Lower Tiers BW NU Viability Rankings

Like Treeko said, Leafeon isn't great but it isn't bad either. Leafeon can run a defensive or offensive set, but it does face competition from its other bulky grass type counterparts. Some advantages Leafeon has are great speed and some decent retaliation power. Leafeon does tend to face competition from other grass types as it is in the middle of the pack; an offensive set is typically outclassed by something such as Sawsbuck, whereas the defensive/support role is typically outclassed by something such as Vileplume. Leafeon is somewhat of a mix between offensive and defensive.

All in all Leafeon isn't that bad that it deserves D-rank.

Also no comment on Tropious because I've never even used it lol.
 

tennisace

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Here's what D-rank is: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the NU metagame, but are decent enough to justify their use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that.

Emphasis mine. So here's a thought experiment: how many similar Pokemon would I choose to use over Leafeon for each of its "niches"

Bulky Grass-type supporter:

Tangela
Serperior
Exeggutor (kinda)
Ludicolo (kinda)
Vileplume
Roselia
Torterra
Cacturne
Cradily
Jumpluff
Meganium

Physical-attacking Grass-types:

Sawsbuck
Simisage
Shiftry
Serperior
Leavanny

Chlorophyll sweeper:

Exeggutor
Sawsbuck
Shiftry
Victreebel
Vileplume

I'm pretty sure this is the definition of usable, but with no notable niche. It has niches, but it's very very very outclassed in them all. If you really want to use Leafeon, it can do ok I guess, but you'll be hard-pressed to find a role where it isn't just straight up outclassed. This is why it should stay D-rank.

As for Tropius, the same argument applies, but even moreso because the only thing that it can do (Sub Harvest stall) is completely outclassed by the same set that Exeggutor runs. The only "advantage" it has is the immunity to Toxic Spikes, but Toxic Spikes are really easy to get rid of in this metagame with Scolipede and Garbodor and Roselia and Skuntank and other good Poison-types. Also unlike Eggy is that it's about as effective an offensive presence as (insert random NUer impotency joke here). It should stay in D-rank also.
 

tennisace

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The only niche you mentioned was Wish, which off of base 65 hp is pretty paltry. The reason Alomomola is so effective as a Wish passer is because the Wishes it passes are usually more than 3/4ths the HP of what it's passing to. I can use Lickilicky if I want to combine Wish, Heal Bell, and Phazing also (though Lickilicky isn't Grass-type, you get the point). The fact that you admit the Pokemon I listed are superior in a supporting role is why Leafeon should be D-rank.
 

Punchshroom

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I still feel that Sawsbuck is the only sweeper that gives Leafeon a run for its money, as the deer shares Leafeon's attacks and has more coverage options. However, none of them have the combination of power, speed and bulk Leafeon has, making it ridiculously easy to set up Swords Dance and even Baton Pass it away if need be, while Sawsbuck has almost no chance to do so (Leavanny might be able to though, but it's still not as bulky and misses out on base 95 speed).
 
On the Tropius argument:

I've used him extensively and i can confirm that he's C-Rank material.
His SubSeed set is what makes him shines. He has Flying-Type that gives him an immunity to Ground-Types and STAB on Air Slash that can threaten the best counter to leech seed: Grass-Types, the SR weakness is not a big problem at all thanks to Harvest since he recovers his HP just when he switch in and takes the SR damage. With a bit of support that basically consist of to paralyze more opponent's pokemon that you can, he can seeds free and acting as a pseudo ParaFlincher thanks to the Air Slash 30% Flinch chances. Once he sets a sub, he's very annoy to fight.
 
Need a Leavanny vs Leafeon vs Sawsbuck comparison? You know what, I'm going to put all this stuff here so I no longer have to dump it in my analysis. It'll be here. Prepare for a loooong post.

***

First, I'll talk about Sawsbuck. Sawsbuck is an amazing Pokémon on offensive teams as it has a variety of useful moves, and STAB on both Normal and Grass moves, which I consider quite useful. It also has some coverage moves like Nature Power (which also avoids Sucker Punch) and Megahorn.
Chlorophyll and Sap Sipper are awesome abilities, but I feel, with Base 95 being the current standard, that Sawsbuck has its main niche on sun teams, but it still competes with Leavanny and Leafeon even there as they have Chlorophyll as well.

It can also set up Swords Dance, but it has to utilize it itself, because if it runs Baton Pass it will be outclassed by Leafeon who has more bulk and raw power behind its Grass STAB.
This is also a flaw of Sawsbuck; Horn Leech is fairly weak and fails to 2HKO Alomomola as well as to OHKO Golurk if Sawsbuck has no boosts (Golurk can run 252 HP and 4 Def EV's, ensuring Jolly Sawsbuck can never OHKO Golurk.) Horn Leech does however, have the advantage of recovering some of Sawsbuck's health while attacking, so Life Orb and hazard residual damage does not hurt it as bad as it would otherwise.


This all being said, Sawsbuck is a good standalone sweeper, but its downside is very troublesome. Sawsbuck is very frail and as such has trouble finding time setting up if they can hit hard. Sawsbuck's frailty and lack of useful resists also means it has trouble utilizing Synthesis well. It can, however, break a wall or two.

In a nutshell, Sawsbuck can defeat the most threats because of its coverage, but is also the most frail. As a result, Sawsbuck's niche is being a Swords Dance sweeper, preferably in the Sun.

Leafeon, is the physically bulkiest of the three. It also has the hardest hitting Grass STAB, but it has no secondary STAB to fall back upon and as such, will often run a Baton Pass set. Leafeon can easily Baton Pass Swords Dance boosts and has enough bulk to do it later again. It can either utilize Substitutes to pass along in the last moveslot, or Synthesis to recover. Note that with Substitute and Wish Leafeon will not utilize the Life Orb but Leftovers, and as a result, actually fail to have as much initial power as Leavanny, but as I said before, Leafeon has more chances to set up Swords Dance and to pass them than Leavanny has.

Wish can be passed alongside the Swords Dance boosts if you feel gutsy, but again if you are Wishpassing as well, you are in need of Leftovers or residual damage will stack on you. Also, Leafeon has low HP, making Wishpassing not as useful, especially as Leafeon rarely invests in HP. Leafeon prefers investing in Attack as well as Speed, as HP investment will detract from Attack even further, causing obvious power issues. As such, I feel Wish is not worth it on Leafeon.

Sweeping on its own is something Leafeon rarely does because it most likely runs only Leaf Blade, and even if it doesn't Drifblim and even Haunter wall it and smother it with their Super-Effective STAB moves. Leafeon's coverage moves, X-Scissor and Return, also don't provide much utility for it, and worse, Leavanny gets STAB on the former and Sawsbuck on the latter.

Leafeon has no movepool, as as an offensive supporter it is outclassed by Leavanny, whereas at a defensive supporter it is outclassed by half of the Grass-types in the tier, most notably Vileplume and Meganium but numerous others as well.

In a nutshell, Leafeon's niche is running a Baton Pass set.

Leavanny also has its niches over the former two.
Leavanny's offensive niche is STAB X-Scissor alongside STAB Leaf Blade. This means, coming from Leavanny's Base 103 Atk, that Leavanny 2HKO's Musharna as well as Alomomola, and OHKO's Golurk. Whereas Sawsbuck can 2HKO Musharna with Megahorn, it fails to 2HKO Alomomola or OHKO Golurk. Leafeon fails to 2HKO Musharna with X-Scissor. Leavanny has many more coverage moves than Leafeon and actually a similar number compared with Sawsbuck, but however, these coverage moves are much weaker than Sawsbuck's, and all four miss out on Steel-types or useful coverage otherwise (Shadow Claw, Return, Aerial Ace, Poison Jab). However, Shadow Claw means that Leavanny can deal with Haunter and Drifblim unlike the other two.

That being said, Leavanny pulls off the offensive supporter (Leaf Blade + X-Scissor + Synthesis + Heal Bell / Magic Coat) better than Leafeon because of typing as well as STAB on X-Scissor. Leavanny also has slightly more overall bulk and certainly more bulk you're going to put to use due to the useful resists (and most notably, 2 ×4 resists against common types in NU), and lack of weaknesses to priority moves (outside of Ice Shard, but Piloswine is the only notable user of that move).
Sawsbuck is too frail to pull this off as well as that it misses out on Heal Bell. Other Bugs in NU have no access to Synthesis, Magic Coat and Heal Bell, allowing Leavanny to differentiate itself from its fellow Bugs.

Leavanny does however have some problems especially when it opts to not to run these moves, and those are missing out on Base 95 speed as well as no significant bulk, but however, Leavanny's typing allows it to set up boosting moves like Swords Dance on a myriad of defensive threats. Leavanny however, misses out on useful coverage outside of Shadow Claw and Sawsbuck's STAB on Return, and as such, Sawsbuck outclasses it as a Swords Dance sweeper unless you are really desperate for STAB X-Scissor (but note that Sawsbuck has Megahorn, and as such can run Grass/Bug/Normal coverage as well). It misses out on the physical bulk of Leafeon as well as having a Stealth Rock weakness, and as such is outclassed as a Baton Passer.

As a Bug-type Swords Dance sweeper, Leavanny is outclassed by Pinsir because Pinsir has moves like Earthquake, Stone Edge and Close Combat, thouth Leavanny also has a small advantage; unlike Pinsir, Leavanny can OHKO Alomomola at +2.

One thing is not touched upon, and that is the fact Leavanny can be a decent Agility sweeper as it hits just hard enough to not need any boosts in power (ensure hazards are up though, as if it would be a Riolu), utilizing the obvious Agility and Dual STAB and a coverage move of choice, most likely Shadow Claw (If you go for Baton Pass, you are reaching Ninjask territory).

In short, Leavanny's niche is running an offensive support set.

***

Now, where to put them? There are numerous problems these three Grass-type Pokémon share and as such aren't mentioned before; neither of them gets past Torkoal, Weezing or Golbat. Also they all have problems to be standalone sweepers, as they all have numerous checks and counters. Sawsbuck has the least amount of checks and counters but the others can do their job even if they are still in play.
They share Chlorophyll, making the decision not any easier if you opt to run weather.

As standalone sweepers, Torterra might be better than those three as well considering it has significant bulk, EdgeQuake as well as Wood Hammer, and it hits pretty damn hard.

***

I think I am done with my rant. Did you read it? Good. I am still not done with my post.

About Tropius: SubSeed + Protect + Air Slash and SitrusHarvest. Is that niche good enough for C-rank? I am not so sure, but I can tell from my experience how annoying this thing is to face. Especially if you don't have Ice attacks - and sometimes even if you have.
 
Aasgier said:
About Tropius: SubSeed + Protect + Air Slash and SitrusHarvest. Is that niche good enough for C-rank? I am not so sure, but I can tell from my experience how annoying this thing is to face. Especially if you don't have Ice attacks - and sometimes even if you have.
Eggy does it better and the meta is too offensive for either of them to run SubSeed
 
Eggy does it better and the meta is too offensive for either of them to run SubSeed
Tropius has more coverage thanks to Air Slash that allows him to cripples opponent's Grass-Type that are immune to Leech Seed. If you use the proper EV spread and give to Tropius the appropriate support (simply Paralysis) he became very annoying to stop, not counting that he as an immunity so he can switch more simply.

Also the offensive-oriented meta didn't mean a lot, since once Trop sets a sub he can start to annoying even offensive team
 
Hmm, Backed off a fairly bad Special Stat, I can hardly say it can cripple an opponent with a weak move like air slash. And otherwise, Tropius is outclassed in what it does and has very exploitable weaknesses. However, its overall bulk is decent which is imo its only saving grace for me to say it is even viable for D rank and Jynx running rampant doesn't help its case (Nor does being demolished by the likes of swellow or anything running ice punch/ice beam.) I propose D as it only really has one niche which is only moderately effective (Chlorophyll is an option but it is even further outclassed by multiple pokemon) which is kinda a description of a D-rank pokemon.
 
Tropious really has several flaws that make it almost unusable. I would go through all of them, but I would just be repeating the above comments virtually. So I will just summarize it in a sentence or two.

Despite slightly more decent offences than Megnaium, it still fails to do any relevant damage. It's got good bulk but not really enough to overcome it's crippling 4x ice weakness which means any Water type or anything carrying ice will face no competition. it's ability's are outclassed, and to top it off, mag gets Dual screens to improve it's bulk.

i think it is time to move onto another subject Pokemon in that case.
 
The purpose of Tropius is to come in on a thing that he can wall, set a sub and starting leech seeding the opponent, the myriad of pokemon that can actually use an ice move are leech seeded when they destroy Tropius' sub and gets another turn of leech seed thanks to protect, and if you predict the switch and seed them with a sub up, they are crippled forever since you can sub-protect when they try to destroy your sub and since this is an offensive metagame, the most part of sweepers are without recovery so they are crippled forever unless the team packs a Wish-passer.

The weak point of Tropius are principally bulky Sap Sipper users like Miltank and Icicle Spear users like Piloswine. Grass-Type and Ice-move users are less dangerous for a sub user like Tropius.

In any case, i expressed my Tropius opinion and counter-opinion on his weak point a lot, so i'll stop talking about him and i will see what will be the moderator opinion.
 
I think Chance Breaker said it best.

I have noticed that Gorebyss is only B-rank. This is comes to me as surprising due to its really strong sp.atk stat and swift swim (It's actually very easy to get up rain) let it sweep the field (It's basically gameover if it gets its shell smash in.) So here's the question, is a pokemon that only requires one prequisite provided by an ally (8 turn damprock) really only a B rank when it is able to sweep entire teams with rain boosted surfs and rocket past swellows (Not even not even electrodes can keep up when it goes for a speed nature) I think it deserves an A-rank at least for it's low risk; high reward sweeps (Not pushing for S-rank since it generally needs someone else to set up that rain though thats never hard to get)
 
Nominating Charizard to be dropped to B Rank. Charizard, sure, it's a very potent sweeper once you set up Sun, and it also has a massive base Special Attack to begin with, but it has one weakness that makes it hindered - Stealth Rocks. Stealth Rocks are a HUGE problem for Charizard, and any other Stealth Rock weak Pokemon, due to the fact that there aren't many spinners in the NU tier, let alone commonly seen spinners. Let's face it, the only spinners used commonly in the NU tier are Wartortle and Armaldo. Now, Armaldo is a very commonly seen Pokemon in NU, being the 5th most used Pokemon in May. Wartortle, was at the 28th rank. Now, that isn't exactly low, but it still isn't super common (5 percent usage isn't incredibly high, close to dropping to PU in my opinion.) Back to Charizard. Charizard pretty much runs a Solar Power set in almost every scenario, making it a monster if Sun is up. However, if Rocks are up, Charizard will lose half it's health on the switch, making it susceptible to getting revenge killed by fast Scarfers with a Rock type move and/or a strong enough attack to kill Charizard.

B Rank Pokemon: Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the NU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

That describes Charizard perfectly, incredible Pokemon in the NU tier, but has flaws making it take a lot of support to have success with.
 
Nominating Lickilicky for A-rank. Lickilicky is the best special wall in NU bar none. Go take a look through A-rank. Who in their is a potent special wall? Maybe Musharna, but Lickilicky does a better job being easily one of the best support pokemon. Lickilicky doesn't pass quite as big wishes as Alomomola, but they are still really large and get the job done, and he also gets heal bell unlike Alomomola. I can't think of any other mon other than the eeveelutions in NU that get both wish and heal bell. It can also run a bulky SD set, and with cloud nine, it can help stop a possible Ludicolo sweep. The only thing that seems to be keeping Lickilicky from S-rank is it's typing and the fact it can't use cloud nine with wish and heal bell.
 

WhiteDMist

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Nominating Charizard to be dropped to B Rank. Charizard, sure, it's a very potent sweeper once you set up Sun, and it also has a massive base Special Attack to begin with, but it has one weakness that makes it hindered - Stealth Rocks. Stealth Rocks are a HUGE problem for Charizard, and any other Stealth Rock weak Pokemon, due to the fact that there aren't many spinners in the NU tier, let alone commonly seen spinners. Let's face it, the only spinners used commonly in the NU tier are Wartortle and Armaldo. Now, Armaldo is a very commonly seen Pokemon in NU, being the 5th most used Pokemon in May. Wartortle, was at the 28th rank. Now, that isn't exactly low, but it still isn't super common (5 percent usage isn't incredibly high, close to dropping to PU in my opinion.) Back to Charizard. Charizard pretty much runs a Solar Power set in almost every scenario, making it a monster if Sun is up. However, if Rocks are up, Charizard will lose half it's health on the switch, making it susceptible to getting revenge killed by fast Scarfers with a Rock type move and/or a strong enough attack to kill Charizard.

B Rank Pokemon: Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the NU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

That describes Charizard perfectly, incredible Pokemon in the NU tier, but has flaws making it take a lot of support to have success with.
I don't really have an opinion of what rank Charizard belongs in. I disagree with your arguments though. First, Rapid Spinners aren't the only way to prevent Stealth Rock; Taunt users and Mold Breaker Sawk are all pretty common Pokemon that can prevent hazards from easily being set up. You are also wrong about Solar Power Charizard being the most common set; according to the May usage moveset statistics, Blaze was the ability on Charizard 69.6% of the time. Life Orb and Leftovers were the most common items, while Roost was used on Charizard around 50% of the time. While you are correct in the fact that Stealth Rocks really hinder Charizard, generally Charizard is a late game cleaner anyways (meaning it shouldn't take damage more than once). Revenge killing isn't exactly the most effective argument when most Pokemon have to deal with the same problem; Charizard also have an excellent base 100 Speed that outpaces the gold standard of base 95. Now, all of this may or may not mean it is a B-rank Pokemon, but I feel like you should research your arguments a little more. Sorry for the harshness, but I had to call you out on this.
 

tennisace

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Charizard for B with terrible argument
Have you actually played with Charizard lately? You don't need a Spinner for it to function, since the best sets are arguably the ones that have Roost. In addition, Rapid Spinning in NU is pretty terrible, and most times you're better off just preventing the opponent from setting up hazards in the first place (which, by the way, Charizard is pretty damn good at). Charizard is fortunate in that it has many different ways of taking advantage of the opponent, mostly because it forces a ton of switches. There really aren't many Pokemon that want to switch into a LO Charizard, and most of them are easily lured with HP Grass (or Power Herb Solarbeam if you're into that). In addition, the scarf set can actually take advantage of SR, by using Blaze and getting its HP down to below 50%. Charizard pretty perfectly fits in A-rank, especially the part where it says "and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits." Charizard's flaw is its Stealth Rock weakness, but it's outstanding traits are its reliable healing move, huge power, versatility, and excellent speed tier.

Lickilicky for A using a bad argument
Just because there aren't many dedicated special walls in A doesn't mean there needs to be one in A. The fact is: most of the dedicated walls in this meta are very easily taken advantage of. Lickilicky has no resistances to switch in on, gets wrecked by the common Fighting-types in the tier, and just kinda sits there and takes damage. Heck, I'd rather use Audino, since Regenerator means that it doesn't have to Protect to heal itself to pass a Wish, and doesn't give the opponent a totally free turn to boost its stats or heal. Lickilicky is a solid B-rank Pokemon, in that it can be an ok catch-all special wall, but walls in general aren't good right now, while pivots (Alomomola) and tanks (Musharna) are better.
 
Just because there aren't many dedicated special walls in A doesn't mean there needs to be one in A. The fact is: most of the dedicated walls in this meta are very easily taken advantage of. Lickilicky has no resistances to switch in on, gets wrecked by the common Fighting-types in the tier, and just kinda sits there and takes damage. Heck, I'd rather use Audino, since Regenerator means that it doesn't have to Protect to heal itself to pass a Wish, and doesn't give the opponent a totally free turn to boost its stats or heal. Lickilicky is a solid B-rank Pokemon, in that it can be an ok catch-all special wall, but walls in general aren't good right now, while pivots (Alomomola) and tanks (Musharna) are better.
Yeah, the argument about lack of special walls in A was a rather poor aregument, but I still feel it's worthy of A rank. It has a good sub SD set, which plays off really well in the guise of the standard special defense set. It also does get dragon tail for phazing, throwing offensive teams trying to gain momentum for a loop. Like I said, normal type is disapointing, but it still works due to the fact the only thing that can hit it super effectively from the special side is HP Fighting. It isn't like heal bell is required, I've used toxic before while giving a defensive Misdreavus heal bell. It worked well, since many mons do expect the wish, they come in and try to set up, only to be met with a toxic, and then I can choose my mon of choice to deal with it, or dragon tail it out if I happen to be running that. And a catch all special wall isn't bad with things like jynx and haunter running around.
 

Audiosurfer

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For the most part, SubSD Lickilicky is overshadowed by SubBU Braviary. Also, a good offense player won't be completely screwed up by Dragon Tail spam (if they have a Substitute user they might even set up on it). Even though it can take hits on the special side, NU is a very physical tier as well, so it's not as if it will take hits indefinitely. While Toxic is a nice way to hit opposing walls, many offensive mons can still set up and take advantage of Lickilicky. The fact that a common defensive set uses moves like Wish, Protect, Dragon Tail, and Toxic only exacerbates this flaw since these are moves that give free turns for your opponent to do as they wish, so they can set up and sweep your team (Dragon Tail doesn't give a free turn like Protect and Wish do but it's very weak and easy to set up on). Also, Jynx 2HKOs Lickilicky with Focus Blast (LO Attacker) and has a chance to do so with SR up using the Choice Scarf set, so Lickilicky isn't nearly a reliable enough way to check it to justify all of the flaws it has. So yeah, this basically echoes what Tennisace said but Lickilicky is a B rank mon.
 
Gorebyss should stay in B-Rank. It just isn't as good as it was on its earlier stages in NU. With the rise of Base 95 Scarfers, Kangaskhan, as well as the fall of certain defensive Pokemon that it can set up on, it does not sweep as easily as it could back then. It also has a harder time setting up on the more offensive-inclined metagame, where the likes of Scolipede and other strongmons run rampant. Jynx can also handle the standard set pretty well, though Signal Beam variants are getting more common to pass by it. Gorebyss is by no means a bad Pokemon; it just struggles to make a significant impact on the metagame as of now.
 
Changes:
Leafeon up to C from D

sry tennis


In regards to Floatzel and Simipour. I agree that they should be in the same rank. But is that B or C? I'm leaning towards B on them as of right now, but I can be persuaded either way. I'd like to see more discussion on it for now!

Tropius also remains D for now :(
 
For the most part, SubSD Lickilicky is overshadowed by SubBU Braviary. Also, a good offense player won't be completely screwed up by Dragon Tail spam (if they have a Substitute user they might even set up on it). Even though it can take hits on the special side, NU is a very physical tier as well, so it's not as if it will take hits indefinitely. While Toxic is a nice way to hit opposing walls, many offensive mons can still set up and take advantage of Lickilicky. The fact that a common defensive set uses moves like Wish, Protect, Dragon Tail, and Toxic only exacerbates this flaw since these are moves that give free turns for your opponent to do as they wish, so they can set up and sweep your team (Dragon Tail doesn't give a free turn like Protect and Wish do but it's very weak and easy to set up on). Also, Jynx 2HKOs Lickilicky with Focus Blast (LO Attacker) and has a chance to do so with SR up using the Choice Scarf set, so Lickilicky isn't nearly a reliable enough way to check it to justify all of the flaws it has. So yeah, this basically echoes what Tennisace said but Lickilicky is a B rank mon.
2HKO'd by jynx focus blast? Hm, focus blast still has shaky accuracy, but that is interesting to note. The main advantage I've noticed from my use of sub SD Lickilicky is its surprise factor, since almost no one runs it. I can see B-rank a bit better now, but the thing has just seemed to work on and fit into to many teams of mine. You can probably run a physically defensive set since its only weakness is fighting, but alomomola does that better :p Oh well, to bad it can't get cloud nine on its support set to wall the ever present ludicolo, then it would have more utility
 
My point isn't so much gorebyss setting up shell smash. Gorebyss's true power comes from the immediate boost from rain. All gorebyss needs is for someone to set up rain for it and it just destroys everything with rain boosted LO Surfs/Hydro Pumps. Such a low risk high reward pokemon can't be worth B no? Personally, rain works well as it can fit signal beam where shell smash would be to take care of Jynx if found troublesome (I still keep SS because Gardevoir, nuff' said.) And on the subject of the 95 scarfers, the most prominent being primeape, he is unable to KO Gorebyss due to its passable physical bulk meaning that Gorebyss can perform a maximum of three attacks with primeape enough (Which is half a teams worth of KO's, not bad.) Gorebyss definitely has trouble setting shell smash, but that's not where it shines. It's strength is being a rain sweeper, the exeggutor of the rain, to wash away the opponent through sheer force.
 

tennisace

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If you're solely using Gorebyss as a Rain Sweeper, then it is unfortunately outclassed by both Ludicolo and Seismitoad, both of which outspeed it, have comparable power, Dual STAB that cover some of their weaknesses, and have better bulk. Literally the only reason to use Gorebyss is Shell Smash, which is one of the rarest boosting moves in the game.
 


Lickilicky is certainly a cool Pokemon, but I feel like it deserves its spot B-Rank. Many people have already expressed why they feel Lickilicky is too underwhelming to make it to A-Rank, but I want to emphasize a point that tennisace touched upon—Audino's advantages over Lickilicky.

I've been using an Audino / Alomomola core for a little while now, and there's no way that I would ever replace Audino with Lickilicky. While Audino may have a tad less bulk than what Lickilicky has, it more than makes up for this with Regenerator. This ability single-handedly makes Audino a superior Wish-passer in NU, as unlike Lickilicky, Audino can pass its Wish off to another Pokemon on the team without having to resort to staying in an Protecting in order to heal itself. Even more importantly, hazards are much less effective in wearing down Audino for this same reason. Right now, having a way to shrug off that damage that hazards cause is invaluable, with Spikes-stacking Scolipede on so many teams. Audino even has Thunder Wave and Heal Bell, and because it doesn't need to stay in and Protect in order to heal itself, it can manage to run both on the same set.

Pretty much everything else has been said about Lickilicky. SubSD Lickilicky is generally outclassed as a stallbreaker and set-up sweeper by SubBU Braviary, a Pokemon that can even set up on the likes of Rock Blast Golem (unless the Golem is exploiting a PS bug, *cough*Raseri*cough*). Braviary performs this role better thanks to its greater Speed, more reliable recovery, and greater immediate power than what Lickilicky has.

Lickilicky is by no means a bad Pokemon, but I do strongly believe that it deserves to remain in B-Rank.



The debate for which ranking Floatzel and Simipour deserve is an interesting one. Both of these Pokemon are quite fast, and both of them are great offensive Water-types. The issue that I have with them is I would typically rather use a bulky Water-type, such as Carracosta or Seismitoad, rather than taking a more offensive approach. Both of these Pokemon, for example, may lost out on Speed, but they more than make up for it in bulk. Water-types just have so few weaknesses that they are often much more difficult to exploit. A fast, frail Water-type can't make use of this. To be honest, I haven't used either of these Pokemon for a while: I don't know when the last time I used Floatzel was, and the last time I used Simipour was about a month ago. I'd definitely like to hear more debate on these two from players who have used them more recently. They kind of got lost in the debate on Gorebyss and Lickilicky. Right now, I'm leaning more towards C-Rank, mainly because I don't really see a reason to use them over something bulkier, although it probably wouldn't be too hard to convince me that they deserve B-Rank since I haven't used them much lately.
 
I've used Floatzel quite a lot recently, and while it is rather frail, it makes up for this in its diverse movepool, great Attack and fantastic Speed stats. Bulk Up + Baton Pass is a fantastic strategy if you know what you're doing, as it allows Floatzel to support its team as well as be a late game sweeper if need be, as its 115 base Speed stat and 105 Attack stat boosted by Bulk Up can put a dent in just about anything. I personally don't use Floatzel as a Baton Passer, however, as I usually always have need for Taunt in its sets, as seemingly everyone playing NU thinks that Floatzel is good set up bait. Taunt shuts down walls with weaker attacks, allowing Floatzel to either Bulk Up, Switch an item onto the opponent (Flame Orb is my item of choice) or just simply switch out without having much to worry about.

Because of Floatzel's amazing speed, it's able to hit nearly every major threat in the tier before they can hit Floatzel back. Here's a few of the calcs to demonstrate how hard Floatzel can really hit some of the more prominent attackers in the tier, without Bulk Up and with a Jolly Nature:

252 Atk Floatzel Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 334-394 (123.24 - 145.38%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Floatzel Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 169-201 (62.36 - 74.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Floatzel Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sawk: 144-169 (49.48 - 58.07%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Floatzel Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 126-148 (48.09 - 56.48%) -- 89.06% chance to 2HKO

After Stealth Rocks or a single layer of spikes, all of these are 2HKO's or better, meaning that you if you make the mistake of switching in on Floatzel, you'd better be ready to take a massive hit. Of course, these are all mon's that you wouldn't really switch into a hit, but Floatzel wasn't really meant to be a wallbreaker in any case. I say Floatzel should be allowed in B-Rank. And if that means letting Simipour in there as well, then I suppose I should say I've also had good experiences with her as well.

I'm not much of a "pro" metagame player to be honest, and some of you might not really agree with what I'm saying, and that's fine. But after some trial and error, and a lot of Floatzel usage, I've found that he's a fantastic Pokemon and almost always pulls his weight, as long as his teammates are up to snuff and you're using the right set. I'd love some feedback on the points I'm making so I can better my arguments, because right now I don't think I'm really doing Floatzel justice.
 

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