Metagame NUBL Retest Discussion (Cofagrigus Banned)

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Eternally

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Read this hyperlinked thread for information on the NU-BL Retest Process. Our first retest will be: Camerupt-Mega, which will be allowed on the NU Ladder for one week. After that week, the NU Council will vote on whether or not Mega-Camerupt should be given a formal suspect test, which will allow the public to vote on whether or not it should be unbanned and allowed in NU. Camerupt-Mega was quickbanned following a chaotic tier shift. It's insane raw power, perfect coverage, and unique typing coupled with Stealth Rock make it a potentially broken, offensive behemoth. Is the volcanic camel too hot for NU to handle? Or are it's common weaknesses and pitiful speed enough to keep it under control and make it a healthy addition to the tier? Discuss below, and make sure you've played with it first in order to formulate as best of an informed argument as you can. Phase 1 of this retest will end on Sunday, May the 5th, at 11:59pm EST time.

Tagging Marty to unban Camerupt-Mega on the NU Ladder. Thank you!
 

Punchshroom

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I've been testing Mega Camerupt for the past couple of days, and I believe I can offer a preliminary verdict for now.

It's in my opinion that, outside of Trick Room, Mega Camerupt operates as a better defensive Pokemon than an offensive wallbreaker. Mega Camerupt actually has a very useful defensive typing, allowing it to check things including but not limited to: Rotom, SubRoost Vikavolt, Delphox, Comfey (needs Toxic/Heavy Slam to truly check), Togedemaru, Accelgor, Weezing, and most notably Magmortar. Being able to offensively check or exploit these Pokemon is an incredibly massive boon for balance teams to have, and I foresee SpD MCamerupt being a mainstay set in the future, perhaps even overtaking the offensive set. RestTalk variants can work decently but it pairs naturally well with Vaporeon so it can afford other moveslots.

Not to say that MRupt is a mediocre offensive attacker, but compared to some of the wallbreaking alternatives we have, it honestly feels a bit lackluster. Its abysmal Speed leaves it with both Speed and bulk issues (or sacrificing power to maintain either of the two) which leave it less appealing compared to other faster and/or bulkier, sometimes even stronger wallbreakers. On more than one ocassion, I've been wondering whether I'd have been better off using the likes of Rhydon, Incineroar, or Alolan Exeggutor for my holepunching needs that also offer much better defensive bulk/resistances and thus superior general utility, or maybe I'd rather use super dangerous wallbreakers with less compromising Speed tiers, like Magmortar, Pangoro, Medicham, Mega Glalie, etc. Heck, even Aggron and Aurorus have crossed my mind for wallbreaker options that heavily punish the bulky Poisons that I've been using my Mega Camerupt to terrorize.

I feel that offensive Mega Camerupt is best utilized on Trick Room builds, providing them a non-Choice-locked holepuncher that also offers a much needed solid Comfey check whereas Trick Room lets MRupt actually afford to trade with other attackers that it doesn't outright OHKO, not to mention its attacks hit hard enough that even perfect pivoting will leave you pretty bruised regardless. Outside of TR, I feel offensive MRupt ends up trying too hard to balance between having the necessary Speed to outrun things that it should be killing (outspeeding Steelix is mandatory, outrunning Palossand is highly recommended, trying to outrun things like Rhydon or even Druddigon/Vileplume might require too hefty an investment), wanting enough bulk so that resisted/uninvested attacks don't just end up 3HKOing you anyway, and of course the power to OHKO as much as you can since MRupt is invariably trading blows with most whatever it kills and missing out will hurt even more.

Tl;dr: offensive MRupt variants are inherently held back by their combination of bad Speed and unimpressive uninvested non-recoverable bulk (that or reliance on TR) to be far from a broken threat. Defensive MRupt is pretty dope tho and should be a healthy notable addition to the tier's balance teams.
 
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Yoshi

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I can safely say that Mega Camerupt isn't a broken Pokemon by any means. Whether or not it is good or bad is a different story, but I have seen little to no evidence that Mega Camerupt would be broken for NU. A lot of people have been talking about Trick Room but I haven't even bothered with that because even with Mega Camerupt and Slowking being better, Trick Room offense still isn't all that great, especially when you're facing playstyles other than offense. On top of that, I will agree that Mega Camerupt is probably more threatening defensively than it is offensively. Not that it isn't super strong, its just that oftentimes I find it hard to get in on the field to do heavy damage in a lot of match ups, especially since it has no recovery. Let's go more in depth with some of these negatives with a list:
  • Low Speed
  • Unreliable recovery
  • Ground weakness
  • Limiting building
To talk about the low Speed a bit, Mega Camerupt is super slow. It isn't Ferroseed slow, but it would be one of the slowest Pokemon if it dropped back into NU boasting Base 20 Speed. This is slower than even Slowking, and while it will probably not want to out speed Slowking in most situations simply for the fact that death will ensue if you leave it in, it is important to note as this goes in hand with the lack of recovery. Mega Camerupt being slow would be a lot less of a noticeable if Mega Camerupt got a move like Slack Off, perhaps. In a lot of match ups I find Mega Camerupt in, it would be incredibly helpful if it was able to recover off the damage it takes before it is able to get up Stealth Rock or perhaps launch off a powerful attack. Hell, most attacks Camerupt has been taking in my experience have done more than half anyway, but perhaps that isn't as big of an issue as I am making it out to be. Still, Mega Camerupt would actually do great with recovery if it were to stay away from super effective attacks, at least from what I gather.

Something I don't see many people talking about is the Ground-type weakness. I think that this is a pretty bad thing for Mega Camerupt, especially as a Stealth Rock user. It pretty much loses to Steelix and Rhydon. In the Steelix match up, you have to choose whether or not you want Stealth Rock or to break the Steelix's Sturdy, as Earthquake is doing over half to Mega Camerupt. While Steelix can always Stealth Rock, it is usually a better play for them to get the heavy damage off so as to not let Mega Camerupt in without repercussions to then fire off a deadly attack. (Druddigon is synonymous with Steelix in this example as well). For Rhydon, the same logic applies, except that Rhydon actually has a very high chance to OHKO Mega Camerupt. I feel as if Mega Camerupt didn't have a Ground-type weakness, it would have a much better match up as a Stealth Rock user.

Finally, something that I noticed in the literal first game I played with Mega Camerupt is how limiting Mega Camerupt is in building. Not in the way Vanilluxe was where it would limit the opposing builder, but in the fact that it limits YOU as a builder, sort of like Mega Abomasnow. I faced quziel on the ladder and we both had very similar teams. One of the reasons behind this is that Mega Camerupt isn't a flying resist (just to note, Seismitoad and Druddigon also share this problem, but its still important to note for Mega Camerupt as well). The two most common Stealth Rock users are Flying resists so that means you're going to have to run either Aerodactyl, Togedemaru, or Rotom for a consistent Flying resist, as Heliolisk isn't great defensively (although neither are Aerodactyl and Togedemaru, honestly). For Mega Camerupt, you'll also want a Water resist that won't have severe repercussions from facing Water-types. This is actually an easy task depending on the build route you take, but can be difficult in some scenarios, especially since most Water answers still struggle with Water-types in some capacity. Even though those two things don't seem that bad, they are kind of big in the builder when you don't want to build the same non-Trick Room Mega Camerupt team every time (or at least avoid similarities).

I haven't tried out defensive Mega Camerupt to discuss that front so perhaps I will edit this post with information on that in the future. EIther way, though, I don't think Mega Camerupt is broken by any means. Some people might argue that unbanning it would add an unhealthy Pokemon to the tier because of how it promotes Trick Room builds, but I don't see Trick Room becoming super prominent with the addition of Mega Camerupt. In fact (and I'm positive they exist), I haven't seen a Trick Room team yet with Mega Camerupt, or, if I have, it wasn't a notable build by any means. I think a week's time is definitely hard to gauge if Trick Room has become more popular or not as a playstyle because of Mega Camerupt, so I think having a suspect test would give more time to see if that would increase in usage. Overall, I see no harm in having at least a suspect test, and even in this less-than-a-week's time, I already know I would probably vote unban on Mega Camerupt.
 
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In my opinion it renders balance really hard to pull off and while I agree that the prominent slowking annoys it, it can be coupled with pursuit, beeing forced to run slowking (av) to check it, might not be that good and it has (as mentioned) a very solid typing, that enables it to find many switch in opportunities, which kind of makes up for the bas speed. You can play it in TR of course but it isnt obviously intented to be a sweeper rather than a breaker which punches wholes for sweepers in the lategame. Furthermore keep in mind NU has many of these pokemon, which can break most of the tier very effectively and are strong powerhouses but not as much utility as camel exhanged for more speed, polarizing the meta into more offensive or more stall oriented builds, otherwise balance will have problems to keep up defensively and be overwhelmed pretty easily (if we assume balance has 3 defensive slots to work with at best, 2 of which are often used for hazards which more often than not less compressive with exceptions like steelix though there is the option to include one offensive hazard part to broaden the variety of defensive options to cover as many threats as, possible). It also has interesting tools with growth (especially in the sun) to overwhelm many of its defensive checks and if its speedcreeped for slowking under the sun it effectively can most likely beat every wall, though I agree that this can be harder to pull of and sun in general seems to be quite match up based rn. The pre-Mega ability comes in quite handy with also a little bit more speed, causing it to have the ability to play around some threats better (taking hits from stuff like steelix and giving it the chance for emergency rocks) and it synergizes well with many pokemon of the metagame like heliolisk, vaporeon, vileplume etc. I think it is going to be a bit much for the Tier, at least very good although it is prone to chip damage and has to be played carefully and it is kind of prediction reliant, as most waters are faster than it and can switch in and attempt to heal on the forced switch out, sapping away momentum and if you fire blast lets say a golbat into a vaporeon they can double back onto a forced switch out, even if it epowers it is just to slow to pressure it more effectively, albeit vaporeon is more the exceltion, than the rule.
 
The camel certainly has its fair share of checks and a good amount of counterplay in the tier. This most notably comes from some of the bulky waters in the tier such as Vaporeon (Heal Bell variants are particularly strong as a counter) and the increasingly popular AV Slowking, although it has a better chance against teams using mons like Seismitoad or Blastoise.

M-Camerupt is abysmally slow to the point where if one opts for a Modest nature, it only would take a few EV's in speed for mons around base 50 to outspeed, such as mons like Druddigon, Vileplume, Piloswine, and some mons in the 40's running some speed like Rhydon and Dhelmise. It's slower than even the slow pokemon in the tier, and attempting to outspeed them is a risk (since they can easily opt to ev with a bit of speed) with serious drawbacks in power if using a Timid nature and/or bulk, which the camel needs all it can get of since it will be moving second most of the time. While the defensive set does sound interesting and should offer some good utility and ability to check some big threats in the tier such as the aforementioned Magmortar, I think only the offensive sets would really be anything to consider as criterion for maintaining a ban at the moment.

The camel seems doomed to be used on Trick Room teams because of its above described characteristics, but I am excited for this possibility for the tier. TR as an archetype feels largely absent imo, and M-Camerupt is perfectly suited for it and could breathe some life for TR. While I haven't laddered particularly high with the team, I've found that a pretty effective core of M-Camerupt + TR Jellicent/Slowking + TR Dragonium A-Exeggutor to be quite effective. M-Camerupt is however rather restrictive on building as mentioned earlier, and while it can threaten Xatu, in a TR team I feel that it will usually prefer to attack or Toxic than get up rocks and thus it can be difficult to fit a better rocker on the squad.
 

Rabia

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Glad to see this retest happen. I didn't think Mega Camerupt was broken last time it dropped, and if anything it's less broken now. The other people in this thread have already summed up the arguments I had better than I could, so just wanted to share a team featuring Team Magma's mascot. It's a Trick Room team, and in Trick Room Mega Camerupt is absolutely brilliant. It has incredible power, good overall bulk and fantastic neutral coverage with just its STABs, leaving you free to do whatever you want with the other 2 slots. It also outruns the entire tier bar Ferroseed in Trick Room. My team's done pretty well so far - 22 wins 3 losses. You're welcome to use it if you wish, and constructive criticism is welcome.



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I'll try to be polite: this team is not good. Most of these Pokemon you're trying to run on Trick Room simply are not ideal for the archetype/are running terrible sets, such as Weakness Policy Slowking and Defog + Trick Room + Calm Mind Comfey. You also have 8 Attack EVs for some reason on Mega Camerupt? The main appeal to Mega Camerupt on Trick Room is as a Stealth Rock setter that helps the archetype deal with Comfey, which otherwise comfortably smacks it; it's for good role compression. I'm impressed with your success with this team nonetheless, but I really struggle to see how this team... works? Like, I don't see how you ever plan on activating Weakness Policy, nor do I see the point of Druddigon on this team, let alone the archetype.


Anyhow, I haven't had much experience with Mega Camerupt, but it seems mostly fine on paper and from the bit I've used it; I like the addition of another Magmortar/Vikavolt check with that specially defensive RestTalk set, and it's a very cool Stealth Rock user given it lacks all of the passivity issues things like Steelix and bulky Druddigon bring. I've made this comparison a bit, but it's like Magmortar in that once it's in, there is a high chance a soul is being claimed. I do worry a bit about just how strong this is in comparison to Magmortar though; Mega Camerupt possesses better defensive utility thanks to its Ground typing, which lets it pivot in for literal free on Rotom and in general most Electric-types, giving is more opportunities to wallbreak. It's also a LOT stronger than Magmortar, which makes dealing with it defensively dicey at times; Vaporeon is straight up 2HKOed by Earth Power, and this forces 50/50s in which Vaporeon wants to recover health with Wish but also can't really risk getting bopped by the camel. Hell, the only Slowking set that actually deals with it well currently is Assault Vest, which doesn't get 2HKOed even with Stealth Rock up.

The biggest drawback I think to Mega Camerupt will be its terrible speed, which really limits what it can do after it has claimed one. It's pretty much always forced out if your opponent makes a smart double or just maintains offensive pressure, which in a way promotes smart playing and is a good thing. It has sounded like we're gonna get a suspect test on this Pokemon, so hopefully I can better formulate my thoughts during that, but I definitely advise you to not sleep on this threat lol.
 
I'm still working through my thoughts on M-Camel, but as of right now I don't believe it is a healthy addition to the tier. Some quick thoughts that I'll try to expand on later:

Pros:
Stealth Rocker
Unique defensive/offensive typing
Ridiculous power
-0 SpA investment Fire Blast hits as hard as 252 SpA LO Delphox for reference
(0 SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pangoro: 280-331 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
(252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pangoro: 282-333 (84.9 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO)

-Some quick offensive Camel calcs

(252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 288-340 (69.5 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
(252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 237-279 (51 - 60.1%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
(252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 176-207 (58.4 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Cons:
-Abysmal speed, it WILL get outspeed
-Restrictive teambuilding (its unique typing while offering cool resists mean you need to bring specific checks that most rockers usually cover)

Slow dumb wallbreakers are nothing new to NU, (say hi Pangoro/M-Glalie/A-Exegg/Vikavolt/Clawitzer), but I fear that M-Camel will restrict teambuilding too much. It's really not difficult to pivot into thanks to the plethora of voltturn mons in NU and its bulk/typing means that it can come in on quite a few pokemon and just devastate a team. The best options to deal with it rn are: AV King, Vap, Seismitoad, Blastoise, and Aerodactyl. Of these, AV King is the best answer, EP does 34-42 which gets easily healed off by Regenerator; however, even SpDef Vap is 2hko'd by EP which means it's a 50/50 if it wishes or Scalds and also means you have a free turn every time Vap comes in. Seismitoad/Blastoise take a ridiculous amount from EP, limiting themselves to one switch in and Aero is obviously in the same boat. I don't feel that TR builds will be 'broken' although this is a notable boon to them, my concern is simply that teambuilding will become much more restrictive. If you lack one of these pokemon, you fail to check it from my experiences.

As for how it comes in, its typing means it's able to block volt switches, come in on bulky grasses/Poison types like Vileplume/Golbat/Weezing/ Garbodor that attempt to check your fighting types (hi Passimian!). Another fantastic partner I've found is Scarf Togedemaru which lures in other Togedemarus, Incineroars, Rotoms, Steelixs, and Vikavolts.

Maybe I'm wrong and it won't be as restrictive as I'm fearing, but I'm seeing everyone else declare it a nonissue and I'm relatively concerned. We've just received one very threatening wall breaker recently, and throwing Camel into the Mix so soon worries me.
 

Eternally

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NU Leader

Read this hyperlinked thread for information on the NU-BL Retest Process. Our next retest will be: Cofagrigus, which will be allowed on the NU Ladder for one week. After that week, the NU Council will vote on whether or not Cofagrigus should be given a formal suspect test, which will allow the public to vote on whether or not it should be unbanned and allowed in NU. Cofagrigus was banned during the final stages of NU Beta, back in 2017. It was banned due to a large number of factors, mainly its impressive bulk, ease of set up (particularly with the help of Veil and Screens stacking), and power in conjunction with Ghostium-Z. Since then, Aurora Veil has been banned, and we've got a bigger pool of Ghost-type resistances including; Mega Audino, Incineroar, Pangoro, and Heliolisk. Will this be enough to make Cofagrigus a balanced part of the tier? Or will its offensive prowess, titanic defensive utility, and fantastic sweeping potential warp the tier around it again. Discuss below, and make sure you've played with it first in order to formulate as best of an informed argument as you can. Phase 1 of this retest will end on Friday, May the 31st, at 11:59pm EST time.

Tagging Marty to unban Cofagrigus on the NU Ladder. Thank you as always.
 
Here comes a thought.

I was initially supportive of a Cofag resuspect in the tier because I thought that enough had changed to handle it. Boy. Incin and Pangoro scare it out, but both lose to Passimian, the premier Fighting type? Lisk loses to Scarf Pass as well. Things like Comfey and Aromatisse that can possibly revenge kill inside of Trick Room struggle vs SpDef Plume and ProToxPhox (and Aromatisse is not that great anyway). Cofag has a lot of good teammates that can support it, and itself provides a Fighting and Normal-immunity and a ridiculous defense stat. Its support options include Wisp (w Hex), T-Spikes and Haze (which you can waste a Z slot on). It also gets Pain Split as semi reliable recovery.

Offensively, Ghost is one of the best types in the game, and Ghost+Fighting is pretty much unresisted in NU. OTR is a big threat, and due to its pretty decent 58/145/105 bulk it can find plenty of opportunities to set up (as compared to Aromatisse which just sucks in comparison). 95 SpAtk isn't that great and still misses out on alot of kills, but that's not a problem since the rest of your team can chip away at your opponent until Cofag can sweep successfully. Admittedly, I haven't played too many games and have yet to face opposing Cofag, but from my own use I believe that it's too much for the tier. The only good chounters I found so far are like Mega Audino, and Pyukumuku I guess? SpDef plume gets OHKO'd by Never-Ending Nightmare at +2, offensive Braviary only 2HKOs 1% of the time and can take 2 HP Fightings while SpDef Bulk Up handles it decently well. It can set up on Passimians (Knock Off is a 3HKO at best); Hyper Voice-locked Lisk, which makes you think twice before clicking etc. Mega Dino switches in, but fails to do much aside from Toxic and spam an attacking move, while Cofag does pitiful damage back. I'm rambling.

This mon is ridiculous, having a few niche counters that are difficult to fit on teams outside of stall. As much as I like to see it back in the tier, I think it still is too much for NU to handle, and I'm pretty sure most people would agree.

Also, 252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 246-290 (76.8 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

poh

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Now that Cofagrigus won't get resuspected, I don't see a reason to take another look at the other 2 mons on the slate (Kingdra and Ribombee).

The tier hasn't gained any good Fairy checks since it got banned and base 124 speed with multiple good sets is just too much for NU.
As for Kingdra, Comfey became a popular mon since it got banned but Kingdras typing and bulk gives it plenty of set-up opportunities on the rest of the tier. Kingdra can run physical as well as special sets which makes it even harder to check. To top it all off, Kingdra is hard to revengekill too due to its bulk and typing (only 2 weaknesses).

Imo Bruxish looks less fearsome than the above but i might be the only one with the same opinion lol.

I'm glad the NU council decided to retest some mons but after seeing Mega Camerup and Cofagrigus not making the cut, I can't see the remaining mons on the slate being re-introduced into the tier permanently.
 
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