
- Sludge Bomb
- Earthquake
- Solar Beam

Whimsicott @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Growth
- Moonblast
- Solar Beam
- Psychic

Uxie @ Heat Rock
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Sunny Day
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock
- Filler

Liepard @ Heat Rock
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Encore
- Sunny Day


As for Venusaur outside of Sun, while Vileplume generally does defensive sets better thanks to access to Strength Sap and Effect Spore, Life Orb offensive sets are incredibly potent with Knock off allowing you to weaken many traditional defensive switch-ins such as Type:Null and Cryogonal. Its just generally a good breaker that can come in somewhat reliably on Whimsicott, aka most spammed mon in the tier, and break teams afterwards, though it loses to LO if rocks are up.


Heliolisk:
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Heliolisk @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot / Surf / Focus Blast


Shit's likely broken, and like, the tier is really unprepped for it, so rather than listing a set (though I will provide a pastebin of a very general sample set), I'm just gonna try to list some mons that block its momentum and don't die easily, and some mons that are generally good answers to most sets.


Togedemaru
Togedemaru @ Leftovers
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 HP / 248 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Wish
- Spiky Shield
- Super Fang / Zing Zap / Nuzzle / Whatever


Basically, you should be able to swap into most anything that Grass Knot or Surf Variants use, and block Volt-Switch, letting you reliably answer the mon, though Focus Blast variants just eat you. Not much more to say other than this mon was vastly improved by access to Super Fang, and does a ton of cool stuff atm, while also beating non-EQ non-HP fire Venu (sounds uncommon, but should be something you can beat) if you can force it to sleep something first.


Steelix:

I shouldn't really need to list a set, as IMO eving to actually beat the thing beyond making sure you live a Hyper Voice + Surf is not worth it, as it sacrifices just way too much offensive presence (you need 180 spdef and a +spdef nature to live 2 grass knots after rocks), but the mon resists the moves Heliolisk will likely want to spam, and doesn't straight up die to any coverage but focus blast. Note: This is not a good answer, and if you have anything on your team that lets the mon in, you need a secondary answer of some kind, or at least something that can come in on like 1-2 moves and revenges it.


Cryogonal
Cryogonal @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 116 SpD / 144 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Freeze-Dry
- Toxic / Knock Off
- Recover


Cryo is fat specially, tanks any hit but Focus Blast if you can keep it at full HP before Rocks, and can force a stalemate and eventually wear it down. not too much more to say other than hope they don't have something with pursuit they can swap into. Not the best measure cause Volt-Switch is broken, but if you can't fit anything else it can provide a nice insulator.

Really don't like Heliolisk's presence in the tier, and honestly, it could easily prove unhealthy depending on how the tier turns out.

One Final point:


Kabutops
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Kabutops @ Rockium Z
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall


This Mon's best answer just left the tier, and its excellent vs any kind of Offense thanks to the wonder of Weak Armor (well, not sun unless you play perfectly, but it at least gets one easy kill with z-stone edge and amazing speed). Set up SD, pray they're dumb enough to activate weak armor, and enjoy your sweep unless they have something like special toxicroak (even then you tank 1 vacuum wave (78% max) and KO with a +2 Z-Stone Edge).

Edit: Forgot Smeargle

Smeargle's Dumb, and webs is annoying to face.
 
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#17


Im extremely interested to see how this meta is going to adapt to the monster that is Heliolisk in NU. With the rise of seismitoad, it doesnt have to run grass knot in the tier either (gastrodon is an un-mon), so the moves that are most likely to see use are:

Hyper voice, Thunderbolt, Volt Switch, Surf, Hidden Power Ground, Focus Blast, (Dark Pulse)

The most obvious set in the current meta would be:

Heliolisk @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hyper Voice
- Surf

Now I could definitely see people drop tbolt (since v-switch is STAB anyway) for either hp ground (togedemaru mostly) or focus blast (for both togedemaru and potential rise of ferroseed to try and will heliolisk). This set would entirely be walled by ghost/grass type 'mons, like gourgeist and trevenant, and for that reason I also put dark pulse as a potential move for the lisk, as this would allow it to break through these as well:

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 177-208 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The thing about heliolisk is that it's very fast for the tier, even outspeeding one of its checks virizion, allowing it to volt switch out, putting it in range of 2 hyper voices to kill with Life Orb.

It's potentially going to suffer from Four Moveslot Syndrome, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Your opponent won't know it's whole set, and might have to scout with its check to see if helio is running the right coverage for it, meaning helio would either gain more initiative, or get more damage off.

All-in-all I see very few checks to this beast, and I deem it likely that this mon will be banned in the future: It 2HKO's the entire tier with the right coverage, and it's speed allows it to outspeed an enormous part of the tier even without a choice scarf. Have fun spamming it!
 
#18
With the new drops everyone knows heliolisk and Venusuar are pretty good but I personally want to talk about a Dugtrio set I've been using since release

Dugtrio @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Rock Slide / Pursuit / Stone Edge
- Sludge Wave

this set allows you to check at least 2 S - Rank mons in Delphox and Whimsicott and other solid mons like Haunter and Heliolisk which I find is at least notable. Dugtrio also ties for the second fastest mon in the tier so it is harder to get revenge kod by non scarf mons. I see this as a potentially good partner with Zangoose and whimsicott

calcs: 0 SpA Dugtrio Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP/ 4 SpD Whimsicott: 265-312 (101.5 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Dugtrio Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 218-257 (74.9 - 88.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I think the other two are self explanatory and I think it atleast has some merit to be used
 
Last edited:
#19
With the new drops everyone knows heliolisk and Venusuar are pretty good but I personally want to talk about a Dugtrio set I've been using since release

Dugtrio @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Rock Slide / Pursuit
- Sludge Wave

this set allows you to check at least 2 S - Rank mons in Delphox and Whimsicott and other solid mons like Haunter and Heliolisk which I find is at least notable. Dugtrio also ties for the second fastest mon in the tier so it is harder to get revenge kod by non scarf mons. I see this as a potentially good partner with Zangoose and whimsicott

calcs: 0 SpA Dugtrio Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP/ 4 SpD Whimsicott: 265-312 (101.5 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Dugtrio Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 218-257 (74.9 - 88.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I think the other two are self explanatory and I think it atleast has some merit to be used
If I'm not mistaken the only thing Dugtrio outspeeds that Dugtrio-Alola doesn't are:

- Ambipom
- Cinccino
- Dodrio
- Froslass
- Sneasel (which is probably getting the boot soon, and picks off Dugtrio anyway with Ice Shard)
- Whimsicott

Without Arena Trap, Dugtrio-Alola just seems like the better choice due to its Steel typing and its base 110 Speed still outspeeding most of the tier.
 
#20
If I'm not mistaken the only thing Dugtrio outspeeds that Dugtrio-Alola doesn't are:

- Ambipom
- Cinccino
- Dodrio
- Froslass
- Sneasel (which is probably getting the boot soon, and picks off Dugtrio anyway with Ice Shard)
- Whimsicott

Without Arena Trap, Dugtrio-Alola just seems like the better choice due to its Steel typing and its base 110 Speed still outspeeding most of the tier.
The Main Focus of my post is to examine The Drop of dugtrio and how it can be used I do find outspeeding and being able to check whims relevant enough for it to have a lil discussion I do feel that outspeeding those mons is still at least relevant because mons like ambipom and Cincinno can really annoy offense which being able to outspeed and revenge is nice
252 Atk Life Orb Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ambipom: 247-292 (84.8 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinccino: 265-313 (91 - 107.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

and to be fair I think you would only use Dugtrio on offense so I do feel that is a bit relevant but I do agree that yes Dugtrio alola is still just as good in most cases if not better if you already have solid answers to these mons
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
#21
Heliolisk is obviously going to be a very potent Volt Switcher, thanks to its Speed tier, great coverage, and unlike Rotom-Mow it has no need to rely on Choice items to maintain the most momentum. The ease of which it can spam Volt Switch largely eliminates its issue of not being unable to OHKO a large amount of Pokemon and compensates for its fraility, making entry hazards its best friend and coincidentally its worst enemy. With that said, the tier's hazard control is a lot better than what it was in ORAS, so only time will tell if it is still as oppressive for the tier.

Now this monster is what really has got me getting chills. ORAS RU taught me that lower-tiered Venusaur has pretty much the perfect stats for nearly any kind of job, especially for an offensive Pokemon; it has very powerful attacks augmented by respectable offenses, has extremely good & well-rounded bulk that is also complemented by Synthesis, and isn't even slow to boot, namely being faster than Vanilluxe. I haven't even taken the Chlorophyll Venusaur set into account yet, because it already puts in massive work with a set like this:

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow (or even Chlorophyll if you want to have a chance to ward off opposing Sun sweeper Saurs, and I don't blame you)
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
- Earthquake / Leech Seed / Knock Off

0- Atk Life Orb Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garbodor: 117-140 (32.1 - 38.4%)
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garbodor: 135-160 (37 - 43.9%)

0- Atk Life Orb Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Silvally-Steel: 148-177 (37.5 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0- Atk Life Orb Venusaur Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togedemaru: 416-494 (124.9 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Leaf Storm vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 133-156 (46.9 - 55.1%)
0- Atk Life Orb Venusaur Earthquake vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Klinklang: 127-151 (44.8 - 53.3%)

0- Atk Life Orb Venusaur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 205-242 (66.7 - 78.8%)
As an alternative to Earthquake, Venusaur can easily opt for Leech Seed which can annoy most of its switch-ins (such as Golbat or Type: Null) or Knock Off to cripple those particular two outright (still won't beat Golbat 1v1, but now Type: Null is at risk fo a 3HKO from Sludge Bomb on average), while still having decent general utility due to the limited amount of switch-ins Venusaur has. Thankfully more defensive variants of Venusaur won't have as much presence due to Vileplume's existence, but Venusaur's power and longevity (and in the case of Chlorophyll, terrifying sweeping ability) will definitely make it a frustrating Pokemon to play against.
 
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quziel

I simulate Pottery
is a Pre-Contributor
#22


Aggron @ Hard Stone
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 12 SpD / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Head Smash
- Focus Punch
- Magnet Rise

So, this set does something pretty simple, it comes in trivially on stuff like Altaria, and turns that into free KOs. Now, most people immediately go Lix, which would be bad, but you 1v1 it trivially, and even have the freedom of just hard clicking Focus Punch if you're in vs something you force out, and then you can easily use Magnet Rise to get another Focus Punch off. Even if they don't have a bulky ground, you still have an Adamant Hard Stone boosted Head smash, which does incredibly dumb stuff like just straight 2hkoing slowbro (well, 49.4 - 58.1%). Sub is for those times when your opponent can't break your sub (see lix after a magnet rise doing 10.6 - 12.8% with Heavy Slam), and you either want a guaranteed Focus Punch, or just want to be able to toss out Head Smashes with no drawbacks. Its even fairly easy to bluff Band early game, as noone knows Head Smash calcs, and Hard Stone can give the impression you do insane damage.

EVs are stolen from the Gen 4 analysis, but still serve the purpose of letting you beat base 60s, and then just shoving the stuff into bulk, which is nice. Just a fun mon that lets you punish the really passive mons like Silvally-Steel and Altaria that have been popping up, while luring in and beating all of the tier's ground types barring mudsdale and palossand.

Note: CB is probably easier to use, but Sub-Punch is more fun, and lets you pull off more hard reads.
 

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